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not ok to shake our son...

(135 Posts)
DippyDoohdah Mon 15-Oct-12 22:42:36

my estranged Dh and I have been trying to have some family time before divorce finalised, to make sure w are doing right thing/see if can come back together.long story but includes me feeling very strongly that is too heavy handed with 2 and 4 year old ds..4 year old showing some autistic tendencies.anyway...
yesterday, 2 year old (soon 3) did something minor and Dh told him to say sorry..ds refused a couple of times..Dh got very angry that he was being defied and grabbed ds, raised him in the air in front of him and shook him two or three times, shouting, until ds burst into tears.Dh thinks they need a firm hand.he came to pick them up for nursery this morning and eldest was playing up about not wanting to go out..Dh frog matched him to door, shouting and ds was cowering and trekking me did not want to go..Dh pulled them both out and they both left in tears.
they can be challenging, extremely bright and loving.
I just need a bit if affirmation that this is not ok, no matter how many nice bits can come unbeaten..

colditz Mon 15-Oct-12 22:44:49

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaken_baby_syndrome

Your children do not need family time with this man, they need to be nowhere near him, ever again.

ChablisLover Mon 15-Oct-12 22:45:10

No it's not ok to shake your son but you know that

I think you also know the answer about your estranged hubby.

Do you want to spend time with some one who is violent? It will get worse.

Get out and stay out and I would have serious concerns on visits to their dad

TaGhoulaTwinkle Mon 15-Oct-12 22:46:23

No, never ok.

sad

birdsnotbees Mon 15-Oct-12 22:46:53

That is absolutely not OK and tbh if someone did that to either of my kids I'd never let them anywhere near them again. Your poor, poor kids.

ladygoingGaga Mon 15-Oct-12 22:48:08

Jesus. No no no no no, it's not ok, go with your gut, if it felt wrong and scary for you imagine what the kids felt.

You need to tell him in no uncertain terms that he does not use physical force with your DCs ever again.

BabylonPI Mon 15-Oct-12 22:48:39

Never ever ok to shake in ANY circumstances.

Do not reconsider divorcing this "man" do everything you can to speed it up and get the hell away from him for good angry

No, not Ok. At all. Ever.

So glad to hear you are getting away from this man.
I agree, I'd have concerns about visiting.

sad

Graciescotland Mon 15-Oct-12 22:51:35

I'm a bit old school in that I don't disagree with smacking but shaking implies a loss of control/ taking your anger out on a child which is unacceptable. He could really hurt your son.

DippyDoohdah Mon 15-Oct-12 22:57:38

I have felt, actually, have known, that even though he can be wonderful with them, his discipline involves him losing control and it makes me feel sick.and confused, paranoid, doubt self. and if I think me challenging it id going to cause further tension, and, on rare occasion, have stopped self from butting in,I have felt that I have failed them.has never beat them, but certainly terrified eldest and now I feel like he has started on youngest..

gingercats Mon 15-Oct-12 22:57:56

Not ok at all, he is being a bully. You are doing the right thing divorcing him. I wouldn't let him 'look after' dc's alone. I'd make it clear the authorities as you divorce about his behaviour. All the best to you

No it is absolutely not ok. DS is now 25 and it has never been ok to shake a child, just incase he tries to tell you it was normal back in 1987 or something. It has never, ever been ok and could result in serious injury or death. I wouldn't let your H anywhere near your DC. Get legal advice and tell your representative what has been happening. It is abuse.

ChristmasKate Mon 15-Oct-12 23:16:53

Goodness no and I'm the short tempered one out of us and I stil know you mustn't grab or shake them sad

crackcrackcrak Mon 15-Oct-12 23:19:22

No. He is showing no patience and anger issues. I would be v concerned about a father losing his temper so easily sad

SirBoobAlot Mon 15-Oct-12 23:20:36

Jesus sad The shaking is disgusting, but also his attitude to the DS's seems foul. You need to call him on this now, because soon he will be spending a lot more time alone with them.

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 06:18:15

when someone said report it to authorities up thread...I can't report to social services, I work with them and I know he would then cut all contact. I am going to hugely call him on it, as well as say that I appreciate his (limited) financial support and contact with boys, but I do not want him to come home, do not trust him...do not want a physical relationship with him.in essence,I choose the boys. he is proud enough to want to finalise this by completing divorce then.still sad though...and I think he will disappear off, in time, to his country of origin

minmooch Tue 16-Oct-12 07:07:07

And if he cuts contact that would be better - you would not have to worry about your dc when they are with him in their own without you to protect them.

And this is him on his best behaviour? Trying to save your marriage? Imagine what he will be like with them when he is not in best behaviour <shudders>.

Your dc are dependent on you to keep them safe and away from a man who terrifies them.

Offred Tue 16-Oct-12 07:09:20

Agree with minmooch. I'd be frightened to let them go with him, if you don't do this the proper way you won't be able to protect them.

Chopstheduck Tue 16-Oct-12 07:21:00

The problem is though, if you don't report him, then you would be seen by ss as neglecting your children by failing to protect them sad

Can you reach some kind of agreement with him where he is not to physically touch them in any way whilst disciplining them?

We've been through the whole ss thing, a long time ago. my dh struggles with the kids at times. The rule in our house, is simply that he doesn't lay a finger on them when chastising them. Being defied does make his blood boil, but he has had to learn to deal with that and recognise that children will be children!

Fairylea Tue 16-Oct-12 07:50:40

I don't understand why you're protecting him.

Your ds is looking to you for confirmation that you are going to stand up for him because he can't do it himself... and you just sent him off with his dad !!!

Sorry but the financial and contact implications mean absolutely nothing.

He assaulted your child.

Abitwobblynow Tue 16-Oct-12 08:19:54

Shaking is very, very dangerous. If he is going to 'vent his feelings' a smack is actually less physically harmful. Shaking to a baby is like being hit by Mike Tyson (the brain bounces back and forth) and can cause brain damage.

Seriously, call the police. Even bullies need boundaries.

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 09:21:47

the police? really? it was heavy handed but he is nearly three and it was not rigorous or ongoing shaking. please don't slate me.I am not defending him but I also do not want to take their Dad away..he can be amazing with them.what if I insist he goes on a parenting course?

TiAAAAARGHo Tue 16-Oct-12 09:32:10

Shaking a three year old can still kill them. Also, if something does happen, you yourself could be implicated as an accessory for allowing it to happen. Sorry, to be blunt but you know he acts in a way that endangers your child, and regardless of how he can be at other times, the only contact he should be having with he children ( who e clearly does lot care about if he would just cut all contact) should be in a carefully monitored and assessed environment.

TiAAAAARGHo Tue 16-Oct-12 09:34:21

Also, one punch to the head can kill. The damage caused by a small amount of shaking ciuld be equally bad.

Iggly Tue 16-Oct-12 09:39:10

An amazing dad does not shake his children.

Can you be amazing when you beat your child with one hand and cuddle them with the other?

