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He's just been to a nude lap dancing bar :(

(366 Posts)
RunnyBum Sat 06-Oct-12 00:56:34

H just back from nude lap dancing bar, he has been on stag dos before and he knows I hate it. I'm gutted, he says I should forget this one "mistake" as he (allegedly) didn't has a private dance as he knows I would hate that. He claims he was just curious (inspite having been before and knowing all about it!!) Being in front of a naked woman that isnt me, for kicks just feels like cheating on some level. Oh and he wasn't on a stag tonight just out with a friend.

Found out as I Where's My Iphone'd him as he was meant to just be in our town, and I thought he'd be heading home.

We're meant to be going away on a romantic break in a few weeks, but a the minute I don't want him near me sad

How would u deal with this?

NewNames Sat 06-Oct-12 01:08:33

I wouldn't like it at all. But give it a few days.

Explain why you hate it so much (and think of better reasons than 'it feels like he's cheated on me', because he hasn't) and communicate your disgust.

But, I would move on from it.

NewNames Sat 06-Oct-12 01:15:14

Sorry that was a rubbish answer. Give it a bump in the morning when the wise people are about.

I suspect most will pick up on you using the Find My IPhone app and wonder why you've been doing that, whether you trust him, is this an ongoing thing etc.

Casmama Sat 06-Oct-12 01:22:05

I agree with new names, at what point was a "where are you" text insufficient and "where's my iPhone" the way to go? Does he have previous that makes you not trust him?

deleted203 Sat 06-Oct-12 01:26:12

I'm really sorry you are so sad. I honestly don't think I would be that bothered if it was my DH (can't imagine he would want to, though). However, that is not the point, IMO. The point is he knew that this would make you unhappy and that you would hate it, and yet he went ahead anyway. That is showing no concern whatsoever for your feelings. Being 'curious' about things does not give him the right to do something knew would be a serious kick in the teeth to you. I think I would perhaps take this line in a conversation with him. Suppose you went out for the night with a male friend, didn't come home all night and crashed on his sofa. You wouldn't have cheated. But would your DH be happy about it?

RunnyBum Sat 06-Oct-12 01:28:48

No we've always been readers of each others texts Etc (in a nosy way) and I just wondered which pub he was in, in our town as I was bored at home and deciding whether to wait up or go to sleep - nothing more sinister!

izzyizin Sat 06-Oct-12 01:34:10

Depending on whether it was his bright idea or his friend's to visit a lap dancing joint, he's either a ram or a sheep and there's not a great deal of difference in terms of iq levels.

As for him not enjoying having a private 'dance' while he's sat in a chair, shame the iphone app didn't send back photos of her boobs mashed in his face his exact location.

How would I deal with it? Make it clear to him that I'd revised my respect for him downwards and wait to see if he can build it up again. FWIW, as life is far too short to waste time on tossers, I wouldn't wait very long before blowing him out if he can't/won't step up to the plate.

Tell him that curiousity killed the cat and if he can't curb his, the next kerb he'll see will be the one you'll kick him to.

Gotta love izzy's replies lol

CogitoErgoSometimes Sat 06-Oct-12 06:44:25

Having been to a lap-dancing bar myself once, I found it unsexy, unexciting & disappointing. The dancers looked bored. The (mostly male) audience looked slightly embarrassed, very quiet and concentrated on their drinks. I've also been to a few 'Full Monty' type evenings with a female audience watching male strippers and those, by contrast, are a riot. Lots of good-natured laughter, 'phwoaaars' and yells of 'gerremoff!!!!'.

So the answer to how I would deal with this is to commiserate my partner on having had a fairly dull evening....

Strawhatpirate Sat 06-Oct-12 07:34:27

Not sure what he was curious about tbh, haven't strip clubs been around since the dawn of time? If it was my dh in questio I would be making it very cleas that I wasn't going to 'forget' about until we had some very long srs chats and provided an answer as to wtf he was doing. Good luck op hope you feel better soon.

MadAboutHotChoc Sat 06-Oct-12 07:35:51

FFS, he went because he was "curious"? Is he a teenager? hmm

He can do a lot better than that. Tell him you want a real man not a boy.

DinosaursOnASpaceship Sat 06-Oct-12 07:53:06

It wouldn't be acceptable to me. Years ago I left my husband and got divorced because he had been to a lap dancing club. He knew that would be my reaction and how much I detested them and went anyway. I left as soon as he got back with the dc. Gone was my lovely husband, all I could see was a letchy perv on front of me. He knew my boundaries and he crossed the line. Lots of people would say that I over reacted but he (and partners since) have always known its a deal breaker for me.

SimplyTes Sat 06-Oct-12 07:59:40

I loathe the thought of DH at a strip club, he has been in the past and it would probably be a deal breaker if he did it in the future. Seems even more seedy when you are so much older with kids.

Figgygal Sat 06-Oct-12 08:13:31

I honestly wouldn't give two monkeys it's a one off, it was a stag do it's not like he's round there every week spending your money on dances.

MajorB Sat 06-Oct-12 08:19:05

Why don't you tell him that tonight you're going out. You're going to go to a club, buy a fit bloke a couple of drinks, rub up against him on the dance floor and then take the guy to a quiet corner and get him to strip off so you can see his six pack, and the curve of his penis in his pants to give you something to masturbate over later.

Also tell him that you're going to do all of this in front of your friends, whose partners/husbands are his friends, so they'll all know you like to get your kicks from other men, because clearly he isn't enough for you.

Then ask him "That's ok isn't it? Because I'm just curious."

He'll either get how awful his behaviour has been, and that he's completely destroyed his "forsaking all others" vow, or he'll be happy for you to go for it, and you'll know he either wants a much more open marriage, or is looking for a way out.

MajorB Sat 06-Oct-12 08:20:19

Figgygal it was not a stag do, he was just out with a mate.

LittleBairn Sat 06-Oct-12 08:22:30

It really wouldn't matter to me who had the idea to visit, he's a grown man who makes his on choices in life and should shoulder the responsibility for them.
Does he know that you view visiting these places as cheating?

Personally I find it cheating, DH is well aware of it ( has zero desire to visit such a place) and that he would be packing his bags f he did visit.
But if you have allowed it before then it would be unfair now to be upset about it. Allowing it once even for stag dos sets a precedent.

Figgygal Sat 06-Oct-12 08:24:44

My apologies it wasn't a stag do but I still wouldn't care other than over the likely waste of money getting in and the over inflated drinks prices.

BillyBollyBandy Sat 06-Oct-12 08:25:06

See, it's not the fact of the naked ladies that bothers me so much, it is the attitude that a man must have towards women that they can be bought for his sexual enjoyment. That's what I would hate.

I think going on a stag do is bad enough, lovely way to celebrate spending the rest of your life with someone, but on a night out with a mate just seems seedy.

Well it is all seedy, but that even more so.

MajorB Sat 06-Oct-12 08:27:20

Figgy just out of curiosity, would you mind your DP going if you knew your daughter/friend/aunt/goddaughter worked there?

hmc Sat 06-Oct-12 08:29:23

Agree Billy - the attitude this reveals towards women upsets me too

hzgreen Sat 06-Oct-12 08:40:25

izzyizin and majorb, great responses!
Some people would be ok with this others not so much, the point is OP you need to decide where your own line is.

I wouldn't stand for it for many reasons but mainly because I would find my DH less attractive if he were that type of person. I think I would be so blindsided and utterly disappointed in him it would take me a long time to get past it, if at all. And if he were this unapologetic about it I would be. Seriously questioning if we're still compatible on a basic level.

If you're the type of person that is ok with this then great but if not there is nothing wrong with feeling hurt, upset and deeply offended by his behaviour. This shouldn't be news to your DH if he knows you at all.

Februarytwotimes Sat 06-Oct-12 08:44:15

I'd be very surprised if this was the only time tbh.

It would bother me, it did when ex H did it but I don't think it's a deal breaker.

ceeveebee Sat 06-Oct-12 09:03:47

It wouldn't bother me at all. Means nothing. But then my DH would tell me when he got home (has always done so after previous stag dos /lads nights out) and he hasn't been on one of them for a few years.

I would never dream of using find my iphone to track him down, however you try to explain it there is clearly an underlying trust issue there.

zippey Sat 06-Oct-12 09:06:08

Both women and men can go to strip clubs. Its a legitimate activity and can be good fun. But if its a deal breaker for you then, not much you can do about it now except talk to him.

Offred Sat 06-Oct-12 09:06:57

Glad I'm not the only one who considers this a deal breaker. I've been abused and bullied often for my "infamous" statement that I'd rather my dh had an affair than went to a strip club because going to a strip club shows a level of comfort with the abuse/ownership of women whereas having an affair would be about feelings for someone else.

I don't think it matters whether you op should feel like me or figgygal or anything in between. What matters is only how you do feel about it. Those are feelings you are entitled to feel - if you feel it is cheating that is a valid feeling (not mine but I can see why) and I don't think people should get to tell you where your boundaries are in a relationship.

QuickLookBusy Sat 06-Oct-12 09:13:55

Agree with all those saying it is a deal breaker. I just couldn't be with someone who thought it was ok to stand in a room full of exploited young women.
The thing is, these men think the women are loving it. So he would be a very thick, deluded man and I wouldn't be able to put up with that.

MadAboutHotChoc Sat 06-Oct-12 09:26:03

It is a deal breaker for me - lap dancing clubs are part of the sex industry and going to one shows you have warped sexist attitudes about women.

Not everything that goes on is "legitimate" and I am sure many of the women working there do not view being perved over by dirty fuckers and having to perform as "good fun"hmm

SammyTheSwedishSquirrel Sat 06-Oct-12 10:00:57

Deal breaker for me too.

TheKettle Sat 06-Oct-12 10:20:22

The thread title says 'nude' lap dancing club. Does that mean at this particular establishment the women don't wear a thong? I thought most areas of the UK licensing laws specify that they have to wear knickers of some description? I'm so out touch.
If they're nude it's even more abhorrent. It's always sickened me if a DP of mine goes to one and I was naive enough to think they were just looking at breasts/bum...

zippey Sat 06-Oct-12 10:26:35

You women are a bit too harsh in my opinion. He hasnt had an affair, and he hasnt been with a prosititute. He may have been to this bar, watched the women and had a few drinks. Alternativly he could have been at another bar, watched 22 men kick a ball about and had a few drinks doing it.

I dont know if you can call the people who work there exploited. They are doing their job and probably being paid well for it. Better that than be exploited for minimum wage at another job you despise. Thats a whole diffe3rent argument I guess. But women who work there will often choose to do so.

Men might think the women involved are loving it, but the same could be said for people getting served by a happy looking assitant in a shop.

I dont see the essential difference between womens strip clubs, which are looked upon as acceptable and mens clubs which are looked upon as seedy.

But I agree with offred when she says it really is the OPs decision about where she draws the line.

Bluestocking Sat 06-Oct-12 10:35:19

Dealbreaker for me too.
zippey, read this account of time spent in one of Britain's oldest lapdancing clubs and see if you think it's just "doing a job".

OneMoreGo Sat 06-Oct-12 10:36:23

It would be a dealbreaker for me too, and I also agree with Offred in that I'd prefer him to have an affair than go to a strip club, for the same reasons.

Doha Sat 06-Oct-12 10:39:42

Dealbreaker for me too

TheKettle Sat 06-Oct-12 10:59:08

you women is never a good way for a man to start a discussion where he wants to be heard. JMO.

glastocat Sat 06-Oct-12 11:02:38

Deal breaker for me too, simply because I couldn't love and respect someone who thought this was ok.

glastocat Sat 06-Oct-12 11:03:10

You women? Wtf?

Proudnscary Sat 06-Oct-12 11:20:33

I'd have a big problem with this as he was just out with a mate.

I wouldn't be terribly impressed if he visited said club on a stag do but as that would be borne out of a stupid and juvenile group decision and what 'men are supposed to do' on stag nights, I'd roll my eyes, call him a creep and forget about it.

I'd do what Izzy said really.

QuickLookBusy Sat 06-Oct-12 11:23:15

You women?? Ha ha ha

Sorry, but I didn't read anything further than your first two words zippey. I wonder if I missed anything hmm

CarrotsForRebeccaRabbit Sat 06-Oct-12 11:29:02

I would be devestated if my DH did this.

Firstly because we are married, commited nd I see NO reasn for him to feel the need to see naother naked woman stood in front of him.

Secondly he knows my confidence is low and it would affect me deeply to know he had been looking at another womns body and I would assume, compring it to mine

(BTW he has never been to any type of strip club .. or club... or even pub!)

And thirdly I would make me sick to my stomach to see him treat some stranger as a piece of meat to oogle and letch at. Who knows the circumstances that brought her to be in that line of work, possibly some desperatly sad ones and I see it as exploition.

Fairenuff Sat 06-Oct-12 11:38:32

Well, looking at the facts:

He's been before so he wasn't 'curious' - that was a lie.

He says he didn't pay for a personal dance but would he tell you the truth if he had?

He knew that you would be upset if he went there, but did it anyway.

He says he only went because of his friend so he is either a) too weak to speak up for himself or b) lying

Not much there to respect is there? Not much respect for you either.

Fairenuff Sat 06-Oct-12 11:43:02

zippey But women who work there will often choose to do so

And the ones that don't choose? How do you know which are which when you are watching a woman strip? Serious question.

janelikesjam Sat 06-Oct-12 12:15:21

I have some sympathy with what Fairenuff says. If it feels like a minor abberation I would probably be upset for a few days but perhaps get over it? OTOH I would find it strange if I had an established partner who found himself wanting to go and watch strippers, unless he was a cokehead or something shock. But if there are deeper issues about your differing values and relationship, I guess you need to think about that OP.

p.s. I am not sure that lapdancers feel that exploited though. They often get alot of money for not doing very much.

BillyBollyBandy Sat 06-Oct-12 12:56:23

I think that you need to consider the damage on your mental health of being treated as a commodity night after night, and the level of self esteem these women have to make them think this is the best they can do. Apart from the violence/drug issues which are often in the background of most sex workers.

There will always be some who come through unscathed, but the majority don't. Which doesn't equate to getting a lot of money for not doing very much.

And finally, sadly there are often not just dances on offer at these clubs. And I think we all accept the impact of prostitution on a person.

MaBaya Sat 06-Oct-12 13:08:35

It wouldnt bother me massively if it was a rare occurrence, although my DH has only been once and hated it. But it does matter that he knows this upsets you and yet has still done it. Is he going to do it again? A frank discussion is needed. He must at keast take your feeings into account. It wasnt a mistake - thats lame - he went and paid to watch nude girls dance willingly.

quietlysuggests Sat 06-Oct-12 13:37:15

Do you think he does this regularly?
Would he not have to very very unlucky that you found out on his first time there?

