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Distraught - husband kept 8 year secret from me

(350 Posts)
Alicetravellingviawonderland Mon 03-Sep-12 16:59:54

Hi, please help me - I discovered a couple of days ago that my husband used the family computer to access porn websites. I confronted him and he confessed and through my questions I now know this has been going on for 8 years (since we've had a computer). He says that it's something he did every now and then but only when I was out of the house. At first he tried to calm me down by saying its something most men do and that it wasn't because of anything I'd done or didn't do. He did it when he was home alone and bored. We have a nice life, decent jobs, a lovely son, I thought we were very much in love and we have a good sex life. I can't tell you how hurt I am that he's had this secret life for 8 years. He says the stuff he watched on line was free and all 'normal' stuff. How can I believe him when I feel like I don't know who he really is? And what do I do now? He says he's sorry (he's been physically sick for the entire day when I found out) and that he'll go to counselling and never return to these sites again. For me, I'm completely shaken and a wreck. I cannot believe I didn't know anything about it - for that I feel very stupid. How could i ever trust him again? Why would i ever trust him again? I feel angry that he's used the family computer for this purpose. I cannot understand the porn thing, is something missing in my marriage or is it really common place amongst men? Also, if he's been doing it all this time, is he addicted and will he be able to give it up? We've been together 21 years - am I married to a cheat and a deceiver or a daft guy who made a huge mistake and who I should work with to sort it out? I go from wanting to throw him out to thinking we can somehow work through this. What's normal, what's acceptable.........what to do next?

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 17:02:25

I think you're totally overreacting. Looking at porn isn't some big secret! You make it sound like he had an 8 yr affair or has a secret child!!

I'm not saying you are supposed to be delighted about the porn or anything...but I do think you need to get some persp[ective and see this for the small fry it is.

NotSuchASmugMarriedNow Mon 03-Sep-12 17:04:13

On-line porn is addictive sad. The only way to cure an addiction is to go "cold turkey".

I'm so sorry but your either gonna have to get rid of your broadband or your dh. I am 99 percent sure that while you have internet access in the house he wil access pornographic websites. Usually when your in bed.

Alicetravellingviawonderland Mon 03-Sep-12 17:04:24

It was a big secret that he chose not to tell me for 8 years thanks - that's pretty big in my book

Alicetravellingviawonderland Mon 03-Sep-12 17:06:32

Hmmm, feel getting rid or banning things isn't really dealing with the issue though but I appreciate your thinking

elastamum Mon 03-Sep-12 17:06:48

I am surprised you are so shocked TBH. Whilst I am not a big fan of porn I have a houseful of men here and I would be more surprised if they had never looked at it hmm

WipsGlitter Mon 03-Sep-12 17:07:07

Well he probably knew this was how you would react. I've no idea how common it is, fairly though I would say.

AllOverIt Mon 03-Sep-12 17:07:16

I understand how you feel OP, I'd be a bit gutted too. Be prepare for others to come on here and tell you you're completely overreacting and that it's 'nothing' sad

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 17:07:48

My dh occasionally looks at porn, but he's not addicted.

I can't find it in me to care about it, as it's not problematic for me and doesn't affect our relationship. He's discreet, and I'm disinterested in what he's doing anyway.

There is nothing in the OP to suggest this guy has a problem! The problem lies with the gravity his wife is giving it. Imho. Sorry OP.

Helltotheno Mon 03-Sep-12 17:08:10

Looking at porn isn't some big secret!

Well it was in the case of the OP's DH hmm

No suggestions OP, except that if it was what he calls 'normal' porn, why would he have kept it a secret? Can you get the PC and find out what type of porn it was? I wouldn't necessarily believe anything he tells you.

Tiago Mon 03-Sep-12 17:08:20

Was it actually a secret or just something he didn't bother to mention? Did he look at it all the time or just sometimes?

elastamum Mon 03-Sep-12 17:08:26

Just because he might look at porn occasionally doesnt mean he doesnt love you. Apart from your recent shock, how is your relationship?

Aboutlastnight Mon 03-Sep-12 17:08:50

I'm no fan of porn but to talk of throwing out someone you love over it, is a very strong reaction.

You obviously need to talk about what the dealbreakers are in your relationship, and it's for you both to work this one out. But try to keep some perspective - no one is perfect, good people do silly things and it's not like he's gambled away your house, had an affair or been charged with the crime of the century.

Aboutlastnight Mon 03-Sep-12 17:10:02

"On-line porn is addictive"

really?

Shakirasma Mon 03-Sep-12 17:11:13

I'm sorry OP but I think you really need to get a grip.

Your reaction says a lot more about you and your insecurities than it does about your DH.

It's not unreasonable to not be pleased about it but you really need to get some perspective before you and DH can have a sensible discussion about boudaries etc.

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 17:11:17

"I'm so sorry but your either gonna have to get rid of your broadband or your dh."

Is it ok to chuckle a little?

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 03-Sep-12 17:11:32

Some perspective.... a lot of very healthy, well-adjusted men & women look at porn in private the way a some people read 'Fifty Shades of Grey' in private. It doesn't necessarily mean an unsatisfactory sex-life, lack of love, infidelity or that there is an addiction. Masturbation isn't abnormal. If it upsets you this badly, he should stop looking at it certainly but I don't think counselling is necessary.

Tiago Mon 03-Sep-12 17:12:06

And why would you want to throw him out? Seriously? You say he is a good father, you have a good sex life, etc etc. Yet you want to chuck him out because he does something that he has told you he views as normal.

Sorry OP, but unless there is something more I really do think you are massively overreacting.

TheHeirOfSlytherin Mon 03-Sep-12 17:12:49

he says it's only something he did now and again

So why do you think he is addicted?

You are overreacting A Lot IMO.

OwlLady Mon 03-Sep-12 17:13:16

what's normal is that most people tell each other things I suppose and if you had no idea for 21 years that he used porn i suppose it is a shock but I am also a bit hmm about the normal porn statement, but it depends how you view porn and its relationship to women

ThePigOnTheWall Mon 03-Sep-12 17:13:34

It doesn't sound to me like he's addicted. And if he knew he would get this reaction, I'm not surprised he didn't mention it

Laying aside my feelings about porn for one moment, I just want to say to you OP that you know that him wanking isn't a betrayal of you. Or a personal slight. It's something that most people do, whether they are in a relationship or not

TheHeirOfSlytherin Mon 03-Sep-12 17:13:49

Maybe he kept it secret because he knew the op would be like this?

elastamum Mon 03-Sep-12 17:13:49

I read Fifty shades of grey on a plane the other week - does that make me a porn addict! shock It was crap BTW, wont be reading the rest....

Goldchilled7up Mon 03-Sep-12 17:15:20

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pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 17:15:21

Yes...I like a good old wank myself...and guess what? I'm not ever always thinking about hubby while I do it.

Our marriage must be in terrible danger!!!!

Alicetravellingviawonderland Mon 03-Sep-12 17:15:30

Thanks folks - yes over reacting, I'm in shock. When you think you know someone and they keep something completely separate from you, something they do on a regular basis (every week/month) it doesn't feel right.

lynniep Mon 03-Sep-12 17:15:32

I dont think its particularly a big deal either. Sorry. He hasnt told you - he's probably embarrassed. I wouldnt tell my other half either. I think counselling is way over the top. Its normal in my book and I certainly think 'daft guy who made a huge mistake' is an overreaction. Its not a huge mistake. Shagging your neighbour is a huge mistake.

WhatYouLookingAt Mon 03-Sep-12 17:15:36

Maybe he didn't tell you because he knew you would hugely over react as you have.

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 03-Sep-12 17:15:47

@elastamum... no.

adrastea Mon 03-Sep-12 17:17:00

On-line porn is addictive
Really? For whom? You? Everyone? The first time I looked/used online porn was in 1996. Since then I have had a few occasional short periods where I have looked at it often, but mostly there have been periods of months and months or even years inbetween. Is that addicted?

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 17:18:05

Yes - cheating on your wife would be huge and a mistake. A quick, occasional wank to internet porn really isn't.

OwlLady Mon 03-Sep-12 17:18:25

If she is upset, she is upset, I don't think there is any need to treat her like a child. A lot of women dislike how porn depicts the female form, maybe the OP has her own opinions as to why she feels so uncomfortable with it, I don't know, but she wont be the first or last woman to be upset about something like this and I don't think anyone has the right to tell her how to think either.

IShallCallYouSquishy Mon 03-Sep-12 17:20:01

I think it's perfectly normal to look at porn. Was sat with DH on sofa just other evening and we wanted to find something out so googled on his iPhone and in the drop down bit that shows recent searches one of them was "free porn". My reaction? "oh yeah, I saw that in your searches mr!" did it bother me? Not really. We have a 14 week old baby and I'm too knackered for sex more then about once a week at the moment so would rather looked at a bit of porn if me and DD are in bed, then go out and cheat!

In simple terms I think you are over reacting a bit!

Goldchilled7up Mon 03-Sep-12 17:20:22

Personally I think you should apologise you your husband for how you made him feel. Poor man!

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 17:21:15

No I agree Owl - I already said she is not expected to be delighted about it....but she is not just 'upset' - she is worried, furious, frightened and freaked out....and that is not rational.

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 17:22:18

She is talking about splitting up with him!

BonnyDay Mon 03-Sep-12 17:22:58

lol

all men do ( apart form those married to MNERs of course) wink

Alicetravellingviawonderland Mon 03-Sep-12 17:23:25

Wow what reactions here. My problem is that we were pals who shared laughs, good times, bad times. But now I've realised we don't share everything and that feels disappointing. No tea and sympathy on this forum that's for sure lol

Chandon Mon 03-Sep-12 17:24:30

Hi Op,

why do you feel so threatened by this?

It can be seedy and even nasty and illegal, it all depends on the sort of stuff he goes for. If it is not any sicko stuff, I don't see why you're so upset, tbh.

Not just as it is something "men do", women can be into it too.

Not every woman reading 50 shades, or every man reading Playboy, is a deviant.

Not all porn is nasty, though a lot of it is...

BonnyDay Mon 03-Sep-12 17:24:54

yes there is some rather tasteful stuff on tumblr a friend told me ;)

Goldchilled7up Mon 03-Sep-12 17:24:57

Indeed. I agree that the OP should express her opinions about porn with him, but he has the right to disagree, and not be made to feel like a perv. He didn't cheat on her.

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 17:25:01

You can't expect to share everything!

How cloying. We all need our little me-isms - and this is one of his.

FreckledLeopard Mon 03-Sep-12 17:25:38

Have you spoken about porn in the past? Have you said how much you loathe it/don't understand it? What about masturbation? Surely both of you must masturbate from time to time?

I think, frankly, that looking at online porn (or, before the internet, some 'girly' magazines/videos) is the norm amongst most men. I'd probably think it odd if a guy didn't look at porn.

Why the huge over-reaction?

Ffs the fact that you haven't noticed any difference in his behavior towards you etc in 8 years says it all. There is no problem, he isn't an addict and you are overreacting somewhat. If he had been ignoring you or whatever then fair enough but you say you have a great relationship so what's the big deal? It's not impacted on your relationship thus far so why should it now? Plenty of adults (notice I didn't say men) use porn and there is nothing wrong with that.

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 03-Sep-12 17:25:57

You are entitled to your feelings.

Porn would be a deal breaker for me too and it is for many other women.

Not all men use porn.

Secret porn use is definitely NOT on - this is taking away energy, time and other resources away from the relationship.

Porn can be addictive and there is a link between porn and infidelity so I can understand your concerns although he does not comes across as addicted. Is he using webcams/sex sites as well?

I would also be horrified that he thinks it is ok to wank over images of vulnerable women who are likely to have been abused/trafficked. My advice is for him to do some research in the realities of the porn industry - this may shock him into stopping using porn.

ThePigOnTheWall Mon 03-Sep-12 17:26:48

Are you telling me that you share everything with him - or do you gossip with your girlfriends, or occasionally spend more money on shoes than you said you did, or have a wank, or find him really irritating, or secretly dislike his best mate, or fancy the postman, or a million other thoughts that you have that you don't share with him.

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 17:28:08

Secret porn use is definitely NOT on - this is taking away energy, time and other resources away from the relationship.

Blethers. That's just not true. At all.

ParaOlympicpark Mon 03-Sep-12 17:29:12

Same as my DH, I was aghast but not too offended about the fact that it was porn, more that he hadn't told me. I don't think you are overreacting as you must feel very hurt, same as I did but I did get over it quite quickly and now I don't really think about it, try not to worry too much. I think it is normal for men to do this and treat it completely separately and differently to how they view their relationship. It won't be a slight on you, although I understand why you feel that way. Lots of men are less discreet about it. Not worth splitting up over I don't think. Sending you a hug anyway though....

adeucalione Mon 03-Sep-12 17:31:22

Another one here who thinks that you have over-reacted.

I know that you can't control how you feel, but I do think that you should be able to think about this rationally and I feel sorry that your husband has been made to feel seedy and dirty about something that most men look at - it used to be magazines, which probably restricted use to those brave enough to buy them, but now it is freely and anonymously available online I think that those that haven't looked at it are probably in the minority.

It is hardly something that I discuss often grin but whenever this topic has come up in a group of friends I have had the impression that it is normal and common. By making him feel ashamed you are ensuring that, from now on, he is even more furtive about it.

Goldchilled7up Mon 03-Sep-12 17:31:31

OP is not that we're not being supportive. You've got the right not to like porn but you're not being fair on your husband. Myself and others are just trying to show you that is not an abnormal thing that he has done.

About sharing, that's all very nice, but everyone also has the right to their privacy.

bethjoanne Mon 03-Sep-12 17:32:10

dont worry most men look at porn its natural for them to do just like masturbation.may be he didnt tell you if you have low self esteem he didnt want to upset you.be confident and posititive.i wouldnt mind if my dh was looking at porn.think you are overeacting you will push him away and he wont tell you anything as he knows hes in the dog house if he does. have a coffee/glass of wine, relax and forget.hes not a alcoholic, serial cheater (affairs),ETC they are some things i would re act like you are. please forget and enjoy you life its too short to worry about little things. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

polkadotsrock Mon 03-Sep-12 17:34:10

This wouldn't bother me at all.
Fwiw he is obviously upset that he has upset you, that surely says something. I'm quite sure he's not addicted or you would have noticed it before so talk it through when you've calmed down a bit

Jemma1111 Mon 03-Sep-12 17:34:56

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ThePigOnTheWall Mon 03-Sep-12 17:36:33

By the way, that list I gave up there ^ I've done all of those things just today <leads secret life> although I will tell DP about the wank and the postman <bit duller>

picnicbasketcase Mon 03-Sep-12 17:36:54

It depends if your relationship is in trouble already I think. If he's looking at porn and doing nothing with you, it's a big problem obviously. If it's something he does occasionally while the rest of your relationship is fine, you might be overreacting slightly. Are you very anti-porn and that's why he kept it secret? Or did he just never tell you out of embarrassment?

tedmundo Mon 03-Sep-12 17:38:11

Oh to be a fly on the wall if he goes to counselling ....

McKayz Mon 03-Sep-12 17:39:05

I clicked on here expecting an affair or secret child not a man who occasionally watches porn.

I think you have really overreacted. This wouldn't bother me at all. Why can't you trust him? He's looked at porn that's all.