Your children are scared of their dad. That is sad. One day that might ask why you didn't protect them.

Our step dad used to beat my brother, really lay into him. I remember one incident where I was screaming at him to stop, mum whimpered pathetically but did fuck all. I have children and ask myself "why the fuck didn't she stop him?". I can't quite respect her partly because of that amongst other reasons.

HellonHeels Tue 16-Oct-12 09:40:13

He is definitely NOT 'amazing' with them - he shouts, bullies, manhandles them until they cry, they cower from him, he carries out a dangerous and terrifying assault on your youngest. In what way do any of those things make him an amazing dad?

lubeybooby Tue 16-Oct-12 09:41:22

Come on now. Do your job as a mother and protect your children.

Doesn't matter how good he can be 'sometimes' he is an ongoing danger to them so that's that I'm afraid. Supervised contact only - and not supervised by you but by SS.

mischiefmummy Tue 16-Oct-12 09:41:27

Dippy, think a moment, who will protect your DCs if he decides to 'discipline' them when he has them alone??
If you can't trust him when you're around, you sure as hell can't when he's on his own with them.
As their mother you have a duty of care to protect them, even from their father if necessary.
If SS realise you took no action you could potentially lose your DCs too!!
Please take some assertive action against your STBXH.

Chopstheduck Tue 16-Oct-12 09:43:24

DH went on a parenting course, it did help. He learned what would be more realistic expectations of the children.

Some people DO really struggle with children it's not as simple as throwing them out of the equation, people can change. I do think though, that it is up to you to make sure your children are safe, and not to put them in that situation again until you are 100% certain they are safe.

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 09:43:57

he did not punch his head though.he shook him two or three times. I would only be accessory if I did not address it and make clear boundaries...how can I refer my own children to social services?

HellonHeels Tue 16-Oct-12 09:45:57

Dippy the point people were making with the punch to the head comments was that shaking your child could cause equivalent brain damage to a punch. Have you grasped that shaking is very dangerous and can cause brain injury?

Chopstheduck Tue 16-Oct-12 09:46:26

Could you insist that he is supervised by another family member for now, rather than being alone with them. Does he have a brother, or his parents who could be around when he sees them?

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 09:55:58

chops...he has no family in this country. he will not see them supervised..if r are not together he will see them alone or not at all.
yes I do get that shaking is not at all ok.
I am taking action, I am asking and listening to your advice. I am thinking that I am going to tell him he can see them with me there but has to go on a parenting course. he won't like it but its not good enough.
I am in no way saying these behaviours make
him an amazing Dad...I was simply referring to the other bits in between, the nice times and fin hr has with them.I know my job is to protect them.
up thread someone said that if this is his best behaviour while attemptinga reunion then (sad) ..I know. I can't be with him anymore.

Offred Tue 16-Oct-12 09:58:33

I think realistically, drama about being an accessory to crimes and all that aside all that matters is your children are safe. The main complicating factor in this is that you have split up and I DON'T think you should get back together just because you are afraid he'll hurt them.

Because you aren't together and are in the process of separating you cannot be the person that helps him learn how to be safe around his children. This is why you should make use of the services and official processes because if you try to handle it yourself it will become tied in with the splitting up process in his mind and he will not be able to see it as a separate issue and/or something he needs to do something about.

He may nod in agreement and then ignore and undermine you or realise it is something that upsets you and do it more. I do agree that shaking, even if it was not a very bad shake this time is extremely dangerous and worrying.

The reason the UN wants to see an outright ban on any form of physical discipline in the uk is that people who believe in physical discipline in a state where it is sanctioned tend to escalate their behaviour and this leads to child deaths like Victoria climbie. Can you really be sure your ex has control of himself and your children are safe? It only takes a split second decision for a child to end up dead and he may not believe it is his fault if it happens as a result of something he believes he is reasonable to do.

Please don't try handling this on your own.

shesariver Tue 16-Oct-12 09:59:19

Look it doesnt how "amazing" you think he can be as a Dad if he can bully them to teh point they are scared of him and physically abuse them like this - because it is physical abuse. Im not slating you - but yes you are trying to minimise this, and you have to ask yourself why?

No-one has said he has punched them but shaking, as people have said can cause brain damage. By letting him have contact you are risking serious injury or worse to your children.

Offred Tue 16-Oct-12 10:03:59

And please stop taking on so much responsibility for him being a total crap parent. You need to expect more from him than physical violence and bothering only on his terms and focus entirely on what is good for the children. If he won't see them supervised, runs off to his own country at the drop of a hat and when he does see them shakes them in anger how the hell can you call him an amazing dad? He will always be their father but you cannot keep pretending to them an to yourself that he is something that he isn't. For all your sakes you need to see the reality and make sure your children are safe from the risks he poses to them and I don't mean stop contact necessarily but I don't mean pandering to his every whim and wish just to get him to keep seeing them either.

Chopstheduck Tue 16-Oct-12 10:05:01

'. he will not see them supervised..if r are not together he will see them alone or not at all.'

tbh, i think in that case, it really needs to be the not at all option sad It also sounds like he is trying to use the children to get at you. You also said

' I think he will disappear off, in time, to his country of origin'

which seems to imply that really, he isn;t that interested in the children at all. I think, if he is an amazing dad, he needs to accept he has made a serious and dangerous error of judgement and that he cannot be alone with the children in the meantime, and work with you to rectify the situation.

Another idea though - what about dropping them off to soft play and picking them up from him there 2 hours later? Somewhere where he is in public and the children would be safe.

Cheesecakefan Tue 16-Oct-12 10:05:57

It really isn't OK to shake him. On the other hand, lack of contact with their dad is also damaging, at least if he would learn to control himself: so is divorce, in general.
www.amazon.co.uk/Unexpected-Legacy-Divorce-Landmark-Study/dp/0786863943/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1350378090&sr=1-11
If your DH wants to stay, I would try a parenting course and anger management course first.

All the best.

amyboo Tue 16-Oct-12 10:07:59

No. It is never OK to shake a child. My DS (also 2 nearly 3) behaves like you describe in your first post sometimes. If he refuses to say sorry, or do whatever else it is we're asking, he gets sat in the corner and ignored until he is ready to come and say sorry and then we carry on playing. Rarely does it take more than a couple of minutes forhim to see sense. Toddlers and small children can be infuriating sometimes, but there is no need to behave violently or roughly with them like your DH. I would be sriously thinking twice about allowing him free access to the children.

Offred Tue 16-Oct-12 10:08:35

Chops - whether the children are safe or not doesn't depend on where he has contact but how he believes it is reasonable to behave. If he thinks it is reasonable to shake he won't necessarily modify his behaviour in public and the children won't be safe. I have seen parents like this at soft play centres who if challenged clearly believe they are totally justified and reasonable to do whatever they like to their children. Not saying this is definitely what the op's ex is like but something to worry about.