I would ridicule and berate him for the rest of his natural life or till I got bored

Any complaint would be met with "So what, you went to a lapdance bar you sick fucker"

He would rue the day he ever thought that was a good idea.

SomethingOnce Sat 06-Oct-12 17:59:20

Men might think the women involved are loving it, but the same could be said for people getting served by a happy looking assitant in a shop.

zippey, if you'd feel the same way about a woman you love doing either of those for a living, whilst faking happy, then fine. If not, what does that tell you?

janelikesjam Sat 06-Oct-12 18:42:15

What Major B said earlier is an interesting way to approach the subject.

Billy, I have sympathy for what you say, it is not something I would want to do. But some lap dancers do not engage in prostitution or have mental health problems. I think it is relatively easy money, though I agree not without its "price" at least in terms of social respectability. Some women earn a considerable amount with no education in relation to other alternatives.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sat 06-Oct-12 18:55:52

Just out of interest... do we think the kind of men that go around nightclubs full of happily squealing women doing 'Full Monty' acts also have histories of violence, drugs and low self-esteem for being treated as a commodity?

AThingInYourLife Sat 06-Oct-12 19:05:49

Dealbreaker for me.

Lap dancing clubs are for scumbags.

SheppySheepdog Sat 06-Oct-12 19:08:47

Agree with Major B. Tell him that fair is fair and so you are off out to look for some cock. Just see what he thinks to that. grin

minnieroll Sun 07-Oct-12 13:09:50

My DP also went to a strip club and DID have a private dance. I totally freaked out and none of my friends could understand why. I stand by the fact that a naked chick gyrating on DP's lap IS cheating - the only difference in my opinion is the penis entering the vagina. That's just geography.

LineRunner Sun 07-Oct-12 13:14:28

I also saw some posts on another thread about this subject that were so sad - women saying how much debt their DHs had racked up on credit cards at lap dancing clubs.

Do they show off waving the card around or something?

mrsfuzzy Sun 07-Oct-12 13:21:48

i'd hate it personally and i'd make it known that it had really gutted me out, its right to say he can make his own choices but why would he do it if he knows how much it hurts you? like other writers have said, several choices here; talk about it and get his reaction, if he laughs it off or tells you your being silly, can you forgive and forget? does he get another chance, do it again and that's it or do you give him the elbow and find someone who respects your feelings abit more? tp most men because they seem to keep their brains in their boxers they dont always realise how these 'it was nothing' things do mean something very much to the women who love them.

negativecreep Sun 07-Oct-12 13:50:20

I don't think I'd stay with my partner if I found out he went to a lap dancing club. Good for all the women that don't care but I like to be "enough" for my partner and I'd like him to be satisfied enough with my body. Also I do find all that scene quite degrading to women and not nice.

Charbon Sun 07-Oct-12 13:51:18

Just out of interest... do we think the kind of men that go around nightclubs full of happily squealing women doing 'Full Monty' acts also have histories of violence, drugs and low self-esteem for being treated as a commodity?

No, because unlike female lap dancers, they don't start in debit and have to pay the venue for allowing them to appear, aren't reliant on private dances and tips to earn their appearance fee and don't live in a world where women-as-a-group have more structural power than men. There is no equivalence, apart from what is a subjective judgement about what passes for good entertainment on a night out. Personally, there would be hundreds of more enjoyable ways I'd like to spend an evening than a 'Full Monty' experience and as a general point, think it is no more edifying objectifying men for their sexuality than women. But there is no equivalence between the two politically, or in terms of what has led to the employment choices of male and female dancers.

As for the OP, it doesn't matter whether other posters have different views to you on this. You're entitled to your feelings and expectations of your particular partner. You're also entitled to state them and having done so, to get some honesty about future behaviour. Your partner has the right to continue to use lapdancing clubs (while they still exist) but he has a responsibility to tell you of those intentions so you can make an informed decision about whether you want to stay with a man who thinks this is acceptable. What he doesn't have the right to do is to lie about it, because that takes away your choices.

You might conclude that having been clear about your expectations in the past, he has continued to visit sexual entertainment venues and would have hidden that and hoped that you wouldn't find out, a state of affairs that might prevail if you believe any new insistence on his part that he will stop.

KnitFastDieWarm Sun 07-Oct-12 15:46:17

Offred - I, for one, absolutely agree with you about preferring to discover DP was having an affair. I'd still be gutted, but if he wad using women for paid sexual gratification I would never be able to look at him with respect again. Totally get your point.

oldwomaninashoe Sun 07-Oct-12 16:22:13

Do point out to your DH that the attitude of the woman who work in these places to the punters that come in is one of utter disdain.

They see them as sad, stupid and pathetic blokes who only think with their dicks and deserve to be exploited for every penny they can get out of them!

(My sons girlfriend is a studentand one of her housemates, also a student, is a lap dancer)

DadDancer Mon 22-Oct-12 23:26:17

To the persons on here who made the comments about leaving their other halves if they visited a lap dancing club. I would like to ask you the question how you would react/ have reacted to you OH viewing porn? and if you don't have a problem with porn then why take exception to them paying a visit to a lap dancing club?

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 23-Oct-12 08:37:42

I am anti porn as well.

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 08:50:01

I don't think people can legitimately set ridiculously low bars for "dealbreakers" if they want a real marriage and to look after their children properly. How low is it reasonable to set the bar and then say: "oh, he knew it all along". How about glancing at another woman? Chatting to a woman in a bar? To me, setting dealbreakers such as this is as controlling as a man never letting his wife chat to another man.

I can see why someone may be dissapointed and not happy with it but to equate it with infidelity is ridiculous. I would find the idea of being located with a "find my iphone" app far creepier and more of a legitimate deal breaker, to be honest. People, even within a relationship, are entitled to some respect for their privacy. What next? Bug your partner? Hidden webcam? And, all justified by "curiosity".

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 23-Oct-12 08:54:58

Yes larry because chatting to someone in a bar and dancing naked in a bar are exactly the same. hmm

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 08:57:43

Nope, not exactly the same but still a ridiculously low and unreasonable bar to set within a long term marriage with children. I am extending the analogy (you seem to be struggling with this). The argument that "he knew my dealbreakers" all along can be extended to all sorts of controlling behaviours.

If a man had installed an app to track his wife on a night out, he would be called all sorts of things, abusive being the least of them.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 23-Oct-12 09:03:40

If her DP had already said to her don't use find my iPhone and she did - well, she would have been doing a thing he had expressly asked her not to. Exactly like he has done, not worse. If he has never asked her not to, definitely not worse.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 23-Oct-12 09:07:02

still a ridiculously low and unreasonable bar to set within a long term marriage with children

Why is it a low bar?

Would it be different if there were no kids or if its a new relationship? if so, why?

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 09:07:12

It is an extremely high bar to set for me larry who the hell are you to dictate how other people should feel about things? I'd forgive an affair as an indiscretion which was about feelings. I would not forgive visiting strippers or a lap dancing bar because it demonstrates casual or desiring feelings about the abuse of women and is not something I would be prepared to forgive. It isn't even vaguely related to infidelity in my mind and I think you should try and understand how people feel about it before you sweep in with your criticism. I'd also find it hard to tolerate mainstream porn and I expect my husband won't want to use those things. If he does want to I'm happy for him to fuck off and I'll be extremely happy to be by myself.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 23-Oct-12 09:12:23

if they want a real marriage and to look after their children properly

So taking part in the sex industry i,e porn and lapdancing is part of a "real marriage" and "looking after children properly" hmm

I think its so important to bring up children to respect women and ensure that they have healthy views of sex, sexuality and women's bodies.

expatinscotland Tue 23-Oct-12 09:18:05

How long have you been with this person? Is he your spouse or live-in partner? Do you have children together?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 23-Oct-12 09:20:05

Find my iPhone comes automatically I believe.

In no way am I struggling. A spectrum of behaviour from acceptable to unacceptable might run from chatting to someone else to fucking someone else. Deliberately seeking out someone else to see naked is obviously between these two. You think it is closer to the former, lots of others think it is closer to the latter. You haven't made an analogy, you have picked another point on the spectrum as your personal limit.

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 09:25:25

"Would it be different if there were no kids or if its a new relationship? if so, why?"

Yes, of course. In a new relationship, you can split up if you don't like the way someone talks, dresses or whatever. It is an exploration pre commitment making. The more commitment you make (engagement, marriage etc), the higher the "dealbreaker" bar should be.

With children, especially, it should be reasonably high as splitting up will have a big effect on them. Clearly it cannot be impossibly high as living together in misery affects everyone. On the other hand, setting it at the same level as if you were living separately and just dating seems to me both impractical and selfish.

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 09:33:25

Doctrine,

"Find my iPhone comes automatically I believe.

In no way am I struggling. A spectrum of behaviour from acceptable to unacceptable might run from chatting to someone else to fucking someone else. Deliberately seeking out someone else to see naked is obviously between these two. You think it is closer to the former, lots of others think it is closer to the latter. You haven't made an analogy, you have picked another point on the spectrum as your personal limit."

Re the first point, I am not sure how that is relevant. If you buy something which comes complete with bug and hidden webcam, it does not change the nature of using it to spy on your partner.

I take your point in your second paragraph. But it is not entirely up to people to set "personal" limits. Or, to be more exact, of course it is. You can divorce your husband over serving you instant rather than real coffee, if you like. On the other hand, most people accept reasonable limits which are societally determined. To deviate ridiculously from these makes one an unreasonable person in most people's eyes (and also makes it highly likely for a reasonable partner to cross your "personal" limits). As I said, I can see why some would find a lapdancing bar distasteful but as long as they exist and are utilised by a lot of stage dos (and I suspect it is more than 50%) then to set going to one as a personal limit means you are highly likely to end up divorced, especially if you spy on your partner. I suspect strongly that most hen night shenanigans are borderline morally acceptable at best.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 09:37:13

It is the opposite to me if I was just dating someone when i had no children who I knew visited strip clubs I might not dump them because depending on their interaction with them they would only be a risk to me. I would not see them as a potential long term partner though. If my husband who I had children with went to a strip club or nude lap dancing club I would see it as very important to leave as I would not want to be part of that being acceptable treatment of another human being.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 09:41:13

I do not believe most reasonable or rational adult people should allow society to determine how they should feel... Crazy and how can you assume that I'd be fine with male strippers and hen dos when I object to strippers (ie all) an stag dos? It is not in any way the same as leaving over coffee FFS. Please try and objectively assess the argument before deciding it is objectively trivial and should be put up with.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 09:45:42

By your argument it was "reasonable" to own slaves, imprison homosexuals, pay women less than men, persecute Catholics etc all because that was society's view at the time. What a ridiculous view...

Meepameep Tue 23-Oct-12 09:45:56

Its a deal breaker for me and the reason my exdh and I divorced. Been with my DH for 17 years now but if I found out he had gone to a place like that, I would not hesitate to leave.

For me it speaks volumes about his view on woman and how his need for sexual gratification, overrides any moral fibre he may have. But thats just me.

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 09:48:11

Offred,

I have and there are two strands to the anti-lapdancing argument:

1/ It is infidelity. I think that I have dealt with that one.

2/ You are participating in an exploitative industry where you do not know for a fact that the girls are both overage and there voluntarily.

With regard to the second argument, I would say that you can formulate a good idea of both and, in addition, in just about every "product" we consume (and many "products" such as restaurants involve live human beings) we cannot be sure that no exploitation has taken place. In fact, in a lot of products made in the far east, it is a fair bet that people were expolited in their fabrication.

So, I have assessed the arguments and still believe that they are setting the bar way too high unless people don't eat meat (slaughterhouses are demeaning to both the animals and the humans working there), never buy a product made in the far east etc. Most are us are actually, as you would put it, human beings, and therefore fallible. A lapdancing club may not be any man's finest hour on this earth but, on the other hand, it is hardly the most terrible sin, either.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 23-Oct-12 09:49:28

So it does not matter if one think its ok to have warped views, abuse women bodies, disrespect their wife and family if you are in a long marriage with children? hmm

what a load of crock.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 09:53:05

Seriously larry you have neither listened to nor assessed my argument and your argument seems to be the equivalent of my seven year old; "I want a ds" "what for?" "I don't know" "no then" "but everyone in school has one."

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 09:58:00

Offred,

Everyone in school has a son?! Yep, our 3 year old's stock answer is "not sure" or "because I like it".

However, I have dealt with the arguments and I even agree that maybe, in a highly developed society, we should not have lap dancing bars. Yes, it is a chicken and egg situation but, to go back to someone's analogy of slavery, the best way to deal with it was to fight to change people's views and then enact legislation. Anyone of a certain class who refused to marry a man with a slave at a certain point in history would have had a very limited choice of men.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 10:02:29

For clarity my argument is;

I am an individual who deserves respect and the right to set my own boundaries within my relationships and to make my own decisions about who I have what kind of relationship with.

The sex industry actually damages society and the individuals involved in it and I personally do not want my children to be raised to believe it is in any way acceptable for a variety of reasons including the importance of consent, bodily autonomy, respect for another's equality in sexual experiences, the rejection of the objectification of women, rejection of the idea of the superiority of men etc

I especially don't want my children to be raised to do what everyone else does without thinking about the consequences for themselves... Totally idiotic that would be...

It is not a low bar, it is a high bar precisely because people seem to have this idea of it being harmless or what everyone does so objecting to it is difficult. It is not unreasonable to expect that I can find a relationship with someone who agrees with this and it isn't unreasonable to expect that I should be able to leave that relationship if this very important boundary is crossed.

It does not equate or relate to infidelity which I don't see as damaging in the same way necessarily (dependent on circs).

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 10:02:57

No a Nintendo ds - does it matter?

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 10:04:30

Offred,

This entire convo doesn't really "matter". Few things do, ultimately especially on the internet. I was just curious.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 10:04:54

Why does a woman need a man so badly she has to set her bar low enough to tolerate men who abuse other humans?

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 10:06:38

You don't even make any sense. You say we should change people's opinions but also women should STFU about men going to lap dancing bars because everyone does it and women should have their standards set by society not by their own values.

I don't think the strip club is the issue, it's that he did something that he knew you would hate. Have you explained clearly and rationally why you dislike them - I mean had a discourse about how you feel it shows a disrespect for women to view them as a commodity and the downside of the sex industry, or was it just a "I'd hate it if you went to one of those places"?

If it was the former, then I think it is a potential deal breaker, unless he has given opposing and rational thoughts on why he thinks that lap dance clubs are actually okay. If it's just the latter then he may not have truly understood how deeply offended you would be by him visiting such a place.

As an aside, for me it would not be a deal breaker, I've been to clubs and chatted to the dancers. I do know that it is an incredibly expensive evening though.