AlfalfaMum Mon 03-Sep-12 17:39:13

I have every sympathy for you, OP, and I'm sure I would be upset too at the secrecy. And also because I'm a bit cats bum about porn because I think it's exploitative, and as far as I'm aware my DH feels the same so I would feel misled to boot.
Positives are that it sounds like your DH has been completely honest with you once you brought it up, and it doesn't sound like he has an addiction to me.

MrsPnut Mon 03-Sep-12 17:39:21

I know my OH has a sneaky look at some of the free porn sites when he's home alone and bored too.
I don't care, most of it is self submitted and pretty dire, and he only ever does it when he's alone in the house. It doesn't affect me or our children so it isn't taking anything away from our relationship. I can't see how it's going to make him unfaithful either, he's at home having a furtive look because he can't be arsed to go out or do anything more productive.

If you over react like this about it then no wonder he has never told you.

Dahlen Mon 03-Sep-12 17:40:10

EVerybody is an individual and has a right to their own likes and interests. However, if you're in a relationship and there are no issues of control otherwise, then surely if you love someone and value their happiness you would refrain from doing something that you know your partner finds abhorrent? Porn is not a necessity.

Porn would be a deal breaker for me.

I don't like it, don't like how it represents women, am disgusted by the idea mooted on here that I would be over-reacting if DH did this on our family computer.

OwlLady Mon 03-Sep-12 17:44:04

It does make me laugh because I am sure men are not as comfortable with women wanting to look at mens big cocks everyday especially if they are photoshopped, but it doesn't concern me because I am married to an owl

AlmostAGoldHipster Mon 03-Sep-12 17:44:20

OP, I don't think you're overreacting at all - you feel what you feel and your emotions are valid.

It would be a deal-breaker for me too because a) I have big issues with porn and b) I would feel as if I didn't really know the husband anymore.

I'm so sorry that you're so upset.

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 17:44:30

Dahlen - I agree to certain extent, and think the OP's dh's taste for titbits of porn will be up for discussion regarding that....but not until the OP can wind her neck in and behave like a rational person.

Hullygully Mon 03-Sep-12 17:44:33

I'm with you op. Porn is VILE and that is bad enough, but also that you thought you were friends and knew and trusted each other etc means it is a shock and very hurtful to discover the horrid little wanky secret. Yuk.

OwlLady Mon 03-Sep-12 17:46:03

she's upset, has posted when she is upset. Some people can't be rational when upset (I can't for instancegrin)

needsomeperspective Mon 03-Sep-12 17:46:27

Another vote for massive overreaction here. You have a computer and you SERIOUSLY thought your husband had never surfed for porn on it. Ever? The Victorians called and said they'd like thir standards back now please.

adeucalione Mon 03-Sep-12 17:46:30

This is very difficult. One the one hand I think he should never look at it again because he loves you and shouldn't want to cause you pain. But on the other hand I really do think that it is harmless. I am trying to imagine how I would feel if DH told me that I should stop having a glass of wine in the evening because he was teetotal and found it offensive - I think I would think he was being daft and just have a glass when he wasn't there. So honestly, I think that you need to reach an agreement that is acceptable to you both - not to use family computer, only when house empty etc? I certainly don't think you should be considering kicking him out, or even counselling really.

FarloWearsAGoldRibbon Mon 03-Sep-12 17:51:34

I would be bloody upset and angry too, it's a nasty exploitative industry and the thought of my DH looking at videos of girls probably half his age creeps me right out. I wouldn't end a marriage over it in isolation but it would give me misgivings about him and would need to be discussed.

birdofthenorth Mon 03-Sep-12 17:55:32

Looking it at occasionally- perfectly normal, regardless of how disagreeable you may find this.

Being addicted to it- less common, and a bit of an issue, yes. Does he think he can give up?

BlatantRedhead Mon 03-Sep-12 17:58:28

Feel like I've missed something here. Is it fetish stuff he's looking at, that's freaked you out?

To be honest, from what you've said - that its a bit of 'normal' porn that he only does 'every now and then' - I can't really see what the big deal is. I can see why you'd be upset if you had asked him in the past and he'd denied it but if your reaction is to throw him out or force him to get counselling for something as natural as masturbation then I can see why he wouldn't tell you.

It's not necessarily a secret if he simply didn't mention it. My DP doesn't tell me he looks at porn, I just assume does because most men seem to. It doesn't affect our relationship or our sex life so doesn't bother me. It clearly hasn't affected your relationship or sex life if he's been at it for 8 years out of 21 and you hadn't noticed so wy does it matter?

Hullygully Mon 03-Sep-12 17:59:28

<faints at how many women think the porn industry is just fine and dandy>

BlatantRedhead Mon 03-Sep-12 17:59:38

LOL @ needsomeperspective!

OwlLady Mon 03-Sep-12 18:00:50

i know hullygully.

is it an age thing? or are these people really men?

Hullygully Mon 03-Sep-12 18:03:20

gawd knows.

If they are women we've all failed.

If they are men we're still failing.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Mon 03-Sep-12 18:05:17

there is something depressing and grim about the thought that every time you went out of the house your dh thought 'bingo' and headed for the family computer to have a wank, OP. of course, he may not have been doing it that often but by not being honest about it in the first place... he rather lets your imagination run riot when you do find out.

Devendra Mon 03-Sep-12 18:05:30

I watch porn sometimes when alone...and NEVER feel the need to tell DP..its up to me what I wank to really. Our relationship is healthy, sex life excellent. Serious overreaction. `

Didn't you know Hully?

It is supposedly a sign that you are a cool, happening, hip partner if you condone your man wanking over an exploited woman on your PC.

Thank fuck I'm neither cool or hip.

JustFabulous Mon 03-Sep-12 18:07:20

I think the OP is been given a really hard time and some of you are being rather cruel.

The OP has had a shock and it is a big deal for her what she has found out. Just because you think it is normal, fine, acceptable doesn't mean it is for her.

OP, you have had a shock. You are questioning what you knew about your DH and you obviously feel it is to do with you. I would say it is nothing to do with your sex life and everything to do with him wanting to look at porn.

You tell him how it has made you feel and what you want to do now to move forward.

Him throwing up all day -did you see him? - seems rather OTT though.

Hullygully Mon 03-Sep-12 18:07:56

I had heard Katie, I just thought it couldn't possibly be true. Not really. Not really really really.

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 18:09:50

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TalHotBrunette Mon 03-Sep-12 18:10:08

I would set the screensavers on every device in the house to shots of naked men and drool (actual drool if I could manage it too) over them at every opportunity, sometimes stopping to make a sexist comment or compare his body to your husbands very loudly. Maybe put up a few posters? grin

I can see why you are upset. I don't like porn either.

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 18:10:23

I think it's 1 by the way.

mirry2 Mon 03-Sep-12 18:11:34

i agree with Goldchilled.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Mon 03-Sep-12 18:12:09

i also really don't like the 'he didn't tell you 'cos he knew this would be how you would react' line.

that covers a multitude of sins, unfortunately.

Houseofplain Mon 03-Sep-12 18:12:34

This thread is awful.

Whatever your views are. Op is quite clearly very upset at the time of posting. Hence the extremes. You can tell that.

Are some of you getting of on being so fucking horrible and just plain nasty?

CalamityKate Mon 03-Sep-12 18:15:23

Bonnyday - good point about all men looking at porn except for the ones married to MNers :D

adeucalione Mon 03-Sep-12 18:17:17

I hope that I haven't come over as nasty.

I just wanted to offer an honest perspective and help the OP to see that many do not view it as shocking.

I think that there is a wider debate about whether there is a place for pornography but, as we have it, humans are biologically programmed to respond to images of other people having sex.

mirry2 Mon 03-Sep-12 18:17:24

Houseofplain, she's upset but needs to understand that it isn't a big deal to most people.

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 18:17:55

It makes us want to do the nasty!

janelikesjam Mon 03-Sep-12 18:17:56

I agree, JustFab, I am amazed at the level of ridicule the OP has received.

Also (not directed to OP as such) I also think it is a question of values. Its helpful to find out early on in relationships if you are roughly on the same page as regards values (including attitudes to porn, IMO very early on) so as not to get any nasty shocks further down the line. I don't think you can make assumptions about men either, as some posters have. Some men avoid it, some men make occasionaly light forays and some men view alot of porn that is pretty gruesome tbh. It is not obvious which it might be from appearances either, but if you ask a man he will often tell you, or you can find out. This has been my experience anyway.

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 18:18:40

And by the nasty I mean intercourse, not telling a woman on the internet she's being hysterical.

Houseofplain Mon 03-Sep-12 18:19:10

She doesn't need to "understand" anything. Her feelings are her feelings. Maybe, just maybe she may have looked further into it once she calmed down.

But if you read the thread back via unbiased specs. Some posts are nasty. Plain down right fucking NASTY. No need for it. Talk about a pack.

mirry2 Mon 03-Sep-12 18:24:43

Which posts are nasty? I must have missed them. There lots disagreeing with her but just as many supporting her.

FarloWearsAGoldRibbon Mon 03-Sep-12 18:24:56

Unfortunately there are plenty of people who do not see it as an issue for him to perhaps genuinely think it is normal, and perhaps to not have stopped to think about the exploitation that goes on in producing so much of it, but that is not the same as it being OK and does not take away from your justifiable feelings about it, but it might be a mitigating factor in where you go from here if his attitude to women is usually much better than this. I am really sorry this has happened, OP. You and your DH obviously have a lot of talking to do but I wish you every happiness in the future however this pans out and do not find you unreasonable at all.

Houseofplain Mon 03-Sep-12 18:26:45

I would suggest you read the thread back without the rose tinted specs then mirry.

Those disagreeing with her. Some have done it in a polite manner. Many have not. Many have been snidey and nasty. It's not nice, whatever your views are. No need for it. When one starts. They all follow. Take a step back maybe? It's not aibu.

OwlLady Mon 03-Sep-12 18:28:43

I don't like how any woman who posts a discomfort about porn is insecure either

WHY?

Do you think we are all fat, hairy mingers who turn the lights off and pull our nighties up for sex?

really?

<sigh>

some of us are a bit hairy though wink

Fairenuff Mon 03-Sep-12 18:28:48

I also think it is a question of values. Its helpful to find out early on in relationships if you are roughly on the same page as regards values (including attitudes to porn, IMO very early on) so as not to get any nasty shocks further down the line. I don't think you can make assumptions about men either, as some posters have. Some men avoid it, some men make occasionaly light forays and some men view alot of porn that is pretty gruesome

This post is spot on Jane. My dh and I share the same opinions on porn and the exploitation of women. He doesn't 'use' porn or go to lapdancing clubs, etc. He doesn't like it. We have a daughter and would hate her to be exploited lke some of these women are. They are all someone's daughter, sister, mother, friend. They all have personal stories. Not all men view porn. Not all women think it's acceptable.

EarnestDullard Mon 03-Sep-12 18:28:52

OP, FWIW I don't think you're overreacting if you previously had no idea that your DH was watching porn. I remember finding a porn DVD in amongst DH's video games when we'd been together about 6 months, and I was shocked and upset too at first. Now, a few years down the line, I don't know if he watches any, although I suspect he might, and it's less of a big deal. I'm not a huge fan of the porn industry for lots of reasons, but as long as he's not using it to replace sex with me, I don't mind enough to demand that he doesn't watch any.

Watching a bit of porn doesn't make your DH a "cheat and a deceiver" or some sort of deviant. And what is "acceptable" is purely down to your personal feelings. You need to have a think and have a good chat with DH and decide what you can both live with.

Shakirasma Mon 03-Sep-12 18:34:35

There is nothing in the OP to suggest that her issues are about the ethics of the porn industry. Many people, both men and women are actually unaware of the seedy underbelly and think the 'stars' are doing it voluntarily.

I think her issue is simply that she is upset that her DH is mastubating to films of other people having sex. She clearly asked what is acceptable and what is normal.

The general consensus, and my opinion, is that having a private wank now and again is completely normal, and I am shocked that she is surprised he is doing this. I think it is fair to assume that your partner does do it rather than to assume they don't unless they tell you.

I also think viewing porn, if unaware of the dark side on the industry, is also pretty normal, but private and not something you would announce.

Helltotheno Mon 03-Sep-12 18:34:44

Agree, I think people have been pretty insensitive in ridiculing the OP, but it's fairly predictable on MN. Some women can just never miss an opportunity to tell us how down they are with jacking off to porn and fantasising about random men and .... and ...... ZZZZzzzzzz

OP I totally get it. It's more about the secretiveness of it really, over such a long period of time; it's as if you had one view of your relationship, and it turns out he has a completely opposite one.

I recommend you talk more about it. You haven't ruled out that it's kiddie porn or hardcore stuff, and you shouldn't necessary believe him straight off.

Don't consider this site representative. There are many people who don't use porn (me personally, I'd far prefer erotic literature wink) and you shouldn't be made to feel bad about yourself because you don't like the idea of it.

JustFabulous Mon 03-Sep-12 18:36:23

"Houseofplain, she's upset but needs to understand that it isn't a big deal to most people."

mirry2, why does she need to understand? It is totally irrelevant what other people think. This is about her husband and her relationship. To her, it is a big deal.

Pinkforever Mon 03-Sep-12 18:40:19

I dont think you have over reacted by being upset that your dh has kept this a secret from you. I do think you are over reacting with regards to the porn but the I like watching porn both with dh and by myself.

Talk to your dh about your feelings but personally would not be a deal brraker for me...

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 03-Sep-12 18:40:50

Pictish - *Secret porn use is definitely NOT on - this is taking away energy, time and other resources away from the relationship.

Blethers. That's just not true. At all.*

And your reasoning is.....?

Yes it is true, I have done my research and also sadly I have experienced this to be true sad

There are loads of articles and case studies about men being addicted to porn and how marriages/relationships are being destroyed. Also children are growing up with very warped views of sexuality and women sad

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 03-Sep-12 18:42:26

I am shocked at how nasty some posters are on here - poor OP sad

OP - hope you are ok, your feelings are valid and you have the right to feel this way.

SalomesDance Mon 03-Sep-12 18:42:49

He was physically sick all day? I feel really sorry for him. There was a time, when I was younger and quite insecure about everything, when I would have reacted in exactly the same way as you have done, OP, so I do understand how you are feeling. If I'd caught my husband watching porn I would have assumed he didn't love me or didn't find me attractive any more - but I know now it doesn't mean any such thing. Think about all his good qualities and please forgive him.

Helltotheno Mon 03-Sep-12 18:46:57

If I'd caught my husband watching porn I would have assumed he didn't love me or didn't find me attractive any more

I don't really think that's the aspect that most bothers OP, it certainly isn't the aspect that would most bother me either.

BonnyDay Mon 03-Sep-12 18:48:06

you are both overreacting - him being sick?!

you are being nuts

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 18:50:31

Choc - i'm mot saying it never happens. I know it does. In the case of my own marriage though it is not the case, and nothing even approaching.

Lookm- I'm inclined to agree about the porn industry being exploitative, and that it objectifies women...and that is something I'm currently taking an interest in, as feminist issues often do. I'm not going to argue on the score than porn can be addictive either, for I know that's true too.

BUT - that is not really what's up for discussion on this thread. The issue is the OP's sense of betrayal and shock...which I genuinely feel is an overreaction, given that her marriage is reported to be good.

Adviceinscotland Mon 03-Sep-12 18:52:19

Jeezo poor man!

He has been physically sick over this? How much of a overreaction did you give for this to happen?

