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Is being an avoider a marriage deal breaker?

(179 Posts)
mulranno Tue 30-Oct-12 08:53:43

Been with my dh for 26 years have 4 kids. He is very mild mannered, intelligent and a devoted (but ineffectual) father. We get on fine when life is rosy but when life is tough his modus operandi (?) is head in the sand, avoider.

I get left to research and make all of the hard complex decisions which leaves me feeing both over loaded and soley responsible which is very pressurizing -- he is still like a teenager when it comes to money, finacial decisions, emotional/educational decisions around the family. He chooses not to get informed so I am unable to sense check anything with him or get any support or direction or feel that anything is a joint decision. He shows no interest in what I am trying to achieve.

On the emotional/health side when I had severe pnd after my 3rd child in 3 years he just chose to spend all of his time out of the home -- he was out 4 nights a week at either football, tennis, committee meetings etc. When he was home (Fri and Sat nights) he drank very heavily, fell asleep and was "not available" as he was just so distant and introverted with major hangovers.

I was left to manage all 3 babies alone night after night which caused me to be really angry. We went to relate as I resented this behaviour but they "framed" it as his way of coping so I forgave him. However we have since had 3 further major crises - another pnd, devastating sudden death of my mother and a most recently a major financial crisis which has endured for 18 months and requires house and schools move to resolve. The last two have tipped me back into depression. Again on all of these crisises he has not "been there" in any capacity. I have had to grieve alone (he was quite flippant about my grief) and have spent the last 18 months sorting overdrafts, loans, remortgages, school appeals, bailing out his company etc with zero interest or support from him. Additionally 2 of our 4 children are very challenging. My teenage son is aggressive and hits me whilst my husband stands by and watches, my daughter is sen also with severe bahavioral issues and her school and emotional health are another demand of my time. I am going thru a major depressive episode at the moment and exhausted. I just feel what is the point. Time and time again he doesnt step up. I feel disrespected and neglected

DIYapprentice Tue 30-Oct-12 08:59:40

Oh you poor thing. How awful for you. I just couldn't be with someone who wasn't there for the difficult times. It's easy to be there for good things, it is a sign of someone's worth how they deal with the difficult times. I think the Relate counsellor was a bit crap, TBH. So what if that was his way of coping - his way of coping was NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!! His way of coping was ALL ABOUT HIMSELF. Dealbreaker for me I'm afraid.

HotDAMNlifeisgood Tue 30-Oct-12 09:01:34

You are being disrespected and neglected. You are carrying him, as well as all of your own burdens and those of your children. The way he treats you is appalling, and your son has learned from him that you have no value and are there to be the family beast of burden. Your son's treatment of you is appalling too.

You ARE a person of value, mulranno, and you deserve better.

What are you getting out of this relationship?

CogitoEerilySpooky Tue 30-Oct-12 09:28:22

I would say 'yes' in answer to your question. Refusal to accept normal adult responsibilities means you effectively have an extra child to care for, not an equal partner. Of course not everyone can cope with difficulties and I'm sure all of us would like someone else to deal with it when life gets tough.... but that's an immature reaction that means others end up suffering, not the response of a mature man. How can he run a company on the one hand but refuse to get informed about family finances on the other?.... doesn't make sense.

You're being used and, from what you describe, it sounds as though he's almost enjoying your discomfort. Does he even like you?

CogitoEerilySpooky Tue 30-Oct-12 09:30:10

BTW.... is it actual depression (clinical illness) you're suffering from or just the natural emotional result of living in such a hostile environment with no help? Do you think you'd still suffer if you didn't have him in the picture?

mulranno Tue 30-Oct-12 10:00:56

Yes I have depression - which is so bad currently that I am on the maximum dose of anti -depressants and a tranquilliser and I still have extreme symptoms so my GP has just referred me to a psychiatrist. I am aware that I have behaved badly through my depression - my worst sympton is real range and anger and a short fuse. Most of the time I am in a very bad mood with no defined target for my anger and I have a very short fuse and flip at anything screaming in frustration at him. He is very mild mannered and has never raised his voice at me in his life.

CogitoEerilySpooky Tue 30-Oct-12 10:45:49

He can afford to be mild-mannered if he side-steps any kind of responsibility. It's a very relaxing way to live, letting someone else take all the punishment. Having said that, it's not easy living with someone with depression. What would happen if you simply took to your metaphorical bed, looked after yourself, and left him to get on with everything?

dequoisagitil Tue 30-Oct-12 10:53:23

But it's no wonder you have a lot of anger - you're basically handling everything with no emotional or practical support from the person who is supposed to be in it with you.

Anger seems a logical response. Depression seems a logical response.

mulranno Thu 01-Nov-12 18:39:45

Cogito -- the bed might not be metaphorical - I am so unwell that I moved out to a hotel for 2 nights this week as I am so stressed. Saw psychiatrist yesterday and have to come off my current ADs+tranq and go on new ones. This will make me a lot worse before I get better and will take 2 weeks. Back home now and just texted him to say can he take tomorrow off as I am not coping with 4 kids + their mates holed up indoors in the half term rain, whilst I withdraw from the ADs - answer a clear not possible. I just need to get myself better before I tackle anything else.

CogitoErgoSparklers Thu 01-Nov-12 18:57:05

Tell him to take a couple of weeks off rather than just a day. Set the stall out realistically.

LemonDrizzled Thu 01-Nov-12 19:53:58

mulranno I lived with a very intelligent man child who "never got angry" and was a king of Passive aggressive avoidance. He gradually turned me into an angry resentful harpie and I behaved horribly until I eventually walked out.
Two year on I am a calm relaxed and happy person while he still looks for someone to blame for all his woes and needs rescuing.

It's not you it is him! He needs to take responsibility for himself and feel some consequences. I second time out for your sanity. The teenagers will be fine. Mine learned to cook and operate a washing machine almost instantly I left!

Come over on the EA Support thread and read some links as it will help you understand why you feel you are going crazy!

FiveFlowers Thu 01-Nov-12 20:11:36

Definitely a deal breaker, no doubt about it.

I am so angry on your behalf that he stands by and watches your son abuse you.

Do you feel strong enough to leave him?

AlexanderS Thu 01-Nov-12 20:18:03

"My teenage son is aggressive and hits me whilst my husband stands by and watches" - all of your post was worrying but this bothered me most of all. If he can't even look out for you when you're being physically attacked it's no good, no good at all. Tell him to take a couple of weeks off work whilst you change your meds as Cognito suggested, and then I think you should insist on a trial separation (but don't tell him this is what you're planning, otherwise he might leave straight away!). I don't think you can make a decision about whether or not to leave him (though I think that's got to be a real possibility) when you are so ill. You need to get to a better place first, which I don't see how you can do with him in the house. Once you've changed your meds you also need prioritise finding a way to cope with your son. Nobody has the right to be physically aggressive towards you, don't put up with it for a second longer.

A book I thoroughly recommend for anybody suffering from depression is The Noonday Demon by Andrew Solomon. He talks about how depression can manifest as rage, as it has in your case.

I wish you all the best OP. You've done really well to manage on your own all this time - I think I'd have gone stark raving crazy a long time ago if I was you.

comethasmybrokentelly Thu 01-Nov-12 20:26:50

watching while your teenage son hits you is a deal breaker

Baskets45 Fri 02-Nov-12 00:58:57

To answer your OP, mulrano, yes it can be. If he can't/won't change then it's going to remain hard for you, but I can see that separating might be far too daunting just now for you. You really need to get well again, and from what you've said you are a long way off total mental wellbeing. But to get well you need support as well as medication and medical care.

Briefly, a lot of what you have described has happened here too. I have had depressive episodes full of rage, mostly directed at him, and he is a very unaggressive person. He is also an 'avoider' I think, and lazy and disorganised. BUT he has improved in last few years. I had a major breakdown a couple of years ago, and realised I needed him on side (by this time I'd stopped being angry, no energy, and the anger was all turned in by then), and spoke to him about how we needed him to look after us. I'm still not well though much better, but ongoing mental and physical problems, and he IS trying now. I wish he could have done so 20 plus years ago. Sometimes it feels like it's too late and too little, but he is making an effort. I also had to explain that the anger was part of my illness, not a character flaw, and not his fault (well, not all the time anyway grin). I've noticed my DH spends much less time these days blaming other people for events that I, the observer, think is his responsibility. Things are far from ideal here, I'm still unsure we'll go the distance, but it is better. He reckons he has grown up at last (he is 65 ffs!). Also had the lack of support around major bereavements, and we have 4 DCs, 2 with SNs.

