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Fantasies of turning the tables on abusive DH

(356 Posts)
Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 13:17:46

My DH is sometimes physically abusive.

About twice a year or so (almost invariably alcohol related) he will lose his temper push me, pull my hair, scream in my face, pin me down, intimidate me an in the most extreme scenario has choked me (momentarily) ad held a knife at my eye level.

The rest of the time he is extremely affectionate, loving and kind. As they are.

This weekend he went out with the lads and got utterly wasted and rolled in at 5am. I don't mind this and occasionally do the same myself on a night out with the girls. What I did mind is I asked him to do 2 simple things - not to lose the bank card because it is the only way we had of paying for anything and to make sure he kept enough cash for the taxi because we didn't have any in the house.

Needless to say he came back without cash or card. Plus his shirt was ripped as he ha been fighting. I was not best pleased.

So the next morning at about lunchtime I woke him and gave him a bitchy and sarcastic piece of my mind. Whereat he shouted at me, grabbed me, pinned me on the bed and choked me. Then said it was my fault for pushing his buttons (hollow laugh).

Yes I know I should leave him but I won't be for a huge number of reasons I won't go into.

The point of this post is, has anyone else, having been in this position, had subsequent fantasies where they drug and tie up their partner and then when they wake up do exactly to them what they did to you?

He has apologized, begged forgiveness, says he will never touch me again blah blah blah. But lying in bed last night all I could think of was how much I wanted to see HIM lying there helpless while I scream in his face with a knife in my hand and choke him until he can't breathe and show him just how it feels to be helpless and afraid and completely powerless to make it stop. I want him to see hate and viciousness in my face and to feel visceral fear.

And I want to do it so much I almost feel like I could.

I have forgiven, made allowances, tried to love him and understand how his abusive childhood has damaged him, I have paid for his therapy and medication, I have moved on and put these things behind me so many times. Now, all of a sudden, I don't want to do that any more. I don't want to leave him, for me the good currently does actually outweigh the bad. But I do want to punish him and show him how it feels.

Is it just me?

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 08-Oct-12 13:23:15

I think you're an idiot for sticking around. What's the point fantasising about revenge when you're prepared to carry on being his punch-bag? You say you don't want to forgive any more but, by staying, you're condoning his behaviour

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 08-Oct-12 13:25:31

BTW... the best form of revenge would be to report him to the police. They tend to be far less sentimental.

Porcel Mon 08-Oct-12 13:25:40

He'll kill you eventually, you know.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 13:27:17

So no one else has these fantasies? Has anyone actually done it? How did it feel?

MorrisZapp Mon 08-Oct-12 13:28:50

No relationship can survive when the parties involved punish each other. Either its so bad you end the relationship, or you talk it through and then move on.

Given that your own situ involves physical abuse, nobody here could possibly advise you to stay with him and punish him. It's your decision, but you are v unlikely to get support with it on here.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 13:29:05

It's not that I want revenge as such - so getting him arrested or any other form of "punishment" wouldn't do. I actually want to show him exactly how it feels to be in that position.

Porcel Mon 08-Oct-12 13:29:32

Course people have done it - they're the women in prison serving life sentences after years of abuse.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 13:30:56

Of course I'm not looking for "support" in the sense that anyone is going to say "yeah go in tie him up and give him a whack" I'm not a cretin! I just wondered if this feeling was normal in the circumstances or if I'm just particularly bloodthirsty and vindictive.

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 08-Oct-12 13:31:39

"Has anyone actually done it?"

Are you for real? Are you actually expecting someone to bowl up here and say 'oh yes, I plunged a knife in the nasty fucker's back...'?

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 13:32:54

Good point Porcel.

I doubt I WOULD do it. But I am morbidly preoccupied with the thought at the moment. Maybe I will just tell him I want to. I wonder what he would say.

CailinDana Mon 08-Oct-12 13:33:01

Revenge fantasies are totally normal, I think everyone has them at some stage. However if you're having these fantasies about the one person in your life who should be your main support and partner, then that is totally fucked up.

Do you have children with this idiot?

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 08-Oct-12 13:33:46

You are particularly bloodthirsty and vindictive in the way a muzzled dog snarls at its vicious master. i.e. because you are choosing to stay with your abuser, the only way you can find some peace of mind is to fantasise about lashing out. Why do that to yourself when, unlike a dog, you could simply walk away, make a new life and not have to think about him every again?

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 13:34:03

No of course not! And I said I wanted to SCARE him and make him feel threatened and powerless and terrified not actually INJURE him.

colditz Mon 08-Oct-12 13:34:53

tHE FEELLING IS NORMAL, AND WHAT'S MORE THESE REVENGE FANTASIES WON'T GO AWAY UNTIL YOU ARE OUT OF THE ABUSIVE SITUATION.

bECAUSE YOU SEE, YOU ARE STILL IN AN ABUSIVE SITUATION. hE'S BEING NICE NOW, BUT THAT'S BECAUSE HE'S GETTING HIS OWN WAY. ONCE HE ISN'T GETTING HIS OWN WAY, ALL HELL WILL BREAK LOOSE, YOU KNOW THIS AND ARE SUPPRESSING YOUR NATURAL BEHAVIORAL RESPONSES. hENCE THE REVENGE FANTASIES/

alienreflux Mon 08-Oct-12 13:34:59

oh revenge i can understand how you want him to feel those awful feelings,but why? in the hope that he will comprehend and not do it to you again? or because you hate him and want him to suffer?
Don't think you need telling that your relationship is dysfunctional to the extreme, and will end up in him killing/maiming you or you flipping your lid, and killing/maiming him.
Do you have kids in the house?

MissHuffy Mon 08-Oct-12 13:35:29

When I was a child I used to be present when my dad behaved like this to my mum. I used to dream about waiting until he was asleep and killing him. Nice for a child to carry that around...

If you have children, think what you're teaching them by staying.

By the way, my dad did try to kill my mum... She finally left.

Dryjuice25 Mon 08-Oct-12 13:37:04

" the good currently outweigh the bad"

I vehemently disagree. What can ever compensate for someone choking you? I'm actually terrified for you op. Get out now....or you will be carried out. Please leave him , you can't change him, no one can. This man is dangerous ....and look what he has done to you. Right now you should be fantasize about a future free of abuse and danger. You are a nice person who has been reduced to his standards. It's not healthy, please walk out/call women's aid.

Good luck

Porcel Mon 08-Oct-12 13:37:20

And if you're seriously considering getting violent with him, bare in mind he's likely to just up his own violence in response. One of you is going to get very hurt here, probably you.

EldritchCleavage Mon 08-Oct-12 13:37:23

Probably someone in his life HAS made him feel threatened and powerless and terrified and he is acting out a weird kind of revenge/exorcism by doing it to you.

Don't indulge these fantasies, or you'll get stuck in the same damaged mindset as your husband. Just leave him to it. If you must have a revenge fantasy, image his face when you finally, calmly, leave him to face his demons alone.

janelikesjam Mon 08-Oct-12 13:37:28

Revenge Fantasies is an interesting concept. I think some of it is natural in terms of "natural justice" e.g. in a way thats why people are punished by the criminal justice system. I think protecting oneself is a laudable project (otherwise we would all be doormats). However, it seems to me one of the problems with revenge is that it is some time "after the fact or the act" and so has to be treated more carefully IMO.

Tip 1 - find a way to "get out of the way" with dignity and self-respect.
Tip 2 - revenge is a dish best served cold i.e. not lashing out, but with your own power and dignity in tact.
Tip 3 - if someone is really nasty and insane, they are in their own miserable world. Best to find somewhere nicer to live for yourself and leave them to it, hence the saying living well is the best revenge.

I don't know where that leaves you OP with your husband though. Such violence and violence revenge fantasies, I don't know what to say.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 13:37:41

I just don't want to feel like a fucking victim.

I used to cower and sob. Now when he does it I just look him straight in the eye and say "this behavior is utterly unacceptable. You are just like your step father. Stop NOW". Which of course provokes him but I will NOT fucking cry and curl up in a ball. He won't make me.

MummytoKatie Mon 08-Oct-12 13:40:01

If you got him arrested and sent to prison that is almost certainly what would happen to him. And you would be safe. Sounds win win to me.

CailinDana Mon 08-Oct-12 13:40:02

The only way to stop feeling like a victim is to stop letting him do this to you. By staying with him you are telling him can treat you like utter shit and you'll just come back for more. There's nothing that screams "victim" louder than that.

janelikesjam Mon 08-Oct-12 13:40:04

And I agree with Colditz really ...

WilfredToadflax Mon 08-Oct-12 13:41:07

I'm sure that revenge fantasies in this situation are normal, however, I can't believe there are any reasons that outweigh the abuse that mean you should stay.

The very fact that you're having these fantasies should be a sign that you've had enough, and you need to part company.
Him having an abusive childhood is a reason for his behaviour, but it certainly doesn't excuse it. Do you want your dc's partners of the future using the same excuses for their behaviour? Because as long as you stay, they (assuming you have dc that is) will assume this is normal.

Go before he kills you, or before you snap and kill him whilst acting out your fantasies.

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 08-Oct-12 13:41:16

Telling him the behaviour is unacceptable is fine as far as it goes but you know it won't stop. You know it's wrong to stay.

Dryjuice25 Mon 08-Oct-12 13:42:20

*fantasizing

lolaflores Mon 08-Oct-12 13:43:34

You are a victim. Even if you do get to act out and put him the same position as you are in, it will make not a jot of a difference. he will never understand, because if he did he wouldn't do it.

Stay if you must, but you can never rationalise with violent men. I am not sure if you have answered whether you have children with this charmer? If you have then excuse me. If you haven't well I am sure it is because you know precisely what the lasting damage is. So, that is for you to explain to your kids later and what kept you there. Those list of pros will not add up to a hill of beans, believe me

wilderumpus Mon 08-Oct-12 13:44:46

revenge I am so sorry to hear about how you are treated. I am also really sorry that this treatment has on some level been so normalised to you that you think this is tolerable, and are now learning the ways of him indoors - who you see as having power in his nasty brutal ways sad he doesn't have power, he is a twat.

Being treated as you describe is NOT tolerable in my world on ANY level! You really won't leave? but would rather spend your days fantasising about drugging, tying someone up and then humilating and causing them extreme fear? hmm

I do not in any way blame you for your thoughts but I really, really want you to be objective and see how on some level you seem to think these behaviours are ok. Ok because you put up with it, ok because now you feel like doing it yourself. It is not ok! it is frightening and sad!

good luck OP. Please leave and come to normality where people treat each other with kindness and respect (most of the time smile) take care.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 13:48:19

There is a process to be gone through if I choose to end my marriage which will take several months. Due to many complexities surrounding our finances, living situation and because of the country where we currently reside. No women's aid here. I also do not feel in actual physical danger. He has never actually so much as bruised me. And is proud of the fact that he has "never HIT a woman" HA!!!

If he did kill me it would most likely be by accident. I asked him to please just slap me the next time as he is less likely to accidentally cause serious injury, brain damage or respiratory arrest.

I think my growing instinct to stand my ground and openly show the disgust and contempt I feel rather than the fear when he abuses me might exacerbate the risks in remaining in the marriage though.

izzyizin Mon 08-Oct-12 13:50:26

I wanted to SCARE him and make him feel threatened and powerless and terrified A few hours in police cells tends to have that effect on bullies such as the violent twunt you've misguidedly stayed with for far too long.

I'm curious about those 'huge number of reasons' why you won't leave him even though you know you should.

Has he got megabucks, a mahoosive dick, charm to sway, or, hopefully, a terminal illness that means you'll be a seriously gay loaded widow in the next few months? Are you into auto-erotic aphyxiation and get your rocks off bigtime when being throttled? Or is that you 'love' him?

Dryjuice25 Mon 08-Oct-12 13:51:59

Not sure what op is expecting as she is acutely aware of this unacceptable abuse to herself be honest. I don't see how this is helpful to her/others in dangerous relationship who might read this thread

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 13:52:01

Eldritch, you are quite right - he has been made to feel that way as a child. But I suspect his dad never choked him which is why he does it - he doesn't realize quite how terrifying and painful it is. He never hits me or otherwise causes injury because that would make him like his dad. But choking is "different" right ?!

janelikesjam Mon 08-Oct-12 13:52:50

Nobody can tell you what to do OP. But I was reading the other day that a significant proportion of the women killed by their partners have never had a finger laid on them even in their relationships lasting decades - "only" emotional abuse. Then one day, out of the blue .... This is not meant to alarm you, but it is a chilling fact.

HarderToKidnap Mon 08-Oct-12 13:54:36

Have you read "Dolores Claiborne"? If not, you should.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 13:55:36

I just wanted to write it down to see if it would get it out of my head.

It hadn't happened for months.

I felt really happy with him.

I wasn't scared or angry any more.

Now I'm just fucking fucking furious.

And I've never felt angry before.

Sad and hurt and disappointed and distraught. But oddly enough I never felt like I hated him. I actually used to feel huge compassion for him because if his own abuse and how much he hates himself after he abuses me. But I don't feel sorry for him this time. I feel really really really ANGRY.

Dryjuice25 Mon 08-Oct-12 13:57:48

You asked him to slap you.....this makes me want to weep for you.

Do you think he will own up to choking and hitting you????!!!!

alienreflux Mon 08-Oct-12 14:01:15

op please say if you have kids?

NaiceSpam Mon 08-Oct-12 14:01:58

I think you should do it. You should tie him up and threaten him and terrify him.

And then you should leave him immediately.

AvonCallingBarksdale Mon 08-Oct-12 14:02:56

If he did kill me it would most likely be by accident. I asked him to please just slap me the next time as he is less likely to accidentally cause serious injury, brain damage or respiratory arrest

OP, please re-read what you have written here ^^.
This is not a normal way to live and there is nothing that could outweigh the benefits of leaving someone like this.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 14:04:37

He does own up. He acknowledges what he does, accepts complete responsibility, apologies repeatedly, castigates himself, punishes himself, swears it will never happen again. And for months and months it doesn't. And he is loving and sweet and kind and all the usual gubbins. Until one night six or eight months later he will get pissed and I will forget not to watch my step after he has been drinking and he will flip. And JUST manage not to cause me any physical injury. It never happens when the children are awake or so they will be disturbed (they are babies). He never does it when there is anyone else there. He only does it when attacked or feels he is being criticized and belittled (in his own mind). There is a narrow and specific set of circumstances which triggers him. But it doesn't matter how narrow they are or how infrequently it happens. It's WRONG.

izzyizin Mon 08-Oct-12 14:05:48

As suggested by HTK, Dolores Claiborne is a good one but you may find Misery, also by Stephen King, more in line with your fantasy of tying him down when he's out of it...

CailinDana Mon 08-Oct-12 14:05:57

If it is WRONG (which it is) then why do you want to stay with him?

Dryjuice25 Mon 08-Oct-12 14:08:11

And fwiw, choking ranks as the highest form of abuse(used by the worst of criminals) and it doesn't happen by accident. It's meant to make you stop breathing and not just to punish you. And its a few seconds short of murder hence you should be terrified .

kerala Mon 08-Oct-12 14:08:21

Sounds deeply messed up I cant even begin to understand your reasoning.

I would have thought the best revenge is to leave, set up your own fulfilled happy life without him leaving him fuming on the sidelines.

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 08-Oct-12 14:08:26

So walk. Stuff the finances, the living situation or the national whatever it is that's designed to keep women trapped... and walk. I think your anger is borne of the frustration at finally realising that you have no influence over this man's behaviour. This one thing you can do for yourself.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 14:08:39

I asked him to slap me partly to make him feel more guilty and partly because it genuinely would be less risky an if he absolutely HAS to physically vent his rage on me I would prefer it to be in the most non potentially lethal way possible. I'm pragmatic like that.

Naicespam - sometimes in my fantasy I do just that and sometimes he "gets it" and never does it again. Depends on how angry and or strong I'm feeling.

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 08-Oct-12 14:09:45

You're not pragmatic, you're delusional

CailinDana Mon 08-Oct-12 14:11:04

Sorry I agree with Cogito. Your posts are coming across as very unbalanced and I really worry about your children living in such a dysfunctional situation. How would you feel if you came home one day to find your DH choking one of your children?

izzyizin Mon 08-Oct-12 14:11:05

If you were to enact your fantasy in rl and tied him up before doing unto him what he's so often done to you, you'd have to leave him tied up forever because, if released, he'd kill you.

I hope you've made a Will which assigns guardianship of your babies to responsible, loving, and non-violent, adults in the event of your premature death.

EldritchCleavage Mon 08-Oct-12 14:13:23

Be very careful please, OP. He has got into the habit of choking you. That is so dangerous. It would be all too easy, in drink and in a rage, for him to go too far and kill or seriously injure you. If you are going to stay for the time being, plan your escape, and avoid him completely when he is drunk. Don't provoke him-what would your children do without you?

PatriciaHolm Mon 08-Oct-12 14:15:03

You say his childhood is to blame?

You do realise your children are heading for the same childhood?

If you won't spend "a few months" sorting out seperation for you, do it for them. You are supposed to be the one on their side, it's up to you to prevent them witnessing and suffering the same way (and they will, as they grow up).

kerala Mon 08-Oct-12 14:16:46

I havent worked in the field for years but when I was doing childcare law one of the factors SS used in removing children was sustained violence in the home with the victim not taking steps to remove the children from that environment sad

jkklpu Mon 08-Oct-12 14:17:00

This is scary - you are actually expressing a preference for the kind of violence your partner metes out to you. What kind of message does this send, apart from reinforcing your own sense that this is your role in the relationship? You making him feel guilty isn't any kind of weapon/revenge; that's a delusion.

And you have babies. Honestly, children are very sensitive to tension, fear, bad atmospheres between adults. They're likely to sense when things are wrong. What would it take for you to protect them from this man in the future? Divorce doesn't have to be stage one.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 14:17:50

Why do you think? Don't we all had the same script us Stupid Stayers. Because we want the good bit. The bit between the abuse.

If he was emotionally abusive, finacially abusive, verbally abusive even more regularly physically abusive it would be easy to make the choice to go. But he is like this twice a year. And the rest of the time he is great. Seriously great. Caring, devoted, goes out of his way to be helpful, domesticated, thoughtful, supportive, great company, boosts my confidence, tells me how amazing I am and how lucky he is to be with me, is considerate, rubs my feet, makes dinner, plays educational games with the toddlers every day, is playful, sings nursery rhymes each morning and night, washes the car, mows the lawn, offers to help out our friends, works hard, listens to my moans, tries to take pressure off me, never ogles other women, does the ironing, surprises me with home made cards on Mother's Day, buys my favorite Ben and Jerry's, attempts to be sexually satisfying in a non selfish fashion, you name it he does it.

And occasionally gets pissed rageful and violent. Yay.

Dryjuice25 Mon 08-Oct-12 14:20:48

You asked him to slap you. But you haven't had any influence/control on his behaviour in the past, what makes you think he is going to follow your desperate request and not squeeze your throat harder one day. This is no way a laudable insurance or in anyway assuring....

kerala Mon 08-Oct-12 14:21:27

So what. Mine and all my friends husbands do all that and more only without the violent bit confused.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 14:23:29

Does that one issue outweigh everything else?

I tell myself I have boundaries - they just aren't the same as other people's.

The occasional choking in private can be accepted.

If he ever even raised his voice in front of the kids I'd be gone.

How fucked up.

CailinDana Mon 08-Oct-12 14:27:27

If he chokes you, what's to stop him hurting the children?

Dryjuice25 Mon 08-Oct-12 14:28:03

OP -post at 14:17-And you are prepared to put your life on the line for that?

alienreflux Mon 08-Oct-12 14:28:41

the occasional choking in private can be accepted WTAF???!! do you not know he COULD KILL YOU??? im really sorry for shouting, but what abut your children?? they need you!!
people have auto asphyxiation sex games, consenting adults, they go wrong!! people die ffs.
and your children are not babies then, they are toddlers,that are old enough for educational games they can hear mummy and daddy, daddy choking mummy fgs. please i'm begging you try and think of this in a different way.

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 08-Oct-12 14:28:58

"Don't we all had the same script us Stupid Stayers. Because we want the good bit. The bit between the abuse"

You realise that most people get exclusively 'the good bit' and there is no abuse at all? You realise that in normal, healthy relationships, no-one chokes anyone, either in private or anywhere else?

You may say you are happy with your different boundaries but your fantasies of scaring him and your terrible feelings of anger say the polar opposite.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 14:29:15

They don't talk yet.

CailinDana Mon 08-Oct-12 14:30:56

Why is the fact that they don't talk yet relevant?

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 14:31:14

And even when they do start talking it will probably be several years before they can say anything along the lines of "you're a useless wanker and I can't believe how incredibly angry I am with your disgusting behavior" when he comes in at 4am drunk. Which is what invariably triggers his abuse. I know. I don't know why I say it either. Zero instinct for self preservation.

alienreflux Mon 08-Oct-12 14:32:18

no, they don't talk, but they can get scared, recognize anger and fear in their parents voices, i'm really sorry, i don't want to sound like i'm having a go,but you seem to see yourself as worthless, that you alone are not enough reason to stop this appalling behaviour.
So will it stop when they can talk? or are you happy for them to live with this because you are?

izzyizin Mon 08-Oct-12 14:32:21

Carry on as you are, honey, and you may find that you won't be talking because he's crushed your larynx or worse.

jkklpu Mon 08-Oct-12 14:32:32

The occasional choking in private can be accepted. sad

How would you react if, in 20 years, one of your children came out with this line with regard to his/her relationship?

foolonthehill Mon 08-Oct-12 14:33:39

If he was emotionally abusive, financially abusive, verbally abusive even more regularly physically abusive it would be easy to make the choice

NO IT WOULDN'T you would still be making excuses for staying and saying that the good outweighs the bad, that's how abuse works. The abuser does just a little bit more, just a little bit worse as it escalates and you just put up because the "good outweighs the bad" until the penny drops that it doesn't.