Offred Tue 16-Oct-12 10:10:20

Cheesecakefan - actually lack of contact with a dad and divorce are not shown to be damaging necessarily. There is however research which shows having a disruptive parent is what is most damaging.

BertieBotts Tue 16-Oct-12 10:12:43

OP, I'm sorry, but he CANNOT see them unsupervised... you know what he is like even when you are there, how could you ever trust him? sad Also, it needs to be someone other than you supervising, something like a contact centre, because this cannot ever happen again and he's already learnt that you will do nothing about it and will continue to let him see them.

If you work with SS you must be aware of what can happen when these things escalate, please don't stick your head in the sand. Your children need you to be afraid, and to protect them. You are not overreacting.

You would not be stopping him from seeing them if you insisted on supervision, not at all. If he then chooses to walk away, refuse to see them and go and live in another country then that is HIS choice, you are not responsible for that.

Dahlen Tue 16-Oct-12 10:12:58

Agree with everyone else that this is definitely NOT ok and that you and your DC will be far better off away from this man, no matter how nice he is when he's not being nasty.

IMO you'd be far better off reporting this to the police or to social services in case you need a record of it in the future. This does NOT mean that any investigation/proceedings will be launched because you are leaving your DH and therefore you ARE keeping your children safe. However, it will go down on record, meaning that if your H makes an attempt in the future to see the DC unsupervised, you will have proof that you have long had concerns about his behaviour. If you leave it, and he applies for unsupervised contact and you raise it then, he will simply argue that you are being spiteful and making the whole thing up.

alienreflux Tue 16-Oct-12 10:13:36

Sorry love, you need to do something to protect you children, i really think they are in danger with this man. you may be thinking 'here goes the hysteria' but seriously, even if he never hurt them (v. optimistic in IMO) he is emotionally damaging them!!! Imagine how terrifying, being lifted off the floor into the face of a massive man, shouting and shaking you??!! The helplessness and fear would be immense, please please reconsider letting him see you kids without supervision.

BertieBotts Tue 16-Oct-12 10:15:28

Sorry - lack of contact with a father who is abusive is not damaging, continuation of contact with an abusive parent is.

It is beneficial for children to have good relationships with adults who love and care for them non-abusively, whether that's dad, step-dad, grandma, aunty, etc etc. As long as they have a stable home (with one parent is still stable) there are no ill effects from something that doesn't exist!

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 10:29:02

I have already had two letters from ss in the past 2 years re: DV. once, he disappeared when I was heavily preg with DC 2 after a row..I reported him missing.a row was while ds 1 slept, this was passed by police to ss. second was after w retired and he made a lose threat to me..posted on MN and took advice to log with police..again they passed to ss and I got another letter.
if I contact them it will def be open case, that is why I am asking for other alternatives. I sit in core groups with ss most Weeks.so I know this is not ok but you have no idea of the horrors I hear and that these children are still not always removed or protected. am also scared that he will then use against me that have used alcohol as a bit of a coping mechanism..though do not get drunk.
crap.am trying to work but head in bits.do I speak to my solicitor?

Dahlen Tue 16-Oct-12 10:35:24

If SS reopen the case, would that be such a bad thing? If you leave your H, you are taking steps to safeguard your children and therefore they have nothing to reproach you for, even if they do want to monitor the situation. In fact, it could prove highly beneficial to you. Not only can they offer you lots of support and help with things like sorting out your finances, an injunction (if you need it), etc., but simply having them there in the background could have a big psychological effect, making you better able to resist your H's persuasion to drop proceedings and go back to him, and reducing your H's inclination to give you (and therefore your DC) any trouble.

SS are not the enemy and can help you. They love it when they come across a mother who is actually serious about leaving an abusive partner and protecting her DC.

SirBoobAlot Tue 16-Oct-12 11:26:40

How can you work with SS and not view this as something they need to be aware of?

He is not an amazing dad, he is a bully.

And frankly, even if you're saying he won't see them by himself, he's willing to do this in front of you.

Agree with whoever said that if you don't contact them, you will be seen as responsible for not protecting your children.

If it had been a stranger who had done this, you would have taken immediate action. The fact he is their father does not make it any different.

Abitwobblynow Tue 16-Oct-12 11:54:40

"what if I insist he goes on a parenting course?"

You are still trying to control him/the situation. You really can't.

He (because of course there is nothing wrong with him, if you were't such a bitch and the kids weren't so....) will ALWAYS resist and blame you.

That is why the police (authority in the shape of other men) work and your efforts don't.

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 12:02:02

Dahlen..I agree I could get more support from as but I also know is a bit of a lottery as to what worker you get/their perspective/opinion of you. would everyone on this thread think nothing of referring own family to a statutory body with such powers?

I have been speaking to my manager (very good, knows situation, lots of child protection experience). agreed is not ok, did not insist I had to call ss but I concluded I will speak to health visitor...am pretty sure health visitor will advise or support with social services referral...has never been enamoured with him, and made tentative remarks that if turbulent rel/his heavy parenting continued, she would consider ss.that's only when I pushed her to give me that opinion.that sounds like I am looking for someone elses permission to leave him and and affirmation that I am not being over sensitive.guess that is what I was looking for. b.c. scared of doing it alone, even with family support, and denying the boys a Dad. got to get over my own guilt

MardyArsedMidlander Tue 16-Oct-12 12:13:02

Dorothy Rowe once said that if you have a parent who abuses you, and another parent who does not protect you- you do not have one Bad parent and one Good parent, you actually have two Bad parents.
I sometimes think people forget who LONELY and powerless it is to be a child.

Your two year old is learning that Daddy can terrify him, and Mummy will do nothing. How do you think that feels like for him?
For G-ds sake, if you can't protect your children, let SS or the police do it.

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 12:17:37

why have you decided that I cannot protect my children.I have not said this is ok, I am not ignoring and I intervened when it happened..albeit calmly to stop him from escalating.
yes I am struggling to say"supervised only contact" as I know he will step away from the boys and that yoyo parenting is not much good either. but I am not saying I will just ignore this,I am saying will speak to health visitor.
resent being judged as a bad parent, mardy....that's not really fair

Lueji Tue 16-Oct-12 12:32:19

Just think of this:

He's already shaken your boys and behaved this way in front of you and everyone else.

What will he be capable of doing when he's not supervised?

Are you still that worried about him not seeing them?

I'd think it would be the least of two evils.

Lueji Tue 16-Oct-12 12:33:55

And yes, if I had seen my ex lift and shake my son, hell would break lose.

If after this you consent to unsupervised contact, you are just as bad as him.

MardyArsedMidlander Tue 16-Oct-12 12:39:15

You are saying you'll speak to your health visitor- but 'resent' her because she has alrady warned you about 'heavy/ turbulent' parenting? Does that not give you a clue that the situation is out of control?

And you had to step in 'calmly' in case the situation 'escalated'? So you don't believe that your husband can control himself with the children? If he does this in front of you, what will he do if you're not there to intervene?