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 10:09:53

Offred,

She doesn't "need" a man at all but she chose to be with one and raise children with them. Your idea of "abuse" is highly questionable, especially by the many willing employees of lap dancing bars. However, you will argue that they are the handmaidens of the patriarchy and need to wake up. This is where your and my ideas of independent human beings with independent thoughts and rights are going to be antithetical.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 10:12:56

I agree it's not the issue. However I take issue with Larry saying that women should not be allowed to find it an important issue. Or men for that matter. That's why it's important because Larry is effectively saying STFU because you shouldn't see it as important on a thread where this wasn't the issue.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 10:13:34

Only if you continue telling me what it is I think larry.

olgaga Tue 23-Oct-12 10:14:13

I don't agree that it is a "legitimate activity" at all.

Some people might, but I really wouldn't want anyone who gets off on that kind of atmosphere in my life.

He claims he was just curious (inspite having been before and knowing all about it!!)

Well, that's laughable isn't it!

You obviously don't trust him, OP - rghtly so by the sound of it. You aren't happy about it, and I don't blame you. It would certainly be the end for me. I couldn't love someone I had lost all respect for.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 10:16:22

What's wrong then with choosing to limit your choice of men by standing by your personal beliefs which may go against the grain? You said that was the point that women wouldn't find a man to marry. Also in this thread the op's feelings about lap dancing are well established and known by her OH, he has chosen to disrespect her. Also think having children with someone is not a reason to stay with someone who disrespects you.

olgaga Tue 23-Oct-12 10:21:44

Well said Offred and kudos to you - I can't be bothered with these trolls who patrol this topic with their attention-seeking interventions.

Shirsten Tue 23-Oct-12 10:22:59

I have been in a similar situation and I was devastated. My ex was incredibly cruel about the whole thing and I would not go out with a man now who went to strip clubs.

One thing that gets me is why some women are ok with their partners doing it. Yet if they were to wait in the bedroom while their husband had a woman round on a Saturday night to take her clothes off and rub herself naked on his crotch and stick her crotch in his face, I don't think they'd be too happy.

Yet because it's on the high street, and money changes hands for it, somehow it's ok.

I would make it very clear now to any man that I go out with that I wouldn't put up with it now. I respect a man much more for saying that he doesn't want to go in one than just going along with the crowd and not wanting to treat women like objects.

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 10:24:21

Offred,

Because they have both already chosen one another and invested time, emotion, money etc etc into the relationship. Because I am sure that he does not believe that he is disrespecting her; it is not for her alone to define "disrespect" (or the sample on MN who participate in these threads). Because, even if you feel this is one incident of disrespect, one infraction should not lead to splitting a family up with all the consequences to the children.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 10:27:29

I think you are misunderstanding what disrespect is now larry. Disrespect for the relationship and your partner is not necessarily going to the lap dancing club it is continuing in a relationship with someone who is opposed to them and going to them anyway.

SorryMyLollipop Tue 23-Oct-12 10:28:22

larrygrylls it's one thing to be aware of exploitation in terms of buying products that are possibly made in sweatshops in the far east etc.

It is a whole other level to pay to watch people being exploited.

I buy my kids cheap trainers, however, I would not enjoy paying to watch those trainers being made by child slaves.

YOU like lapdancing clubs. You are trying to justify this but failing because your arguments and analogies are all over the place.

I am very pleased that my "bar" is too high for you to get over grin

Anyway, back to the OP he knows I hate it
He knows you hate it, he still went, willingly. That is very disrespectful. No matter where your "bar" is in terms of specific behaviours if my DP chose to do something know that I would hate it and be hurt by it = dealbreaker

SorryMyLollipop Tue 23-Oct-12 10:28:56

*knowing

Wanting a partner who doesn't see the exploitation and objectification of women as a harmless and fun night out is not setting the dealbreaker bar particularly low IMO (or high - I'm a bit confused now confused).

My 'dealbreaker' bar is always in the same place, it's just that with a casual relationship, breaking the deal is a whole lot less painful and complicated.

This limits my choice of men in the same way that removing all the rotten apples from a barrel limits my choice of apples smile

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 10:30:03

You don't get to determine where other people's boundaries should be larry.

Shirsten Tue 23-Oct-12 10:32:00

Many men know their wives/partners won't like it but go anyway and lie to them about what goes on. This is what my ex did and what several of my old colleagues did frequently. They think of it as their right to go and, because strip clubs are so normalised now, it's hard to argue against them.

After it happened to me, I got involved with campaigning against them in my city. I didn't want another woman to go through what I went through. I want to see strip clubs become something that's not as normal as going to the cinema on a Saturday night.

One friend of mine went on a stag do not long after his wife had a baby. She had gained a lot of weight during the pregnancy. When I asked if she knew he'd been (because he was so matter of fact about it) he said "do I look like I've got "stupid" written on my forehead?"

I had a terrible time with my ex and don't even want to relive the conversations we had because he was such a bastard about it all (he was abusive anyway and it gave him another way to exert some control over me).

So never again!

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 10:34:33

"I buy my kids cheap trainers, however, I would not enjoy paying to watch those trainers being made by child slaves".

I actually think that is worse.

I have enjoyed lapdancing clubs with friends/colleagues at the end of a long evening. Always stayed in the main area. Not been to one for many many years now and can take or leave them, so no incentive for me to justify going to them on a personal level.

I am also married and faithful so your personal bar of no interest to me, either.

If all your friends are going, especially at something like a stag, it is quite disrespectful to the rest of the party to say at the end of the evening: "not for me thanks, my wife does not approve". For some people, friendships matter too and they are caught between a rock and a hard place. It is not disrespectful to someone to do something that they do not like if, in your personal morality, you see nothing wrong with it. The other side of this argument is emotional abuse where one partner tries to unreasonably control the other partner's movements, interactions etc. The line between one partner being "disrespectful" or the other "controlling" is a fine one and it is not up to one parner to unilaterally define it.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 10:37:16

larry is a user of sex trade establishments, it is quite clear smile

OP, never mind, all men do it, you are not a proper wife and mother if you don't forgive him for this and you must squash your own moral objections if you want a relationship with a man

ok ?

then ask him what it cost to watch other women stripping, and spend an equivalent on a spa day for yourself

or a handbag

or put it towards a boob job so you you can make yourself more like these women, and you husband will fancy you more

or summat

sorted

SorryMyLollipop Tue 23-Oct-12 10:38:02

Not wanting someone to do something because you don't want them to do it = controlling/abusive

Not wanting someone to do something because you believe it to harm another person = reasonable

Hullygully Tue 23-Oct-12 10:40:01

tell him to fuck off

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 10:42:05

Sorry,

Depends on whether the belief is rational and whether you also indulge in behaviours where the same amount of potential harm can be done.

Eat meat (I do)? Ever worried about how many slaughterworkmen or women are paid the minimum wage or how many are foreign and forced into that kind of work to feed their families at sub minimum wage? Doubt it. You may not think that is the moral equivalent of visting a lap dancing joint but many would and why are you so sure that you are right?

olgaga Tue 23-Oct-12 10:42:47

How kind of Larry to spend so much time dispensing his gems of wisdom to us girls.

The line between one partner being "disrespectful" or the other "controlling" is a fine one and it is not up to one parner to unilaterally define it.

So one partner's disrespect for the other has to be mutually agreed before it is valid?

Absurd waffle!

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 10:44:33

just wait 'til you see his pearls of wisdom on breastfeeding, olgaga

I don't know how we ever managed without him, I really don't confused

olgaga Tue 23-Oct-12 10:44:46

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 10:46:19

I'm not trying to say my personal bar should be of interest to you larry. I am saying you do no get to dictate how women generally should feel based on your views

Again I will say it, it is disrespectful to understand that your wife objects to you visiting lap dancing clubs and then to go to them secretly. It is not about having different views on them or objections to them trumping desire to use them where there is a disagreement. It is about the decision that your view is more important and so you are going to do what you like and what your wife doesn't know won't hurt her. A respectful adult would have given their wife the opportunity to make her own choice about the difference of opinion instead of seeing it as his right to make a unilateral decision about it.

Hullygully Tue 23-Oct-12 10:46:26

Don't waste time with Lazzer.

He also thinks calling black people "chocolate face" is fine because "chocolate is nice."

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 10:46:50

Olgaga,

I am putting my perspective, as is every other poster on this board. You don't need to freight it with loaded terms such as "dispensing wisdom".

And, yes, it does. If one partner tells the other one that looking at someone of the other sex is disrespectful, are they from that point required to avert their eyes when they walk past someone of the opposite sex? Or how about if a man tells a woman not wearing a burqa is disrespectful? Fair? What is and is not disrespectful cannot be unilaterally decided in a relationship or are you going to continue to insist that is "absurd waffle"?

Cahoots Tue 23-Oct-12 10:47:02

Ewwww, yuk. I would find that very distasteful if my DH did that.

I totally agree with
Fairenuff Sat 06-Oct-12 11:38:32

Read it again as it is spot on.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 10:47:33

The thing to do is not engage directly. Taking the piss can really brighten up a boring Tuesday while you wait for the washing machine repair person though smile

SorryMyLollipop Tue 23-Oct-12 10:47:54

I don't eat meat. Not that it's relevant. Anyway, I know from friends of mine who have worked there that abattoirs tend to pay well over the minimum wage because they find it hard to recruit.

Like I said earlier, being aware of exploitation and getting a kick out of paying to watch it take place are two different things. Many would agree that paying to watch people being exploited is worse. You, however, will argue the opposite somehow.

Oh and everything that Offred said too, x10

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 10:48:51

"I think that from now on we should ignore trolls like Larry, OneMoreChap etc. I'm sick of the way they intervene and mess up genuine threads."

Yep, far better to allow the MN Relationship politburo to dictate the thought process of the OP. First to decide a behaviour is a dealbreaker, next to post all the appropriate links to get someone efficiently to the divorce courts.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 10:49:07

And to be honest everything you mention larry are things I personally do think about and make choices about in my life and my relationships and my parenting and my husband and I have similar stated beliefs about which is one reason why I chose him to marry. However it is irrelevant, a totally irrelevant point to say in order to object to one thing you must object to them all.

SorryMyLollipop Tue 23-Oct-12 10:49:29

Not wanting someone to do something because you don't want them to do it = controlling/abusive

Not wanting someone to do something because you believe it to harm another person = reasonable

larrygrylls = absurd waffler

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 10:50:08

Happy,

It can also get you banned where you make personal assumptions about people and post them. smile

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 10:50:48

Offred, what do you think of them cracks in the road ?

I think they are a fucking disgrace, personally

hennyway...OP how are you feeling today ?

SorryMyLollipop Tue 23-Oct-12 10:51:04

HHMF true grin I am waiting for the virgin media engineer, however.

Hullygully Tue 23-Oct-12 10:51:31

Lazz also thinks it's fine to hit kids.

He is a joyful bundle of jolly opinions

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 10:52:08

It is you who is dictating to the op though larry have you missed that? You are the one saying it is not important and women should take their views on it from society otherwise they'll have a limited choice of husbands.

You haven't even read or understood anyone's views about their objections because you are so busy telling them they fall into two camps that you have decided are not valid and will say xyz.

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 10:54:06

Never worth repairing a washing machine, anyway. Throwing good money after bad. Cost a lot to repair and you invariably need a new one within a few months anyway.

Voice of experience...sorry to be dictatorial.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 10:54:39

By contrast all I'm saying is fine you think that, I'll reserve the right to refuse to marry you on the basis of you thinking that. Something you object to why exactly?

SorryMyLollipop Tue 23-Oct-12 10:56:54

Offred because he's concerned for your welfare that you won't find a husband and fit in with "normal" society.

SorryMyLollipop Tue 23-Oct-12 10:57:29

Larry depends what's wrong with it.

LaQueen Tue 23-Oct-12 10:58:37

I tend to agree with cogito's post on the first page.

I know DH has been to LDC, on various stag dos. He's also often not bothered to go in a LDC, on a stag-do, and has opted for a curry instead - so I know he can take them or leave them.

I know he finds the high prices annoying, and it all too crowded. Basically, he just doesn't see the point of them. A naked girl (often looking fed-up, and looking like she has a day job at Tescos) twirling on a pole, 30 feet away, and your line of view blocked by 150 heads in the way...bit boring hmm

I think his attituide is shared by an awful lot of blokes. And, they just don't think deeply about the whys&wherefors of what they're doing.

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 10:59:45

Offred,

I doubt we will agree but I think anyone should choose their partner on whatever basis they wish. If they only want a partner who loves horses, fair enough. What I am saying is that, once married, they have made that decision and to reverse it, being expensive emotionally and financially, should require something pretty major. IMO (and it has no more value than anyone elses) I do not see this as pretty major and I have expressed why I take the perspective that I do.

The OP will, doubtless, weigh my perspective against everyone else's here and then come to her own decision.

larrygrylls Tue 23-Oct-12 11:01:50

Larry depends what's wrong with it.

Yeah, but you don't know in advance and the call out charge alone is probably 0ver 10% of a new machine.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 11:03:19

Guff larry, you've not written that if that's what you meant.

olgaga Tue 23-Oct-12 11:04:45

It can also get you banned where you make personal assumptions about people and post them.

Oh Happy, are you worried love?

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 11:05:17

Here was me thinking the Op was "off to the divorce courts" because of a load of controlling women telling her what she should do.

OP will make her own decision, then. That's what I thought. Except she has disappeared because people are arguing among themselves (again)

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 11:05:59

I am worried about my washing machine.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 11:08:14

I don't think it is what you meant either. I would suggest you might have to read an understand my posts before you can disagree with them. You have consistently failed to read or understand them instead seeming to have an inner narrative of "this is what feminists always say" which has closed your mind. I do no have a feminist perspective on lapdancing clubs. I am not a feminist, I'm a humanist and by the very nature of this I am not more interested in women's issues.

olgaga Tue 23-Oct-12 11:09:08

I think probably Larry could fix it for you. He's an expert on just about everything...

Sorry, I meant to say absolutely everything.

Shirsten Tue 23-Oct-12 11:10:25

I am a feminist and I became one because of the lap dancing club issue! When my ex went to one and was a complete bastard about it, I read up about them and my eyes were opened to the sense of male entitlement that there still is with things like this.

Men would hate it if it was the other way round yet women just have to suck it up.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 11:12:24

I don't see lapdancing clubs as a women's issue btw.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 11:13:07

shirsten, that's just it

women don't have to just suck it up

there is certainly a lot of societal pressure to do so, stuff like being called "not a proper wife and mother'n' shit" but it isn't compulsory to "suck it up"

LaQueen Tue 23-Oct-12 11:17:20

I think few men would be perturbed at their wives/girlfriends going to a strip club and oggling male strippers. Most men don't put much emotional context on oggling naked bodies/stripping/whatever.

However...I've often wondered how men would feel if their wives/girlfriends announced they were going to a special women-orientated club, where they could spend a stimulating evening, chatting and mingling with men, who were guaranteed to be far more athletic, far more successful in their careers and far more wealthy than their DHs hmm

I think a lot of men would find that vair brusing to their egos, and their masculinity and would be distinctly huffy about it.