No abuse is the acceptable amount, your children are being damaged in the same way that he was, you are condoning it and you even know that it is a script.

WAKE UP: if he wants to stop he can stop...he wasn't drunk the last time he hurt you, he is choosing it, he can get help from an abusers programme, where can your children go to get help?

And he doesn't have to drink alcohol, he chooses that. Would you drink a drop if you knew you were likely to strangle/choke/hurt your partner afterwards...I'd be sworn off it for life.

It is not brave to stand up and tell him "this is not acceptable" because your actions show him that it is.

And before you make some more excuses...I have left and I do know what it takes.

Selks Mon 08-Oct-12 14:34:27

You are being incredibly blinkered if you think that his abuse to you will not affect your children. Please read this, this, and this.
Don't be deluded into believing that your children need to see you being abused to be adversely affected by it. They just need to live with it.
If you can't end this situation for your sake, you need to do it for your children.

alienreflux Mon 08-Oct-12 14:34:37

you are still blaming yourself for triggering this violent abusive bastard into choking you? it's not your fault, it's his!!

CailinDana Mon 08-Oct-12 14:35:30

So if your child is assaulted by their dad because of something they say to him, will you say "Oh X you have no instinct for self preservation"? and just tell them that there are certain things they can't say around dad in order to avoid being attacked?

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 14:37:41

Yes what a stupid excuse making cunt I am thanks for that.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 14:38:50

He may choke me but you've made me feel worse about myself than he ever has.

CailinDana Mon 08-Oct-12 14:41:43

I make no apologies for that Revenge. You are a mother, you have a duty towards your children. You cannot stay with a violent man just because it happens to suit some twisted idea you have of yourself or relationships. You know what this man is capable of, and yet you are unwilling to protect yourself or your children. That is not right and if one of your children looks you in the face in years to come and blames you for not protecting them from the physical or emotional destruction their father has wreaked on them you will have to accept that blame.

Dryjuice25 Mon 08-Oct-12 14:42:21

You are not stupid just incredibly delusional

My ExP used to choke me, not open handed, he would actually squeeze either side of my windpipe.. its dangerous. When he lets go, IF he lets go before you pass out, he stands a chance of causing a blood or air bubble to go into your brain. It will kill you.

He said he learnt it in the army.

Get out now!

And no, you're not the only one who has had those thoughts, i see ExP and i would like him to know how it feels to have someone you love, and is supposed to love you, hurt you.
But i don't love him any more so it'd be a waste of time, besides, i don't want to hurt anyone, not even him.

You will leave like i did, after 9 years, when he stops hurting you because you don't care any more, and starts hurting your DC's or pets to get at you.
You don't have any self respect left, he's seen to that.
But you will leave to protect people or animals that he has already damaged by letting them see mummy with bruises.

You do understand that you risk having your babies taken away, don't you, by the social services?

wilderumpus Mon 08-Oct-12 14:47:04

your children will love their father, whatever he does.

They are unlikely to call him a wanker as the loyalty they will have for him will be so powerful they will be like you and consider a bit of choking as worth it, for the lovely dad he is in the middle bits. sad

When they are older and hitting their children (not choking, that's what their dad did to them and it Wasn't Nice) and their spouses in anger that they haven't learnt how to control they will hate themselves too, and apologise, and blame their upbringing (you).

I have everything in my very normal DH that you have but of course, without the violence and fear. I never have to watch my step sad If he is a twat about something I tell him and he listens - and vice versa. This is how people communicate, using words, not through violence, aggression and fear.

Can you imagine your DH behaving like this with a strange woman in a coffee shop? what would you think if you saw that? because that would be NO different or less shocking than how we feel about how you describe his treatment of you, OP.

He must never slap you. You are not empowered by asking him to do that to you sad You are not empowered through revenge fantasies. You are not empowered when you 'forget to watch your step'.

You will be empowered when you pack your bag and take your babies somewhere safe.

Dryjuice25 Mon 08-Oct-12 14:50:30

OP- people have you and your dcs's interests and want to help ....no malice intended

CajaDeLaMemoria Mon 08-Oct-12 14:52:03

Your children may not talk yet, but they understand. And they may not ever wind him up - it's far more likely that they learn how to "watch their step" far before they ever speak - but they will end up like him.

You are teaching them that this is normal. That they can physically abuse someone as long as they are nice sometimes. That it's someone else's fault.

You are also teaching them that it's normal to be abused. That when their partners beat them, they should stay and take it, they should blame themselves. They should have to watch themselves and make sure they don't annoy anyone.

Revenge fantasies are a coping mechanism. One day, you might act on it. It'll probably when that fear has gone further than ever, when he doesn't let go, when you are seconds away from dying. And then you'll get the vivid fantasies, and the adrenaline, and the strength - and you'll either kill or seriously injure him, to save yourself.

And you'll be the next in a long line of women who claim battered women syndrome, and who have expert witnesses who give plenty of evidence, and medical records showing the damage that being choked regularly (and every six months is regularly) has done, and your children will testify and show what they've seen too - but you will still get sent down, because there's plenty of holes in that theory, and because most women strike back when they are least at risk. When he's asleep, or drugged, or just not expecting it, rather than in the heat of the moment to save their own lives.

And you'll be a victim throughout the whole thing. You might be happy with that, but what about your children? They are victims too. Just children, and the best that they can hope for is that one of their parents kills or injures the other so badly that this horrific situation stops.

alienreflux Mon 08-Oct-12 14:53:49

oh revenge please don't say that, i'm really sorry, i'm not very good at this, there are much better people on here at this than me, i don't mean to make you feel bad, i'm just raging on your behalf. I cannot understand your thinking

raskolnikov Mon 08-Oct-12 15:00:09

OP you are the one person in your childrens lives who they will rely on for their health, safety and emotional stability. You have acknowledged how wrong this situation is. Just think for a moment how empowered you would feel once you'd started taking steps to put things right, for their sake and for yours.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 15:02:33

revenge It's not the posters on here making you feel bad about yourself, it's that you cant push back down the feelings that were rising in you.

I used to live with a man like this. I made lists of the pros of leaving and staying and the cons of leaving and staying. As though there were anything that could outweigh somebody trying to choke me and kicking down a door to get out me when he was in a rage.

do you ever worry that if you left him you'd regret it? I worried about that (don't know why). I lft and I never regreted it for a moment.

Your self esteem must be on the floor that you will tolerate this behaviour on the grounds that he acts nice or plays nice the rest of the time. I feel for you and I hope that this thread is for you the wake up call that my 'shall i stay or shall i go?' thread was, way back in April 2007. I left four months later.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 15:03:57

ps, i don't knwo what country you're in but abroad I'm guessing? return to your parents/mother's with your kids, bag on bag and passports. Don't tell me you can't do it. I KNOW it can be done. I did it.

knitpicker Mon 08-Oct-12 15:05:25

Has your DH ever had counselling for the abuse he suffered?

wilderumpus Mon 08-Oct-12 15:05:59

OP let us all have a quick hug. And then let us face the fact that this is really, really serious, that we are worried about you, and that to us what you are saying is frightening.

I am so sorry we are not on your wavelength, but then actually of course I am not, because it must be a really tough place to be. We don't want you to be there either. we can't empathise with your revenge fantasies because we don't have need of them (mostly, I am presuming, we are in more stable situations).

we are not judging you or blaming you, but I can completely understand that in not agreeing with you you feel defensive and that we are getting at you.

If people told me, en masse, that my viewpoint and relationship was completely skewed I think I would feel defensive and angry too. And then, hopefully, realise that in the multitude there has to be reason...

we really do care about you OP. all the best x

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 15:06:12

I'm not teaching them anything of the fucking sort. They have never ever even seen us argue. They have never witnessed an atmosphere they have never been shouted at they have never seen me shouted at. Their father is invariably brilliant with them. They have never seen a bruise on me because there never has been a bruise on me.

Making up sensational imaginings or projecting your own past history on me isn't helpful to me. I've been completely open about everything that has happened. And in return I've been told I'm a bad mother whose children will be abused damaged and hate me IF I'm even allowed to keep them out if the clutches of SS and that I fully deserve that to happen.

So much or the famous "mumsnet support".

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 15:07:46

Start a thread telling us why you can't leave and we can talk about some of that stuff and dissect what matters and what doesn't matter.

never think that your life is in one town. There is life as we know it in a million other towns. I went to one and started again. It wasn't a walk in the park but it was 'easy' compared with the stress I'd been living in before I left.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 15:10:54

OH yes, very decent of him.... I remember my x sitting on my chest hammering me, pulling my hair sneering "don't worry, I won't leave a marrrrrrrk on you'. So that sentence doesn't reassure me. It gives me a chill tbh.

I'm not being sensational. This stuff happened to me too. I minimised it when I was with him. I won't do it now.

My children don't hate me. they don't have much respect for their father. They do still see him.

Are you afraid that if you leave you just CAN'T fight him?

What country are you in?>

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 15:13:17

I'm not calling you a bad mother. I just really question that staying with a man who chokes you 'only twice a year' can EVER be worth it.

lolaflores Mon 08-Oct-12 15:17:58

Did you think that survivors of DV would seriously stand up and give you a round of applause for your thinking? That in some way we are going to say
"Oh do stay. He only does it so infrequently it isn't even worth worrying about"
There are no half measures in this situation.
Never underestimate your childrn's capacity to know what occurs between the two most important people in their life
The only advice from me to any woman facing this would be leave, clear out, fuck the consequences.
I did and I am everlastingly glad that I did.
If you don't want to, then be aware there are those here who will disagree but not to be hurtful or malicious, simply because there is no good reason they or I can find to remain in such a bad situation

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 15:22:40

No I guess I hoped survivors of DV might say "I felt like that too" or "I remember dating the same thing". Not encourage me to stay but at least not make me feel like I'm completely alone and the entire world thinks I'm a twat.

wordfactory Mon 08-Oct-12 15:23:05

OP there is absolutely nothing this man can do that makes up for him being violent. Nothing.

He can win father of the year and be a better lover than any man that ever lived. Doesn't matter. He has been repeatedly violent towards you. He will continue to be (you know that). That is all there is to it.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 15:24:06

It would be the wrong kind of support if we told you that that was all you deserved. That'd like telling an anorexic, yes you are a bit plump I guess.

Seriously, you say that you ahve been open with us, but do you really feel relaxed and happy in his company the rest of the time, or are you walking on egg shells. YOu are ANGRY, and too fucking right you are angry. So you should be. You want revenge. You know this is unacceptable. YOu know that. But you can't get revenge on him on a one-off basis.

The only revenge as they say is living well. Away from him.

glastocat Mon 08-Oct-12 15:26:32

Fuckinghell. This man will probably kill you,and you think that's ok? Please, please, for the sake of your kids, make plans to leave.because even if they are completely oblivious now,in a few years they won't be. That's if you're still alive. If you aren't perhaps he will move onto them next. This is really really serious. No one here is trying to make you feel bad, they just want you to wake up to how awful and dangerous this is.

MaBaya Mon 08-Oct-12 15:26:40

That is such a depressing OP.

You can lie in bed fantasising about murdering him... Or you can leave him.

How the good can outweigh the bad I do not understand. Madness. You arebeing abused. Get help.

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 08-Oct-12 15:27:08

"So much or the famous "mumsnet support"."

What kind of support would you prefer? What were you hoping others would say?

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 15:27:16

YES revenge. listen to me.

FOr years I sat there trying to reconcile it all in my brain. I told you a few posts back, I made spreadsheets. REasons to stay, reasons to go. I thought i could work it out like a mathematical equation and reach an answer that couldn't be argued with. But my pride was the variable ykwim?

I left when my eldest had regressed to wetting her knickers again. I know you say your children are unaffected, mine weren't. The rows escalated. The aggression escalated. The fear escalated. It all got worse over time. my spreadsheets went by the wayside and I returned to my home country with two children and our passports and one rucksack.

And despite my fears that I would regret it, I never did.

You may not identify with what I'm telling you now that it's behind me, but i do identify with you and what you're telling me

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 15:28:27

cogito, it's me lizlemon here. I name change regularly but i wanted to say that there aren't MILLIONS of women who've been through this!! half of them are me, name-changing!

CajaDeLaMemoria Mon 08-Oct-12 15:29:00

Nobody said you were a twat.

Your reaction is due to the fact that you have normalised this, it is entirely normal to you. Our reaction is because it is not normal.

He either needs to get counselling, serious, intense counselling that fixes this, or you need to leave.

The survivors of DV are the ones who leave, and they all get this anger, this pain. But it isn't Mumsnet that's caused that - it's him. He created this situation, and these fantasies, and he's made your family the way it is.

You aren't alone. You'll be even less alone when you leave him, and get away from this.

Your children will know. I never saw bruises, either, and I never saw arguing, or fighting, and I loved them both, and they were lovely to me. But I knew, and I had counselling at a very young age to get over this - and although I'm now not that affected, it does come into conversation sometimes, and even well qualified people are shocked and what I've seen and heard. And I'm not shocked. I wouldn't accept it in my own life, but thats normal for me. I saw it.

I wouldn't recommend carrying out your fantasies, by the way. He is likely to react worse. He won't see what it's like for you, and change - he'll get worse. Please don't turn it into a game. He's dangerous, whether he means to be or whether it just happens, and it doesn't matter how much he hates himself afterwards. If he hated himself that much, he'd get help so that he wasn't so dangerous anymore.

Look after yourself.

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 08-Oct-12 15:29:17

"No I guess I hoped survivors of DV might say "I felt like that too"

Survivors of DV will tell you 'I felt like that too'.... but they will be saying it from a place of safety, away from their abuser. That's what makes them survivors. And that's the advice you're getting.

lolaflores Mon 08-Oct-12 15:30:23

I think you are focusing in the revenge fantasy as a coping mechanism. it isn't going to work when in reality this man hits you. Dream all you like, the reality is not going to change

glastocat Mon 08-Oct-12 15:30:44

Jenna that's when my mum decided to leave my dad. I started wetting the bed again. I was eight. I am so grateful that she did, if she hadn't he would have ruined both our lives. I went on to have a very good relationship with him when I was older, even went on holiday with him a few times! But thank god mum left when she did.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 15:31:29

ps, I used to fantasise that my x would die in a motorcycle accident. Every time he went out on his bike I would pray that a police would come to the door and tell me he'd died! so, again, honestly, i identify with the revenge fantasies.

Badvoc Mon 08-Oct-12 15:33:31

Of course, one day he won't stop.

MatureUniStudent Mon 08-Oct-12 15:35:41

You said about drugging him and tying him up so you could scream in his face, have a knife - do to him what he has done with you. What then? I mean, if you could do that, after that - what then? Will you feel better? or will you be pretty much the same as your partner? It can't be easy to share a bed with a partner you want to hurt and yet you are both doing it. You were brave and posted your feelings - but you must be able to read over what you wrote and your replies to other mners and know that it can't be right that you are in a position where you are trying to get affirmation for feelings you know you wouldn't feel, if your DP wasn't a violent man?

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 15:37:43

Yeh, I don't stand in the way of my children having a relationship of sorts with their father. He's not a good man and that is linked to being a good father but he has not disappeared into the ether so they do have a face to the name 'father' which avoids a lot of confusion. they don't have questions that have no answers.

Molly333 Mon 08-Oct-12 16:05:10

Umm u may be the one punished in the end! I too went alOng with life like that until one occasion he went to far, he hit me on the side of my head and two days later I lost my eyesight because of the massive nerve damage!! Six years later I bitterly bitterly regret staying. He too only lost it occasionally!

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 16:12:56

Mature uni, that really helps actually. Thank you. No it wouldn't change anything. It would only make things worse.

Before I walked on eggshells for a few weeks and eventually it went away until the next incident. But I still felt love for him. I don't think I feel that at the moment. I despise him. Really despise him.

He started therapy but we couldn't afford for him to keep going. He got to the "I'm a victim of abuse" part but not te "and now I abuse my wife" bit with the therapist. And every time he came home and told me about his session and how helpful it had been to talk about his childhood I wanted to scream "that's in the past you selfish self absorbed assholish twat why aren't you asking your therapist how to stop abusing your wife!!!!!!!!"

I want us to go together to therapy. Largely so I can say what I want to say in a safe environment. And so I can shame him in front of someone. Because no one knows.

I know tomorrow I will probably feel differently again and love him. This mood never lasts.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 16:20:16

Do it. If you can get him to therapy be honest. But if anything is going to trigger his anger, it'll be being shamed publicly??

Also go to therapy on your own. I know the mood never lasts. You might feel something approaching contentment and security tomorrow. But it never really goes away, the fear, the nagging feeling that things aren't right.

He may have been abused as a child, but you don't owe it to him to make allowances for that in your tolerance of his behaviour. You are not a cold hearted mean bitch if you draw a line, and have a limit.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 16:21:18

Yes, I second that you are brave to put these feelings out there.

Guiltypleasures001 Mon 08-Oct-12 16:30:27

Hi op

I have read through your posts and all i can hear is a silent scream for help, you cant shame him, YOU cant MAKE him feel anything, a normal thinking human being would feel these things anyway, but he isnt if it wasnt you it would be someone else. I cant imagine what it must be like inside your head, you must be grinding your teeth down at night with all the jaw clenching.

Your mental health let alone your physical health is going to go down hill real soon as well, because the energy to keep this sort of thought pattern going indefinatly is immense. I doubt he will stick around to look after you when you become useless too him. The man is dangerous you know and so do we, the thing is do you become the next face on crimewatch, or the next violent death on the front page of the Daily Mail before you smell the coffee brewing, because love it doesnt get any worse than this, unless of course you fancy writing your own eulogy to read out at the church.

Lets put this another way, if you want him to change, you have to remove the opportunity for him to be abusive, so thats you removing yourself from the equation, as long as your the punching bag of temptation in his way he wont change.

This isnt love or respect this is sadistic and he must be laughing his cock off at you everytime you appear to forgive him, he has as much respect for you as you apparantly have for yourself right now, which is fuck all lovey and thats sad.

Put that hate to good use, use your feelings to plan your escape route because if you dont walk out under your own steam, then a box it is then.

x

MardyArsedMidlander Mon 08-Oct-12 16:34:08

The fact that your husband never abuses you in front of anyone else, never in front of the children and doesn't leave a bruise shows that he KNOWS what he is doing and he CHOSES to do it.
I think all women in an abusive relationship have had that fantasy 'If only I could make him see how terrible this is!'. the sad truth is actually the abuser doesn't give a shit- he likes the power and the terror.

CailinDana Mon 08-Oct-12 17:06:13

Revenge, it seems to me from your later posts that what you're really hoping for is that he'll change, that he'll suddenly no longer be abusive and become the normal loving husband that he appears to be to the rest of the world.

I'm really sorry to say it but that's not going to happen.

Even if you do one day tie him up and terrify him, he won't suddenly think "Oh, what I did was wrong, I'll never do it again." Equally counselling isn't going to make him see the light.

He knows what he's doing. He knows it's wrong. But he gets such a kick and thrill, such satisfaction out of seeing that absolute terror in your eyes as he chokes you that that's worth more to him than you. If he genuinely didn't know it was wrong, surely he would do it to everyone? Or he would do it to your children? But he doesn't, does he. He only does it to you, in private, and ensures he doesn't leave a mark on you. Because you're his private thrill, his way of expressing all that anger that's inside him. He needs that aggression and violence to make himself feel better. It's not even really about you, you just happen to be a handy outlet, being an adult who'll just accept it and come back for more. You give him everything he wants - love, children, a family life, and a nice soft neck to choke, what more could he ask for?

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 17:23:21

Thank you Jenna I appreciate you sharing your experiences. Thanks to others as well I am grateful for the replies. Yes I'm defensive. I've felt that those who have had the strength to leave make me feel like they are better than I am and unless I pack up my kids this evening I'm a worthless irresponsible shit.

I don't WANT to leave. Like everyone in this situation I want him to just stop being violent and never do it again. That's all. Just don't be violent again. But that's what everyone says isn't it.

CailinDana Mon 08-Oct-12 17:27:49

It is I'm afraid Revenge. Every woman who stays does it for good reasons - she wants to keep the family together, she loves her DH, he is a good father, etc. You are not unusual in wishing and hoping everything would get better. But wishing and hoping and fantasising aren't going to change things. At some point in the future this will happen again, and you might end up dead or seriously injured. One of your children could see it happening, or could be hurt too. That's the reality.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 17:32:03

It is very hard to read 'leave him!' 'end it' on line, because obviously you're not going to pack your bags on the strength of what a few internet bods have said!

But this thread will shift your perspective a little. There is no harm if the anaesthetic that gets you through those episodes won't kick in to the same degree anymore. It's a process. This thread isn't telling you what to think. You might be defensive reasding it now, but the dust will settle, you will forget this thread but your perspective might not be exactly the same from now on.

foolonthehill Mon 08-Oct-12 17:36:15

But those who leave are not better than you are, we are the same as you are, we want you to be free from abuse, as we are......., and you can use us/the resources we know about/the experience we have to help yourself and your DH and your DC....

we are the same, we are just on the other side.
And there are abusers programmes for the real men who can face what they have done and take the opportunity to stop the abuse and break the cycle for themselves and for their families. The sad truth is that very few will even contemplate going if they are still at home, even fewer see it through and do the necessary work, but the opportunity is there. your DH could do it.

