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Separation & beyond.. Lala goes forth!!!

(636 Posts)
LalaDipsey Wed 01-Aug-12 18:49:07

Hi everyone. Well, the saga continues. H turned up for his single 'abuse assessment session' on Monday to find that the counsellor had, by mistake, booked him in for Wednesday instead of Monday! I was fuming!
I spoke to them and said it may just be one more week to them, but to me I had mentally psyched myself up for H to have this DV assessment and was then ready for a session this Monday coming either together or on my own. Nothing could be done but I was gutted as I had hoped us to be significantly further along by next week and now we won't be.
On the plus side, night 3 of sleep training tonight so hoping for a massive improvement.
Had no idea what to call this thread... Felt this was still the right place as I extricate us from this relationship but I hope by the time this reaches 1000 posts H has either moved out, or is living here whilst the divorce is being processed so I hope the title sums that up!!
Thanks for everyone still with me

izzyizin Wed 01-Aug-12 20:40:03

Do you have another thread with the backstory that you can link to this one?

If you've been a victim of abuse from your h is there any reason why you're living together?

angeltattoo Wed 01-Aug-12 21:30:41

Hi lala!

I lost your old posr after it went to the 'secret place'! very secret' i couldn't bloody find it Have been wondering how and and your little ones are, great to see you back here.

I am a bit behind, but had read every post until you hid your thread, looking forward to hearing how well you're doing.

LalaDipsey Wed 01-Aug-12 21:30:57

Hi Izzy. All my prior threads have been deleted - I didn't realise they vanished from the quiet place where I got the last one move to when I started putting a plan in place (was not as successful as hoped - ended up separating from H but not him moving out and he does still think we could work things out whereas I am done). Then I started another thread in the quiet place not knowing it would delete itself.

izzyizin Wed 01-Aug-12 21:37:36

Is part of the purpose of this counselling to get him to ship his sorry arse out without kicking off again?

LalaDipsey Wed 01-Aug-12 21:40:31

Hi angel. Well. Started counselling to see where it would get us(H hoping get us back together I think, me hoping it would give me the strength to properly end it and for him to realise what a twunt he is!). Had first session with the counsellor who was fab - called H on his behaviour. Then I went last week for a session on my own as H away with work and got told I had to do a DV assessment to see if they would see us together or not as if H was controlling and abusive they would not. So this Monday just gone H was supposed to have his assessment after which they have a case meeting and decide whether to see us together or separate but he turned up and there was no appointment (see below!)
So... Where we are is
Separated (wedding rings moved to left hand off)
Attending counselling where it is becoming evident H is an arse as validated by Relate!
H still living here - he stopped drinking for a week or so. Is now on 2 cans lager a night for now, bound to steadily increase!
H thinks we can work things out
I don't now. I am done.

LalaDipsey Wed 01-Aug-12 21:42:28

Izzy - yes, kind of. I have become so used to not putting my viewpoint across I find it very hard to be firm/confrontational. I am hoping to use counselling to help me end it in a 'safe environment' which I did tell the counsellor last week.

NoWayNoHow Wed 01-Aug-12 21:54:48

Hello lala!! Big hugs on a great day to be British!

I'm loving reading your posts now - honestly, the difference in the last 3 months is so substantial, it's like they were written by a different person!

SO frustrating that the counselling didn't materialise. How are things otherwise? What's the status quo at home at the moment?

angeltattoo Wed 01-Aug-12 21:56:54

Ah, well. You've come along in leaps and bounds, he has had more than enough opportunity to be the dad/husband he should be. Hopefully the counselling will help him see how unacceptable his behaviour has been.

My last post was after he threw something across the room when your DTD was On the floor sad

Sounds like you're doing well...hang in there, we know you can! Maybe he'll come round to the idea of moving out?

MyLittleMiracles Wed 01-Aug-12 22:05:05

lala i dont know your story to be honest, but i am glad you seem so sure that you are doing the right thing andif he is abusive IN ANY WAY you are doing the right thing and we will all be here to hold your hand when the time comes and when life gets difficult. I know right now all you want is him out of the family home, but there are going to be times when you in a sense grieve for your relationship, i did, but i have come to now know that the man i married was not the man i left, he had changed in that time. Alcohol and/or drugs do that to someone, they take the person you love and change them into something un recognisable.

hillyhilly Wed 01-Aug-12 22:06:07

Found you Lala! Hope you're fast asleep and feeling the benefit of your night nanny giving you the help your dh could have long ago.
Good luck
Xx

YoulllWinGoldOneDay Wed 01-Aug-12 22:10:56

Hi Lala (I was 'youllllaugh' this is my olympic name).

You are doing so well. I actually found your thread in the quiet place a few days ago, and then, before I could post, pooof.

Just wanted to extend my good vibes on sleep training. Stay strong. We need to do something with DD2. 14 months, and still a good night is up twice, and a bad night, well.... What system are you and the night nanny using?

Doesn't a wedding ring normally live on the left hand confused. Or did you wear yours on your right before?

DippyDoohdah Wed 01-Aug-12 22:18:03

Hi la la.good to hear you so resolute, you are a strong and inspiring chick!

mathanxiety Wed 01-Aug-12 23:15:42

Hi again, Lala.

You know, I do think you have made progress -- just look at what you did there: you were fuming about the appointment snafu and you expressed it to the counsellors. You are champing at the bit and seem energised about moving on.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Wed 01-Aug-12 23:46:01

Hi Lala!

Glad to see you back! Rats about the mix up on the dates - can imagine your frustration as you probably want to ride the wave of confidence you are on!!!! When do you go again or do you have to wait for him to complete his session first?

How is everyone else around you dealing with it all? Does his sister know?

SecrectFarleysNibbler Wed 01-Aug-12 23:50:42

Btw - dd still going strong her own room! Finished all 3 of 'that series' !! sad and had confirmation of carple tunnel in my wrist sad will probably need small op to sort it - just confirms that life is just a constant stream of ups and downs!!!! Here's to you getting back up and clearly a stronger person! X

JUbilympiX Thu 02-Aug-12 01:30:30

Hey Lala! Gosh, you sound so confident - do you remember saying you hadn't been able to wash your hair because dh was staying in bed until 11, and you weren't allowed to use the shower until he got up? You are so different from that person who had forgotten that if she needed to have a shower while her h was lazing about in bed, then you could!

Bummer about the appt, but presumably he had it today? Hope he's staying calm and vaguely rational, even if he's not really being helpful.

Hope you're feeling more rested and can think more clearly. It sounds like you are.

<pom poms waving>

LalaDipsey Thu 02-Aug-12 06:49:41

Hiya!! Yes, moved to right hand blush
H away all week & not back til Friday so he goes to counsellor on his own on Monday. Then they have a meeting to decide if they will see us as a couple or not. If they will, we go the Monday after. If they won't, I will go on my own regardless of whether he does or not.
Math - snafu?!
Sleep training- we have gone for a 'spaced pick up' I suppose you'd call it.
- baby cries, pick them up, quick pat on the back with a quick cuddle (@5 seconds), put back down
- if baby still crying, wait 2 minutes & repeat
- wait 3, 4, 5 mins etc up to 10 mins but don't leave longer than 10 just keep repeating 10 minute gap.
Secret - well done on your sleep training that's fab. Sorry about your carpal tunnel it is supposed to be very painful.

LalaDipsey Thu 02-Aug-12 06:52:17

His sisters know we are having problems & they know he drinks too much. My mum had a bit of a chat with one of his sisters and kind of steered that he was not behaving but they don't have any idea really what he's been like. yet

Figgygal Thu 02-Aug-12 06:56:18

Hi lala

I also lost track once your other thread moved to the secret place at that point u were still together but glad to hear things have moved on for you

mathanxiety Thu 02-Aug-12 17:42:20

Snafu = mix up. smile (military slang)

SecrectFarleysNibbler Thu 02-Aug-12 19:20:04

Think you need to rally the troops form all quarters Lala - I would let his sisters know exactly what has been going on. My brother is a bombastic bully but also has this fantastic generous and funny side to him Jeckle and Hyde - really! Everyone thinks he is wonderful but he is such a T**t to us, his family. He would do anything for a friend but if I dane to ask for help I am being unreasonable. I would imagine your DH sisters will recognise this and not be that surprised by your truthful revelations. My brother had a girlfriend for a few years - I have no idea how she stuck it out and was always expecting her to come running to tell me how bloody awful he was. If she had I would have supported her to the hilt as I KNOW what a tosser he can be!

mummybussy Thu 02-Aug-12 20:00:42

Hi Lala.
So so impressed with you strength at the mo. your post have become so determined and focused. And I've followed you from the start...silently sending you good vibes and occasionally not being able to hide my thoughts when he has been a bigger t**t than usual.
Keep positive, keep focused and try and get some precious sleeeeep!!
Wishing you all the best with sleep training , I know what torture sleep deprevation can be (dd didn't sleep for more than 1 hour at a time through night for 2years) but difference being I had just the one(not 3dc!) and a semi supportive husband ...who slept through the 'noise' every night, but did give me some lie in's/naps every weekend. How you're still vaguely functioning is beyond me, so BRAVO TO YOU!! :-)
X

LalaDipsey Fri 03-Aug-12 06:43:10

I have decided to not lie to his sisters if they ask anything but I don't call them anyway so won't just to tell them. We don't see them very often, either.
Once he is moving out & tells his family I am sure his sisters will get in touch & I will tell them. He wouldn't listen to them anyway.
Last week, he said he was away all week so I booked the night nanny & then he said he'd be back Thursday & I said he couldn't because she was booked so I needed to sleep in his room whilst she slept with the babies. Anyway, he rang to say he didn't need to be away but he had booked a hotel room or could come home and 'jump into bed with me'!!! Like, because I've finally had some sleep (which he has not contributed to) I'm going to want that!
Obviously I said no.
At the end of the call he then said 'do you miss me?'
I said 'I'm not getting into that now' I mean FFS the nanny was sitting right next to me plus !???!!!!???
If he asks again I am going to say that I don't. That I miss the family life & husband I thought I would have but that I don't miss the drinking, anger and walking on eggshells!

LalaDipsey Fri 03-Aug-12 06:48:33

I think you're right,Secret it won't be a massive surprise from some questions they've asked me over the years. But of course at family gatherings he has tended to portray 'father of the year!' sorry your brother can be an absolute arse! sad
Thanks, mummybussy - gosh I don't know how you survived with no more than an hour wow!
Last night dts slept through 7-6 without needing picking up at all and no feeds!!! grin
Dtd woke twice before feeding at 11.45 and once after, at 5am so just 4x in total AND only fed once so mahoosive leaps forward!!! No more night nanny unless desperate so it's all up to me to follow through on now!!

NoWayNoHow Fri 03-Aug-12 09:12:50

Gosh, lala, he really is either blind and stupid, or incredibly manipulative (and I know which I'd put my money on).

Good on you for sticking to your guns. He's going to try every trick in the book now that he can feel you slipping away, so please be on your guard. One minute it will be flattery and begging and loveliness, the next it may be anger and quite a lot of it (especially once he's had a drink in him).

And I can't tell you how pleased I am that it's all picking up for you on the sleep front. It's about time!!!

mathanxiety Fri 03-Aug-12 18:46:39

The 'jumping into bed with you' and 'do you miss me?' comments are more examples of him simply refusing to listen to you and pretending you have no feelings that are worthy of his notice.

scarletforya Fri 03-Aug-12 19:28:09

grin Lala, I'm so pleased to read about your progress. I posted on one of your original threads.

I'm so happy you are making the break and in a way that you have chosen too.

Since I last wrote on your thread I've had a baby and it only makes me feel stronger that your enjoyment of your twins childhood is so important. Too important to be marred by your (STBX)h!

I just want to wholeheartedly wish you luck in your new happy future and I hope you and your DCs go from strength to strength!

sadwidow28 Fri 03-Aug-12 19:49:56

I think I posted on your other threads once Lala but lurked on them every day. I lost you when you went to the quiet place.

You sound enormously strong and resolute now - Well done! Your twins will appreciate your strength in the future when they are brought up in a loving atmosphere with a happy Mummy.

Keep it up. There is light at the end of the tunnel torch

LalaDipsey Fri 03-Aug-12 21:29:44

Thanks sadwidow and scarlet. I'm not always feeling strong and have had the odd little wobble but my mind is made up.
H has come home today after being away since Monday. I haven't missed him and don't really care he's back, I don't think.
I was reading the EA thread and one of the posts was about them being on holiday so the child was in the same room as them in a cot and they made a noise in the morning so the H shook the cot and said 'shut the fuck up'. Whilst I know this is wrong it didn't shock me at all and in no way seems strange. Wrong, yes but unusual, no.
There's my validation for splitting from him right there!
I do wish I could fast forward the next couple of months and I desperately want this counselling to kick in properly - either 'us' or me on my own so I can have that help to end it properly and start the conversations about him moving out.

MyLittleMiracles Fri 03-Aug-12 22:24:35

LALA the point of mumsnet is that when you do feel weak, and you will, i know i did, but i had the scars <literal> to look at to keep me going. When you are weak we will be here to help you stay strong, if you need a listening ear or someone to hold your hand and reassure you, we are here, i promise that although the next few months will be hard, IT WILL BE WORTH IT. I would say even after the split, keep going to the counselling, even if you feel like you dont need it.

scarletforya Fri 03-Aug-12 22:43:30

Take your time Lala, better to make good moves in your own time!

You're doing great, hope you have a good night with the twins. How are the nights going? I'm letting DP co-sleep with my PFB tonight <bites nails> <adjusts video monitor>

By baby is 6 weeks, how old are the twins now? grin

LalaDipsey Sat 04-Aug-12 06:44:00

Aw Scarlet 6 weeks old congratulations!! How did the co-sleeping go?
Twins are now 7 months which seems unbelievable. Sleep training this week going well - dts now sleeping through 7-5.50; dtd slept 7-12.30 last night (her longest stretch at that time of night ever!) when I fed her and then, although she woke again at 3, 4 & 5 it only took one quick pick up, pat, put back down & age was asleep again. Add dd waking at 2 and I'm still knackered this morning but this is sooooooo much better than a week ago so fingers crossed progress has been made!!

sadwidow28 Sat 04-Aug-12 07:12:16

Lala, you have made your decision - now you have to carry it through.

You really don't have to read other threads to validate yourself.

It is highly likely that once you are less stressed, the twins will be less stressed - and sleeping through the night could be an outcome!

Lala, stay on this thread if you need some support whilst you extricate yourself. I can't advise on all situations because I don't have experience, but I am mighty good at hand holding!

scarletforya Sat 04-Aug-12 10:31:51

That's a great stretch alright Lala, hope the progress continues! The co-sleeping went fine. Both survived, phew! grin

I take my hat off to you coping with three at night!

MyLittleMiracles Sat 04-Aug-12 11:58:53

Although individually we might not be able to give you the information you need we might be able to advise you where to get it and we will hold your hand through it all. If you live near me I would be more than happy to meet up (i know sometimes you just need someone to listen and understand) I was in an abusive marriage.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sat 04-Aug-12 17:42:46

Just need to check my Euro millions ticket Lala - if I have won I am sending a removals van with instructions for the driver to arrive and shout ' removals for Mr Lala!' this will be closely followed by a battalion of night nannies who will swap the the dc's for a large G&t and a copy of 50 Shades and strict instructions not to surface the next morning until 9am! They will greet you with full cooked breakfast in bed and three perfectly groomed little ones for you to play with!

Keep your fingers crossed!!! Lol! X

legoqueen Sat 04-Aug-12 19:03:34

Good to hear that you are okay Lala & that the sleep training is moving forward. I am certain that when you are less stressed, the DCs will be too, babies are very sensitive to tension x

LalaDipsey Sat 04-Aug-12 19:20:15

Thanks. Secret that sounds amazing grin
H has been bloody useless again today - you would have thought (but then again!....) that after being away all week he would have wanted to spend time with the dc but he has just dipped in & out all day.....
Plus we have tried to move the babies into better sleeping 'vehicles' so dts is out of the travel cot and in a real cot which now means I can't swing a cat in my room and on Monday once the 2nd mattress arrives dtd will be in a cot rather than a crib. At that point I won't be able to access the drawers or the wardrobe and will have to shimmy sideways to get around. The sooner H is out to free up the twins room the better I think!!

mummybussy Sat 04-Aug-12 20:14:31

He's just a complete waste of space, time, air? Isn't he!!
Just a thought, maybe get a camp bed set up in his precious office so you can reclaim YOUR bedroom. He spends so much time in there as it is surely he can sleep there too??

MrsTomHardy Sat 04-Aug-12 20:28:01

Glad things are moving forward for you now.

JUbilympiX Sat 04-Aug-12 21:48:50

Could you move a chest of drawers or wardrobe into the room he's sleeping in (or preferably both)? Then he can shimmy around stuff and you will have some space?

JUbilympiX Sat 04-Aug-12 21:50:16

Or is his room big enough that you could swap rooms around a bit? Rejig the 3 rooms so he gets smallest, you + twins get the biggest and dd the other?

DippyDoohdah Sat 04-Aug-12 22:08:37

Or could you move a wardrobe onto his head?! grin

mummybussy Sat 04-Aug-12 23:28:13

Lol Dippy, that is a good suggestion!

LalaDipsey Sun 05-Aug-12 06:46:09

Unfortunately I already have the biggest room. In H's room he already has the DTs chest of drawers and chest of blankets and crap and can't move around his bed. There is no way around it as long as he is here. If he does refuse to move out once divorce has been mentioned then I will push him. It's just a shame one of the reasons for splitting is that I don't trust him with the dc otherwise he could get a smaller bed and have one twin in with him.
Well, hopefully not for much longer. His DV assessment at relate is tomorrow. They will let us know by Wednesday if they will see us together or if we have to attend separately (& H attend some sort of programme I think). Either way, the following Monday I will be seeing a counsellor.

LalaDipsey Sun 05-Aug-12 06:46:47

Haha Dippy love it grin

DippyDoohdah Sun 05-Aug-12 07:44:42

You have an army of mums netters that am sure would present to help with such a manovre!
I hope counselling appt for him 2moro brings you to fastest resolution...are you prepared for , after,him either blaming you for highlighting his behaviour towards dcs or having a temporary experience of guilt, which could wobble you, but ultimately will not last..

MyLittleMiracles Sun 05-Aug-12 11:55:10

Yes, definitely ignore all tears, they aren't going to change anything. Stay strong. This is the only way forward. I know its gonna be hard and yep definitely have an army of mumsnetters behind you. We are here when you need spurring on and reassurance.

MyLittleMiracles Sun 05-Aug-12 11:56:54

Yes, definitely ignore all tears, they aren't going to change anything. Stay strong. This is the only way forward. I know its gonna be hard and yep definitely have an army of mumsnetters behind you. We are here when you need spurring on and reassurance.

LalaDipsey Mon 06-Aug-12 12:47:51

Ok. Panicking slightly that H is at the Dv assessment at the moment. What will he make of it? Can imagine his slightly 'puzzled laugh' at some of the questions and utter disbelief that they are asking them to him! Aaagghhhh

LalaDipsey Mon 06-Aug-12 12:49:56

He could come home and do a 'fuck this, if this is what you/they think of me there's no point'; could dismiss it; make light of it; go moody/cross/drink; go into super good behaviour mode...... Who knows?!?!

Aussiebean Mon 06-Aug-12 12:56:57

Fingers crossed for you Lala that this is a the start of something more positive for you, in regards to him.

thanks

JUbilympiX Mon 06-Aug-12 17:49:09

Might give him pause for thought. That would be a step in the right direction; too late and too little, but.....