Offred Tue 23-Oct-12 11:19:53

Absolute guff laqueen, crappy stereotypes perpetuated by the sex industry of men "not being emotional" and women not being sexual. Plenty of men think they won't be bothered but are.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 11:20:20

No, no

it's not the right analogy to ask "how would a man feel if you went to see a male stripper"

a better analogy is "put your wife, mother or daughter up on that stage and watch other men ogling them" is a better one

Shirsten Tue 23-Oct-12 11:20:53

I was being tongue in cheek when I said about 'sucking it up'. Out of the group of women whose partners went, I was the only one who expressed their upset about it. Everyone else (including my mum - not because my dad went but because my brothers went too) said that it was "just what men do". So because they are men, they get to do whatever they like.

I didn't just suck it up, btw. I ditched him and got into feminist campaigning and met some brilliant women who are all on the same page as me.

WereTricksPotter Tue 23-Oct-12 11:21:35

My repair company take the call-out charge off the price of a new machine if you need one.

If I were to go to an equivalent club DH would think less of me. As well he might.

LaQueen Tue 23-Oct-12 11:22:28

I stand utterly corrected Offred

Clearly my 42 years of observing human behaviour are completely invalid, and I thank you for pointing that out to me.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 11:22:49

I know shirsten, I was on your thread smile

I was taking your valid point and running with it

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 11:23:37

Washing machine is still under warranty, so you can all stop worrying about my electrical appliances smile

PosieParker Tue 23-Oct-12 11:24:01

It's a complete deal breaker in my marriage and my husband would probably have to leave, I have a long memory and it would become the stick to beat him with in every argument which would ruin my marriage anyway. But this is very very clear, DH has no reason on earth to say he didn't know how I feel. I have campaigned against SEVs for around two years now!

PosieParker Tue 23-Oct-12 11:25:28

Larry.... what if it were a dog fight and not a lap dancing bar? And why say my wife doesn't approve instead of "I don't..." or this is a deal breaker in my marriage.

Shirsten Tue 23-Oct-12 11:25:57

Well remembered, HappyHalloween!

I can't even really bear to think about it all now. It was such a horrible time.

I have sat in licensing committee hearings at the council and the guys who run the places look like the mafia. I've seen one woman turn up out of maybe 15 applicants (5 applications with maybe 3 people representing each club) so it's pretty obvious who runs and controls the clubs. They're not pleasant people.

Hullygully Tue 23-Oct-12 11:27:35

I happened by chance to know a washing machine repair man, and he came and fixed mine twice. Both times it was just the little brushes, total cost, about £15. He also told me most people don't know about them and if they get someone unscrupulous they will charge a lot more for made up stuff.

On another note, I also now a woman who designs washing machines (the glamour) and she told me the best way to use them, preserve them and to clean clothes is to use just one tablet per load, direct into the drum, because modern dertergent is so strong you don't need more and it doesn't rinse out properly.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 11:29:29

Of course, shirsten, the sex industry is not really based on pretty, empowered women showing their breasts to entertain bored men, is it ?

Despite what most people want to believe

It's a fuckload more evil and dark than that

olgaga Tue 23-Oct-12 11:29:46

Happy is right - male strip shows are more like a comedy club.

I wonder if Larry's DW goes to them for a bit of light relief - what with him also being an expert on demarcation of domestic tasks, not to mention fair division of leisure time.

hullygully there is a great website called "e-spares", which not only sells bits for lots of different washing machines, it also rates how easy the repair job is, so you will know if you can do it yourself.

(sorry for going completely offthread)

OneMoreChap Tue 23-Oct-12 11:47:29

olgaga Tue 23-Oct-12
I think that from now on we should ignore trolls like Larry, OneMoreChap

Since when did I become a troll?
In the case of the OP, she set her boundaries, made them clear, and DP crossed them.

He's a dick.

We've had a - I thought useful - discussion elsewhere about where you set boundaries/red-lines and they should generally be clear.

I've seen people set boundaries on meat-eating, smacking, sexual behaviour, PIL - all sorts of things. If they're clear, they're clear. If you don't accept someone else's boundaries, you're not much of a person.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 12:22:55

what's your opinion on my washing machine, omc ?

olgaga Tue 23-Oct-12 12:23:18

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Malificence Tue 23-Oct-12 12:35:42

I see that daddancer hasn't come back after resurrecting this thread, FYI - if you don't understand why a woman might be ok with her partner's porn use but not ok with him visiting a LDC, you are too stupid for the internet and I'm amazed that you can work a keyboard. wink
How did I know that Larry would consider a useful app like "find my friends" to be some kind of breach of privacy? hmm

WhoWhatWhereWhen Tue 23-Oct-12 12:36:13

If your relationship is at the point you feel the need to track your DP's location on an iPhone then it's dead

Malificence Tue 23-Oct-12 12:48:40

Erm, ok then hmm

I track DH on my iphone so I can start cooking his tea, he works an hour from home in the middle of nowhere with no mobule phone signal , so once he gets back to civilisation I can see where he is on find my friends, he can finish any time between 4pm and 7pm and if he's not in his office then he has no access to a landline and he's not about to spend up to 15 minutes getting to it instead of heading for home.

The fact that these apps can also trap cheating spouses is just an added bonus.

WhoWhatWhereWhen Tue 23-Oct-12 12:55:20

If DP is aware and agrees then that's a different kettle of fish

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 23-Oct-12 14:28:52

If my dh had a lapdance/ went to a strip club, in my eyes, he would instantly be transformed from the man I love, married and had children with, into someone completely different. Someone who thinks it's ok to pay women for sexual services, to gawp and leer at naked women. But he knows this.

Likewise, I would never go to squeal over a male stripper (and I mean that - I never have and never will - the whole thing is vile). I wouldn't allow myself to be 'chatted up' by another man, I wouldn't dance cheek-to-cheek with another man. Talking to members of the opposite sex is fine - but you have to know where to draw the line. It's about respecting your partner. And I expect that same respect back. And I will teach my children that same level of respect for others.

I also find it it disconcerting that Larry, a man who has admitted to going to lapdancing clubs in the past, (so clearly has a 'pro-lapdancing' agenda') sees fit to judge what goes on in other people's relationships - who do you think you are to say 'where the bar is'? Just because your wife may be ok with it (or feel she has to tolerate it) doesn't mean others do.

OP, if you're still there, I hope you are ok.

OneMoreChap Tue 23-Oct-12 14:54:35

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker
what's your opinion on my washing machine, omc ?

All washing machines are complete and utter bastards.

Only device I've ever had an extended warranty on, and the only device that the repairs made the EW useful.

I've replaced washing machine door rubbers - which are a pig but possible - but subscribe to the belief that if it's not warranty covered, buy a new one.

PosieParker Tue 23-Oct-12 14:55:17

Calgon anyone?

BabblingWreckSimianBrain Tue 23-Oct-12 14:56:37

Printers are without doubt bigger bastards than washing machines.

LaQueen Tue 23-Oct-12 14:58:24

All washing machines are cunningly designed to go bugger-up when they are precisely 3 years old, and even more cunningly just when you get back off holiday, with 4 suitcases full of dirty laundry. Fact.

OneMoreChap Tue 23-Oct-12 15:16:09

Printers is, indeed, all bastards, but at least they are cheap bastards.
It's the ink what is expensive

jonnycox Tue 23-Oct-12 16:41:11

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

WereTricksPotter Tue 23-Oct-12 16:43:21

I'd Bwahahahahahahaha! if that wasn't so pathetic.

PosieParker Tue 23-Oct-12 16:44:03

Jonny Cock. Wow OP is really lucky because after her husband perved over young women he came home....Praise be and thank the mighty Lord, he came home.

Keep your men sisters, promise a strip and fuck the minute he comes through the door.

PosieParker Tue 23-Oct-12 16:44:42

Hi Beer Were!

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 23-Oct-12 16:46:13

Jonnycox hmm

have reported your post for advertising your book - judging from your post, its probably a load of crap.

The exchange of money means he is buying sexual services and therefore he thinks women are there to be purchased for his own pleasure.

You have also insulted OP in insinuating she must be lacking for him to go looking.

MmeLindor Tue 23-Oct-12 16:50:35

Can I just warn those posting on this (and other threads on similar topics) that I saw a blog linked to on twitter quoting a thread about a DH's porn habit. It wasn't this thread but it seems to have brought the relationship board to the attention of people who would not normally post here (like mr author Jonny)

This could bring trolls or lurkers, so do think about how much personal and identifiable information you share.

OP
All the best

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 16:54:02

Good call, MMeL

Hullygully Tue 23-Oct-12 16:55:14

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WereTricksPotter Tue 23-Oct-12 16:57:06

I guess he'd have to be, hully. With that attitude.

Hi Posie, long time no see smile

PosieParker Tue 23-Oct-12 17:08:09

grin I had a drama free, flounce free, break.

jonnycox Tue 23-Oct-12 17:09:31

Some fairly vitriolic responses there, ladies. An earler post suggested that strip clubs are an infringement of marriage vows but it works both ways; you all made vows too. So, yes, Posie Parker, welcome your man home; why not?

And Cox is my real name. What can I do?

WereTricksPotter Tue 23-Oct-12 17:14:00

My vows missed out the bit about lurking by the front door in my nightie playing tammy Wynette songs. Phew! Lucky ole me!

Babyrabbits Tue 23-Oct-12 17:18:42

I've been to one....out of couriosity ( with male collegues once) god those women are physically fit. I had a private dane. I found the whole experience very interesting .

I won't go back but i wouldn't be overly upset if my H had been on a stag do. If he went with a friend well i'd be upset really why did he go?

They are dancers not prostitutes.

PosieParker Tue 23-Oct-12 17:21:37

Is your first name really "sucks dirty?" And do fuck off with your fucking backward and frankly misogynistic crap.

Lap dancing is a hideous addition to most towns and cities, it increasing sexual crimes against women at the very least, as well as being the gateway for many women to years of sex work.

Fintan Tue 23-Oct-12 17:23:13

baby did she stick her crotch in your face or do they save that move just for the male customers

jonnycox Tue 23-Oct-12 17:25:13

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jonnycox Tue 23-Oct-12 17:26:53

But I couldn't resist that, Fintan. I went to a club with my wife once and the dancer did stick her boobs in my wife's face.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Tue 23-Oct-12 17:26:57

Jonnycock and his ilk serve a useful function. Whenever anyone suggests to you that you ought not to be so "uptight" and tolerate, nay welcome, your partner's use of paid sexual services, you can reimnd yourself that if you did that you would end up with the sort of man who thinks "inadvertinently" is a real English word.
And nobody wants that.

PosieParker Tue 23-Oct-12 17:27:04

Wife? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Fintan Tue 23-Oct-12 17:33:45

I didn't ask you, Cock, I asked BabyRabbits. But thanks so much for sharing, the image of a man getting a girl to stick her tits in another woman's face, for money at that, has put me off my afternoon wedge of Victoria Sandwich, thereby saving me several hundred calories.

Fintan Tue 23-Oct-12 17:34:08

grin KKK

Babyrabbits Tue 23-Oct-12 17:41:26

She danced suggestively, i suppose she did wiggle her crotch at me and certainly had her nipples close to my face.

In all honesty she mad me feel like i was entirely her focus. I enjoyed it, it wasn't seedy, was very very expensive. ( not that i paid)

It was interesting and a fun night out ( cocktails probably helped) i was transfixed by how well they could dane and how strong they are on the pole.

All so long ago now..long before children when i worked in the city and wore a five inch heel!

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 23-Oct-12 17:47:18

I think we have had an invasion of twats from grunternet hmm everytime we have one of these threads, a klaxon goes off there...

Fintan Tue 23-Oct-12 17:54:58

I agree, Mad things have been very strange around here this afternoon, and not just this thread.

That's interesting Baby, sounds like you didn't get the full private service.

olgaga Tue 23-Oct-12 18:17:05

And Cox is my real name

Yeah - so is Ben Dover.

Babyrabbits Tue 23-Oct-12 18:53:44

Lol maybe not :-)

Viviennemary Tue 23-Oct-12 19:10:59

'Lap dancers not prostitutes.' They are women of the night however you want to dress it up to be acceptable. Earning a living from the sex industry. It's not acceptable.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Tue 23-Oct-12 19:18:17

"women of the night" there is a quaint phrase.
It may very well be that neither occupation is considered respectable but I'm a lot more interested in stigmatising the demand side of the transaction, given the supply side may not have a huge number of other options.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 19:20:04

I would be more likely to say the users of the sex industry have "something of the night" about them

and I'm not talking the sexy vampire that is Brad Pitt smile

jonnycox Tue 23-Oct-12 20:27:23

So, it is not acceptable for men to watch strippers but it is okay for women to look at Brad Pitt's bum when he forgets to put his armour on?

Viviennemary Tue 23-Oct-12 20:28:57

Brad Pitt doesn't count. He's a film star. grin

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 20:34:11

I have never seen Brad Pitt's naked bum. Have you, John ? Sorry , Jonny ?

PosieParker Tue 23-Oct-12 21:08:38

Does Brad Pitt have a strip club? Gosh you learn something new everyday.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 21:15:37

He had a Fight Club. Not sure that's the same thing, though.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Tue 23-Oct-12 21:31:16

Perhaps Brad has shown his bum inadvertinently. That makes it perfectly acceptable, doesn't it Jonny.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Tue 23-Oct-12 21:34:31

oh yes, inadvertinently

that's the best way

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Tue 23-Oct-12 23:19:31

Is that a mixture of inadvertently and incontinently?

<boak>

jonnycox Wed 24-Oct-12 10:10:49

Keep leaning on a spelling mistake, ladies, you obviously need a moral crutch.

Hullygully Wed 24-Oct-12 10:11:51

ladies.

That is an odd term of address.

How can a spelling mistake be a moral crutch?

WereTricksPotter Wed 24-Oct-12 10:17:35

Gentlemen,

A moral crutch is one that doesn't wander into a lapdancing bar citing 'peer pressure', 'it's what men do, innit?', 'just a bit of fun', 'the young girls do it because they like it'.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 24-Oct-12 10:19:06

Can you get moral crutches on the NHS, or do you need BUPA?

olgaga Wed 24-Oct-12 11:41:03

Which is of course entirely different from the moral crotch, which can be found on display to the sweaty, lecherous, inadequate, drunken deadbeat losers who frequent lapdancing clubs.

sweaty, lecherous, inadequate, drunken deadbeat losers

wow - I've been called a lot of things in my life, but never a drunken deadbeat. Or do those insults only apply to men?