Guiltypleasures001 Mon 08-Oct-12 17:40:24

Op none of us are judging you, we just want you to be able to make a choice before that animal takes it away from you. A lot if not most of us me included have been where you are in one way or another, and we have all been defensive in some way its natural, its also all right for the ones like me to sit here and say leave the bastard, but the thing is thats just as hard as staying, but there are kids involved. They wont thank you for staying if mummy gets taken away by the bad daddy, if anything is ever to get through the rage you feel at the moment, it will be the safety of your kids, because if your not around to protect them, then it falls to him.

x

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 17:50:05

I am still thankful every night when I get in to a bed that doesn't have my x in it. I realise that in a parallel universe I could so easily still be there. I used to read these threads and think, ah, those women are brave enough to leave, they're different from me.

BerylStreep Mon 08-Oct-12 17:51:49

OP - this isn't normal. I understand you wanting revenge, but what you really need is to want to be safe and free of abuse.

What are your kids going to do if he goes too far one day and he kills you, or leaves you with permanent brain damage? This country you are living in - what is the healthcare system like? Because I suspect you are going to need it.

Revenge: Is one of the big problems that you are living in some barbarian fucking dump that doesn['t consider women fully human? IE is it not possible to grab the kids and leave because the authorities in the place you currently live would actually force you to return to this man as you are his property?

If so, if you are a native of a civilised country, you should be able to appeal to the embassy of your home country for advice.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 18:05:23

Yeah I wondered that. Where doesn't have WA?

EHoneybadger Mon 08-Oct-12 18:09:39

I also went through similar. I also felt angry. I never had revenge fantasies but would always stand up to him when he was being unreasonable as I felt that I was not an "battered wife" as long as I was still able to do that. Ironically people accused me of "provoking" him.

He used to call me names, spit on me, pull me around by my hair and trash a room around me. He put this hands on my throat a few times but never properly choked me and he never actually hit me. He also had a porn addiction and made me feel about as attractive as a toad.

He also only did it infrequently and after alcohol. Otherwise he was a charming personality who was the life and soul of everything and would do anything for anybody. One day he attacked my children who called the police. To my shame I didn't even leave him that day. Worse, me and my children lied to the police to protect him. It took another few months before I finally got us out of there. My children have forgiven me for leaving it too long but I feel such shame. I am actually a strong, capable woman who had always protected them from everything, stamped on bullying when it started at school and raised them well until and apart from that time in their lives.

It took a man I briefly dated after leaving him and Mumsnet to help me put the word "ABUSE" to what had happened. Before that I had made excuses for him because he had had a difficult childhood and was mentally ill after being in the army.

Reading this back now I cannot believe what I lived with and thought was okay. There are still people who think I am a bitch for leaving him and think we might get back together. Ha!!!!! is all I can say to that!

I think the anger and feelings of disgust and despising him are promising. Hopefully you are closer than you may think to being strong enough to leave him. He is not going to change other than to get worse. The change has to come from you. I cannot tell you the relief of getting out and feeling safe again. I have also started to find happiness again and to remember what is normal.

I don't think anybody thinks you are weak for staying but nobody is going to collude and tell you to stay when they know how much better life will be for you and your children when you get out.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 18:18:02

Yeah, eHoney, I was the same, I challenged my x, and believed that I was not what was meant by an abuse victim,.. I believed taht because I knew he was a bully and because I knew I did not love him that I was different. He used to say we were getting on well sometimes and congratulate me for being a good girl. I called those my put up and shut up phases.

Anyway.. similar experience to eHoney, but after a while people will accept that you have left him. You are not obliged to stay in ANY relationship, even if the man is lovely. It is your prerogative to leave it.

I agree as well that feelings of anger are a really good thing. what country are you in Revenge?

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 18:24:46

I wouldn't need to leave him. He only gets his visa to be here through me. I work full time. The house is mine. The car is mine. Everything is mine. I could book him a flight back to the uk and cancel his visa tomorrow if I wanted. The only way my life would change at all is that he wouldn't be in it.

But if I did that the kids would never see their father and would be brought up by a nanny not by me. He would be completely destitute, no job, would go bankrupt because I pay his debts at the moment and would also be homeless. I couldn't do that to him. I just couldn't. If I wait things can be arranged so he gets a visa in his own right has an income and could stay out here and be a part of his children's lives.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 18:28:22

Middle East.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 18:30:05

You don't OWE it to him to keep him afloat though. If he sinks without you then he sinks without you. Although I'm sure he wouldn't , it's part of a familiar poor me routine. Despite the fact that he has not treated you with respect I think he would shift all the blame for splitting up the family on to you if you left.

If you leave him, that won't stop him being a father. That will be down to HIM.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 18:30:43

I arranged my whole life so I wouldn't be trapped in a relationship which I couldn't leave if I had to. And I've trapped myself because I don't want him to go. Not because I couldn't cope financially or practically or any other way. But because even though he is abusive if rather have him here than not. Why?

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 18:32:36

I know you won't tell him to leave and book him a flight home, but maybe the NEXT time he chokes you, you will. I've a feeling that your anger is not going to go away.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 18:33:17

If my parents were dead I might leave him. But my unhappiness would devastate them. My dad has cancer. They need to believe I am happy and settled to be happy themselves.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 18:34:17

You know what, me too Jenna. I'm almost waiting to see when I finally snap.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 18:34:36

so he's a sahm dad in a country where women are nothing, and you're the big earner in a country where men are king. man. tricky.,

I'd go for counselling on your own, you need to think about what you OWE him. You say you cant' do it to him, like you would be responsible for his downward spiral even though he would have brought it on himself?

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 18:37:49

It'll happen alright. But don't 'go for him' like i did. After 7 years of my x pushing me and shoving me, a rougher shove, a sharper poke, I then lost it and pulled his hair. He brought that up at ever opportunity. Yes once I pulled his hair and he played the victim over that I tell you. And it made everybody think 'six of one and half a dozen of the other'. tough, but I wish I'd managed to resist lashing back because it achieved nothing .
he so clearly remembers that i pulled his hair but he doesn't remember that he kicked down doors to get at me (twice), choked me (twice) dropped my phone down the toilet (also twice). Plenty of pushing and shoving and finger jabbing as well. It's like it never happened to him though. except for when I pulled his hair. THAT he remembers with amazing lucidity

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 18:40:53

It's not that he wouldn't deserve it, he would. But I am just not that evil.

Ok I'd like to tie him up terrify and threaten him and possibly briefly cut off his airways but I can't obliterate his entire life and everything he cares for.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 18:43:55

oh revenge, i hear you with your parents. I really felt like I was crawling back to my parents with my tail between my legs. But clouds have silver linings. my mother said she would never had had such a close relationship with grandchildren if things had worked out between me and x.

it is VERY difficult telling people, disappointing people, going somewhere the first time as a single parent, being the only single parent at some do! but that is not something that continues to hurt and humiliate you indefinitely. there comes a point before too long when it's like water off a duck's back. so don't make life changing (or staying) decisions based on what you think your parents will feel. Happiness isn't a charade behind a white picket fence. Your parents might be shocked, briefly, but you'll get to spend time with your dad and he can get to know his grandchildren a bit. Well, those would be some positivies. People come 'round to a new situation that shocked them fairly quickly ime. I do remember cringing as my mother wsa on the phone downstairs telling various relatives 'yes it's all over,,,, for good this time.... yes. " I was upstairs feeling embarrassed, but also, there was a little bit more freedom with every extra person that was told. I honestly couldn't give a care who thought what now. Even my x. and he had me SO WELL trained to be accutely conscious of all his needs!!! I saw every situation, even leaving him, especially leaving him, through his eyes. it actually took a while to EXPERIENCE leaving hm through my own eyes if that makes sense.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 18:44:09

Yeah he would be the same. He loves to compare the minuscule things I do like "speaking to him in the wrong tone of voice" as being the same as screaming in my face (I've had the kicking door down thing too) or smashing a glass and saying "you're lucky I didn't smash this into your face". That kind of thing.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 18:47:57

oh yeah, I used to say my x's name in a critical tone. confused !!!

anyway, the night i left my x, i lay there crying because I knew how betrayed and angry my x would be. I knew that he would compound all his fears and insecurities and his misogyny to be honest, and it felt like such a WEIGHT to have that on my shoulders. I cried for HIM when I left him, even though I was free after 7 -8 years of his weirdfuckedupness. And he wasn't exactly abused as a chidl, but his family are nuts. and were a bit over zealous with discipline.

raskolnikov Mon 08-Oct-12 18:49:17

Revenge I can see that you don't want to burden your parents further if they're dealing with your dad's illness, however, they have their own difficulties that they're dealing with (I can't imagine they're happy at present at all) and yes, knowing that you've been suffering with this man will be a blow to them, but, at the same time, seeing you picking yourself up, dealing with it and doing what needs to be done will make them proud of you and that will give you strength as well. You don't need to continue being a victim for the sake of appearances, its obvious you care about him but he's destroying you bit by bit. Your posts are revealing in that you are thinking about what to do next - make plans, think about those first steps that you need to take and try to move forwards ... baby steps.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 18:49:53

........... so i felt that my leaving him would send him in to the gutter altogether. but you know what.. he seems to have survived it. I don't know if he's any more angry or screwed up since I left him but he doesn't behave any mroe screwed up or angry than he ever did. in fact, he can maintainn that cool superior facade now, which is preferable to him losing his temper.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 18:50:45

I WANT to fight back when he gets like that. I never used to. I felt too scared now I do. I wanted to pick up the bedside lamp and smash him over the head with it when he attacked me on Saturday morning. Instead I just hissed his stepdad (abusers) name at him again and again and again (implying he was exactly the same) until he choked me. I have never hit anyone in my life. I'm extremely measured, I never shout, I never bitch or nag (was too scared so never got into the habit). But when he loses it I just think "no no no no no, I will not show fear I will not accept this I will not lay down and humble myself and beg him motto hurt me I WON'T".

Jux Mon 08-Oct-12 18:51:34

Well, you aren't going to do it because you're not him, and it would make you as bad as he is, which you are not.

Now, please, don't just shrug us off. There are so many people here who have experienced it, seen it happen to people they do, deal with it professionally.

For babies to be in a situation like this, even though it is infrequent, is seriously bad. This situation will continue until you decide to stop it. It will be ongoing when your children have their first day at school, when they do their first school play, when they bring friends home for tea, when they have birthdays, Christmas, when they go up to secondary, when they leave and go to university, and on and on and on.

And all those years, you will be the occasional punchbag - if you're lucky. But you know that this behaviour will escalate, and it won't be twice a year forever.

And all those years, your children will learn either that they have to toe the line and walk on eggshells, or they will learn that they can treat you how they like.

I know you don't believe it will come to that. That they will never know. But they will. They will. Oh, how they will.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 18:52:04

I bet your parents have a fair idea that you're not as happy as you'd like them to think as well.

If you present it to them as 'life on the UP' they'll accept your version.

eg, "I wasn't happy with x, but now I am happy to have got out of the situation. I'm so happy to be back in UK with my family, I'm so happy you will get to know the gc better, it's for the best that the children grow up here, get to know their cousins etc etc...'. present it well. Present it not as a marriage breakdown but an epiphany!

Bubblegum78 Mon 08-Oct-12 18:55:01

1) Why don't you tell him?

2) Then pack your bags and walk...if you refuse to cower he will go to extreme lengths one day to MAKE you and he may end up killing you.

Good lucl. xx

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 18:55:10

I feel like that too. Everyone in his life has either abandoned neglected or abused him. As a child he didn't deserve it, as an adult he has been cheated on and (perhaps understandably) left. I promised him I would be different. That I would never leave and for once in his life he could rely on someone to love him and be there always. And I meant it. If I leave him everyone will have left him or abused him or betrayed him from his earliest memories. I will have proven that he is unlovable. That no one will ever love him or stay with him. I feel responsible. For his view of humanity. For his sanity.

joblot Mon 08-Oct-12 19:13:55

My god that's a heavy burden you've taken on and in return he has carte blanche to treat you, and maybe kids too, like shit. I think you're overestimating your power and influence frankly. And romanticising your relationship. Sounds unhealthy all round to me. Just my opinion of course

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 19:24:21

Yeah I'm overestimating. The FACT that he has no income, home, job, ability to see his kids unless I facilitate it is all in my head.

CailinDana Mon 08-Oct-12 19:33:23

What really worries me Revenge is that now that you're refusing to show fear he'll start getting less of a thrill from hurting you and will start going further and further to get what he wants. When he chokes you, you will look afraid, there's no way you can stop it, so the danger is that he will go straight to that and do it for longer in future, to get the reaction he wants.

You are not responsible for him. You are not his parent, you are his partner. I can understand you not wanting to let him down but your kindness is totally misplaced.

ickywickyyicky Mon 08-Oct-12 19:33:27

We all make choices - he is making his. You promised to be there for him - you surely didn't promise to be there for him while he did what he wanted to you.

Think of it like a parent who is told to dish out tough love. If you kick him out telling him clearly that when he gets help and sorts his head out, you will be there for him to facilitate a relationship with his kids, then you won't have abandoned him - you will have treated him with love. We can't fix others - you have to want to fix yourself.

Please, please don't screw your kids up - they will pick up on far more than you realise - and if it isn't spoken about, they will just bottle it up. What would you tell your DD if her future DH treated her like that? Would you really say you must not leave because without you he has no income, home, job or ability to see your grandkids. Or would you want to get her and her kids out of there????

AThingInYourLife Mon 08-Oct-12 19:34:18

"I feel responsible. For his view of humanity. For his sanity."

You are not.

But you are responsible for your own.

And they are seriously warped by this relationship.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 19:35:47

I felt that guilt too, despite the fact that no sane fly on the wall could have thought I owed him any loyalty, the point for me at the time, and what held me back from leaving for so long was that HE felt I owed him loyalty. He felt he could treat me like a subordinate, train me to sublimate all my own needs whilst being accutely aware of all of his and yet....... I did feel guilt at leaving him. Like you say, proving that he's not lovable, being one more person to let him down.

Well, the fuckwit sure let me down!!! But he could gloss over that quickly enough. I went into that relationship a giver, an optimist, and he was a taker and a cynic. It 'worked' on a dysfunctional level.

My x has not become any MORE bitter or any MORE miserable or cynical since I left him. All that has happened is that he hasn't had the handy little coping mechanism of having me to treat like shit. He seems to have coped without that little 'valve' all the same.

You probably can't get out of this til you acknowledge that in HIS eyes, you'll be just the latest person to leave him~ You'll be compounding all his bitterness and cynicism. But you can get to the point where that will mean as little to you as if I pointed to some person 300 metres into the distance and said, that person says your a bitch. And he will KNOW you no longer give a fuck if he feels let down or whatever. Boo hoo bastard. I felt all this guilt. I guess I wanted to take on the role of being the person who changed his view of humanity! well what an impossibly big task that was to take on!! could have finished La Sagrada Familia with papier machet quicker.

ickywickyyicky Mon 08-Oct-12 19:37:41

Who did you not save as a child ..... is there something that makes you want to go round saving people who are verging on unsaveable?

Or is it a role that you've experienced, and so are copying in your own marriage?

I say this, because this is what my DH does - to the point he has ruined our marriage. It makes him feel like a hero .... and all goes back to his childhood.

MummytoKatie Mon 08-Oct-12 19:43:30

I have a 2.6 year old which I think is a little older than yours but it will come unbelievably quickly. About 2 year olds I have two things to say:-

1. They pick up on a hell of a lot. I am in early pregnancy and expected to miscarry. We didn't discuss the pre-bad-news pregnancy in front of dd. neither of us have cried in front of dd. We have tried really hard not to let us see us upset.

But she is currently obsessed with babies "there's a baby in my tummy - it's a girl baby mummy" and also very clingy. I don't know what she knows but she knows something. sad

2. Two year olds are really really annoying. They try your patience beyond which you could not imagine. A bitchy, annoying belittling wife (not saying you are btw) has nothing on a toddler in a funny mood. I know you can't imagine your husband hurting your kids but 10 minutes before he first hurt you could you have imagined it?

CailinDana Mon 08-Oct-12 19:43:52

I am absolutely firmly of the belief that in a relationship the love should not be unconditional. You should never promise someone your unwavering loyalty, it gives them far too much power over you and it's a promise you just won't be able to keep without losing yourself along the way.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 19:44:02

I really don't think he gets a thrill from it. I think in his own mind he feels attacked and lashes out in return. He wants me to shut up to stop making him feel bad about himself to stop shining a light in his flaws. He wants to punish me for sticking my fingers in to areas which are still raw because of his abuse. Sometimes I am provocative sometimes he only thinks I am. But it's a violent defensiveness not a premeditated attempt to abuse. All other indicators of abusive behavior are absent.

CailinDana Mon 08-Oct-12 19:47:48

Do you get a thrill, or some sort of satisfaction, from your revenge fantasies?

AThingInYourLife Mon 08-Oct-12 19:49:55

Yeah, and 4 year olds are even more annoying.

They do the child's version of telling you you are stupid and inadequate, they can be very disrespectful as well as enormously, naggingly demanding.

They'll push his buttons before too long.

Unless he has better self-control than most parents.

Revengefantasiesrus Mon 08-Oct-12 19:52:45

I don't get a thrill from the fantasy. I think about it partly because my anger is still raw partly because I imagine by "making him see" how it feels I can imagine it would change something. That isn't of course the case. But that's the point of fantasy isn't it.

AThingInYourLife Mon 08-Oct-12 19:55:46

"All other indicators of abusive behavior are absent."

All other indicators other than regularly strangling you for not behaving as he'd like you to?

You don't need subtle indicators of a controlling personality with someone who is so obviously dangerous.

The fact that he doesn't sit down and plan it in advance is meaningless.

Someone else pointed out that he hasn't stopped drinking, despite the fact that he knows he might end up attacking you.

That would be the tiniest step that someone truly remorseful would take in a second.

But he hasn't made that choice.

Why not?

JustFabulous Mon 08-Oct-12 20:02:57

" Maybe I will just tell him I want to. I wonder what he would say."

He probably won't say anything. Just hurt you a lot more next time.

"I just don't want to feel like a fucking victim,"

Stop being one then and get the fuck out.

"If he did kill me it would most likely be by accident. I asked him to please just slap me the next time as he is less likely to accidentally cause serious injury, brain damage or respiratory arrest."

There are no words that are typable to respond to that.

balia Mon 08-Oct-12 20:03:02

So the idea is that if he was put in the position he puts you in, he would understand how bad it was and not do it anymore?

But you are in that position and it hasn't taught you to make yourself safe and leave. Perhaps the person you actually need to be made to see is yourself, that somewhere in the learned dysfunction, part of your brain is screaming out for you to get it, and that's why the revenge fantasies are so powerful?

He isn't a child. If you leave he will have to sort things out for himself. Perhaps that would be healthier for him, as well as you, not to have this vast powerplay going on.

wilderumpus Mon 08-Oct-12 20:07:35

he won't be thinking in his red mist of rage and hatred and anger so no he doesn't plan it. you are dehumanised in that moment, and afterwards he won't really remember the attack clearly. adrenaline and denial and the pain of his past will numb him.

you can't 'teach' him. you can't save him.

he has been there already, you say he was abused as a child, so you don't actually need to show him how humiliating and scary it is to be abused. He knows, this is why he does it to you, it is his default position when under a particular stress. If you push that button more by provoking or carrying out your revenge he will flip, not see 'sense'. he can't help his response right now, who knows if he ever will.

But you CAN stop being his punchbag. you are independent you say, brilliant. Maybe you like being needed by him by thinking he can't survive without your money, food and shelter. I bet he will.

Jux Mon 08-Oct-12 20:07:42

I think when you make a promise that you will behave differently from all the others, it is a requirement thathe too will behave differently towards you than he has all the others.

The onus is actually on him, but as long as you continue to forgive him without asking for anything in return, then he will not grapple with his past, learn how to control his behaviors and will never take responsibility for his own actions.

Please reconsider. You don't have to make it forever. You can tell him that when he has sorted himself out, dealt with his past, and is no longer an abuser then you and he can talk about getting back together.

His ability to react favorably to this will tell you whether he is able to be the man he could be without the violence, and therefore the man you actually can be happy with - all the time.

AThingInYourLife Mon 08-Oct-12 20:10:44

You should ask him, while he is doing his show of contrition, to stop drinking.

Ever.

Because you both know how it might end, and that is too big a risk to keep taking.

His response will tell you a lot.

Of course, he wasn't drunk this time...

But still, if he stopped the chances of him killing you might decrease.

alienreflux Mon 08-Oct-12 20:13:31

hi revenge I'm really glad you are examining just why you feel the way you do and put up with this shit, that can only be a good thing.
What about having some time apart? how would he react to that?
he could come back to the uk for a bit, give you time to get some counselling, and get your head together and him too.
I just worry if you wait for him to get a visa, you may never have away out.

alienreflux Mon 08-Oct-12 20:15:02

by the way your parents would be devastated to learn you stayed in this potentially fatal situation to save them more grief, nothing is more important to them than you, just like nothing is more important to you than your kids

AThingInYourLife Mon 08-Oct-12 20:18:14

Jux has made me think of something...

Getting a partner to promise not to be like all the others is a classic indicator for an abusive personality.

The whole dynamic of him relying on you to keep him sane and to maintsin his faith in humanity is textbook.

He loves you so much that it would be cruel of you to leave him and it's OK if he hurts you a little bit, because his feelings are so strong.

JennaMoroney Mon 08-Oct-12 20:26:18

oh wow. I didn't even notice that you'd also typed that line about wanting to restore his view of humanity! shock

Claire2009 Mon 08-Oct-12 20:32:54

I was in a domestic violence relationship for 5 years, i used to lie awake thinking about stabbing him or hitting him with a really heavy saucepan. I never did for fear I wouldnt do it properly or hard enough....