NoWayNoHow Mon 06-Aug-12 18:06:40

It's so difficult, lala, to live with someone so unpredictable. He could go any of the ways your described, but whatever HE does, YOU need to be true to yourself and respond appropriately to whatever unexpected reaction comes from him

1. If it's "Fuck this, there's no point" then he'll FINALLY be on the same page as you, so you can tell him to make his plans to move out then.
2. If he dismisses it or makes light, then that will simply be yet more validation of the fact that he genuinely doesn't care how serious the matter is. Don't indulge him. If he's light hearted, tell him sternly that investigations of domestic abuse aren't something to laugh at, and walk out the room.
3. Make sure you have a phone to hand and an exit plan if he starts to lash out at you for "getting him into trouble"/"making him drink"/"making him miserable"
4. If it's good behaviour mode, make sure he knows that it's too little, too late and make sure you tell him that you're well aware of the fact that he uses this as a manipulation tactic, and that you won't be falling for it.

LalaDipsey Mon 06-Aug-12 19:24:10

Well, he came back and made a joky comment about giving me the receipt (they ask questions re FA too), then said he had found it really helpful! WTF?
Dc were around and he had to go out to an appointment (cynic in me says he made the appt so he would have an excuse to go 'suited & booted' to relate!) so I will find out shortly what he thought in a bit more detail.
At least he's not angry and maybe it has made him think. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall to hear him answering the same questions I did to see the disparity between our perceptions (& indeed any similarities!)

SecrectFarleysNibbler Mon 06-Aug-12 20:12:37

Think he might be wrong stepping you here. He's either extremely calculating or so oblivious to his poor behaviour he just doesn't get it. Either isn't good enough!!! Don't wobble - keep focused - keep in your mind a visualisation of what you want and how different it will be down the line.

He may be treating it as an amusing trip out and this would be a massive act of disrespect to the whole situation.

NoWayNoHow Mon 06-Aug-12 20:44:18

YY to secret - just be careful that you don't get confused by this.

If he's joking about it, he's not taking it seriously.

If he says he found it helpful, ask him in what way.

If it REALLY helped him, he would be remorseful, ashamed, and grovelling at your feet for forgiveness for his revolting behavious over the last year.

If he doesn't respond like this, then it's all talk, as usual. Saying what he thinks you want to here, showing what he feels is an appropriate level of interest.

Unless he is wracked with guilt and weeping about what a dreadful and awful husband and father he's been, then rest assured there's been no massive revelation - it's just acting...

LalaDipsey Mon 06-Aug-12 21:14:18

Pants pants pants. How come with one comment he can make me feel sick & guilty?!
Remember when he was away last week he called and asked if I missed him?
Well, when he got back on Friday dd was expecting my friend and her son round so when the door went dd got excited and said 'it's aunty a and b!!'. So that she didn't utterly deflate when she saw it was H I said 'no, it's daddy let's go and say hello' and I and dd went downstairs to say hi with me holding dtd.
Anyway, just now H said
'I asked you a question last week and on Friday dd, you and dtd came down to say hello. Why?'
I said 'dd hadn't seen you all week so i accompanied her down and happened to be holding dtd'
He said, sadly 'so you just came down for dd and dtd. Right'
He has now sadly gone to bed.
I guess he was hoping I would say I had missed him and was coming to say hello.
Why does that small, relatively insignificant exchange make me feel sick, stomach twisty, guilty and like I should reassure him? I immediately wanted to make him feel better. I now feel like crap.

DippyDoohdah Mon 06-Aug-12 21:17:42

Because he wants you to adore him although he has done virtually nothing to nurture your marriage and family...x

mathanxiety Mon 06-Aug-12 22:20:44

He is playing poor little puppy. That is why you feel stomach twisty.

It is amazing how he can basically check out of your family life for 7 months -- no, it's even worse -- make that family life infinitely more difficult than it needed to be, stand aside and watch you wearing yourself almost into a hole in the ground with the twins and the reflux and little DD to take care of, and yet feel sorry for himself through it all.

Like you, Lala, I would love to have been a fly on the wall for his appointment. I would imagine his DV assessment was quite a shock to his system. The sad puppy dog act shows that it was not the least bit 'helpful' to him in any sense that you might hope he would use the word. I agree with you that he went suited and booted for a reason.

You don't have to be seen together if you don't feel like it, Lala, no matter what the counsellors suggest.

DippyDoohdah Tue 07-Aug-12 06:28:05

His sad little soldier act with you deflects perfectly away from the reason why he had to go alone to relate yesterday x

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 07-Aug-12 07:06:18

Hi Lala, I lost you after your thread went to the mysterious place on MN that I have no idea where it is or the secret password!

You do sound like a different person. Please don't be ashamed for reacting, you're only human! You have your resolve and as another poster said, an army of MNetters behind you!

You really are like a new person. A happy one. xx

LalaDipsey Tue 07-Aug-12 08:50:31

Thanks. Need keeping on course! He's acting all hurt and quiet and sulky this morning and it's making me feel awful (why??!). I thought my emotions had pretty much gone but he can still flip me.
Found myself wondering if I should just try giving the relationship 100% to see if there's a chance... But then I remember something like being called a 'fucking lazy bitch' for leaving a couple of bowls on the draining board when I had managed to clean up and wash up carrying both twins in a sling when they were very small after running around after all 3 dc all day and no sleep and think again!!

NoWayNoHow Tue 07-Aug-12 08:50:55

This is classic "deflection, deflection, deflection" - what was actually important yesterday was what happened in the DV assessment. In order to avoid talking about that, your H has leapt back to a completely different subject with extremely strong emotional connotations to throw you. It's difficult not to have a reaction to someone when you see them feeling sorry for themselves, and unfortunately for you, this man has had many many years of practice when it comes to learning how to push your buttons to get the reaction he wants.

You're new at this lala - you've only just seen the light, and it's not a light that stays on once the switch is flipped. It's learned behaviour, or i should say re-learned behaviour, and you need to give yourself time to figure out normality again.

Of course the encounter made you feel a bit sick - he's using the same old tricks he's been using on you for years, so it's not surprising that you've had partially the same reaction as you have always had. You're not superwoman, and it's going to take a while.

But lala this is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING:::

You wanted to comfort him, BUT YOU DIDN'T

Yes, he managed to go to bed without discussing what happened yesterday (which would have been his aim), but he didn't sway you

Well done!!!

NoWayNoHow Tue 07-Aug-12 09:01:33

X-post with your last post.

Why don't you walk up to him, look him in the eye, and say to him, "Give it a rest with the pity party, H, because if you think it's going to get you out of talking about the impact that your behaviour has had on our vulnerable children, then think again."

Don't play into his hands. He needs to see the new lala now so that he understands that his old tricks will no longer work.

More than that, Lala, you REALLY need to get him out of your house.

This head-fuckery isn't doing you any good, and it's just another thing to add to your plate, which is already full with taking sole care of your DC.

lagartija Tue 07-Aug-12 09:05:22

Glad to find you again, Lala...didnt know where the quiet place was. You sound in a much better place now, but i agree with NoWay you need to get him out of the house, he's messing with your mind.

LalaDipsey Tue 07-Aug-12 09:09:50

I think that's exactly how it is NoWayNoHow thankyou that makes sense.
He has now left for work without coming upstairs just saying a grumpy 'bye' as he left.

JUbilympiX Tue 07-Aug-12 11:37:43

Can you just ask him this evening, once the kids are in bed, in what way he found the session helpful? If you can, and he doesn't give you a straight, honest answer, you can simply say that you asked him this question and that's what you are talking about now. If you really need to placate him, you could add that you can talk about what he wants to after, but right now you both need to discuss this and reiterate the question.

Of course, if he gets angry or physical, get out.

LalaDipsey Tue 07-Aug-12 12:34:22

Yes I could (& should) ask him. it's just this urge to be really 'off' with him and not get into anything which takes over! You know, when you're being civil and pleasant but not warm or emotional? That's how I am with him now. Suppressed anger probably!
But I am intrigued so will try to muster up an attempt!!

LalaDipsey Tue 07-Aug-12 12:51:11

And I'm still feeling guilty!!!!!! I want to make him feel better. Uurrggggghhhhhhhh

GeekLove Tue 07-Aug-12 13:09:40

Everytime you want to make him feel better think of all the times he made you feel lik shit.
Have been a lurker but you have come such a long way. Unlearning the art of comforting a douchbag is hard. I found that when I bumped into my 2 years since ex I still sort of wanted to say hello and be friendly even though he was a manipulative little turd who i had flushed from my life.

Lala

My mum still felt guilty about my and I supporting my dad when he was dying although he had left her for bitch ow 15 years before.

Because she still loved him. And his wife 'didn't do hospitals' so it was down to us.

You can still love him but that doesn't mean you need to spend the next 40yrs being treated like a 2nd class citizen.

LalaDipsey Tue 07-Aug-12 13:33:37

I know!
Relate have just confirmed they will see us together which I think is a good thing. However the counsellor has said she will see me on my own if I want to for a session. Now I could and would like to but it would mean leaving all 3 dc with the nanny (mum is paying for a nanny to do 2 days a week for 6 weeks to help out) either tomorrow or next week. She has done 3 days so far. Seems competent. Dd thinks she's great. DTs would be asleep for most of it.
I've only ever left dc with my mum or my best friend. Only left all 3 dc once for my counselling session a couple of weeks ago.
What do you think?

LalaDipsey Tue 07-Aug-12 13:34:48

That wasn't a 'cocky I don't need your opinion' 'I know' it was a rueful, collaborative, how pants you are in a similar situation 'I know'

LalaDipsey Tue 07-Aug-12 14:11:00

Twunt! he has just come in. I put the kettle on (guilt was winning). He parked behind me so I went into the kitchen to say we are going out shortly so he'd need to let me out.
1) he was making his own tea - didn't make me one
2) he said 'can you pick more milk up on your way back?'. I said 'no, I can't. It's too hard with the 3dc'
- to 'pop out' of the car I would have to get the buggy out. All 3 dc out of car. Twins into buggy. Into shop with dd wanting sweets/magazine etc. Get milk. Argue or give in to dd. Back to car. Babies in car. Dd into car. Buggy dismantled and into car. Too fucking hard. He could pop to the end of the road and back in 2 minutes.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 07-Aug-12 14:25:42

Lala no one thinks you're cocky. smile You need to stop second guessing yourself, he's made you feel that you need to explain any 'I know' because 'he knows best.' [Insert eyeroll here] It's amazing when you leave an abusive relationship how you find yourself again and learn to breathe again. That part must feel wonderful, focus on that!

Don't be ashamed you still love/miss him, or even deep down wish he'd magically change (not saying you do.) That's all so normal, you've been together a long time and he's the father of your children. You're human hun, you'd have to be a robot not to emotionally effected. Please don't feel shame. Embrace those feelings, embrace your grief because you are grieving a loss here. Allowing yourself to hurt is all part of the process.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 07-Aug-12 14:27:28

Getting nice and angry is all part of the process too! grin I'm way younger than you but I hope you don't mind me saying how proud I am of you! In fact, you inspire me a great deal. blush

Geez with that comment AND a 'hun,' I really should run off to netmums...blush

NoWayNoHow Tue 07-Aug-12 14:40:32

lala he's never going to change.

He will never make you the cup of tea you want without you begging for it and sacrificing who you are and your children's happiness you can tell I'm not really talking about tea

I would definitely do the counselling session yourself, you will benefit enormously from it.

ABSOLUTELY DO one more joint counselling session to set out a plan of action for your separation, and attach a timescale and conditions to it.

DON'T DO more joint counselling if you're trying to find a way back from the separation to a happy marriage with this man. It's never going to happen, you would be torturing yourself, and exposing yourself to more emotional hurt from him.

The man you want to be married to doesn't exist inside the man you're actually married to. But I can tell you, as can many others on this thread, that he DOES exist somewhere else...

SecrectFarleysNibbler Tue 07-Aug-12 19:45:07

Well done Lala for not getting the milk. He wants you to go and get milk for his cup of tea when he can't be arsed to make one for you as well?!£&!?£&?!? What a toss**!

JUbilympiX Tue 07-Aug-12 21:16:48

What a wanker.

mummybussy Tue 07-Aug-12 22:59:37

How you didn't pick the tea up and chuck it in his face is beyond me!! *raging*!!!!!!!!
He's an insensitive, self indulgent, cruel, less-than-a-man, man. Did he even acknowledge that you'd boiled the kettle for him?? thanked you for not pouring it over his balls?

SecrectFarleysNibbler Tue 07-Aug-12 23:01:58

Have you set yourself a limit on how many counselling sessions you are prepared to go to with him?? He could use this process to string out leaving and before you know it life is going on just as before on the back of attending sessions. If you want to end this then I think you have to make this explicit in the first session and start taking decisive action to make it happen - like refusing things like getting the milk and absolutely excluding him.

mathanxiety Wed 08-Aug-12 01:35:10

So the DV session wasn't that helpful after all. He clearly learned nothing.

My guess is he is blanking it all out as much as he can. He is a man who wears a suit and shiny shoes. He has a job. He is not an abuser -- just a misunderstood man whose (cold, frigid, obsessive) wife has no time for him after he went through with all the hassle and expense of fertility treatment and gave her what she wanted, and despite all he does for her and for the DCs at work...

Lala, I hope you will go to the individual counselling.

I hope you are prepared mentally and emotionally for a lot of button pushing and manipulation, twisting of what you say, and messing with your mind at the joint sessions.

Relationship counselling with an abuser who is also addicted to alcohol has a very slim chance of not driving you crazy. If you find yourself tied up in knots, having an extreme emotional reaction (flooding), getting nowhere, being blamed, you have every right to call it quits and do individual counselling instead.

If you find yourself having an emotional reaction like the one you had with the 'poor me' act he put on, it is because your rational mind is trying desperately to square the circle here. Somewhere inside your gut is telling you 'that's not right/that's not fair/what about me?' When you notice things like the absence of his cold 'Bye' in the morning, pay attention and put it in the debit column.

Denial, projection, blame-shifting, manipulation, playing the sympathy card are all the stock in trade of the abuser. Do not get in involved in talking about specific things he brings up. All he wants to do is absolve himself of responsibility for the way the relationship has gone when he tries to talk about the past. Do not engage with his statements about you -- I suspect there will be plenty and it will do your head in if you allow it.

Your agenda is to help steer the relationship out the door and into your separate futures with the minimum of rancour. Do you think you are ready to state that out loud and keep that on the table, brushing all else off? If it looks as if that is not happening, you are under no obligation to continue beating your head against the wall with the joint counselling. A good solicitor will also be able to accomplish your goal for you.

Phrases to use when he accuses you of running the relationship into the ground or of being impossible to understand:
I will not accept that from you. What I need is...
You are confusing the issue. What I said was../ What I need from you is...
Your tone is abusive and it is confusing my point. What I need from you is...

Be prepared for sarcasm, plenty of 'you always' and 'you never', 'you are so hard to understand', 'I can't read your mind', 'I gave up drinking and it's still not good enough for you', 'I can't win with you'...

Don't get bogged down answering him directly. Brush him off and direct the sessions to your agenda.

You are dealing with an abuser here, Lala, and I am afraid there will be a serious attempt by your H to make you accept responsibility for the abuse you and the DCs have received. You are in no way responsible for anything he has felt or thought or done or said or not done or not said or not felt or not thought. This is not to say you are some sort of angel walking among the mortals here. What I am saying is that he alone is responsible for his choices; he has had every chance to choose better. He has failed.

www.lisaescott.com/forum/2011/10/02/how-abusers-stage-their-returns

NoWayNoHow Thu 09-Aug-12 08:45:12

How are you doing this morning, lala?

LalaDipsey Thu 09-Aug-12 19:50:39

Hiya
Math I know that what you're saying makes utter sense but (& please do tell me if I'm being utterly bonkers) H and I had a talk on Tuesday night about his counselling session.
He said he realises his behaviour has been appalling and has to change and he needs help. He said he was now 'at peace' with whatever the outcome of me and him was and wasn't going to fight it. He was really rational. He just said he wants us to start communicating again and being able to talk rather than just being civil as we will need to do this even if he isn't living here about the dc. He seemed humbled.
I don't know, it has just made me question a little bit whether he could change. But then I remember that even if he could be the husband I need him to be again (which actually I think is realistically very possible) he can never be the father I need him to be as it's just not in him. He doesn't wake up on a Saturday morning and think 'Great, it's the weekend. What can we do with the children today? What will make dd happy? Park and picnic? Let's do that!'
Oh I don't know. Am just a little wobbly I guess. Only a little. Joint counselling on Tuesday and then I have a solo session the following Monday.
Later on though just to really confuse me H was talking about whether he should book Christmas off this year????!!!!! As if I will really have anything to do with that?!

NoWayNoHow Thu 09-Aug-12 20:11:54

Lala, your H has been talking to you for months. He's been telling you what you want to hear for months. This has kept you in an ongoing, never-ending, hellish cycle since your DTs were born (and even before).

After all this talking on Tuesday, what ACTION has he said he will now take to "change and get the help he needs" as he put it?

Unless he has a plan and knows what he needs to do and how he's going to do it, and unless this plan is already in action, then I'm afraid all you're getting is the practised bullshit of a serial bullshitter.

He's done this too you SO many times, for the express purpose of making you wobble. And it's worked.

PLEASE don't get sucked back into the cycle. If he genuinely meant everything he said on Tuesday (oh wait, lookit that, it was just him speaking again. About him.) then he will ask you what YOU want him to do.

Four days ago, he didn't even bother to make you a cup of tea after YOU had boiled the kettle. Somehow, I highly doubt he's even bothered in this talk you had to even enquire after your needs. Am I wrong?

LalaDipsey Thu 09-Aug-12 20:45:16

He did say he was stupid and no good at guessing what I wanted and I needed to spell out to him what I wanted him to do and 'stick a post-it note on his head if necessary'
Maybe I am being unrealistic - should I have to spell out that when dc are crying they need picking up? When a nappy is dirty it needs changing? When I have no sleep I need a rest? That I need a break?

NoWayNoHow Thu 09-Aug-12 20:49:32

No. You shouldn't have to spell it out. And, to be honest, he's once again focusing on the little things to distract from his drinking the big things. I know that him extricating himself from family life feels like such a big thing for you lala because it's ongoing and leaves you so tired, but it's just a symptom, not the root problem itself.

It sounds like he's trying to overwhelm you with asking for examples of his bad behaviour and getting you to write a manual - "How to be a good father and husband". It's bogging you down in minutiae when the big, main, huge, unavoidable problem is simply who he is.

Next time he asks what you want and need, tell him you want and need a husband who doesn't have to be begged, cajoled, and tutored in being a minimally decent human being.

lagartija Thu 09-Aug-12 21:01:23

same old bullshit from him Lala. He'll always mess with your head like this, he's had years of practice. He needs to leave. Now.

DippyDoohdah Thu 09-Aug-12 21:17:03

Hi lala. Take this from one who knows: even if you roll over to be a surrendered wife and not the mum that we know you are and read all the post-its on his head etc, it will not make any difference. Once your pang of guilt and 'Could I have done more?' ..er maybe i could so i will keep plugging away ...has passed, you will totally resent the blindingly obvious neglect of your basic needs crapness... and panic that you are back at square one. 2 babies and a toddler and a husband needing things..wow. But when you have an older child, two demanding toddlers and a husband who psychologically and practically checks out as soon as things are not as he wants..my god. Think you know we project onto each other! But hope this makes sense ((hugs))

JUbilympiX Fri 10-Aug-12 00:19:54

No, Lala. Nobody needs any of that to be spelt out to them. Nor does anyone need to be told that when you are making tea you need to at least ask if anyone else could do with one.

Sorry, but this is same old, same old.

JUbilympiX Fri 10-Aug-12 00:20:12

And you're falling for it again.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Fri 10-Aug-12 00:59:46

'stick a note on my head to remind me' - so apart from ALL the child care you do you Are also requested to micro manage his parenting by reminding him what a parent should at any given time!!! It's beyond unreasonable - he is sooooo lazy or really couldn't give a t***. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter what the causes of his dreadful behaviour are - you need to keep focused on how bad it's made you and the kids feel - so many people have suggested that he will now throw ant defence possible into the mix.

DavidHume Fri 10-Aug-12 01:59:51

Lala: i lurked in your other threads. I read the title of this I really hoped the you had left him.