Re-needing more support over midterm, have you spelt out to him what you need? Have any of your drs or CPNs spoken to him? I know years ago when I had PND (baby is now 22, so a long time ago) it was my CPN that told him he needed to come straight home frm work and not stop in the pub on way home. Getting it from a 3rd party seemed to help comprehension! Also can you 'farm' your DCs and friends out to other households? Do other families know how unwell you are? Are getting enough outside help with your disabled DCs? I hope you can get some support because these circumstances cannot be helping you.

mulranno Fri 02-Nov-12 09:55:49

Basket45 you could be me - but you are still there. Are you waiting to get better and the 4dc to grow up?

Doing it alone doesnt intimadate me - my mother was widowed at 27 with 6 under 6 - and as the oldest I was involved in all of it (inappropriate I know, sorting mortgages and over drafts and attending parents evenings from the age of 8)

We have done Relate in the past and he has been very flippant here to, although I am always surprised when they challenge him - as he hasnt done anything wrong (because he hasnt done anything *at all*) - whereas I am the one who flies into mad frustrated angry rages with him.

The next time my son punches me I will call the police. Although I am aware that my current raging screaming depression (all directed at my husband - NOT my children) is seen and heard by them and has made our family dysfunctional which is why my son feels fit to punch me.

My h excuse for not intervening when my son punches me is that he is "weak" - I asked him last night how he had handled the most recent punching incident ie what were the consequences for my son what was the punishment. He said I spoke to him and got across what I needed to. ie there was no punishment or consequences. I heard this interaction. It consisted of him going into my sons room mumbling a sentance and then my son instantly shouting at him to go away which of course he duly did.

I have just seen a psychiatrist and changed all my meds as I have been in a bad state for over 4 years now. I think I will ultimately be diagnosed as bi-polar 2 - which is the hypomania - so "highs" are all around irritability and crazy productive work rate. So I think that he just cant keep up with me. As I will have sorted all of the decisions by staying up all night researching a problem and looking to put in place solutions etc.

mulranno Fri 02-Nov-12 10:50:38

Lemondrizzled - Come over on the EA Support thread and read some links as it will help you understand why you feel you are going crazy!
can you send me a link please.

mulranno Tue 19-Nov-13 17:54:32

Here I am again a year later....this time my oldest son now 15 punched me to the floor in my utility room - my husband came in dragged him off me and put him in the car to take him to football. I assumed that he would drop him off and come back to me. He stayed and cheered him on at football and didn't even call me. I was very distressed and upset and went to my sisters. He has not disciplined our son since (it has been two weeks). I feel this is the last straw. Is it my job to discipline our son? I want a divorce.

IamGluezilla Tue 19-Nov-13 18:15:34

I think the police should be waiting when he gets home. You've been assaulted in your own home.

Ilovegeorgeclooney Tue 19-Nov-13 18:33:11

Phone the police now. For your son's sake as well as yours. The more you allow your DH to normalize this behaviour the more likely your son is to end up in serious trouble with both the Police and other people. Your DH is empowering him and virtually saying it is OK. Get the Police to speak to your son and make it clear that next time the Police will be called and he will be arrested. If you cannot do it for yourself do it for your other DC. I wonder how he treats them in private? You have to protect them.

tribpot Tue 19-Nov-13 18:50:58

Your son's behaviour is only going to escalate whilst he has no-one at home setting boundaries for him. Report him to the police and give him a bloody great shock, he needs it.

Your depression is not what has made your family dysfunctional. That has been the complete failure of the person without mental health problems to step up and get a fucking grip.

You have to change this current situation. Is there anyone who could help take care of your children? How is your depression now?

cjel Tue 19-Nov-13 18:56:56

I haven't read all this thread but wanted to say that I had 30yrs if depression and then had counselling, stuck with marriage for another few years, started college and was starting to enjoy my life and he got a girlfriend. I left and haven't had panic attack or depression in the two years since I left. Have had house moves, divorce, deaths etc etc in that time and nothing sent me into depression, I'd advise counselling and planning a life without him in itx

mulranno Tue 19-Nov-13 19:11:03

He has assaulted one of my younger daughters in the past. I was on the way to the police two weeks ago after the most recent attack on me happened when I called a friend who is a GP - she suggested that I risked my son having a criminal record which would impact his future....so I did not report him then. I have pleaded with my husband to step up and discipline my son for this incident - he has still not done it. I am angry with my husband, I want him to leave - he refuses. I know that I now need to also do something about my son. I have thought about going to his school? or would they just report it anyway?

mulranno Tue 19-Nov-13 19:13:53

My depression is fine now...off all my meds since May.

cjel Tue 19-Nov-13 19:14:34

I would strongly suggest that you are doing your family a huge disservice by not reporting him, I can't believe that the'friend' recommended this, you should have been encouraged to report it. It is still not too late to report it now , I can't think what you expect your dh to do?

TalkativeJim Tue 19-Nov-13 19:15:13

Phone the police and let your son learn some vague idea of consequences.

Then pack your stuff and leave, at least for a little while. Let your useless kitten-fart of a husband worry about all the things he usually leaves to you - children, food, home.

Take some time for yourself and see a solicitor, and yes, divorce him.

RandomMess Tue 19-Nov-13 19:16:56

I'd be tempted to move out and take the younger 3 with you tbh.

What a dreadful situation for you, your h behaviour is just truly awful sad

TalkativeJim Tue 19-Nov-13 19:18:57

If your husband won't leave... you leave.

Leave him with all the shit to sort.

Really. Go, and don't come back until he agrees to leave himself.

I'd usually say don't leave your home and children, but it sounds as if this useless fuck will last half a day before he's begging you to take the children off his hands, and is running as fast as he can from the demands of running a house on his own. He'll soon figure out that ready meals for one is easier than looking after his kids. That's what's important to him after all - having everything as easy as possible. And you're married, so he can't bar you from the house OR sell it out from under you OR stop you coming back at any point... so yes, LEAVE.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Tue 19-Nov-13 19:24:15

Divorce your husband. Please.

Leave now and take your kids with you. Their mistreatment of you still has time to get sorted. His neverwill.

Anniegetyourgun Tue 19-Nov-13 19:28:16

Don't you think it is important for your son as well as his past and future victims that he should be pulled up now? If he is not disciplined effectively he will only get worse. I don't think you're doing him any favours in the longer term by covering for him now.

As for your husband, he's gone way beyond avoidant and is into the realms of... well, I'm not sure what you'd call it, but he is not just passive, he is happy to let his wife and stepdaughter be assaulted. He seems to have sided actively with your son. "Stop kicking mum about now, lad, we're off to the football." So he doesn't get any trouble, while you're at home nursing your bruises. Er... good role model? Does he actually care about any of you at all, or is a quiet life more important to him than stopping domestic violence under his own roof? Does he even, perhaps, secretly get off on it a little bit, because he is too passive to knock people around on his own account so hides behind someone who will? I don't know, of course, and you probably don't know either, but this really does sound like end of the road time.

mulranno Tue 19-Nov-13 19:33:51

cjel - I expected my husband to help me when I was punched to the floor - to return to me and to comfort me - not stay cheering the abuser on at football. Then I expected him to discipline my son - ground him, take his phone etc. I will call the police now. My husband is refusing to leave - I offered that he could be here with the children at weekends as I could find a sofa to sleep on at friends and family. What will be difficult is that my children will see it as me throwing out their mild mannered Dad. I suppose that I have to take the blame in the short run

mulranno Tue 19-Nov-13 19:35:53

what are the things I need to put in place to separate? he refuses to leave.

cjel Tue 19-Nov-13 19:45:26

Mulranno. I meant what do you expect now? it should have been immediate and instinctive from your H.

I wouldn't worry about what your dcs think . They know the truth just as mine did.x
If its possible - go and stay somewhere else for a few days and use the time to get advice from a solicitor.x

tribpot Tue 19-Nov-13 19:52:21

I honestly can't imagine what it must be like to be 15, to have punched my mum to the floor - and there be no consequences. That is such a serious head fuck.

If he has a criminal record, that will probably deter him from continuing to assault members of his family. In years to come he probably will regret it, whereas if he doesn't see any consequences to his actions you will always regret it.

Can you take the younger children to your sister's?

woodlandwanderwoman Tue 19-Nov-13 21:01:53

Dealbreaker. You sound like an incredibly strong, amazing, practical and compassionate person even if you don't feel like it.