I'm always struck on these threads, by how many women see fit to judge with no personal experience themselves. Talk to the women, go to the clubs. If you come out with the same opinion you went in with, at least it will be an informed opinion.

olgaga Wed 24-Oct-12 12:43:37

Talk to the women

Some of them have written whole books about it.

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/nov/10/truth-lap-dancer-clubs

MmeLindor Wed 24-Oct-12 12:44:18

Hmm. Let me examine that comparison.

Brad Pitt, earns gazillions, calls the shots on which film he stars in (or produces), jets around the world with his superstar wife and a legion of nannies. Admired by millions for his charitable work.

Stripper in dingy club, earns pittance, is abused by customers and staff, lives in a tiny flat. Has to lie to family about her job.

It's not the ogling (ie. silly women being jealous of their husbands looking at other women).

It's the plight of the women who work in the sex industry, many of whom are abused and prostituted while others pocket the profits.

Comparing them to a millionaire superstar is laughable.

olgaga - there are also books out there detailing positive experiences too. I'm not going to discount anybody's negative experience - they didn't like it and found it demeaning. That's their experience. I've spoken to others who have had a more positive experience.

When I say "talk" I mean just that: face-to-face talking, so you can see all the nuances of non-verbal communication.

larrygrylls Wed 24-Oct-12 13:00:12

"www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/nov/10/truth-lap-dancer-clubs "

Have read this and it is highly anecdotal. One of the only proper surveys (the only one I can find) on this is the below:

http://www.sociology.leeds.ac.uk/assets/files/research/events/PreliminaryMediaAug2010.pdf

Among the conclusions:

"Education: All of the dancers had some education and had finished school with some qualifications. 87% had completed at least Further Education, while 25% had completed an undergraduate degree. Just over one third of dancers were students. 31% of dancers were currently in some form of education, making students a significant proportion of dancers. 3.8% were taking further education courses, 13.9% were using dancing to help fund an undergraduate degree and 6.3% for a postgraduate degree

Job satisfaction amongst dancers was strikingly high. Asked to score their job satisfaction from 0 to 10 with 10 being the highest, a significant proportion (84.4%) rated their satisfaction above five and only 5.3% rated their satisfaction

Respect: Dancers were also asked how respected they felt within the workplace. This time, the majority (59.2%) were neutral, stating that they neither felt respected nor disrespected. Despite this neutrality, significantly more dancers said that they felt Respected or Very Respected (33.8%) than Disrespected or Very Disrespected (7%).at less than five."

In the interests of balance, it is far from all rosy and Leeds University published their comments on all the positive comments received in the media here:

http://www.sociology.leeds.ac.uk/about/news/lap-dancers-degrees.php

The chief negative commentary is below:

"Dancers told Dr Teela Sanders and Kate Hardy about unsafe working conditions, lack of insurance, inconsistency of income and fines or high fees in some clubs. The reports also tended to disguise the profound variations between the standards and management in different clubs. Researchers found some clubs were well run but others were significantly more dangerous or exploitative.

This important research was funded by the Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC) and involved a survey of 300 dancers, and interviews with workers, industry management and regulators. "

Of course this was a survey of 300 dancers (better than anecdote, though) and maybe, to some extent, they were self selected. However as a reputable survey by two academics and peer reviewed, I assume they attempted to balance for this.

The reality is that, whist some in the industry may be exploited, in reputable clubs, the majority are clearly not.

WereTricksPotter Wed 24-Oct-12 13:04:21

So that would be women still working in the industry, in need of the job and knowing the management were included, thus being identifiable <laughs>

larrygrylls Wed 24-Oct-12 13:07:43

Why on earth would you assume the survey was not anonymised before dismissing it crudely (<laughs>)? I would assume the interviews would have been in private, spread across several clubs and anonymised.

How can you dismiss proper academic research so frivolously? Nothing to do with it coming to the "wrong" conclusions of course...

WereTricksPotter Wed 24-Oct-12 13:13:07

Oh, spread across several clubs. That's top secret then. Never find out who said what and sack them, would they?hmm

Truly anonymised or not, it doesn't alter the fact that only pathetic inadequate sheep tend to go to lapdancing bars, imo.

larrygrylls Wed 24-Oct-12 13:16:30

WereTricksPotter,

Well, that is a matter of personal opinion but has nothing to do with the survey I cited nor the Guardian article nor a lot of people's objections to do with most dancers being exploited.

When I went (90s mainly), I did not know of anyone male (and a fair few females) in the City who did not occasionally go. I guess we may all have been pathetic inadequate sheep but that would be an awful lot of fairly successful men and women of an ovine persuasion.

.....and now I'm a pathetic inadequate sheep.

Nice.

MmeLindor Wed 24-Oct-12 13:18:29

I can't open the links on my phone but will say that the important part of that is that some clubs treated their staff well and some didn't.

The issue is that if I were to work in a shop and my manager was a prick, then I would have ways of sorting it our (complain to HR, take company to court, leave the company ...)

The women in the 'bad' clubs would often not have any options. If they were already so desperate that this was the only job they could find, they can't just leave. Who should they complain to? They might be frightened of protesting in case it led to more abuse.

WereTricksPotter Wed 24-Oct-12 13:21:44

We're back to "Oh loads of people go!" As if that makes it reasonable to use women's bodies as part of a good night out. If that isn't the definition of ovine then I'm not sure what is.

larrygrylls Wed 24-Oct-12 13:25:08

MmeLindor,

I think you are making a lot of very positive assumptions about every business that is not involved in lap dancing. I suspect a lot of retail outlets, especially smaller ones have no HR, do not employ unionised staff and would be very hard to "take to court" by your average worker with zero free cashflow. And, as for leaving the shop, they may have no other options either.

I suspect the places I went to were the top of the lapdancing foodchain in that they were in Central London and generally expensive household names. I am sure there is a far tawdrier side to the business. However, the fact that some people are exploited is not a reason to kill an entire industry.

I am actually quite sympathetic, having read all the arguments, of trying to end lapdancing based on its pervasive influence of men's attitudes, especially younger men. On the other hand, while it is still going on and normalised, I do think that, on an individual basis, someone should not be too badly judged for going very occasionally with friends to a reputable establishment. They are most likely dealing with people in it for the money and perfectly comfortable with their choice. On that basis, it is what it is; slightly tawdry but not the end of the World.

carmenelectra Wed 24-Oct-12 14:00:36

daddancer. I'm ok with porn and watch it myself from time to time. Lap dancing is completely different as it is interaacting with a real life person. And getting turned on, so is webcamming.

larrygrylls, I don't think I set a low bar for dealbreakers in my relationship. No cheating. I.e sex or intimacy of some description, paid or otherwise. Or paying to interact with women online. Lapdancing I'm a bit mixed on. Wouldn't be too fussed if it was a one off and no private dance. Though I'd hope he would think going in the first place would be tacky and a waste of money

I don't have to discuss this with my dp as I would think he would be dim if he didn't think these things were dealbreakers. Just as I'd expect him to think it was a dealbreaker if I did any of the above.

Of course he is quite free to do what he likesbut he wouldn't be in a relationship with me. He freely entered a committed relationship with me and being in such a relationship means getting a sexual thrill from paying for nude dances is disrespectful at the very least.

madonnawhore Wed 24-Oct-12 14:04:53

Larry that research you've cited is flawed.

All the strippers and sex workers they asked were currently working as strippers and sex workers at the time they took part in the research. There was no adjustment made for the cognitive dissonance that happens when you do a job that you know on some level is impacting your personal boundaries, your emotional health and all at the expense of your private, intimate life. They have to tell themselves they enjoy it and they're fine with it.

If you look at research done on EX strippers and sex workers, once they're out of the industry entirely, the evidence tells a very different story and an overwhelming number admit that they hated it at the time but wouldn't admit it to themselves.

There's even been research done on how this sort of cognitive dissonance skews research on topics like this.

I would give you citations but I'm at work and not even supposed to be MNing right now <guilty face>.

I just had to post this.

larrygrylls Wed 24-Oct-12 14:11:01

Madonna,

Appreciate you prob don't have the time, at least until later. However, if and when you get a chance, I would be curious to read the research on ex lap dancers. I think it has to be done on ex lap dancers rather than ex strippers or prostitutes, or any other sub category of the sex or "exotic" entertainment business. See where you are coming from in your cognitive dissonance argument, though (having recently read the Kahneman book smile.

If there is a reputable study which undermines the one I have cited, I will have to accept it. However, it has to be a proper rigorous academic study, not something anecdotal such as the article written in the Guardian.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 24-Oct-12 14:11:22

I don't agree with Larry about the employment rights - I read an article where the women are 'self employed' rather that being employed by the club directly - so they don't have the same rights as a shop worker. They have to pay 'rental', 'costume hire' and such like.

As for thinking lap dancing clubs are normalised - well they're not are they? Or there wouldn't be so many threads on mn like this one. Saying that 'everyone you knew in the city went occasionally' does not mean it's normalised. I worked in the city too, and several of my relatives still do. I have worked with colleagues who frequented these places - only men I might add - and let's just say they were a certain 'type' of man that I avoid like the plague. The type that think it's 'a laugh' to pay women for sleazy sexual services. Not all men are like that.

larrygrylls Wed 24-Oct-12 14:27:21

Sabrina,

The men I went with have included some of the most gentlemanly individuals who worship their wives and would consider themselves to be (and in my eyes are) 100% faithful. They would not have ever considered any implications of their behaviour beyond being convivial with colleagues. I suspect some may have regarded it as more of a work obligation than a pleasure. They had very strict lines (as did I, although I was mainly single in that period) of no private dances and just drinking and chatting with everyone together.

I don't know when you worked in the City. For me, although I worked until 2008, I only really went to lapdancing places in the 90s. The craze did peter out as HR departments clamped down on them and more and more females came into trading departments. I don't know what is normal now wrt lapdancing. However, I have been there on nights where the whole trading desk went along, 5-6 guys. I think statistically it is highly unlikely that all of them were of a "certain type", as well as it not being the case in my judgment (which you will argue is skewed, so that is a bit circular, hence my use of statistics).

This is the male experience of what lapdancing is, especially as it was when I went. It is easy to dismiss as "decent males wouldn't", "most men are not like that" etc. However, that is not my experienced reality. The men who went were normal, well adjusted, with plenty of female friends etc and I am sure that the majority of the people here who are very anti will include among their trusted male friends some who have been lapdancing but are not going to shout about it. Would that change your perception of them 180 degrees?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 24-Oct-12 14:44:21

Mmm, you're playing down the realities of a lapdancing bar now, Larry, as places where 'gentlemen' go - a gentlemen's club, perhaps? - I can almost hear the creak of wood pannelling and the gentle rustle of newspaper in your description confused

The reality that I am aware of is that lapdancing clubs are not full of 'gentlemen' who respect their wives. The men I know who frequented these places did most certainly not respect their wives/girlfriends. I worked in London, in banking/finance in the mid 90's to early 2000's. My sisters still work in the city now.

And yes, it would (and has) changed my perception of people if I knew they went to these clubs. Very much so. Including a male relative of mine. Because it means they accept women's bodies can be bought to have a good leer over in a bar.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 24-Oct-12 15:00:32

"Gentlemen" who "worship" their wives but think nothing of supporting the sex industry?.... in my opinion have massively ingrained Madonna/Whore complexes.

They see the women who provide these services as "other" and the women in their own family circle as the only "real" ones deserving of respect. They would be the ones likely to blow a gasket would their own sister, mother or daughter become one of the "those" type of women.

It's paternalistic, patronising and patriarchal bollocks at it's absolute best.

larrygrylls Wed 24-Oct-12 15:04:55

Sabrina,

"Because it means they accept women's bodies can be bought to have a good leer over in a bar."

For most people "buying a body" implies prostitution. In most decent lapdancing bars the women keep their underwear on. So, it is buying a chat and/or dance with a topless woman.

Where do you draw the line? Is it the sexual element or the fact that a body is comoditised? What about hotels or designer clothes boutiques which only employ attractive young staff (there are plenty of both)? What about artists' models? In both cases you are buying the use of another human being's body but I guess you would find it less objectionable. Or do you find any position where someone is paid more for their body than their mind unacceptable?

larrygrylls Wed 24-Oct-12 15:09:23

"They would be the ones likely to blow a gasket would their own sister, mother or daughter become one of the "those" type of women."

Absolutely untrue. I don't think anyone I know would have labelled lapdancers as a "type". They all had different motivations for dancing. In the Tokyo scene in particular, I knew several traders who dated and married lapdancers.

I have sons, not daughters and I would not be particularly proud were they to become the male equivalents. However, I would feel exactly the same should they become a whole load of professions which I won't name for fear of offending some. We all want our children to grow up into highly successful graduates, ideally doctors or something like that. It won't happen for all of us. That is completely different to making the moral and sexist judgment you are assuming.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 24-Oct-12 15:14:53

I draw the line at sleazy lapdancing clubs, larry.

You are buying a drink and chat with a topless or naked girl - wow, what class. What a gentleman you are.

OneMoreChap Wed 24-Oct-12 15:19:48

... DD served drinks in an "exotic" bar overseas.
I wasn't happy about it, and less so when she said she'd thought about dancing.

Mostly, I think she's too trusting, and thinks men on the whole aren't predatory. I agree with her, but I think there are enough about to be cautious.

In the end, she said decided not to, because she liked the craic at the bar better, I suspect.

I'd hope she wouldn't become a prostitute, but so do many fathers, whose DD do. I think she has too many other interests, and values herself a bit too much - although some sex workers also say they value themselves... an xgf certainly did.

larrygrylls Wed 24-Oct-12 15:21:19

"You are buying a drink and chat with a topless or naked girl - wow, what class. What a gentleman you are."

As if you have never dressed up to go out and accepted a drink from a man in a bar in return for a few minutes of your time. Or been bought dinner by a man who found you attractive and dressed up for the occasion, maybe in something skimpy. Same transaction really.

Man exchanges money for time with attractive woman...hold the press.

Some of the posts on here have given me pause for thought. Mainly the ones about the culture around lapdancing etc. However, your bland thoughtless judgmentalism just makes me wheeze.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 24-Oct-12 15:34:51

And now we know, without asking, what Larry's view of the institution of marriage is smile

larrygrylls Wed 24-Oct-12 15:39:29

Happy,

No, you don't and I am sure, even you, in your youth, have accepted drinks or meals in return for your company. It does not mean that, later in life, you might not even have bought a good looking man dinner. And it has zero implications for the basis on which you married for the first and, in your case, second time.

Let's try to keep this discussion about what it is, rather than your normal ad hominem attacks. They are ceasing even to amuse (wishes there was an ignore button).

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 24-Oct-12 15:45:02

Married, in your case, for the second time ?

What are you talking about, Larry ?

PosieParker Wed 24-Oct-12 15:56:44

"Accepted drinks and food for your company?" What?

MmeLindor Wed 24-Oct-12 15:58:07

Again you are comparing apples with pears.