My dh watches porn (occasionally) I'm bloody sure I will not be cancelling my broadband so he isn't tempted to have a sneaky wank every few months.

Should I be pissed off that he does not ask my permission to touch his own body? I don't ask his permission to get my rabbit out.

mirry2 Mon 03-Sep-12 18:52:20

Justfabulous - well how else will she be able to deal with the negatve cooments?
The OP posted her concerns on Mumsnet. Some people think she is over reacting; others don't. I haven't made any nasty comments.

CakeMeIAmYours Mon 03-Sep-12 18:57:16

People, even married ones are allowed a private part of their minds - its is unreasonable to expect your DH to share absolutely everything with you.

I don't think he has done anything that needs forgiving, and you need to reset your expectations.

I feel really sorry for the poor man tbh.

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 03-Sep-12 18:58:18

Why does masturbation have to involve using porn?

Many men have managed to wank before the advent of porn and many modern men wank in the shower etc without needing to use porn.

Masturbation is NOT the issue here. Porn is.

CakeMeIAmYours Mon 03-Sep-12 18:59:23

OP, please forgive me for being blunt, but was your DH your first sexual partner? (i.e. have you had limited experience of relationships prior to your marriage?)

CakeMeIAmYours Mon 03-Sep-12 19:01:44

MadAbout It sounds like the porn in question is fairly vanilla.

Had it been some hardcore BDSM porn then I would agree with you.

irrespective of our opinions though, if the OP requires a DH who has/will never use porn then she will be fishing in a very small pond.

Helltotheno Mon 03-Sep-12 19:02:04

That's irrelevant Cake

mirry2 Mon 03-Sep-12 19:02:09

The OP has asked 'what's normal, what's acceptable?'. Other posters have told her what they think.

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 03-Sep-12 19:02:40

It saddens me to see just how many posters on do not care about the fact that women are being abused, raped and injured (some film sets are said to have medical people on standby for stitching) while being filmed in the porn industry sad

Orgasming over these images is so wrong and sick sad

amothersplaceisinthewrong Mon 03-Sep-12 19:04:38

I thought in these days of broadband etc all men looked at Porn.... this would not be a deal breaker for me - my DH has told me he has looked at it but found it all very boring!

babyboomersrock Mon 03-Sep-12 19:05:50

OP, you are entitled to your feelings, and I'd share them. To those who say "most people don't mind porn use", I'd ask - how do you know? Simply because the people you know use it?

There's a whole (healthy, non-prudish) world out there where people of both genders and all sexualities love sex, but don't use porn. Believe me. The porn industry is a sick one, aimed at people with no imagination and no scruples. If they don't know it operates, perhaps they should do some research.

It's dispiriting that so many younger women are willing to accept that their men behave like pathetic adolescents, wanking away in front of a screen every time they're alone. I'm not insecure sexually - never have been - I just want a partner I can respect. There is so much defensiveness on this thread. I wonder why?

Mellower Mon 03-Sep-12 19:08:05

I know it is seen as the "norm" but I detest it, my ex became addicted to watching "teenage porn" to the point of watching it, before work, when I was in bed, anytime I left the house, even in front of my 10 year old who he thought could not see him.

Now and again okay understandable. Not all the time though.

I was once working nightshift in a company, he came with me for "company" he waited until I went to the loo and did it in my workplace, infecting all the PC's, I couldn't tell them he was there so had to say "yes I was watching porn at work"! Totally humiliating.

Alicetravellingviawonderland Mon 03-Sep-12 19:08:23

Thanks for the comments everyone. From the feedback it seems the majority on this forum don't think it's abnormal. Not the greatest career choice for any of our daughters or sons though. I've certainly had a huge reaction and once that settles down your comments will help me find a sensible balance. And yes @ThePigOnTheWall EVERY time I buy shoes I 'reduce' the price as every good woman should LOL. And thanks for the hug @ParaOlympicPark :-) I feel much better and calmer and I'm glad I submitted this post.

mirry2 Mon 03-Sep-12 19:08:40

Oh forgodssake she asked for opinions and she got them.

Alicetravellingviawonderland Mon 03-Sep-12 19:11:12

What a lovely, sensible post - thank you!

BlackTieNTails Mon 03-Sep-12 19:25:45

its normal and natural

ffs even i do it now and again when i get the urge

bogeyface Mon 03-Sep-12 19:30:27

I dont like porn and I dont like H looking at it, but i know that it isnt the worst thing in the world and I wouldnt react like this. All I ask is that he doesnt do it when I am around (not that he would) and doesnt mention it.

Helltotheno Mon 03-Sep-12 19:33:05

it's normal and natural

So when your DD's new acting gig leads to the release of 'BlackTie does Blackpool', you'll be delighted and telling all the rellies will you?

Doubt it somehow.. hmm

Houseofplain Mon 03-Sep-12 19:41:07

Mirry. There is a difference in giving an opinion. Then being just plain nasty and telling people what they should be feeling, thinking, what is normal. That they "need" to understand.

Don't get angry now because people have called you on it hmm

Mellower Mon 03-Sep-12 19:54:10

We used to watch it together pre-internet days, that was fine but teenage porn that was just sick.

JustFabulous Mon 03-Sep-12 19:55:50

"Justfabulous - well how else will she be able to deal with the negatve cooments?
The OP posted her concerns on Mumsnet. Some people think she is over reacting; others don't. I haven't made any nasty comments."

mirry2 - that makes no sense.

mirry2 Mon 03-Sep-12 20:06:26

Houseofplain, who's angry? You are one getting worked up about it all. I think you are being nasty - towards me! I was just responding to the op's post, as was everyone else.

Oakmaiden Mon 03-Sep-12 20:11:00

Hullygully - I don't think it is "fine and dandy".

I have explained to my husband the reasons I strongly dislike it and feel uncomfortable at the thought of him watching it.

However - he is an adult. I have no right to forbid him to watch it.

I try not to think about it now.

Houseofplain Mon 03-Sep-12 20:16:24

*Add message | Report | Message poster mirry2 Mon 03-Sep-12 19:08:40
Oh forgodssake she asked for opinions and she got them*

I am highlighting. There is a world of difference in giving, valid, calm opinions.

To ordering what the op needs to understand. Which you did. Then calling her a prude, hysterical. That op needs to get a grip and wind her neck in. To out right taking the piss. Which the percentage of posts were on this thread up to a point.

thebeesnees79 Mon 03-Sep-12 20:30:42

I am on the fence a little here. op did you really expect your husband to ask permission to look at porn? would that have made you feel better? I very much doubt it.
on the flip side if my husband was looking at porn I would be upset and angry.
Your husband hasn't cheated on you though physically has he? If it was cyber sex where another woman on a web cam was responding then I would totally get your reaction as that imo is one step towards cheating.
Talk to him and tell him you are uncomfortable with porn and he needs to respect your wishes and not look at it anymore. I hope you manage to sort things out but please don't be too hard on him x

bleedingheart Mon 03-Sep-12 20:43:12

I think I would be upset to find out something like this about my partner. When we say we share everything we don't mean every thought and act but if you've been with someone and then find they have a habit or hobby you knew nothing about it can shake you.
If I found out my DH was having a fag every time I went out I'd be shocked and upset.
BTW my DH used porn in a previous relationship (often at the instigation of his ex) but stopped when he saw a documentary about the realities and admits he found it 'unsatisfactory' and viewed it out of boredom and to please his ex. Not every man is furiously self-abusing to youporn the minute their partners leave the room!

mirry2 Mon 03-Sep-12 20:50:25

Houseofplain

'To ordering what the op needs to understand. Which you did. Then calling her a prude, hysterical. That op needs to get a grip and wind her neck in. To out right taking the piss. Which the percentage of posts were on this thread up to a point.'

I think you must have got the wrong poster confused

JustFabulous Mon 03-Sep-12 20:59:07

You said it at 19:08, mirry2.

Houseofplain Mon 03-Sep-12 21:42:54

I haven't confused

tawse57 Mon 03-Sep-12 22:11:08

All you lot whose own sexual issues manifest themselves via disgust that your husband's look at porn - just wait till you discover your son(s) viewing it on a regular basis. Or your daughters for that matter.

If you thing porn is disgusting you really need to seek counselling rather than projecting your issues onto your husbands or sons.

mirry2 Mon 03-Sep-12 22:15:24

Justfabulous and houseplain, I didn't order her to do anything and I certainly didn't call her 'a prude, hysterical. That op needs to get a grip and wind her neck in. To out right taking the piss'.

To say someone needs to do something, especially in the context it was written, is not an order and no reason for reporting my perfectly innocuous remarks.

Southfacing Mon 03-Sep-12 22:15:46

I haven't read the thread and know that my opinion will be unpopular, but I completely understand your reaction, OP. I would feel the same. You're not overreacting. The fact that he did it in secret does constitute a form of betrayal IMO.

I'm sure lots of men look at porn. I still personally think it's wrong and disgusting.

I do think you can work through it if you're both open about it.

Hiding the thread now.

likeatonneofbricks Mon 03-Sep-12 22:24:06

most modern porn is violent/humiliating towards women, I don't see how it's 'nothing' or normal. I could understand if a man had no sex life with his wife but if htey have regular sex it is NOT necessary. If he was single he can do what he likes, but if itupsets his wife , surely it's not WORTH it!?

likeatonneofbricks Mon 03-Sep-12 22:25:13

cross post with South, and i replied not even reaching last page!

babyboomersrock Mon 03-Sep-12 22:27:21

tawse57 - I'd feel exactly the same if any of my sons or my daughter used porn. If something is wrong, it's wrong, even if my children do it.

What an extraordinary suggestion - that we seek counselling. For what, exactly? For thinking that the porn industry is sick, and exploits vulnerable people? Or are you assuming that because some of us despise the use of porn that we have no sex lives ourselves? That's incredibly naive.

likeatonneofbricks Mon 03-Sep-12 22:28:23

tawse, her son isn't married and he is young and learing (not that i think porn gives realistic or loving view of women!), her dh IS married and promised to be faithful forsaking all others, she expected no interest sexually in other women.

likeatonneofbricks Mon 03-Sep-12 22:28:40

learning, not learing

Fairenuff Mon 03-Sep-12 22:30:53

just wait till you discover your son(s) viewing it on a regular basis

That's an interesting point. I did discover my son showing an interest in porn (and he's only just turned 13). I spoke to him about it and explained some of the exploitation that goes on in the porn industry.

I said that it was natural to be curious but what he might see in porn is not what most people experience in a natural, loving relationship, that the sex portrayed in porn is designed to target specific audiences. We also talked about how the women are real people, with real lives and families.

I think it's important to discuss this with our teenagers, when it is appropriate and using appropriate language. My son can get a much more balanced view by discussing this in a safe environment. I would rather he were able to make a informed choice and not just be told that it's normal for men to look at porn and they all do it, therefore implying that if you don't like porn there is something 'wrong' with you.

He is an individual and, as can be seen from all the different replies on this thread will have his own opinion and decide where his own boundaries lie.

mirry2 Mon 03-Sep-12 22:32:23

Houseofplain - This is Goldchilled's post previous to mine that I agreed with 'OP is not that we're not being supportive. You've got the right not to like porn but you're not being fair on your husband. Myself and others are just trying to show you that is not an abnormal thing that he has done. About sharing, that's all very nice, but everyone also has the right to their privacy.'
So offensive that I need reporting?

Mellower Mon 03-Sep-12 22:34:41

Tawse

If you have lived with someone constantly looking at it, hiding doing it, deleting history, finding discs falling out of wardrobes full of it then you would get sick of it to, I was fairly open minded, but teenporn is sick, especially when it's an adult male watching it!!!

As I said earlier we used to watch it together, I remember my father watching it, well hiding a video when I was younger "bills big bananna" and I wtched that too and found it hilarious...my ex just took the piss right out of it and now I hate it so yes I most definitly do have issues with it now.

Not every situation is the same, like I say I try to keep an open mind but when that has been abused it messes with your head. So yes you are correct, my 12 year olds friend was looking at it the other week and I caught him and yes I gave him a huge talking to. My son is not completely innocent and he may look at it but I would hope never to the level his sperm donor did, although the steroids may explain some of it, he was addicted.

likeatonneofbricks Mon 03-Sep-12 22:35:57

good point, Fairenuff. lots of teenagers learn seriously nasty attitudes from porn, and getting it in the open as a mother is the best thing you can do.

MrsJohnMurphy Mon 03-Sep-12 22:38:52

I'm kind of on the fence too, obviously pretty much any "free" porn on the internet is almost universally horrid and degrading to women, I think you would have to be quite determined to find porn which showed a mutually satisfactory experience with no abuse whatsoever.

But on the other hand, I don't think your dh actually resolved to lead a secret life, I think people do deserve a private life, even in a relationship. I doubt he ever thought "Oh I'll keep Alice in the dark regarding my occasional wanks to internet porn" he probably just thought that it was a private thing.

Honestly I have seen such random stuff on the internet half of it links from here I'm sure an objective view of my whole google history would be horrifying. I'm not a deviant, but my internet history is my business, I get really really fucked off if dp views my posts here, which he has in the past. In turn when I cared was paranoid I have searched his history.

I don't think it would be fair to end your relationship over this, you need to communicate, by his reaction I'm sure he would be happy to forgo the porn, he sounds mortified.

EugenesAxe Mon 03-Sep-12 22:51:12

I think getting over their DPs watching porn is something virtually all women have to do. Sooo many men watch it in the circumstances your husband describes (and others no doubt). It's no reflection of the woman or the relationship.

I would try to forget and understand it's nothing personal.

likeatonneofbricks Mon 03-Sep-12 23:00:11

we don't know the actual facts though, as to how many married men or those in sexually fulfilling r-ships watch it. Apart from those who are satisfied enough with the real sex and don't need more, there are those with not much interest in sex, and there are also men with high morals you know, who think it's wrong. Men in sexless marriages are a different matter (unless also in the last category).

maleview70 Mon 03-Sep-12 23:02:35

Mrs JM...you can find porn that is not one sided and does seem to show mutually satisfying experiences as there is now a big market for porn aimed at women. Whether most men who use porn search for this though is very debatable. Men can be exposed to porn from a very young age and nowadays it's not even a home laptop that is needed. You can access it readily on iPhone for example.

Clearly it affects the OP and other posters and doesnt affect others.

ItsNotUnusualToBe Mon 03-Sep-12 23:18:48

Hi Alicetravellingviawonderland. I could have written your opening post 17months ago. The only things I would have added is that I was pregnant at the time and DH knew exactly how I feel about porn - I'm firmly with the Radical Feminists on this one.

It's taken a lot of time for me to stop being hurt by the lies. But I do now feel that it was a bump in the road that's behind us and I trust him again. I was so so damn sad that he wasn't the man I thought he was but I can now finally see that more or less, he is a decent man.

Be kind to yourself. Hope he can work out how he can deserve to regain your trust.

Numberlock Mon 03-Sep-12 23:24:23

Does him masturbating bother you OP or specifically the porn use? I presume you also masturbate, do you always tell him when you have done so?