The relationship you're in is never going to get better, you have already allowed him to get away with it so he wont stop. The only way he will stop hurting you is when you leave.

CaliforniaLeaving Mon 08-Oct-12 20:36:26

I have a relative that was choked to passing out by her partner on a regular basis, twice she ended up in the hospital she knew that it would stop once she was dead.
He didn't do it in front of the kids (at first) but they get older and wake and to have a 4 year old looking you in the eyes in fear from the crack in the door while you are going in and out of consciousness is heartbreaking (so she tells me) Finally he turned on the kids. the boy got beating for looking at him the wrong way or having attitude, and the girl was locked up cause she looked at boys and didn't "behave". Finally they all got away and are safe. But I fear the damage was already done to those kids, they are teens now and I wonder how they will treat their partners one day

apartridgeinapeartree Mon 08-Oct-12 21:21:05

He is sober and rational when he starts drinking. He knows what he's capable of when he drinks. Therefore the drink is not an excuse.

He hasn't stopped drinking, so he's comfortable with putting you at risk, and accepts he's going to keep on doing it (no matter what he says to you). If he was really sorry, if he meant it he would have already stopped drinking, a long time ago, rather than risk doing it to you again.

He could well end up killing you. Then it won't be your secret anymore, everyone will know. And they will pity you. And you won't be there to comfort your children in their grief.

Sorry to be harsh but I am concerned for you and I think you're glossing over this very real possibility. In the UK, two women are killed by their violent partner every week, on average.

Please, please get out while you still can. You feel you hate him now, how will you feel next month, next year, next decade? This isn't going to get better.

ThereGoesTheYear Mon 08-Oct-12 21:58:25

What a horrible situation you're in.

Your revenge fantasies are the result in the utter head-fuck of having your partner abuse you. This person who is meant to have your back, love you more than anyone else and be your rock: he's the one who throttles you and threatens you. I can understand your fantasy - I had similar myself in a similar situation. You're feeling so powerless a fantasy like that is somewhere to put your rage at the whole fucking injustice of it. Especially since you've had no other outlet, or RL support through this. And to think that whilst he's doing all of this to your mind and body, you're worried about him and his mental security/view of the world!

You don't really want revenge, though, do you? If you did, you'd very simply and legally split up and put him out in the street. You'd feel too guilty so you're not going to do that, though so I don't believe you'd physically threaten him.

This guy has had a shitty childhood. Of course he has. And he's going to make sure your DCs do too. Either directly by turning the abuse on them; or indirectly by finally killing you, or destroying who you are inside. Even if they don't see anything happening they'll see the effect on you. They'll learn that men have to be pacified.

It's a process to get to the stage of getting rid of an abusive partner. Getting angry is a step in the right direction. Call women's aid for advice or a listening ear - they'll not be judgemental like some of the posters on here. You can call them internationally.

You're right, he is self-indulgent. He still drinks and gives himself permission to attack you. Has he ever throttled anyone else whilst drunk? I wouldn't have thought so. I bet he can control exactly who he loses it with.

FWIW, I think you should cut off his visa and financial support. Maybe losing everything will shock him into getting the help he needs to become a decent human being. Maybe not, but at least you and your babies would be safe.

Busybusybust Mon 08-Oct-12 22:12:13

I dunno - this is a little bit close to Fifty Shades of Grey - don't ah think?

If it is real than OP actually knows that this isn't going to get better. Her promise that she wouldn't leave him - despite his horrible upbringing - well he has abused her and therefore her agreement with him is void.

OP he will kill you - and use his childhood abuse as his defence.

Please leave him.

CharlotteCollinsislost Mon 08-Oct-12 22:52:06

Jux makes a good point, OP, that you don't have to think of leaving.

Leaving is a huge thing. But you could tell him he doesn't get to live with you until he's been through an abuser program, owned up to what he's doing and shown some signs of change. (The UK would be a better place to do this than where you are, but you're not chucking him out of your dc's lives forever.)

He has to want to change.

MagicHouse Mon 08-Oct-12 23:38:29

You asked why it was you don't want to leave. I would guess it's because you want your children to have a "family" with mum and dad in it, and because you think that as he is "lovely most of the time" that will be better for them than if you break up.

The trouble is, as people have experienced, abuse rarely lessens, it gets worse. I think that if you allow someone to abuse you, subconsciously they lose all respect for you, and so it goes on, and it gets worse. And eventually it starts on the children. I think that's when lots of people finally find the strength to leave.

I think people (including me) will tell you to leave, because they desperately want you to avoid what inevitably will happen and get out now, not because they think you are a bad mum or useless for staying.

I think it's healthy (in a strange way) that you are thinking what you are (about revenge) because it means you are really angry about what's going on here. And hopefully that anger and realisation that things are not right will give you the strength to do something about it.

FlorIxora Tue 09-Oct-12 03:06:52

Can you TeddyCam him in the act and play the results to him in front of a counsellor/police officer?

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 06:28:21

I would love to do that but it would be very hard as it doesn't happen often enough. I'm sure if he could see himself he would be shocked. Or have I been watching too much super nanny?

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 06:31:01

I don't feel like I want to hurt / scare him anymore this morning. I just feel numb. I want to feel something for him but I don't.

Inertia Tue 09-Oct-12 07:03:02

Possibly making sweeping generalisations here, but in many ME countries the evidence of women is given very little legal consideration. If you attacked him, even in self-defence, there is every chance that you will be punished / jailed and he will get the children. Think about who he'll be choking and threatening to glass then for speaking in the wrong tone.

Attempting to frighten him won't work. The evidence is there already - he was abused as a child and now he gets revenge by abusing you. If you attempt to exact physical revenge on him, he'll get you back harder next time - or perhaps even start abusing the children to punish you ( and you are misguided if you think he won't - he chooses this, no matter what his history).

You say that he cannot stay if the marriage officially breaks down ( because, let's be honest, this is not a marriage, it's a death sentence). Be clever. Use the fact that you are the earner - you are in a very unusual position in holding the financial power here. You have something that many women in similar situations don't have - control over how you can protect yourself and your children. For once the visa position can protect the woman -uyou can use it to your advantage.

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 07:39:46

Yes of course I can. I deliberately structured my career, living situation and the set up of our residence to ensure I was never trapped - especially given the country in which we live. I saw far too many women literally with no rights whatsoever lose their children and even get imprisioned on spurious adultery charges concocted by their spouses to ever risk that for myself. I am completely in a position of strength here - out of deliberate arrangement. The law here does not protect the rights of wives and mothers (especially if you are a non-Muslim expat funnily enough) so I had to protect myself. And I have a legal background so I was able to do so. I am a thousand times luckier than many other women whose husbands are violent because the only thing which prevents me from leaving is me.

But magic house hit the nail on the head. I want my kids to grow up with two parents as I did. I want us to be a family. 95% of the time thins are good. Can I bring myself to end my marriage when my kids are so happy, my parents so relieved and content that I appear settled and loved, when we have such a warm and close circle of friends and family, when I have a husband who, when he isn't abusive and threatening, is lovely? I have read Too Bad to Stay, Too Good to Leave. It didn't help me decide.

I am not trapped in any practical sense. I am trapping myself with my sense of duty, responsibility and the promises I made when I got married which I do not walk away from lightly - for moral and religious reasons as well as deeply held personal convictions. The only thing which to me trumps my commitment to my husband an marriage is my responsibilities as a mother and at this point in time I 100% believe it is more advantageous for my children for us to be together than not. And I'm sorry if anyone in here thinks otherwise but that is MY judgement as their mother to make being aware of every aspect of our situation not one which a poster on an Internet forum is able to accurately judge.

As soon as that situation changed my decision would be made. At present I am willing to put my own interests and even phyisical safety behind the interests of my children and the commitment I have made to my husband and marriage. Not that I am presently "staying for the children" - is it ever that simple? But that I beleive my children are deriving huge benefit from their close relationship and constant contact with their father and are not in any way being adversely affected by his occasional absuive behavior towards me.

AThingInYourLife Tue 09-Oct-12 07:46:42

Are you including the risk of him killing you when he does his biannual choking in your calculation of what is best for your children?

It's seems an odd kind of responsibility to your children to choose a course if action that involves a realistic chance of leaving them motherless.

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 07:57:49

Just in the interests of truth he has choked me twice in 4 years. So it's not "habitual" to answer a previous poster nor biannual. He does shove, hair pull, grab arms and poke finger in face while throwing things screaming abuse and / or banging furniture around 2 or 3 times a year on average. So only 2 potentially fatal actions. He hasn't done it again since the first time over 3 years ago (pre therapy and medication). Hence my surprise, rage and intense disappointment. I was really really shocked. I suppose if you want to look at it from a purely statistical basis I would e more likely to be injured driving to work than living with my husband. But that is really beside the point. No one should ever ever have to be subjected to the emotional trauma of violence from someone who is supposed to love you.

I am not really concerned about him killing or even seriously injuring me. As I've said before he hasn't even bruised me enough to leave a mark even in his worst episodes. It's the psychological impact on me and the horrible horrible damage to our marriage that these incidents cause which I struggle to deal with the most. And living with the uncertainty of when he may lose it again.

If he stopped drinking altogether it would 90% stop happening but he has been known to lose his temper when sober - only shouting though not physical violence (except once when he ran out of his antidepressants and went cold turkey for 3 days while he waited for his doctor to see him - not pleasant).

I wonder I'd he would give up alcohol altogether if I asked him to. Should I give it up too?

CailinDana Tue 09-Oct-12 08:02:35

What do you think he would say if you asked him to give up drinking?

glastocat Tue 09-Oct-12 08:03:03

I agree a Athinginyourlife. And once left motherless, who is to stop them being next in line? Seriously, you are in huge denial about the dangerousness of your situation, and the damage that will be caused to your children (physical or mental) by you choosing to stay. And I say that as the child of an abusive father who never witnessed any abuse. My parents thought I was unaware. I wasn't. You have a choice to stay or go (and risk serious injury or death). Your poor kids have no such choice.

fusspot66 Tue 09-Oct-12 08:09:23

Oh dear, Revenge..... Choking could kill you in seconds........ Please save yourself....

AThingInYourLife Tue 09-Oct-12 08:10:29

He has choked you twice, so now it is habitual.

He knows he can do it and you won't leave, so you need to count it a a risk factor here.

You are gambling two living parents to provide two parents living together. And odd choice.

I'm not sure your risk of dying in a car accident is smaller than your risk of being choked to death when you live with a violent man who chokes you.

Also, if he screams at you and throw things, do they live in the west wing of a palace, or is this stuff they will definitely hear?

Inertia Tue 09-Oct-12 08:26:53

Well , we all look at it differently. Personally I would prefer my children to grow up with two parents, albeit divorced, than a dead mother and a jailed father - but as you say, it's your decision.

Sorry we are not saying what you want to hear. It's easier to blame internet strangers for the wrong answer and carry on pretending that this is your choice than it is to take control. I'm sorry you're in this position, it's horrific. But you have options that millions of abused women don't have.

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 08:33:34

They sleep 2 floors away with their doors closed and are 2 and 1. We have a large five bedroom house. They sleep 12 - 13 hours a night without fail and fortunately take after me and wouldn't be woken up by a bomb going off (i slept through the 1986 hurricane when our chimney fell in, a drunk driver ploughing through our gate and my mother used to have to wake me for school with a cold flannel). As I mentioned this happens several times a year not a week. So no they haven't been disturbed by it.

I am not under the slightest misapprehension as to the enormity of this impact on ME. I'm the one who goes through it for fucks sake. It does not impact my kids in any way though. In fact my parents are staying with us at present for a holiday and they haven't the foggiest that we are anything other than very happy together. I'm extremely good at getting on with things cheerfully, effectively and positively no matter the circumstances. It's the same as being professional in the work place, being responsible and courteous to friends and family ad ensuring their enjoyment is not impaired by me or my problems.

The fact that I am so good at the whole brave face / happy outside / placid and gentle persona / laughing joking mummy, daughter and friend deal is I am sure one of the reasons I indulged the past few days in vicious, rageful fantasies. Smile on the outside and secretly want to bang someone's head off a wall. Isn't that how we maintain the smooth running of civilized society.

It's ME who I worry about if I stay. Everyone else if I go. If I stay everyone is fine and happy except me who is terrified, angry, victimized, ground down, resentful, full of bitterness and intimately psychologically damaged. Everyone else gets the calm, bright, smiley, jokey, charming, measured, affectionate exterior. THEY are fine.

But if I leave everyone suffers, not just me. I get to not be scared of being abused but in return I cause hurt to all the people I love, and also myself because instead of being afraid and angry but well supported and with someone who 90% of the time i want to be with I get to be lonely, with 50 times more stress and work on my plate because I have no husband to share the daily load of work with.

riverboat Tue 09-Oct-12 08:57:27

Reading your posts is just horrible OP. I'm sitting here on a train and I feel like crying for you.

It reads like you have built up this ridiculous twisted logic to justify the whole situation, that you now completely believe in. That you ASKED him to 'just' slap you instead of do something that would cause respitory arrest...read that back to yourself. Can you not see how twisted that is? I can see its all part if your wider coping mechanism, and that you view your responses generally as measured and non hysterical, but... god. This isnt something to be measured and controlled about! I'm not surprised you're having these bloodthirsty fantasies as a side effect of so much repression.

There are far worse things in this world than divorce. Thousands of children go through it every year. They are fine. As an adult, I am part of a blended family with divorces and step parents and half siblings all over the place. The children ate surrounded by love, more than they would have seen if their parents remained together. They are happy. As a child, my parents had bitter, viscious rows throughout my childhood. At the time I still wanted them to stay together, but now I look back at myself regularly crying under the covers with my fingers stuffed in my ears, and I just feel desperately sad for myself and them. My mother should have got out, I know she stayed for my sake, and I feel truly awful about it.

Imagine your kids as grown ups. Do you think they would look back and be happy and grateful that your put up with yearly beatings so they could have a chocolate box childhood? Would you even WANT to raise kids who thought like that?

raskolnikov Tue 09-Oct-12 09:11:15

Yes, being a single parent can be shitty at times, you're on your own with all the responsibility and little immediate support. Five years on, I'm single with three teenagers and my own business to run, but do you know what - I wouldn't change it for a second. I walked out of a marriage that looked perfect from the outside and now I can choose how to run my life, I'm not walking on eggshells in case I upset anyone, I'm choosing who's in my life, who I can trust to be around myself and my children and who's not worth the trouble. So many women I know stay for the sake of appearances while life moves on and the years go by, hoping that something will change - I see them every day and wonder when they'll grasp the nettle. There's only one person you're fooling...

balia Tue 09-Oct-12 09:16:58

Can you access any counselling/mental health help where you are?

Because

Isn't that how we maintain the smooth running of civilized society.

Erm, no.

AThingInYourLife Tue 09-Oct-12 09:21:14

You could be killed if you stay.

You live with a man who chokes you and threatens you with knives.

He does this when he is completely out of control.

There is a reasonable likelihood that in one of these rages he will hold on for just a moment too long, or use the knife.

And then your children will have no mother.

The day to day stuff, about you martyring yourself by accepting all the psychological pain so they can be happy, founders when you get to how dangerous this man is.

If you die at his hands (and it has to be considered as part of the happiness sums here), there will be a world of pain for everyone.

Except you, obviously, since you will be out of the picture entirely.

Two days ago the choking could be considered a regrettable once off, never to be repeated.

Now you (both) know that this extremely dangerous form of abuse is part of his repertoire.

The maths has changed.

You can't argue that there is no risk of harm to your children while there is a genuine risk (that you acknowledged to start with) of him killing their mother.

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 09:21:14

I think I would rather put up with being violently abused 3 times a year than my children not living with their Dad and me being a single parent. Sorry if that upsets anyone but I really truly do. At this level and ratio of violence to normality anyway. If I left I would be cutting off my nose to spite my face and I would be even more miserable than I am now, as well as making my whole family and my husband miserable too. Better one person unhappy than everyone.

Charliefox Tue 09-Oct-12 09:26:56

So things aren't that bad but yet you're "terrified"? I honestly don't see the point of you posting, as you're clearly not in the least bit interested in changing your situation. You bat away every comment that's made and go on the defensive.

AThingInYourLife Tue 09-Oct-12 09:29:44

The maths is not

Being abused x 3pa > being a single parent

anymore

It's

Being abused (3xpa x risk of death from choking*) < being alive to raise my children

*choking is very dangerous. The risk here is high

balia Tue 09-Oct-12 09:30:26

If you are happy with this bargain you have made, why are you here posting?

And this fantasy you have created - of the only way for anyone in the whole world to be happy is for you to stay married and 'taking' the abuse - do you really think that is what your parents and children would want? If you explained this choice to your mum and said you were staying partly so as not to upset her, d'you think she'd say, 'oh fantastic, Revenge, you are a trooper, yes it is only 3 times a year, well worth it'. Do you imagine in the future your children saying 'Yeah, my mum was fantastic, she let my Dad violently abuse her so he could stay in the house with us'.

Really?

I think I would rather put up with being violently abused 3 times a year than my children not living with their Dad and me being a single parent.

Why would you come to that conclusion? Your children will not be babies for ever and as they get older they will become aware of his rages - it doesn't matter if you live in a mansion or a tent.

You are clearly a highly intelligent woman with financial security but you have also sounded very very angry at points in this thread. The revenge fantasies are part of channelling that anger.

I don't know what more we can say to you OP. If you were reading this about another woman what would you say to them? This will escalate as the years pass and you know it's wrong but until you act i wish you all the best in the future. Stay safe.

Badvoc Tue 09-Oct-12 09:32:49

If he succeeds one day and kills you are you happy to accept him to going to jail and your kids going into care?
Because that's the trade off.
Not one person being unhappy, but lives over and a family destroyed.

raskolnikov Tue 09-Oct-12 09:32:50

You're not responsible for everyone else's happiness. Every day we make choices about how we behave and your husband chooses to beat you up to make himself feel better, in the knowledge that you've promised never to abandon him. He's passed all the responsibility over to you and you're taking it. When your children grow up would you recommend that as a course of action to your son - follow in his father's footsteps? - or to your daughter - take a beating now and then so everthing will look rosy and you can play happy families? Its only a matter of time before the children become aware of what's happening.

Your children not living with their Dad wouldn't be the end of the world for you, him or them. You can arrange access, he may even make an effort to sort himself out for their sake and they can have the strong, caring, responsible mother they deserve.

CailinDana Tue 09-Oct-12 09:34:36

You aren't ready to leave yet, that much is clear. It's great that you've talked about it though, that's at least something. You have completely justified staying, and it doesn't sound like you're going to be convinced otherwise. It's hard to argue against your logic because it's based on so many assumptions - the main one being that everyone else's happiness and safety is worth a lot more than yours. I'm not sure where you got that idea from but it is firmly entrenched and is the basis of your beliefs. Until you start valuing yourself your happiness and safety you're going to continue to be abused. Just remember you can always come back here for (sometimes tough-talking) support.

riverboat Tue 09-Oct-12 09:35:02

I honestly think you're deluding yourself OP.

If and when your children catch on to what he is doing to you, do you not think the knowledge if what they are living with is going to have a profound and lifelong effect on them?

Do you want to teach your daughter that violence is to be put up with? How would you feel if she ends up in a position like yours, years down the line?

How can you deny the risk that eventually he'll do it to one of them?

God knows I'm not saying leaving would be easy for any of you. But your reasons for staying are warped.

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 10:09:31

Of course they are warped. How else could anyone stay with a man who is violent and abusive? I know I am warped. I don't want to be warped. But I don't want to be a single parent either. Lets face it none if the options are good are they?

I'm 36 years old with 2 kids under 2, I work full time at a v stressful job in order to desperately try to keep our heads above water due to my husbands massive debts, I am an only child, my dad has cancer and my parents live 4000 miles away plus I have a husband who is violent. I can just about keep it all together when he is being nice to me. When he abuses me and just adds to an already almost intolerable burden of stress I think I might just go over the edge.

I am trying SO hard to be everything everyone needs me to be and I just don't know how much longer I can keep it all together. I just need to. We have a meeting tonight on a prospective business opportunity which would enable him to get his own visa and be financially independent. I just have to pull this off and close the deal. Then maybe with some of the pressure off me I can think straight.

riverboat Tue 09-Oct-12 10:40:35

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh. Your posts just made me feel so desperate for you.

Good luck with tonight, I hope its a step on the road to a life you deserve.

foolonthehill Tue 09-Oct-12 10:47:42

I'm 36 years old with 2 kids under 2, I work full time at a v stressful job in order to desperately try to keep our heads above water due to my husbands massive debts, I am an only child, my dad has cancer and my parents live 4000 miles away plus I have a husband who is violent

And this is how we get tied in, and feel that there is no exit opportunity. If your husband is like mine then he will ensure that the business opportunity that you work hard to get will come to nothing (or produce more debts) (but it will look like it's not his fault and he has been working his balls off)he will either never be issued with a visa or it will somehow be revoked (if he can manage it)But this will not happen quickly and he may talk you into another pregnancy/baby (three is such a lovely number) and maybe a house move just to keep you on the hop.

I am trying SO hard to be everything everyone needs me to be I know I can feel you desperation and fear and just sheer bloody tiredness from it all.

You may not be able to think about leaving just now, you may have to walk this path for a little longer, but believe me, even at nearly a decade older than you, with many more children, debts, no family and very little support, my life is STILL better without him. You will not realise how little his good times are actually worth and how much mental energy he takes until he is not there any more. I have confidence that you will find that better place, keep reading about emotional abuse if you can as Physical abuse is almost never acted out without EA.

If/when you need practical advice on strategies to extract yourself then post again. There's a wealth of experience here for you to tap into. (and you can have as many personae/names as you want as we are not in your real life!!)