I know you want to believe him; you want him to start being the man you need, not the man he has been. But, his reaction should be telling you that he is incapable of doing this. Telling you to remind him to be a good parent /husband is not taking responsability for his actions or making any effort to change. It is just doing the same he has always done, make you responsible for all he does. Thus when he misbehaves (and he will) it will be all your fault, as it always has been. And he will take it out on you as he always has done.

If he really wanted to change he wouldn't still be gas lighting you and making out he is the injured party to get you to feel guilty. He wouldn't be asking youto pop to the shops and not offer to make you a cuppa. He would be bending over backwards to help you with your dc.

What he is doing is trying to get you back to where you were a couple of months ago. He liked that status quo. He doesn't like the new one. And he won't move out while he still thinks he can pressure and guilt you back into going back to the way things were. You need to tell him to stop playing games and to leave. Please; for your sake and for your dc.

mathanxiety Sat 11-Aug-12 05:56:31

'He did say he was stupid and no good at guessing what I wanted and I needed to spell out to him what I wanted him to do and 'stick a post-it note on his head if necessary'

Bloody hell, Lala -- have you fallen for that???

It's the 'Save Me From Myself Routine' and it comes with the subtext of 'I know, I'll flatter her into thinking she can save me'. The other subtext is 'You speak in riddles Lala'. You are being gaslighted here.

Forget about your so-called 'rational conversation' where he said he was at peace with whatever the outcome of you and him. Lala -- he is suckering you in again because his ego can't take the fact that you have finally wised up just as wife number one did all those years ago.

He is absolutely not taking any personal responsibility for anything here, Lala, neither the past nor the present nor whatever happens in the future.

'Maybe I am being unrealistic - should I have to spell out that when dc are crying they need picking up? When a nappy is dirty it needs changing? When I have no sleep I need a rest? That I need a break? '

Lala, rephrase this -- ''What kind of a moron needs to be told all of the above?'

You are being bonkers. There is no such thing as magic.

mathanxiety Sat 11-Aug-12 06:33:19

If there really is no part of you that raises its hackles when he says something like 'I'm no good at guessing what you want' then you need a lot of counselling.

Does that not make you bang your head really hard against a wall, or better still, want to bang his?

That is pure gaslighting.

Gaslighting is telling you a version of events that fits in with his unshakeable self image. It involves a complete reframing of everything that has gone on since your DD was born and especially since the twins' birth.

He refuses to believe that he is abusive.
It is far easier for him to hint to you that you speak gibberish, that you make him read your mind, that the two of you are you are not communicating well.

The poor communication aspect is something you come back to again and again Lala, as if you feel you need to somehow find the exact right words or phrase that will make him see the light here, and there will be an epiphany on his part.

You feel that way because of the way he blanks you out -- this is a habit of his that has already been noticed by the counsellor (you see it in the remark about Christmas but you are not joining all the dots here). You are desperate to be heard. That is why you grasp so hopefully at any semblance of rationality he shows. He is just as determined to ignore you completely when he seems rational as he is when he seems irrational.
That 'better communication' you dream of is not going to happen. It will never happen. Please, please stop hoping it can happen.

When he says to you that all it would have taken (while he has been drunk, hopping in the kitchen in anger, asleep until 11 am, away at work, holed up in his office and yelling about the little fuckwit of a son you have foisted on him) to be the man you wanted him to be was for you to simply say the word, he is insulting your intelligence and attempting to drive you stark raving mad.

When he says he can't read your mind what he is doing is blaming you for everything he has done and failed to do. He is not holding out hope that better communication will improve things.

The DV session was not 'helpful'. He is fighting the DV label all the way.

Lala -- you are not ready for joint counselling with this man. He is going to walk all over you if you go ahead with it. Your desire to do it and to be finally heard is sooooooo dangerous here.

“Gaslighting is a form of intimidation or psychological abuse in which false information is presented to the victim, making them doubt their own memory and perception.”

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sat 11-Aug-12 07:54:46

Morning Lala - how's things?

NoWayNoHow Sat 11-Aug-12 09:48:02

Morning lala

Hope you're good on this beautiful Saturday morning, and that you've got a lovely day planned for you and the DC.

I know it's not my place, but I would really recommend that you read, and re-read, and print out, and read again, math's last two posts. Take it in, understand it, and use it. Don't get sucked in again - you've come so far for him to undo it all again.

lagartija Sat 11-Aug-12 11:16:37

Math is so right and so wise. You're not getting any further forward here Lala. You need him to leave. It's over. Enough.

JUbilympiX Sat 11-Aug-12 11:30:39

Lala, where are you? Are you alright?

Snorbs Sat 11-Aug-12 12:43:37

On Friday he tried "Do you miss me" in the hope that absence would've made your heart grow fonder, but that didn't work.

On Monday he tried "So you only came to say hello because of the DCs" in the hope that you'd feel all guilty and so stroke he ego, but that didn't work.

On Thursday he tried "he was at peace with whatever outcome is" in the hope that you'd panic and beg him to try again, but that didn't work.

So he then tried the "You just need to tell me what to do" approach in the hope of transferring his responsibility to be an involved and loving parent on to you. As if the only reason he's been an utterly selfish, untrustworthy drunken arse up until now is because you haven't told him how badly he's been behaving. (Although I would be sorely tempted to stick a post-it note on his forehead every morning saying "Stop drinking", but I know it would be pointless.)

Is his latest piece of emotional manipulation going to be the one that works to get you back in the place he wants you? Or are you going to pay more attention to what he does, rather than what he says?

LalaDipsey Sat 11-Aug-12 18:52:06

I'm here. Reading and re-reading and knowing you all make sense and history dictates this will not last.
It's just that he's surpassed all expectations today. He gave DTs breakfast for the first time and has fully engaged in family life all day - not just opted in and out.
Part of me wonders if this is for the benefit of our joint counselling session on Tuesday though....
.... And I have seem through a couple of comments thanks to all your voices in my head! when I thanked him for feeding DTs breakfast he said 'there you go - you smiled at me so I helped out' or words to that effect - basically implying it was my fault he hadn't done this before right?
And then he cleared up after their dinner and he wiped the table & the Bumbos and said 'there we go - cleanest they've ever been!' - implying I don't clean well enough (& they weren't as spotless as I get them anyway!)
So, good but odd day & I do feel I can see through/past some of his behaviour now even if I am hoodwinked by some of it too
How do I feel though? I still feel closed off, separated. You're right though, Math I am DESPERATE for him to see how wrong he has been and how none of this is my fault. I am trying to remember what I read on another thread though 'he was unreasonable in your relationship what makes you think he will be reasonable now you have split up'

NoWayNoHow Sat 11-Aug-12 19:37:30

The whole thing just sounds like a performance. Like an actor taking to the stage and immersing himself in the role, knowing that this one will make or break his career. (obviously the "career" in this case is his comfy set up where his wife does everything and he does nothing).

He will be making the assumption (and, God willing it will be wrong) that he's done enough time playing good dad and husband to make sure that wifey knows that she is responsible for all his behaviour, and now she'll stop trying to upset the status quo.

Those comments send shivers down my spine and have actually made me feel really quite sick and nervous to my stomach lala. It's SUCH manipulative mind-fucking behaviour. Math is absolutely right - he is trying to rewrite your reality and gaslighting you at every turn.

I'm glad that you are seeing through some of it, but in all the time I've been following your thread, this is the most worried for you I've ever been.

He is becoming more and more and more emotionally abusive. This is about so much more than drinking. Stick to your guns, write down what you want to say at joint counselling about the separation, and don't allow him to deviate from YOUR script.

And, please - if you're going to joint counselling with any other agenda besides getting support to fully end this dangerous relationship, then DON'T DON'T DON'T DON'T GO

JUbilympiX Sat 11-Aug-12 20:24:21

OK, he's surpassed all expectation today; I hate to say this is because your expectations are pretty low, but I will anyway. His comments still say 'this is your job really, but I'm going to do it anyway, and make sure you know I have'. It sounds like he's chalking up things to say at counselling, to prove he's doing things and show that you will be unreasonable to want to continue with the separation.

Be prepared for him throwing this at you. "Too little, too late" is a good response, and perfectly reasonable. Stick to your guns.

mathanxiety Sat 11-Aug-12 21:10:13

'there you go - you smiled at me so I helped out' or words to that effect - basically implying it was my fault he hadn't done this before right?
And then he cleared up after their dinner and he wiped the table & the Bumbos and said 'there we go - cleanest they've ever been!' - implying I don't clean well enough (& they weren't as spotless as I get them anyway!)

I want to slap him into the middle of next week.

He has told you flat out that you are:
(1) a sourpuss.
(2) a slattern.
(3) not a good parent.

How can you possibly call this 'surpassing all expectations' without the slightest hint of irony??

The implication is that if you were to doll yourself up and make an effort to get back into bed with him god only knows what feats of parenting and husbanding he would be capable of.

'So, good but odd day'

Lala, he has insulted you on three levels and once again told you this is all about how you are treating him.
How is that a good day?

He can't give without taking. He can't resist the digs. He can't stop tearing you down -- and you think this was a good day in some respects?

What you have described is emotional and psychological abuse.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sat 11-Aug-12 21:11:56

there you go - you smiled at me so I helped out'. You have heard of Pavalos dogs haven't you? He s conditioning you AGAIN!! " I will only help if you behave as I require" I think you would have had to hold me back from ramming the breakfast spoon somewhere where the sun don't shine!!! As for his bumbo comments he is simply undermining you - it's all " me me me" again - " look what I can do WHEN I want to " is there room for the bumbo seat behind the spoon?????

mathanxiety Sat 11-Aug-12 21:19:25

'Math I am DESPERATE for him to see how wrong he has been'

Lala, you must address this desperate need in separate counselling before you even think of any joint counselling with him.

This is your achilles heel. He will find it and exploit it and you will lose. He has brought you this low so that he can win in this relationship. You don't seem to understand that for him your relationship is a win or lose proposition and there is no question of mutuality or a common good -- there is no WE in this man's mind. If he wins you have to lose, and he is determined to win.
You have to play this game and you have to win.

If you don't address your weakness, all he has to do is say a few words and you will be right back where you started -- unless you can build on that feeling of being closed off and separated. That feeling of separation is your foundation.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sat 11-Aug-12 21:28:21

Math is right - my mum, ( yep - back to her again!!), explained to me that love and hate are the sides of the same coin. They both take up spades of emotion to deploy and both give the other person attention. The killer is indifference - to be in a place where you have no emotion either way, you take NO TIME to spend ANY emotion on the person. While you are receiving attention from another person, be it positive or negative, you are getting attention and this gives a sense of satisfaction - to get nothing, no reaction, no emotion good or bad is truly hurtful. This dynamic in the relationship needs to flip. You need to reach a point of indifference.

lagartija Sat 11-Aug-12 21:58:50

You need to file divorce papers and have him leave. You're just going round in circles and he's playing you like a fiddle. Go to counselling yourself to get yourself ready to leave this relationship NOW.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sat 11-Aug-12 22:25:15

You don't need him to realise how wrong he has been. You just need to move on and put your energies into new horizons. Imagine a big post it note on his head reading 'write off". It's like you are pouring money to mend a car that is irrevocably broken - madness! Be strong Lala - you know what your gut is telling you - this whole thing is a dead duck. You need to shut off all avenues that he can use to manipulate you. You ave declared a separation - BE separate. If he wants to help out, ( now ) , then arrange to ' hand' the kids over and leave him to it for half an hour! Sure his true colours will out! It's all too little too late.

Midwife99 Sat 11-Aug-12 22:32:21

Hi Lala, I have posted on this particular thread yet but have on the previous. You do sound much stronger than you were but I worry that he is still manipulating you. What do you really want the outcome to be?

“Gaslighting is a form of intimidation or psychological abuse in which false information is presented to the victim, making them doubt their own memory and perception.”

Just keep repeating this Lala.....he is working his way back to you,don't let him.

mathanxiety Sat 11-Aug-12 22:47:54

'there you go - you smiled at me so I helped out'

Urrrrrrgh.

That 'There you go' --
Whether he said those words exactly or whether that was what you sensed, Lala, there is breathtaking contempt there.

sadwidow28 Sun 12-Aug-12 15:38:12

Lala, how are you doing sweetie?

Snorbs Sun 12-Aug-12 17:11:18

^ I am DESPERATE for him to see how wrong he has been^

That is understandable. As humans we have a strong tendency to expect others to behave the way we would. If you or I had treated someone we professed to love as shittily as he has (and still is) treating you, then we'd try really hard to take responsibility for our actions.

But he's not you. He doesn't see things the way you do.

Let's imagine that he never takes responsibility for his choices. How would that change things for you? How long are you willing to wait before you decide that he's not going to see things the way you do?

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sun 12-Aug-12 20:31:20

Even when YOU feel that he is making an effort he makes comments that just don't reassure you that he is taking part in a loving, giving, unconditional relationship. It's still a game, point scoring, snide remarks and controlling behaviour - and by your own admission this is him at his best.

"did you miss me?" instead of ' I missed you' for example.

Lala - it's time - make the break - for good - make him go - I can not tell you how good you will feel knowing that you are in charge of what you and your ducklings are doing, not to feel the need to walk on eggshells, not to feel deflated after every snide remark that brings you down.

Do you believe in you? Do you know you have the strength? Oh yes! ANYONE who has done what you have physically and mentally so far has a core of steel! The irony is that it will probably be easier without him tagging on with his baggage.

Look at these Olympic winners - have a dream and go for it Lala - you deserve gold!! Xx

DippyDoohdah Sun 12-Aug-12 22:04:23

My h makes those "look how well I can do it for you "(clean/parenting etc) when he decides to give me a taste of what he can randomly do.it's horrible as it serves to undermine your confidence and ability, and undermine your conviction that they just cannot and will not do what you have needed them to fo for bloody ages

hillyhilly Mon 13-Aug-12 09:14:56

Lala, is it your sole counselling session today? Please don't lose sight of what you need to achieve here. You are letting him be a puppet master, he is pulling all the strings at the moment.
Good luck

Whisky4Tea Mon 13-Aug-12 14:38:57

[This is DavidH under a new name btw]

Lala: Math speaks sense. I know it is really hard to hear and that you don't want it to be true, but it is. Your posts demonstrate that you can see through all his games. So try as hard as you can not to go along with them.

I don't think he wants to see what a shit he is. He isn't going to listen how you want him too, will he show the remorse you want him to. His tactic is to carry on manipulating you and making sure everything is your fault, so you feel guilty. He will do this in the counselling session. I hope you can cope with it.

You need to counselling on your own, where your voice is the one heard and your needs are being met. And you need to tell your h to sling his hook. It will all be easier once he is not there on a daily basis making you feel like crap.

LalaDipsey Mon 13-Aug-12 19:16:40

Hi all. I'm not ignoring you. I keep reading and re-reading your posts (if only, Math, MNHQ hadn't deleted the last 2 threads I think I would one day be tempted to publish your posts (with your permission of course!) as the Confuscious (sp?!) of the 21st century. You make so much sense.
Joint counselling tomorrow. Solo session next Monday. I am prepared this time for him to come over very reasonable, give examples of his 'good behaviour' etc.
His comments at the weeknd which put me down - do you think these are conscious or subconscious for him? If I say tomorrow that he negates helping out when he devalues me will he take it on board/be shocked he has acted in that way or go in a huff that 'he can't do anything right and if that's my attitude there's no point him trying' ok no point answering that is there?!
I still want him gone, if only to clear my head. If he would only agree to a trial separation (physically) for 6 months that would be my ideal. Give me some space to see exactly what I want and if I miss him at all because don't think I would. I don't think I have love left for him.
But he won't. If he moves out it's over as far as he's concerned.
At least I told the counsellor when I saw her 1:1 that I wanted it to be over so hoping she will help me tomorrow.
I do hope I don't come back on here tomorrow night saying how right you all were about joint counselling but sadly I think I will

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Mon 13-Aug-12 19:40:06

They're subconscious in the sense he probably actually believes them. sad But they're definitely very careful, deliberate, and precise in timing. He's always been a manipulator, now he'll be at his peak.

He won't take ANYTHING on board Lala! He doesn't think he's done anything wrong, ever. He may pay lipservice and say what you want to hear, but he'll never mean it. He's an abuser.

I know you want him to change. But he won't. He won't ever change. He'll always be a cruel, selfish being.

Why do you want a trial separation? He's put you through so much already Lala. sad And your beautiful DC. sad

He's not going to change. The longer you drag this out, the more chance he has to manipulate you and cloud your judgement.

lagartija Mon 13-Aug-12 20:11:30

LEAVE HIM!!! Sorry for shouting, but WHY for the love of all that is holy are you even talking about a TRIAL separation? He will never change. Those comments are deliberate, he's furious with you, how dare you challenge him and ask anything of him. He's not going to let you get away with that.
WHY are you going to joint counselling? It is a waste of time, all of this is. When I saw this thread I really thought you'd got him to leave, but it's the same old circles, round and round again. IT IS OVER. HE MUST LEAVE. It's really as simple as that. There is no saving this marriage but you can save yourself and the DCs from this half life you are all living. Tell him at the joint counselling you want him to leave.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Mon 13-Aug-12 20:19:35

^^ That's what I was trying/actually wanted to say.

LalaDipsey Mon 13-Aug-12 20:50:53

I know. It's what I want to say to myself sad

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Mon 13-Aug-12 20:52:11

What's holding you back Lala? hug

mathanxiety Mon 13-Aug-12 20:57:38

Everything he does and says is deliberate Lala. He is completely wrapped up in himself and can conceive of no other way of living. What you are seeing and hearing is him, pure and unadulterated and unfiltered. He is furious.

There is no better nature there that you will somehow succeed in unearthing and nurturing. Please focus on yourself and your own personal growth and drop the malignant self pride that is telling you there must be a way to find the best in him and bring it out. You do not have a role here Lala when it comes to your H. You have a responsibility to yourself and to your DCs first and last.

Tempting though it may be to believe you can save him and all of you from the worst that is in him, the advice about the drowning man comes into play here -- do not jump in to save him. He will drag you under.

If I say tomorrow that he negates helping out when he devalues me will he take it on board/be shocked he has acted in that way or go in a huff that 'he can't do anything right and if that's my attitude there's no point him trying' ok no point answering that is there
- Why are you contemplating making any such remark?
To start in on his behaviour would be completely counter-productive. It plays right into his hands and sets you off once more round and round in crazymaking circles.

I still want him gone, if only to clear my head. If he would only agree to a trial separation (physically) for 6 months that would be my ideal. Give me some space to see exactly what I want and if I miss him at all because don't think I would. I don't think I have love left for him.
- Two points about temporary separation here:
1. A temporary separation is like swimming with one foot on the bottom.
2. Whether your separation is temporary or not will depend on him just as much as it will on you. There is no guarantee if you separate temporarily that he would want to return in six months.

But he won't. If he moves out it's over as far as he's concerned
- At the bottom of all this, there is an abject fear of losing this man, Lala, and he knows it. That is why you understand that you either have to accept him warts and all or face a future without him. That is why joint counselling is going to be a waste of time unless you are strong enough to call his bluff and risk him saying 'OK that's that then. I'll be packed and gone by the end of next week. Have a nice life'.

Lala, until you are strong enough to face a future without him you will never have the chance of a happy life with him. As long as you are operating from the incredibly weak position of inability to face the future without him, or seeing in the breakdown of your marriage some sort of failure on your part that you cannot bear the shame of, then you are his prisoner - worse, you are your own prisoner.

At least I told the counsellor when I saw her 1:1 that I wanted it to be over so hoping she will help me tomorrow. I do hope I don't come back on here tomorrow night saying how right you all were about joint counselling
- What happens tomorrow at the counselling is entirely up to you Lala. You have to steel yourself and say what needs saying. Nobody can do this for you.