Luckystar96 Mon 03-Sep-12 23:24:32

My Son is nearly 13 and I am worried about what he could access on the Internet . I know he looked up "porn" on the iPad as I saw it in the recent searches. I know at this point he was just curious to find out what it actually meant, but I have a H who has always looked at porn and IMO it has led to real problems in our sex life. I just think its too young and damaging for a young teenager to see that type of thing ( I have looked at H's Internet history and the porn is so anti women and degrading, and the language in the titles is so violent it's much more hard core than the videos and mags etc that were around years ago.) I would love some advice on how to block these types of sites on the computer.
I did think the OP was over reacting and a little naive, although she isn't alone in disliking porn and wishing for a more honest partner. It must have been a shock to discover he'd been keeping something secret if under the impression that they had a perfect relationship, whatever the secret.

Do you share your sexual fantasies with your husband, Alice?
Do you tell him what you are thinking about when indulging in some "self loving?"

Your sexual fantasies are private, they belong to you, and unless you engage in sharing your fantasies with each other while pleasing yourselves (masturbating ) together, then I dont see why he should tell you he has been using online porn as a masturbation aid.

I can imagine the conversation, haphazardly over dinner, putting the fork down:

"Hey, Alice, you know those online porn sites? I use those when masturbating, to help me come. What about you?"

I guess this is where Alice would pick up he pitch fork and spoon ....

That is what it is. It is not cheating, or not deceit. He probably did not think it was such a big deal. You are overreacting.

As for porn. In theory, I dont agree with it. But that is by the by.

pictish Mon 03-Sep-12 23:29:47

Omg Quint you just articulated my point of view so well! I have clumsily blathered on this thread, but I meant what you said. To a tee.

scarlettsmummy2 Mon 03-Sep-12 23:35:17

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

likeatonneofbricks Mon 03-Sep-12 23:40:02

fantasies while masturbating aren't the same as watching porn, for a start they don't tend to be violent or degrading for most or at least many people. It's not the same as watching real women with their bodies in graphic detail being used as sex objects. Fantasies for may involve celebs or people they ve never seen naked but jus fancy, maybe random strangers, or indeed own partner but in unusual scenarios like being watched etc. Or god forbid just purely own partner based on what happened last time thye had sex. There is no real harm to real women in just THINKING about sex, or looking at skimpily dressed young women walking around and fantasising a bit.

likeatonneofbricks Mon 03-Sep-12 23:44:57

I think Op doesn't seriously think of ending marriage, but they need to talk and if this, or anything else, makes her unhappy he should listen and see what's more important for him (and vice versa). the good thing is, he doesn't sound addicted.

MammyToMany Tue 04-Sep-12 00:00:43

I think for me OP it would depend on a few things:

Have you ever asked him if he uses online porn and he's said no? Which means he's lied to you.

Did he know how you feel about porn and that you would be upset about it and carry on and do it any way? So decieving you.

I suppose he would have to delete the history with it being a family computer.

My ex used to hide in the bathroom and look at porn on his phone, or use the laptop and delete history, denying all knowledge etc - that used to upset me as he was deliberately setting out to hide it from me, so my problem wasn't with the porn (although I don't like it and some of the things he was looking at made me feel ill) but with the lies - I hate being lied too.

If he had no clue how you feel and hasn't lied to you about it then I would probably let it go - although if he carried on and tried to keep it a secret I would think we had a problem.

In 8 years he's been a good and attentive husband (I'm assuming), he's still the same man.

Although to be honest, when I found what exp had been looking at it changed the way I looked at him, I suddenly found him sleazy and cheap and lost a lot of respect for him. But, that is how it made me feel and he knew I would feel that way. Which is why he hid it. I couldn't decide whether he had a right to view porn and fantasise to it (after all I use a vibrator) or whether I should insist he respects my feelings and stop (but would I have thrown my vibrator away had he have asked?) I have no problem with him masterbating as long as he doesn't wake me up but the whole porn industry makes me feel queasy and it also made me feel insecure about myself.

So, in summery, my long ramble concludes me to say: I don't know blush and you have my sympathy.

tubsandedward Tue 04-Sep-12 00:49:18

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

bogeyface Tue 04-Sep-12 02:42:33

MrTubs I have reported you as although I feel that the OP is over reacting, your post is just horrible.

And no I am not particularly sensitive, but this was just uncalled for.

Unfortunately mick, stupid, childish posts like yours only fuel the flames for the 'all porn users are as bad as rapists' brigade!! Ffs, can't you make a point about your porn/masturbation habits without resorting to crude language and insults?

Fwiw, essentially I understand the gist of what you are saying, but you couldn't have worded it any worse!!!

I am a female, and I know my dh uses porn occasionally, which I don't mind about in the slightest. He doesn't tell me when he does, but the odd time I've noticed history etc. We have also used it together, and shock horror, I have been known to look at it on my own. I resent the insinuation that I am either actually a man masquerading as a women, or a 'failure' to the female population! I don't consider myself 'hip' or 'cool' either, and don't strive to appear so.

I am just a normal woman, with a happy marriage and a healthy sex life (when not sick and pregnant). I don't deny that there are certain parts of the porn industry which are exploitative to women, but disagree strongly that it is all like this. I have two friends, and an ex who were in the industry themselves and they would laugh if anyone were to refer to them as exploited.

OP, I can understand your shock, but in answer to your question, it's not unusual for men, and women of all ages to look at porn occasionally, and very few are addicted or need counselling. Unless you have already made it clear to your dh that you find porn use unacceptable or feel he has outright lied to you about his use of it, then IMHO, I think it would be very unfair on him to throw him out or ask him to seek counselling. Maybe now is the time to discuss your feelings and boundaries wrt porn use, but also as an adult, you cannot forbid him to do something which he does in private (although he may well out of consideration to you decide not to do it any longer). He shouldn't be made to feel dirty or ashamed though, just as he shouldn't make you feel that way for eg. using a vibrator in private or reading erotic literature.

I hope you two can work this out, and am glad you say you are feeling a lot calmer now. Take care.

dranksinatra Tue 04-Sep-12 07:57:56

Same old mass debate about masturbation..
The ones who don't like never will, and the rest, ahem, get on with it.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 04-Sep-12 08:11:29

To those who watch porn and are women or have daughters/sisters - can you tell us how you can justify getting off knowing that the women in the film are probably from a background of abuse and rape?

Fairenuff Tue 04-Sep-12 08:18:32

Does OP object to masturbation though?

Or porn?

They are not the same thing. Fantasies do not harm anyone. Porn harms a lot of women.

I feel more worried for my dd than my ds because I hope to god her boyfriends don't grow up thinking that what is depicted in porn is what a sexual relationship is all about. I am going to make damn sure that she knows she does not have to be treated like that by any man in her future relationships.

Masturbation is completely different. Most people do it and as far as I am aware, no-one objects to it.

And you know that all these women are 'probably' from a history of abuse and rape? How exactly? What about the people who I, and others know who are categorically not from that kind of background or anything like it? Of course, they are all going to be the minority now I'm sure. hmm

I'm sorry, but all pornography is not filmed using abused and raped women (or men).

2wwmadness Tue 04-Sep-12 08:22:50

Your over reacting. Massively.

Houseofplain Tue 04-Sep-12 08:26:05

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SobaSoma Tue 04-Sep-12 08:26:30

What Quint says smile

SirBoobAlot Tue 04-Sep-12 08:34:24

Have you asked him outright before if he looks at porn and he's denied it, or has it just not come up and you've come across this?

If the former, then yes you have the right to feel a bit stung.
If the later you need to get a grip, really.

Lots of men and women look at porn. Its not all degrading crap. A lot of free porn is now from "normal" couples uploading their home videos. Professional porn I feel a bit more negative about.

Think you're overreacting to claim he's addicted - if he was addicted, he'd been on them constantly, and running up bills to look at pay for sites. Obviously its upset you, so you need to talk to him about it, but also think you need to relax a bit.

adrastea Tue 04-Sep-12 08:41:17

To those who watch porn and are women or have daughters/sisters - can you tell us how you can justify getting off knowing that the women in the film are probably from a background of abuse and rape?
I've actually seen porn being made (some friends were in it) and that was made by a big UK producer, and I've met some other people who have done it too. I really don't think it has the same ethical issues as prostitution at all and I really disagree with with the idea that it's all/mostly violent or degrading. There is ethically produced porn, just like there are some ethically produced diamonds.

I don't know the answer. I'm quite happy to be taken to task over the ethics by anyone who boycotts companies like Nestle, doesn't own a diamond, researches the working conditions of every single of item of clothing they purchase, doesn't take drugs, only eats ethically produced chocolate etc.

adrastea Tue 04-Sep-12 08:42:18

OP, I hope you are feeling better today and are able to talk to your husband about the issues surrounding your discovery. I think it does make a difference as to whether he actively lied about it, or just didn't tell you.

mirry2 Tue 04-Sep-12 08:47:37

Houseofplain could you please tell me what I've done? I'm completely bewildered by your remarks. You've headed up your last post with my name so is the 'stealth troll' remark also directed at me? What do you mean by that?

Houseofplain Tue 04-Sep-12 08:52:45

No it wasn't aimed at you. That's why I used a paragraph.

It's also why in the quote I used about the nastiness I used a sentence. "what op needs to understand is". You telling op what she needs to think. Next sentence what other people said.

Sweet Jesus.

mirry2 Tue 04-Sep-12 08:59:16

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Houseofplain Tue 04-Sep-12 09:02:27

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Mumblepot26 Tue 04-Sep-12 09:14:33

Perhaps it depends how old op is? I am 40 and I know all the men in my life have used porn and I have no problem with it

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 04-Sep-12 09:23:34

*And you know that all these women are 'probably' from a history of abuse and rape? How exactly? What about the people who I, and others know who are categorically not from that kind of background or anything like it? Of course, they are all going to be the minority now I'm sure.

I'm sorry, but all pornography is not filmed using abused and raped women (or men).*

If you do your research, many "performers" will have either been trafficked, forced or groomed into the industry. Some who go in willingly have been made to do acts that they didn't consent to. Many performers often had difficult childhoods and experiences which meant they are more vulnerable to being pushed into porn.

You have to look very hard to find ethical porn - even home made films might have been sent in without full consent of the other partner. The vast majority of online porn is what you would call "mainstream" i.e made by non ethical producers.

As for the fact that that the women you are watching may not have been abused - how would you know? even if only one woman was abused, I still wouldn't want to take part in this horrible industry.

You can't compare food, clothes etc with the sex industry - you can't exactly go without food and clothes but surely you can go without needing to use porn. There are alternatives - e,g erotic books, your imagination....

Hyperballad Tue 04-Sep-12 09:32:47

Hi Alice, only just seen your post now and I haven't read through the whole thread so forgive me if this is a little outdated but:

For you , in your circumstances, I don't think this is anything to worry about. You have said that you are happily married with a good sex life. To me this means there isn't a problem.

I'm afraid I agree with your husband that most men do watch porn and he probably didn't tell you because after being with you for such a long time he would have k own how you'd have reacted.

You say you don't no whether to believe him. Well there is nothing to say he is lying is there?

I think that counselling etc for your husband is an overreaction, I think he loves you very much to say that he'll go. The problem I see is that you are kind of proving to him why he should have not told you about it.

As hard as it will be I think you need to try and relax a little bit and really listen to what he says about it without telling him conditions etc without fully understanding him. If he says he only watches it occasionally then why not believe him?

You have a happy life and a good husband, IMO you still have a happy life and a good husband.

No, but if you cared all that much about exploitation then you could source ethically produced food, clothing etc, but you don't do you.....

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 04-Sep-12 09:41:58

Yes I do actually smile do you?

Fwiw I do, but in that case what was the point of your post above

You can't compare food, clothes etc with the sex industry - you can't exactly go without food and clothes but surely you can go without needing to use porn. There are alternatives - e,g erotic books, your imagination....

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 04-Sep-12 09:52:31

Some some people the choice to buy non ethically produced food/clothes is restricted by their economics - not everyone can afford organic. Choosing to wank over mainstream porn is not the same as choosing to buy farmed chicken to feed one's family when on a very limited budget.

RabidAnchovy Tue 04-Sep-12 09:56:51

Love the way this thread went from choking the chicken to buying free range chickens grin

Hyperballad Tue 04-Sep-12 09:58:02

Sorry one more thing, I think your husband needs to hear from you that you still love him. I hope you can get yourself to a position quickly where you can give him a big hug and tell him that you love him. I really feel for both of you but he needs to know quickly that although your still shocked you are sorry for overreacting.

Offred Tue 04-Sep-12 10:02:17

Masturbation and porn are completely separate things IMO.

I am quite hmm at all of you telling the op how she is meant to feel about porn.

I also think it doesn't matter about what other people do, or what is "normal". What matters is how you feel.

You have had a big reaction to this and I think it would be wise to examine the reasons why. Is it the secrecy? Is it the porn? Is it using the family computer? Is it all three and/or other things? Why do you feel so strongly? Have you had a discussion about porn with your dh before? Then you will be able to have a more rational and productive discussion about how each of you feels and how you move forward.

Offred Tue 04-Sep-12 10:05:04

I also don't think it makes it better if he kept it secret because he knew she would react badly, that is really crappy behaviour towards a partner IMHO.

Mumsyblouse Tue 04-Sep-12 10:05:17

You may have initially overreacted (counselling, giving up on marriage) but equally, you don't have to underreact now if you don't want to. It's up to the two people concerned to decide what is and isn't ok in terms of porn use, I wouldn't want my husband regularly doing this in the family home or on the family computer, I just don't want it in my personal space. We agree on this and I don't go snooping about when he's away.

Finding your dad watching porn in your own home is deeply disturbing, let me tell you. Using the family computer would be an absolute no no for me.

It's up to you, now you have calmed down a bit, to talk it through. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to accept porn use into your relationship, just because some people are fine with it. Good for them- now decide what is ok between the two of you.

adrastea Tue 04-Sep-12 10:33:02

Some some people the choice to buy non ethically produced food/clothes is restricted by their economics - not everyone can afford organic.
True, although what I was saying had nothing to do with buying organic or free range! Many people do have a choice and just choose not to think about about trafficked and abused women and children making their clothes for a penny or the many thousands of babies dying horrible deaths due to unethical practices by companies like Nestle or child slavery when they eat chocolate or the deaths involved in them having a pretty bauble on their finger.

mumsyblouse Good post. It is up to each couple what is OK in their relationship.

Bluemary3000 Tue 04-Sep-12 10:57:04

Me and DH have used porn in the past together and seperatly. I personally have no issue with it and find it strange that people think any differently. That was until I met my mates new GF about 6 yrs ago and she was totally opposed to it as she felt it was all sex workers and women forced to do it. We had a conversation about it and I can see her point of view even I dont agree with it. She still doesn't like it - each to their own!
Someone should have told Jenna Jameson that in the height of her career that she was being forced. Although from what I gather, she has schooled herself and her brother and is producing films not starring and earning a fortune doing something she enjoys.
If I were you, i would explain how you feel about the porn itself and the fact that he has had to keep it secret from you. Its not a deal breaker for me, just a dip in the road that needs ironing out.

bobbledunk Tue 04-Sep-12 13:01:34

Most men do watch it, I know dp does when I'm not around..grin, my attitude is that as long as it is non violent with fully adult females then I don't care. If it was gay porn (or worse, kiddie stuff) he was into, you'd have a problem!

Houseofplain Tue 04-Sep-12 13:10:30

I can't actually believe. Gay porn and child porn have been mentioned in the same sentence.

How utterly offensive hmm

thebeesnees79 Tue 04-Sep-12 13:19:40

house of plain I too am shocked shock

Oakmaiden Tue 04-Sep-12 13:37:24

Houseofplain & beesnees

I do see what bobbledunk means, though. I don't think she is comparing them for moral "wrongness" - as you say, one is heinious and the other simply a matter of choice - but neither would bode well for a marriage...