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 12:47:18

Mardy..I appreciate everyone's input but I was saying directly to you that I resent you judging me as a bad parent.do not resent my health visitor at all, she has given me very balanced support and I have been very honest with her, as I intend to be now

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 12:49:56

and I meant escalated with him becoming angry with me and shouting at me in front of boys for .undermining' him.and no I would not rather him do that to them than me, I want them to have a happy and safe home...

MardyArsedMidlander Tue 16-Oct-12 12:51:29

What your husband did was a terrible thing- so I'm afraid I am going to judge. The fact that you don't really see it as such- or need some validation of this worries me.

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 12:56:24

Mardy..I appreciate everyone's input but I was saying directly to you that I resent you judging me as a bad parent.do not resent my health visitor at all, she has given me very balanced support and I have been very honest with her, as I intend to be now

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 12:58:46

I do not think it is ok but it does not make me a bad parent for checking it out and asking for support, does it? its taking me longer to get my head round it as I know all the other bits in between, so its personal and more complex for me.I do know the bottom line is protecting them

Dahlen Tue 16-Oct-12 13:16:49

Please don't get bogged down by the worry about your children suffering from yo-yo parenting from their father. The studies out now show that a completely absent father is far better than an inconsistent one and far preferable to a sometimes abusive one. It is NOT the case that being deprived of a father leads to poor outcomes in all cases. The best thing you can do for your children is to set clear, firm boundaries with your H and stick to them. If that means giving him supervised contact only which he abuses and leaves you no choice but to suspend completely, your strong, protective and decisive behaviour will be a GOOD thing for your DC to witness.

Offred Tue 16-Oct-12 14:17:02

Please stop trying to be in control of everything, this is not going to help you. I know you are aware it is not ok but people are worried you don't see how bad it is because you are still trying to manage it and him on your own and simultaneously you are constantly choosing the path of least resistance. This won't protect the children all this "I can't do x because he will do y". You need to expect a very basic level of parenting from him and if he can't or won't do that then your children will be better off if he does bugger off.

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 14:17:08

thanks for your support Dahlen..feeling sick at it all

SirBoobAlot Tue 16-Oct-12 14:44:52

An absent father is better than an abusive one.

You need to stop minimizing what he's done. I know you're concerned about him exploding (and remember this very well from past experience) but right now you need to disregard that and do what is best for your children. You cannot control this man.

When are you seeing the health visitor?

Dippy, your love and committment to your children is apparent from your posts, but I cannot disagree with those posters who suggest you need to be very obviously on your kids side and not spent time and effort justiying their dad's behaviour.

What worries me most about the scene you describes is, as you said yourself, his 'loss of control' - that's the issue: if he loses control to the point were he shakes a 3 year old, he might do worse the next time. Chances are were will be a next times. And believe you me, children do not get less challenging as they get older (mother of 4 boys here - 9years to 2 1/2 year old DS4 who quite ofted drives us all to the brink of.... something, I personally I have perfevted the art of Stepping Away from the Unreasonable Toddler).

You mentioned parenting classes which may not be a bad idea, but really he needs to look at anger management. HE needs to look at this; you cannot do it for him. If he does not see a problem with how he reacts to frustration, then no amount of you reasoning with him will help.

Has have you ever felt intimidated by him?

Sorry about typos - I swear my typing is getting worse and I am getting less and less patient enough to proofread. Apologies.

Oh and yes, I totally agree with Dahlen: it's inconsistent parenting that harms children, not not an absent father.
Your boys will of course benefit from male role models, good role models, but that can be an uncle/football trainer/scout leader. There are good men out there, honest.

Fairylea Tue 16-Oct-12 15:48:41

If another man picked up your son and shook him like that would you leave him alone with him again ?

Why should his dad have a second chance?

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 18:55:36

Thank you all of you, including the ones that were a bit heavy! To update, I spent half an hour on phone to my HV this afternoon. I told her exactly what I have told you all, and your/my 2 friends concerns. She initially said that it was not serious enough to meet the threshold for ss to take it on as a case, knowing how snowed under they are (how bad is that?? what does that say about society now..). I kind of expected this as I work with ss and know, as I said, some truely horrible cases where children still not been removed. When health visitor said that, sadly, something more serious would have to happen for ss to get involved, I was amazed, and said so. I did express the concerns that all of you have reflected and she acknowledged them but suggested the best really is to speak to solicitor about mediation. I asked her about supervised contact and she said that was for me to decide and even suggested that perhaps stbxh is more stressed/tense when i am there and can parent better if he sees 2 ds alone..but agreed that how can we know that?
Anyway, when i said that i feel i am just being totally left alone in this with no0 support, she did listen and engage me further. i told her i do sometimes lose my rag and shout at boys, which she said is never ok. But i said their dad does so, really shouts, at some point, most/every time sees them. Recalled to her a horrible road rage incident, that ss have written to me twice after rows at home and that their dad has the opinion that the ds's should be scared of him for effective parenting. Also told her that he used to talk about 'breaking' ds 1 (in reference to his spirit, though english not his first language) and that I feel ds 1 has had the most hard time from his dad..but think that he has now almost decided that ds 2 is of age and will start/has started getting harder on him too.
At this point, hv started making noises about the more she hears, the more she is thinking there is the need for a child in need or even child protection referral. She is giving me time to think and wants tom meet next week to discuss further and find out more.
I truely feel sick. I love my sons so much but have struggled with this destructive relationship for the last 3 years. It has been emotionally abusive for me too, and yes i have felt initimidated before. the list is long and will not post it, have posted before.
I feel that i have hugely dropped my standards since i met this man. He is a hypocrite that undermines my attempts at discipline and believes his way is the only way. He is scared of noone. I have spent the last couple of years preoccupied with the crappy drama of him/us, masking it all, and letting him come in and out of our lives.
I have struggled with the responsibility, as he drifts in, takes over and goes again. I have forgotten my standards and values. I do still believe I am quite a good mum, but not good enough. DS with their lovely grandparents tonight (we are so so lucky to have them, and they know everything, including whats happened today). So know I know i will have to speak to him, lay down what is totally not acceptable and MY rules from now on. I do not think it will even get to the issue of where and how he sees them, as i think he will blow up before then. Sick to the pit of my stomach, ladies sad.
So sorry about ultra long post...

Oh, Dippy, you poor thing.
I don't know your backstory, but it does not sound happy.
I hope your face-to-face meeting with the HV will be more productive.

IME mediation is a great way forward when both parties want to reach an agreement on finances/access to children etc. NOT to rectify somebody's idea of parenting, particularly when he thinks he is in the right hmm. Do you have legal advice? Thought about phoning Childline for advice?

Children need to respect their parents, not fear them. Parents should be Safe, always. What is it with some men/people (usually men)??

Have you had a look around here on threads about emotionally abusive relationships? I don't know that that is what you are dealing with, but might be worth a gander.

SirBoobAlot Tue 16-Oct-12 19:32:42

You were very brave today, and I hope you are proud of yourself. You also did entirely the right thing.