Are you ready to call his bluff? If not, cancel the joint session and have a few on your own where you will examine why you think abuse is preferable to being single.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Mon 13-Aug-12 22:54:42

Math is spot on Lala - it's all about letting go. Is it letting go of him in particular or letting go of having a partner that is worrying you? Perhaps talking to some other single mums might help,you see a way forward without a partner for a while. I doesn't think it really matters anymore why he behaves the way he does, whether it's conscious or not, what's important is how it's making you feel and understanding that this is not going to change. You are wasting energy trying to figure it out. You need to see your emotions as pound coins and at the moment you are depositing into his emotional bank account not your own. Every time you give him your attention, even in his absence, that is emotional money you are depositing to him!!!!! Re-focus on spending as little as possible on him and more on yourself. Make lists of small actions that are going to bring you closer the goal that you want, like planning how to rearrange the furniture once he has moved out. You once wrote lists of the good and bad points - have you still got that? If not do it again. Mentally rehearse in your mind how the joint meeting might go. Visualise yourself standing up and saying what you need to say, or calmly ending the session if he tries to hijack it.

Be strong tomorrow - if he is trying to take control of things pull it back to your corner. Ask him to repeat things, you taking control. Ask for a break if you are feeling overwhelmed. Use the Carpark if he tries to slip in unwanted topics - " i think thats an issue that should be carparked for later or another time, its taking us of course of the point of this session". Use silence - sometimes less is more - say your point and then nothing, don't try to gabble to fill silence. Say that you need to pause to think through what's been said so far and make him sit and wait while you think. Be ready to end the whole session if it is not staying on track. Have a notebook to jot things down that are being said - very intimidating.

Did you think about how many times you anticipate meeting for joint counselling? If this is to be the one and only time, where you want to establish that this is over and he needs to leave then I would also make this very clear at the start.

God luck tomorrow Lala. Xx

PlopButNOPudding Tue 14-Aug-12 03:14:52

"If he moves out it's over as far as he's concerned."

Lala - this is not a bad thing.  This what you want, right? For him to move out and for it to be over?? For him to understand it's over??? It's time to stop trying to 'fix' this.

You desperately, desperately need help in the form of INDIVIDUAL counselling to help you reset your self-worth and your expectations of a healthy relationship. He has defined these for you. To benefit no-one but himself.

Every time you engage in any way with this man you are subjected to subtle and not-so-subtle put downs and gaslighting. To be blunt,  by engaging with him you are damaging yourself psychologically.
 
Do you really want to pass your distorted view of healthy relationships, and rock-bottom expectations to your children? 

Will you be saying to your dds in 20 years time, if they ask for advice on their relationship  "but he's trying really hard- he wiped down the bumbo for you!" Or "maybe you just didn't explain it clearly enough to him- you need to look at the way you're communicating"

No? Thought not. 

You have the power to stop this lala. You need to listen to all the great advice here and end it and get him out. Not just for you but for the future that your dc's will have if you don't.

Whisky4Tea Tue 14-Aug-12 04:16:34

Lala, I think math and lagartija are right. I really recommend you read the following:

herbsandhags.blogspot.mx/2012/08/the-joy-of-single-motherhood-and-why.html

I think it might speak to you. This is a bit from it :

It never seems to occur to the people who write those articles, to urge men to stop being such unacceptable living companions that women can’t bear to tolerate living with them even for the sake of their incomes and the respectable status they confer on us; or to pay a proper amount of maintenance so that they don’t disadvantage their children (the majority of non-resident parents pay no maintenance and of those who do, the average sum is a woefully paltry amount). It also never occurs to them to campaign for workplaces to be adapted to the needs of all its workers, not just the ones without caring responsibilities, so that more lone parents can work in jobs which actually pay enough to meet living expenses; or to call on benefits to be higher to ensure that children of lone parents are not disadvantaged.  No, the only solution they can see, is for men and women to stay together and role-model an unhappy relationship to their children.

Because that was the propaganda I’d heard all my life, I tried to hold the relationship together, before realising that I was the only one bothering to try to do that.  Women are given the very clear message from when they are very young, that relationships are their business – that they are responsible for working on them.  Look at magazines aimed specifically at boys and men versus those aimed specifically at girls and women.  It’s immediately obvious who has been appointed the guardian of the Sacred Relayshunship, where the onus lies, on keeping it healthy, happy and alive.

For years, I didn’t notice that I was the only one working on making this relationship work, because that was the natural order of things.  Women’s time, our energy, our focus, is directed towards making relationships work, because to break up a relationship, even where there are no children involved, is sold to us as a really big deal.  We aren’t told that every day, we should ask ourselves why we are continuing to be in this relationship; we are told that every day, we should do something to maintain it without asking why.  Breaking it up is seen as a frivolous, immature, flaky sort of way of carrying on – the sign of someone with “ishoos”, someone who is afraid of commitment, has psychological problems, can’t maintain a relationship because they are somehow damaged or wrongly-wired.

I had fallen for all those lies, so of course I went into denial about the fact that I was horribly unhappy in the relationship I had.  That is the most common self-defence women have in unhappy relationships: pretend it’s not “as bad as all that”.  They compare the relationships that other women have with the men they live with, with their own relationship, instead of comparing their relationships to that of the men they actually live with.  So for ages – weeks, months, years – women don’t notice that they are the only ones doing the emotional work of the relationship – the attempts to make everyone happy, to balance everyone’s needs, to ensure that the family unit runs as smoothly as possible.  The effort of doing this, is immense; when you let it go, it’s like putting down an enormous burden that you hadn’t realised you were carrying.  The day my ex left, I put on loud music and danced around the kitchen while I cleaned it.

mummybussy Tue 14-Aug-12 09:17:45

Wow!! The above post is spot on. Hope it helps you clarify things in your head. Good luck tonight. Take the leap of faith and I promise you will land in a much happier place.

PlopButNOPudding Tue 14-Aug-12 21:14:11

Wow indeed.

There is a lot of inspiration there lala. Read and re-read. I thought these bits were particularly good.

how much easier it is to be a single parent, than to live with a man who doesn’t treat you as an equal human being with an equally important life and an equal requirement and entitlement, for leisure, rest, love and respect.

  I hope that my example, means they never settle for a relationship which makes them unhappy, which doesn’t fulfil them, which drains their joy in life.  I could never have done that for them, if I had lived with their father.

Every day my life is filled with joy and gratitude for the life I have: freedom to be me, freedom to have fun with my children (and without them), freedom to take lovers when I want to, freedom to arrange my social life the way I want to, freedom to live without a man exerting control over me or stunting my development as a human being.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Wed 15-Aug-12 01:09:40

Hey Lala, how are you today?

LalaDipsey Wed 15-Aug-12 14:41:13

Ok. Dc been keeping me v busy so no time for a long post will update hopefully later if they goto sleep which they didn't last night
Session was good. H was textbook repentant. Didn't gaslight. Took responsibility.
I just kept saying I didn't have anything left. Couldn't go through the cycle again. Have agreed to go for more joint sessions after my single session next week. Both have agreed need a timescale for resolve (on H's part more than mine) or a permanent split. Am confused but not by him. By me. He says he's changed now. Will never behave like that again. I don't trust that but can't help hearing it and wondering.

NoWayNoHow Wed 15-Aug-12 14:54:31

You poor thing, sounds like your DC didn't know you needed a good night's sleep!

Don't forget. He SAYS he's changed. He SAYS he'll never behave like that again. This is only a matter of days after his last gaslighting session, and it probably the ninth or tenth time he's SAID that.

What ACTION is he going to take to make it different this time? What's his plan for DOING it differently?

Don't trust it until he DEMONSTRATES a different attitude and approach. Until he DOES something different.

Actions speak louder than words

More true in your relationship than in anything else.

By the way, those aren't rhetorical questions - has he actually got a plan of action?

(a) When is he starting his own counselling sessions to address his inability to engage with his wife and family?
(b) Is he going to draw up a list of things that he will do around the house every single day off his own back, not written by you, without you asking?
(c) When is he going to his first alcoholics' support meeting?

lagartija Wed 15-Aug-12 16:09:25

all mouth and no trousers if you ask me. We've heard all this many many times before, have we not? Words are cheap Lala and you are too easily swayed. Tell him to leave and sort his life out and then you'll think about more joint counselling. Otherwise it's just delaying the inevitable. I'm sorry I know you don't want to hear that.

lagartija Wed 15-Aug-12 16:14:28

He's still drinking, isn't he?

RedMolly Wed 15-Aug-12 16:15:12

Blimey lala. This is why nearly everyone on here has said don't go to joint counselling. You are back to focussing on whether the relationship has a future rather than ending it. Like NoWay says, words not deeds, yet again. You seem hellbent on 'just one more chance, maybe this time, if i just cling to this piece of wreckage'. Please put the focus back where it needs to be. You were sounding so strong and determined, and now you are confused and your resolve has been undermined yet again. Remember that he may still want to be your husband but he does not want to be a father.

RedMolly Wed 15-Aug-12 16:19:50

Sorry - ds posted before i'd finished! If he is serious about changing he will do the work away from you. He will leave the house, give up drinking, go to separate counselling, and give you the space you need to think clearly, and give your dc a calm, safe environment. If he is not prepared to leave he will not do the rest. Sorry.

mathanxiety Wed 15-Aug-12 18:37:29

Yep...

When is he moving out to give you the space you need?

When is he starting AA?

He still has his alcoholic hat on.
That all or nothing stuff ('He says he's changed now. Will never behave like that again.') is pure alcoholic speak.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Wed 15-Aug-12 23:00:30

The problem here is that it is VERY difficult to believe that someone can change so radically in only a few days! He is saying to you that he can undo such ingrained behaviour and addiction and NEVER do or behave like that again - its just not going to happen. This new leaf he is proposing to make would require the biggest sea change of all time, a fundemental shift in his perception of:

What a relationship should be like
What a father should be like

If he could do this overnight then he, a. Knew all along how these roles should be but has never bothered to do it or b. undergone the equivalent of months of counselling to make the realisation and now be able to function appropriately or c. He is telling you want he thinks you want to hear in order to pull you back in.

I think you are treading very dangerous ground. Again it's all talk - its no skin off his nose to say these things. It hasn't cost him anything, for example agreeing to move out for a while to give you both space, actually going to get support for his drinking - doing it not talking about it. All that will happen is a few token gestures and a slide back to old ways when he will claim it's just a wobble and he will try harder next week and off you go agin.

Out of interest did you tell your cou seller that you post on here? I think you should at the very least have several sessions on your wn before going back to ny joint counselling.

NoWayNoHow Thu 16-Aug-12 08:46:19

Morning, lala

I hope you're okay this morning. I know it must be so difficult to read all our posts when that tiny bit of hope is creeping back in for you.

Please remember - we're not here to hurt you. We're just objective bystanders who can see the wood for the trees, IYKWIM, whereas you are so emotionally tied up in this man that we all appreciate how confusing and hard it must be to unravel what's true and not true.

Please also remember - EVERYONE on this thread wants nothing but a bright and happy future for you and your DC, and (contrary to what happens in most MN posts grin ) EVERYONE is in agreement about your H and his motivations for his current behaviour and empty promises.

We just don't want to you see you hurt any more by him than you already have been.

You're an incredible woman, so very strong, such a wonderful mother, and you deserve so much better than this half-life you're living.

(((hugs)))

Jux Thu 16-Aug-12 10:15:40

Best case scenario: he never behaves badly again, never drinks, always helps, takes responsibility for himself, his environment, is children. Let's say that he can actually do that, forever. What does that mean for his behaviour up until now.

HE WAS LIKE THAT DELIBERATELY. CONSCIOUSLY.
He deliberately drank himself into a stupor.
He deliberately fell into rages.
He deliberately called your baby a fuckwit.
He deliberately threw your daughter around.
He deliberately threw tings at your baby and cut her.
He deliberately left you to take care of his 3 children with no help.
He deliberately treated you and the babies with contempt and dislike.
He deliberately let you become so deprived of sleep that you didn't know which way was up.
He deliberately lay in bed until 11am, not allowing you to even have a shower, while you ran yourself ragged.

Deliberately, Lala. Consciously. Planned.

Do you really want to be married to man who can choose to behave like that, and carry it through, for months?

So even if he does become this paragon, you will always know that he could choose to do that again whenever he wants to.

mummybussy Thu 16-Aug-12 14:20:05

Well said...
Let's also put it this way. He has let you down at the point in your life when you've needed him the most, deliberately or not (more than likely was).
Can you ever forgive him for this? Can you ever imagine being intimate with him again? Can you imagine growing old with him? Holding his hand? Feeling safe with him?...I honestly don't think I could.
Why prolong things 'for the sake of trying' when the future won't ever be what you want it too?

PlopButNOPudding Thu 16-Aug-12 16:09:50

This is from someone who can't even wipe down a bumbo without using it as an excuse to belittle you.

Do you really think all you deserve is an h who needs to have counselling in order to make his dc breakfast or read them a book?

Do you really think this is the best dad your dc deserve?

The cycle you are trapped in is this:
He is ALWAYS going to make theses promises.
He will make a meagre effort to please you, to keep you hanging and stop you walking out. 
He WILL slip back into his old ways.
He blames you for this wobble, or convinces you that for some other reason it wasn't his fault and actually how hard done by he is. 
You believe him think maybe it wasn't that bad afterall, or are wracked with guilt that you 'hurt him' You apologise, submit.
Each time he does this he's conditioning you to accept more and more abuse as acceptable behaviour.

It's not acceptable- it's just that- it's abuse. 

You need to go to a counsellor ON YOUR OWN and tell them you are stuck in this cycle, it's chipped away your self-esteem and you need help to break out of it. 

All of us here are saying the same thing. 
We have either experienced this ourselves, or seen it happen to those we care about or we see it every day in a professional context. Tell the counsellor you have been given this advice and you need some help.

Ideally you need an extra RL support person- your mum of aunt or h's sister that you also tell about this cycle and your desire to break it.

Lala- also think about this another way. If this situation continues and the marriage continues- what if something happens to you? If you have an accident or are taken ill for a while or (god forbid) die?

Your h will be the PRIMARY CARER. 

That is a truly chilling, horrifying  thought.  

This is not just about you and your relationship lala. This is about a whole family.

LalaDipsey Thu 16-Aug-12 19:57:19

I know. And I know it seems like it's taking me forever but I am honestly moving forward all the time I think.
I have had lots of conversations with my mum about how I don't think I can ever forgive all that behaviour. And that I don't think I should forgive it either. I think all the spark and love has gone on my part. I know it therefore seems like I am prolonging the inevitable but I feel like I am getting gradually to learn my own mind again. It is hard to finally finally end it and we talked at counselling about how we needed a deadline to make a decision as couldn't go on like this for much longer and I am coming to terms with being the 'dumper'.
I don't want to be the 'dumper' but know it will be down to me.
I am sorting my head out, I promise. All your posts help.

RedMolly Thu 16-Aug-12 20:15:22

I really don't want to sound discouraging, but so much of what you've posted recently doesn't suggest a separated couple in any sense. You're still living together, still wearing your wedding ring (albeit on the other hand), you're still washing his smalls, doing the chores etc. I really do understand how hard it is with the job he's done on you, and i'm glad you feel you're moving forward. But honestly? I think you've taken a fair few steps back. Joint counselling was a bad idea - i understood that it made sense though to have a safe place away from the dc to say how you felt and end it, but that hasn't happened. I hate posting about my family but did on the last thread for this reason only - days into weeks into months into years. Please, please don't lose the momentum you've built up.

Jux Thu 16-Aug-12 20:16:51

You are going to have to be the dumper. That's not your fault, Lala, but if you don't, he certainly won't. As far as he's concerned, he's sitting pretty, so he has no reason to leave until he's pushed. He can even help out a bit from time to time to salve his conscience, while chucking in the odd bitchy comment to make you feel worse.

You know if you don't then you'll still be waiting next year, in five years, when your kids go to college......

NoWayNoHow Thu 16-Aug-12 20:17:36

All in your own time, lala - this is your life, and you need to live it to your timetable.

I think we're all just worried because every day more he spends in your house and in your company is another day of opportunities for him to undermine you and mess with your head.

It would just be so much easier for you to gather yourself together for the future if he wasn't always there, standing in front of you, trying to trip you up.

mathanxiety Thu 16-Aug-12 20:29:10

Lala, he says now he will change 100%, completely, absolutely -- and better still in front of an audience that he wants to conquer.

This is the same man who only a few days ago he said he needed a postit on his forehead and your 24/7 instructions in order to know what needed doing. And he still couldn't stop kicking you in the teeth as he 'helped'.

He is talking out his areshole.

Why do you need another deadline?

All you have to do is tell him it is now over. You keep on coming up to the brink and retreating. Deadlines aplenty have come and gone over the course of these threads.

Please call an end to this joint counselling charade and go to individual counselling yourself. YOU MUST find out and address what it is that is holding you back.

The only person who is stopping this process from moving on is you. YOU MUST find out why.

mathanxiety Thu 16-Aug-12 20:29:29

You mention your love here in your recent posts.

What role does your love for him play here, in your opinion?

mathanxiety Thu 16-Aug-12 20:31:22

'I am coming to terms with being the 'dumper'.
I don't want to be the 'dumper' but know it will be down to me.'

Excellent insight.

You need to talk and find out why this is. And you need to get over it.

lagartija Thu 16-Aug-12 20:57:18

excellent advice as always, math.

Lala I lost you for a while, and have been wondering how you are. Glad to find you again.

I thanked him for feeding DTs breakfast he said 'there you go - you smiled at me so I helped out' or words to that effect - basically implying it was my fault he hadn't done this before

This made me so very sad. "Doing your share" isn't helping out. I don't think "Oh I am such a good mother today!" and expect DH to praise me for putting DS's things away. I think "This is part of the job of being a parent." When he calls it something like 'helping out' - that implies that he thinks it's your job really but he'll do a bit here and there. It's NOT JUST YOUR JOB and he's a terrible, terrible father if he thinks that basic housework or basic childcare are 'helping out' or 'above and beyond' or deserving of a fucking medal.

Sorry. I don't usually swear. This just drives me to distraction!

I've read through but I am not sure I got everything - my 2 year old is a bit demanding tonight. Is he still drinking? Because you know, you can't trust a word he says or any promises he makes until he's in AA, and going every day or every couple of days...

SecrectFarleysNibbler Thu 16-Aug-12 23:50:50

Lala - I hear you - its hard to make this break. You ARE moving forward and I can appreciate the need to find your own identity again - its all part of the process you have to go through at your own pace. If, however, there is one thing that is being shouted from the roof tops here, it's the need to do some solo counselling. You NEED some time away from his influence to really explore the whole. Xxx

LalaDipsey Fri 17-Aug-12 18:49:20

Hi. He is drinking a little bit. For the past month a can (sometimes 2) of Carling a night no idea what he drinks when he works away though.
I guess love is relevant as if I thought I still loved him it could be motivation to try and work through this now he has seriously cut down on his drinking for now bets on when it increases again please!
I am very much looking forward to my solo counselling session on Monday. I really hope we can cram as much as possible into an hour. I guess I need to organise my thoughts as to priorities to discuss as it would be a waste to use it just to slag him off!!
I guess number 1 priority is why, when I am away from him I am adamant it is over and yet I fail to finish it when with him?

mathanxiety Fri 17-Aug-12 18:54:20

Lala, how can you working on this make a difference?

What do you think you could you be doing to improve this relationship/work through this?

When you say 'love' what do you mean?

LalaDipsey Fri 17-Aug-12 20:10:26

Ok. What I could be doing if I could be arsed I wanted to was trying to engage with H, be nice to him, chat about his day - give him something worth battling 'the demon drink' and his anger for. But I don't feel like it.
Love- oh - what I mean by love is the scripture from John - Love is patient, Love is kind etc. The Love I don't get from H.
I guess also the toe-curling excitement of being 'in love' and wanting to touch and be with someone. I don't feel any of that for him anymore. I am just trying to make sure those feelings have gone rather than just trapped behind the safe wall I have put up - not that it perhaps makes a difference except it should (in theory) be easier to end this damn thing if those feelings have gone completely.
Does this make sense or does it sound like I'm rambling?!

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake Fri 17-Aug-12 20:15:40

I don't think you are not ending it because you love him, I think there's some weird guilt thing going on and maybe some fear of being alone. That's what I think you need to get your head around, why you feel you owe this twat so much and why you feel so responsible for his happiness above your own and your own children's happiness.