He is hoping you absorb his share of the stress and pressure as well as your own, taking you for granted and doesn't deserve you.

Dealbreaker, you are a wonderful person. xx

FunnyRunner Tue 19-Nov-13 22:27:41

Please OP - you MUST report your son to the police. Get a statement taken and have it all on record. If his violence is escalating you need to know that you will be safe, especially when your husband won't protect you. If anything your husband sounds like he is slyly and passive aggressively supporting the abuse - using your son to abuse you indirectly.

Your husband is useless and I would be looking to formally separate from him. You may need to go through a period of separate rooms / cooking your own meals only etc. until you can make some kind of agreement to sell your home. Obviously if you feel under threat you may need to leave temporarily or make sure the police are clear with your son that he will be in B&B if he so much as looks at you. I genuinely don't believe you will be any worse off without your husband, even if you have to move.

So sorry you are going through this sad

MistAllChuckingFrighty Tue 19-Nov-13 22:31:00

Your husband is also abusing your son by supporting him in his violence.

cjel Wed 20-Nov-13 08:17:20

Morning, How are you today?x

PrincessKitKat Wed 20-Nov-13 08:40:58

OP I'm not a mum but I honestly think I'd leave with the younger DC and let your pathetic DH deal with your aggressive son's rage.

I'm of the opinion that your son treating people like shit is more likely to negatively affect his future than a criminal record. If he carries on in this vein he WILL be reported at some point. It's just a matter of who and when.

Don't let this terrible pair steal another year of your life when you could choose be happy & safe.

HoneyandRum Wed 20-Nov-13 09:06:58

You are completely exhausted and doing everything. Your children are learning to physically abuse you - get the police involved, how bad does it have to get?

Anniegetyourgun Wed 20-Nov-13 09:39:42

Oh - I take back some of my earlier post, having re-read the OP. I had kind of forgotten it when I posted and thought it was his step-family, but the children are all your H's? So it was his own daughter who was assaulted by her brother, and his own son whose behaviour he is refusing to address. Fuck. That's awful.

Legal advice is the way to go, and quickly, while your 15-year-old is still amenable to some kind of behavioural correction, before he comes to a bad end. I have had sons this age and it is vital they have good guidance. And I have, much longer ago, been a girl this age and it is vital they are not beaten up by family members!

mulranno Wed 20-Nov-13 09:43:27

Feeling between a rock and a hard place. I know that I now need to act to discipline my son as my husband cant/wont. However I see what my husband did as worse and unforgivable. I will call the police on my son but I don't want him to think that the marriage break-up is his fault. He came in to hit me in the utility room after hearing a frustrated tongue lashing of his father from me about another incident. He should nt have heard that.

TalkativeJim Wed 20-Nov-13 09:47:54

I have a feeling though if OP leaves and takes the younger children, her shtibag H will sit her son down and spend a happy week or two watching TV and gorging on takeaways, until OP ends up returning out of lack of money/worry for her son/sheer frustration, and the only thing that will have changed is that she'll have a pigsty of a house to clean and a son with an even bigger sense of entitlement to deal with.

OP, go to a solicitor and see if there's anything that can be done to get him out of the house. The thing is an occupation order, and I don't know if there's any mechanism by which you can argue that he is emotionally abusing your son and you need him out of the house.

The ONLY other way I can see him leaving is if OP leaves on her own and leaves him to look after the children...but with the issue of violence against her daughter, I can see the dilemma.

The other option is an immediate file for divorce and immediate police involvement if the son steps out of line again. But here you're looking at a long time before there's a house sale etc. and you're actually away from the scumbag.

TalkativeJim Wed 20-Nov-13 09:50:30

I don't know whether it might be an idea WHEN you call the police to explain that in effect, your husband is condoning and encouraging your son's violenve against you. Ask to speak to the domestic violence unit? This is more complex than having a teenage son kicking out. You are being abused by your husband through your son, effectively. Your husband is also abusing his child.

mulranno Wed 20-Nov-13 10:14:49

TalkativeJim - that's a very good point - it is very complex. I in reality I feel more abused by my husband.

mulranno Wed 20-Nov-13 10:30:57

Should I approach police, social services, CAMHS, GP, school? - what will the consequences be? If I approach one agency are they bound to report it to the police? I need to be clear what can of worms I am opening for us all. Has anyone experience of this next step?

TheDoctrineOfWho Wed 20-Nov-13 10:38:10

OP, your situation is awful, but you are afraid of taking a step to resolve it. What is your fear of that step? Can it really lead to something worse than awful?

mulranno Wed 20-Nov-13 10:52:23

I think that I am scared writing off my sons future with a criminal record. I also worry that he would react very badly - run away or attempt suicide - although I have no evidence for either of these being a reality.

TheSilveryPussycat Wed 20-Nov-13 11:12:31

mulranno I was married to an avoider - it made me depressed, and he used this as an excuse to avoid most paid work, as well as all the other stuff. I didn't realised until the last lot of ADs kicked in, and also by discovering MN, that it was his EA that caused the depression, not the other way round. I have now been divorced for nearly 2 years, the depression went as soon as I filed, and I've gone from strength to strength.

All this to lead up to the link to current EA thread which has been a godsend.

Sorry I can't be any help re your DS, at least not from personal experience. There do need to be consequences though, and I am inclined to think you may have to report - suppose he goes on to do it in the outside world, there may be much more serious consequences for him.

mulranno Wed 20-Nov-13 16:30:51

I just made the term "avoider" up - is it real? - if so how can I find out more about it

TheSilveryPussycat Wed 20-Nov-13 17:29:45

I just ran with your coinage smile All the stuff I read was, frustratingly, about setting boundaries to stop people doing things that were not wanted - there seemed to be little about getting them to do things that were wanted!

Twinklestein Wed 20-Nov-13 17:48:44

The way your son is going he's going to end up with a criminal record for punching someone, it's just a question of who.

If you report him to police, and he's not come to their attention before, they may just give him a talking to if you do not want to pursue the charges. (You can ask that first when you call them).

I doubt your son will think he 'caused' your marriage to break up. It's clear that there are problems in your relationship, he knows that.

ribba Wed 20-Nov-13 17:54:44

OP I really suggest posting about your son in teenagers - there are lots of great women there who have dealt with violent teenage children and you'll get good advice. Calling the police will not give your son a criminal record .

MistAllChuckingFrighty Wed 20-Nov-13 18:26:53

OP, have a look down this list of ten main types of abusive personality (ref. Lundy Bancroft. "Why Does he do that, Inside the minds of Angry and Controlling Men")

here

TalkativeJim Wed 20-Nov-13 19:38:45

OP, I think you need to go to the police because I think that to be able to stop this terribly destructive path your son is on, you need to get your H out of the house. And I think the only way to do that is to go to the domestic violence unit and get their advice.

I can't really see what immediate 'use' SS or CAMHS would be - they would be able to start working with your son, but the problem is the home situation, and particularly the fact that your husband is there essentially providing a subtly abusive, warped climate of acceptibility for your son's violence.

I think that getting your husband removed might be all the shock your son needs to start turning this around.

I don't think you will find yourself leaping into a court case against your son. I think it's more likely that the domestic violence officer might help you start a case for an occupation order against your H.

Talk to the police and WA.

TalkativeJim Wed 20-Nov-13 19:41:51

OP I also think that most of all, you have to stop thinking of it in terms of 'opening a can of worms' - etc. The can of worms is the household you have now. Nothing can be worse for your son than this. In the long term, your son being in custody would be better than this. At least at that point he is starting out on the road back to acceptable behaviour. Whereas here, every minute that passes that he sits in your house, triumphant yet also utterly panicked and deeply confused, totally at sea with the way in which the rules seem to have disappeared and he can no longer look to his parents for guidance...well, every minute like that puts him further and further along the wrong path.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Wed 20-Nov-13 19:44:54

Great posts, TJ

mulranno Wed 20-Nov-13 20:06:25

I have called the police. I have an appt with them on Monday at 8am. they are coming to me and will decide when/how to approach my son after that meeting.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Wed 20-Nov-13 20:08:22

Well done. That must have been so hard. Will you tell your H before then ?

tribpot Wed 20-Nov-13 20:09:29

I'm glad, OP. It will be a hard conversation but the alternative is harder.

cjel Wed 20-Nov-13 20:12:39

So sorry you've had to do that Mulranno, How are you?x

mulranno Wed 20-Nov-13 20:26:48

Devastated by all of it. I told my husband that I planned to report my son. But I have not told him that I have since done it. I don't actually trust him to not tell my son. Its Fri 8 am not Mon 8 am.