OliveandJim Tue 04-Sep-12 13:46:47

I feel sorry for your poor DH, counseling, breaking up a 21 year marriage because of that, seriously? Is the poor man not allowed to have a secret garden? Does he have to report everything he does? Are you his teacher? That'd be a deal breaker for rme, someone wanting to be part of every aspect of my life, all the time. How claustrophobic. What freedom is he allowed then?

Spuddybean Tue 04-Sep-12 14:25:07

Hi OP, Hope you are feeling a bit better today. I have just stumbled across this thread so apologies if i'm a bit late to the discussion.

From your posts it seems that there are 2 separate issues. 1 is porn - which a lot of people don't like on principle, but do not mind their partners masturbating. 2 is the 'deception' you feel from having one aspect of your husbands life you are not part of.

It appears the 2nd issue is what is upsetting you most. The 1st is a personal choice of what you feel about the exploitative nature of porn. However, the second is more complicated and, i think, i bit more unusual. I think you may want to question why you feel you must be a part of every aspect of your partners life. Even if you are friends and share everything it is not unusual to have things just to oneself. In fact i think most people would find it necessary.

My DP and i are very close but we expect the other to have some privacy and space to have individual pursuits. If the other was masturbating instead of having sex then that would be an issue. But if it is as well as then neither of us are bothered.

FWIW i hate the ALL men look at porn opinion, and that if it's 'normal' it is better than (gay or child!!! shock that they are said together). DP doesn't look at porn because he has fetishes so the things he looks at might be worse for some people but personally i would rather someone get titilated over inanimate objects than exploiting vulnerable people. However, i often fantasise about women (not because i am gay) so don't see why my DP can't fantasise about men etc. I would be much more distressed (and would feel irrationally rejected) to find out DP had been looking at more beautiful/young/fit women than me. So tbh i'd rather a bit of gay!

Anyway, i suppose the upshot of what i'm rambling saying is that it is quite unhealthy to want to be part of every aspect of anothers life. I do hope you feel better tho OP. I know it can be a shock and i have felt betrayed over similar before.

RabidAnchovy Wed 05-Sep-12 14:33:07

I agree with OliveAndJim, poor husband

Numberlock Wed 05-Sep-12 14:40:22

However, i often fantasise about women ... so don't see why my DP can't fantasise about men etc

I'm glad you mentioned that, Spuddy. I enjoy female fantasies too and was curious as to why it was said above that a man watching gay porn wouldn't bode well for the marriage? Why not?

JustinBoobie Wed 05-Sep-12 15:18:06

Everyone on this thread advocating porn needs to do their research. It's a fucking disgusting industry.

What could come next? Little bit of dirty chat, webcams, meeting a stranger, prostitutes... It does happen, in real life. Fact. Not all the time, but it DOES. The op is right to react, to question, to make her DH think about how his actions affect HER. This is NEW to HER and her reaction is valid FOR HER.

But, think about it? Using a stranger off the internet to get a cheap thrill and have a wank??? EWWW!!!!!!!!!

bubalou Wed 05-Sep-12 15:21:42

OH my!

This is in my opinion a huge over reaction.

Your poor DH being made to feel so guilty for something that almost all men and a lot of women do.

Men are very visually stimulated and they are bought up into a culture where porn mags, dvd's, internet etc is the norm.

I do not care one bit if my DH looks at porn - I don't even mind watching it together. I also don't mind if he checks out other women or goes to lap dancing clubs - which he doesn't before you all tell me he's a pig.

When it was his stag do I got told by the best man where they were taking him (famous lap dancing / strip club) - I gave them £50 and told them to treat him to some dances.

I don't care. I'm not insecure, my husband loves me, I love him. I wouldn't expect him to be pissed off that I went to see the dream boys on a hen do!

You need to ask why are you so hurt by all this? I understand the secrecy thing but is that just a cover up for you being upset he's looking at porn?

Does it REALLY matter?

leguminous Wed 05-Sep-12 15:43:00

Oh crikey. Wanking over the sight of a stranger is not inherently EWWW. Lovey dovey partnered sexuality is not the only valid kind. The porn industry can be horrendous, but IF you can find some ethically produced porn, there is nothing dreadful about getting off on it. I know what my husband jerks off to and am happy with it. He doesn't know what I jerk off to because it's extremely personal and I don't feel comfortable sharing it. I have no problem keeping it secret from him because everyone deserves a little privacy.

Not every porn user is addicted. Not every porn user will end up seeing prostitutes. Not everything is a gateway into doom, abuse, relationship breakdown and STDs. Yes, it happens. People get addicted to alcohol, too, but in the absence of any reason to fear he's got an alcohol problem, I don't require my husband to tell me every time he has a beer.

Fairenuff Wed 05-Sep-12 16:18:06

I don't understand why so many posters are telling the op she is wrong because she has a different opinion to them. Porn watching is a personal decision. Some will love it, some will hate it and some will be indifferent.

But the op has already said how she feels. Why try to change her feelings, when they are natural to her?

Just because you are ok with your dh watching porn, doesn't mean that everyone is, and vice versa.

OP did ask, what's normal, what's acceptable and I think the only answer to that is that it depends on each individual's personal boundaries.

Alice I suggest you have a good think about what exactly it is that you think upsets you and talk to your dh about it as much as you feel you need to. Also, listen to his opnions and see where you can both agree to take it from there.

It might also help to do a little research into the porn industry and share what you find him. He might completely change his mind if he knew how many vulnerable women are exploited.

littlebluechair Wed 05-Sep-12 16:25:04

I would be less able to 'deal with it' if my dh was watching much of what is deemed 'mainstream' porn, with its mass abuse of (primarily) women, than I would to find out he was having a physical affair. I hate hate hate the portrayal of women in mainstream porn, the casual portrayal of violent and degrading acts.

I know disliking porn marks one out as a dangerous radical, but <shrugs> there you go, that's me.

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 16:27:57

Looking at porn is very common among men.. they're different to us women. They are more visually turned on where as for us, its more mental.
It doesnt mean he loves u any less, maybe he's just curious after 21 years of marriage.
Men look at porn, and most of the female population have read fifty shades lol, not much difference really, we all have fantasies... Its better that he's looking at it than going out and actually doing it isnt it?
Maybe he kept it a secret coz he was worried about how you would react.. why dont u look at some together? U might surprise urself and enjoy it, watching porn together boosts alot of sex lifes that have gone stale.
As long as it isnt an addiction, and he isnt choosing to watch porn over making love to u, i dont think u have anything to worry about

Fairenuff Wed 05-Sep-12 16:29:29

I think it shows you have empathy littleblue smile

Houseofplain Wed 05-Sep-12 16:34:41

and most of the female population have read fifty shades lol

Shit wasn't it? That's not a thing to shout about you know. That so many women are finding such an unerotic read about a dysfunctional relationship. Sexually exciting or a good read.

AnyFucker Wed 05-Sep-12 16:41:02

OP how are things now, are you ok ? Have you talked with your husband ?

I would like to say though, I haven't and will never, read 50 Shades, just for the record

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 16:45:28

HouseOfPain
There are lots of women that didnt like fifty shades, but probably twice as many who did. It didnt become such a massive seller for nothing.
Many women idolise the fictional character christian grey, we all have fantasies and we live them out through books, movies, porn etc... It doesnt neccesarily mean its something we would enjoy in reality though.

I read it. I wish I hadn't. I threw it in the bin afterwards.

bubalou Wed 05-Sep-12 17:02:40

I read them.

I enjoyed some of the sex parts that was written but the rest was not well written, i found the female character annoying and although Christian did sound unrealistically hot that is not a man that i would fantasise over or in real life go any where near!

Not necessarily bcoz of the kiny fuckery (although to hard core for me) but because off the over the top, controlling craziness.

Houseofplain Wed 05-Sep-12 17:04:56

With all due respect. If could pick out the people who liked them.

By their postings.

Grown women are littering their posts with Americanisms such as oh my and txt spk.

AnyFucker Wed 05-Sep-12 17:09:38

The women who liked FSOG are often to be found making FB status updates about how they are "going off to bed with Mr Gray"

Spare us, please.

It is also a myth that the women who object to porn, LDC's and strip joints are "insecure"

Quite the opposite, IME

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 17:09:42

I read all 3 of the fifty shades books out of curiosity, i wanted to see if they lived up to the hype.
For me personally, they didnt. But ALOT of women must have this s&m/bondage/submissive fantasy, otherwise the book wouldnt be selling at the rate it is, and the hype surrounding it would be non existent

AnyFucker Wed 05-Sep-12 17:11:41

It is also true that there are a lot of copies of FSOG going for 50p in charity shops grin

Houseofplain Wed 05-Sep-12 17:12:21

That book isn't accurate to those fetishes at ALL. It is dangerous actually to suggest it is.

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 17:14:59

Regardless of what its going for, its still a massive seller. Millions of women have read it & loved it. But that doesnt mean its something they would partcipate in themselves. Reading books, watching porn etc.. its a safe way to live out fantasies.
As long as it isnt child porn or beastiality, rape etc... I dont see any harm in it.
Its a case of each to their own.

AnyFucker Wed 05-Sep-12 17:15:00

If SGB says the book is shit, unrealistic and actually nothing to do with the true S+M experience then I am going along with her. She knows about these things ! smile

OP if you are there, give us a shout, love. The conversation is moving on as often happens when the OP does a disappearing act.

AnyFucker Wed 05-Sep-12 17:17:36

"Mummy don't torture me any more" (with myriad variations on a theme) and other such MiseryLit are also best sellers

'nuff said

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 17:20:37

Yes. But people dont read those kind of books to live out a sexual fantasy. And if they do, they clearly have issues.

AnyFucker Wed 05-Sep-12 17:20:53

Joona, and you are 100% certain are you that the porn you and your partner enjoy doesn't use underage workers and no-one is coerced in any way at all ?

AnyFucker Wed 05-Sep-12 17:23:07

You said that fsog was top of the best seller list as if that implied something good. I disagree and have illustrated why. I would also add that the so-called autobiographies of people like Kerry Katona/Katie Price top bestseller lists too. Which further strengthens my point.

Hijacking this thread to say hi to AnyFucker !! Hiiiiiii hun.. <Stercus Accidit> :D How the devil are ya!

And OP.. the worst thing about IPorn is the crap it dumps on your computer. Ban him from using it especially if its a family one and get him to buy dvd's or mags .. if it upsets you greatly then he best learn how to keep them in his own little place .. sorry that its upset you so much, i'm one of the 'if its 'normal' as in age of participants ect, i don't mind and will actually watch it myself too, anything else i won't allow, and yes i know my 15 year old DS has been subjected to it and while i didn't fly off the handle i did say not on the family pc.

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 17:27:38

AnyFucker
If u read my previous posts, you will notice that i mentioned child porn.. this includes anyone under the age of consent.
I agree that there is some porn out there which is extremely disturbing, and anyone who watches that kind of stuff is not worthy of being called a human being.
But its not all like that, if its just normal, main stream porn i dont see a problem with it.

TwentyOneAlways Wed 05-Sep-12 17:28:45

It's porn ..... Not an affair wink
He doesn't sound addicted and I think you need to educate yourself in why he watches it. DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY, my fella watches it too and our sex life is fab!

AnyFucker Wed 05-Sep-12 17:35:26

But how do you know it's "normal" joona ?

How do you know that housewife with her legs spread wasn't uploaded to YouPorn by an abusive partner ? How do you know whether she has properly consented ? How do you know that girl sucking a dozen cocks one after the another isn't doing it for her next fix ?

How do you know that those "18yo nymphos" (a popular search on "normal, mainstream" porn available at the click of one button) are not really 15yo ?

The answer ? You don't. But if your orgasm trumps any little quibbles about what might be actually behind that "normal, mainstream" porn, then I guess one wouldn't like to think too deeply about that.

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 17:37:58

And AnyFucker
I did say FSOG is a best seller, but not because im trying to portray it as a good thing... Simply as an example that women have fantasies too. Having read that book through sheer curiosity i can safley say it is not to my taste, but thousands of other women will disagree...

I know its only fiction, but the first book in that series is extremely degrading to women.. yet so many still love it.
Probably the same women who are unhappy about their partners watching porn because thats degrading..
And as i said, some of it is, but not all of it.

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 17:42:16

I could return your question AnyFucker, and ask why you are under the impression that anyone who stars in a porn movie is being forced into it for one reason or another?

AnyFucker Wed 05-Sep-12 17:45:48

Your turn around question doesn't work, joona

Because, for me, just one person who had been coerced for my viewing pleasure would be one person too many.

So unless I could be sure that no people, not one, not ever had been abused on camera to enhance my orgasm, then I will condemn it and judge people who blithely use pornography without actually thinking about what they are doing

There are lots of ways to get sexual pleasure without taking the risk, IMO

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 17:53:36

What about the kind where the actresses choose to go to castings/auditions, and get paid £300 for an hours work?

AnyFucker Wed 05-Sep-12 18:01:16

What about it ?

How do you know which of those women are truly making a choice for themselves and not one for an abusive partner ? What about men who "star" in porn ? A dream job ? I don't think so.

The fact remains, you cannot know by just looking at what is on the screen. You take the risk someone is being abused for you to wank over when you use porn.

Some porn may be less "risky" in that respect, but supporting the sex industry supports all of it, IMO. And that includes the lowest common denominator. Because for every "£300 an hour choicey porn starlet" there are countless others getting damaged physically, mentally and emotionally in an industry that objectifies women and reams up more and more ways to hurt and humiliate them with every year that passes.

AnyFucker Wed 05-Sep-12 18:01:35

dreams

Houseofplain Wed 05-Sep-12 18:15:38

Men look at porn, and most of the female population have read fifty shades lol, not much difference really, we all have fantasies... Its better that he's looking at it than going out and actually doing it isnt it?

That's was you wasn't it? Joona?

CakeMeIAmYours Wed 05-Sep-12 18:15:48

Like it or not, Humans are multi-faceted creatures: there will always be a darker, unpalatable side to our natures. This includes our sexuality.

Personally, porn leaves me cold (mainly for the reasons AF states) but it is a part of a lot of people's lives. What can you do? Single-handedly change the nature of the human psyche? Even if you could, I'm not convinced that there would be a net gain to the world.

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 18:39:11

This whole thread has been taken out of context. Ops initial worry was wether the fact her husband has been watching porn means he has been decieiving her.. can she trust him, does it mean he is bored of their sex life, will he be tempted to cheat etc...
I used fifty shades as an example to show that lots of women also use this as a type of porn... It is porn with no pictures but the mental aspect of it is the same.. living out a fantasy u wouldnt neccesarily indulge in.
The fact her husband watches porn doesnt mean it will obviously lead to him cheating.. many happy couples with healthy sex lives use porn as part of foreplay. If a man is going to cheat, they dont need porn to make them do it.
If a woman reads fifty shades & enjoys it, does that automatically mean she will go out and find someone to dominate her? No.

DrHolmes Wed 05-Sep-12 18:43:17

Complete over reaction. No wonder he didn't tell you! Stop making an issue out of it. WHy don't you watch some too? Or even with him? It's not like guys come out and say "i watched porn today" it's just expected! Get over it.