RedMolly Fri 17-Aug-12 20:20:41

I think you are not ending it because:

1. Fear of the unknown - at least you know what you get with him
2. You feel you owe him (esp in regard to the ivf)
3. You think you can change him/save him
4. You think it is (in part at least) your fault

I don't think it is because you think you may still love him.

NoWayNoHow Fri 17-Aug-12 21:50:55

Agree with RedMolly and Lagarti - there are some far more deep-rooted reasons behind you staying.

Don't forget that before you came to the realisation of what a total shit your H is, you were engaging with him, trying hard to be nice, asking about his day.

It didn't make a blind bit of difference to his behaviour. All it did was stroke his ego.

Why on earth would you think it would make any difference now??

Every time you post, Lala, it is blatantly obvious that you don't love him and don' want to be with him.

What are you going to do to get away from him? How are you going to move forward? Do you not have a sense of your life slipping past you without you even noticing?

We're on this planet ONCE. How much more of your precious time and the precious, impressionable childhood's of your DC is this ungrateful man going to have?

PlopButNOPudding Sat 18-Aug-12 00:09:31

When a close friend of mine's marriage ended, she told me that on her first trip to the supermarket as a single woman she just stood there and started to cry because she had no idea what to buy. 
This was because she always bought what her ex wanted. She had no idea what food she liked anymore. 

I believe among many other emotions a similar thing is happening to you.
Over the years he has conditioned you to put his needs first.

You have become used to making choices primarily that serve him first and foremost and for caring very deeply what he thinks of you. Anything that displeases him makes you feel very guilty. This puts him in a very powerful position. 

You have moved forward, you now know this has to end. But when it's crunch time you care too much what he thinks, and you feel guilty/responsible. (I think- based on your posts) you are looking for thus to end with his 'approval' perhaps?

I have quote from somewhere: 

"Don't seek approval from others, you will only end up their prisoner"

Ending this by serving up divorce papers and kicking him out of the house is the right thing for you and the dc.

It doesn't matter what he thinks of you.

It doesn't matter if his feelings are hurt or he has nowhere to go. You are not responsible for him.

It's ok to put yourself and your dc first. In fact it's a necessity.

mathanxiety Sat 18-Aug-12 01:13:53

'...give him something worth battling 'the demon drink' and his anger for...'

You have given him three children. You yourself have said 'I do' to him. That has not been enough.

I think you are still hoping that you can save him from himself. Please do not keep going down this blind alley. Maybe it is a blow to your confidence to think that nothing you do will make a difference to the drinking or the anger, but the truth is that only he can overcome those problems of his and to do that he has to want to himself for his own sake first, and then for yours and for the sake of the children after that if at all. But primarily he has to want this and he has to do it for his own sake.

Nobody can overcome such enormous problems for the sake of someone else. He has to want to -- he has to see that it is in his own interest to do so. Right now he thinks he has nothing to lose. He has no motivation. You working on it will not give him motivation. That has never been reality.

I think there is also guilt here -- do you feel that you are abandoning him to his misery by separating. If so, this may be related to your feeling (that I suspect you have) that you could save him if you tried hard enough, if you loved him enough. The other side of guilt is a feeling that you have been inadequate as a loving wife and that has made his problems emerge - he has helped this along with his opinions about the fertility treatment.

If that is the case, it is a bit 'conceited', for want of a better word. It puts undue faith in your ability to make this man feel or think or do. He is an independent human being, not an outgrowth of your hopes and dreams, and what's more, he is a human being in the thrall of something more powerful than you (or him) -- alcohol.

Neither of you respects alcohol enough. Neither of you is afraid of it to the degree you should be. He thinks he is master of it and you think you can beat it. You are both wrong.

'Love is always patient and kind; love is never jealous; love is not boastful or conceited, it is never rude and never seeks its own advantage, it does not take offence or store up grievances.
Love does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but finds its joy in the truth.
It is always ready to make allowances, to trust, to hope and to endure whatever comes.'

Is this the one you were thinking of? (letter to the Corinthians)

'Love never comes to an end. But if there are prophecies, they will be done away with; if tongues, they will fall silent; and if knowledge, it will be done away with.
For we know only imperfectly, and we prophesy imperfectly; but once perfection comes, all imperfect things will be done away with.
When I was a child, I used to talk like a child, and see things as a child does, and think like a child; but now that I have become an adult, I have finished with all childish ways.
Now we see only reflections in a mirror, mere riddles, but then we shall be seeing face to face. Now I can know only imperfectly; but then I shall know just as fully as I am myself known.
As it is, these remain: faith, hope and love, the three of them; and the greatest of them is love.'

From that passage, in this context, I would take the message that you can still love, and you can have faith, and you can hope, and you can endure whatever comes -- but you can do all that while separated, especially the 'enduring whatever comes' part. I would in fact take the message that as the mother of those three children you are duty bound to hope and to endure whatever comes in order to keep them safe, to ensure that they grow up in an environment where they do not see and hear abuse.

Right now, loving the children requires enormous physical self sacrifice but not really that much by way of heartbreak, or the disappointment and tearing out of hair that can accompany the teenage years and the hurt that teenage callousness can inflict on a loving parent. You will have the chance to experience all of this down the road like everyone else though...
Does it fit more with your view of love as requiring self sacrifice, or your image of yourself as a saving grace, to make your H the focus of your love right now? (I am sorry if this is a blunt question.)
Are you able to tell him that you hope and have faith that he will find his own path through his anger and his drinking, and stop thinking that you can be his conductor?

Can you leave it in the hands of a higher power, just as AA asks members to do? Faith and hope require letting him go and acknowledging that control is out of your hands. Faith and hope exist hand in hand with love. Together they will outlast all else.

There can be no perfection. No perfect wife, no perfect husband, no perfect mother or father. Expecting perfection of ourselves or others is misguided. However, when there are small children depending on us we need to look at what we can do to improve our game. Even if they are not the squeakiest wheel or demanding in the same was as a H may be, they have enormous needs. Their needs and their demands on their parents are absolutely valid and must be met to the best of a parent's ability, whereas pandering to what may be wrongly identified as a dysfunctional adult's 'needs' often has more to do with fulfilling some sort of need in you than real respect for that other adult as a separate human being (without which there cannot be love). It is so tempting to look for the gratification that comes from oiling that squeaky wheel though.

I would examine 'love' as you see it. 'In love' is gone out the window; it doesn't last for anyone - it can come and go; the day to day love that makes a marriage is a verb, not a noun. It consists of mutual effort to put the other first, to choose being kind rather than right, not a feeling in your toes (or anywhere else).

I am getting the feeling that you equate love with self sacrifice, self erasure, a desire to bury yourself, maybe from a fear of being alone, fear of ending 'childish ways' and dependence on Another? I think you need to ask yourself what you are getting from the self sacrifice aspect of it.

I think it might be useful for you to imagine the advice given to passengers travelling with small children on a plane -- if the oxygen masks descend those responsible for young children are told to put their own mask on first and then proceed to help their children. You are no good to anyone if you sacrifice yourself to the extent where you leave yourself without oxygen.

<Caveat wrt this post -- I can know only imperfectly>

LalaDipsey Sat 18-Aug-12 21:14:37

Math that's an amazing post and I just wish I could reply as I read it (from a pc) because when I post back on my phone I can't read the prior posts.
I agree with most of what you say.
Feeling sick that H has gone out drinking tonight. Can't believe I'm typing that again. He had 2 bottles of beer at home & then said he 'might pop out for a pint'. That was at 7pm. He texted to say he was going to have a Chinese later (I don't like them), unless I wanted another takeaway. I texted back I would have a ready meal. He texted back 'ok cu tomorrow' - meaning he wouldn't be back til I'd gone to bed. Meaning he was going to drink.
It's good. It means any slight doubt can go away. It means that him cutting down to 1-2 cans lasted a month. It means I can utterly tackle with the counsellor on Monday how I kick myself into gear and kick him out. Work out how to move past my guilt, failure at marriage, depriving dc of a dad who can be amazing (but let's remember not very consistently!), guilt at persuading him to do ivf (you're right, math, I think that's my biggest guilt), failure to change/ 'solve' him, failure for me to 'be enough' so he would change for me,
So - let's hope the counsellor is on her 'A' game!!!!! In one hour can she turn me from mouse into lion??!!!

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake Sat 18-Aug-12 21:26:51

Go Lala! One bone to pick though. He is NEVER an amazing dad. He is frequently an amazingly crap dad, but no man who ever behaves the way he does can ever earn the title "amazing dad". Hope the counsellor helps get you some clarity to kick his sorry arse out. Once he's gone you'll be amazed to see how clearer things are. xx

NoWayNoHow Sat 18-Aug-12 21:59:57

I'm going to get a T-shirt printed with "Team Lala" written on it. What excellent objectives for your counselling. Write them down/print them and take them with you.

mathanxiety Sat 18-Aug-12 22:07:51

Having the house all to yourself would help you tremendously to go from mouse to lion.

You can behave and think your way into the role as you go along, one day at a time. You don't need all your ducks in a row before starting. You can grow into your new and better life.

RedMolly Sat 18-Aug-12 22:52:04

There is an old film - a cold war satire - called The Mouse That Roared. That could be you!

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sat 18-Aug-12 23:59:02

CYCLE, CYCLE, CYCLE!!! That's what you need to remember! He does a little jig - you re happy and forgiving, he makes a cock up but says sorry and does a little jig ..............

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Mon 20-Aug-12 08:50:25

Hi Lala, how are you doing today? brew

hillyhilly Mon 20-Aug-12 10:38:39

Good luck today lala, focus in what YOU need!

Hi Lala, I hope you're having a good day! Remember, you and your children deserve to be treated well. Your happiness is important.

LalaDipsey Mon 20-Aug-12 20:29:44

Hi All
Well it was a good session. I do really like the counsellor. We talked about where I am. I ended up describing it that I felt like it was over, that my feelings for H had gone and that I had 'stepped over the line', but that a very small part of me wondered if he could pull me back over if his behaviour change was sustained.
I don't think he can. I think this is it. I think I am also scared of the 'battle' after making him realise we are over, that is going to take a lot of energy and determination and I have to be ready.
Oh, and he drank Saturday night properly so his drinking isn't over either.
I know it's over. I just still feel a bit paralysed.
I am going to try and give him a bit of opportunity to hang himself prove he has changed by gently challenging him, and maybe if I feel brave enough have a friend over in the evening or a weekend or talk to someone on the phone in the evening or weekend when he is there and not working. See if he can change his reaction.
I do wish I could see her every week on my own. Next week she has to now see H on his own, for fairness, but hopefully he will work away on a Monday again soon so I can go on my own.

MrsTomHardy Mon 20-Aug-12 20:59:17

Why are you still going to give him chances to change?? Haven't you given him enough time already

Please just tell him its over for good!

mathanxiety Mon 20-Aug-12 21:19:53

What is stopping you seeing someone every week on your own?

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake Mon 20-Aug-12 21:23:21

why more chances? End it Lala. Enough already.

LalaDipsey Mon 20-Aug-12 21:37:00

It's not another chance, per se, it's about me just working this final bit out - If he changed would I want him?
I know some of you will be pissed off with me and feel like I'm ignoring you. I'm sorry.
Math - money & time!! The oldest reasons in the book. I don't have the money to go myself and it's hard enough getting childcare for all 3dc once a week - takes weeks of coordination - let alone twice a week! Now the DTs are napping better I can leave them sleeping at lunchtime so someone only needs to look after dd, but there's really only my mum and one friend that she can be left with.

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake Mon 20-Aug-12 21:41:16

BUT HE WON'T CHANGE!!!!!!

LalaDipsey Mon 20-Aug-12 22:21:32

I have also, today, spoken to the support/police/refuge local group. Counsellor suggested I speak to them to get my name & number 'registered' for a high risk response & to set up a safety plan with them. She said there is nothing more dangerous than a man with nothing left to lose and to make plan to leave and to end it whilst I was still finding it hard to actually do so.
And I have am appointment with another solicitor next week, just to see vs the one I saw a few months ago as he is local and pops up on every Internet search for a good family lawyer.

LalaDipsey Mon 20-Aug-12 22:22:15

I guess that was to say that I'm not all rubbish!!

MrsTomHardy Mon 20-Aug-12 22:28:38

Please just move on with your life with your babies....you are wasting so much time dragging this out.

Tell him it's over, end of!! Either he goes or you and dc's do but either way it's over!!!

RedMolly Mon 20-Aug-12 22:30:16

I don't think anyone will be pissed of with you - maybe a bit exasperated, but not pissed off! We are not living your life but most of us know the situation you are in from one angle or another, and are just desperate for you to find the strength to make the break.

Do i understand you right that you can't have a friend over or make a call while he is there? I do hope i have that wrong. Not sure i get why his reaction to your doing this would make any difference to all the other shit that he did/does. Do you mean that if he doesn't kick off that would mean he was going to change? What has he actually done differently since his big admission that he is going to change?

mathanxiety Mon 20-Aug-12 23:20:54

I think you have taken important steps there with the alert, and the person you spoke with was so right that you need to have a plan in place. When he drinks he gives himself permission to 'lose it' as you have seen before.

I hope the new solicitor will give you a good sense of what is possible here too.

mathanxiety Mon 20-Aug-12 23:21:56

I wondered too about that remark wrt phone calls/having a friend over.

LalaDipsey Tue 21-Aug-12 06:50:55

It's something which has been going round my head since my 'DV' interview at relate. I was asked if he ever stopped me seeing my friends, and he doesn't.
But he's always made it awkward or difficult for friends to come over when he's here. Or for me to make or receive phone calls when it's the evening or weekend. He just makes me feel uncomfortable, or makes an atmosphere so I don't tend to do it. Just another habit I've got into.

LalaDipsey Tue 21-Aug-12 06:57:02

What he has done differently is control his anger and his mutterings. And he has apologised when, on a couple of occasions, he has got a bit short tempered or muttered. He has now done breakfast with us the past 2 weekends and helped clean away. He is now calling home 80% of the time he is away. He asks about the dc - by name and specifics. And he has been drinking less, but I really don't expect that to last, especially since Sat night. And he has been doing a lot more with the dc.

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake Tue 21-Aug-12 08:26:01

But it's still not much more than a friendly uncle, really is it? Sorry for shouting, I know you're moving forward and you've come a long way, but there comes a point when you just need to cut the crap, take a leap and end it.
Also, he chooses to be "nice" less of a twat now. He CHOSE to be a wanker before, he'll will do it again.

MrsTomHardy Tue 21-Aug-12 08:35:53

Agree.....just get rid and move forward.
Be happy!

CatPower Tue 21-Aug-12 11:49:07

Oh Lala, you've come so far but you're still clinging onto the man you believed your husband was.

He was never that man. Never.

You and your children are living with a mentally abusive alcoholic, who makes it uncomfortable for you to speak/socialise with other people.

Making the final step and ending the relationship is the hardest part and you're right on the edge of doing it - please stop hovering, it's been months already and he's not changed. He won't, he doesn't feel he has to.

You've got to be brave and be the one to end it, because he sure as hell won't. He has everything he wants, he can even go out on the drink all night and he knows you won't bat an eyelid. sad

You CAN do this. You have to.

Jux Tue 21-Aug-12 18:37:32

Didn't you give yourself a time limit, at one point, Lala? I remember you saying it would definitely not be months. Maybe I've got that wrong, though.

Hey ho, you're clinging to the merry-go-round wondering whether it's going to make you sick before you jump off.

mathanxiety Tue 21-Aug-12 18:45:32

He is watching you to see how much of a massive about turn you are going to take in response to the small things he has managed to do (if he is still getting short tempered and muttering then he hasn't moved ahead much at all and what he has done he has done very reluctantly). He has been getting a huge reward up to now by behaving very badly and he will expect a reward for behaving differently no matter how small the changes he makes.

If you haven't yet told the counsellor about what you now recall wrt phone calls and friends you need to.

mathanxiety Tue 21-Aug-12 18:48:04

'He has everything he wants, he can even go out on the drink all night and he knows you won't bat an eyelid.'

Yes -- he is watching you, Lala, and taking note of your reactions. He 'gives' with one hand and he takes with the other, and all the time he is making a mental note as to how far he can push you, how much he can get away with vs. how little he needs to give in order to bamboozle you.

HansieMom Tue 21-Aug-12 22:35:41

When you started, your babies were ten weeks old. now they are seven months? His fuckwittery has occupied all of their babyhood so far.

PlopButNOPudding Wed 22-Aug-12 02:39:41

I was asked if he ever stopped me seeing my friends, and he doesn't. But he's always made it awkward or difficult for friends to come over when he's here. Or for me to make or receive phone calls when it's the evening or weekend. He just makes me feel uncomfortable, or makes an atmosphere so I don't tend to do it. Just another habit I've got into.

Lala, but he IS stopping you see your friends.

Can you not see that?? What you just described is very wrong and quite disturbing.

Making it difficult for you to do something is the same as stopping you. It's just a more cunning, nasty and covert way of getting you to do exactly as he pleases. Whilst making you feel you were actually the one who instigated it not him: just another habit I've got into

It is very important you stop protecting him in these counselling sessions and just tell things exactly the way they are.

I also don't understand why you're wasting precious time attempting mind games and tests with a man who has successfully screwed with your head for years. You are setting yourself up for more confusion and bamboozling.

Concentrate on getting yourself and your dcs away and into a safe and happy environment instead.

RedMolly Wed 22-Aug-12 08:49:06

The thing about friends/phonecalls really matters. It is another way of isolating you so that the lifestyle he has inflicted on you doesn't seem that abnormal. I remember way back you saying that you had been at a friends house and was suprised at how their dp played and interacted with their dc. This is what i mean - it shouldn't have been a suprise that men want to play with their children! If you stay with him the same will be true for your children - they won't be able to bring friends home without being afraid of upsetting daddy, or that daddy will say something horrible to their friends. He won't want people around who are not within his sphere of control.

Now you've said that about him 'getting you into the habit' of not seeing or contacting your family and friends, I understand a lot more about you. I understand a lot more about your inability to believe that, for example, my husband changed all my son's nappies (that he was around for) in the first year of his life, "because you're breastfeeding, love, you're doing so much work" and "because it's our special time together, isn't it, son?" - basically because it's a good thing to do. Not because he's superman, but because he's a nice man.

I understand how things like my H getting up in the night with DS's nightmares last night "I've got this one, pregnant lady, you get your rest" and then sleeping on the floor in his room for the rest of the night when he wouldn't settle - I get now how that seems impossible to you. But it's not impossible, it's entirely usual in this house because we make sacrifices and do things for each other - love isn't a one-sided struggle, Lala, it's a mutually-reinforced-activity.

Sorry if I'm rambling, I just kept remembering you saying on the last thread "surely no one else's H is any different" and "I know all families are like this" while the rest of us shouted "NO!" at our keyboards in horror.

Now I know he's controlling how much you see other people by his moods and his atmospheres and his "I-am-the-centre-of-the-world-and-you-all-dance-to-my-tune"ness, I understand how hard it must be for you to see a way past this, and I understand why you think you deserve a lying selfish negligent alcoholic for a husband.

But do you really think your lovely, lovely babies deserve a lying, selfish, negligent, abusive alcoholic for a father ? We all want the best for our children. Do you think they deserve a man like him yelling and throwing things and alternately frightening and ignoring them? Really? Or do you want something better for them?

Because that something better isn't him.

Jux Wed 22-Aug-12 16:09:01

Please start inviting people in for coffee, then for lunch. Now that you are separated, it shouldn't matter what he thinks, and it will start getting you into a more normal way of relating to more normal people, iyswim.

mathanxiety Wed 22-Aug-12 16:54:26

Lala, I recommend the book 'Stalking the Soul' by Marie France Hirigoyen. It is about emotional abuse, what it is and what it does to the victim.

It's not really a self help book. What it does is give the big picture of EA, something I think you do not yet see as you are so close to the elephant so to speak.