All my husband wants to talk about now is not separating -- he cant believe that it has come to this. He still cannot account for how he behaved on the day of the attack, how he did not help me, support me and said nothing to our son - and even said that he didn't see anything.

He said he was just in panic mode.

Now that our family and friends are aware of what has happened and my intentions to divorce him - his best friend has since spoken with him and he has now 15 days after the attack to put in a consequence for my son. My son is now "grounded" until he writes a letter of apology to me.

This I believe is to save his own skin - not because he gives a shit about me or in fact DV, or our son.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Wed 20-Nov-13 20:58:19

I think your summing up is entirely correct sad

tribpot Wed 20-Nov-13 21:08:41

If his behaviour on the day had been completely out of character, his story of blind panic might ring a little truer. But in reality this was exactly the same behaviour as he has exhibited for years. Head down, take care of number 1, take no responsibility, deny, deny, deny.

He reaps as he sows.

Thumbwitch Wed 20-Nov-13 21:09:52

Wow mulranno - I have posted on your other thread about your crisis leading to divorce, I guess this is it then!

I can see that your friends are sitting back and waiting to see if it IS bad enough for you to progress to divorce - but I can't believe they aren't being more supportive in general for the crisis that has precipitated it! You need new friends. And a new husband. And some people around you how actually care enough about you to want to help and support you rather than let you do it all yourself.

(((hugs))) - you're having a rough time at the moment.

summer68 Wed 20-Nov-13 21:13:26

I've just read through your thread- I have absolute sympathy Similar situation to mine-my husband only supported me and finally punished our ds when I packed my bags and said I was leaving. I know he still doesn't believe me when I retell the incident.It really hurts and I hold a resentment in my heart. You sound like a strong woman believe in your own decisions. I hope the police help to deal with your ds violence and maybe your dh might begin to understand how it is not ok for your ds to hit you- but don't bank on it! I wish you lots of strength x

peggyundercrackers Wed 20-Nov-13 21:35:10

you NEED to do something about your son - thats absolutely appalling he his hitting you and his siblings - unfortunately its not uncommon though in other familys for the same thing to happen. This happened in my extended family, cousin/aunt, the only way it stopped is someone else in the family battered fuck out of her had words.

Please do something about it and don't listen to your GP friend, the behaviour will only escalate and get worse - if you don't stop it how far will it go before it gets serious and someone is hurt beyond a bruise or needing a plaster.

cjel Wed 20-Nov-13 21:48:12

I'm sure that you do feel devastated, Its really hard to realise that the people you love don't think bout you the way you think about them, I'm so glad that its out in the open now and not some horrid secret.

I hope you can gather around you some lovely people who do care about you and will take care of you in the way you deserve.xx

TalkativeJim Wed 20-Nov-13 22:34:01

Well done OP.

Ignore your sqealing little coward of a husband. He thinks only of himself - as ever. He has no desire at all to lose his chief cook, bottle washer, and bum-wiper!

You can do this, and you will be happier afterwards, and so will your son.

Refuse to discuss anything at all with either of them might be a good tactic until after the police have visited.

ImperialBlether Wed 20-Nov-13 23:21:40

I would never ever condone violence against you, but the atmosphere of the house sounds really awful and your son sounds desperately unhappy. I know he's behaving really badly. I know it's awful. I just wonder whether he has any other outlet, whether anyone is talking to him or listening to him.

When you said you were on ADs I thought that if you and your husband separated your depression would miraculously lift. You seemed to think you were bi polar at one point but then you said you were off your meds; what do the doctors think caused the depression?

How old is your daughter? How does she get along with your oldest son most of the time? Is she scared of him?

What are the family dynamics like usually? Is there a lot of shouting? Is there any laughter at all? Any times when everyone's getting along well?

mulranno Thu 21-Nov-13 08:39:47

ImperialBlether - I had a major depressive episode this time last year -- that was the first post of this thread. I then revived this thread this week when the recent incidents happened. I have successfully got thru that depressive episode and have been off ADs since May. During my 2 weeks off work due to the episode last year -- I spend a lot of time self diagnosing online and thought BP2 rung true - hence the ref in my post from last year. I saw a psychiatrist every 2 months from Nov to May and he discounted BP2 - but diagnosed a deep depression triggered by a series of major left events.

I do have a lot of sympathy for my son, he is very quiet, introverted and emotionally sensitive. He is in GCSE year at a very demanding grammar school and is feeling the pressure of school. I think that I will call his school for support.

There is a lot of anger in our home. Our 3rd child has sen and behavioral problems - she is very volatile, aggressive and abusive to all her siblings (especially my oldest son) and us. We have been seeing a psychologist with her since Feb and she has recently been accepted by CAMHS.

There is a lot of stress in the family - we both work v demanding full time jobs and the kids have v busy lives. I live with seething resentment of my husband who runs around picking up after the kids all the time, not putting in boundaries or consequences and I feel over loaded - doing my half of the parenting, and his and then another level when he unpicks what I do to be mates with his kids. So I feel I am doing triple parenting against the tide of 4 kids alongside one maverick parent on their side.

My husband is quiet, intelligent, gentle and kind (not to me!)...he does not have a sense of humour and has never made me laugh. I am from a large funny family and I try everyday to bring laughter into the home. My husband, oldest son and sen daughter - dont get it. My other son and daughter are in fits.

mulranno Thu 21-Nov-13 16:18:29

I have called the school today as well to let them know what is going on. They were very supportive and have a clear approach - this is not uncommon apparently. I feel relieved that I have taken some action with the police and school - I feel less burdened somehow. It will now take on a life of its own. I have not told my husband what I have done. In some ways I would like him to sit in on the police interview and school interview just to make him to learn something or at least squirm - but maybe I am above that? what should I do?

MistAllChuckingFrighty Thu 21-Nov-13 16:24:08

He's a parent too, isn't he ?

He should be there

IrishBloodEnglishHeart Thu 21-Nov-13 16:50:38

Ideally he would be with you at both. He needs to hear what the police have to say. My heart goes out to you OP, my DH hovers on the fringes of avoidance behaviour. I can entirely see why it would drive you to rage and depression.

mulranno Thu 21-Nov-13 17:01:02

My 15 year old gave me an unprompted sideways apology just now after nearly 3 weeks. He refused to give me any eye contact or to communicate further when I asked if he would never do it again and said that I was deliberately winding him up and provoking him - and why was I not able to accept his apology.

I suspect it is because my husband after 15 days (Tuesday) put in a consequence that he was grounded until he wrote a letter of apology - and my son is thinking about going out tomorrow night. Even though he hasnt done what my husband asked.

I am worried now that the police and school follow up with him which will now happen after his apology will escalate everything. But is a one word, no eye contact, apology (or even a letter) a sufficient consequence for his action. Am I still justified not to cancel the police and school meetings?

Continue with the police and school meeting.
The school can help your son.
My DD school helped her and after a GP appointment with me she was referred to CAHMS and she has a wonder counsellor now who really helps her.
It could be the making of him.

And the word you need to look up for your 'D'H is 'Fuckwit'!!

Really well done - keep going and keep strong and don't back down.
You won't have to 'press charges' against your son. They will probably just have a word with him and give him a bit of a fright.

Start to look into the practicalities of leaving as well.
CAB and a solicitor.
Good luck!!!

MistAllChuckingFrighty Thu 21-Nov-13 17:16:39

Don't cancel the meetings.

amumthatcares Thu 21-Nov-13 17:56:56

OP, I don't have any experience of your situation but have read your thread all through.

I agree with all the advice to take action regarding your son. I don't see it as punishing him - more as helping him. If nothing is done now, as has been said, he will think his actions are acceptable and how would you feel in 10-15 years time when his wife turns up on your doorstep because he's battered the sh*t out of her, or worse still, one of his children? Tough love called for here.

Good luck mulranno - you've come such a long way ((hugs)) to you

mulranno Thu 21-Nov-13 18:50:15

I agree - I firmly believe that I am helping him out -- I think that he has a lot of other stuff on his plate right now and he just needs to learn to respond to stress and express his anger in different ways. I do believe I am doing the best thing for him with the police and school in the short and long term. School have been very supportive.

TheSilveryPussycat Thu 21-Nov-13 19:49:39

Yes of course go on with the meetings. They are a consequence of his actions, and are designed to address those actions, and to help him. And an apology is not a pass to being let off consequences. I would accept his apology at face value and not press for more.