Houseofplain Wed 05-Sep-12 18:52:38

Fifty shades isn't about domination. He's not a dom. He's abusive. Just wanted to clarify. If that's porn. Then I must be pure filth as its not in the slightest sexually stimulating.

See grouping genders together with far reaching comments, like most do this x, most do that x. It's not that simple. A lot of people I know who read fsog. Are sheeple. Who admit to having a bit of a dud sex life. Or aren't with the greatest partners. So think the lead is great. Not to mention those who just don't want to go against the grain. With the press another women saying. Everyone is reading it and it's amazing.

It's also amazing that you'd suggest it's better for a man to do something you aren't happy with, or risk him cheating.

Ops uncomfortable. That is allowed she is allowed to prrocess her feelings. You can't just tell someone to suck up behaviour they find unacceptable to stop their dhs from cheating. Where would you draw the line?

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 18:58:20

Im not trying to tell her she should suck up his behaviour. Nor am i saying she is wrong for feeling uncomfortable about it. Different people have different limits, she knows what hers are.
She asked for opinions, which is what i have given. Nobody says she has to agree.

CakeMeIAmYours Wed 05-Sep-12 19:01:10

You can't just tell someone to suck up behaviour they find unacceptable

Hmm, to a certain extent, but neither should you try to change another adult's behaviour just because you find it unacceptable.

There does come a point at which you do have to either suck it up or get your coat.

Too much misery is caused (on both sides) by attempts to change behaviours in others.

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 19:03:57

Re he's not a dom. He's abusive
Whatever he is, millions of women get off on reading this book (although im not one of them) .. but does that mean that they want to be abused as u put it?
If a man watches porn, does that mean he's bored with his sex life and wants to sleep with somebody else?
The answer to both of these questions is no.

Houseofplain Wed 05-Sep-12 19:06:40

Well exactly. You have an adult discussion. Find out where your boundaries are. If they aren't compatible. Then that's it really isn't it?

But if op feels the way she does, then that's her feelings. It's her reaction. Is valid to her. Yelling at her to snap out of it, get over it, educate herself, move on. Isn't any good for her. She needs to process why she feels the way she does first.

Houseofplain Wed 05-Sep-12 19:10:57

You were singing the praises of fsog earlier joona hmm.

You are getting yourself into waters here, I don't think you understand. There is a huge difference between a fictional book and porn with real people.

Now then. I think you've fallen prey to a common misconception. That those who have an issue with porn. Are some how insecure, worried about their dps fantasising. In which case. I see your comparision. I've never said anything about my views on it fwiw. I deliberately stay neutral.

However the people you are talking to aren't nay saying about porn in that context. It's in a political context. So your point is meaningless.

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 19:13:13

I agree with your last comment entirely.
Each to their own as i said earlier.
I personally dont mind if my fella looks at porn.. as long as it isnt anything illegal, and it doesnt replace his sex life with me..

But If op finds her husbands behaviour unacceptable to the point she is considering throwing away her marriage, he has to decide what he values more.. his porn or his wife.
If porn is the answer, then clearly she is right to have been worried, as his interest is unhealthy if it takes priority over his marriage.

Fairenuff Wed 05-Sep-12 19:15:49

if its just normal, main stream porn i dont see a problem with it

Next time you watch normal mainstream porn see if you can tell whether the women in it have been trafficked. Or whether they are handing the money over to their pimps. Or whether their abusive husband is 'minding' the children until she finishes work and brings home the pay.

Look really carefully and see if you can spot which women are those and which are not.

Houseofplain Wed 05-Sep-12 19:16:02

Bingo.

She can't force him to not watch porn. He's a human with choices. However now he knows it upsets her so much. They need to look at why and where each side is coming from.

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 19:43:34

I wasnt singing the praises of fsog.. iv read it, it isnt to my taste.. i merely said thousands of women DO like it which is why so much hype surrounds the book. Some women love it to the point they become obsessed, and some of these women think thats ok for them to do, yet complain about their husbands watching porn... In which case, shouldnt the husbands also have a problem with them fantasisng over this book?
I agree that some porn is disturbing, and you are right, you cant tell which ones are being forced to do it.. but if the majority of these women are being abused, shouldnt all porn be made illegal??

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 19:47:20

I think the saying "men are from mars, women are from venus" is spot on.
Some men are very insensitive to the feelings of their partner, and in many cases cant understand why actions such as watching porn would upset their partners.. at the same time, many women cant see why their partner would see it as harmless.

Fairenuff Wed 05-Sep-12 19:54:01

if the majority of these women are being abused, shouldnt all porn be made illegal??

And if it's just a minority of women being abused, what then?

If it's only, say 10% (which would still be hundreds of women), we can all enjoy viewing porn with a clear conscience? I don't think I could.

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 19:58:39

What are your views on prostitution?

Houseofplain Wed 05-Sep-12 20:16:39

Ohhhhh I see where this is going. hmm happy hooker myths.

You are confusing political arguments with insecurities again joona.

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 20:36:03

houseofplain ... Im not confusing political arguments with insecurites. I did agree with u earlier that nobody could tell op she is wrong for feeling the way she does, as different people have their own limits.
Other people have turned this thread into a political argument, by going into depth about the dark side of the porn industry.. when ops initial question had nothing to do with any of that.. she wanted advice on wether she could trust her husband, as she feared the fact he has been watching porn means he thinks there is something missing from their marriage.....

AnyFucker Wed 05-Sep-12 20:36:32

joona, it is clear you were waaaaay out of your depth as soon as you said your "men are from mars..." comments

statements like that have been excusing male shitty behaviour for generations and in this day and age it really shouldn't be in anybody's vocabulary

however, I do think you were trying to help the OP feel better about her husband's deceit around his porn use

it's just that it won't actually make her feel better if she has political and sociological objections to the porn industry, and isn't simply jealous of the slim and big-titted ladies who get paid to get spunked on by yukky men on camera (which is kinda what you are saying she, or anyone who doesn't like porn, is feeling)

I am completely secure in my body and my relationship. I have no fear he will find a willing RL hole to fuck if he doesn't scratch his itch with porn (because he is a man, and he has neeeeeds hmm ...)

"At least it's only porn, he isn't doing it in real life"...that's what you said, joona. It isn't either/or...or at least I hope it isn't for you.

GoingBlankAgain Wed 05-Sep-12 20:37:04

I really wish we could have an 'anti-porn' and a 'pro-porn' section on Relationships. Then we wouldn't have to go through the same old thing every single time.

FarloWearsAGoldRibbon Wed 05-Sep-12 20:42:47

The political side does have a relevance to how you feel about your husband and whether you can trust him, though. If I thought my DH had that kind of disdain for women that he might enjoy looking at girls who may be being abused in some way, then I would not be able to trust him the same. If he did not view women as equals then I would not trust him to treat me like an equal.

Houseofplain Wed 05-Sep-12 20:44:43

it is clear you were waaaaay out of your depth as soon as you said your "men are from mars..." comments

This.

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 20:47:05

anyfucker
If u read ops question, she herself states that she is worried its something she's done/not done: "is there something missing from my marriage or is it really common practice amongst men?"
"Am i married to a cheat & a deceiver?"

So in no way have i implied that i think its anything to do with jelousy or insecurity.. i have merely read exactly what she wrote.

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 20:57:36

Op hasnt asked "is my husband a sadist who gets turned on at the thought of abusing women".. she asked if it ment he is likely to decieve her, & whether its considered normal for a man to look at porn...
And in answer to ops question.. yes, veiwing porn IS common practice amongst men, regardless of whether w agree with it on a moral groud or not.. lots of them do it, thats a fact... and no, it doesnt mean he is not happy with your sex life... Unless of course, he is choosing to view porn rather than have sex with u.

AnyFucker Wed 05-Sep-12 22:57:12

joona, in case you didn't notice, the OP has not been back on her thread and hasn't been for some time

the thread has moved on (as they always do when the OP disappears) and people have taken the opportunity to counter your "men will be men...." excuses and rationalisations

I hope OP is still reading, because if she comes back we can get back on track and she can tell us what kind of support she needs

and joona, your kind of support may well be what she wants, and that is fair enough (but don't expect everyone to agree with you)

joona Wed 05-Sep-12 23:30:05

I am aware that the thread has moved on. My comment was in response to a previous comment posted by you, which said that i imply that anyone who is against their partner watching porn is jelous or insecure.
Nowhere throughout this thread have i said that.
The op herself has led me to believe thats how she feels, due to the wording of her question. Thats not to say that everyone who is against porn feels the same.

likeatonneofbricks Wed 05-Sep-12 23:56:19

joona I understand what you are on about fwiw. You reply directly to the OP's emotions and HER ideas on it, don't know why people are so agressive. I'm against porn, but joona is not pro-it either, not is she happy that 'men will be men' - there is a logic in her method, and i can see that.

AnyFucker Thu 06-Sep-12 00:02:38

there has been no aggression on this thread

AllThingsOrange Thu 06-Sep-12 00:07:08

I work in a very male environment. I know that many of the guys watch porn, I hear them chatting and joking about it. Most of them do it when their partners are out of the house. Many of their partners are not aware as far as they know.

Why? Why don't they want their partners to know if it's a natural thing to do, or considered 'normal'?

I think getting over their DPs watching porn is something virtually all women have to do.

Yes, let's all just lie back and think of England hmm If you don't like something your partner is doing then you discuss it. You don't have to accept it or 'get over' it.

I think after working in an all male environment myself you are absolutely right orange.. They are different at work from when you see them out with their partners .. it used to make me chuckle ..

Saw a lot of dvd's and mags changing hands and even got to reading the daily titty paper myself but only for the problem page y'understand wink

I think if you can possibly understand that its not a threat to you, or a signal of some underlying fuckwittery he's getting up to, if the porn is vanilla porn (1 on 1 normal adults ect) resist making any remarks as to why, if he watches that amount of porn he hasn't put any of the moves into practise hmm .. maybe even try to accept it or sit down at some point, choose a normal one and have a look to see what it is thats so interesting, because imo from watching a fair bit myself all i got to see was close up bottom shots of bumgrapes shock totally offputting! .. maybe it won't be so frightening concerning whatever delete as appropriate.

Men are visual creatures, where we rely on feelings and emotions, they go by what they see a lot of the time. Who knows, it may open up a new chapter in your love life. As for him being ashamed and embarrassed, ashamed of keeping it secret maybe he should be, because IMO someone who can keep a secret from their partner is capable of lying or keeping other secrets and maybe this is what worries you.. he may feel 'dirty' or something along those lines for watching it or even uncomfortable about sex other than normal stuff, and therefore porn satisfies that curiosity though why on earth most people choose to hide it is beyond me, apart from the above reason. So is he a bit of a prude on his 'outside front' ?

WhitegoldWielder Thu 06-Sep-12 09:13:34

'Men are visual creatures - we really on feelings and emotions'
Another myth.... My bingo card is full.

All those visually impaired men out there must have shit sex lives then.

Who decides what is visually stimulating?

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 12:09:29

Men ARE more visually stimulated than we are... They get more turned on by the sight of a naked woman than we do by the sight of a naked man, for us it takes a bit more than that, we need the mental stimulation too.
Of course that doesnt ring true for ALL men, but the majority.
Porn aside... Why do you think the majority of men like to watch films that involve car chases, explosions etc...
Where as women prefer drama or something with a good story behind it.

anonacfr Thu 06-Sep-12 12:13:00

Wow. Talk about generalisations.

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 12:20:43

I did say that it doesnt apply to all men, there are exceptions, probably thousands of them. And i wouldnt say its a generalisation really, i bet if you were to conduct a poll the results would mirror what i said. Ask a man what his fave movie is, and more often than not, it will be an action film of some sort.

babyboomersrock Thu 06-Sep-12 12:41:56

Poor simple men, eh? Slaves to their gender, every one.

Happily, the men I know don't conform to stereotypes like the ones above. They're individuals - as are the women I know.

Honestly, you'd think it was 1950 in here sometimes, with all the little women smiling indulgently at their men, while the men in question give way to their uncontrollable urges.

bogeyface Thu 06-Sep-12 12:44:20

Anon It is a generally accepted truth though that women tend to be more turned on by thoughts and words, hence why so many women read 50SOG/erotic fiction and men just dont get it. Whereas the majority of "traditional" porn users are men.

There arent many women who would get all turned on by the sight of a naked penis, but there are a hell of alot of men who would get a stiffy from a womans naked genitals. Its just the way it is! I dont see why conceding the differences is a generalisation or offensive. One isnt better than the other, just different.

Spuddybean Thu 06-Sep-12 12:57:42

Just off on a tangent about whether men are more visually stimulated than women: Is it a natural difference or a difference cultivated from birth? Has society created a self fulfilling prophecy?

If girls were brought up with everything visual aimed at them (advertising etc) and boys were told they were more cerebral would it be different. Do women actually prefer literature or is that the only option open to them.

When I was studying the fetishisation of the image these were questions which arose. My opinion after research was that it really was nurture dictating this (and wholeheartedly encouraged by society) rather than nature.

Personally (and yes this is just anecdote) i DO get aroused by a naked penis, my DP does NOT get turned on by a naked fanjo. DP prefers textures etc and i am pure visual. However, i struggle with the ethics of pornography and i do not see my orgasm as trumping everything else. We get round it by taking our own pics etc.

OliveandJim Thu 06-Sep-12 13:21:20

I can't believe that someone suggested that because OP's DH has a secret he's bound to be able to deceive and cheat.... Unbelievable!
This must be Victorian times after all.
Having a secret garden is an entitlement every adult should be allowed to have. It is not because you are married that you are suddenly not allowed to have a secret garden or privacy, however you want to put it. If OP's DH is a good husband, which she implies, then let the poor buggar live a little. Political opinions on pornography or what stimulates men and women is deviating from the fact that a lot of women on this thread think it is absolutely acceptable to dictate to your husband what he is allowed to do (or not).
That is femisnism pushed along the wrong side of the fence. if we (women) do not want to be dictated what we do and how we live what right do we have to do it to the male gender?
This is not what my mother fought for 50 years ago!

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 13:43:50

babyboomersrock In no way have i said that i am defending men & their actions. I am merely pointing out a fact. I have not said that being male justifies or can be used as an excuse for behaviour that may upset their partner, nor that the partner should like it or lump it.

I have said however, that the reason more men are drawn to porn than women, is because they are more visualy stimulated than we are in the majority.

Why do you think magazines like 'FHM', 'NUTS' etc sell so well? They're full to the brim with scantily clad women. We cant even open a newspaper these days without a pair of naked breasts staring back at us.

And have you ever noticed that there is alot more female nudity in films than male? If it was for a reason, fair enough, but even 90% of the comedys make sure they find a way to throw in a boob shot or 2 .... Because for men, sex sells.

It might not be right on a moral ground, but wether we approve, accept or not...
Thats the way it is.

Spuddybean Thu 06-Sep-12 13:57:10

But is it Joona? Really. Or is it because the men are conditioned by visual stimulus from birth and women are conditioned not to? The reason all of the things are there as you say are because they can be. They are sanctioned by a male dominated media, directed at men, because traditionally men are the ones who have more money can dictate these things. It is more about power than visual/sexual stimuli.

I do not agree it is a fact. It may BECOME fact but i do not believe it is the natural order of things. Obviously just an opinion tho and there is plenty of evidence to support both sides.