CogitoErgoSometimes Tue 09-Oct-12 10:50:36

"I think I would rather put up with being violently abused 3 times a year than my children not living with their Dad and me being a single parent"

Why did you post on MN exactly? Just a short read through of the threads on this and other message boards would have demonstrated pretty quickly that MN members are, fairly unilaterally, anti-DV in all its forms. Mostly women post for support in getting out of violent relationships. Some will post for reassurance wondering if their relationship is violent or not. Many are scared stiff of leaving violent partners, splitting up families, upsetting children, spending life as a sole parent, financial difficulties etc.

I think you're the one and only woman I've ever seen stoutly defend their decision to stay put and choose to be an abused wife. I've heard a few men try to defend that position (not on MN I hasten to add). Men who suggest that every woman needs a good slap every so often. Or men who argue that they're not violent men & they love their family.... it's just that their wife winds them up occasionally and they can't help themselves.

So if you have no intention of changing your living circumstances and are quite happy with the arrangement... why post in an anti-DV forum expecting support?

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 10:51:39

Your poor thiing. I am lizlemon from earlier btw. I was 37 when I left. NO wonder you're aneasthetised. You have to be a bit anaesthetised to run on auto-plot. YOu are obviously a very strong person though. You are holdiing it together in the short term. If you get on the wheel and run run run you can stay on the wheel. YOu feel like you can make no more effort.

So, marshall your thoughts, line up your ducks and only when you know you can dig deep into that 'bag' and take a DEEP breath can you leave or end it. Because ending a relationship like this DOES take an enormous amount of effort. It can be harder to leave than to just go through another day on auto-pilot walking on egg shells and hoping for the best.

Another thing about leaving it til you are ready is that you have NO regrets. I could have left a bt sooner than I did and yeh I do wish I had, but I had no regrets. I never felt anything but freedom. I had a baby and a 3 year old. That was tough in one way, because the one rucksack i had with me was full of nappies and changes of clothes for the kids, but in other ways it has been easy because the chldren don't remember beng taken away from what seemed like a conventional family. They've no memories of it. They don't miss it.

I hope that thyis thread is a nudge for you. That is as much as anybody can reasonably expect. You will get there. I know you will, because you are angry. AT the right moment, that anger will be channelled in to the 'deep breath' that you need to end things.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 10:54:35

"I think I would rather put up with being violently abused 3 times a year than my children not living with their Dad and me being a single parent"

I don't remember reading ths , but I can tell you first hand being a single parent is better!! I get to enjoy thngs now. I enjoyed nothing before. I can relax, I can make decsions, the joy is not sapped out of every tny thing.

ARe you worried about appearing to be happy, or being happy?

Which will you prioritise? Because I acknowledge now (through psychotherapy ;-p ) that for years I prioritised appearing to be happy. foolish of me.

I'm pretty sure my mum would say I didn't know about the abuse.

But I did.

I would curl up under my bedsheets at night, blocking out the crashing and yelling by sticking my fingers in my ears and rocking.

I could sense the atmosphere in the house.

I used to dream every night that he would kill us.

I was terrified to leave mum alone with him.

I WAS 3 YEARS OLD

You are delusional OP. I have been on medication and suffer from anxiety entirely due to the abusive bastard who was supposed to protect us and his enabling, apologetic, wife. My mother. I am now 43 years old and it never leaves me, ever.

So carry on in denial lala land, your DC will not have that priviledge if you continue to stay in this dance.

jeee Tue 09-Oct-12 10:59:57

OP, if your husband can get a visa and so be financially independent would he then be in a position to keep the children should you decide to leave him?

Is this a deal that is in your interest to pull off?

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 11:00:12

ps, it took me from April to July. around about mid April I thought, I can't do this anymore. Cogs were shifting in my brain. People on a thread on a forum in ireland were getting frustrated wth me that I wasn't leaving quicker!! But i knew that if I went back in July for a frends wedding then I would just not return and that would be the safest way. (as it happened, he rumbled me) but there was a plan. And at least, there was a flight booked and paid for that I could get on to. I'd posted documents to my parents. I 'd posted a couple of changes of clothing to my parents. I'd been able to say good bye to one or two ffriends, I'd informed mobile phone company/banks etc...

obviously if your life is in danger that stuff is small fry, but the opportunity to dot a few Is made the 'escape' slightly less unsettling. I'm not recommending waiting but I do understand it.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 11:01:40

good queston gee. YOu might be better OP to return to your home country before 'habitual domicile' is too established. when a child is under two, it can't really be argued that they have friends and/or are linked into services in that country.......

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 11:08:05

So if you have no intention of changing your living circumstances and are quite happy with the arrangement... why post in an anti-DV forum expecting support?

How precisely did you arrive at the notion I am happy? Clearly unless I jump quick smart to do exactly what judgmental sanctimonious posters like you tell me I HAVE to do I can expect zero support or sympathy and indeed have no RIGHT to even start a post.

I've posted here because I have NO ONE ELSE. I've told no one what my husband does. I've told no one how hard I'm finding things. I've told no one how difficult things are right now and just how close I am to FLIPPING THE FUCK OUT!!!!!

You may not agree with my choices, you may not empathize with or understand my motives r dilemmas but I have as much right to post here as anyone else. Even if its just to write down and get out some of this melee in my head. And if that's you're idea of support Cogito I suggest you fuck off to am I being unreasonable.

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 11:13:39

Jeee, he could afford to keep himself and pay his debt (which I pay and have done for years) but not the kids. I also had the kids on my visa and would never have it any other way. He wouldn't get custody.

What this job could mean is that if i chose to end the marriage he could stay out here and be near them and afford to live independently from me. Which would mean I wasn't leaving him high and dry with nothing. And also would mean a financial weight off my shoulders.

madda Tue 09-Oct-12 11:14:35

who is more important OP, your kids or your husband? You have to choose.

1. if you act out your revenge, it may well backfire, he will attack you harder
2. if you do nothing, deny everything, you kids will suffer. He will continue.

Either way, your kids are going to lose you - either he will eventually kill you, or you him and you'll go to prison. Kids into care.

Sort this out. Today.

for the sake of your children, you know that leaving is the only safe option.

i wish you well whatever you decide.

but I dread the future for your kids if you stay.

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 11:15:20

To add - it would be different if we had boys but under sharia law of this country girls automatically stay with the mother until 12. At which point if there was any question of a custody dispute I'd return to Europe.

aufaniae Tue 09-Oct-12 11:17:12

OP I think you are already on the path to leaving as this man is not going to improve. One day, he will push you further than you can bear.

What incentive does he have to change? By staying with him, and supporting him, you are complicit in this awful abuse of you.

Making him know how much he's hurting you isn't enough. He knows that already. You say he went to counselling and didn't even discuss it. It's simply not a burning issue for him.

As your DCs get older, they will become aware of his abuse of you. You all live in the same house, you won't be able to hide it forever.

madda Tue 09-Oct-12 11:17:14

you have every right to post here and get your thoughts out byw, ignore posters who may just be feeling frustrated and upset

they want the best for you

aufaniae Tue 09-Oct-12 11:18:20

FWIW I would be devastated if my children stayed with an abusive partner because they didn't want to break an illusion of being happy which they'd presented to me. How would you feel if your DD was being strangled and was miserable but put up with it partly as she didn't want to upset you, would you be happy with that arrangement?

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 11:18:39

Yeh folks, please lay off the instructions 'leave today'. Give her a chance to gather her thoughts!

I posted a thread lke this april 2007 and it was early July by the time I left. But the cogs in my brain were shifting all that time. ykwim.

REvenge, here's a cup of brew

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 11:20:08

ps, relieved to hear that girls will stay with you and that custody won't be another uphill battle you'll have to face. Good. Phew, that's one nightmare crossed off your list!

EldritchCleavage Tue 09-Oct-12 11:20:54

Revenge, reading this thread today you sound so trapped. And the thread has become a black/white discussion of leave/stay, which isn't helping.

Without wanting to sound critical, I think the big mistake you are making (and what some posters are trying to point out), is that the status quo is not stable. Please don't assume, let alone take for granted, that things will stay as they are indefinitely. You say you can cope with things as they are now, just, and the rare outbursts your husband has are a price worth paying for a two parent family etc.

I say, please be aware that (i) he could get worse, i.e. more violent to you and violent to the children (and probably will); (ii) even if he doesn't get worse exactly any ONE of these violent incidents could kill or injure you, leaving your poor children VERY vulnerable indeed (I really don't think it is scaremongering to say this); (iii) you may find that you just can't live like this any more. You are close to flipping out, you say-what happens if you do? Violence, a breakdown, unable to hold down your job-where would that leave you and your family?

Leaving doesn't need to mean leaving now, with all the consequences you fear. But I think you mustn't put your life on hold and martyr yourself to the two parent family, can't disappoint anybody ideal.

Make plans to leave, even if only in a couple of year's time. Have a fall-back plan, an emergency plan-money, stashed documents, a friend in RL you confide in who could take you in in an emergency, a secret credit card, counselling for you on your own, explore coming back to the UK, whatever. But please do this.

Redline Tue 09-Oct-12 11:26:53

Miss RVRU/OP? I wasn't going to post in here being a man but was so worried by what I was reading? That I will - first briefly now & when I've time & am not busy later? More in detail? Suffice to say I can see where you're coming from and (being a man) probably read what your DH's nature is like as a Man; Why do I say this? Because (& it's not easy to admit this) I suffered DV - a Hell of a lot of it from my ex-fiancee & in the end? I broke us up deliberately as otherwise? She would have killed/seriously injured me & she Did beat me senseless a couple of times;

Suffice to say? I did the right thing but will go into that later - also? I think I know Why you're getting defensive/angry when people question you on here - you want unquestioning support don't you? People to talk to you - Try to understand but Not question you right now as you're confused enough as it is & yes I Know how you feel I went through the same battles & being pulled in 5 different directions myself for nearly 6 years!! And yes when people asked me or told me what I was doing in staying with her was wrong? I jumped on them to; Eventually I realised but not before a Lot of damage was done on the way. Not good sad and worse by far for our (now 3 year old - then a baby DS).

Anyway? Since I have some idea of what you're trying to say (I think) and where you're coming from as well as (being a bloke) having a fair idea what Might happen/where He's coming from/what he'll do eventually? Let me have a think & I'll write again to you later with the best advice I can give you Miss & no? I'm Not going to question you yet;

I believe you, I believe In you that you can sort this somehow as you sound intelligent, erudite, concise, adult & professional in all else you've done bar this mind battle you've got going on with yourself that might be currently clouding your sense of what's right & what's wrong for you & your DC; Anyway for now Miss? I'll hold your hand on here & offer you all the support I can for now? It's up to you what to do but I have an idea of what course of action I think you should - I'll leave that for now though & just say. I'm here for you to give you support if you need it? Hope that helps revenge. Good luck in making your mind up if you Do before I next post? If not then hope we might speak soon.

I'll be back later & post again then. Keep well Revenge & Take Care Miss.

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 11:27:03

I think there is some seriously impaired logic at work in the conclusion that I will inevitably be killed by my husband. And a heavy dose if exaggeration and melodrama there. It is certainly POSSIBLE but quite unlikely. What is more likely is that e will continue to have te same infrequent outbursts that he has had over the last five years. There has been no pattern of escalation. His outbursts had in fact been becoming consistently LESS frequent and violent prior to this last incident. But that pattern is impossible to predict of course.

I appreciate the responses but hysterical exaggeration isn't really useful.

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 11:29:40

Cross posted eldritch. I k ow you're right. It could get worse. Much worse. There is no way of knowing it won't. I k ow that.

springyhope Tue 09-Oct-12 11:32:09

Keep going OP. Keep reading all the stuff. You are so articulate that, when the time comes, you'll be an expert at guiding people in the exact-same position you are in now - you'll know all the excuses. It takes time but I, for one, am very glad to hear your reasons for staying are slowly crumbling. That's how it goes, it takes time. It took him a long time to hook you in - they play the long game, abusers - it'll take a while to unravel it all. I have been in the position you are in now, married to an abuser.

personally, I'd be terrified to be in a domestic abuse situation in a country where sharia law holds sway. run for the (british) hills my dear. Take your daughters with you and don't look back.

(you may think this is extreme. It so isn't but perhaps you can't see that yet . When you finally go you will not care what happens to him, whether his gets his visa schmisa or not. You will only worry about the next poor cow who gets hooked into his abusive shit.)

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 11:33:04

Thanks to the last four or five posters you've really helped.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 11:40:32

I think you've made a LOT of progress since the thread started about 36 hours ago! HUGE shift in what you are acknowledging. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Even if the violence doesn't escalate, your ... levels of optmism about the future might dwindle. Your strength might falter. Your children will ask tougher questions. It will still get harder not easier even if the pattern of violence stays the same,

I was 'lucky' to only have to answer questons from a nearly four year old. I can do nothing now! I'm interrogated!!! Who are you going out with? how do dyou know her? hmmm,you're seeing a lot of her [suspicious]

Redline Tue 09-Oct-12 11:41:01

Like I said before? Some of us might not agree with why you're saying what you are but? We're all here for you & will hold your hand/help you as best we can; Am here for you Revenge. Here's my hand if you need it <offers hand>

Take Care an' I'll write to you again soon.

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 11:41:28

I believe under sharia law what my husband does would be classed as "reasonable chastisement" and is perfectly permissible from husband to wife. So to those who suggest I call the police hollow laugh

Redline Tue 09-Oct-12 11:43:36

On another subject? That's one of the many several reasons why I think Sharia Law is a F*cking abomination & should Never see the light of day in UK but that's my own opinion. It's barbaric & treats women as little better than chattel or animals & that? Is just wrong.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 11:43:52

lol at run for the british hills! i'm inclined to agree!

when you get back to the uk you can reassure your dad that it's not the end of the world for your generation (and it's NOT, seriously, it's tough for a while but it 's not the disgrace it once was!). Reassure your dad that you are glad that life has taken this turn, that you get to spend time with him, and that you will be raising your girls in the UK afterall. It's all in how you present it. If you tell people with the relief in your voice so PALPABLE, people will be happy for you that the bad times are BEHIND you. They won't put their heads to one side and say aw that you're a single parent!

JennerOSity Tue 09-Oct-12 11:47:36

Hello OP - I have only read your posts not the whole thread, I don't think you sound like a twat you sound incredibly intelligent, loving and strong to me! You are in a complicated situation in which the options aren't black and white, as you say every choice has a price to pay.

Just wanted to say - you sound amazing.

As an aside, I don't know how good an idea it would be - I don't know him and haven't thought about it deeply, but could you get little cameras installed which he doesn't know about, which record on continuous loop? - Then when he does this you can show it back to him and perhaps make him wake up to what he is doing - you say he doesn't equate the choking with the hitting he did - but maybe if he was shocked by seeing the violence he might realise it is at least as bad? This could maybe galvanise him to continue the 'I abuse my wife' conversation with the therapist, maybe even lead to his agreement to give up alcohol?

Redline Tue 09-Oct-12 11:50:54

Anyway? Got to go out now so I'll be back later - will just say I Know from what I've read that you might be a little upset by some replies on here but? Everyone has your best interests & safety at heart - some are just a little stronger about how they put it is all but? None of them are having a go at you & all are very worried/concerned for you.

Anyway? Maybe Reread & see what you think of all the replies you've had so far & what they've said (& do say/write later) on here - write all you like to get all the support you can (we're all here for you Miss) & since it's pretty obvious given where you are that any changes of whatever kind will have to come from you (no help or support systems?) when you're secure in your own mind & happy with yourself?

Then & only then make your decision - but don't leave it to long; I did that & it gets harder if you go so far & then stop. And once/if you decide to change anything? Follow it Right through; Don't stop or backslide; Right I've said enough for now - I'll be back later;

Take Care Miss. We're here for you & believe in You.

springyhope Tue 09-Oct-12 11:51:19

Revenge fantasies? I had them by the bucketload. They came true, I'm sorry/happy to say (still confused on that one) - what are the chances of that? In short, he got his comeuppance but I didn't have a hand in it, thankfully. My fantasies were similar to yours (violent). It's a good sign, despite all, that you are close to breaking the spell.

[I know I sound like I'm crowing but I'm on the other side now and I still shudder at what it was like on your side, still incredibly angry at what he did, what he was like, what he put me through.]

GloriaTechnicolour Tue 09-Oct-12 12:07:52

Haven't read the whole thread, op, but have read your posts. I think if you want revenge, the best thing you can do is leave.

You want the bits inbetween the violence - you can have that with someone else. You sound so stressed and ground down (obviously), but this is your life, your one go at it. I think the notion of martyering yourself for the good of everyone else (one unhappy person is better than an unhappy family) is flawed and also sets you up for a life of bitterness and resentment and seeing yourself as a victim.

I would also be very concerned that your dcs will be aware of his violence towards you when they're older, and that he might also turn on them when they're older too.

Your husband is not your responsibility, you do not need to carry him through life. Look after yourself and your children, take a step back, try to see that the things you're worried about are logistical and not worth staying with a violent partner for.

I don't think I've been as articulate as I would like, but I wish you all the best and hope you can see that a way out from this is not as hard at appears.

izzyizin Tue 09-Oct-12 12:12:18

I would advise you to think very carefully before you knock yourself out to close a deal that will give your violent h more power over you by enabling him to use the laws of the country you are living in against you should you attempt to separate from him.

The reasons you are giving for staying with him are in the nature of excuses rather than any rationale based on logic and, to remove one 'reason' why you should say with him, if his debts were incurred in Europe/Americas/Asia or anywhere other than the Middle East, it is unlikely that you can be successfully pursued to discharge them.

I have no doubt you are aware that, despite your attempt to assume a brave front and minimise the violent assaults he's perpetrated on you to an extent that makes you fear for your life, his violence is escalating and the, now 'several', assaults you sustain each year will become more frequent and, more especially, because you have revealed they are not always fuelled by alcohol.

Under the circumstances, you are best advised to take steps to cancel his spousal visa ,buy him a ticket back to his home country and inform him that, after he has sought and completed treatment for his serious issues, you will give consideration to resuming your marriage but, until such time as you are assured by the professional(s) who treat him that he poses no risk to your physical wellbeing, you intend to ensure that you are able to live without of violent assault from.

Frankly, cutting him off at the knees in this manner is the ony way you are going to have the personal equilibrium required to continue spinning the numerous plates it takes to combine a high powered career with motherhood and, of course, it is a way of enacting your fantasies in rl without fear of retaliation which will give you greater security than if you went at him with rope, frying pan, or other implements in rl.

You will no doubt need to secure the services of a nanny or nannies and other staff to enable you to pursue your goals/dreams but, in utilising these services, you will not be raising your dc in a manner that is markedly different from numerous other high achieving single parents or, for that matter, high achieving parents where both are working full time.

As for having an h around to talk over the events of the day, you can maintain your illusion that this man in any way enhances your life by Skype or similar on a daily/nightly/weekly basis but I feel sure that, once you are free from the stultifying fear of his unpredictable violent outbusts, you will not miss him one iota and will rapidly establish a network of like-minded friends to fill any gaps his absence temporarily leaves both in your mind and in reality.

If this was a case of you choosing to live with a violent man then, meh, your life, your choice, but you have dc to consider and the time is long overdue for you to make their welfare and wellbeing of paramount importance and get your violent h out of your life before he inflicts serious injury or worse on you and/or harms them... and I suspect that you are as sure as I am that it's only a matter of time before this occurs.

Reading your thread has made me feel despairing that an obviously intelligent women is prepared to dumb herself down to an extent that she can't see the writing on the wall and recognise that the major problem she has in her life is one that is easily resolvable and that it's within her power to resolve it immediately.

You hold all the cards; he's completely dependent on your goodwill and you're in a position to call all the shots. Whatever is stopping you from exercising the power you have over him is a fallacy and, unless you rapidly revise your mindset, you'll continue to place yourself in needless danger for nothing more than an illusion of how you wish things to be rather than what they actually are.

izzyizin Tue 09-Oct-12 12:15:11

editing failure: end of para 4 'to live without of violent assault from' should read to live without fear of violent assault from him

AThingInYourLife Tue 09-Oct-12 12:21:47

"I think there is some seriously impaired logic at work in the conclusion that I will inevitably be killed by my husband. And a heavy dose if exaggeration and melodrama there. It is certainly POSSIBLE but quite unlikely."

I don't think anyone has said it is inevitable.

Just that it is live possibility that needs to be considered when you do the calculations and claim you are better off where you are.

Unlikely outcomes with devastating consequences should get a lot of weight when you think about what is best.

Most women don't need to factor in the possibility of death by strangulation when they decide whether to stay, but you do.

If you do nothing else as a result of this thread, please ask him to stop drinking. A 90% reduction in your chances of being choked is worth having.

Why has he so much debt?

Is he financially as well as physically abusive?

He sounds less and less like the perfect man between attacks.

springyhope Tue 09-Oct-12 12:25:54

stunning post izzy <awe>

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 12:28:23

He has a property in negative equity and a personal loan secured on it. He is not profligate.

izzyizin Tue 09-Oct-12 12:33:50

Presumaby his property is rented out and he's deriving an income from it that services his personal loan. If not, that's his problem. Send him to his home to sort it.