And he may be quite right that he cannot promise what control he has over future actions. But you are getting him help with that.

tribpot Thu 21-Nov-13 20:24:50

I think it's great that the school are on your side. They understand the consequences too and also only want what is best, not easiest, for your ds.

Good for you, mulranno.

temporarilyjerry Thu 21-Nov-13 20:49:59

He refused to give me any eye contact or to communicate further when I asked if he would never do it again and said that I was deliberately winding him up and provoking him.

This is very worrying, Mulranno. "You made me do it" is the justification of every abuser. Hopefully, your son will get the help he needs.

Good luck and flowers

cjel Fri 22-Nov-13 10:24:51

Morning MULRANNO, I have been thinking of you this morning. Hope the appointment was OK?x

mulranno Fri 22-Nov-13 12:36:17

I think that I have opened the can of worms that I didn't want to. Saw police today - they are proceeding whether I provide a written statement or not. They consider it a low level common assault but will progress it because I mentioned numerous previous attacks which left bruising. Likely to get some sort of caution which will be on file for CRB checks - although no further action is another possible outcome. They will formally interview him on Sunday morning with a solicitor and another appropriate adult present (we can be there). Think that I wish I had spoken with the school first. Not sure when and how to tell him. But I do know that he has done something very wrong and even worse is that he cant see it. I hope this doesn't tip us all over the edge. I also have my husband pleading for me not to make him move out.

mulranno Fri 22-Nov-13 12:37:00

we cant be there

FunnyRunner Fri 22-Nov-13 12:40:47

OP so sorry you are having to go through this. The way you have to look at it is: you are teaching your son that people (especially women) are not there to be punching bags every time he feels angry or down. This is a lesson that will hopefully keep him on the straight and narrow for the rest of his life.

Don't be afraid to use this as a watershed moment to get your son / family into family therapy. You have done the right thing.

cjel Fri 22-Nov-13 12:46:28

So sorry Mulranno. Please be assured that although his is a horrid time for you all, you are doing the right thing for all your family. The police was the right choice for you don't be scared of them they are kind and right ,and with the help of them and the school jointly you will get the help you want. Stay strong.xxx

IrishBloodEnglishHeart Fri 22-Nov-13 13:03:32

Oh God this sounds so terribly hard for you but remember your son punched you to the floor. He has a record of physical attacks on your person, nothing has stopped this before and so now something has to be done.

Absolutely agree with previous poster who says this could be a watershed moment. I have recently been in an entirely different situation but one which I thought could only end up in disaster and grief. It didn't, it took time but it worked through with some surprising and positive outcomes. With the right approach this could work out well for you. I just hope your husband can rise to the challenge.

Sending you strength and positive vibes through the ether xxxx

Thumbwitch Fri 22-Nov-13 13:27:00

Awful though it is, that it has come to this, what is worse is that your son has felt able to behave like this because his father pretty much condones the behaviour.

While it might not exactly feel like it just now, you are doing him a massive favour in showing him that not only is his behaviour unacceptable, it is criminal and he needs to get control of it NOW before he gets much older.

I hope it also shows his father how fucking slack he has been to allow this to continue unchecked; as clearly your son doesn't value your input to the situation.

amumthatcares Fri 22-Nov-13 15:22:33

Please try to stay strong mulranno You have most definitely done the right thing even if it doesn't feel like it right now. Initially, things might well get worse before they get better but in the long run it will have been the best thing you could do for your son. One day he will realise that.

Your husband should be ashamed of himself.....it's as much his fault as anyones that it has come to this. If he had stepped up and been the 'man' of the house a long time ago, it would more than likely have been nipped in the bud a long time ago.

livingzuid Fri 22-Nov-13 16:05:25

OP my heart goes out to you. You have totally done the right thing by speaking both to the police and the school. You waste of space husband has for years completely undermined any authority you had which means it has had to come to this. I will eat my hat if he ever admits to shouldering any responsibility for this though.

God I feel for you. I had 8 years of people telling me how lovely and gentle my ex was. It left me a shadow of myself. No children fortunately or it would have been a disaster. I hope you manage to get out of the relationship soon. It's unbelievably stressful what you are having to go through I am so sorry. Please take care of yourself.

I would move out and leave him to deal with it. Let him extert himself for once and deal with reality. Take a break for yourself.

That can absolutely had to be opened.
He's done it before and he'll do it again unless action is taken against him.
You can't do it as it will just escalate and your useless H doesn't do anything.
You know you have done the right thing.
And if you can, I'd get away for a bit with the younger DC.
Is this something you can do?
You need some space now.

tribpot Fri 22-Nov-13 17:48:28

OP, you can't be the avoider on this. I know he's your baby but he's also a troubled teen, and he needs to know that actions have consequences. To teach him otherwise is a failure in a parent (exhibit A: your husband).

You need to get your husband out. No more pleading - he gets himself gone.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Fri 22-Nov-13 18:03:47

The fact that you say your son sees he has done no wrong is exactly why this can needed openijg very wie indeed

The sad thing though I can see happening is that your worry about your son, and the consequences of his actions are taking your eye off the main ball. The fact that you all need to get the fuck away from your husband.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Fri 22-Nov-13 18:03:56

*wide

Dinnaeknowshitfromclay Fri 22-Nov-13 20:04:26

I am willing to bet that if you were away from the invertebrate husband for a significant length of time and the dust settled, everyone in the family was able to draw breath and relax with each other, your 'depression' and all the attendant 'rages' etc. would magically disappear!
I feel angry just reading about him OP. Living with him must be pure hell. I have a family member that has abdicated responsibility and doesn't engage with her life at all, in a similar way to your waste of space so called husband. It causes massive problems around her but she doesn't care, she isn't ill, she just cannot be bothered to make any effort whatsoever. You are probably not ill at all, just repressing totally, the urge to beat the bastard with a barb wire paddle!

mulranno Fri 22-Nov-13 20:14:21

I know that I have done the right thing for my son - he has no remorse and continues to justify it. School have been great - they will put in pastoral care from male head of year - to give - quote "fatherly direction on how to be an appropriate young man" and counselling to deal with anger. School said that police would most likely involve them - they have not mentioned this as yet and are taking a tough line with my son. I am prioritizing my son's future and standing strong, anticipating a shit storm this weekend. No idea how I will get my husband to move on.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Fri 22-Nov-13 20:16:03

It says it all when they have to appoint someone in school to do what your stupid husband should be doing.

mulranno Fri 22-Nov-13 20:27:04

Agree - Mist - but the police(woman) said that I was his parent too and should have stepped up and disciplined him as well for attacking me - and that I was wrong to expect my husband to do it.

tribpot Fri 22-Nov-13 20:27:32

Your son may choose to side with his father, who is taking the path of least resistance. Please don't think this means you have got it wrong.

Onefewernow Fri 22-Nov-13 20:29:41

You do indeed need to get away from your H.

I suspect he takes some pleasure in the fact that your kids hit you.

The house is totally out if control because he won't step up, he undermines you, and finally you fail to cope. As a result of all this, they can't cope. Not that their violent solution is the answer.

You need to get your H out. HE is the main problem . You can also restore respect to yourself in this way, believe me.

mulranno Fri 22-Nov-13 20:36:07

My husband came to the station and I will ensure that he tells my son that WE reported him, and WE will take him to the police for his interview on Sunday....that's the least he can be expected to do at this stage.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Fri 22-Nov-13 20:50:21

the police really said that to you ?

what victim-blaming bollocks (that policewoman is short of some training, IMO)

ignore that shite and keep pushing forward with what you know is right

mulranno Fri 22-Nov-13 21:02:45

She was about 12 with the IQ of a paper cup - and she had missed the point that that is exactly what I was in fact doing sitting in front of her at the station - reporting a crime to ensure the appropriate consequences/punishments are put in place.

We have just told our son - my husband did the talking. Son has kicked off verbally and got up to push us out of his room before holding back. lost the plot when we said we had involved school and said he is never going back.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Fri 22-Nov-13 21:18:35

Keep pushing onwards, love. Is your H coming through a bit, do you think ?

cjel Fri 22-Nov-13 22:19:10

Did she perhaps expect you to beat your son to 'show him who is boss'.

I don't understand that comment from her at all, obviously never had a useless H and son herself.

Glad you could see she wasn't that brightsmile

livingzuid Sat 23-Nov-13 00:05:47

Wow what a stupid police officer. I would report that. It's not like you've gone to them at the drop of a hat it's kind of a last resort because your son won't listen to you and thinks violence against others is an acceptable form of behaviour - like you've taught him that? Dumb woman it makes you despair.