If in my youth (ha) I accepted a drink from a guy at a bar, I did so of my own free will, with no feeling of being obliged to spend the rest of the evening with him - If I found him boring, I would not stay there and speak to him any longer. If he were to grope me or insult me, I could walk away or complain about him.

HUGE difference between that an working in a bar where the expectation is that I would (in exchange for money) give my time to a man. If he were to grope or insult me, then I would have little or no recourse, depending on the type of bar.

If you cannot see the difference, then hell, I don't even know what we are talking about.

UltraBOF Wed 24-Oct-12 16:01:08

Have you got a husband under the patio you've neglected to mention, HappyHalloweenMotherFucker? grin

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 24-Oct-12 16:03:30

Perhaps Larry is one of those men who buy women's company via drinks in bars with an expectation that they should get "something" for their investment.

That's the only way his comments make sense to me.

Mind you, now I am "old" and "on my second marriage", my opinions don't matter all that much and my time is valued even less

I wonder if I would even merit the outlay of a glass of tap water these days....

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 24-Oct-12 16:06:45

BOF, I think now I'm in my dotage I must have simply forgotten about the first one

I have missed a trick and haven't extracted the maximum amount of monetary value out of it smile

Viviennemary Wed 24-Oct-12 16:10:24

It's all a matter of opinion. I happen to think lap dancing clubs are sleazy, the people who work in them are sleazy and the people who frequent them are even sleazier. If people want to think they are fine well I suppose that's up to them.

PosieParker Wed 24-Oct-12 16:12:01

Happy.... you must be entirely irrelevant if you are 'old'. So shhh there's a dear, let's not allow these silly women to think with age comes wisdom and experience only saggy tits and grey hair are the gains of ageing women.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 24-Oct-12 16:21:43

I am almost invisible, Posie sad

carmenelectra Wed 24-Oct-12 16:26:20

happyhalloween has it spot on. Menwho frequent lapdancing clubs and 'worship their wives' almost certainly have a madonna /whore complex. Especially middle aged men who claim to adore their wives, but in actual fact prefer to ogle twenty something women. Yuck.

I have accepted a drink off a man many a time. I have always had my top on.

A man mingling with topless girls and having a chat is quite yuck. And the man must be a right div knowing the girl is only chatting cos he spending his money.

PosieParker Wed 24-Oct-12 16:26:48

sad

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 24-Oct-12 16:38:24

It's ok, Posie. Don't be sad for me. I am quite happy to no longer figure in some men's consciousness at all wink

larrygrylls Wed 24-Oct-12 16:39:13

"Perhaps Larry is one of those men who buy women's company via drinks in bars with an expectation that they should get "something" for their investment."

Sorry? So, none of you have ever been bought a drink in a bar? And, yes, there is the normal quid pro quo in that it is extremely rude to accept a drink and then not at least chat for a few minutes to the person that has bought it for you. So, I guess I expect(ed) "something" in return for the drink.

Are you really going to pretend that the above never happens or that there is something wrong with it? Posie? You seem to think this never happens. Or do you think you are being bought the drink and you have zero obligation even to chat for five mins to the buyer of the drink?

"I have accepted a drink off a man many a time. I have always had my top on. "

The initial buying of that drink is nearly always based on physical rather than intellectual attraction (if you don't know the buyer). Where do you draw the line? Skimpy, fine, topless yuck. You are still buying into a system where you have obtained something based purely on how you look.

It strains credulity that people don't recognise the above happens in every bar every night of the year.

HeftyHeifer Wed 24-Oct-12 16:39:59

The men I went with have included some of the most gentlemanly individuals who worship their wives and would consider themselves to be (and in my eyes are) 100% faithful. They would not have ever considered any implications of their behaviour beyond being convivial with colleagues. I suspect some may have regarded it as more of a work obligation than a pleasure. They had very strict lines (as did I, although I was mainly single in that period) of no private dances and just drinking and chatting with everyone together.

----------------------------------------------------

and there we have it. angry
The "we're all in this together" shite that men do. Men sticking together and protecting each other's sleaziness.
This is the bullshit that I for one have had enough of hearing. Of course this is what you tell women because it's in your (males as a whole) interest for us women to be treated like dumb bitches so you can try to cover up the reality of what happens when you're all being boys together.

PosieParker Wed 24-Oct-12 16:45:06

I've only once accepted a drink from a stranger, it was in a private members bar in Soho. He thought he was a hot shot meeja type and proceeded to say pretty disgusting things to me as he followed me up some stairs. I was incredibly quick, witty and rude which silenced him. He came over later and apologised, offered me "any drink at te bar" and threw me the wine list "order a bottle" so I did. A cool vintage Krug....

Did I chat to him? No.
Did I sit with him? No.

I shared it with my friends and told him to fuck off.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 24-Oct-12 16:47:42

Larry, your posts make my skin crawl. There is absolutely a difference between you buying a drink in a bar for a woman and going to a lapdancing club.

You have no idea how I behave in bars. I don't actually accept drinks from strangers in bars - and never have - but that's beside the point. It is not the same to buy a drink for a woman in a bar (a fellow customer, on an equal footing to you) and buying services from a topless dancer in a lapdancing club.

You are kidding yourself.

larrygrylls Wed 24-Oct-12 16:48:21

Posie,

I am not sure why you are boasting of your materialistic greed and the fact that you were extremely rude to someone who proferred you an apology for their behaviour.

Well done for the stealth boast re the "members bar in Soho" and the "vintage Krug", though.

QuickLookBusy Wed 24-Oct-12 16:53:37

Larry you cannot justify going to a lap dance club. However much you try.

You have to realise, visiting these places does mark you out as a sleaze. You may imagine its all ok and that most right thinking people accept it, but you need to realise most right thinking people don't accept it.

You need to get away form thinking about yourself and how it's just a drink and a night out. No, it's a drink and a night out in a room with women you don't know, walking around almost naked, trying to encourage you to sit down so they can put their breasts and arses in your face. And you do not know whether those women are there of their own accord or if they have been trafficked and abused/exploited.

That is not a normal night out.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 24-Oct-12 16:53:47

Larry, are you going to explain your attempted dig at my "second marriage"?

Malificence Wed 24-Oct-12 16:53:59

How predictable, the same utter bollocks from the same couple of posters over and over again, they think they're soo clever, being all reasonable but underneath the wafer-thin veneer they're just common or garden misogynists parading as decent human beings.
I'm glad Larry has no daughters and can only hope his sons are nothing like him.

WereTricksPotter Wed 24-Oct-12 16:55:48

Do men who have to pay to see a pair of breasts not feel ever so slightly demeaned? You wouldn't get to see them otherwise. I find that totally pathetic.

larrygrylls Wed 24-Oct-12 17:02:28

Malificence,

"I'm glad Larry has no daughters and can only hope his sons are nothing like him. "

Totally pathetic and nasty ad hominem attack on innocent toddlers (ever so thinly disguised as an attack on me). This kind of post is beyond the pail IMO and marks the poster out as not a very nice person.

I guess to get malificence by a poster who styles herself by that name is hardly surprising. The eponymous Malificence...has a nice ring to it.

larrygrylls Wed 24-Oct-12 17:03:59

Happy,

To anyone else, I would apologise but it was a genuine mistake based on conclusions from what you have posted in the past. To you, though, who have termed me a "wife abuser" amongst other choice phrases in posts which have been deleted from contravening the rules, I offer no apology. You give it out, you can take it.

If you want it removed, report it.

MmeLindor Wed 24-Oct-12 17:05:50

I have been trying to remember if I have been bought a drink by a man, other when we have been out in a crowd and someone has bought a round. I don't think so (and since meeting my DH at age 19yo, I would not have accepted since, because it would have insinuated by my acceptance that I was interested in furthering the acquaintance.

So in that you are correct, Larry, that a man who buys a woman a drink does so because he expects a chat, and perhaps more to develop.

How that equates with topless bars, i really don't know. Can you not see how ridiculous the comparison is?

It is like me standing in M&S and a woman asking 'Does my bum look big in this?'. As a customer, I could be as direct as I wanted to be, 'Well, now you ask me, I think you are blocking the sun'.

If I was an employee of M&S, I would gently steer the woman to a more flattering outfit.

The analogy only works if M&S routinely abuse and exploit their staff though.

Malificence Wed 24-Oct-12 17:06:58

No, I'm not a nice person, not to pathetic creepy men anyway.
You do realise that you make our collective skins crawl, Larry? Is that what you get off on?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 24-Oct-12 17:09:57

Yes, Mal, I think it is. <puke>

PosieParker Wed 24-Oct-12 17:11:10

I'm at a loss Larry as to why it was boasting? The guy said vulgar and hideous things to me and I made him pay, isn't that the sort of woman you like. Except your exchange would have been the other way around.

The guy talked about sitting on his face and rubbing his cock with my tits.... how much is the going rate nowadays for that.

Now had he walked into a lap dancing club and paid £140 in Spearmint Rhino, what would he have got?

MmeLindor Wed 24-Oct-12 17:12:13

Can I remind everyone not to post direct insults against individual posters on this thread.

I don't want anyone banned because they are being honest and truthful.

HeftyHeifer Wed 24-Oct-12 17:14:23

grin Lindor

Badvoc Wed 24-Oct-12 17:18:36

These men have to pay to see a woman's labia.
They are to be pitied IMHO.
I wonder if these men could hear the internal monologue in these girls minds as they dance for them, what they would think then?
Do they actually imagine the women feel anything other than revulsion, disgust and contempt for them?
Deeply sad.

QuickLookBusy Wed 24-Oct-12 17:23:50

I agree with you Badvoc and IMO that is what makes a man who visits these places the men to avoid.

Who would want to be in a relationship with a man who is so deluded and so incredibly thick?

Badvoc Wed 24-Oct-12 17:30:48

Yep.
Can you imagine?
A fat sweaty dead eyed drunk probably balding man leering over a young woman and thinking - actually really believing - she enjoys it or that he would have any chance at all if he weren't paying her!!
Bluergh.....

Malificence Wed 24-Oct-12 17:49:11

As for the assumption that visiting these sex establishments is a normal/common activity, I asked DH how many men he knows that have gone to strip clubs, in 30 years ( 12 of them being in the RAF) and hundreds of men, in 7 different jobs, he can think of perhaps half a dozen, so really not common at all, they were all universally condemned as being "sad gits" too
( by other men ).
I'll have to ask 22 year old DD how many men she knows have visited them.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 24-Oct-12 17:50:24

I wasn't looking for an apology, Larry, nor your post deleted.

I was just wondering why you have inferred a few sentences on here that I, personally, am "on my second marriage"

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 24-Oct-12 17:50:59

Inferred by

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 24-Oct-12 17:53:07

Inferred from gah

carmenelectra Wed 24-Oct-12 19:48:12

larry I'm perfectly happy if a man buys me a drink because he finds me pretty or fun. Its not so he can have a closer inspection of my fanny.

Well, it might be, but it wouldn't be on display in the first place.

Actually when men have bought me a drink in the past its usually after they have chatted for a while- 'oh would you like a drink'. And I. Have walked away without giving them anything. I can't be bought for a drink.

madonnawhore Wed 24-Oct-12 20:13:31

The grossest thing about lap dancing bars is that men are paying women to pretend to be sexually into something they're not really into.

And I think the only men who are able to suspend their disbelief to that extent are the ones who don't give a shit about what that woman is actually feeling about the situation.

I'd find it so cringey to pay money to someone and then watch them act like they were 'really into getting naked for me' or whatever. When I know, and she/knows that I know that they're really not.

Offred Wed 24-Oct-12 20:15:13

There's no difference between buying a drink for a woman in a bar... For larry...

That's because I suspect larry thinks men buy women.

Larry also seems to think women show breasts or dress up in order to tempt men to buy them...

And again with the jibes about marriage larry... Anyone would think you judged a woman entirely on her ability to get and keep a man... <shrug> but then I know that can't be true...hmm

madonnawhore Wed 24-Oct-12 20:15:27

Should have read: she/he knows.

madonnawhore Wed 24-Oct-12 20:20:10

Okay.

1. No one owes anyone fuck all in return for a poxy drink. Least of all sex. Jesus Christ, if that's what passes for seduction in some men's minds then I really do despair.

2. Just to clear this up once and for all; women with healthy self esteem dress for themselves. I wear nice clothes and do my hair and make up nicely because the most important thing is that I fancy myself. Fuck what anyone else thinks.

Offred Wed 24-Oct-12 20:21:19

I wouldn't accept a drink off a stranger btw, that'd be very stupid because they are normally sent buy men who feel that drink buys your attention and that is one thin end of a pretty offensive abusive wedge (which begins with chatting and ends with a rape which is defended by "she didn't say no" etc). If I did accept a drink from such a man I would actively seek to drink it and NOT to speak to him because he would thoroughly deserve it for even contemplating that he could buy me in any way.

Offred Wed 24-Oct-12 20:24:26

Also agree it is not common or normal to go to lapdancing clubs. If it were it would lose its titillation as a stag trip. I know one person who has ever visited one.

Offred Wed 24-Oct-12 20:25:30

And I bet larry would call me a bitch or a slag or a prick tease for accepting his drink and not considering myself bought and paid for.

PosieParker Wed 24-Oct-12 20:29:05

I know a company, of mainly men but some women, where they have TBT (Tit Bar Thursday). I kid you not.

HeftyHeifer Wed 24-Oct-12 20:34:41

Not sure about it losing its titillation as a stag trip. By that logic men would only go out and get shit faced vomiting drunk when they go out on a stag do.
Lapdancing clubs are doing better on our High Streets than shops. Shops are closing down all the time. Lapdancing clubs are springing up everywhere.. There's a huge market for them.

What is needed is for ALL women to know the truth about what goes on in them. I'm tired of being told I'm 'just insecure' or 'jealous of the young women' when I raise objections.
All women need to know that this is not 'harmless fun' where all that happens is that the girls do a bit of a disco dance with their breasts on show.
We also need to get rid of the 'lap dance club' euphemism because doesn't that sound more respectable than 'strip club' ? To some ears at least...

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 24-Oct-12 20:37:13

Larry's viewpoint is reminiscent of the p*unternetters when we were last invaded. They see any relationship/marriage as 'what the woman can get out of the man' - and sex being something a woman 'gives' to a man in return for gifts/marriage/a home. They essentially reduce any relationship down to a transaction.

I think anyone who holds these views - and Larry's posts on here about 'women wearing skimpy outfits to get bought dinner' and the like were particularly abhorrent - has never experienced an equal, loving relationship. After all, they think women are things to be bought - be it in a lap dancing club or a brothel.

Offred Wed 24-Oct-12 20:37:25

Men don't get shit faced drunk on stag dos for titillation though, alcohol is a drug, they drink for the effects of the drug and to out do the other men on pathetic displays of manliness. Totally different thing.

kerrymumbles Wed 24-Oct-12 20:41:20

Off to Tool Academy for him...

kerrymumbles Wed 24-Oct-12 20:42:42

look at it this way. at least he told you. next time he won't.