Not explaining myself well - sorry - been up all night and my brain is blancmange.

bobbledunk Thu 06-Sep-12 14:24:56

To people who wondered what I meant in my post; thought it was very clear tbh, gay porn, I'd assume he is gay and the marriage a sham, child porn, a filthy pervert. Shouldn't have put them in the same sentence. Think it was obvious in my comment exactly what it meant but if you're looking to project offense in everything....

Charbon Thu 06-Sep-12 14:41:05

Dear God, some of these posts about men being 'visual creatures' are just so....brainless and idiotic.

There are abosultely no 'facts' to support the myth that men-as-a-group are biologically programmed to respond more to visual stimulation, any more than there are 'facts' that women-as-a-group are born responding to written words and stories.

The porn industry, as well as being hugely exploitative of the individuals engaged in it, is also massively exploitative of people's stupidity and erroneous beliefs that men like sex more than women and cannot therefore be expected to control their urges to watch real people having sex.

There's a reason that more men watch porn than women and that most porn is produced for the male consumer, but it's got nothing at all to do with biology and everything to do with patriarchical attitudes to sex and especially female sexuality. Boys and men are raised to believe that sex is more important to them than it is to women and girls and women are raised to accept that and not question it. This is why there is also an expectation that most boys and men will use porn and that the women in their lives will indulge it, even if it offends their political beliefs, is damaging their sex lives or involves secretive behaviour as in the OP's case.

Anyone with half a brain can work out that this is just societal conditioning and that the myths that surround these 'differences' between male and female sexuality have no basis in fact. These myths though are extremely insulting to intelligent, imaginative men who politically object to porn and furthermore, have developed senses beyond their ability to see and hear and whose sexual repertoire and eroticism is more finely honed than the average porn hound.

I'm not in the least surprised the OP has retreated. I think she was entitled to expect some intelligent, thoughtful responses and not a braying crowd who've been brainwashed into thinking that anyone who objects to porn is sexually repressed or a victorian prude. I hope she's still lurking though and realises that not everyone has sleep-walked into believing the myths that have populated this thread - and has worked out why several posters felt the need to belittle her feelings and mock them.

That would be fear.

FurCoatSkimpyKnickers Thu 06-Sep-12 14:42:50

Great post Charbon

Anyone with half a brain can work out that this is just societal conditioning

Totally agree

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 14:49:55

So what you're saying is that most of the men who use porn, only use it because they've been raised to believe that sex is more important to them than it is to women, so they are doing what is expected of them???

..... Not because they want to get themselves off while looking at naked women in action then??

Spuddybean Thu 06-Sep-12 14:53:33

Well it's both really isn't it. They are considered more 'visual' because they have been surrounded by visual stimuli therefore when there sexuality develops the visual aspect is so easily accessible therefore becomes intertwined into their make up. Therefore they do genuinely become more visually stimulated (they aren't pretending!) but it has been created and encouraged rather than naturally more prevalent in their original psyche than in women.

Charbon Thu 06-Sep-12 15:08:31

Look, it's the same as the socialisation that women are subjected to about housework, home-making and child-rearing. None of us were born with an innate ability to clean ovens, wash and iron clothes and look after young children. Just as boys and men are not born with an innate ability to fix cars and mow lawns. But if society expects you to do these things and to be good at them just because you're a man or a woman, you either live up to that expectation or you question it and find out what actually interests you in life, developing your skills accordingly.

It's actually a very repressive society for men and women who confound sexual stereotypes. A terrible pressure for young boys to watch porn and learn about sex from those grossly distorted and frequently abusive images - and ridiculous peer pressure if they say 'no' to it. Just as there is pressure on young girls and women to 'join with the programme' and disassociate themselves from the real women who are often getting injured by the porn they and their male partners profess to enjoy.

This is why the 'insecurity' myth is so pernicious. It actually takes a very secure and strong character to call bullshit on all this and question the way that society has been shaped.

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 15:09:13

^ ^ I agree with that spuddybean. Maybe men ARE more responsive to visual stimuli because they've been brought up around it ... But regardless of the reasons surrounding it, they ARE more drawn to visual images than we are in the majority.

PeppermintPasty Thu 06-Sep-12 15:44:40

Hear hear Charbon. It's very useful too, for the stereotypical roles to be so clearly defined and roundly accepted and adhered to. Useful to those people/organisations/political parties/belief systems etc etc, who want to prop up the system as it is and don't want it challenged. Woe betide that teenage boy or girl who doesn't conform to the usual shite shovelled at them continuously, they are in for a rough ride sad

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 15:53:33

And charbon , while i agree with some of the points you make, i dont agree with them all.

For one, i have not stated that i think men are "biologically programmed" to be more responsive to visual stimuli.. i said it is a widely believed fact that they ARE more visually stimulated than we are. I made no mention of them being bioloically programmed to be that way. All you did was give reason for it, which i agree with 100% .. i DO think they are more visually responsive because they are brought up in a society that surrounds them with this expectation.

However, i dont agree that they watch porn simply because society expects them to... As you said, there is probably a tremendous amount of peer pressure as a teenager to be 'one of the lads' and give it a go, i do agree with that point. But in adulthood, i dont think a man watches porn because of peer pressure, or because he is expected to... I think that if they continue to watch it, on a regular basis, alone & in the comfort of their own homes, its because they like it, and they want to... Because the visuals turn them on.

You said that women are raised with the expectation to cook and clean, which is also true. But more and more women are going against that expectation and going out, having successful careers while the other half takes on the 'womans role'.
However, there are some that do enjoy being domestic, and quite happily do so.

The point im making is that people in this day and age dont do things simply because society expects them to. They do it because they want to. Because they enjoy it, for whatever reason.. or because they need to.

Maybe i need to word things a bit better to get my point across correctly.

In future though i would appreciate if you would kindly refrain from labelling my opinions (and the opinions of some others) as "brainless & idiotic" simply because they may differ from your own.

Houseofplain Thu 06-Sep-12 16:10:59

If you will start discussing FSOG and spouting nonsense. Such as women are from Venus, men are from mars.

Whilst talking in txt speak. It does look like you are missing the point somewhat.

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 16:18:41

houseofplain with all due respect, this thread enables us to share our opinions and use comparisons and examples. Which is what i have done. If you disagree with the things i have said, thats fine. Nobody says you have to agree. These are MY opinions, and you have yours. Neither are right or wrong. Just different.

OliveandJim Thu 06-Sep-12 16:20:03

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 16:25:14

And as for my 'men are from mars' comment earlier.. i feel that has been backed up by others who say men have been raised in a society which expects them to see sex differently to us.

However, In no part of this thread have a suggested that that i think it is an acceptable excuse to use in order to justify behaviour that upsets a partner.

Charbon Thu 06-Sep-12 16:28:29

i said it is a widely believed fact that they ARE more visually stimulated than we are.

It's not a 'fact' though. There is no evidence to support it, therefore it is not a 'fact'. Myths on the other hand are widely believed, especially if it suits the group in power for people to believe them. It's especially helpful if those with less power believe it too, because that serves to maintain the status quo and the power balance.

Hence you get women turning a blind eye to the abuse of other women in the porn industry and mocking other women whose relationships and sense of wellbeing are being damaged by its existence. These are women who prop up the most common myths about porn; that men are 'visual creatures' (as opposed to being fully sentient human beings and possessed of an imagination) and are therefore utterly incapable of masturbating without it, that any woman who objects to it is sexually repressed and any man who similarly objects is either a weirdo or a liar.

Bearing in mind that the people making the most money from porn are the men who produce it, who benefits most from these myths do you think? Men-as-a-group or women-as-a-group?

anonacfr Thu 06-Sep-12 16:31:06

The point im making is that people in this day and age dont do things simply because society expects them to. They do it because they want to. Because they enjoy it, for whatever reason.. or because they need to.

I'm sorry but no. You only have to look at statistics of housework sharing to find that in households where there are children and the parents work equal hours the bulk of domestic work is done by the women.

Is it because they chose to work full time and get home from work and do nice relaxing domestic chores while their husband settles down with TV and a beer?
It is because when children are born a lot of couple revert to traditional gender roles as seen through their parents/grandparents.
Read 'Wifework'- it's rather enlightening.

Read through dozens of posts on this site and you will find many instances of women complaining that their husband doesn't help around the house or doesn't do nappies, or doesn't do food etc. Funnily enough it doesn't seem to happy the other way round.

As for women not being visual. Mm. Why do you think there are so many shirtless men on Merlin?
grin

I understand that you are hurt by his secret keeping but i think you need to look at the bigger picture - this is not a devastating change your life thing here. I really expected you to say a huge 8 year secret was a love child or affair etc. I think you need to stop focussing on the looking at porn aspect and concentrate more on the trust and why he felt this was such a shameful thing he couldn't tell you, when in the grand scheme of things - looking at 'normal' porn on occasion is not anything to be ashamed of?
What are your personal views on porn? Why would he be afraid he does something most men do?

Houseofplain Thu 06-Sep-12 16:37:58

The problem is. If you start coming out with myths. If you start lumping a whole group of people together. If you start comparing fictional porn to real life porn.

You will get people questioning you. Especially when you are so keen on using the word fact.

Fairenuff Thu 06-Sep-12 16:53:41

Political opinions on pornography or what stimulates men and women is deviating from the fact that a lot of women on this thread think it is absolutely acceptable to dictate to your husband what he is allowed to do (or not)

I think you may have missed the point here. I know that my dh feels the same way I do about porn. We have discussed it. I would not want to be with a man who thought watching women being abused was 'entertainment'. He knows this and we are on the same page regarding porn and LDCs etc.

Therefore, if I discovered that he had, in fact, been secretly watching porn I would question his honesty. I would not for one moment expect him to just do what I want. I would not dictate to him what he is allowed to do. But I would not want to be with a man who lied about his ethics and, in fact, supported the porn industry.

So, for some people, it would mean a big change in their relationship and possibly a deal breaker.

The point im making is that people in this day and age dont do things simply because society expects them to

On the contrary, people absolutely do behave as society expects them to. It's the 'nuture' part of the nature-versus-nurture debate. All of our behaviours and beliefs are shaped and influenced by our experiences and expectations of society.

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 16:53:45

Yes anonacfr i do agree with that. The majority of the traditional female roles are still carried out by the female. But there are exceptions.

The point i was trying to get across, was that i dont think men watch porn simply because society pressures them to do so.

That may be why they first dabble with it as a teenager, then again it could just be out of curiosity. Everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do, and these reasons are not always considered acceptable by others.

But do you really think a grown man with his own mind, responsible for his own actions, would settle down with a porn dvd while his partner was out of the way if he didnt like watching it?

anonacfr Thu 06-Sep-12 17:01:05

So one minute you're saying in this day and age people (regardless of gender) do things because they want to but there are still traditional roles and they are still fulfilled by the appropriate gender?

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 17:09:12

In some cases yes, but not all. As i said, there are exceptions. This is not the 1800's. These days you do get a percentage of stay at home dad's, house husbands ... The man is not ALWAYS the bread winner within the family unit. There is still the 'traditional' male/female cliche on most roles, but although most people probably do adhere to tradition, not everyone does.

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 17:13:47

And just because its considered 'normal behaviour' for a man to watch porn, i dont believe that is why they do it.. i believe it is an excuse they use to deem it acceptable.
I believe they watch it because they want to watch it.

anonacfr Thu 06-Sep-12 17:45:22

How do you explain the fact that there is a booming porn market aimed at women by the way?

SingSingSing Thu 06-Sep-12 17:55:02

You say you have a good sex life, so why don't you drink some wine, watch some porn together and see if you like it. Occasionally...

I'm saying it in a nice way. Don't let it ruin you, let it bring you closer. Maybe he feels he couldn't be open with you, so show him you are open to trying new things. Just a thought.

AnyFucker Thu 06-Sep-12 18:03:14

porn to bring couples closer hmm

< heard it all now >

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 18:35:11

Another break away from tradition .. im well aware that there are women who watch porn & like it, as well as men. But there are a number of people above who have also said that the vast majority of porn is aimed at men.

Back in the day, women were led to believe that sex was for re-production purposes, or something they were supposed to do to fulfil their husbands marital rights. Women these days are becoming more sexually liberated, it is accepted these days that women have sex for pleasure aswell. Another cliched divide among the sexes is that if a man sleeps around, he's considered 'a legend' by his friends, but if a woman does it, they are labelled a 'slag'... And before i get slated for that, it is not a view i agree with, but a view that is widely accepted by people with closed minds.

I agree that men are moulded into 'visual creatures' by society, being brought up around images of scantly clad women all over the place... And yes, i am aware that there is an increasing number of sexual images of men which are aimed at women... But still, the majority of it is aimed at men.... But society doesnt state that men should watch porn & enjoy it. They do this because they like it... That being said, not all men watch porn, and those who dont should not be labelled as a 'weirdo' or 'liar'.

People like what they like, for whatever reason.. just because a man has been raised in a society that exploits images of women, doesnt mean they have to like it. They are more visual, but theres a difference between ogling glamour models and watching/looking at porn. If they didnt like doing it, they wouldnt.

I am neither pro porn or anti porn.
I wouldnt be thrilled if i discovered my partner was viewing porn, but i wouldnt be devestated by it to the point where i would consider ending my relationship, and i wouldnt feel insecure about my relationship, or worry that he would cheat.

But thats how i feel personally. The op obviously feels differently, and that isnt wrong. How we feel about it, and our level of tolerence regarding porn varies depending on our own personal limits.

I know couples who use porn together as part of foreplay. I know other people who are highly offended by the idea of their other halves using porn. Nobodys view is right, and nobodys is wrong. They differ from person to person.

We still dont know if the ops husband actively lied about using porn, or wether he just failed to mention it to her. If he did lie, then they need to look into why. If i was in the ops situation, that would be my main concern.

No woman has a right to dictate what her husband is allowed to do, and vice versa. There are obvious boundries, such as staying faithful, and what is deemed 'cheating' again varies from person to person. But if the ops husbands behaviour upsets her that much, he needs to decide which he values more.. his porn or his wife.

Houseofplain Thu 06-Sep-12 18:44:41

Women these days are becoming more sexually liberated

Really? Is that what you call it? You only have to see this thread, to see that's not so.

If you aren't pro porn, or are confused, or upset. As the op was. You are frigid, prude, insecure, freaky, strange, boring. In need of an education, to snap out of it, wind your neck in, grow the fuck up. All from fellow women.....

There is no tolerance nowadays. Men are expected to watch porn. Women are expected to be the cool wife. Who shags along to porn, goes to lap dancing clubs. That's why there is an increased market. It's not cool to not like porn anymore. Like its not cool to have pubic hair. It's all subliminal messages.

I wouldn't say we've been liberated, at all.

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 18:55:24

Again you are talking as though i am including every woman on the planet. Im not. There are always exceptions.

But i do believe that we have become more liberated sexually, in the sense that we now have the freedom to talk about sex, have sex for fun or pleasure, have sex before marriage etc without it being frowned upon.

Dont get me wrong, there are some old fashioned types who will still frown upon it and deem it 'un-ladylike' behaviour. But its alot more widely accepted than it used to be.

Houseofplain Thu 06-Sep-12 19:04:00

You make no sense and have missed the point. I'm finding your posts contradictory.

You said. Women these days are becoming more sexually liberated

This thread is a PRIME example of it having gone the opposite way.

I'm not talking about the op. I'm talking about everyone else. We are actually being repressed by other women. You are abused nowadays for not being in the majority of a porn user, or being cool with it.