GossipWitch Tue 09-Oct-12 12:45:58

Always had fantasies by doing this to my exh, after 2 years I started hitting back, (by then I knew where his weak points were) it made no sodding difference to how he treated me it just ended up in a big brawl. then I got sneaky, emptying the kettle after I used it, putting the toaster up full, putting pepper in his boxers, but the best revenge I ever had was ringing the police on his ass and then he had to move in with his mum again grin

madda Tue 09-Oct-12 12:56:09

btw, when i mentioned 'sort this out, today' I didnt meant leave today, I meant, take steps today to getting a PLAN - an exit plan, but some sort of plan.

posters are listening and just putting themselves in your shoes, and offering the best advice they can. Pls dont knock them for not being as helpful as you would like. Everyone reacts differently to situations - fight or flight.Some flee, some would rather stay and fight. In your situation, I am baffled as to why anyone would hang around such an unpredictable man, waitinf for his next outburst, which may happen later this week or in another year. i dont know why I would accept this behaviour from a DH, I wouldnt accept it from a stranger who attacked me, I would go immediately to police, but somehow, it is ok for a DH to think he can do this?

you sound amazingly strong and confident and successful - surely you know that to let a man treat you like this and trap you into a web of unpredictable behaviour and outbursts, leaving hou walking on eggshells in your home is a little bit demeaning?

I'm just about to go off to the doctors for my monthly meeting re: my ongoing anxiety disorder.

No melodrama here, just facts.

springyhope Tue 09-Oct-12 13:20:59

I have a friend who still suffers in a similar way to you, Katie, because of her parent's violent marriage. Turns out she only found out when she was in her 20s that it was violent. Even though she was 'safely' tucked up in bed when it happened, she lived in that house. It gets into everyone's bones, one way or another.

I think one of the reasons posters have been knee-jerk is because what you are saying is very hard to hear OP. The justifications etc. It's just hard to hear it.

I always knew, it was never discussed springy , she finally left when I was about 8 or 9. Although I understand why I feel as I do, despite massive self-help, medication and counselling I still can't control how I feel, IYSWIM? When I think of another soul potentially serving THIS sentence, it's very hard to hear indeed.

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 13:31:48

Katie - my husband is you. Except he was also beaten until he bled was sat in ice baths to hide the bruises from SS as well as seeing his brother sister and mother battered and no one being allowed to leave the house. He also has an ongoing anxiety disorder which he is medicated for. He KNOWS what this kid of behavior does to children because he was one. But still there are times when he is overwhelmed by his issues and reverts to the same sick things he saw his dad do.

THAT is why I find it hard to leave. Because I still see the damaged child in him. And it hurts me to think of abandoning that child in him.

But I would do it for my own children. If I have to.

springyhope Tue 09-Oct-12 13:32:34

My point, Katie, is that my friend never heard it, yet it still did the damage. I can attest to that with my own kids, though I was never hit. It's in the air, the kids breath it.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 13:35:24

I agree Izzyizzin, handing over more power to him in such an environment is not a good plan.

CailinDana Tue 09-Oct-12 13:36:08

It strikes me that you are blaming everyone else for your unhappiness Revenge. You can't leave your husband because it will upset you parents, it will upset your children, it will upset your husband. Posters here are upsetting you by not giving you the support you want. At what point do you say "actually I have control of my own life, and I am responsible for what happens"?

In fact what will happen if you do leave him is that your husband will have to sort himself out the way all adults do, your parents will be surprised but happy that you're ok, and your children will end up with a far happier safer life in the long run.

Why are you hiding behind them and letting them take the blame for you not doing what you need to do?

musicismylife Tue 09-Oct-12 13:37:03

OP, the best form of revenge is to walk away and never look back. I do think that your feelings are normal, given the circumstances. I know that when my ex-partner did all of those things and more, the only way I could find inner peace was to totally disengage with the fucker. I must say that when I was still with him, I used to have 'fantasies' about him walking in on me sh*gging someone else (as I found him), for him to see me hand-in-hand with some rich hunk skippety-skipping down the street. Why? Because for one second, I wanted him to see what it felt like but OP, men like this don't care what it feels like. Do you really think that if you behaved like he did, he would be scared? In the same way as you? Yes, he would be momentarily scared but your abuse is on a backdrop of more and more abuse.

He also knows that you are not going to leave him, so of course he is going to be more and more sick. There is only one way to resolve this situation and that really is to stay away from him. Then that way you don't have to be 'fantasising' about this and that. You can have a happier life in reality. There is no punishment for his 'crime' so he will carry on doing whatever and blaming it on his childhood.

X

See, I made it my business never to force my DC to live as I did.

I suppose it can go either way.

But since your DH has insight into how this affects children, and chooses to continue the pattern regardless, tells me you can't save this one, OP.

raskolnikov Tue 09-Oct-12 13:46:13

... If I have to

So you're waiting for a trigger - I wonder what would be serious enough for you to make a move?

I do know what its like to want to take care of people and to want the best for them and I can see that you want to rescue him, but isn't this like an addiction? Surely he needs to want to change his behaviour permanently. He's made some sort of effort but it wasn't successful - so he needs to put a lot more work in to get a result. If he isn't 100% on the case he won't succeed and you'll be facing the same experiences time after time and watching your daughters see it happen.

They do, springy

<off to do RL and have a little sob for a bit, this stuff is hard>

springyhope Tue 09-Oct-12 13:50:01

My ex also had a pitiful childhood, really bad. I cried and cried for him (he, strangely dry-eyed - they find people to do their emotions for them). But, see, I wasn't there, I didn't do it to him, I wouldn't have condoned if I were there. I was nowhere near, it had nothing to do with me: innocent, gov'ner. So why did I have to pay for it? Because he was not prepared to deal with it himself.

He went on to marry some poor cow and one day he started rambling on about his horrific childhood and I made a throwaway quip [hard bitch] and she pleaded with me with her eyes, bleating how awful it had been for the poor lamb. Ah yes, I sound like a hard bitch but I'd already paid the price for his childhood, and how.

springyhope Tue 09-Oct-12 13:54:14

Plus, you're not his foster mother. He's an adult, so are you. Time to step up, husband (as long as you cover for him he will never step up. Or he'll find some other poor cow to hang his agony on, purely because he is not prepared to deal with it himself. Hard, but true.)

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 13:54:28

springyhope, your first paragraph +1

Same.

izzyizin Tue 09-Oct-12 14:23:38

But still there are times when he is overwhelmed by his issues and reverts to the same sick things he saw his dad do Unless he gets professional help now it's probable he will inflict the same sick things he saw his dad do on his own dc and his urge to do so will become more acute when they attain the age he was when he was first subjected to physical, verbal, and emotional maltreatment, or became aware that his home environment left much to be desired in comparison with those of the majority of his peers.

As for abandoning the child in him, it's probable that he already feels supplanted by his dc and his sense of displacement will also become more acute as they grow and he sees you engaging with them in ways which his mother failed to do with him.

You should not allow the compassion you feel for the child he once was to blind you to the fact that child has grown into a damaged adult who is prone to outburts of violence without provocation, nor should you allow your sympathy for that child cause you to lose sight of the fact that you now have 2 dc of your own to protect from his excesses.

You can't communicate with the child in him; only he can engage in conversations with his inner child if he so chooses, either alone or with the help of a psychiatrist/psychologist or other trained professional.

You're best advised to ensure that any such dialogue is conducted well away from your home and that he is not in a postion to return until you have received assurance that he will no longer use his demons to torment you.

Inertia Tue 09-Oct-12 14:34:46

His childhood was appalling. No child should should have to suffer that abuse. Nor should the wife (or children) of the abuse survivor.

Clearly he has terrible mental health issues to deal with. But the key point here is that nothing that what either of you are doing now is going to make anything any better. You put up with the violence, the knife threats, the choking- and he gets away with and comes back to do it again. It won't stop, ever, - he doesn't see a trained professional to deal with the issues he has because he can just take his anger out on you, like a human punchbag. You want to make things better , you don't want to abandon him- but all the evidence shows that this isn't working.

It might well be the case that the only way he can begin to recover is to take responsibility for his own actions. You're covering up for his violence and sorting his debts isn't creating - this does not increase his respect for you and your safety one bit.

foolonthehill Tue 09-Oct-12 14:37:14

over 75% of people who grow up with abuse DO NOT abuse their families when they are adults.

No research that I am aware of has ever found any difference between those that do abuse and those that don't except in their attitude and empathy to others..which appears to be (at least in part) a choice.

it is certainly his choice to inflict these behaviours on you by continuing to drink alcohol and failing to seek help for his problems.

izzyizin Tue 09-Oct-12 14:42:02

There are many who have used the appalling abuse and neglect they have suffered in their childhoods as templates for what they don't want their nearest and dearest to experience.

These folk have exercised their free will, choice, determination, willpower, whatever you wish to term it, to ensure that they and their loved ones have lives that are infinitely more loving and fulfilling than the lives they experienced as children.

If you maintain that your h's tormented childhood is cause or reason for him not to be able to make a similar choice and to exercise the necessary restraint to control his violence, you are effectively saying that he is not safe to be around others by virtue of diminished mental capacity.

izzyizin Tue 09-Oct-12 14:52:42

X post with fool. Different words, same content.

It can come as something of a shock to realise that a tortured, tormented, victim of childhood abuse who has evoked our compassion and desire to 'make it better' for them has in, effect, elected to become a violent aggressor who shows no mercy to their victims.

In your OP you stated he returned home with his shirt ripped because he'd been fighting. Was this the first such incident or is it something of a common occurence when he goes out drinking?

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 15:17:15

I really want to show him this thread.

izzyizin Tue 09-Oct-12 15:22:09

And what do you think that's going to do? Invoke more false promises from him?

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 15:22:12

He rarely goes out drinking (once every few months) but when he does he invariably in completely unable to be moderate in hi alcohol intake and gets into fights, can't find his way home, loses his wallet / keys / jacket etc. if I am with him he is fine - this is only when he goes out without me.

He used to fight all the time when he was young. Got convicted if assault a couple if times in his early 20s. Got into trouble at work for it and for being pissed / hungover ( was in the army ). But had fantastically glowing promotion reports and was very well liked and highly respected by senior officers.

izzyizin Tue 09-Oct-12 15:24:11

Showing him this thread will cause him to store up more jealousy and resentment towards you, honey. NOT a good idea.

Use any knowledge you gain here to empower yourself - not him.

ThereGoesTheYear Tue 09-Oct-12 15:24:52

do not show him this thread

Get things straight in your own head before even thinking of inviting him into this safe place. You have zero support ATM apart from this thread. (As an aside, try to get some: counselor, friend, Womens Aid). Don't throw it away. If you want him to know the effect of abuse on children, well he already knows that, doesn't he? But there's lots of other literature out there. Not this. Don't let him see this. Or the next time something happens you'll not have this place.

izzyizin Tue 09-Oct-12 15:28:38

So basically what you are saying is he's always been a violent twunt.

Not a great deal different to what we've been telling you, is it?

Save any sympathy you feel for him and lavish it on making yourself and your dc safe.

Don't do any deal that will enable him to gain any more ascendance over you and make plans to 'repatriate' him sooner rather than later.

Once you've got rid of him, your life is going to soar take on a whole new dimension and you and your dc will be able to become all that you can be without fear.

izzyizin Tue 09-Oct-12 15:33:27

In the meantime, send him out without you more often in the hope that his nature will take its course and save you funding his airfare back to Blightly or wherever while he experiences life as a guest of whatever King or Sheikh rules the country you live in.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 15:34:01

no way show him this thread! he will devalue us all and discredit us all as a bunch of lesbian feminist saddoes who live on line. ONe woman (in a similar situation to myself) her husband called them 'the backslapping brigade'. said with a sneer though.

springyhope Tue 09-Oct-12 15:43:28

if I am with him he is fine - this is only when he goes out without me

so, yes, you're his mother. And if mummy isn't around, he plays up. oh <yawn>

don't show him this thread. are you mad?

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 16:07:03

Basically springy yes. He can't / won't do anything without instruction. / prompting. But that's what 20 years in te army does to you.

madda Tue 09-Oct-12 16:12:30

your poor DCs

I dont have anything more to say, this thread is upsetting me

I wish you well whatever you choose OP

madda Tue 09-Oct-12 16:13:08

nd never show him this thread, are you mad? He would not hold back...

How are you doing OP? Sorry for spewing my stuff all over your thread.

Please don't show him this thread. He already knows how you feel.

springyhope Tue 09-Oct-12 16:26:46

But that's what 20 years in te army does to you

oh dear lord, how many more excuses? This guy is disabled, willingly so by the sound of it. Look, plenty of us have had horrific childhoods and don't go on to live the way he's living. I'm not being heartless here, it's shit, but you do something about it , you do't find somebody else to 'do something about it' , you do it yourself.

Have you heard of codependency? You're sounding a candidate my dear, if you willingly take on this [restrains self] ...person who is clearly a massive liability to 'save' him. Put me right here, but is it that
. he doesn't do any work
. has run up hideous debts
. you provide all the money and stability in the home (MN have a name for him - cocklodger)
. can't be relied on to not get into fights when he's drunk
. regularly throttles you and may one day kill you

erm so you're with him because? on that's right, you're with him because you can't abandon his damaged inner child <give me a break>

Revengefantasiesrus Tue 09-Oct-12 16:36:38

He works part time. And full time in the house.

BerylStreep Tue 09-Oct-12 16:53:14

Sorry, I know these threads are supposed to be supportive, but I really can't stomach reading any more delusional nonsense.

Hiding thread.

izzyizin Tue 09-Oct-12 16:54:25

With no disrespect to the UK's brave troops, men like your h are two a penny in the army. There's one in every unit. Minimal education, few or no qualifications, and no desire to learn how to conduct themselves in a responsible manner.

Due to the numerous and varied opportunities for training and travel that are made available to them, many young men from disadvantaged backgrounds flourish in the services and go on to have successful careers in civvy street, but men like your h are usually to be found down on their luck and reliving past imaginary glories having alienated many of their former comrades because they are, effectively, loose cannons.

Your h struck paydirt when he met you. You've supported him in a style he couldn't have begun to create for himself and you've put up with his violence due to what, exactly? Your belief that his violence hides a sensitive soul?

He was brutalised as a child and he's become a brute. 20 years in the army has only served to reinforce his belief that violence is acceptable on and off the battlefield.

I feel somewhat disappointed. I'd hoped that a woman as obviously intelligent and as ambitious as yourself would have hitched herself to a man who, albeit damaged by childhood experiences, possessed the will and the desire to enrich your life in a not dissimilar way to the manner in which you've enriched his.

Instead you've lumbered youself with an uneducated oaf and your attempt to make a silk purse out of his pig's ear is doomed to failure because, no matter how much dosh you pour into talking therapies, he has no desire whatsoever to change... and why should he when you're letting him get away with what is likely to become gbh or murder if you don't get him out of your life sooner rather than later.

The $64,000 question is why did you marry him? I have no doubt you can frig some reason why his visa is no longer valid and, regretfully, send him back home 'temporarily' until you/your firm can sort it and, once he's high in the sky, I suggest you bend the ear of the counsellor you mentioned to find out the answer to this question.

springyhope Tue 09-Oct-12 16:59:55

My disaster of an ex went on to marry Ms Posh Totty - big cheese in the banking world (her, that is) - and she also was a meek little thing around him, putting up with allsorts. It was kind of sticky in a way.

ErikNorseman Tue 09-Oct-12 17:25:29

Your children are babies now but I'm sure you can work out that they will get older. They will hear, understand and remember and this will start to happen soon
You owe it to your children, let alone yourself.

Jux Tue 09-Oct-12 18:06:35

You need to be who you are, not who everyone else 'needs' you to be. This is especially true of your children.

They will have sensed a change in you over the last couple of days, while you recover your plastic smile and go through the fear, anger and other emotions, whether you think they've noticed or not. They have, I absolutely promise you, they have.

It's not too late for them, though. There is still time for this uncertainty and fear in their lives to be counteracted.

I hope this business deal goes how you want it, today. If he can be financially independent, will that help you? Once he has a visa, how will that help?

I hope once the meeting's over, you will be able to reassess your position.

plugplant Tue 09-Oct-12 18:35:11

Have just read the entire thread.

If you had gone to a Dog Rescue home and had fallen in love with and felt sorry for a pit bull who was loving and fun but a bit damaged and unpredictable, would you bring it home and leave it with your baby and toddler?

Then the pit bull turned on you occasionally, not enough to break the skin, but be menacing enough to leave you stressed. Would you still want to rehabilitate it with a baby and toddler around?

I can see you are torn because you want to rehabilitate this husband of yours, but this is one hell of a project in itself. As you say he is damaged goods, gets into fights when you are not around, has debts, abusive childhood.

Fine, take on this project if you want to.

But you cannot take on this monumental project without professional help and advice. You cannot do this AND bring up tiny children in the same environment.

Bringing up 2 little girls is ANOTHER monumental and life long project in itself. Everything they learn will be from you. How they relate to men, what their daddy is like, how daddy treats mummy. All these things they will learn from observation even before they can speak.

Tiny children need to be safe. They need you to be safe. They need you to devote your energy into bringing them up in a cosy, warm, happy environment.

You are living a lie if you think it could possibly work trying to do these two monumental projects at the same time.

Stop the lies to yourself.

Think about which project is the most important to you.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 09-Oct-12 22:45:04

It takes a certain kind of highly-developed arrogance to think you can save a damaged individual such as this man.

That only you can do it.

That you are prepared to sacrifice your children's safe and happy childhood to do sp. Nothing must stand in your way, must it ?

Not even the small matter of the risk of being strangled to death by him will stop you, nor the fact that there is every chance he will move on to abusing your children when you are not around to police and control his behaviour.

You are not his therapist, OP. Yoiu are not his saviour. You have no special power to change him. You are simply his punchbag, and there is no honour in that.

Harsh ? You better believe it.

But not harsher than him. He is destroying you, you are letting him and we are just yapping voices on the internet.

HissyByName Tue 09-Oct-12 22:56:54

Darling, he'll kill you, he's not worth it.

The best revenge is YOU getting out, free and thriving, watching your DC thriving.

You wann plan something big? Plan to LIVE!

OneMoreGo Tue 09-Oct-12 22:59:11

Why do you hate yourself so much that you put up with this?

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 09-Oct-12 23:10:59

I really, really hope all these kind and concerned people have not been used in some sick sort of power play with OP and her husband. I find it highly questionable that after all OP has said, that she would even consider showing this thread to him, where he is rightly called out for his disgusting actions.

Why would you do that ?

ThingsThatGoBumpInTheNight Tue 09-Oct-12 23:33:45

over 75% of people who grow up with abuse DO NOT abuse their families when they are adults.

No research that I am aware of has ever found any difference between those that do abuse and those that don't except in their attitude and empathy to others..which appears to be (at least in part) a choice.

Foolonthehill (sorry for the hijack OP) can you direct me to where you found this info, please, i would be extremely grateful x

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 23:34:40

because............. there's a need to get the x or the 'd'h to understand and believe that it's wrong. To see things from other people's point of view. To be aware that other people view this behaviour as wrong. AND IF THAT's somethng you can't convince them of, then I can understand the temptation.

BUT, don't do it. Use the knowledge to give you the power as somebody else said.

JennaMoroney Tue 09-Oct-12 23:35:58

i'd say the 'obligation' to save a character like this is a burden, a duty. It's not an arrogance. I didn't feel arrogant. I felt trapped with that burden.

ThereGoesTheYear Wed 10-Oct-12 07:29:12

My DM is a smart strong woman. She put up with my father's abuse to keep the family together, and was smart enough to 'manage' the abuse so that no one ever knew about it. I had no idea, until I was an adult, what my father was doing to her when we were out of earshot. Then my sister and I grew up and married men just like my father: charming, bright, funny, successful, and abusive. And it took us years of abuse to realise that other people had better marriages, and that some men didn't control and hurt their wives.

Do you want this for your girls?

Jux Wed 10-Oct-12 08:35:43

Revenge, how did the meeting go? Are you all right?

wheremommagone Wed 10-Oct-12 08:39:02

Op, I think you have had some brilliant advice on this thread. Regarding your thoughts on your dcs, I just wanted to write to offer my experience and thoughts on what it was like growing up with domestic violence. My df was regularly physically abusing my dm. There was also lots of verbal abuse too from both sides which neither of them tried to hide from me.

Whenever the conversation topic of childhood comes up, it always takes me back to my first memory. My df throwing his hot plate of lunch (beans on toast) over DM. He did it like you would throw a pie in one of those competitions. It went all over her chest. It was summer and she was wearing a bikini. I remember it like it happened yesterday even though I was only 3.

I have so many more memories such as being in the car with my dad and him trying to run my mum over telling me he was going to kill her. I can't tell you what a relief it felt once my dm did finally leave my df (who I continued to see for some time after as he never physically harmed me, but I now think he pursued the relationship to keep some power over my dm). You say that you are staying with your dh for the sake of your dcs happiness and that they don't realise it happens. I have 2 points to make on this, first, I don't think you will realistically be able to hide this from them altogether. Secondly, if I learnt as an adult that my mum had chosen to stay in a violent relationship for my sake I would be devastated. You deserve more than what your dh is giving, even if he is a good dh/df most of the time. think about what you want your dc to have as their first memory of their childhood. No one in rl knows this about me, not even my mum. I have made up something else as my first memory to protect my mum's feelings.