Offred Wed 24-Oct-12 20:47:13

Is that a first in the not reading the thread stakes; someone not even reading the op?!

PosieParker Wed 24-Oct-12 20:56:29
HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 24-Oct-12 21:00:35

I have said it before, I will say it again.

Groups of men "displaying" their sexuality in front of each other in this way has it's roots in latent homosexuality and their denial surrounding that.

"Look at me, I am so hetero, I can pay a bird to suck her tits behind a curtain, watched by Security"

Yeah, you are so horny mate!"

< ahem >

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Wed 24-Oct-12 21:01:28

gosh, kerry, haven't seen your man-pleasing ways around here for a while smile

kerrymumbles Wed 24-Oct-12 23:17:44

man pleasing?

tee hee

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 08:26:42

I don't think it is all about latent homosexuality as I've said before grin but also about dissociative sex without intimacy, entitlement and viewing sexual relationships as a financial transaction, believing in the old stereotype of women not enjoying sex (and therefore men not needing to care about their enjoyment) and needing gifts in order to endure it, men having "needs" which they must have satisfied.

I think the idea of consent (legally) is misunderstood by a lot of people - it means agreement by choice. Someone may agree by choice to work in the sex industry although often those choices are influenced by other factors and even if you do choose it of your own free will, the fact you are being paid to work in the sex industry means you cannot actually really consent to sex acts. Fundamentally to enjoy porn or lapdancing or prostitution you have to ignore or not care that consent is not important in that sexual experience. Sometimes the way that is done is by pretending it is "all a bit of fun".

This is why I think porn use, especially uneducated porn use, is bad because it is often a person's first experience of sex and is entirely one sided, entirely dissociated from intimacy and shared enjoyment. If people mistakenly learn "techniques" from porn it creates bad or abusive sex, you cannot learn good sex from watching porn, good sex is about chemistry and intuition not "techniques". Porn also often plays to the competitive target culture that men are taught and leads to this ridiculous "getting your gf to do xyz" behaviour too.

Lapdancing bars are an extension of all that I think, they are about getting women to degrade themselves for men so that men can either be aroused, ignore or laugh at it.

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 09:04:33

Happy,

You are in full fantasy mode re latent homosexuality.

Do you think gorillas are displaying their latent homosexuality when they have sex in front of peers? Nope, they are demonstrating they are the ultimate silver back, the alpha male of the pack. To assume humans are, at base, so different, is to completely overstimate the pace of evolution. In addition, privacy is a relatively modern concept. People had sex in the same room as their children until a few hundred years ago [gasp...all those parental abusers!].

Men buy women's time and, increasingly, women buy men's time and sexual favours. It may not be as overt as in a lapdancing bars but plenty of relationships are still based on powerful man/attractive woman and, again increasingly powerful woman/younger good looking man. Why on earth do any of you think Madonna's personal trainer wanted to date Madonna or vice versa. She was using her fame and money to buy his body. Maybe not explicitly but she was definitely not into him for his conversations about nuclear physics and he was definitely not into her for her 50 year old body (being about 20 years younger).

Some relationships are entirely equal and based on love and respect and some are based on trade offs of power/money vs physical beauty. You may all argue that version one is fairer and nicer (and it is) but that does not mean version two will not continue happening or that there is anything intrinsically immoral (and certainly not illegal) about it.

PosieParker Thu 25-Oct-12 09:08:32

So Larry,

Gorillas showing bravado and parents having sex in the same room as their children, in the same paragraph as one coherent idea? What?

Parents, out of necessity, had sex in the same room as their kids.

Your posts say so much about you Larry and not really much else.

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 09:12:33

No-one has said version two doesn't happen. What people are saying is that is immoral and abusive of women...

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 09:16:52

Posie,

They both concern male behaviour and I guess concern something that most on this board dismiss: evo psych. Behaviour evolves over time and is driven by the endocrine system, which is ultimately evolved to further oue genes. As we become more human, we modify this behaviour with societal norms and laws but to pretend behaviours which are ultimately very ape like are somehow abnormal is to misunderstand who we are. So, to deduce that men hunting for sex in packs represents latent homsexuality is completely wrong.

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 09:29:13

"Evo psych" is not an accepted field. Also most people misunderstand the complexities of the things they are talking about. Homo sapiens had an evolutionary advantage over Neanderthals based on co-operative parenting, without condoms and modern medicine STIs would have been a natural check on promiscuity too. This idea that men "hunt in packs" to rape women in order to ensure their genes are passed on is total bollocks. Ever noticed that make orgasm makes a man go to sleep? That it normally incapacitates the man leaving the woman free to have sex with someone else why is promiscuity and exclusively make thing? Just another way you use pseudo science to justify your bullshit IMO.

Lapdancing clubs are not about sex in the exact same way rape is not about sex.

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 09:32:29

Stupid autocorrect! Doesn't like the word "male"

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 09:56:46

Offred,

Who said rape? "Hunt in packs" means lads go out together to chat up women, hoping to end in consensual sex. What do you make of premiership footballers attitudes towards sex. I actually find their behaviour abhorrent, before you think I am justifying it, but the way they hunt in packs when they clearly have very high testosterone (apparently winning increases testosterone exponentially (source: Between the Hour of the Dog and the Wolf) is indicative of the way the endocrine system influences male behaviour.

You are misunderstanding the complexities. There is a drive towards monogamy and co-operation based on exactly what you say. There is also a drive to propagate one's genes outside a single relationship (for both sexes). It was harder for women to do it, though, as the cost of neglecting their own children was higher. STIs have always been around although the more obvious ones were self limiting (no one would sleep with someone with syphilitic sores) and the less obvious ones (chlamydia for example) has very little effect on men. I might have felt sleepy after an orgasm but never incapacitated. Methinks you exaggerate somewhat there.

Autocorrect and you have something in common then smile.

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 10:01:21

By the way, I find what you and many other posters say to be quite interesting. It is a shame you have to colour it with your attitude to who you perceive me to be and make pointless ad hominem attacks.

It is far more interesting to debate with someone who disagrees with you than someone who agrees. I feel that most here prefer to have their preconceptions about men and male behaviour reinforced by others rather than challenged, especially by males who tend to get called trolls unless they totally endorse what the majority are saying. Surely males have some insight into male behaviour and its motivations? And please don't get into the "decent males" don't think certain ways. You really don't know in the same way as I cannot really imagine how a female thinks despite having many in depth conversations with women. A man can never entirely empathise with a woman and vice versa.

carmenelectra Thu 25-Oct-12 10:14:29

offred or at least I think it is offred, is bang on. These men think of nice women or women they love totally different to themselves and other sex workers. Women endure sex in exchange for material things or to please their men. Or even if they do enjoy sex there are certain things they would not ask them to do. You. Only have to read sites like grunternet to prove this. Many posts where the men say I see prostititutes because I couldn't ask my wife to do that.

Then men totally see themselves as entitled to sex and after all they have much higher sex drives don't they which must be satisfied. Women can live without it. What a load of old bollocks.

Larry, I have had sex in the same room as my children when they were babies. Occassionally. Its not quite the same as a gorilla(different species) mating in front of his peers. For instance, I would not ever let a man give me oral sex, on stage, in a strip club, in front of my mates.

Are you for real?

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 10:15:31

FGS will you please stop telling me what I think! You may think you are having a debate with me but you haven't actually read or understood anything I've said an the way you smugly try to speak for me makes me think you aren't even interested in anything other than talking to yourself.

Do you understand the word hunt and how it relates to rape?

Do you really understand the word consent or just think you do?

Men are incapacitated sexually larry, that's what I was talking about, sleepy and sexually incapacitated...

PosieParker Thu 25-Oct-12 10:19:18

But Larry, that almost forgives rape as it's an evolved urge? Way too dangerous a field for me I'm afraid, evo psych.

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 10:20:22

In what way exactly is buying a drink in return for conversation or paying for a woman to degrade herself sexually in front of your face or buying your wife a handbag in return for a blowjob consensual? It is entitled it isn't consensual and if you can't see how that is immoral that's why you can't see how it is related to rape and is part of rape culture, because you, like many other people are absolving yourself of your responsibilities to other humans using arguments bullshit about "evo psych" rape apologism and victim blaming and "everyone else does it".

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 25-Oct-12 10:21:32

Larry may want to think his behaviour in visiting lap dancing clubs can be justified by boiling human behaviour down to what gorillas do - but I don't.

And not all other men behave like gorillas either Larry. It's no justification for such ridiculous opinions as yours, that reduce sexual relationships to a financial transaction. You try to justify your own poor behaviour as being somehow 'instinctive' and 'what most men do' - but believe me, a lot human beings have come a long way during the evolutionary process.

Perhaps you have been left behind somewhere along the evolutionary road? Back with the apes.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 25-Oct-12 10:24:17

I've read Lazzer's pretty questionable views on consent as well - on the 'sex whilst asleep' threads. He repeated a fair number of dubious rape myths on that thread.

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 10:25:25

Offred,

"I think the idea of consent (legally) is misunderstood by a lot of people - it means agreement by choice. Someone may agree by choice to work in the sex industry although often those choices are influenced by other factors and even if you do choose it of your own free will, the fact you are being paid to work in the sex industry means you cannot actually really consent to sex acts. Fundamentally to enjoy porn or lapdancing or prostitution you have to ignore or not care that consent is not important in that sexual experience. Sometimes the way that is done is by pretending it is "all a bit of fun"."

I think this rather garbled paragraph shows that you do not understand the legal meaning of consent. It is construed in a narrow form. A prostitute is legally consenting if she consents to the act at the time, regardless of whether money changes hands. And it is also defined with relation to the mind of the man as in: "could he reasonably consider consent had been given". That is the law. You may argue that the law should be changed but you cannot argue with where the law stands now.

As to "hunt in packs", that draws a picture to me of a bunch of lads (or girls) out on the pull, to you it paints a picture of potential rapists.

We were actually discussing lap dancing, though, which to me consists of women dancing and chatting (and not touching), not blow jobs or full sex.

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 10:26:33

Sabrina,

Rubbish. Sex with someone while asleep is undoubtedly rape. End of. I have always said that. If you want to link to a post of mine which suggested otherwise, I would love to see it.

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 10:29:36
SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 25-Oct-12 10:32:17

But Offred, Larry has to tell you what you think. He's doing all us women a favour by visiting MN to enlighten us all - he's edjucating us. On any subject from children's health, through washing machines, to the sex industry it seems.

What's is called when men carefully explains to women how they should think, again? There's a name for it I'm sure...

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 10:32:28

It isn't garbled larry, I'm saying the concept of consent doesn't apply to the sex trade and it takes a special abusive dehumanising type of person who equates himself with an ape to see that as a normal and acceptable part of sex.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 25-Oct-12 10:33:23

Larry - I would Sweetheart, but they were all deleted by MNHQ.

You consulted your wife on the subject - and claimed she agreed with you - ring any bells?

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 10:38:15

"And not all other men behave like gorillas either Larry. It's no justification for such ridiculous opinions as yours, that reduce sexual relationships to a financial transaction. You try to justify your own poor behaviour as being somehow 'instinctive' and 'what most men do' - but believe me, a lot human beings have come a long way during the evolutionary process. "

You assume every one of my posts is about me. I am actually capable of thinking about a subject without an entirely egocentric view based on personal experience. I am middle aged with two little children and have zero interest in going to a lap dancing bar, or even a bar right now. I am normally in bed by 10PM. The last lap dancing bar I attended was at a stag, about 12 years ago. Prior to that, I have probably been about 10 times in my life over 5-10 years. I am not a habitue of the scene.

Nor do I buy my wife handbags in exchange for BJs. We have a reasonable and always consensual sex life, given two children of 3 and under.

I have, in the past, bought a girl a drink in a bar, got chatting and sometimes it has, and sometimes it has not, gone further. My only expectation was either a civilised "no thanks" in return for the offer or a "yes please" plus five mins of conversation. Again, I think this is well within the norms of "decent" human behaviour but does illustrate a very traditional exchange. Is that money for company or is it merely a polite introduction? I struggle to believe that does not happen any more or that it is now 50/50 men and women buying one another drinks.

I am, however, a man and I also like reading about human behaviour and have witnessed a fair bit in my life. In addition, I have found these boards a revelation in many ways and they have influenced the way I perceive that some women think about certain issues.

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 10:43:52

"But Offred, Larry has to tell you what you think."

Is that different from what every other poster does? If you don't want to read it, don't. Hell, why come on an internet forum at all?

I am a very unprolific poster. I often go weeks without posting and am very rarely on for more than a couple of hours at a time. Unlike Offred, for instance.

Larry - at least your views don't get ignored. wink

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 25-Oct-12 10:48:30

Larry - you admitted upthread that you used to go to lap dancing clubs. Although, apparently you were all very gentlemanly about it hmm

And you were the one who brought gorillas into the whole thing - bringing evolutionary behaviour into a thread about lap dancing is, imo, pseudo-scientific babble that doesn't further your argument one jot.

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 10:52:57

Sabrina,

You may call it pseudo scientific babble. I think the thesis that men and women being different is entirely dependent on conditioning and "the patriarchy" completely fails to stand up to any serious scientific scrutiny, yet it is pervasive on these boards.

And I admitted again that I have been. I also explained the context, the frequency and what actually happened. Of course, that is the bit which is easier to ignore. It is far more comfortable to think in black and white rather than shades of grey.

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 11:00:48

We're all aware that you think buying women's time with a drink is decent behaviour larry I don't think you need to reiterate it. Lets go back to the original point you made; that women who object to lapdancing clubs are objectively unreasonable for seeing it as a dealbreaker and therefore will reduce the number of men they have available to them for marriage.

On this thread.

Where the op made it clear to her partner that she wasn't ok with it and, knowing that, he went anyway, in secret. That does rather imply you are saying the same as Kerry that men "have to" do this perfectly reasonable and legitimate activity in secret because their wives are unreasonable to object to it otherwise what is the point in saying it. Which is consensual how?

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 11:02:36

Respectful how?

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 11:07:27

Offred,

I chose to reiterate it because I am curious as to who would take issue with it and whether they think it does not occur or is somehow abusive?

I do think that it is a low threshold for a deal breaker, especially in a marriage with children. I am not saying that someone should be thrilled if their partner goes or don't have a right to feel uncomfortable with it. And if they were off on their own every week, I could see that it might be a dealbreaker. But in the context of a bunch of men going together on a stag once in a blue moon (I think just once in the OP's case) I think it would be a crazy reason to split up. JMO.