I'm glad you've got tonight to talk to STBXH without worrying about the children being in the house too. Just be aware that, from everything you've said, there is a strong possibility that he will not listen or absorb a word you have to say about it. That doesn't make you wrong, it just furthers the point that he is an arse.

Big un-MN hugs.

MolotovBomb Tue 16-Oct-12 19:34:51

No. Not okay sad Your poor babies - he either needs to stop treating them this way, or he can't see his sons, for your boy's safety.

So sorry for you sad

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 19:35:02

pacific, thanks. Yes I have been on EA threads and read a very good book about EA (lundy Bancroft). You are right, but I have decided that I am putting to rest my issues with his treatment of me and them and just focusing on his impact on them. I need to get positive control back with my sons. When they have seen a dark eyed, irate man yelling in their face, even my 'shouting' ..raised voice, not rage..does nothing. Worried they are desensitised as he set the bar too high (low). don't get me wrong, it has not been a hell hole here and we have lived apart for approx 2 years so they have had lots of nice times with me and my family. Pacific, you are right, mediation will not address his parenting style and values

madda Tue 16-Oct-12 19:35:04

keep them safe op, and yourself

look at it this way, would he shake his boss or colleague at work? If not, why the heck is he allowed to shake his own flesh and blood?

who else have your kids got to protect them, apart from you?

you sound like you are doing all you can. Telling people in RL is a good step.

get yourself something to eat and light a candle. Then sleep.

You can get through this.

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 19:42:09

AAh. 4 yr old just called me from G parents to say night night..he got star of the day for being so cooperative and caring. So lovely, so proud. not trying to deflect the rubbish going on, just lovely to share smile
Not heard from stbxh, will maybe be tomorrow day that we speak (churning stomach)..

madda Tue 16-Oct-12 19:43:42

oh dippy, your DS sounds adorable

do have a quiet evening to yourself, get some food, rest up.

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 19:46:45

thanks sir boob, madda. madda..er..yes he would treat a collegue like that. Held a knife to his throat or strangled him, unbelievably cannot remember which. too many stories from him. no police involvement, thats not how he and his (cash in hand and bit dodgy) colleagues do it.
Know that is even worse and I do take your point, obviously!!does not excuse anything, nada

madda Tue 16-Oct-12 20:01:21

ah ok
then at least you know you are even more validated to get your DCs (and you!) out of there

and if your HV knows he is capable of such behaviour to adults...then surely she can set the wheels in motion?

i dont think you deserve this level of unpredictability in your life. Honestly.

robotsatemywashing Tue 16-Oct-12 21:48:54

Personally I would report him to SS myself. I have had to do this in the past.
My STBXH hit one of our dc round the face, I was suffering some kind of ongoing PTSD (if that makes sense) and blanked it out. I later mentioned it when having counselling, it got referred to SS. SW came round and did an assessment on our family, all fine, case closed.

BUT

Because I work in education I was told that I could lose my job for not reporting it immediately as it calls into question my ability to safeguard children in a professional capacity. SS could ask for a Position Of Trust meeting with me, my employers and the police to discuss my ability to safeguard children in general.

Now I ring SS immediately if the dc's mention anything negative about their dad because I will not lose my career due to his mistakes.

I'm not sure what your role is exactly, in terms of your job, but this may be relevant to you.

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 22:09:19

robots...I thought my manager would have perhaps raised something that, but not at all.and my health visitor is well aware of which partnership agency I work in..again, not an issue.I know, with them, there is some understanding that its harder to see the wood for the trees with your own situation, and that is what I said to the health visitor,I need some outside support and validation.
having heard nothing from stbxh, I can hazard a guess that he thinks am being silly and will contact me at the weekend when he thinks I may have 'calmed down'

sashh Wed 17-Oct-12 06:39:01

Dippy

In your job have you come accross any abused women? The excuses you are making are all the same ones:

He's not always like this
He just lost his temper
He is fantastic at other times

He is an abuser, and you, at the moment, are an enabler.

I grow up witha parent who could be wonderful and in the next breath be vile. I lived my childhood in terror because I never knew when the bad side would arrive.

Please, for your children, stop contact.

robotsatemywashing Wed 17-Oct-12 09:01:31

I think that your manager and HV are under-reacting. They have a duty of care and should be referring all concerns, not deciding what info to pass on, to SS.

If I was you, I would cover my back and ring SS myself. And I would not be letting him have unsupervised contact with the children either.

How have things been today, Dippy?
I've been thinking about you.

Twimpo Wed 17-Oct-12 22:27:04

Absolutely unacceptable, I would have knocked my husband out if he had done that to one of my kids.

ThingsThatGoBumpInTheNight Thu 18-Oct-12 03:13:55

Absolutely unacceptable, I would have knocked my husband out if he had done that to one of my kids.

^^ Same here

Sorry you're going through this, dippy

I would give SS a call and ask their advice. x

DippyDoohdah Thu 18-Oct-12 15:41:51

thanks.spoke to health visitor again and agreed that ss really would not take this on where I live.some of u ladies may think am underplaying butI do know what their caseloads consist of. she suggested that I write a contract for him to understand and agree to regarding treatment of children and contact.I did and approached it gently.he accepts his behaviour was completely unacceptable and looks like a worn and ill man who knows things are slipping away.not asking for your sympathy there, just stating a fact.
am meeting with h v next week again as she wants to know more, basically that I am being protective, which I am.he now knows that any further shouting, touching when angry, can lead to stopping contact. I have not broached issue of up coming decree nisi yet as that will to him over the edge and I don't want that for anyone, especially the boys

cestlavielife Thu 18-Oct-12 16:03:50

what will happen when he tips over the edge?
what will you do to protect the dc?
you cant control his reaction.

DippyDoohdah Thu 18-Oct-12 22:08:47

of course I know I can't control his reaction but I tell him when the boys are not there.its me he will be angry with, but I think he is becoming more resigned to our split

DippyDoohdah Thu 18-Oct-12 22:10:47

when I say I don't want that for the boys,I mean the fall out or him not seeing them for a while, confusing them...

Sioda Thu 18-Oct-12 22:48:55

A contract? Seriously?! Between an abused partner and a violent thug. So the plan is to rely on your 4 year old to report breaches of it to you? Why are you taking advice from a HV anyway? And talking about parenting courses? He's a violent criminal who tried to kill someone. It's a little beyond HV's and parenting courses. Your HV may be very nice and supportive but she's also just not very good. He will continue to do whatever the hell he wants to your children when he's alone with them. That's why he won't accept supervised contact. Of course he says his behaviour was unacceptable - he's not stupid, he'll say what he needs to say to keep contact. Do you really think that that's all it takes for someone to stop being violent and abusive? That they just wake up one day, admit they've been naughty and decide to stop?