I'm sorry it was so tough on you to tell your son. And I'm glad the H did the talking and you were both able to put on a united front even if he resorted to being physical again. The school sound excellent. What he has to understand is that if he doesn't go then police and school will just go to him. There is no escape when he behaves the way he has done. Actions have consequences. I think you're being a great parent there are many who would not do what you're doing to the detriment of their family's and others safety.

Being a teenager sucks I would never want to go there again so I do feel for your son too. It's not easy is it sad hope you are bearing up OK.

Thumbwitch Sat 23-Nov-13 04:34:36

Nice move in victim-blaming there, policewoman! [ngry]

This is a very good demonstration of what happens when only one parent does the disciplining and the other just lets them get away with pretty much anything - the children believe they CAN get away with pretty much anything because the disciplinarian has been totally undermined and so has no respect from, and therefore loses authority over, the children.

Policewoman = idiot for saying that to you. Report her.

Ursula8 Sat 23-Nov-13 08:55:04

OP, a 12 year old policewoman told me I was "overreacting" when I called them here after my ex punched me in the face, threw me to the floor and then repeatedly kicked me between the legs whilst wearing shoes.
Please do not let her stupidity put you off doing what you know is right.

Onefewernow Sat 23-Nov-13 09:57:34

Thumbwitch, that is spot on.

Thumbwitch Sat 23-Nov-13 10:27:12

Ursula, that is disgusting!! shockangry - I hope you reported that one too!

mulranno Sat 23-Nov-13 15:32:45

I have finally got h to agree to move out M-F for the next 4 weeks - he can move back in on the weekends and I will stay at my sisters.

I achieved this by giving him an ultimatum that if he didn't move out by tomorrow evening I would leave with the younger children.

It has taken me 3 long weeks of digging in my heels to get to this point.

He finally put in a consequence for my son earlier this week - 15 days after the assault telling him that he would not now be allowed out until he wrote me a letter of apology.

He has not done this yet and I know he has plans to go out this evening. I mentioned this to my husband - and his first response was well I wont be here to stop him as I am going out.....followed up with do you think we should let him off the letter writing and let him go out tonight as it will do him good to see his friends as he will be under so much stress with the police etc..........................WTF!

MistAllChuckingFrighty Sat 23-Nov-13 15:39:11

Well done to the first bit

< screeeam > at the 2nd bit

is your h actually stupid in the correct medical sense of the term ?

Thumbwitch Sat 23-Nov-13 15:44:02

OMG. Your utter twat of an H has no fucking clue or backbone at all, does he. WHAT a wanker.
I think you should still leave with the younger children, tbh. Leave your son with his father and see how they both get on together (I know that's neither helpful, sensible nor realistic but God, I'd be tempted.)

RandomMess Sat 23-Nov-13 15:50:41

sad angry what a nightmare

cjel Sat 23-Nov-13 16:02:05

So pleased that you are being strong. Its sounding like your H has already left your family if he's going out tonight instead of supporting you - this is one of the most important weekends in your families life.

(((Hugs)))

mulranno Sat 23-Nov-13 16:17:00

The letter of apology has arrived, all is calm.

Son wants his deluded 78 year old alcoholic grandmother (MIL) to attend the police interview tomorrow morning as his "appropriate adult" - husband and I are not allowed to as we are witness and victim in the incident. This has me roaring inside with laughter (think gallows humor must kick in when under real stress) - she will rock up in her furs and diamonds, spouting nonsense, stinking of booze giving them a piece of her mind.

But I have this overall sense of relief and excitement that my husband is moving out...is that wrong?

tribpot Sat 23-Nov-13 16:17:24

On a completely practical level, if either your H or your ds go out tonight, neither will be present when the police turn up tomorrow.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Sat 23-Nov-13 16:33:31

No, it's not wrong, it is as it should be.

He's not "moving out" though, is he ? Or did I get it wrong. I am presuming the Mon-Fri bit is in the interim while you get a divorce and sell the house ? Or is it a permanent arrangement ?

mulranno Sat 23-Nov-13 17:57:38

tribpot - not sure what you mean? We have to take our son to station tomorrow am.

Mist - he has not agreed to anything for the last 3 weeks -until I suggested this interim measure - giving me 4 weeks space to gain some perspective. Will cross the next bridge when we get there. He seems to think that I cant cope without him.

TheSontaranPussycat Sat 23-Nov-13 18:04:52

Ha! They all think that hmm. And tbf for a long time I thought I wouldn't cope without my FW. I was wrong, and you know you'll cope.

mulranno Sat 23-Nov-13 18:06:24

I cant cope with him

MistAllChuckingFrighty Sat 23-Nov-13 18:07:05

OK, love. Just looking out for you. Keep your eye on what you want long term. I hope it is him out of your life

You will cope without him, of course you will. These deluded twats are the ones who won't cope without their emotional punchbags.

TheSontaranPussycat Sat 23-Nov-13 18:12:20

Exactly so mulranno. I couldn't cope with him there, but didn't realise the problem was him not me!

mulranno Sat 23-Nov-13 18:24:22

Thanks Mist...I will be fine and once I taste freedom (we will have been together 30 years next year - met at school).....I will be fine. Excited already. He is moving in with his deluded alcoholic mother - she said she has been aware that "things were not right" for some time - she also suggested that my 15 year old leave with them too....over my dead body

ItsBiggerOnTheInside Sat 23-Nov-13 18:25:56

Just read your thread and wanted to say, as a teacher at secondary school, that your are not alone in this happening and that you have been very brave indeed.

Hope the weekend goes well

Dinnaeknowshitfromclay Sat 23-Nov-13 18:41:01

You are doing so well Mulranno. Just keep looking forward to what you want. You are doing brilliantly. You will come out the other side, get better, be able to think straight and become whole again. You are amazing!

mulranno Sat 23-Nov-13 19:15:04

Thank you all for you support - it helps me to realize that I am not irrational and unreasonable.

MrsSquirrel Sat 23-Nov-13 19:24:05

Quite the contrary mulranno, you seem entirely rational and more than reasonable to me.

Onefewernow Sat 23-Nov-13 19:36:11

You are not unreasonable . You have a right to exert what must people consider normal boundaries in your house. And you have a right to be backed up by your H when you do. AND you have a right to expect that he does half of it himself. And not cherry pick.

My own H was much less shitty than yours and there was no violence, but I certainly know what it was like for years to get little help, and undermining re the kids. And that backtracking business about tonight- been there, done that. They squirm to exert authority with them.

In many cases, IMO, the issue is that these sorts of men see their own childhood selves when they look at their kids, and behave accordingly. So they can't say no. Secondly, it is convenient for them and makes for an easy life. And it is a way of punishing you too, but silently, because they get some enjoyment out of the kids anger with you, and their favoured status, especially when you have been rowing about stuff.

I am so glad he is moving out, and I hope it is permanent. Because he is light years away from seeing the problem before him.

I don't think you will "not cope". When this sort of thing was an issue in my house, life was always easier when he was away for work, for sure. The kids get to know what's what and stop acting up.

Even now we have to a large extent resolved our issues with two sets of sessions at Relate, it still makes my life easier with the kids when he is working away for a few weeks on weekdays, as often happens.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Sat 23-Nov-13 19:44:29

OP, you are the only sane and rational one among that shower, seriously.

Onefewernow Sat 23-Nov-13 20:05:09

Amen to that. Mist is right.

Onefewernow Sat 23-Nov-13 20:08:56

Here's another thing-

Expect him to adopt the victim status any time soon. That is how it works. You are the angry mean one, and he is the "victim". This kind of shit gets into your head after a while, so you start to lose confidence whilst remaining angry at the same time. And coping, and coping.

You really do need out, and I'm sure that your depression will start to lift.

Holdthepage Sat 23-Nov-13 20:19:16

mulranno - you are doing the right thing as far as your son is concerned. I have an absolute horror story about some friends & their son. They never sorted him out as a teenager, he is in his 30s now & has served a prison sentence for assaulting his mother.

mulranno Sat 23-Nov-13 22:14:55

I know that the children and others will see it as mad, frustrated, angry, domineering control freak kicks out the quiet, kind, mild mannered husband. But I will not play to that stereo type - I will not bad mouth him and I will be civil - I will just say that we were unable to resolve some issues.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Sat 23-Nov-13 22:23:28

it doesn't matter how others see it

they are not living your life

Thumbwitch Sat 23-Nov-13 22:30:34

Mulranno - I think your H will lose no time in badmouthing YOU all over the place, and mud sticks, sadly, even among people who have known you forever and whom you probably count as friends.