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 11:07:50

And it isn't that I don't want to read you telling me what I think and saying I've said things I haven't and thinking having this imaginary argument narrative you have going on is an "interesting debate". I don't want you to write my arguments for me larry. You seem to be thinking this follows a script, attributing misandry and feminism to me treating me as "oh you're one of those women" and pre-empting arguments you have decided I will make which is an extremely controlling and disrespectful thing to do and is not at all the same thing as trying to interpret what I mean from what I say.

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 11:10:39

Offred,

I suspect that your last post has a great deal to do with me:

a/ disagreeing with you

b/ being a man.

I do read your posts and try to understand what you are saying. I do address the points within them. If you feel I have misunderstood, then you can correct me.

It does, however, make me laugh when compared to the way people absurdly extrapolate and deliberately misinterpret my views to make them as offensive as possible and then further assume that they know what I am "really like" as a person (and you are one of the worst offenders on that score).

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 11:11:39

It is nothing to do with what you think though larry can you not see that? It is to do with the op's right to self determination and choice in her own relationship and whether different people think it is reasonable to be upset or see it is a deal breaker is completely and entirely irrelevant to the fact that the op's partner knew how the op felt and chose to disrespect her. Are you saying that is ok? That her oh gets to decide for her what her boundaries are? Would you accept that from your wife?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 25-Oct-12 11:12:55

But Larry, who are you to judge that in other people's relationships? And what does the 'context' in which you visited lap dancing clubs have to with it? You were still there, you are still here trying to justify it, normalise it, and saying wives with children should just put up with it.

It is not up to you to tell a woman with children that they shouldn't split up for any particular reason - it is up to the woman in the relationship to define what her thresholds are.

And for some women, the thought of men visiting a lap dance club, having a private dance, having some other woman being paid to mash her boobs into her husbands face is just one step too far.

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 11:14:24

You are very passive aggressive larry. You have not understood my posts and you have at least three times attributed arguments and qualities to me that I have not and would not make.

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 11:15:28

Offred,

If the OP did not want others' views, she could have booted her partner without reference to a MN thread. She was actually canvassing opinions on what is acceptable and what is not.

I think I said upthread that what is defined as a dealbreaker and what is considered controlling behaviour has to be with reference to society and other's opinions. If my wife slept with another man but decided that was not a dealbreaker, I may take issue (though I would try to forgive and move on if it was a one off). On the other hand, if my wife spoke and flirted with a man on a night out with friends and I decided that was a dealbreaker, I would be being controlling and unreasonable. Lapdancing is somewhere in between and, in a sense, what this thread is all about.

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 11:16:43

You can't disagree with me larry because you have never understood what I am saying and have instead attributed various arguments that I haven't made to me.

It is nothing to do with you being a man, it's to do with you seeming to equate maleness with abuse of women.

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 11:18:01

"You are very passive aggressive larry."

Put him in a neat box and hope he will go away.

You are just aggressive without any passivity at all!

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 11:18:03

But larry that is your opinion. There is no objective rule that reasonableness and relationship values should be determined "by society" it is simply your opinion and is not any kind of authority.

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 11:20:17

Offred,

Of course it is just my opinion. But would I be reasonable if I told my wife to wear a burqa or it would be a dealbreaker, for instance? Would it just be someone's opinion if they told me that I was being unreasonable?

What on earth do you think determines relationship values? Do you think they are entirely individual? If so, why are most people's so similar and vary according to the society in which they live?

carmenelectra Thu 25-Oct-12 11:22:01

larry are you suggesting that a woman I a relationship with children needs to reduce her boundaries? Maybe accept some things her husband does that she doesn't like in order to keep him.

I also wonder when I hear men talking like you do whether or not they discuss these matters with the wifem is your wife ok with lap dancing etc. Or are these topics that you wouldn't discuss. My dp knows my boundaries. And I would happily chat about the sex industry andd hear his views. Which by the way would not be like yours.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 25-Oct-12 11:23:25

Offred, I know how you feel.

Yesterday Larry accused me of wearing skimpy clothing in order to get my dinner paid for by a man. And apparently, that's just the same as being a lap dancer. confused

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 11:24:08

Er, yes relationship values should be entirely individually determined. I find it crazy that you live your whole life without using your own brain.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 25-Oct-12 11:29:29

Larry, yes of course relationship values are individual.

Are you living in some bizarre parallel universe? Women don't live in a world where they have to put up with a man's behaviour in order to feed their children anymore, Larry.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 25-Oct-12 11:30:44

*bad behaviour

OneMoreChap Thu 25-Oct-12 11:44:25

We've talked about deal breakers before, elsewhere; I thought the summary was that while people keep talking, and may initially know deal breakers, more may become apparent.

You won't always know what a deal breaker is until it happens, so it's a bit facile to say that you can set them out.

Wouldn't occur to me that animal cruelty was a deal breaker, because it would never occur to me that DW was a dogbeater... if she became one, it would be.

larrygrylls talked about demanding his DW wore burqua; he could demand that. I assume in this society she'd tell him to take a hike, and it could be a deal breaker for him... that's his problem, not mine, nor his wife's. She could say to him "Wow, sleazebag, visiting lap-dancing bars is a deal breaker.." if he does, and she decides it's over, that's her decision, not mine or his...

DW wouldn't tell me going to a lap-dancing bar would be a deal breaker. Why? Because she knows I wouldn't.

OP has to decide what she wants to do.
he has been on stag dos before and he knows I hate it. I'm gutted, he says I should forget this one "mistake" as he (allegedly) didn't has a private dance as he knows I would hate that. He claims he was just curious (inspite having been before and knowing all about it!!) Being in front of a naked woman that isnt me, for kicks just feels like cheating on some level.

Sounds like she's made views pretty damn clear - and he doesn't respect them, or he doubts her willingness to sanction...

RunnyBum Thu 25-Oct-12 12:11:28

It's not a deal breaker after 13years and with two DDs 5 and 2, as it can't be, it just leaves me sad this isnt the man i dreamt of being with. Nobody is perfect but this just leaves me a bit uneasy so we'll just have to see how things go. He says he won't do it again as it upsets me so much (what else could he say!). That said he finished work early the other day and went to the casino, I found out as he dropped his money withdrawal receipt on the floor.....

He has turned off his find my iPhone app, which I don't care about as it was horrible to find out that way. I genuinely only looked for innocent reasons and I don't want to check on him constantly - as now I would have reason too. Foolishly or not I need to learn to trust him again.

I probably won't write again and will change my nickname. I dont want to be drawn into the debate, and as I feel weak and embarrassed about the whole thing.

Thanks to those who offered advice. X

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 25-Oct-12 12:16:16

And Larry, you seem a little caught up in the notion of a man buying a woman a drink in a bar. It is fine for a man to offer a drink to another customer in a bar - personally I don't accept drinks from strangers, but if I did, there is no way that it would be in any way comparable to a man going to a lap dancing club.

The difference is that the in the bar scenario the woman can a] Refuse b] Accept. They are on a equal footing as both are paying customers in a bar (where the only thing for sale are drinks).

In the lapdancing club scenario the man and the lapdancer are not on an equal footing. He is a paying customer and she is the 'service'.

Runnybum, I really hope you have your own independent finances or that you are very well-off. Otherwise how long can you put up with a man who uses family money to look at other women's fannies and to gamble?
Wishing you best of luck xx

panicnotanymore Thu 25-Oct-12 12:29:38

onemorechap - well put.

Runny - hope you work things out in a way that is right for you. I think with stuff like this one's reaction is personal, and is going to be based on more than just the bare facts. We all have gut feelings about relationship issues, and our guts are rarely wrong.

My H has been to lap dancing club on a work night out. I wasn't thrilled but I was reassured by the fact he a) told me, and b) found the evening awkward and embarrassing, and has never shown any desire to repeat it.

I have learnt the hard way that it's the quiet mousey girls in the office that pose a threat to a long marriage, not lap dancers.

I think a man's attitude to these places is a bigger issue than whether or not he has ever indulged so to speak.

Charbon Thu 25-Oct-12 12:43:21

It's not a deal breaker after 13years and with two DDs 5 and 2, as it can't be

Yes and I imagine your husband knows that too.

He says he won't do it again as it upsets me so much (what else could he say!)

Well he could have said that he'll never do it again because he objects to LDCs and what they represent, as well as his regret that his actions have upset you so much but as he's also gambling your money and keeping secrets from you, I don't suppose you would have believed him.

You can't make yourself trust an untrustworthy person. All you can do is turn a blind eye and develop a defence mechanism where you bargain away all your inner voices and live a very inauthentic life.

But be aware that this is an active choice you are making. If and when his secrets and lies get worse, realise that the clues were all there and you could have once acted to make a better life for you and your daughters.

larrygrylls Thu 25-Oct-12 14:16:33

"Er, yes relationship values should be entirely individually determined."

Really?!

So values among the Amish are very similar than among the feminist boards of MN. And infidelity has the same weight in France and the UK as a relationship breaker. And of course these values have all been decided individually entirely uninfluenced by the societal values around them.

Opentooffers Thu 25-Oct-12 14:21:00

Entertaining banter though all this maybe, sadly it has usurped the OP's predicament somewhat. Wonder if this is the tip of the ice-berg? Casino after work found out rather than mentioned, turning off phone app. This lap-dance visit was on a casual night out rather than in male celebration and I get the feeling that the OP may be setting it with other things that she is not happy about within the relationship, that have yet to be mentioned but cause concern. I may be wrong, but it is just a feeling, the undertone of what the OP has posted about feeling weak. Sorry OP think this thread has done a disservice to you and been taken over by people who like to voice their opinions rather than give help and advice.

TheReturnOfBridezilla Thu 25-Oct-12 15:28:50

I'd feel perfectly entitled to go out and have a one night stand if my husband went for a lapdance. I really don't see what he could complain about. grin

OneMoreChap Thu 25-Oct-12 15:35:10

.... wonder if the phrase "might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb" occurs to those men who consider going to lap dancing clubs...

TheReturnOfBridezilla Thu 25-Oct-12 15:48:59

I just don't see the appeal of male or female strippers tbh. If you want to look at other people naked, maybe consider you shouldn't be in a committed relationship. If you want to open the relationship up on both sides / end the relationship then that's probably the right way to go.

OneMoreChap Thu 25-Oct-12 15:50:32

well, I'm a non-lap-dance supporter so I'd tend to go along with that

TheReturnOfBridezilla Thu 25-Oct-12 15:51:26

Sorry op, just caught your last post and I'm being insensitive. This isn't really the place for my views. Hope you are ok.

PosieParker Thu 25-Oct-12 15:55:17

OP. One thing I don't understand about the ending of your story is how you are supposed to trust someone who, as a first move, turns off his iPhone app that shows where he is. confused That's quite bizarre. Surely as a first move, when attempting to rebuild trust, the breaker becomes completely transparent, even if it just stops the constant questioning. I would have thought that was a given.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker Thu 25-Oct-12 16:34:30

Op, you seem unhappy and powerless in your relationship in more ways than one. That is no way to live. Don't accept shoddy treatment for the sake of being with a bloke who sounds like a poor sort of partner and father

PosieParker Thu 25-Oct-12 16:38:59

I have to say I luuuurrrrrve the idea of using Where's my phone to find my husband, it's piggin' brilliant!!! He can't talk when riding his bike and gets home very hungry, bit moany, so now I can track him and shove food at him as soon as he gets in the door! (not 1950s housewife)

fiventhree Thu 25-Oct-12 19:10:05

OP, about this:

"He has turned off his find my iPhone app, which I don't care about as it was horrible to find out that way."

I dont check up on my h after his infidelity either. And neither of us use the app you mention.

But I would be a bit unhappy if my h turned it off straight after I had complained about his behaviour, because it suggests that he doesnt want to take the chance of being found.

In fact, it was what my h did when he used to 'accidentally' change his password/his web home screen or whatever, after I had found some more dodgy evidence.

He does sound secretive, and that isnt good in itself.

Doha Thu 25-Oct-12 19:23:11

I wonder why he turned his find my I phone app off, Probably because he doesn't want you to find out just what he is spending family money on. lapdancers and gambling--what a loving family man NOT

You had better look out for yourself ad your DC's OP....

olgaga Thu 25-Oct-12 20:35:47

Yes that's an interesting point, re the spending of family resources on strippers.

RunnyBum please come back to explore your options. You do have options, you know. Hopefully your next thread won't be derailed by men wanting to pursue an agenda.

I and others would sincerely like to help you.

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 21:12:35

Meh, not sure that's very fair olgaga, there have been more female than male apologists on this thread. I know it is larry you are meaning, he's bad because of his fundamental beliefs not because he is a man.

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 21:13:31

And I've been arguing just as much as him so derailing of the thread shouldn't only be blamed on him.

Offred Thu 25-Oct-12 21:14:17

Larry - should be means something different from are.

olgaga Thu 25-Oct-12 22:44:42

Well I was arguing too, until I got reported grin but the thread definitely got derailed on Tuesday morning when some people decided some other people needed to be corrected. Hey - I was there!

larrygrylls Fri 26-Oct-12 09:01:55

"derailing" is in the eye of the beholder, who in this case is the OP.

General discussion around the issue may actually be more useful to someone than immediate snap judgments and instructions as to how she should feel.

I have one rule I always stick to. If the OP asks me to leave or tells me my input is not useful, I refrain from posting any further. There are plenty here who continue on threads after having been asked to leave by the OP...

Offred Fri 26-Oct-12 09:38:03

Ironic larry, ironic...

kerrymumbles Fri 26-Oct-12 14:43:29

oi. i never said men "had to" to this reasonable behavior...etc. etc.

i just said he wouldn't tell her next time.

and he won't

kerrymumbles Fri 26-Oct-12 14:43:52

*do

Offred Fri 26-Oct-12 16:22:39

Did you read the op Kerry? He didn't tell her this time or the other times he has probably been either. What is your point? That she shouldn't complain or he won't tell her? What's the point of that?

ledkr Fri 26-Oct-12 17:21:59

Have to just quickly say that I do find it odd that a bloke can sit and post on a predominantly female forum for days on end to try and tell women how they should be feeling about certain subjects. Shouldn't you be doing something a bit more manly like have a lap dance?

OneMoreChap Sat 27-Oct-12 19:13:18

ledkr

Have to just quickly say that I do find it odd that a bloke can sit and post on a predominantly female forum for days on end to try and tell women how they should be feeling about certain subjects

Mumsnet = by parents for parents...

not female for women...

Though, actually, an awful lot of it does seem to be women telling other women how they should feel, or behave...

Offred Sat 27-Oct-12 19:19:08

Ha, have agreed with you so much on this thread OMC, what to do, what to do... grin

ledkr Sun 28-Oct-12 11:40:21

One more no offence intended and yes put in my place about the parenting point but its the length of time and effort that some guys spend on here trying to tell women how they should feel about the sex trade when opinions are bound to differ that amazes me. I can't imagine dh doing that or even wanting to that's all. smile