You've also highlighted how repressed we still are, by highlighting women are still seen as "slags" if they sleep around. I agree with that. Not so liberated are we?

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 19:12:36

Well i disagree.
Yes there are women on here who are slating the op for the way she feels. But there are also some who sympathise and agree with her. Which goes to show that not all women are conforming to the view that we should just accept a mans behaviour. Yourself included.

Me? As i said, im neither pro or anti porn.
I am open minded enough to accept that different people have different views & opinions on things, which is their right.

Houseofplain Thu 06-Sep-12 19:18:03

bangs head

Have you read the thread? I've been saying what you have in the last paragraph all thread. I never come out as pro or anti porn on purpose.

I will however defend ops rights to be upset without facing a load of abuse from "liberated" women. Trying to invalidate her feelings.

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 19:25:44

Yes, i know you have. I havent called you pro or anti porn. And i myself have also said that the op should not be ridiculed for feeling the way she does. There are many women who would feel the same, and also many who would wonder why it upset her so much. They all have a right to express their own opinions, as that is what the op has asked for.

Houseofplain Thu 06-Sep-12 19:28:29

Yes they do have that right. Without making her feel so shit. It's no wonder she never came back really is it? sad

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 19:38:37

Yeah i do agree that some of these comments are a bit harsh... Wouldnt surprise me if some of them were written by people who have never even been in the situation themselves... I wonder if some of these people did find themselves in this situation, whether they're opinions would change?

joona Thu 06-Sep-12 20:00:39

The trouble is, we live in a world where unfortunately, so many people are all too quick to judge.

SingSingSing Fri 07-Sep-12 02:26:25

At AnyFucker - surely doing something together rather than apart brings you closer together. Not surreptiously!

screamingjet Fri 07-Sep-12 03:32:49

I had a similar experience this last week.. I am trying to understand the differences with men and women.. I think and feel and see, very differently then most men I have known . My imagination is far superior to those men in the past.. They then are limited to having to be spoon fed pictures . Now I totally get how this is a trust issue but only cos you don't understand and how do you trust something you don't understand.. As I said ..I speak from experience ... I think if you work through this you will find that unless your husband is treating you like an object and perving on all and sundry, rather than just the exceptional beautiful specimen of the female form.. then I think you 'll find it's your issue.. Men watch porn .. how much porn is the issue.. I don't want my man to watch porn but he does.. and he will lie about it if I corner him on it... I researched this exact issue cos I believe in EFFORT within a marriage.. I found out that it's a bit like females and shopping... you can look and look all day , but come home empty handed and not feel anything like sad or resentful or unfulfilled , we are happy with what we have but we still like to look !!!
I think if my husband told me I would still corner him . He just wants to do it fast without you.... not to offend you but to relieve stress ? boredom? anxiety? Or He may even be thinking about you ? but without the imagination he needs help to do what he needs to do, No guilt, no judgement,
Think about if you were "told" you can't go shop again!
I want to understand , I hope you do? Condemnation will serve to leave wrinkles and we don't need those !!
Maybe pictures of you with some sexy knickers? pop them on the computer?
I have always told my daughter ...effort ... Life is "not a happy ever after".... It's effort. Understanding takes loads and loads of that!
ps.. I hope I don't offend...I know I am A BIG MOUTH.

joona Fri 07-Sep-12 08:01:28

effort... understanding takes loads and loads of that

Yes it does. But if she DOES end up 'understanding', does that mean she will feel any better about her husband doing it?

There is a difference in making an effort and feeling like you should accept something out of duty.

Whether the op understands her husbands habit or not, if it is something that upsets her a great deal, then isnt her husband obliged to make the effort to stop? Or is she just expected to make the effort to accept it, even though she finds it upsetting? Marriage is supposed to be equal, therefore effort should be made on both sides. And no woman should ever be made to feel like they should accept something they are unhappy with.

Fairenuff Fri 07-Sep-12 08:25:42

without the imagination he needs help to do what he needs to do

This isn't true.

If it were true that would mean that, until moving pictures were invented men would have been unable to masturbate.

Romans, Greeks, Tudors, etc. Thousands and thousands of men throughout history, unable to masturbate unless there was an image of naked female genitals in front of them.

Even, today there are people living in remote areas all over world without access to TV or internet. I'm sure they are doing it too. Just by using their imagination.

Also, if he 'needs' to do it, as you put it, then he's ready and doesn't need porn to help him get there. I don't think you can classify porn as a 'need' unless perhaps he is addicted and then it wiould definately have a negative impact on his rl relationships.

I think and feel and see, very differently then most men I have known

This is a typical example of the conditioning that we were talking about upthread and you have passed this on to your daughter. You would not be happy, I am sure, if she worked in porn and men your husband's age were masturbating over her (literally as well as figuratively). But you do think it's ok for your dh to do that to other people's daughters. You have been conditioned to believe that male sexuality is somehow more important than the safety and wellbeing of women.

Alurkatsoftplay Fri 07-Sep-12 08:32:33

I am surprised some people on this thread think:

Wanking and watching porn are interchangeable terms. They are not.

That reading erotic fiction is the same as watching porn. It is not.

That all men watch porn. They don't.

LittleFrieda Fri 07-Sep-12 12:16:55

Alice - I'm with you. It's insulting and a horrible, sly thing to do. I would also feel betrayed. (sorry I haven't read the whole thread just the first page, and I'm shocked by some women's easy acceptance of porn. Vile.)

Teansympathy Fri 07-Sep-12 19:52:44

Honey it is normal for men all ages and stages in there life to look at porn, try to clam down and think, he did not have an affair , has he not been a good and loyal husband to you , did you not say your sex life was good?, really all he was doing was looking it is allowed and to have fantasies , and it may just have helped him to keep faithful to you have you ever thought about it like that?. I feel sorry for you both but talk to him and talk again communication is everything.

AnyFucker Fri 07-Sep-12 20:04:20

I am going to encourage my husband to use porn, it will help him to stay faithful to me

Offred Fri 07-Sep-12 20:07:33

grin

FarloWearsAGoldRibbon Fri 07-Sep-12 20:11:29

Absolutely AnyFucker. Can't imagine how my DH has stayed faithful all these years without it. Almost like he's capable of rational thought, morals and impulse control! Thank goodness we have posts like the one above yours to educate us, don't you agree? hmm

Alurkatsoftplay Fri 07-Sep-12 20:40:32

If a man doesn't watch a man come over a woman's face at least once a week he will spontaneously combust; fact.

As fairenuff said, we should feel sorry for all men in the past who could not access porn. They really did lead terrible deprived lives.

MarysBeard Fri 07-Sep-12 20:48:56

I think the web has normalised porn. When I was growing up I thought men who bought porn mags were part of the dirty mac brigade, sad, to be avoided at all costs, pitied even.

Now apparently it is 'normal' for men to view porn on a regular basis, but only since about 1996 IMO. Lads mags have a lot to answer for too.

Houseofplain Fri 07-Sep-12 20:49:23

It's a fact dontcha know.

That our life expectancy has increased with time. Due to the invention of the wank mag, porn channels and now the net.

Back in the day. Men really did die young all because of no adequate supply of porn.

Advances in medical technology, the discovery of antibiotics. Oh no it's because men are visual and now they've got endless porn innit.

Offred Fri 07-Sep-12 20:53:21

Unfortunately I grew up with Internet and lads mag porn culture being "normal" and it very badly affected my views on what constituted a normal relationship. I learned men are all cheaters, to keep one you must not refuse any kind of sexual degradation required and without a man you are worthless, also "nice" men are "boring".

AnyFucker Fri 07-Sep-12 21:01:29

that is very sad, offred

you can reject those views though, we all can

they are not the sum of our parts

there is such a thing as free will and respect for yourself

if I had internalised all the messages I got from my upbringing, I would be one sad and sorry individual right now

when you demand respect from yourself, you command respect from others

innit

grin

Offred Fri 07-Sep-12 21:13:46

It is. It is why I am comfortable with hating porn now! I always did but felt I was wrong and abnormal as a teen to feel that way. Did my time as "cool girlfriend"... Not ever again!

AnyFucker Fri 07-Sep-12 21:19:58

glad to hear it smile

sonofmine007 Fri 07-Sep-12 21:26:10

Porn. What kind of porn? Judging by your reaction I would assume it was the worst kind involving children and/or animals I'm just going to be frank here. Or was he watching adults having sex including oral, anal etc? As someone said, I really think you need to take a couple of deep breaths and get a grip. I actually feel sorry for your husband in that the guilt he's feeling has reduced him to being physically sick! You both need to sit down and talk about this openly and clearly because to be honest anything else will just be pushing it under a carpet and he's going to find other ways to satisfy his need (which by the way has nothing to do with your sex life/you not being sexually fulfilling.

Your ego is bruised because you didn't know it was happening and you're shocked because of the length of time it was going on. Two separate issues so you may need to deal with yourself first before you can come together with your husband and talk about this.

He should be able to tell you why he likes it and you need to be able to listen with out butting in, looking shocked, disgusted or any other way that will make him clam up because believe it or not there's a deeper issue here and this "discovery" may just be what you both need to get to the heart to it and make your relationship stronger.

He didn't go out and sleep with anyone or have an affair. Keep things in perspective, that's key to communicating through this.

Consider this, watching "blue movies" as they used to be called can actually spice up your sex life, I mean couples having sex etc, your man might actually prefer this and again bring a whole new dimension to your sex life but it will be what you both want and can openly discuss including the stuff that you're not keen on.

Here's to better undertanding and a stronger relationship.

Alurkatsoftplay Fri 07-Sep-12 21:30:28

Absolutely, son of mine, When will women realise that men are visual creatures - they have to watch women being fucked up the arse regularly, otherwise they will die - your relationship would really suffer then, wouldn't it?!

Houseofplain Fri 07-Sep-12 21:31:55

They won't die...they'll just go elsewhere. You've been warned. Wimmin know your place.

Offred Fri 07-Sep-12 21:33:08

Yeah here's to being wanked all over and having your arsehole ripped open...smile

Spuddybean Fri 07-Sep-12 21:58:29

I found out that it's a bit like females and shopping

For some reason this is really making me laugh. In fact the whole post was very funny. <i am sleep deprived however> The word females in particular. I love being referred to as that, it feels so scientific.

PretzelTime Fri 07-Sep-12 22:14:18

I found out that it's a bit like females and shopping
I found out that it's a bit like females and shopping
I found out that it's a bit like females and shopping

Yeah that was good one. I'm rofling here.

Offred Fri 07-Sep-12 22:34:38

I think my favourite was the one about finding ethically produced porn... Oxymoron...

Offred Fri 07-Sep-12 22:37:20

Fair trade organic outdoor reared porn, low air miles and transported by cycle grin

Fairenuff Fri 07-Sep-12 22:37:25

It was the 'pop some sexy knickers on' that got me grin

I started a reply a few times but, well, what can you say really?

leguminous Fri 07-Sep-12 23:24:48

"I think my favourite was the one about finding ethically produced porn... Oxymoron... "

Oh, for fuck's sake. Yes, clearly it is impossible for anyone, ever, to get in front of a camera and cheerfully perform consensual sex acts for other people to view, without being coerced or abused. No, it's not to be found in the vast bulk of what's out there online. Doesn't mean it doesn't fucking exist. But go ahead, split your sides, I'm such a poor deluded fool, yes?

Fairenuff Fri 07-Sep-12 23:36:49

When we talk about the widespread abuse of women in porn, why is it a 'political issue'?

If people talk about child abuse or even abuse of animals, no-one says that is a 'political issue'.

Just the abuse of women hmm

I don't get that sad

hellymelly Fri 07-Sep-12 23:39:47

Haven't read the whole thread- am off to bed- but like hully am rather appalled at how many women think porn use is fine and that the op has wildly over-reacted. Personally I could not stay in a marriage with someone who continued to wank over brutalised and exploited young women. I don't think its "healthy" and "well adjusted", I think it is vile. I have two dds, can't imagine ever feeling happy that some bloke would get off on watching them have sex, and if I wouldn't want my daughters in images or films like that then why would I think its ok for someone else's dd?
OP, I understand that this is a big shock, I will read the whole thread tomorrow and comment properly.

marykat2004 Sat 08-Sep-12 00:00:20

When I was growing up most of my friends' dads seemed to have porn mags under their beds. If the kids knew about it I would think the wives must have known. We just thought it was funny. But the "porn" was tamer then. There was also porn channel on the cable TV box. Kids couldn't access it, but we knew it existed and what it was. I'm not saying porn is right, I'm just saying porn was there long before the internet. It's something a lot of men look at.

The biggest non-issue Relationships has ever encountered. <gavel>

Offred Sat 08-Sep-12 06:57:03

Leguminous - when sex acts are performed for money it rather erodes the concepts of consent and free choice yes...

Alurkatsoftplay Sat 08-Sep-12 08:31:55

I don't think it's a non issue, clairefromwork. The op was clearly very shocked as I would be.

You can see the effects of porn all over this board, from guys who can't be arsed to have sex with their wives but are watching porn all night, to the guys who progress from porn to chat lines and affairs, to the guys who are expecting their partners to be hairless and constantly up for it.

Try telling these women it's a non issue. It's a New issue and it does need a response.

When my daughter comes to me and says, "my dp expects me to do this and that because hes watched porn all his life and that's what he expects women do" what am I going to say to her?
"oh suck it up darling, men have needs..."

thebeesnees79 Mon 10-Sep-12 14:05:20

well said alurka! I guess we are supposed to just put up with it because hey men are visual creatures!
All I can say is that stuff on porn is not what goes on in rl as long as a partner respects that.

waterlego Mon 10-Sep-12 14:36:58

Eeek. It's unfortunate that someone cited Jenna Jameson as being an 'empowered' porn star. Extract from an online article about her:

'Since her dad was always working, her and her older brother were unsupervised most of the time - allowing them to become promiscuous with drugs and sex. While a young teen, she lost her virginity to a boy while passed out drunk at a party. She was later gang-raped by several boys from another high school when her family had moved to Montana. That experience was one in which Jameson was convinced she was not meant to survive.'

Not exactly conventional teenage years. Can you see how Jameson might have a not-entirely-healthy self-esteem and attitude to sex?

I actually didn't realise until a few years ago how sordid the porn industry is. I learnt a lot from MN and other articles on the subject. I had watched it from time to time but had never felt quite right about it and wasn't sure why, until I read up on it. I would never watch it now. I have also educated my OH on the subject and I don't believe he watches it any more. Our having a daughter has probably helped changed his view too. If he did still watch it, I'd be disappointed because he knows my ethical objections. I wouldn't leave him over it though.

AnyFucker Mon 10-Sep-12 14:45:16

WL, your experience and attitude to porn echoes my own.

h3rbm Sat 19-Jan-13 22:33:08

The reason men turn to porn is that they are not getting enough sex. I propose the following solutions:

1. Abolish the internet.
2. Abolish computers.
3. Abolish television.
4. Lifetime imprisonment for supplying girly mags.
5. Castrate all men after producing offspring or before age 16, whichever is the sooner.
In the meantime just have sex with the hubby.

minnieroll Sat 19-Jan-13 23:40:29

NEWS JUST IN - WOMEN WATCH PORN TOO! shock This thread reads like Mary Whitehouse's secret journal.

OP - If it's the fact he's not sharing this element of his life with you - GET INVOLVED!!!

badinage Sat 19-Jan-13 23:45:51

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