You know he's violent to your children, you know they're frightened of him. That's all you need to know. Yet you continue to fail to protect them. They're not confused and if they were I dare say they'd choose confusion over intimidation if they had a choice. They don't need family time with this man. No father is far better than a violent and frightening one. They need you to protect them. Not hide behind what some random HV tells you to do. Surely what you need is a counsellor to help you get past the abuse you've been subjected to by this man, to help you to trust your own judgement again, stop looking for outside validation, stop focusing on him and what he might do, and assert yourself. Please branch out from this daft HV business for your kids' sakes if nothing else.

DippyDoohdah Thu 18-Oct-12 23:03:26

I am seeing a counsellor and have had long session with her today.again, she can see the complexities. I will sound like I am making excuses but the incident with his colleague was an incident, was not towards children and he did not try and kill him, it was their awful macho 'way' where they come from..still utterly demonstrative of his values though.
in child protection cases, parents sign contracts and they are no more legally binding.and am not relying on my sons to tell me, as I will be there at contact until I see fit/he disappears...which I think he will.at present, stbxh has a good legal aid solicitor, and if I am not careful around contact now, she willhave the boys spending whole weekends with him. I have spoken to three different solicitors about him and some of these past incidents.it is here day and I cannot prove it and say it will not be enough. I am posting for support and have had some good ideas and help but please can some people stop being so quick to judge me as not protecting my children.judging without all the facts is not fair judgement.

Mumsyblouse Thu 18-Oct-12 23:31:27

Dippy, I do remember your back-story. I'm not going to repeat it here, it's just awful. I feel very sad that you are still with this man, or at least, still playing happy families in the hopes that it all turns out well. I'm even sadder that his aggressive behaviour (which has been mainfest in every country in which he has lived, in every context) is now coming into your children's lives. This is not surprising, you know what kind of man he is and you need to get him the hell out of yours and your children's lives.

The threat is if you are not there, he won't see the children. Great, this is the best outcome for everyone. Stop saying he's a good dad some of the time, again, I don't intend to list the reasons he's not dad of the year, but he isn't, he just isn't and you do know this deep down.

I don't think people are being quick to judge, more trying to encourage you to continue down the path of divorce and moving him out of your lives, and not to continue to make excuses for him (of course, he's ill and sad now you have called him to account, I'm sure he wasn't when picking up his own child and shaking him). I know you feel sorry for him, I know you loved him once/still do perhaps, but you have to get away for your own sanity and your children's safety. Nothing you have said makes me think this is going to be a one-off, he's moving from the older one to the younger, please protect them.

I suspect unfortunately that your colleagues see the professional you (which is a great side) and are reacting to stereotypes about other professionals which is leading them to miss the abuse and seriousness of the situation you are in. No amount of happy days out will make up for these awful experiences, something like that plants itself indelibly in your mind.

YOu don't need SS to protect your children, this is just a measure of how scared you are that you prefer the authorities to step in and make a child protection plan rather than you set down boundaries with your husband. You are terrified about him finding out that your happy family is actually getting a decree nisi very soon. If I were you, I would call a halt to this fantasy now and ring Women's Aid and get some more concrete advice on how to protect yourself and your children when he finds out what is going to happen.

Sioda Thu 18-Oct-12 23:35:31

Sorry I didn't realize you were present during all contact with him. From your previous posts it sounded like he was having unsupervised contact. As far as your evidence problem goes, have any of the solicitors suggested getting a report from a child psychologist? It's extremely expensive and I don't know if it's covered by some kind of legal aid but it would be really helpful here. In fact it's the only way to 'prove' the way he behaves with them. Has anyone else observed his behaviour with them? Anyone who could back up your account? Could you engineer a friend or relative to be around to witness it? Even a biased third party is better than none.The health visitor seems to have expressed concerns in the past, has she witnessed or been told anything by him that would help? Any police reports of previous incidents?

It's not hearsay evidence when you go into court and describe the incidents that you've seen. It is your word against his but that's not at all the same thing. When it's your word against his it's simply a matter of who the judge believes. They make judgment calls like that all the time. Your account is likely to be far more plausible than his because you're telling the truth. If you had a child psychologist report backing you up or any third party evidence that would of course really help.

I think you're overestimating the importance of his good solicitor. She can only work with what she has and you seeking to restrict his contact on the basis of his abuse doesn't give her any grounds for getting more contact for him. Of course you need to be careful around contact but you can do that by getting yourself a better solicitor than his and getting evidence together. I wouldn't rely on him leaving the country and you supervising all contact can't be good for you.

DippyDoohdah Fri 19-Oct-12 08:58:11

I will post more later, I don't know what to do.my solicitor is good but has already cost me thousands and I have run out of money.I am not entitled to legal aid.not is he but as he works cash in hand he claims legal aid anyway.so if I block contact, he can take me to court and I will struggle to defend it. I maybe will call womans aid but alot on on next couple of days so not sure when.also a friend of mine had a similar situation minimised by them. I also might go through the thread and write down some of the observations and try to explain to him why its going to be contact supervised by me.I know that's not great for me but my counsellor has helped me work to the point where I do not want him as a partner, but would like the boys to have limited and positive experiences of their father.any negatives, and I will change contact to a centre our stop it.I hate this so much.you would not believe what well adjusted happy boys I have though.
thanks for posting Mumsy, you spoke a lot of sense..yes it is sad and yes I am scared

ThingsThatGoBumpInTheNight Sat 20-Oct-12 00:27:50

This is where family courts go wrong fgs

You have to have money to prevent someone who could harm your kids from having contact whereas he has free legal aid to help him to force you to allow him to see them

Has the CAFCASS Officer (guardian ad litem) not met the children yet and prepared a report??

Surely they should be on your side and their recommendations should reflect that

I don't know if you could get the children their own solicitor to represent their interests, as its private family court and i have not much idea in that area, may be worth checking out

One way or another the children have to be protected against harm

LewisFan Sat 20-Oct-12 00:55:24

Dippy, why not ring the LSCB and ask a hypothetical "would this meet your threshold / be actioned" about your situation? be absolutely honest with the history and updates and see what Social Care say?

Do you know your local Safeguarding office? Ring them - lie, pretend it's someone else...?

I am struggling to see that Social Care would ignore it - it's gone past the CAF and is definitely over the TAC stage.... I really can't see how they would ignore what you've put here. Your son has been assaulted and is constantly emotionally abused. That is damaging, as is witnessing your distress and suffering abuse too...

Just try a referral. At least try...? I know the form is long and painful (also work in the sector) but at least you could say to your boys "I tried..."

hebetrayedme Sat 20-Oct-12 19:38:08

You know it's not ok. He could seriously hurt your child, and certainly emotionally damage him.

DippyDoohdah Sun 21-Oct-12 09:20:50

I am thinking that I could say to him that I am to finalise the divorce because of all the past with the two of us, all the extreme behaviours hr has told me of his past/incidents since have known him and because of the issues with him and the boys. I will day that because of all of that I will have to be st contact, unless he wants it to be my parents or a contact centre. if he threatens his solicitor then I can say I will take it to ss, which I would. I reiterate, I work with ss and know situations that would horrify you where the children still not removed

Badvoc Sun 21-Oct-12 09:25:57

You are enabling this man to physically hurt your children.
Now think about the excuses you will give e children they are older, or to their partners who they abuse thinking its ok?
Ffs....