Good luck op. x

Redline Wed 10-Oct-12 08:48:50

Hi Revengefantasiesru/OP; Well? I said I'd write back & here I am; But? I doubt you'll see me as kind this time as I'm going to say just What I think this time & you definitely probably won't agree with me but? I'm going to do it differently from the others here being a bloke & take you partly through what Might happen from a bloke's point of view & before I say anything else? What follows (& I'm writing this as I go so even I don't know how it Will read yet)? Is not me being melodramatic; Just realistic & saying what could probably happen & how he very likely Will react in the end from a point of view of his sex & thus prob' better able to Read what he'll do & Why he'll do it than most on here. Anyway? Apologies in advance for the length of the following novel (or so it seemed writing it) [embarrassed]

BTW? I read this & felt So strongly for you being trapped in the way that you are & was So worried for you? That I felt I just Have to respond this strongly & try to help you; I don't really want to get involved in other people's private lives but? What you're going through & the way you're trapping yourself in your mind? Means I Have to since maybe you'll listen then & doing what I've done here? Might be the only real way to break the mental barriers that are preventing you acting as you should be now? I don't know;

Basically? What I Do know is that Other than the throttling? I prob' have a very good idea of where you're coming from even being a man; And just for the record? I used to get all sorts including knives, bottles & glasses launched at me & have my head smashed against a wall & be punched in the face repeatedly in a place where my Evil B*tch ex-fiancee was told I could Die if she carried on like that due to damage from an old op'? Needless to say she took advantage of the fact I would not hit back & even when I Did after one to many of those assaults? She didn't change - got worse if anything. Due to that living nightmare hard experience? I couldn't stand by & ignore you without fulfilling my promise to write back so here I am & All of this? Is from my heart so I really hope you read & take note as I don't often write posts on here & esp' not re' other people's private affairs - more to the point? I hope you take note & Act on what I'll say but again? that's up to you Miss;

Anyway, I've read the entire thread & Unlike most on here? I don't think you're on some sort of arrogant 'mission' to save him or that you're feeling an 'obligation' to change him; I've seen a few things in other threads that would explain your position which is down to his behaviour (as those other threads said? angry, childish & deliberately unpredictable) & further the quite obvious fact you Feel trapped by love for him & Not wanting to break up your DC's family? Which in turn? No doubt will probably make the demolition job I'm about to do on him all the harder to swallow but please Do read to the end OP I'm begging you.

Anyway? I know that poison chalice devil's brew of feelings you're having & suffering from Miss; You know? Love of your DC & DH (DP in my case) & thinking "OK if they Don't do it after this attack? We'll be alright & can get better again competing against anger at your DP/DH for daring to hurt you like they do & the one you haven't mentioned (but which this whole thread Screams out)? That being anger at yourself for letting it get like this & Not being strong enough to break the mental barriers or circle of feelings & just End it immediately to spare your DC further danger & yourself further heartache/worry & injury; Yes I've stood in your shoes Miss & I know just How hard it is & what you're going through even though it was 2 years ago now nearly.

I had all that to & agonised for two years on & off while she battered, screamed, threw things (knives, bottles, glasses you name it) & hurled accusations at me & in the end? When my son started crying whenever we argued (& Don't think yours won't or don't notice it - They Will Miss; however much you think they won't - they will)? I knew it was the end for us & when she came back after a period apart to try & reconcile for the 3rd time? I quite deliberately broke her heart, made her Hate me & started a (now) 2 year legal war over our DS (I don't recommend you doing that though I think you should get out now? I only did that as I'm a bloke & was prob' easier for me to break from her that way); I had to do this in the end btw? She wouldn't have gone otherwise & I was thinking of my son since however much he didn't like his parents being apart?

Well suffice to say Having him living in That warzone treading on eggshells so as not to upset mummy or see her & daddy arguing or her trying to hurt & goad daddy etc? Well he Couldn't live like that at 2 (at any age) could he? Your's can't either; It Will affect them even now when you think it won't & I suspect sooner or later? A "lightbulb" moment will occur when it will only take your DC getting to 2 or 3 & asking "did you enjoy daddy's neck game?/why did daddy clap his hands on your throat?Why were you screaming at night like you had nightmares mummy?" to utterly Break you, cleave your heart in two & Make you realise their safety is paramount Miss; For me BTW? That moment came when my (then) 2 year old saying "mummy, daddy 'ight, 'rout" I'm sure you can guess the words he was trying to say? Anyway that shattered me & I knew then it had to end & made damn bloody sure it did at the first opportunity.

In case you were wondering about considering your DH? BTW? Don't in short. The first time he did this horrible thing to you? He Forfeited the right to consideration by a Lady with whom he has children; A woman whose carried His babies beneath her heart for 9 months & born them with all the pain & difficulty & emotion that entailed & whose now trying to bring those children up with him; Once was More than enough OP; Never mind the times he's repeated it since & however much you might protest he's infrequent? I'll tell you something now OP? He Is getting worse - there's already signs in case you missed them?

He should never have Done it to you at all; Believe me when I say Once was to much - the fact you were so upset after him Not doing it for so long & then doing it again recently? Shows you Know that deep down. You thought you were OK & maybe drowsed a little in security terms & that he'd finally grown up? And then? He attacked you.........again; It's not on & he shouldn't Ever have done it. The fact he did it when Not drunk recently is important & tells you something else to - and speaking as a man I Know this? It's Not uncontrollable & He Does have control over & know how to stop it - he just chooses not to.;

Further speaking as a man? I know How he sees you when angry & thus is likely to react? Let me explain - while most normal men still possess a degree of control on where/who they Focus that anger on & won't go for women or Children? There's always a few who will & I suspect you'll dread but Know that I'm going to say next? He's one of those (comparatively) few; He's selfish & angry due to his upbringing & thinks he's owed attention from you & others & that whatever else happens? He should never have to take responsibility for his own actions (hence his outbursts when you look like making him do just that). You say he's OK in other respects of your life & for long periods between assaults? But that doesn't matter - the damage done to you & being done to you every Minute you stay there longer? By his selfishness in respect of His feelings & his anger at you for pointing his responsibilities out/making him See he's Not that little boy we'll all take pity on anymore? Far outweighs Any single positive of your horrible situation & I say horrible?

As I know you're being destroyed from the inside out Miss by such a toxic mixture of feelings; I know Just how you feel honey as I've had it to; It's a horrid mixture of love of who he Was before he attacked you & love of your DC's & Not wanting them to lose their 'family' as weighed against anger not just at him for what he's doing to you & How angry he's making you feel but also? The other thing I got from your OP which you took great pains Not to mention? Anger at yourself; You're angry at yourself for Not deciding or being able to decide aren't you revengefantasies? Don't be - He's decided for you long since & the decision is? You have not just you but DC to worry about; As long as their safety wasn't at risk? He wasn't fine but you Could have worked through his problems together & seen where you ended up; But now? Now you have DC & he's attacked you more than once however infrequently? You should be long gone My Dear.

FWIW? I wouldn't give him any economic advantages whilst living in a country with laws designed to oppress women & girls either? Even if you hold all the advantages & he's successful in becoming economically independent? It means now he'll be able to tie his debts to you & maybe come after you for them when you move abroad (as I suspect in the end you will) & in short? It's another (nasty) way for abusers to hook their victims even after they're long gone in a country Full of them; So in short? Think long & hard about what you do out there before you hand him any chance of power (via mumsnet or economically) OP.

Anyway re' your H? Now comes the disturbing bit; I'll speak of him as I understand men & our anger? Anyway if you ask me? The thing that makes his anger so dangerous? Is that like most men when roused? He gets angry like a child focusing on & wanting to Hurt & get a clear surrender or sign of damage from what/who's upset him? (Lashing out basically) The fact he's taking that anger & using it all on you & did so until you used to cry, sob & beg for him to stop? Shows further that he's been focusing that anger exclusively on you & he knows he's been doing it (look at the fact he did it without drinking & waited so long between attacks if you want proof as to his cold-bloodedness in that) & so never had to?

But the thing that bothers me the most speaking as a man? Is that such anger is normally the beginning of an escalating scale; And don't think he won't do this as he will; It's a well known fact that often those who commit DV will move up a level & attack with levels of ferocity & viciousness totally unseen or suspected by their victims as they get bolder with what they can get away with; Don't think you're safe from him in that Miss; He's only biding his time; Anyway? You say you Won't cry or beg or sob anymore now & thus last time he went up to holding a knife to you to get Terror in your eyes? Well I'm sorry but in the end? You probably will do this again; Why? Because the way he's going up the gears gradually in his nastiness? Tells me it's only a matter of time before his next attack when he'll no doubt escalate again.

Then? He will punch you to get terror in your eyes if not make you scream again or maybe he'll choke you that bit longer & destroy your voice box all to make you see it his way & cry/yield/sob/seem like you're surrendering to his entitled anger desire to punish you for making him see the truth & as a man? I'll tell you now - the more you don't give in? The more he'll be utterly implacable & determined to force you to do so meaning if he Can't affect you in the end? Then it will only be a matter of time before he turns on any pets you've got or (God Forbid) your DC in order to hear the magic phrase from you (preferably with tears & sobbing/the more upset the better) "please, please don't do that - I'll do anything, just don't hurt them/it"; Sorry to sound like an angry, harsh entitled typical man on here of all places but in short revengefantasiesrus?

I think you Need a shock like this to see what you Shall face in the end Miss? And don't kid yourself you won't - sooner or later, maybe not for weeks, months or even years? But sooner or later? It Will get to that point; It always does with men like that & That is why I'm talking like this Miss; I'm a man - I Know how we think, how our anger works & how it Will work if turned on a woman; As my ex' shows? Women can be like this to but in the main? It's men & with him? It's a classic case; The next step is clear as day to; I can see it a mile off & sorry to hurt you so by advocating the destruction of the little family & life you hold dear but? It's all an illusion dependent on him not exploding, you & the DC walking on eggshells & you can't build a relationship on shifting sands like that, you just can't. So if you want my opinion? The sooner you get out or make Plans to get out? The better; I suggest you take the first step soon as once you've made your mind up? Whilst everything will be easier? There'll be no going back................

I hope that helps; It's my thoughts FWIW. I hope you can see now what you're Really going to be facing eventually & re' what HappyHalloween said? I'll say now What your husband is IMO though I've avoided it until now? He's an evil angry, entitled, nasty coward; Plain & simple; If he wants to read the thread & my posts? He can See himself in a mirror & to hell with his feelings. In short & very much like the child he still thinks he is? He doesn't Want to face his past; Wants to go on running from it through his life dragging the family he's acquired on the course of that run With him whatever the cost & running up debts, doing damage in the army & now out of it to all & sundry his family & loved ones; OP won't Let him though by her very nature & the fact she Needs an adult to help her bring up their DC? She Tries to bring him back to life & Make him face his responsibilities every so often as she Has to since kids (which he is emotionally if horribly overgrown now) can't parent kids & thus? She can't do it all on her own;

Anyway? By all accounts? He resents any mention of his past never mind making him confront & deal with it & flies into a fury at such so if OP keeps making him deal with it as she has to as their own DC grow up & you combine that with his jealousy at His DC getting the upbringing he didn't? Well it's not hard to see the results & I'm sorry OP but If you stay love? Those results Will kill or permanently damage you in the end. He really Needs help but not with you; Not with a family; Someone like that Can't function with an acquiescing partner & family around them as it makes them look normal & avoid their responsibilities & thus they never face up to things & never move on.

He'll only get worse & don't try & play him at his own game - you're not physically strong enough & believe me (from bitter & painful experience?) He'll only respond in kind & get worse all the quicker & you? Might not survive such damage as he does like that & if you Did somehow really hurt him? Well in the area you're in I suspect it would be & is a simple job for a male dominated court to fit the facts up so it's all the woman's fault & God only knows what horrors you'd then have to endure in one of those jails as a Western woman on a long term sentence (as you would be if convicted); So anyway? Have a care for yourself & your DC Miss; Don't risk anything like that & go now while you Can & hold the (relative) upper hand? He'll rebuild his life even from nothing; Such people always do.

I'll just ask you one last thing that might help you decide? How do you think he'd react? For all his sorrow at himself (the last time) if he Did kill or permanently injure you? The fact he's Tried a couple of times? Obviously says he'd not be That bothered really else he'd Never have done it again (or even once) would he? The fact you're upset over him & His life & how you Might wreck it so much? Shows You're far more invested in him than he is you I think? He's using you as a comfort blanket to avoid his past Miss hence his fury when you Don't fulfill that role. I suspect were you to die or be heavily injured? He'd prob' move on if not easily then soon enough but you? You'd prob' sit there in jail on a 20 year sentence after being fitted up for even Thinking of hurting him never mind doing him serious harm or (God Forbid) killing him thinking all the time it's your fault & in truth? It Never Was Revenge' Miss - It's His Fault & his alone; It's Been his fault that you're in this horrible mess hating him & yourself & wanting to hurt him when you Should be enjoying bringing your girls up together? Ever Since he first attacked you.

He's not worth your tears Miss or if he Is? Give him the pity he deserves on the phone from thousands of feet up while you're safely away with your DD's on the flight back to the UK & the safety of rebuilding your lives & getting all that love, attention & good times (without the threats from him) that you & they all deserve. It's the least you deserve OP; In short? I think you should decide from now on to be happy & I think you know don't you Miss that happiness? Does not lie with him any longer & in truth hasn't done? For a while...............

NB If it helps you depart him with a degree of civility enough to satisfy You (not him - he doesn't deserve consideration for his attacks on you) that you've done All you can to save your lost cause marriage? Then suggest to him politely (preferably in public where he Can't get annoyed to easily at you) that he stop drinking And take up counselling for his problems & try to sort out his financial issues; His answers to that will tell you a lot but even so & even if he busies himself trying to do that? I suggest you (discretely) let your parents know Just What is going on (it's gone waaaay beyond keeping it secret from them now) & then begin the process that will detach yourself from him & start planning to go; Don't let him know (as I didn't with my ex') until he Can't touch you mind; He might be civil enough now but like I said? Those sort of people Always turn eventually & never more so than when they sense their power/quarry slipping away. Which is also why I would not Ever show him this thread if I were you as the first thing he'll think when he sees it is? "She's going to escape" & that? Will provoke him like nothing else. Please don't risk that OP; You're an erudite, intelligent, beautiful, viviciaous & enchanting woman, I can tell that & I've never met you (& prob' never will); Now? You have you & your beautiful DC's to think of & showing him this thread? Well let's just say I think doing that? Would be a red rag to a bull & again? I speak from experience...........

Anyway that's what I think Revengefantasiesrus? Sorry if you might think I was overly descriptive &/or dramatic but? I'm not coming from the same direction as most posters being a man? And I can tell you (being a bloke myself) a Mile off how this man of yours Will act in the end (there's no maybe or he'll sort it out about it); I think you should act now to get you & your DC the life you All deserve as right now? However much you might deny it or cite the infrequency of what he does? You're all walking on eggshells & subject to his temper; Your marriage is built on sand due to that & that? Is No way to be never mind to base a marriage on;

You deserve far better Miss & a partner who loves You rather than your body most of the time & seeing what terror he can bring to your eyes or how many screams, sobs & cries of misery & instances of forcing you into miserably begging him to stop in between the silent tears that he can elicit from your tortured lips the rest of it; Basically when you take that side of him & how toxic, angry, miserable & trapped you’re feeling because of it? It’s plain to see he’s destroying you inside & out honey; You've got your DC to think of as well as yourself & now? I say this with care & affection but? I think you Know It’s time you ended all that & take Back the safety you & your DD's are entitled to as of right; In short? Everyone else is speaking from the "other side of the fence" in here as it were? I think it's Long past time you joined us Miss. All the best in making that jump...........

Take Care;

Anyway OP? I hope that magnum opus little novel of mine gives you the jolt you need Miss; Just remember to? That whatever happens? We're all here for you My Lady

Keep Well

Redline

xx

Revengefantasiesrus Wed 10-Oct-12 09:04:46

Meeting seemed to go pretty well. If it works out my DH will have someone to mange his diary of appointment and all the back office invoicing and preparation of quotes then he could focus just on doing the actual work. They would also manage advertsing his services and promotional activities. In return he would enter into a profit sharing arrangement with the company sponsoring him. He would remain on my visa (and thus I retain control over the legality of his being resident here) but his labour card and insurance coverage would be provided by the company. It sounds like an ideal arrangement.

He hasn't been able to work full time in 3 years due to employment restrictions where we are which has been somethin he has really really struggled with so this would be a huge boost to his self esteem and a big weight of stress off our shoulders. Especially financially. It would also place us very well for the future if we wanted to set up our own business.

H is a very hard worker but quite bad at organizing himself and managing paperwork and accounts as he never had any experience in that area. I tried to help but had my own ft work to manage too.

His abusive outbursts are always linked to him feeling criticized and persecuted because he has such poor self esteem and spent all his childhood being told he was worthless useless and would never amount to anything and everyone hated him as he was just a burden. The past three years have been hard for him being totally reliant on me financially (a position he hasn't been in since he started work at 16 years old). He never complained about it just constantly apologized for being "a worthless burden" and tried to make up for it by being the perfect "househusband" but the strain always showed and was a constant undercurrent of anxiety and stress. i suspect this job if it happens will help him hugely with his feelings of inadequacy.

He has also made 2 appointments with his therapist again as my company recently changed our health insurance coverage and it seems a certain number of sessions are now partially covered so we might be able to manage the cost.

I really really hope this job works out. Am just praying it does. Him having a regular job and income would be such a massive relief.

We haven't discussed the most recent incident last weekend. In fact I have made only small talk or discussed practical logistics with him ever since. I feel like he is my room mate now. No closeness is there at all. And I don't really want it. I want him to get on with sorting his life out and getting a proper job and contributing practically to the household. I want to get on with my job and spend all the rest of my time with the babies. I dread evenings now when I have to sit with him and watch tv. I just stay silent and go on mumsnet. I think I might start going to the gym after dinner.

springyhope Wed 10-Oct-12 09:19:26

Redline, sorry you had such a bad time. ((hug))

OP, business as (almost) usual eh. confused

Revengefantasiesrus Wed 10-Oct-12 09:22:19

Thanks for that very long post redline I appreciate you taking the time to type it all out. And to others for your recent replies.

Revengefantasiesrus Wed 10-Oct-12 09:23:19

Yeah springy business as usual. Did you even read my lady paragraph. Can you just fuck off of my thread please ?

Revengefantasiesrus Wed 10-Oct-12 09:26:12

LAST paragraph obviously.

springyhope Wed 10-Oct-12 09:31:47

Who's going to be looking after the girls while you're at the gym?

YOur wish is granted. I hope it isn't too long before you fully wake up to what you (and your girls) are really facing.

Revengefantasiesrus Wed 10-Oct-12 09:39:29

Our live in nanny will also be present along with my husband springy while the children are SLEEPING from 7pm as she is 5 and a half days a week. Not that I would hesitate to leave the kids with my husband alone for a second. He has never so much as shouted at our children let alone laid a finger on them. Take your patronizing smart arse comments somewhere else and let me take on board the posts from well meaning thoughtful posters instead if wasting my energy getting phase off with your deliberately provoking bitchiness. I have enough to deal with thanks

Redline Wed 10-Oct-12 10:14:07

You're welcome Revengefanasiesrus re' the post (t'was meant for you anyway); Did you read it all? If not, I hope if you have a spare hour or three some spare time? You read it through? I wasn't being dramatic or overly descriptive etc on it & I really Don't like writing big posts normally so 'tis something of a departure for me? But I felt Do strongly on this? I just Had to write something in the end; Anyway I thought it might help to see it from a man's (& fellow sufferers) view to maybe show you a couple of points you hadn't considered or couldn't see before? As well as maybe helping you realise Why you feel like you do & what to maybe Do about it?

Anyway? I hope it helps you sort out whatever you want/need to do for you & DD & all the best. Miss; Me & everyone else here is there for you when if you should need us & we all hope you feel better soon Miss; As to the post? I hope you think on what I said................

NB Springy? Thanks for hug; I really could of done with (& maybe needed after dredging all That up again in my mind) a hug Miss so appreciated that from you; <hugs springy back tight>

JennaMoroney Wed 10-Oct-12 10:23:38

Please don't go into business with him revenge. There'll be even more 'various reasons' to stay with him then. You can't want that can you? you can't want your life to be even more tied up with his can you? NO, i don't believe that you could want that when you have posted this thread.

Redline, longest post I've ever seen from a man. A subject as close to your heart as to all the others who are on the other side now.... and to the poster whose first memory is her dad throwing a hot plate of food at her mother's almost bare top half; that is awful. What a first memory. :-(

JennaMoroney Wed 10-Oct-12 10:26:36

I read it redline. But it's more comfortable reading for those who have left than for those who have NOT. I agree wth what you say to the op , except that I sense that it is a misguided sense of duty that often keeps these relationships toghter for so long. By mentioning his childhood etc, op makes it clear that their relationship makes allowances for hs childhood. It's not arrogance. It's a burden, such a burden, to feel that duty and obligation to try and restore somebody else's view of humanity/women. YOu can never do it though, not if their thinking is SO distorted.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 10-Oct-12 10:27:05

Red, what a lovely Person you sound.

Revengefantasiesrus Wed 10-Oct-12 10:31:00

Oh I'm not. It's a sole trader arrangement between him and this company.

I just want signing authority on the corporate bank account where his profit share will be paid.

The part of this which makes me feel better is if this happens he is not my responsibility financially any more. If I ended the marriage he would still have a career, income and ability to stay close to the children outside of me facilitating and funding it. I wouldn't feel like I was stripping his whole life away by leaving him. It would make me better able to really make a clear decision without all this guilt of being completely duty bound to him for everything.

JennaMoroney Wed 10-Oct-12 10:31:06

@ redline, yeh, I know you're not looking for a medal for sharing, but it can dredge it all up again. You share what happened to you, I mean 'one shares' and hopes that it's not for nothing. @ revenge please do sit down and read that long post properly. Don't just let your eyes race over it. Give it the 15 minutes it will take to read and absorb. X And from me, I'm just gonna repeat myself! and say please please don't go into business with him'. HAVE the people on this thread any right to ask that? maybe not. But I am going to ask you not to go into business wth this man.

JennaMoroney Wed 10-Oct-12 10:31:50

oh phew. x posts. sorry.

I misunderstood.