Les Carter's 'Enough About You, Let's Talk About Me' is another you might like to read, and perhaps 'Narcissistic Lovers' by Cynthia Zayn.

NoWayNoHow Thu 23-Aug-12 19:44:47

Hey lala

I hope you are okay today? Have you got anything nice planned for the weekend?

I just saw this on another thread and thought I recognised your "D"H in there quite a lot. Just something to think about...

DippyDoohdah Thu 23-Aug-12 22:21:22

Still here la la x

RedMolly Fri 24-Aug-12 17:10:05

If you haven't yet told the counsellor about what you now recall wrt phone calls and friends you need to.

Please do this. Also tell the counsellor that you can't celebrate your birthday on your actual birthday because the date upsets him (and why). She may be able to identify other areas where you are being controlled without even realising it. I don't think you can even begin to realise how much control he has over your life until you are not living with him any more.

Hope you are ok.

mathanxiety Fri 24-Aug-12 17:24:14

That sad birthday detail had slipped my mind, RedMolly..

hillyhilly Fri 24-Aug-12 17:26:13

You've gone v quiet lala hope youre ok and just busy and not that you don't want to come on here because you've been trying to play happy families.

DippyDoohdah Fri 24-Aug-12 20:10:42

Tbh even if that's the reason la la has gone quiet, it's her thread and we should respect that.it can take years to get out of abusive relationships

LalaDipsey Fri 24-Aug-12 21:56:20

Am ok. Not playing happy families. Just feeling like crap and very physically & emotionally tired. Hospital yday with dtd as a follow up to her fit. They are Concerned re her UTI. Got to have a bladder & kidney scan. Tested her urine again & still infected - consultant rang at 7pm tonight and asked if i could pop down to children's ward to pick up some antibiotics. Bless bless the man - I said if I needed to I would get the 3 dc into the car but was just putting them to bed - could it wait til morning and he went to the ward himself, picked up the prescription and dropped it round tonight grin amazing man. So am worried about dtd.
Also can't believe have spoken to a police/refuge place and my life means I have to do that.
Am just feeling a bit low and crap. Know next move is mine. Know it will be a battle and I'm not ready yet . Sorry

DippyDoohdah Fri 24-Aug-12 22:03:17

You don't have to apologise to any of .bless you to have so much on again x

HansieMom Fri 24-Aug-12 22:57:48

Sorry to hear your baby girl still has a UTI. They can make a person feel so sick all over. Hope you get a good nght's sleep tonight.

mathanxiety Sat 25-Aug-12 01:08:59

Lala, I am thinking of you and poor DTD tonight.

It is really hard to see your life 'reduced' to the level of talking to a refuge and to the police. I hope you can take heart all the same -- you are getting yourself into position to be in a better place one day. Hope you are also encouraged by the people there taking you seriously.

xxx

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake Sat 25-Aug-12 15:15:35

Sorry to hear about DTD, didn't know she'd had a fit? That must have been terrifying. So hard when you've not got the support of a loving DH either. Thinking of you Lala, you have so much on your plate. xxx

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sat 25-Aug-12 17:23:37

What a great guy to do that for you! Dare we compare this gesture to the usual support you get from you know who?

You never need to apologise Lala - its a tough, tough path that you are on and its a wonder you are still standing !!! Hope dtd is on the mend and you are getting support from someone.

Midwife99 Sat 25-Aug-12 19:40:23

Oh honey that post made me feel so sad for you. That arsehole should have been a real father & collected the antibiotics not an overworked NHS doctor! He has done more to care for your baby than her own father!! angry

Whisky4Tea Sat 25-Aug-12 21:37:29

Hiya Lala, I've just been catching up with your thread. I am sorry to her about your DT's infection. I hope the antibiotics help.

I just wanted to repeat what Blackcurrents said. You have been unlucky in your partner, not all men are like your H. Most will behave as her's , you know.

Also, I think you are struggling with the worry about how you are going to cope on your own. All I can say is that you are already coping quite well on your own. If you leave H in fact it will all become easier because you won't have to deal with him or look after him or make allowances for him. You shouldn't question your ability to be a single mother, because you already effectively one now and you manage.

I hope DTs sleep well.

LalaDipsey Sat 25-Aug-12 21:55:41

Thankyou all for your lovely messages. To be fair to H not sure why i should be! he wasn't back yet when I spoke to the Dr - he was away all last week with work and not home til 8pm Friday night.
Hopefully the antibiotics will kick the uti into touch. DTs both got colds now, though, and are snuffling away next to me!

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sat 25-Aug-12 22:20:59

Take care Lala and hope you are all on the mend soon xx

legoqueen Sat 25-Aug-12 23:26:51

Catching up after holiday...sorry to see that you are still having a rubbish time, amazing how random acts of kindness by a stranger give you some perspective to your situation...take care x

zxcv123 Sun 26-Aug-12 14:03:07

Hi Lala. Sorry to hear about your DTD being ill and of course it's too much to think about anything else when your focus is on ensuring she gets better.

I haven't logged in for a bit and I just want to say how much the tone of your recent posts has changed! You seem much more confident and assertive - that's really great to see. I'm sure that one day soon, when your DTD is better, you will have the confidence to get your solicitor to draft a letter and get the divorce/separation rolling.

Can I share with you something my younger DS said to me last week? We've been on a 3 week, 3 country jaunt round Europe by train. Everything went well until the very end when I managed to get us on the Paris metro in the wrong direction not once, but twice!! So I said "Silly Mummy", laughed at myself and walked around to buy tickets for the other direction. My son said that I must be a very positive person, because if that had been Daddy he would have been really cross, shouted and swore at us and made everything miserable for the rest of the day. It made me remember the times when we were all creeping around trying to placate XH because he'd gone ballistic about some stupid, tiny little thing.

I can't tell you how liberating it is not to have to live like that anymore. I know it's horrible to have to be "the dumper". I resisted being the dumper for a long time too. But you can do it, because you are strong and you will do what is (regrettably) the best for your children. x

Hi Lala,
How's your poorly little girl? I hope she's on the mend and you're getting enough rest.
x

mathanxiety Mon 27-Aug-12 15:55:33

Hoping the ABs have done their job over the weekend..

zxcv -- I have eerily similar memories.

LalaDipsey Mon 27-Aug-12 18:40:23

Hi all. Dtd seems good. Sits there smiling with a runny nose whereas dts clearly had 'man flu' and is very poorly with the same cold! V interesting to see the differences.
Wrt H - started a couple of long posts and deleted each time as I'm bored of typing same old same old. Suffice to say he went out drinking last night (6-11) and has been hungover, grumpy & useless all day. Guilt has him now offering to buy the big fridge I'm after so my scruples are going out of the window and I'm going to get one this week. See a solicitor Wednesday. Need to get my head round the fact there will never be a 'good time'
Zx - that is sooooo my H too - there really must be a training school somewhere!!!

Hey too right get the fridge off him wink

Glad you are going to a solicitor to check your options.

Baby steps......

LalaDipsey Wed 29-Aug-12 07:04:40

Hi. H seemed to have a productive counselling session on his own yesterday. He is doing some of the Lundy list incl accepting he has been abusive and working on ways to change his behaviour. He hasn't fully apologised and taken full responsibility though, and that is most important. He said he was going to work on himself and was trying to accept that, once he was sorted out, I may or may not want him.
Girls (hope it's ok to call you all that!), I do now understand why you say to get him out ASAP. Whilst here he is messing with my head - pissed as a fart Sunday night, grumpy and moody Monday, hubbie and father of the year Tuesday (I was out with dc and got a text saying 'hi, is there anything I can prep to make your return easier?' - I mean WTF????!).
But... Can they change?! I saw the same Q on the EA thread and the consensus seemed to be that they could - but for how long? One poster said her H had changed for 2 years and been amazing - then it started again. I know I will only know with hindsight but I can't bear the thought of in 2 years being back to square 1 again.
See????? This is how confused I am after just one day of him being what appeared genuine and wanting to change.
Bugger. Solicitor this afternoon. I just want all my ducks in a row for when I'm ready to press 'go'.
Think I need to get Lundy book back from my friend (for safekeeping when H swapped the bedrooms around whilst I was away) and start it again.
Uuggghhhhhh what if he does/can change??? Does that change how I feel? I don't know. When I talked timescales with the counsellor she said if I wanted to see if he had changed it would take time - more than a couple of months. And here I am, DTs 8 months old already.
He isn't being abusive/vile/swearing atm. It's not an unhealthy atmosphere. Am I trying to justify? Probably. Aaaagggghhhh <goes and bangs head against a brick wall>

Lala it is good that he is seeking to change, but he is still an alcoholic & until THAT is addressed too, it is all just lip service & designed to trick you into giving him another chance.

CatPower Wed 29-Aug-12 07:44:42

See????? This is how confused I am after just one day of him being what appeared genuine and wanting to change.

He's still messing with your head and confusing you. Your children will be able to sense that. I'm sorry Lala, but that's still an unhealthy atmosphere.

It seems to me that the patterns seems to be that he's concerned and caring on the day of his therapy. This continues for a couple of days. Then the weekend looms, and so does the prospect of alcohol. He undoes all his good/manipulative work by going out and getting hammered then being hungover and useless for the rest of the weekend. A day of being neutral/non-committal, and then it's back to therapy...

...you're the only one who can break this cycle, Lala. As has been mentioned in earlier posts, nothing has changed for him. You've threatened separation, but it's not really happened, not for him. Until you put your foot down and say it's time for him to leave, he won't stand on his own two feet and have to change.

Also, once he leaves, there's the possibility he could change 100% for the better. (I'm not saying it'll happen, I'm just saying it's a chance). You may want to try again, you may find that even after that, what he's done to you and your children is too hard to get over. My point is, he won't change until something major happens to force him into it. Going to counselling once a week and sending you a text or two just isn't enough.

Midwife99 Wed 29-Aug-12 08:15:30

Have you thought of it this way? You are enabling him by letting him stay & doing this cycle of behaviour? If you made him leave & he truly hit rock bottom he would HAVE to change one way or another. Then things would be clearer for both of you.

NoWayNoHow Wed 29-Aug-12 09:28:11

Midwife has it spot on. If you told him to get out while he changed, you would very quickly see how serious he is about becoming a decent father and husband.

Sadly, lala, I think the main reason you don't want to tell him to go is that because you absolutely know that if you do, he won't do anything at all to become the man you need to be and he'll be gone forever.

Surely this should be your absolutely biggest red flag about whether or not you should continue this relationship?

I don't mean this in a shouty way, but I just want it bold and big so you can remember it:

HE WILL NOT CHANGE UNTIL HE HAS NO CHOICE BUT TO DO SO, AND EVEN THEN, YOU MUST ACCEPT THE POSSIBILITY THAT HE WON'T

He is in your house, still around you and still around your DC, yet able to do what he wants, when he wants, how he wants just by throwing in a couple of half-decent days and some perfunctory comments every few days about maybe being different in the future.

This is the very definition of HAVING YOUR CAKE AND EATING IT

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake Wed 29-Aug-12 11:13:03

Spot on NoWay

Jux Wed 29-Aug-12 13:19:47

Lala, you are spot on. You will always be confused by his behaviour until you stop letting him. You do need to be really strong - you are a strong woman, so believe in yourself - and tell him to go until he's got himself sorted.

He will try to charm you at first. Please spend as much time away from him as you can, surround yourself with ordinary people and things, and try to remember how human responses are meant to be.

MrsTomHardy Wed 29-Aug-12 13:21:40

Agree with Noway.......chuck the git out once and for all

zxcv123 Wed 29-Aug-12 15:25:22

Lala remember when I said to make a note in your diary of "one month since H said he would stop drinking", "two months since H said he would stop drinking" etc, otherwise time would just fly by and you'd get sucked back into a relentless merry-go-round of him promising to change / making half-hearted attempts to change / falling off the wagon / promising to change etc?

Well, how old are your twins now? Eight months? It seems to me that you have spent most of that time worrying about your H; keeping out of the way of your H; trying to keep your DCs safe from your H; reading up about alcoholism and emotional abuse; seeing counsellors/solicitors; getting advice from here etc. Think about how much of your time and energy has been spent focusing on your H and his issues! When it could have been directed towards making your children's lives and your life happy instead.

You ask whether your H is capable of sustained change? None of us can possibly know in advance. I've seen people drink themselves to death; others who continue to drink despite having children put into care, forced adoptions, no job, no friends, no money etc. And one - just one - who has been tee-total for 20 years. Interestingly, he wasn't the one who reached "rock bottom", he just decided for himself that enough was enough.

Given that you cannot change anyone else, only they can do that for themselves, you do not need to live with your H whilst he makes this attempt at change. If he's serious, he'll do it whether you are with him or not. Indeed, as others have said, your leaving should be a really strong motivator for him to sort himself out.

mathanxiety Wed 29-Aug-12 17:51:07

Lala, on some levels you are not living in the here and now at all and on some levels you are living in the mini-micro version of the here and now. You are avoiding looking reality in the eye no matter what mode you are in.

You are living day to day with someone who is gradually doing your head in and you are able to acknowledge that.
At the same time you are able to say 'He isn't being abusive/vile/swearing atm. It's not an unhealthy atmosphere'.

It is the fact that you include the 'atm' that should tell you that you all you need to know in order to make your decision.

You need to ask yourself if you are able to live with the shoe constantly in danger of dropping, or the axe permanently poised over your head, whatever metaphor you like to use. This is not what a relationship is supposed to be like.

Why would you choose to pin your hopes for your and your babies' future happiness on something completely unpredictable and uncontrollable both on a day to day level and years down the road while ignoring the fact that you yourself could be in charge of your own destiny and your own happiness, and ensuring your DCs' happiness if you were alone.

You need to ask yourself why you are inclined to put your trust in your H's capacity to change and not take the step of changing yourself.

You need to ask yourself if you want to shirk your responsibility to yourself and to your children and put all that responsibility for your happiness and your children's in his hands instead. As long as you think there is a capacity for change on his part, as long as you wonder if there is the remotest possibility that this could happen, you are willing to sacrifice more and more of the DCs' lives in order to find out, and it seems to me you are too willing to take that shortcut and avoid the challenge of making the separation a physical reality.

As to capacity for change -- your H is not doing the Lundy book work, or working on himself. There are far more hurdles for him than accepting responsibility. He cannot simultaneously claim to be doing the work, making progress, and getting drunk, being too hungover to be a husband and father, and being all bright and smiley once the hangover is gone. That is the polar opposite of making progress. It is in fact exactly the same as the behaviour that went on pre-counselling only with the sugar coating of individual counselling to use as a carrot for you.

Stop looking at tiny micro elements of his behaviour out of context. You are grasping at straws. You are once again failing utterly to respect the alcohol.

You need to ask yourself why you keep on doing this.

Please get the books I linked to a few posts back and when you have the time go through them.

mathanxiety Wed 29-Aug-12 18:08:13

I do think you are 'getting there' though and I know it is hard.

xxxx

Jux Wed 29-Aug-12 19:22:55

Great post, math, as always. Lala, please think hard about what math is saying.

You are still going round and round on the not-so-merry-go-round. Your children are getting older. Your dd is learning from you, shaping her behaviour from the example she is set, by you and by your dh. She is learning all the time about how relationships work, learning it from you two. She sees the ups and downs of h's behaviour and how you respond. One day, she'll be doing it herself, either as the abusive alky or as the crushed and fearful and indecisive wife. This is how it works. You know it. You badly, urgently, need to break the pattern, to show your children - especially your dd - how life can be lived with gaiety and joy, confidence and delight.

I don't know if I am coming across as admonitory, bullying, angry or what. I am, in fact, dreadfully, dreadfully sad. My dd's best friend's family is an abusive one. The friend, at the age of 12 (12!!! shock ) now has a boyfriend who hits her, just like her dad hits her mum. 12! 12 years old and she's being hit. For her, it is "just what happens". I cannot do any more for her, though she knows that if she ever needs help she can come here. I have had to tell dd she can no longer see her as they go to the beach, meet up with the boy, hang out until he hits dd's friend, when they both come home in tears. I don't want dd to normalise this. I don't want her to see it. There is more, so much more, and it's been going on for years. According to the friend's mum, her daughter learnt by the time she was 4 to gauge daddy's mood and keep clear. sad

I am hiding this thread now. I'm sorry Lala. I'm sorry for you and for your babies.

I would be really grateful if someone would pm me about how things turn out for you Lala; your story will worry me for years otherwise.

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake Wed 29-Aug-12 21:00:33

Listen to them both Lala. You MUST tear yourself away from this man, you must stop enabling him. You must make him leave. If he is serious he will change on his own, he will NEVER change as things stand now, why would he, there is no incentive to. All is will do is drag you all down with him. I grew up in a house like that, it wasn't pretty. You don't need to "line up your ducks", just tell him it's over and to leave. If he has any respect for you he will go.

PlopButNOPudding Fri 31-Aug-12 12:37:56

Lala, you are NEVER EVER going to KNOW if or when h is going to change. Please understand this. 
This cycle of being 'father/husband of the year' for a day then 2-3 days of selfish, abusive, pissed waste of space with continue till the day he dies. Especially if you continue to live together and enable this bullshit.

So STOP asking yourself and him the question.

Stop now.

You've wondered, analysed and agonised over this for years and are still no closer to finding out.

YOU WILL NEVER KNOW IF HE WILL CHANGE

You have had very clear advice here that he's not going to change.

You have had the very clear message from him- even if you can't or won't see it -that he's not willing to change. He's had enough chances ffs, and he's ignored every single one. 

All the time you insist on wondering and asking this same question and delaying separation you are denying your children a happier childhood.

Thd title of your threads were 'dh hates being a father'

Don't your dc deserve more than this dreadful waiting around for him to change?? Like math said- your family's happiness is being passed over to your h to control. 

I know that no matter what my feeling were for a man, of his for me or what was going on between us, I could not stay with anyone if they showed the same dislike and contempt for parenting his own dc that your h does. 

It's time to stop putting your 'relationship' first and start putting your dc's needs first - which is creating a happy family environment for them. Your h will not do this, they are relying on you to do it and by stalling you are letting them down. 

Lemonylemon Fri 31-Aug-12 12:45:57

Lala: My DS's dad was just like your OH. By the time DS was 2.5 we were out. Yes, it was tough on my own, but my DS is now 15, and absolutely lovely. His spirit wasn't crushed by his Dad.

I couldn't stay to be abused by his Dad and let DS be abused either. We HAD to go. His Dad never changed, although he "talked the talk" he couldn't/wouldn't "walk the walk", so I did.

Best thing I ever did for both myself and DS.

Whisky4Tea Sun 02-Sep-12 04:16:57

Just catching up with your thread Lala. Please listen to the good advice you are being given here.

All I can say is that your H can change. But he won't do it while you are living together. He has no reason. He likes the things they way the are. If you really think he can change, the best thing you an do is tell him to go. To sort out his drinking and reflect on how he can be the husband and father you need. If he is capable of change and being to good man he might take up the opportunity. If he isn't, he won't, but at least he won't be living in your house, messing with your head, making your life unhappy.

You can do it Lala. You want to do it.

mummybussy Mon 03-Sep-12 19:17:40

Hope all is well with you Lala. x

LalaDipsey Mon 03-Sep-12 21:19:08

Hi all. I am ok. Solicitor was good last week I will be happy to use him.
Counselling good today.
H had a personality transplant last 6 days. Been caring, helpful etc.
I don't know what I am going to do. I don't know if I care for him anymore. I don't know.
I know you all have really strong opinions on this.
H isn't being verbally abusive or throwing things. He is being a better father and person right now. I am aware of the cycle of abuse and yes he could be honeymooning and it could all crash down. I am not opening my heart, mind or body to him. I am, for a little while, going to watch and wait.
Maybe he will keep it up. Maybe it's too late anyway but the dc will have a better father out of it. Maybe he will be one of the statistically extremely few men to change.
I don't know. I told him in counselling today that I don't know. He asked if I wanted to want to work things out. I said I don't know.
Counsellor asked if i could pick a future
- me on my own, happy with dc
- me with H and dc, happy OR
- me with dc and a new partner, happy
Which would I choose?
I said I didn't know. That's telling I suppose as if it was H I should know that but it wasn't my answer.
I'm having a session on my own next week.
Jux - I am very sorry for your dd friend. Very sorry. It's a heartbreaking tale.

mathanxiety Mon 03-Sep-12 21:26:10

What about the drinking?