So it's better for you that you have a little more information in your own comments about why you've split; there's taking the high ground and then there's leaving yourself wide open to attack, you need to find a middle road between those.

mulranno Sat 23-Nov-13 23:15:09

Thumbwitch - It will be tricky as it is 100% my decision to separate he would do anything not to - so it will appear one sided - especially as i am a feisty extrovert and he is a gentle introvert. People will also judge me on inflicting a divorce on my children. I think that I will just say something like we were unable to parent as a team which which was more detrimental to our children than living apart.

Thumbwitch Sat 23-Nov-13 23:16:49

I think that's a better option, certainly - irreconcilable differences in parenting techniques!

cjel Sat 23-Nov-13 23:54:04

I'd stay quiet and only tell people you trust anything about your life! A phrase I used to myself again and again was 'quiet dignity'. Let the others a round you get worked up about reasons. If people choose toattack you because your marriage has ended then don't have to have contact with them.

livingzuid Sun 24-Nov-13 02:13:09

mulranno people will always judge and make sweeping ill-bred assumptions based on nothing. Let them. The people who care are the ones who will understand. Cjel is right about the quiet dignity. Do right by your children and you and it will work out in the end. Once the toxic atmosphere is reduced at home it will help your whole family.

I get the relief thing! It's wonderful! Don't feel bad about that. Don't feel bad about any of this. It's the first steps in putting your life back on track.

Sounds naff but time is the best thing. Look how far you've changed things already for the better and in such a short space of time! Hope you are bearing up OK.

out2lunch Sun 24-Nov-13 03:07:19

well done op you have done so so well.keep strong.x

custardo Sun 24-Nov-13 03:42:20

giving my best wishes for tomorrowX

tribpot Sun 24-Nov-13 11:02:57

Sorry mulranno I thought the police were coming to the house - that's why I thought ds might do a runner if he went out last night. Did either he or your husband actually go out?

I think 'we were unable to parent as a team' is a great line - but I don't think many people who know you well will have missed how passive and ineffectual your husband is.

Hope it goes okay today. Shame your MIL can't be arrested for wearing fur whilst she's there wink

cjel Sun 24-Nov-13 11:30:13

Thinking of you this morningxx

MistAllChuckingFrighty Sun 24-Nov-13 11:53:27

Hope all is well, OP

mulranno Sun 24-Nov-13 21:29:41

Interview was ok - he got a sort of caution - will be on regional police force database but not national as a possible suspect in a crime - will not come up on a standard crb check unless the check requests a deep security vetting. He is still not getting it -- police gave us a bit of a talking to for rowing in earshot of him...so he has taken this to heart and says - no I wont do it again unless you stress me out....he is more terrified about school tomorrow - he didn't want them to know and doesn't want their involvement....but then have promised confidentiality and support.
he says he hates me - I have ruined is life - he wants me out of his life - I stress him out all the time - I have chucked out his Dad etc...I have said that I have done this for him - that his Dad and I are taking a break for 4 weeks after 30 years together and he will be back that my aim is a calm and order house. Which is exactly what my 15 yr old craves - he is a quiet, orderly introvert - who hates noise and chaos.

mulranno Sun 24-Nov-13 21:31:07

he will be back for xmas - and we will decide what happens from there

cjel Sun 24-Nov-13 22:48:02

I don't think you should get into a discussion about your marriage with your son. Some things should be kept between a husband and wife and as such it is none of his business. He is angry with you not because you are not living together , but because his affirmation of his bad behaviour has been taken away. Its like the secret is out and you've shamed him. He can no longer get away with it and you have made sure of that.
He may thinks he hates you now but you have to hang on to the thought that he would have continued to treat people like this the whole of his life and you are protecting them as well.
He can't be happy if he has this anger in him and he will now get the help he needs to become a very successful young man.
You have done a great thing for your family, don't let him bully you any more.xx

MistAllChuckingFrighty Sun 24-Nov-13 22:51:32

agree

tribpot Sun 24-Nov-13 23:34:49

no I wont do it again unless you stress me out

Mmmm yes. Exactly what abusers say. Where is he learning this behaviour?

The answer to that is, you won't do it ever again, full stop. Violence is a crime and you will be punished for it. I am not to blame for your violence, it is on you and you alone.

I know you've been forced to accept a 4 week separation but all that does is (a) kick the can down the road and (b) make you the Parent Who Ruined Christmas Forever by letting him back in and then kicking him back out again. And in your desire to avoid that happening, you will end up letting him back and staying.

Don't be browbeaten - by either of them, mulranno. Bloody well done for going through with it today.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Sun 24-Nov-13 23:46:11

You have been great so far, mulranno

Please keep posting. You are going to need our (and RL) support again.

mulranno Mon 25-Nov-13 22:52:39

Day one was fine for us all. Although I am under no illusion that it will remain this way as I re-set the routines, boundaries, consequences and respect for the house - I expect tough challenges along the way.

Son turned up at the school counselor today which I am really pleased about. School will feed back to me how this is going. I absolutely agree that the "...unless it happens again" position from son is ridiculous - but I am working with school on that.

I am feeling calm - household is calm and quiet.

I felt very relieved when I contacted the police last week and saw it thru after 2.5 weeks of turmoil (and over 2 years of physical abuse) and then when I got my husband to agree to 4 weeks out of the house - I felt a burden lifted.

I am not looking too far ahead - just taking one day at a time - this is not me back tracking or opting out -- it is just the way that I find best to cope.

I am proud of what I have done for every member of my family - including my husband.

mulranno Mon 25-Nov-13 23:05:25

Can I just say an amazingly, massive, life changing thank-you to everyone who has listened advised and supported me over the past few days.

I could not have done this with RL advice. My friends and family although shocked with son and husband have stepped away from the shit storm (which I understand) when I came out to them last week and have either been negatively judgmental, non committal or even non contactable....

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1916443-to-be-hurt-that-after-sharing-a-major-marriage-crisis-with-friends

Thumbwitch Tue 26-Nov-13 04:46:42

That's great news, Mulranno - that your son has seen the counsellor and that the house has calmed down. Fantastic! smile thanks

Has everyone still abandoned you? <goes to read other thread again>

MistAllChuckingFrighty Tue 26-Nov-13 07:15:11

Friends and family can be shit in these situations. They are too close to the problem, that doesn't excuse them though sad

IamGluezilla Tue 26-Nov-13 07:45:48

Some people are shit. Let this help you sort the wheat from the chaff in terms of friends and family.

Well done on everything!
You've been amazing.
You do it at your pace and the way you want to.
We all cope with things differently and you won't be judged by any of us on here, not matter what the outcome.
So glad you are feeling more calm and long may that continue.
Keep posting and get some RL support from one of your friends that had NOT abandoned you at your time of need!
I really hope your son comes through this and better, happier and more calm young man.
Keep strong and keep going. We are all rooting for you.

ItsBiggerOnTheInside Tue 26-Nov-13 16:25:34

Big hug from me! Such good news.

mulranno Wed 27-Nov-13 19:51:54

Unexpectedly my son has been really good with me the last couple of days - I expected him to run off with his Dad and hate me forever.

His Dad said that we couldn't get divorced because my son would hate me, leave with him and I would have then broken up the family - and I believed this to be a real and acceptable possibility - that's how bad things were.

But it has not been like that at all. I know that he hates noise, stress and mess and I promised him that my aim was to create a calm peaceful house by getting his Dad to leave so that I can run our family my way and the the right way.

And this is where we are only 3 days in....I spent Monday night with him looking at Uni courses on line and this afternoon with him at school discussing A level options. He doesn't hate me at all - in fact it has become obvious that he really respects me and he has shown this more in the last 3 days than in the last 3 years - so this an amazing and unexpected outcome.

I did read some where that a family is only as happy as its most unhappy child -- and I think that this is true as the family dynamic is pulled down to the lowest common denominator. I have been really shocked and devastated that I have raised this dysfunctional and unhappy family.

Family life is sooo important to me I am the oldest of seven, have 60 odd first cousins and work ethic, kindness, fun, teamwork and respect are how I was brought up and all I wanted was to replicate this with my own big brood. I didn t choose to have 4 kids because I hate parenting.

So it would brilliant to turn this all around before their childhood is over.