JennaMoroney Wed 10-Oct-12 10:32:58

ps, the guilt goes. I no longer feel a gram of guilt for my x's emotional well-being/state of miind/view of the world. That is OFF my shoulders now! It takes a few years to get to that point. But the sooner you start the sooner you're free.

Revengefantasiesrus Wed 10-Oct-12 10:39:29

I guess I also feel guilty far taking him away from his home ad his job and then if the marriage ended leaving him with nothing. If he had started on a career path with good prospects I would know I'd given him the chance to make something really good of his life which he wouldn't have had if he hasn't met me. So I would have given him something worthwhile. If he cocks it up that would be his problem. But at least I facilitated the opportunity by financing his retraining, introducing him to the right people and setting him up with the necessary equipment and business templates. I did something good for him. Even if I can't stay with him like I promised.

JennaMoroney Wed 10-Oct-12 10:51:29

He's no different from a million other people whose relationships have broken down after kids. I KNOW that no matter what I say to you, you will feel that guilt crushing you.

My x felt no guilt that I made every single sacrifice for parentng. Funny that.

I know it's obvious but it's worth reminding yourself that you're allowed to change your mind. Sometimes it better not to justify too much why you've changed your mind cos then the whole conversation is like a f***ng court case where a defence barrister is ripping you to shreds! BOTTOM LINE is you have a right to end a relationship, even a marriage! if it is not working for you. It's not working for you. You're not happy. It's your prerogative to end it.

On the one hand you feel guilty about taking him away from England, and also, if you refuse his visa, sending him back to england!! So two things which are opposite outcomes, and they can't both happen, you feel guilty about both of them.

You financed his retraining. He also had the right to leave you if he chose to. He could have. He didn't. He is not totally passive. He has made choices along the way too. Chose to go to where you are now, chose to be aggressive and abusive, and if you separate, he will choose his own path. I'm guessing he is about your age, only 36? that is young in business I think.

Revengefantasiesrus Wed 10-Oct-12 11:01:27

He is 39 next birthday. Middling age really. But this is a second career for him. He could really make a good go of it I think. He is very intelligent and great with people. Just needs a kick up the arse encouragement to get things done and chase business down. But if I wasn't there to do that I'm sure he would motivate himself better. And this deal would mean he has a boss to answer to which would help.

I dunno. I don't know what to do. I am so so tired.

I feel numb.

I just do t know if I have it in me to try all over again supporting his therapy and hoping he will change and trying to make myself believe his promises of "never ever again" which never last. I feel like something died in me last weekend and I don't know now if I could bring it back to life even if I wanted to. I don't hate him or feel anger any more. I just feel sad and numb and empty. I feel nothing when I look at him. Nothing at all.

Oh my love, I feel for you, I really do. So far from home and dealing with this alone. It's heartbreaking.

Please take care of yourself. He may up the ante if he senses your withdrawal from him. Once again, never show him this thread, it will not go down well and all that matters right now is that you are safe to process your thoughts.

Revengefantasiesrus Wed 10-Oct-12 11:19:58

Thanks Katie I appreciate it. Just got to keep plodding on and try to move in the right direction I suppose.

JennaMoroney Wed 10-Oct-12 11:29:32

I bet he would motivate himself somehow (without you I mean).

I used to think my x would fall apart and become a bitter old alkie (outwardly). I thought he would lose his job, default on his mortgage, fall out wth everybody around him......... if he didn't have the coping mechanism he always had! screaming at me, pushing and shoving me! But somehow, life has carried on as normal for him.

It is tough away from home yeah. It's hard to visualise life in a different place. People resist change. Changng one thing is hard. If that one change means that there are going to be several other inevitable changes confused that 's reallly tough to pull the pin on the grenade.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 10-Oct-12 11:46:00

op, you talk about setting him up life like is some sort of under achieving teenager

He is a grown man. A man who chooses to abuse you. He made his choices, or did you hold a gun to his head?

You owe him nothing

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 10-Oct-12 11:46:28

Up IN life

AThingInYourLife Wed 10-Oct-12 12:15:29

"I did something good for him. Even if I can't stay with him like I promised."

That really is mawkish, sentimental bullshit.

You are getting something out of this drama that's keeping you there.

Despite the martyr talk.

A question that often gets asked on threads like these (always usefully, imo) is: what would your counsel your daughter to do, if she came to you and described this situation as her marriage? Would you tell her to stay, help the man who throttles her on occasion, of would your first instinct be to tell her to get her life and young children into a safer situation and work through her own feelings of rescue/responsibility from a safe place?

JennaMoroney Wed 10-Oct-12 12:48:01

Also, another CLASSIC question that really helped me was - if you could step into a parallel reality where you'd split up last year, so the worst of the upset and acrimony is behind you not ahead of you, would you do it? and for me, the answer was yes. Inside my own head, the answer deafened me!! So I knew, that was it. I had to do it, despite the 'battle' to get to the other side.

Inertia Wed 10-Oct-12 13:29:21

Perhaps while you are in the process of setting up contacts and visa arrangements, you could include a section that says if he threatens or carries out any act of violence against you or anybody else, you will revoke your sponsorship (sorry I don't know the correct name ) of his visa.

Just to consider protecting yourself- where would you stand legally if he commits an assault while he's on your visa? (Just thinking of further upthread, I think you hinted at him getting into fights while drunk). Could your visa be revoked for crimes he commits? Or can the company he goes into business with sue you for non-disclosure of a history of violence?

Jux Wed 10-Oct-12 14:02:03

are your parents still there?

Please tell your mum.

Jux Wed 10-Oct-12 14:02:48

Redline, well done for getting out. Mammoth step, and very, very hard to do.

izzyizin Wed 10-Oct-12 16:35:16

How long have you known your h and how long into your relationship did it take for his violence to manifest?

What do you know about his previous relationship history? Was he divorced, does he have other dc? Have you met any of his family members?

plugplant Thu 11-Oct-12 07:09:31

I have not been able to sleep through worry for you and your gorgeous little girls op.

You have been so strong coping with working f-t and trying to provide a loving home and trying to give a heinous (to us, wonderful, loving and caring to you) man a beautiful home, family, job and future.

I have a white fear of dread though that you have been nearly throttled to death and your coping mechanisms through these fantasies and feelings of numbness are starting to crumble.

You have managed to keep up appearances through these episodes. You live in the ME where women including employees are treated with DV as a matter of course.

You have a nanny 5 days a week. Have you confidentially asked her if she has experienced any secret violence from your husband?

Would she tell you if she saw him secretly trying to throttle one of your babies or even dish out punishment that he experienced in childhood?

You already know what he is capable of. You know he is devious and not always drunk when he acts with intimidation and violence.

She may not want to tell you through fear of losing her job. But all this has to be in the back of your mind doesn't it?

You cannot rule any of this out can you?

Please OP don't lie to yourself. We are here to support you and not judge you.

Revengefantasiesrus Thu 11-Oct-12 08:16:29

That really is mawkish, sentimental bullshit

Actually it isn't. It's being a decent human being. My husband gave up his career and moved half way across the world to support me in my career leaving himself with no easy way back into the workplace. If the genders were reversed and I was a bloke saying I wanted to kick out my stay at home wife who had no job and no way of supporting herself because she had been bringing up our kids and supporting my career I'd be rightly slated - no matter how awfully I had been treated. I simply would not do that to him - Or anyone.

If I decide that leaving is the right thing then I will be doing it with decency not vindictiveness and can at least make sure he isn't in a worse position than before we married given that he gave up on his own career (and he was on the signal for another promotion when he resigned) to support my aspirations.

I know his family and his old friends and have had chapter and verse on his previous failed relationships. He is not bigamously married or really a Great Train Robber on the run or anything. I'm under no illusions as to his weaknesses and the ugly parts of his life and character I can assure you. But a little like the nursery rhyme "when he is good he is very very good and when he is bad he is horrid".

Revengefantasiesrus Thu 11-Oct-12 08:19:57

I am absolutely 100% positive that my husband has never laid a finger on our nanny or our children. And I'm sure she would tell me if he ever did. She is mid fifties and very experienced with her own children and grandchildren not an insecure young girl. I can imagine him smacking the dog on the nose but absolutely never the children. In fact I slapped my 2 year old on the leg for kicking and he went nuts. Is absolutely passionate about no physical punishment for children (obviously wives don't count in that). Asshole. Am angry again today.

minmooch Thu 11-Oct-12 08:25:20

Stop treating him like a child and enabling him to treat you like this. He is a grown man and needs to act like one without you organising his life.

He knows what he is doing to you, he knows he had the ability to do this to his own kids and that you will find yet another excuse to let him get away with it.

He had the opportunity of living a normal, happy family life with you and the kids. He chose to put this at risk by abusing you. His choice. You owe him nothing. Nothing. He had the chance and he chooses to ruin it.

You owe your children love and safety. Do not teach them to accept this for their lives. You can already see your husband is doing to you what was done to him, nobody showed him it was not right.

I left my husband (and I 'only' suffered emotional and financial abuse) with my two children, one of whom has cancer of the brain, because I knew it was not right and I will not bring up my children believing that us right. I have very little money but i know it was the right thing to do my husband had the chance if a happy family life but blew it - his choice and ge faces the consequences.

Stop finding excuses for your husbands behaviour and your inability to protect your children - they deserve more. Stop kidding yourself he won't kill you or hurt your children - is it seriously worth the risk? How will your children feel with their mum dead (or mentally disabled when he stops oxygen to your brain)? How will you feel if he hurts one of your kids and sits them in an ice cold bath to stop the bruises coming out?

Nobody wants to bring their children up alone but it is preferable to a damaged marriage and a damaged life for you and the kids.

Revengefantasiesrus Thu 11-Oct-12 08:29:17

Also, another CLASSIC question that really helped me was - if you could step into a parallel reality where you'd split up last year, so the worst of the upset and acrimony is behind you not ahead of you, would you do it?

I have to say for me that is a no. It's not that I fear going through the process of splitting up. I've been through it before with a long term ex and I can do it again. I am quite practical and capable and as I said nothing much in my life would change except I'd be a thousand or so a month better off and my H wouldn't be there. It's not the practicalities which stop me. It's because I love my husband and I love being with him WHEN HE ISN'T ABUSING ME. If he never touched me again and I could be sure of that I'd happily stay with him for the rest of my life. Te problem is I can't be sure of that - in fact I KNOW it will happen again. It always does. Sooner or later. That's why it's so hard. If he was an asshole 10% of the time or even 5% it would be easier. But when it's 1% of the time but tht 1% is REALLY bad it's just hard.

I mean usually this kind of thing goes hand in hand with emotional abuse continued put downs, verbal abuse, escalating behavior. But I don't have any if that. Aside from when he lashes out like this he exhibits no abusive behavior at all towards me or the children. That's why I struggle with it so much.

minmooch Thu 11-Oct-12 08:35:19

Your husband is not just 'horrid' - he is a violent physical abuser and threatens your very life each time he has chosen to put his hands around your neck.

You can never be 100 per cent sure he won't hurt your children as I am certain when you married him you were 100 per cent sure he would not hurt you.

EternalHope Thu 11-Oct-12 08:37:59

I haven't read the whole thread so please forgive if I have missed something crucial. I have had cause to read a lot about abused women and discovered that often the final trigger for the woman to leave is NOT that she is fearful for her own safety (like you, many women normalise and discount the abuse) but is instead when she realises that she is going to kill or hurt her abusive partner if he continues. Presumably this starts with fantasies of revenge such as you have had. Get out before you do anything stupid which results in a very long prison term and heart break. Your situation sounds very dangerous no matter how much you protest that your DH is wonderful 95% of the time: by the way, attacking you even ONCE is once too many. You owe your DH precisely nothing in the light of that. Do not feel guilty about kicking him out.

Revengefantasiesrus Thu 11-Oct-12 08:47:46

You can never be 100 per cent sure he won't hurt your children as I am certain when you married him you were 100 per cent sure he would not hurt you.

Sadly not so. He had already been abusive when I married him. But had made huge progress with therapy and medication. When he is in therapy he has never been abusive towards me. Maybe because he would be scared to have to repeat it to his therapist. I believed he had changed. We went for a long time between episodes of abuse once. A long long time. But it happened again eventually. It always does.

Revengefantasiesrus Thu 11-Oct-12 08:51:33

He ran out of his meds and went cold turkey for 3 days before he could get another prescription. In that time he lost his temper because r was driving like a maniac and I dared to criticize him. So he screeched back home totally lost it and held a knife to my eye. I was 8 months pregnant.

Before that it had been nearly 2 years since he had done anything of the kind.

I accepted that as long as he keeps taking his antidepressants he won't hurt me. Unless he mixes them with enough booze of course. Then all bets are off.

I'm crying again now.

minmooch Thu 11-Oct-12 09:00:34

All bets are off now sweetie. You have done your best for this man, you can hold your head up high that you did your best. But he needs to sort himself out now - you cannot do it for him.

There is no reason on this world that can possibly excuse a man who holds a knife to the eye of his wife, pregnant or not.

Whether you love him or not is irrelevant - you have children who are dependent on you to keep them safe. They need their mum to be strong for them and that means keeping them away from their father until he himself has sorted out his issues. They need you alive, mentally strong and physically able - and these are things your husband is threatening.

We have all made mistakes (me - 2 bad marriages) but accepting our mistakes and sorting them out make us the better person. In your case sorting out means getting this man away from you and your kids.

I wish you strength to do this.

AThingInYourLife Thu 11-Oct-12 09:47:52

"If the genders were reversed and I was a bloke saying I wanted to kick out my stay at home wife who had no job and no way of supporting herself because she had been bringing up our kids and supporting my career I'd be rightly slated - no matter how awfully I had been treated."

Horshit!

You think people on MN would defend a woman who threatened her husband with knives and strangled him?!

You think a man would be told he was responsible for his abuser just because she was a SAHM?

The "reverse the genders" is always a weak argument, but that is laughable.

You are not leaving him for you, because you want things to stay this way.

It's not for him, or your children, or your parents, or because you're such a wonderful person hmm

Are you entirely blind to how self-indulgent you are about this?

It's quite plain that you enjoy this argument and telling so many people that you will stay because you are so wonderful you will continue to take the pain.

Revengefantasiesrus Thu 11-Oct-12 09:58:58

I don't recall ever saying I would stay. Or go. Or that I am wonderful. What I said was I will make my own decisions and won't be bullied by strangers on the Internet into immediately jumping into Leaving the Bastard or kicking him out with nothing regardless of how fucking rude you are to me.

Revengefantasiesrus Thu 11-Oct-12 10:01:34

And if I do decide to leave I won't be telling my parents or my children the reasons why. Because it would hurt them to know I was hurt. But sorry, that's me grandstanding my martyrdom isn't it.

i should be taking out an advert in the daily mail to publicist his assholishness and put my Feminist boots on to stomp all over him.

Revengefantasiesrus Thu 11-Oct-12 10:03:45

And if that was the case wouldn't I have told people in real life about how wonderful I am an how much pain I can take? You really are a bitch of the first water to come on here and start slagging me off aren't you? Hot nothing better to do with your time than kick people who are already down an vulnerable and trying to find some outlet for their emotions and pain? Shame on you.

minmooch Thu 11-Oct-12 10:44:59

People are frightened for you and your children. We are a step removed from your situation and are therefore able to look at it more clearly without your emotions.

I think people are just trying to shock you into realising how dire your situation is as you have normalised some of his behaviour and are taking it on yourself to sort him out.

I did not tell people in rl about my husbands abuse because I was ashamed - ashamed of his behaviour and ashamed I had got myself into this situation. my sons illness bought it into focus what was right and not right, that my shame (deserved or not) had no place in the relationship. For you and your kids the consequences of not sorting this are horrendous.
Fwiw the things I tell my family and friends now they are pleased and proud of me for getting out of the situation.

I have also found that in protecting my children by not telling them why I had left has left them confused. Telling them the reasons )age appropriate and not done to turn them against df) has made them appreciate me for my strength of character.

You are naturally defensive of your reasons to have stayed with your husband despite his abuse, you are trying to reconcile your beliefs against what everybody else is saying to you. It is very hard to make these steps but you have started by talking on here, started a process that hopefully will allow yourself to get out of this situation. You are right in that any separation does not have to be done with vindictiveness but neither do you have to save your husband before saving yourself and your children.

Revengefantasiesrus Thu 11-Oct-12 10:59:46

Some posters have expressed their concern for me and my children and I appreciate that. Some posters have taken this as an opportunity to basically character assassinate me and accuse me of actively enjoying the situation I find myself in being self indulgent, martyred and even supremely arrogant. Frankly I'd rather take my chances with my husband than put up with the abuse I've received from mumsnet thanks. I will go back to just keeping my mouth shut and dealing with it. The help and isn't worth the abuse which actually has made me feel worse than I did before I began this thread. I won't be back.

minmooch Thu 11-Oct-12 11:11:32

I am so sorry that you feel this way. We want to help you find a way out if this situation. All of us want you to believe in yourself and to know that you do not deserve this abuse. We want you to know that there are ways out of this situation.

If you feel it more helpful to have a private talk with any of us I am sure that we would do what we can to help you.

If you decide not to engage with any poster on here please keep reading other threads where you will see the same advice is given to any woman facing abuse.

strawberry17 Thu 11-Oct-12 11:50:42

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

JennaLemon Thu 11-Oct-12 12:41:58

If you're still reading OP, hope you're ok. I think posters can be unrealistic in their expectations of how quickly you can change your life. As I see it now your perspective is altered slightly. That' a massive big deal in my opinion. You say you love your husband 90% of the time. The next time he abuses you though, and you say yourself it WILL happen, you will be seeing things from a different perspective than you were before because the reason this thread has upset you is not because of the posts,but because the rationalisations you had constructed are probably faltering a bit.

Sorry that you feel worse after reading this thread, but at the risk of sounding really 'got that t-shirt' I think it's a phase in the process. Obviously you are not going to pack a bag or file for a divorce 72 hours after first putting it out there, in a thread, that you're not comfortable with x, y or z.

Lueji Thu 11-Oct-12 12:46:12

I accepted that as long as he keeps taking his antidepressants he won't hurt me. Unless he mixes them with enough booze of course. Then all bets are off.

Yes. And l left him, because he did mix them. And I wouldn't put up with it.

And he was a SAHD, due to his anxiety, and we had just moved countries.
He's now back and to his family.

The main priority is your safety, and of the children too.

You cannot possibly be 100% sure he won't ever hurt the children.

Nobody will slate you for dumping him. And the idiots who do, all you can ask is if they would put up with his aggressive behaviour. And ignore them.

Lueji Thu 11-Oct-12 12:49:41

And as minmooch, I did tell DS the reason for daddy not living with us anymore.

In simple terms and allowing him to love his dad anyway.

JennaLemon Thu 11-Oct-12 12:52:40

* @ strawberry* why on earth have you outed her like that? That was unnecessary. She's not trolling. She's venting. If you identified her as the same OP it's because the details add up. I think it's awful that you've linked to that thread. OP is not jumping through the hoop quickly enough for the viewers, sorry posters, so you will out her?? I am going to ask mn to remove that post. She is entitled to name change. She's entitled to look for perspective on different flaws in the relationship. The fact that she's done this twice in 3 months proves her head is not in the sand.

Give her a break.

AThingInYourLife Thu 11-Oct-12 13:04:25

I don't think strawberry was trying to "out" the OP, or intending to cast any aspersions by linking.

I read it that she was trying to help.

It might not even be the same person anyway, we have no way of knowing.

Probably a good idea to ask to remove the link. Either the OP doesn't want it made (which is up to her) or it's a different person's problem.

needsomeperspective Thu 11-Oct-12 13:50:48

Nope that's me. I've been PMing the OP.

izzyizin Thu 11-Oct-12 13:58:05

That seems to have been a quantum leap on your part, strawberry.

Apart from 2 small dc and a dh on medication for anxiety, I can't see a connection unless of course that OP deducted 2 years from her age.

Jux Thu 11-Oct-12 15:24:14

Have reported that post, Strawb. Better done by pm, next time, eh?

strawberry17 Thu 11-Oct-12 15:39:50

I am so sorry OP and the rest of you I truly wasn't engaging my brain.

strawberry17 Thu 11-Oct-12 15:53:46

Have apologised to OP in private, crap at the etiquette/rules on relationships boards and will stay away, no malice was intended.

Jux Thu 11-Oct-12 18:50:09

...and I meant to put a smile or wink on my post to you Strawb, in an effort to soften the blow grin

Back to op...

How are you? I am concerned that you have left the nest of vipers and will find yourself without support when you need it. A lot of people here are worried about you, and your children.

It is awfully hard to leave; even when abuse is persistent and continuous and the bad clearly outweighs the good.

Do you think he can be persuaded to get serious therapy for himself?
Do you think he realizes that he may very well lose you all if he doesn't commit to sorting out his issues?
Does he realise how likely he is to kill you - even if he doesn't actually mean to? How close he comes to doing so?
Do you think you might be able to talk to him about that - very non-confrontationally of course, and definitely in a public place. I don't know how good an idea that is though.

Whatever you decide we will be here in Relationships, ready to support you and help you through, when you need it.

tumbletumble Thu 11-Oct-12 21:42:18

OP, I have just read this thread and feel moved to post (I rarely post in Relationships - normally stick to the 'easy listening' nature of Chat). If you are still reading, I just wanted to let you know what an intelligent, thoughtful and compassionate woman you seem to be. I really hope things work out for you one way or another.

izzyizin Thu 11-Oct-12 21:53:09

What an intelligent, thoughtful, compassionate, and misguided woman you seem to be... a veritable testimony of hope over experience.

But it's beginning to turn sour because there's only so much hope you can generate and hold out when experience tells you that nothing's changed and you come to the realisation that, despite everything you've done, despite all the resources you've depleted in the struggle to make it come good, nothing is going to change.

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