DippyDoohdah Sun 21-Oct-12 14:17:55

where us it written that swearing at people is supportive. not helpful in any way.it was once and I am being present when they see him, why have you got such an issue with that- bad voc? I do not intend to let there be a repeat incident

DippyDoohdah Sun 21-Oct-12 14:41:35

can someone please tell me what, in my present situation,I am doing that is so offensive.I am giving children opportunity to have some nice, safe time with Dad, instead of ripping him out of their lives and causing a load of chaos and confrontation.and, yes, keeping it all a bit safe and calm as I can. yes. guilty of that

OpheliasWeepingWillow Sun 21-Oct-12 14:48:55

Sweet lord. Based on your OP (have not read thread) I would have called the police. WTAF? Seriously? You have to ask if this is unreasonable?

OP - your job is to PROTECT your children

Offred Sun 21-Oct-12 14:49:26

I think people are worried that he doesn't respect you or the children and it hasn't actually mattered when you supervised the contact before, he has still hurt them and has not had any consequences or learned any lessons. I think also it is worrying that you are still trying to do it all by yourself when he is abusive and dangerous to all of you. You really are not doing them favours by supervising contact yourself. I think you also aren't doing them any favours by protecting them from knowing how crap he is i.e. tiptoeing round him so that he still comes to see them.

Offred Sun 21-Oct-12 14:50:16

I think you've lost perspective on how bad this is, maybe because of your job.

hebetrayedme Sun 21-Oct-12 14:53:33

The time with him is not safe. HE SHOOK YOUR 2 YEAR OLD. Stop contact and see a solicitor. It is abuse, as well you know if you work with social workers.

OpheliasWeepingWillow Sun 21-Oct-12 14:53:41

Agree with Offred. You need to escalate this OP. Stop contact for a start

Offred Sun 21-Oct-12 14:56:11

I don't think you should use ss as a threat either - speaking to them is either necessary or not. Besides I don't think it would work: the whole problem is that he doesn't think he is being unreasonable isn't it?

OpheliasWeepingWillow Sun 21-Oct-12 14:57:47

Exactly. You cannot ever change him, contracts or supervised access included. He sounds like a nasty intimidating thug

As has been said before, an absent father is better than an abusive one. Your dc will not thank you for prolonging their relationship with a man who frightens them.

DippyDoohdah Sun 21-Oct-12 21:20:53

ok.we saw him this afternoon.it started lovely and ended awful.he gave me money then I had to use it to take it out.flame me and yell at me now.I agreed to soft play pub.boys played, we had some wine.anaesthetic for me.I knew what needed to be done.but for an hour our so I went down memory lane and boys played happily. I told myself you were all drama queens and I was ok, boys were ok. then youngest hurt his arm in soft play.stbxh cuddled etc but ultimately looked annoyed and that ss was looking for attention.I was thinking hospital? and wow how quick health visitor would be onto us then if presented at a and e with dislocated arm!..would not have stopped me, but he got better, has happened before and have had hospital advice.not at hands of Dad, hasten to add. anyway, I went to loo.came back and stbxh is pointing in face of older ds and doing his glaring dark eyes.I wanted to shout "enough"..when d went to play,stbxh started ranting about how he was to go and threaten his boss tonight and I just started to question his logic, his values.obviously did not go down well.I heard him, mid rant.in front of waiters, saying to me to not answer back or I will see what happens when I do. I saw he was knocking drinks back and basically told him to go and I would arrange a way home for me and boys. my lovely Dad turned up to get us.rightly or wrongly, I told him he could only see the boys with me there and that if he challenged me legally,I would contact ss. he calmed a bit then and said never contact ss, we can sort contact between us. this is after he said, at least 3 times this evening, that he will never see boys again. hooray I hear you all shout.but I heard him, saw him look me in the eye and tell me I am building all this up, that I have a problem.saw the text he set my Dad thanking him for picking me and boys up and sorry that it came to that....can see him thinking that an basically a bit mad, and am feeling that I am.I take what you have ask said, but I don't know how to stand up to this, he is so confident and charismatic.makes me feel am going mad.help me

DippyDoohdah Sun 21-Oct-12 21:47:13

I don't want to go to work I want to hide for a few days.if I had some time,I could anonymous call ss

DippyDoohdah Sun 21-Oct-12 22:13:07

I love my sons far more than I could have loved him

LewisFan Sun 21-Oct-12 22:34:41

Dippy the very people who CAN help you in REAL LIFE are Social Care. You KNOW that.

Call them.

During your lunch hour, or take the day off sick, if your partner isn't around

You are NOT MAD. He is making you feel this way - he is controlling everything still.

Remember, this is the most vulnerable time for you all so whatever you do; stay safe.

Call Social Care tomorrow, please.

hebetrayedme Mon 22-Oct-12 19:22:06

Social Care are unlikely to intervene yet. YOU need to act by stopping contact. That's what they will tell you.

Offred Mon 22-Oct-12 19:34:17

Look, you are not mad. It doesn't matter what your dad believes or thinks. I really wish you would listen that all this pussyfooting around and pandering to him is not helping, you are just enabling him to harm your children and prolonging the misery. He needs to be presented with a choice to change and begin acting in their best interests or to bugger off. This does not have to be as dramatic as it sounds, it can be gradual but you cannot supervise the contact. There is just no way it will work. You need space from him to heal, he won't listen to you when you try to stick up for the children and it will make him worse, make him focus on you being the problem in his mind rather than his terrible behaviour. Get some separation, he needs to be told by "the system" that what he is doing isn't ok, if he is going to fight anything then it will be the system rather than you and it will help protect the children a little bit and please, please, please don't drink wine in the pub with the children when he is there; you a. Need to keep your wits about you, b. need to make sure he is not drinking at contact which you cant if you drink too and c. Know what "the system" will say about that, you need to be whiter than white and as together as you can be.

Opentooffers Mon 22-Oct-12 20:10:20

So I hope you now realise how stressful supervising these visits would be for you, so why take that task on? Looking through the thread there seems a fixation here that you know you 'have to' supervise him. But you don't, so just don't now you've tried it and it hasn't worked - he still shouted and finger waved in your DS face. You fear him, that's understandable as he is so nasty. Sorry if it seems harsh to say, but as you cannot and do not and have not stood up to him for a long time now, what use are you as a supervisor? Arrange for someone else to do it in an official capacity, or no visits at all.

Opentooffers Mon 22-Oct-12 20:22:33

Plus I suggest you cut out the drinking if it is so mind-altering that it makes you decide we are all "drama queens". Seems odd to be drinking in a bar while the kids play on there own as a suggested 'visit', where's the interaction from Dad during that? These are places adults go for a rest and a chat whilst the kids go off and play by themselves, hardly quality time spent together. It makes me wonder if alcohol is factor generally too - mood swings, flash anger - would explain a few things.