I really did think that my oldest would walk out and hate me forever - but I thought that was worth it if I could prevent blighting the younger 3's future.

cjel Wed 27-Nov-13 19:58:15

Well done, I didn't think he hated you he as only showing his sadness in the only way he knew. You will struggle when some things crop up but you know that when he doesn't have that other 'voice' in his ear you will get the family you deserve. Its horrid when you are told crap and you believe it isn't it. Your H won't be welcome back I should think.

Enjoy your familyxx

tribpot Wed 27-Nov-13 20:14:20

This is really good, mulranno. I think you've shown him (a) you care enough to take action to help him and (b) you're in charge. I do genuinely think it must have freaked the shit out of him to have hit his mum to the ground and got away with it - the damage of that would be have been immeasurable, and lasted years.

But you have to remember he is still a teenager, and if he senses that your deepest fear is that he will leave and follow his dad, he will play on that when you inevitably disagree in the future. But you should hold on to the memory of this unexpectedly fantastic reaction to what happened - he wants you to be the parent, not his friend. You've done the right thing.

MistAllChuckingFrighty Wed 27-Nov-13 20:29:07

Gosh, I have something in my eye right now. What a wonderful revelation. Please, keep on overturning all this shit you have been conditioned to believe all these years by your abusive husband.

You are a great mother and you have great kids. Despite that fucker.

Onefewernow Wed 27-Nov-13 20:53:14

This does not surprise me one bit. Well done and keep going. You will continue to realise that you were not wrong.

amumthatcares Wed 27-Nov-13 21:02:25

Fantastic news mulranno

Enjoy your DS, enjoy all your children, enjoy being a mum smile x

MistAllChuckingFrighty Wed 27-Nov-13 21:03:59

it's not too late for you and your son, love

I said that to you waaaay upthread

get your husband out of the equation, you will get your son back

Thumbwitch Wed 27-Nov-13 23:10:23

Mulranno, I'm so pleased for you, reading that update. Your son may have realised, now that his Dad has left, that in fact he WAS the cause of the upset, not you, and that's turned his thinking around.

I suppose it's too soon to ask if you can extend the 4 weeks indefinitely, is it?

Retroformica Thu 28-Nov-13 00:27:38

Your happier and have given boundaries. Now he's happier! .

IrishBloodEnglishHeart Thu 28-Nov-13 07:42:01

This is such great news and in my book you have been extremely courageous. It is also very exciting to hear how quickly the effects of your challenging decisions/actions are taking place. Your son is very lucky to have you as his mum. More power to you both!

Dinnaeknowshitfromclay Thu 28-Nov-13 07:55:43

Mulranno, you haven't raised a dysfunctional family, over the years you have taken one step forward and your husband has taken that step back and then some. It just goes to show in a short space of time what you are capable of doing without that ball and chain holding you back and messing with your abilities. You sound like you are blossoming to be honest. You should be so proud!
The situation also proves what so many women say is that the home is often happier without the husband/partner when a DW is considering holding on to a crap relationship 'for the sake of the kids'.

So good to read your update.
Just keep doing what you are doing now and it'll work out just fine.
Well done again on everything you have achieved since the start of this thread.
You are a true inspiration of courage.
Just make sure you keep that Fuckwit out of your house!
You know it's better without him.
You already have 4 kids you don't need the 5th one anymore!

Onefewernow Thu 28-Nov-13 10:38:19

I think what happens with the kids is the relief of knowing that boundaries are firm- it makes them feel safe.

Not knowing where they are, and knowing that parents are at war over most issues involving them, is the issue from their perspective. He is relieved to know that an adult is in charge. Also, they aren't daft- they work out from their friends' homes and school what most families consider acceptable- which is the same as your view.

mulranno Thu 28-Nov-13 13:37:07

Feeling a bit wobbly today about the weekend arrangements for tomorrow.
Plan is that the kids stay here - h out of the house m-f and me f-s.

He has been at his mothers and hating it -- but been in and out of here - taking youngest to school, ds2 to physio, sorting revision notes for ds1 etc. So they have all seen him briefly everyday - was hanging around way too long last night and getting involved in my routines - so I asked him to leave. Stupidly I agreed that he could stay this evening as I have my company xmas do, needed a babysitter and will be back late.

But this is making me feel suffocated and uneasy as that means he will be here right through to Sunday. I am going to tell him he cant stay.

Also the looming reality of sofa surfing over the weekend is making me anxious. I work long hours 5 days a week - and at the weekend - just want down time an to be at home - to tidy up, do my washing, chill out etc.

I don't want to be a house guest. Maybe I should just invest a cheap travelodge for this weekend for the sake of my mental health.

MrsSquirrel Thu 28-Nov-13 13:50:48

Stick to your boundaries mulranno, you have been doing so well with them in place.

It doesn't matter to you if h hates it at his mothers. The marriage is ending, his feelings are not your concern any more. He is a grown man, he can make other arrangements for himself if he chooses to.

tribpot Thu 28-Nov-13 13:55:48

God yes - you definitely need to have a quiet space of your own for the weekend if you can't be in your own home.

Personally I would go for a Premier Inn rather than a Travelodge. Nothing wrong at all with TL but PI will be a bit more comfortable if you're planning to spend some downtime in the room - and I hope that you are! If you go for one by a motorway it will be cheaper, but in both hotels the sound proofing is usually good enough that you won't be bothered.

Equally, depending on your budget Holiday Inn can be good value - I stay at the one in Hemel Hempstead occasionally and that's nice and has a pool, which makes it feel like it's a proper holiday.

Personally I think it's too soon for your H to be returning at all, particularly with the risk that he manages to undo all your progress with your ds. I would tell him he can't come home at all, but as a compromise you will vacate for one night, not two. You will have all your own stuff to do when you do get the house back.

cjel Thu 28-Nov-13 19:07:21

If you are feeling uneasy and not liking the arrangement then change it. Please don't give yourself rubbish weekend to try and keep him happy. It may be time to start proper separation discussions.
If you have to leave the house every weekend, who knows what will be coming back to?
Start as you mean to go on and your dcs will be much more settled and stable. Also don't allow him to hang around, if he is taking and fetching have dcs ready so he doesn't have to come in. This is going to be hard but at the moment you and dcs are going to be disrupted just to keep him happy.

Thumbwitch Fri 29-Nov-13 12:37:32

I agree that it might be counterproductive to have him there at the weekend, whether you are there or not. I may be doing him a disservice but so far he appears to be trying to ingratiate himself with your DS1 all the time by giving in to him and allowing him to do pretty much what he wants - if he does that all weekend, I hate to think what your DS1 will be like when you get back on the Sunday. You could be back to ground level again with him sad

Let the arrangement stand for this weekend and see what happens - and if it's not to your satisfaction then change it next weekend. He's going to use his time to try and worm his way back in.

Also make sure you take your laptop and any other electronic media with you so he can't snoop; and other important paperwork - financial, legal etc.

tribpot Sat 30-Nov-13 20:10:37

Hope you are holed up in 5-star luxury somewhere, OP, having spa treatments and generally treating yourself as well as you deserve.

BhearNOW Tue 30-Sep-14 12:56:30

Update a year later...OP with a NC...He moved out end Nov '13 - youngest was in bits, agreed it was temp and he could come back at xmas - but he was here very evening and wormed his way back to stay over most nights with some excuse or another. So I did not get my time off...I was also worried about not disrupting oldest doing mocks after xmas and then GCSEs. I went to Relate on my own for 4 months - as he just squirms and lies and snakes around....it was a useful venting experience. I decided to put perm separation on hold until exams were over. But then I plummeted into depression before I could get started.

I had called him an "avoider" as that is all I knew. I had tipped into being the screaming banshee role (achieving nothing) - although I dont do that anymore as I expect nothing of him. Then I had this light bulb moment this week and found the Passive Aggressive label for him and Codep for me.

This has just allowed me to label what I live thru, see it as a structure and not something that I have created and am 1005 responsible for. I have 5 petulant children (not 4) and I do x3 the work at home..mine parental responsibilities, my PA husbands responsibilities and then the work again where he has unpicked everything I have done. I don't know if he is conscious or not of how he behaves.....but it is corrosive and crazy making ... Seen from outside as quiet placid husband and ott hen pecking crazy wife. I need to get out asap.

books.google.co.uk/books?id=JIyyid3xRyEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Living+with+the+Passive-Aggressive+Man&cd=1&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependent_personality_disorder
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency
www.adultchildren.org/lit/Laundry_List.php
coda.org/index.cfm/meeting-documents/patterns-and-characteristics-2011/
coda.org/index.cfm/meeting-documents/patterns-of-recovery/

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