LalaDipsey Mon 03-Sep-12 21:35:25

He is drinking still. 2 small bottles of lager a night. One of the things I said today was that I didn't know if I could accept this. I dont feel like I know a lot tbh!!

CatPower Mon 03-Sep-12 23:29:05

Lala, so good to see you posting again and I'm glad that H is behaving for now, if only because it gives you some respite. I can only say this; I think you'll have a much clearer head and will be able to make decisions when (not if) you have decent time alone. You need to breathe, to be able to relax, talk and work out how you feel without input or influence from H. He owes you that much at the very least.

Off topic:
Does anyone on this thread remember WorldOfUncertainty (wou)? She posted months and months ago in a very bad state, shed given birth prematurely, baby was unwell and she was in agony. Her H had been having an affair, was cruel enough to invite OW to the house to watch the baby whilst Wou rested etc... She couldn't quit him, to quote a film. No matter how badly he treated her (and believe me, it was agonising to read), she was almost accepting, resigned to it maybe. Ultimately she was very confused, she wanted her idea of a family and found it so difficult to accept that her H would never give her what she wanted. After weeks and weeks of posting, she vanished. sad Lala's confusion reminds me a lot of Wou's, and whilst I don't understand it (I'm not in their shoes) I almost wish they could talk to eachother.

PlopButNOPudding Tue 04-Sep-12 00:28:18

Many other posters have said this lala, but you really need to get him out and separate so that you can find the answers to the questions you are unsure of. 

If he really does WANT to change and is ABLE to change he will do this for you. 
You need to do this to regain some balance of power back in your relationship. At the moment he calls the shots and he likes it like this.

Look, when I met my dh he was a bit if an arsehole. Nothing compared to your h (if you don't mind me saying so) and we were in a very different situation- no dc, not married etc. But he was playing a few silly mind games and just not treating me all that well. He was trying to establish himself as the one with the power in the relationship.

So I told him i knew what hd was doing, i wasn't going to stand for it because i deserved better and I ended the relationship.

I moved out. It was easier for me I know- we didn't own a house together back then..

I cut him out of my life as much as I could. I meant it. I deleted his number from my phone, I deleted his email. I could remember them but just the act of doing this made it final.

He got annoyed, then upset. He begged me to go back. Promised he'd never treat me badly again. I said no, I needed space. I stood my ground. I really did want and need space to think and be on my own. I just wasn't sure this was the man for me.

He respected that, and for a few weeks he left me alone, even though he didn't want to. He respected what I needed.

Then he tracked me down and asked that I meet him- we ended up getting back together again.

We are not perfect and have other niggles like all couples.. BUT he did change in that he has never tried to play mind games and certainly doesn't see himself as the one in control. We are a partnership.

He respects me because I readdressed the balance of power and demanded an equal partnership. He has said to me on more than one occasion that he saw our relationship in a different light because I stood my ground and didn't allow him to 'have his own way'. He also said that he loves me and when you think you'll lose someone you love you do anything to prove it to them.

Lala, if your dh is capable if changing and truly loves and respects you he'll work this out the way you want. You may decide you don't want him back. You may decide you do if he proves to you he's changed.

If he is threatening you with "if you make me leave, I won't ever cone back' then I'm afraid this is a big red flag that he has no intention of 'changing'. 

He just wants things to revolve around him, for him to be in control, and for you to be submissive. As usual. 

I know your situation is different but just some food for thought.

Keep going, keep questioning. You are doing well.
To deal with this and 3 dc incl twins is nothing short of amazing.

Xxx

mathanxiety Tue 04-Sep-12 00:53:25

I remember WOU sad

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 04-Sep-12 01:33:25

Sigh.

sad

SecrectFarleysNibbler Tue 04-Sep-12 11:07:53

Lala - if you end up sticking with him and giving this a go because you really believe he can change then I think you should also have a VERY clear thought that if it does begin to slide back to unacceptable then that WILL be IT! The danger of all of this is that you end up on a continuous cycle of ups and downs that will never end - it is documented clearly by everyone supporting you here. It's a cycle that will be the death of you and your family. I think you are treading very thin ice but can understand why. You a re already going back on limits that you set - the main one being the drinking still continues REGALRDLESS of how much or often - you said this had to stop but now you are making justifications for it and ACCEPTING it. Do you see the danger in all this?? How in a short space of time you are backing down and he is not. The next will be a smallish incident of poor behaviour but you will reason it and justify it and here we go again....... The most frightening thing is how much you have said in recent posts that you are really questioning if you have any feelings left for him - so why cling on???? I think getting out to talk to other single mums would really benefit you to see that its totally doable and that you can exist away from him on your own. Wishing you well as always x

RedMolly Tue 04-Sep-12 11:43:30

PLEASE get him to leave, albeit on a temporary basis. It is the only way you will get through this confusion. SFN is right that the boundaries you set are slipping. If he has flipped a magic switch then great, but remember that his ability to do this means he was choosing his behaviour before. He needs to leave to give you clear headspace to think, to demonstrate to you that he can maintain his good behaviour, and, if he slips, your dc are not in the line of fire.

If he won't live elswhere for a little while and won't give up drinking, i don't think the signs are that good for any lasting renaissance. It is good that you recognise the cycle of abuse, but i can't understand why you would risk putting your dc through it until you can be sure you can trust him. Surely this is the bottom line - it almost doesn't matter what you do or don't feel for him, you have to know that you can trust him to be a decent father to your children, whether or not the two of you stay together.

If you separated how would you feel about him having access to the dc unsupervised?

Hope your dd's uti is better.

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake Tue 04-Sep-12 20:06:00

HE'S STILL DRINKING LALA. He's not changed one jot. It's all talk while he's still drinking, it reall really is. This will go on and on for the rest of your and your children's lives.....if you let it.
He has to leave. If he cleans up his act, stops drinking, goes to AA, has therapy and after all that you decide you still love him, well brilliant. But until he does all that then all you are doing is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and damaging your children EVERY SINGLE DAY.
Stand up for them, they are too little. Stand up and protect them. Tell him to leave now.

hillyhilly Tue 04-Sep-12 22:38:20

Lala, can you read back from when you first posted? I wonder if that might help to remind you of how this man behaves. I hope that the new him stays but as others have said, I suspect there'll be a gentle slide

MysteriousHamster Thu 06-Sep-12 09:33:17

Hope you are okay Lala.

I am beginning to hope he will be horrible for longer. Because every time he's nice, even for a day, you think 'well I can't do anything now just in case it lasts'. Experience doesn't seem to be teaching you that he isn't choosing to change.

He'll have to be awful for a long time for you to get out.

In a way I understand because it must be awful to tear your family apart and to be the one to make that decision.

I don't want you to feel criticised because this should be a place of support.

I just wish you could find the strength to get him to leave.

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake Fri 07-Sep-12 11:06:14

How are you doing Lala? Hope all is OK.

mathanxiety Fri 07-Sep-12 20:27:42

Any improvement with the UTI? Hope the ABs have worked.

LalaDipsey Fri 07-Sep-12 21:35:23

Hi. Thanks all, and thanks math for asking about dtd.
UTI should be clear now and she had a kidney and bladder scan in Wednesday which was clear so all is good (they were checking for damage caused by the UTI or abnormalities to cause it). I just have to insist on testing for a UTI if she is unwell at all again, as another one triggers further investigations, and be careful when she has a raised temp as she may fit again.
H is still being helpful and nice. And he is still drinking a couple of beers a night.
There's no point reading the thread to remind me - I keep remembering more and more incidents - it's like the fact that I've 'woken up' to his behaviour seems to have stirred all these memories. Not all are 'biggies' but a couple are. I just keep remembering and re-living.
And can't equate any of it with the H who has now been pretty 'normal' for 11 days.
A question for you - how will I know he has/hasn't changed if he doesn't live here? Most of his anger is triggered by dc and objects not behaving as they should. And his drinking. How can I tell if he's reverted to type if I can't see?
I promise you neither I nor dc are living in a remotely abusive environment right now.
I have many concerns and one is being back at the bottom in 2 years time and have wasted 2 years because he spirals.
Then I think, he can't last at 2 beers for long.
Then I think he was at the pub for 1.5hrs tonight - he must have had more than 2 - but how will I know?
Then I think and remember some other shitty think he did and wonder why I am giving him this opportunity to try and change my mind.

He is away every other Monday now so I will get a counselling session on my own every 2 weeks.

Thanks for your continued support - I am listening and I am hearing you. And I am agreeing with you. And I would advise myself to do the same thing.
It's just so hard to do.
I agree with the fact that if he was horrible now it would be so much easier.

mathanxiety Fri 07-Sep-12 22:41:59

That sounds like a good idea wrt the UTI -- it's hard to spot until you are experiencing big problems so best to test first. Whenever DS was really under the weather, off his food, and had a fever I used to take him for a strep test and then insist they not rely on the quick office test results which always showed a negative - it always came back positive from the lab.

Wrt the H..

You are at home with three DCs under age 3. He knows drinking keeps him from being an adequate father - maybe he even uses it as a way to escape - but still he is at the pub. He is drinking his two lagers a night even when not in the pub. He knows that drinking keeps one foot in the non-relationship camp.

The fact that he has not addressed his drinking in a way that involves a public commitment not to drink, or accountability to people he makes that commitment to (a rehab programme), and the fact that he continues to drink and doesn't seem to feel he owes it to you and the DCs to approach proper help about it point (imo) to a man who still wants to have it both ways. An indication he is willing to change would be his willingness to leave while he commits himself to sobriety. The willingness is what is necessary here. The willingness is what is absent.

Most of his anger is triggered by dc and objects not behaving as they should.
If you believe that he is set off by the DCs and by objects not behaving as they should (wondering what you mean here?) then by staying, and keeping on drinking while he stays, he is saying others need to change in order for him to behave better. This is a bit of a control game he has going on -- he is telling you that you need to make the DCs change and life at home needs to revolve around him; he is telling you that keeping him from going off the rails is the job of other people (you and even the little DCs) and not him.

If he was committed to change, above all else he would admit to an alcohol counsellor or to a 12 step group or therapist that he has a problem that he wants to overcome, and he would accept the accountability that goes with that sort of admission. Right now he is still guarding the alcoholism from outside interference, still addicted and not willing to give it up.

How can I tell if he's reverted to type if I can't see?
Along with the commitment to accountability and responsibility would go the commitment to the family's financial security. There would be serious efforts to pay more of the mortgage and he would get the insurance that you do not have right now. (Trying to remember back to the financial issues you described a while ago). You will know if he is still drinking or if he has changed when you see that he has decided how to prioritise the spending of the family income. You will know he has decided to take responsibility for the drinking when he tells you that he has made arrangements to get help.

Until that day, he has not 'reverted' to type; the person right now in front of your eyes is the person he has been all this time -- he has not changed in any significant way.

WRT 'anger triggered by the DCs' -- this is an enormous personality and ego problem and he needs to commit himself 100% to getting to the root of it with intense therapy, and commit to getting over himself.

It doesn't really matter exactly how many beers he drinks in a night. You and he both seem to be engaged in a process of finding out how much (little?) he has to do in order to make things liveable, where you get a modicum of non-drunkenness and he gets to keep up a certain level of alcohol poisoning (like topping up your minutes on a phone in a way).

how will I know he has/hasn't changed if he doesn't live here?
For yourself, having your own home to yourself would enable you to sample life as a free woman. You would notice the difference between life with an alcoholic and life free of that very quickly and very clearly.
You will find out if he is interested in changing or if he just wants to rearrange the deckchairs if you insist on him leaving. Right now you are both engaging in the deckchair rearranging. For both of you this is easier than doing what is necessary.

PlopButNOPudding Sat 08-Sep-12 06:12:41

*A question for you - how will I know he has/hasn't changed if he doesn't live here?* 

If he changes into the husband and father you want him to be then he will be working very hard to convince you to take  him back. Because he will be terrified of losing a wonderful wife and dc who he loves.

He will be mortified that his alcoholism has affected his family so negatively and he'll tell you this.  He'll also tell you that he's joined AA or some other addiction program and that he has stopped drinking completely and is working with professionals to keep it that way.

He'll tell you that his attitude and behaviour towards you and the dc has been selfish and appalling. He'll admit that he's controlling and disrespectful and has been a lousy husband and father and that neither you or the dc are to blame - only his own shortcomings. He will apologise and tell you exactly what his behaviour will be like from now on and how he will manage his anger, controlling tendencies etc in the future. 

He'll show you he's changed by allowing you space and when you are ready to talk about your relationship again he will speak to you kindly, affectionately and with respect. He will demonstrate that he has patience and is loving with the dc and will carry out equal parenting tasks as you without being asked, without complaining, without asking for gratitude or making you feel guilty.

I'm afraid that if you have no idea whether he has changed or not, then it means hasn't. 

PlopButNOPudding Sat 08-Sep-12 06:17:48

I was also confused by objects not behaving as they should
Do you mean he would get angry with a toaster that won't pop up the toast for example? And throw it across the room or have a tantrum and stamp feet and shout at it??
This is an anger management problem- and something quite irrational that needs treatment to be resolved.

mathanxiety Sat 08-Sep-12 06:17:51

Yes to all the above -- there will be no excuses (along the lines of 'the DCs set me off') and there will be a clear choice made by him -- he will choose family over drinking (he will make himself accountable to some other party and to you about the drinking -- no macho 'going it alone' BS).

He is not doing that now.

zxcv123 Sat 08-Sep-12 09:53:25

I think it is really telling that you say "most of his anger is triggered by DC and objects not behaving as they should". Think about it. Could we insert the word "other" into that sentence?

"Most of his anger is triggered by DC and other objects not behaving as they should"

We would all raise our eyebrows to think of your DCs as objects, but perhaps that's the issue? Perhaps he views your DCs (and indeed you) as objects that should behave in a particular way? I can assure you that if he gets cross with them now for not behaving in a way that he deems appropriate, that will only get worse as they get bigger / noisier / have more possessions strewn round the house / have their own opinions / answer back etc.

Another question. Why was he at the pub last night when he knows that his drinking is a major problem for you, when he has promised you he will give up / won't let you down etc, when you are both in counselling for your marital difficulties. If there were ever a time when he should be spending time with you and the DCs rather than in the pub, this is it.

Lala

Let me put this another way. Most, if not all, alcoholics- and yes I'm sorry your DH is one- will NEVER address their issues until they hit rock bottom and then the only way is up. Some then have a wake up call and get help and turn their lives around. Some carry on with the self destruction .

By letting him carry on with the charade of a happy family life you are in fact ENABLING him to carry on his self delusion that it is all OK.

I know it is the hardest thing in the world to do but by leaving him and making him face his demons you may well save his life as well as getting you and the DC's into a healthier more positive environment.

PLEASE start the process, live up to your thread title....start Moving Forth!

LurkingAndLearningLovesOrange Sat 08-Sep-12 12:29:47

Lala if you want your husband to address his alcoholism (and it seems you do)

Enabling him the way you are now? He'll never get off the bottle. Ever.

If you truly want him to stop drinking, you need to kick him out and allow him to hit rock bottom. Only then, and I mean only then is there a chance he'll address his drinking issues.

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake Sat 08-Sep-12 21:28:36

Read this on another thread (DH in DD's cot) and it made me think a lot about you and your H:

^The Merry-Go-Round of DENIAL

Alcoholism is a tragic three act play in which there is at least two characters, the drinker and his family; friends; co-workers and even healthcare workers may have a part in keeping the Merry-Go-Round turning.

ACT ONE

The play opens with the alcoholic stating that no one can tell him/her what to do. This makes it very difficult for the family to talk about drinking and its results. Even when the drinking is obviously causing serious problems, he/she simply will not discuss it. Talking is like a one-way street.

The key word in alcoholism is Denial, for again and again people do what they say they will not or deny what they have done.

As the alcoholic drinks more and more, the helpers deny the problem and increase the alcoholic’s dependency.

In act one, the alcoholic kills all his/her pain and woes by getting drunk.

ACT TWO

In act two, the alcoholic does nothing but wait for and expect others to do for them. Distinct characters begin to evolve from his/her helpers. A person can play more than one character and usually does.

The Enabler
The Enabler is a helpful type, trying to rescue his friend from their predicament. The Enabler wants to save the alcoholic from the immediate crisis and relieve them of the unbearable tension created by the situation.
In reality, this person is meeting a need of their own, rather than that of the alcoholic, although the Enabler does not realize this themselves.

The Enabler denies the alcoholic the process of learning by correcting and taking responsibility for his/her own mistakes.

The Enabler may eventually insist they will never again rescue the alcoholic. They always have and the alcoholic believes they always will.

The Victim

This may be the boss, the employer, the foreman or supervisor. The Victim is the person who is responsible for getting the work done, if the alcoholic is absent due to drinking or is half on and half off the job due to a hangover.

The alcoholic becomes completely dependent on this repeated protection and cover-up by the Victim; otherwise he/his could not continue drinking in this fashion. If the Victim stops helping, the alcoholic will be compelled to give up drinking or give up the job.

It is the Victim who enables the alcoholic to continue his irresponsible drinking without losing his/her job.

The Provoker

This is usually the wife or mother and is a key person in the play.

She is a veteran at this role and has played it much longer than others. She is the Provoker. She is hurt and upset by repeated drinking episodes; but she holds the family together despite all the trouble caused by drinking.
In turn, she feeds back in the relationship her bitterness, resentment, fear and hurt, and so becomes the source of provocation.

She controls, she tries to force the changes she wants; she sacrifices, adjusts, never gives up, never gives in, but never forgets.

The attitude of the alcoholic is that his/her failure should be acceptable, but she must never fail the alcoholic! He/she acts with complete independence and insists he/she will do as they please.
This character might also be called the Adjuster. She is constantly adjusting to the crises and trouble caused by drinking.

Act two is now played out in full. Everything is done for the alcoholic and not by them. The results, effects and problems caused by drinking, have been removed by others. The painful results of the drinking were suffered by persons other than the drinker. This permits him/her to continue drinking as a way to solve his/her problems.

ACT THREE

Act three begins much like act one. The need to deny dependence is now greater for the alcoholic and must be expressed almost at once, and even more emphatically. The alcoholic denies he/she has a drinking problem, denies he/she is an alcoholic, denies that alcohol is causing him/her trouble. The alcoholic refuses to acknowledge that anyone helped them – more denial. He/she denies that they may lose their job and insists that he/she is the best or most skilled person at his/her job. Above all, the alcoholic denies he/she has caused his/her family any trouble. In fact, the alcoholic blames the family, especially the spouse/parent, for all the fuss, nagging and problems.

Some alcoholics achieve the same denial by a stony silence, refusing to discuss anything related to their drinking. The memory is too painful.

The real problem is that the alcoholic is well aware of the truth which he/she so strongly denies. He/she is aware of the drunkenness and the failure. His/her guilt and remorse have become unbearable and the alcoholic cannot tolerate criticism or advice from others.

Above all, the memory of his/her utter helplessness and failure is more than embarrassing; it is far too painful for a person who thinks and acts as if he/she were a little god in their own world.

The wheel goes round and round.

The curtain never closes after act three, but instead the acts run over and over again. As years go by the actors get older, but there is little change in the words or the action of the play.

It is not true that an alcoholic cannot be helped until he wants help. It is true that there is almost no chance that the alcoholic will stop drinking as along as other people remove all the painful consequences for him/her. The other actors find it difficult to change. It is much easier and far less painful for them to say that the alcoholic cannot be helped, than to go through the agony of learning to play a new role.

Self-creating crisis

If drinking continues long enough, the alcoholic creates a crisis, gets into trouble, and ends up in a mess. This can happen in many ways, but the pattern is always the same: he/she is a dependent who behaves as if he/she were independent, and drinking makes it easy to convince himself/herself this is true. Yet the results of his drinking make him ever more dependent upon others.