DippyDoohdah Tue 23-Oct-12 09:50:24

the several posts above are all right..I know that.an seeing health visitor today.I know I was wrong to drink and I can see that alcohol creeping back in as his current drug of choice. he told me I am focusing on the negatives and blowing out of proportion the past. I have stood up to him, but he hates it and will not back down to anyone.seeing health visitor later, feel sick all over again

DippyDoohdah Tue 23-Oct-12 10:11:59

right. I called ss just now.I told them everything and I gave them my details.she said does not meet child protection criteria but is emotional and domestic abuse and I have to act now.so I will stop supervising contact, he can see them at a contact centre and I will request, through my solicitor, that he attends a parenting and anger management course.of he refuses these, he is opting to not see them.am also self referring to freedom programme.

hebetrayedme Tue 23-Oct-12 10:19:27

Well done you. A very brave step.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 10:24:38

Well done dippy, it will be hard but by stepping out a little bit you'll let someone else hopefully take some of the strain of it and you'll be able to get support for you. X

olgaga Tue 23-Oct-12 10:35:14

Have lurked on here for a while. Just wanted to say you are a brave woman Dippy, but rather too forgiving for your own good. I also think that your professional experience has perhaps clouded your instincts in this personal matter.

As your children grow and they become even more verbal and annoying, the risk to them will also increase.

I am pleased you have taken action now before the danger to them escalates further.

Please don't give this man any more chances.

cestlavielife Tue 23-Oct-12 11:26:37

well done for taking action - you ahve seen how you supervising it goes wrong. he needs to be seeing them properly supervised where the contact centre people can see how he is and report to SS.
you are on a long road...it aint gonna be easy but stick to your guns so your dc can be safe and see him safely.

Jux Tue 23-Oct-12 11:31:59

Stay strong now, Dippey. You have done the right thing now, and you need to stay on this path.

He is a very dangerous man, and fwiw, I really do think that you will all be much better off if he is completely out of your lives forever.

Please call the police if he kicks off again, though I hope he never gets the opportunity to do so when any of you are there.

DippyDoohdah Tue 23-Oct-12 11:42:03

thank you all for your support, will update for a bit as it spurs me on getting the support, thank you. I have been guilty of focusing on the good and not the bad and it has been a very emotionally abusive relationship ever since children born.think he wanted me all to himself, but that will never happen and I am starting to feel ok with that now.I am sure that as the distance grows I will go through lots of different emotions about how I let it get to this. really hope I get on the freedom programme,I called a few Weeks ago and nothing back, have just called again.
its one of my sons birthdays this week..is 5.do I write a card and gift from Daddy or just leave it?

cestlavielife Tue 23-Oct-12 11:51:27

jsut write a card from you .

if he wants to send him a card he can.
you not together any more.

Mumsyblouse Tue 23-Oct-12 12:12:33

Dippy- well done, I am delighted you have taken action, now keep going!

This man is scary, when anyone challenges him (so in his personal life, work life with colleagues, out in public, you, the children now) he gets aggressive and violent, and believes this to be his right (these ARE his values).

Please stay safe and do exactly as the social worker told you: go through with the divorce, offer him contact centre (his choice if he doesn't use it) and never put youself in a situation like that again, don't be alone with him. All contact through solicitors.

He is scary though, you have always downplayed this, and if you feel unsafe, call the police.

Good luck.

dippyDoohdah Sat 17-Nov-12 14:12:31

it's pathetic bit I still feel part of me loves him.I miss him, especially at weekends although he was not around much then as he usually worked.why can't I just hate him like other people can hate xp? am trying to get back into church and that frame of mind, but then I think about forgiveness and it makes me wobble.l need some of you that know of me to shout at me please.decree nisi in 2 Weeks, no ounce of me feels happy about that.shouts, please

PermanentlyOnEdge Sat 17-Nov-12 18:09:24

Bumping. I only saw this for the first time today, but will happily shout. Your situation unhappily mirrors my own although I believe mine is a more watered down version which leaves me struggling even more with the idea of leaving.

You have got this far. Don't waver.

dibs78 Sat 17-Nov-12 18:37:07

I only read half way through posts but wanted to comment on the original post. If my dh did the same to my dc- who is also nearly 3....I would walk away. I would never, ever allow him to see them again. It doesn't matter if the child was actually hurt as a result (if not this time, they will be hurt one day)....the fact is I could never allow my children to be treated so nastily and badly. In my opinion it is assault- would you continue to allow the child to see a friend who did this to them?? A teacher?? Well why allow the father to continue contact if there is any chance he'll do this again. Your poor children- they must be so scared sad

dibs78 Sat 17-Nov-12 18:44:26

Just read most recent posts- well done op! Good luck

tasmaniandevilchaser Sat 17-Nov-12 19:16:49

dippy just come to this thread, I think you are pretty amazing. You've had lots of good advice so I won't repeat it but I will just say -

You can forgive him, that doesn't mean you can't get divorced, that doesn't mean you have to let him see the DC unsupervised and not protect your DC. He is a damaged person, and he has the potential to damage you and your DC, even more. Go back and read the Lundy Bancroft book others have recommended.

I have read the whole thread and it seems to me that a decree nisi is fantastic news. Seriously if I knew you in RL, we'd be having champagne when that decree nisi comes through. You can properly start to re build your life.

dippyDoohdah Sat 17-Nov-12 21:17:07

tasmanian thanks..er, it would have to be Shloer as am having some T total time as all this in the last 2 years left me with an overreliance on vino blush. Don't feel like much of a hero though, health visitor and co suggested I should let him start to have a couple of hours unsupervised contact at weekends, so has started. Boys seem happy with it and at least they get a very part time positive experience of their dad. He won't be around that long though i think, sadly/not sadly (depends how u /I view it) as he already turned up late and dropped back early last Sunday and i really think his end plan will be to go back to middle east. I have started Triple P course to give me extra back up in those single mum aaaagh moments!And gone back to Church (great support network) and done a detox. So not bad, my emotional wobble earlier was just that..because i know am doing handover tomoro 9avoided it last week, parents helped) but i know he is too damaged and too selfish - its just like divorcing a third son really!
permanently - have you got a thread? You say yours is a watered down version, but I underplayed loads for ages...
dibs thanks..you might think am nuts though now, but I do think short sessions are ok. Its a burger and a walk round town/park..I think he got tense as I was there (am not accepting any responsibility though)..some people mayberate me but i have had to weigh it on balance..

tasmaniandevilchaser Sun 18-Nov-12 19:08:22

Hi, I'd be on the shloer as well as I'm pg so that works out fine! Sounds like you are really getting it together with course, detox and support network at church.

dippyDoohdah Sun 18-Nov-12 20:31:39

thanks Tasmanian, and big congrats and wishes for you all x

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