When his/her self-created crisis strikes, he waits for something to happen, ignores it, walks away from it, or cries for someone to get him/her out of it. Alcohol, which at first gave him/her a sense of success and independence, has now stripped him/her of their mask and reveals a helpless, dependent child.

The crisis is a way of reassuring the alcoholic that they have control over the other players in the play.

The Little God

No one has a right to play God and demand that the alcoholic stop drinking. The reverse is also true. The alcoholic can only continue to act like a little god, telling everyone what to do, while doing as he/she pleases, if a supporting cast continues to play their roles. Every player has every right and responsibility to refuse to act as if the alcoholic in their lives were God whose every wish and commandment be obeyed.

Ending the play

There is no easy way to stop the merry-go-round, for it can be more painful to stop it than to keep it going. It is impossible to spell out definite rules which apply to all members of the play. Each case is different, but the framework of the play remains the same.

The 3cs re alcoholism
You did not cause this
You cannot control this
You cannot cure this^

LurkingAndLearningLovesOrange Sun 09-Sep-12 05:45:23

I actually just came to link that thread!

Lala if you want to read the whole thread (and I think you should, here is the link:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1559216-just-found-DH-in-DDs-cot

Lagar has summarised the most powerful points but I still feel you should read. She sounds just like you.

LalaDipsey Sun 09-Sep-12 11:21:23

She does sound just like me. I have almost posted to her but there's no point from where I am.
The sad thing is I want to post that I understand - but leave him now before something worse happens
I never never never never thought I would stay with a man who shook our baby son and said 'shut the fuck up you little fuckwit' and then, when I told him to put him down and walk away, came at me with an upraised fist and said 'it's all your fault for being a nagging fucking bitch'
But I am still here. Because 'he's not being like that at the moment' and 'he's being nice and helpful'.
And he wonders why I can't just 'move on' because 'he's changed and would never behave like that again' sad

So why ARE you still there Lala?

What is it in you that still harbours a hope he can change??

<not being accusing just trying to understand>

Even IF he has changed.

Even IF he doesn't touch another drop of alcohol EVER again.

Even IF he is the model husband for weeks.

I could NEVER rest knowing he'd been so vile to his child and to me, he has a long way to go to earn your trust again, but staying with him while he trys to do so is madness.

Leave him, tell him to get help and allow contact with the DC;s only at a contact centre where he can be supervised and encouraged to play with the children in a supportive environment and learn how to be a better Dad.

You owe it to yourself and your lovely DC's.

LalaDipsey Sun 09-Sep-12 15:07:35

I don't know, Bossy, when that incident happened the DTs were 2.5 months old, I was on about 2-3 hours broken sleep a night and my parents were on holiday. I had never thought of splitting and had made no enquiries - I didn't know how or where we would live without him.
I honestly 100% know that if that happened now it would be over - I have seen 2 solicitors & know my rights and have spoken to the CAB. I know how we would live.
There is another alcohol thread running where the H sounds just like mine. They do it because they can don't they?
I'm not ending it now because he really does seem to have changed and I'm waiting to see if that changes things for me but I doubt I can move past that night.
I was hoping counselling would unlock whatever it is in me stopping ending it. Part of me hoped the alcohol counsellor and Relate would call SS and force my hand. A big part of me wanted him to hit me that night so I would end it.
As math has pointed out so many times I am looking for 'permission' or 'help' to end it. I don't know why.
Everything I read says an alcoholic can't do a couple of beers. He thinks he can. I don't. He is trying to prove he can be 'all I want him to be' and has his anger under control now, is helping with the dc. Means he could have done that all along.
Maybe in a masochistic martyr way I like the way things are. Maybe I'm fucked in the head.

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake Sun 09-Sep-12 15:47:28

You're not fucked in the head. You've come so so far. You understand now it has to end, you just need to do it. You've lived like this a long long time (most of your adult life?) it's a hard hard thing to do. But you must.
You can do it Lala. You can.

LalaDipsey Sun 09-Sep-12 16:00:12

For 19 years. Been with him for 19 years. Great and wonderfully at first but I wonder how much because I was 19 and happy to get pissed all the time?

LalaDipsey Sun 09-Sep-12 17:12:51

I've identified the feeling I've been having. It hit me when H just left for the pub hmm (fed dc dinner so I think he thinks it's his 'reward') and he said 'I shouldn't be back much later than 7-7.30'.
The feeling I got was 'don't rock the boat. He's being nice at the moment. Don't set him off. Don't ruin the status quo'

He can down a fair few pints in that time. Plus what does 'not much later than..' actually mean?
It does mean bedtime down to me on my own again.

MushroomSoup Sun 09-Sep-12 18:22:42

It's all just so not how decent men with a young family behave, Lala.

MrsTomHardy Sun 09-Sep-12 18:32:10

Just end it, now!
He will never be what you want him to be, ever!!!

NoWayNoHow Sun 09-Sep-12 20:18:29

I can't tell you know wonderful it is to see you develop this self-awareness lala - you're become strong enough to see the situation for what it actually is, not what your H has made it to be over these many many years.

You see what he's doing, and you can understand his motivations.

You have also recognised tonight that you're paralysed by the fear of him turning again into what he's been.

He WILL (intentionally or unintentionally) use this fear to continue his trips to the pub and continue his drinking. He lives with you, so he will be able to tell that you're grateful for the even keel in your house at the moment. He will exploit this.

I know that you know that this is no way to live.

You have found SO MUCH strength in the last few months. You just need to really dig deep and tap into those reserves and pull out something you never knew you had to finish this last step. Your life will be happier, healthier, and quite frankly far less emotionally exhausting without him in your house.

We're all rooting for you.

mathanxiety Sun 09-Sep-12 20:56:59

'The feeling I got was 'don't rock the boat. He's being nice at the moment. Don't set him off. Don't ruin the status quo''

That feeling means you are living with a sense of dread, and fear.
You are putting your needs second (third? fourth?) -- in fact, he has got you to the place where you know your needs boil down to not setting him off, and nothing more.
When you live in the state of constant vigilance that that necessity requires, it means he is in control of this relationship and you are being controlled.

Yes, he does it because he can. This is no reflection on you. It speaks volumes about him. However, the only way to ensure he can't is to separate yourselves physically.

You are not 'fucked in the head' except insofar as he has you like a deer in the headlights right now. He has you in that paralysed condition because that is what a constant diet of belittlement, blame, and emotional and psychological abuse (with a sprinkling of the physical, and in any case that threat is always there) will do to you. If someone fed you doughnuts three times a day and you had no exercise and nothing else to eat you would be sick and obese. Emotionally and psychologically, you need help -- you have been fed a very nutritionally empty emotional diet for a long time. Here is an article on Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder that you might find interesting.

I feel sure that if you were to get the help you need to get him out, get your own feet planted on the ground and live with the babies on your own (maybe with assistance from a night nurse, etc) you would do fine. But you have to ask for that specific help -- to support you in telling him to leave and to support you afterwards both physically and emotionally -- or others will not know what to do for you.

Telling him he has to leave could be done in an intervention style setting with your parents and maybe his sister there to stare him down. Being there for you afterwards could be a role for your parents, or they could advocate for you with services like a night nurse, home help, or help you through the legal aspect of it all.

Aussiebean Mon 10-Sep-12 09:14:53

Just because he is now helping with the DCs does not mean you can't still end it.

You can end it because you have moved on. You have grown in differenrt directions. Or you have fallen out of love. There are many reasons to end a marriage.

Don't not end it, just because he is finally acting a little likea father. He can act a little like a father from his own house.

AbigailAdams Mon 10-Sep-12 09:27:49

Seriously Lala, the fact that he considers it OK to go to the pub at the time when you have to put 3 young children to bed, is so far from OK, it is off the scale. And that is not even including the implications of the drinking.

And the whole don't rock the boat thing is desperately sad.

Please start putting yourself and your children first. Everything you are doing at the moment is still putting him and his abusive wants first.

I agree with math get his family onside to do an intervention style approach. He HAS to leave for you to have any clarity for the future.

It may not mean it's all over, it may give him the shock he needs to start seeking help & MAYBE just maybe you will be able to rebuild your lives either co-parenting the babes seperately or slowly rebuilding your marriage.

NOTHING is going to be put right by continuing as you are Lala it will spiral downwards until something awful happens. It is an unhealthy environment for you and the children, they have no choice in how their life is at the moment but YOU have, so please make a healthy choice for them as well as you.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Mon 10-Sep-12 17:31:02

Going to the pub after all that has gone is a slap in the face - all he has done is change his venue for drinking. Now you have no idea of how much he is drinking while he is there - in fact he could escalate to binge drinking if he only goes for a short while. So what if he has started to 'do a bit'? ( emphasis on the bit ), he has still not taken your requests, needs and wants seriously by stopping the drinking has he? He has thrown you a bone to pull you back on to HIS track. Lala - you know what really needs to happen but your addiction ( to him ans this realtionship) is as strong as his and until you are willing to accept it for what it is I don't believe you will ever leave this situation. I predict that the next thing to happen will be you giving up counselling because you think it's all good again so what's the point?

LalaDipsey Mon 10-Sep-12 22:25:05

No no no Secret it's not all good again. I haven't said that and I'm not stopping counselling . Can't post long reply as dc finally asleep, house tidied and need to sleeeeep but I know things aren't ok. Going to the pub not ok.
I found counselling hard today. Said to him that he clearly wasn't going to change/stop doing whatever he wanted which left it to me to decide what I wanted to live like. Thy I wasn't angry, cross or disappointed he went to the pub cos no big surprise and it was slippage - 3.5hrs is a long time at the pub. And over the most stressful part of the day for me. He tried to make it my fault that he went but I can see through that now.

PlopButNOPudding Tue 11-Sep-12 03:35:16

I'm not ending it now because he really does seem to have changed and I'm waiting to see if that changes things for me

He hasn't changed. All that's happening is that you are being further controlled and manipulated. 

Every act if 'good' behaviour is nothing more than dangling a carrot - this NOT for your or the dc's benefit. It is NOT evidence of a new leaf or he wouldn't be effing off to the pub when he's supposed to have stopped drinking and then making  you feel responsible for his actions.

In fact these acts are token and insincere gestures, so that he has 'currency' to throw back in your face if you assert yourself or 'accuse' him of anything. 
E.g:
'how can you say I don't take part in family life? How much more do you want from me? I read dd a story didn't I? You are very ungrateful- after all I'm working all day and you don't. It's your job to look after the dc- isn't it? I am actually going out of my way here' etc etc etc

I am looking for 'permission' or 'help' to end it. I don't know why

I think there is an element of you just not wanting to end it. You are looking for excuses not to. This is not a weakness, but a side effect of the abuse and how it's damaged your self esteem and confidence.
Try not to question why you are finding it hard. It IS hard, that feeling is not going to go away, its normal to feel this way. But you have to set your mind to leaving and do it- ignoring the little insecure voices asking you what if... 

To quote something I saw on another thread - you are on a bear hunt. Can't go under it. Can't go over it. Got to go through it. 

He is trying to prove he can be 'all I want him to be' and has his anger under control now, is helping with the dc

He's not. His efforts seem pathetic at best. 

He's conditioned you down. To accept less and less as an acceptable way of living. 

The thing is lala, this is what abuse is. You are bullied into actually believing that a substandard life is acceptable and that you don't deserve more. 

But in accepting this substandard life you not only choose it not only for yourself but your dc.

Your h's behaviour is only going to get worse. Babies are quite easy to keep out of the way. Sure they cry, but they don't move, or talk or make a lot of mess. 

In 3,4,5 years time they will be causing your h considerably more 'inconvenience' and he will become more abusive, angry and probably physically violent towards them.

Even if your h is 'nice' their childhood is going to be dysfunctional despite your best efforts and good mothering. unfortunately you can't protect them enough.

- they are not going to be 'allowed' to have friends round, or sleepovers 

- not only will they miss out on the wonderful experience of having a fun, supportive, engaged dad. They will live in fear and uncertainty and 'not rocking the boat'

- you can't share a bedroom with teenage twins with Dad in another room because he dictates where everyone sleeps... what is going to happen as they get older?

-  Imagine them explaining to their school friends that mummy and daddy sleep in separate rooms and their confusion that other families aren't like this?  Way, way worse than saying that mummy is single. (which is nothing to be ashamed of, and also unlikely because you'll be with someone wonderful who loves you and your dc because that's what you all deserve)

- they will realise from spending time with their friends' families that they have a very dysfunctional arrangement and they will resent you for not leaving him and providing a better life for them

- they will learn unhealthy and damaging behaviour from your h and copy it: anger, manipulation, selfishness, violence, alcoholism....

Lala, you know what to do. You know how to do it.
Please leave him.

mathanxiety Tue 11-Sep-12 03:44:17

Seeing through his blaming is a very good step in the right direction.

Lagartijadoesthecrazyshake Tue 11-Sep-12 14:44:02

you're doing so well lala. Keep moving forward.
xx

mathanxiety Wed 12-Sep-12 22:15:25

How is Dtd's uti coming along?

mathanxiety Wed 12-Sep-12 22:15:48

And are you managing to get any sleep?

LalaDipsey Thu 13-Sep-12 10:50:21

Hi. Dtd seems fine now thank goodness. Monday night i had 8 hours sleep hurrah!!! Last two nights not so good, but onwards and upwards!!!
All a bit strange here. H last night just started properly sobbing. Saying he knew it was all his fault. Couldn't believe it had come to this. He was sorry, so sorry. Knows he has made himself expendable. Wishes he could make it right. Etc etc.
I gave him a hug. Said it was ok to feel crap. But I didn't really say anything else. Didn't say I wanted it to be ok too. Didn't reassure him. Didn't sob with him. Feel horribly guilty. Feel like I can't rip his world away. Seems so unfair he would have to live in a small flat without a garden (& he loves gardening) whilst I keep a house.
But I really don't think I love him anymore. And then, regardless of everything else, there isn't much point is there?

LalaDipsey Thu 13-Sep-12 10:51:51

Math, thanks for the link. The selective memory bit really resonated with me as I couldn't work out how, until things started happening with DTs, I had forgotten how awful he had been when dd was born. How could I have sort of blocked a lot of it out? And this made some sense. Thanks

Oh LaLa, I have not seen your threads since I decided to "hide" them, and you moved to the secret place. Saw your thread in active convo, and I am sad to see that you are still putting yourself and your children through life with him. You are still questioning, and hoping, and convincing yourself that he can change. Just because he now and then decides to act like he is almost a normal person. Now and then. This is how he keeps you. This is how he manipulates you. The sad thing is that you know it. I feel so sorry for your children, they have not choosing this life, even if you are. Aside from now having relate to steady yourself on, and a nanny, you have not really come that much further, I wonder if all that help is enabling you to stay on?

LurkingAndLearningLovesOrange Thu 13-Sep-12 11:11:39

regret to say I agree with Quintessential. sadsadsad

CatPower Thu 13-Sep-12 13:10:17

The sobbing? More emotional abuse and manipulation, designed to make you feel guilty for wanting to separate and question yourself again.

Lala, this is painful to watch/read about. He's got you hook, line and sinker and you don't even seem to want to do anything about it. sad

CatPower Thu 13-Sep-12 13:15:18

Hang on, let's change things up a bit.

You admit you don't love him anymore. Doesn't he deserve to be with someone who does love him?

Don't you deserve to be with someone who loves you properly, who puts you and the kids first, who treats you as an equal and with respect?

----

Your children are young enough to not be too distressed by the separation. They'll grow up having a happy home with a happy mummy, and a happy daddy in his own home too. It'll be completely normal family life for them, just as it is for many other kids. Don't they deserve to have happy parents?

mathanxiety Thu 13-Sep-12 19:46:30

The thing about the sobbing, etc., is -- is he still drinking? And what is he going to do to retrieve the situation, if not for you then for his own sake? If he thought alcohol was a serious element of all the problems then he would be doing something about drinking.
That was a scene where he invited you to rescue him instead of pondering in a sensible and mature and responsible way how he could dig himself and the relationship out of the hole he has you all in.

Basically he doesn't think he has an alcohol problem.

You did very well to do what you did and say what you said. It was quite nicely neutral and you probably came across as someone who is in control and not about to run to the rescue.

(The impulse to rescue is not your friend here -- it is an ego booster but it is the emotional equivalent of a sugary doughnut, 'moment on the lips/lifetime on the hips', something to be regretted at leisure).

hillyhilly Sat 15-Sep-12 20:47:29

Lala, are you still clear on what you want and where you are going? Do you have in mind where you and your children will be by Christmas? Time drifts along sweeping us up in the day to day unless we take control of our lives.
Hope you're having a good weekend and getting some rest.

LalaDipsey Sat 15-Sep-12 21:00:40

Hi. I am getting clearer again. H has just been an arse again tonight. Went out 4.45-7 to the pub. I then took 45 minutes to myself after dc in bed and had a bath. Came down and H had put a pie in the oven.
He then got stressed we were out of corn on the cob and mashed potato. Muttering and throwing things around. Making me feel sick and twisty in my stomach again.
He served me half a pie, upside down on a plate with a dollop of mash. When I pressed 'play' on episode 2 of Dallas (oh my goodness how fab is it???!!!) and Christopher and Rebecca were having sex he stormed out, taking his meal upstairs.

I am saddened. I can't believe I have to end my marriage. I know i keep coming up to the fence and balking but im getting closer.Top top priority at solo counselling Tuesday is to talk about how I keep refusing to jump.
Math you have given loads of useful links / book recommendations - which would you advise most to read right now? Stalking the Soul? Thanks smile

LalaDipsey Sat 15-Sep-12 21:07:01

He's just come downstairs and said 'just so you know, I'm not angry. But I'm going to my room now'
Wtf????

CatPower Sat 15-Sep-12 21:40:05

He's miffed because you didn't react to his tantrum, that's why he came down to tell you where he'd be, incase you fancied witnessing some more sobbing and emotional blackmail. Stick with Dallas, Lala, don't give him the satisfaction. wink

You're doing brilliantly tonight, stay focused, it will get easier in time. x

LalaDipsey Sat 15-Sep-12 21:45:20

Thanks Cat I hadn't thought of it like that. And how dare he tantrum!!!! I cook 3 bloody meals a day for the 3 dc the least he could do on a Saturday is cook dinner for me without blowing a gasket!!!

mathanxiety Sat 15-Sep-12 21:49:35

I know that Stalking the Soul hit a lot of buttons for me and I found it very useful.

Best way to deal with a tantrum and the sulks is to ignore. You can mutter 'sorry you feel that way' to his back...

LalaDipsey Sat 15-Sep-12 22:06:54

Ordered. Thanks. smile

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sun 16-Sep-12 07:47:31

Lordy god Lala! How old is he?!?! Coming back down to tell you he isn't angry is the tactic of a toddler who didn't get the attention they were seeking with the first tantrum!!!!

If this is the state he gets in over preparing a meal what reaction are you going to get when more tough situations happen in your family life??

You are offering him EVERY opportunity to mend this and his response is to lurk off to his room like a moody teenager rather than spend some time with you trying to rebuild. What a golden opportunity he had this evening to do something thoughtful for you like help get the kids to bed and make a nice meal, spend time with you all - but he chose the pub and a sulk instead. He is really not making the effort is he.........

DippyDoohdah Sun 16-Sep-12 08:11:29

Hi LAla. Agree with the above, he is not addressing the issues or making an effort. i know what I would like to have done with the topsy turvey pie!!

ooh a flounce TWAT

You are standing up to him & he doesn't like it, keep up the good work grin

LalaDipsey Sun 16-Sep-12 13:10:30

He hasn't done a lot to counteract the fact he was sobbing that 'he had made himself expendable' earlier in the week and this weekend has then consistently buggered off at crucial meal and bed times. He got up at 8.30 today. Now, I know that's not a lie in by anyone's standards except mine at the moment but I had been up since 6, fed DTs, showered, got breakfast ready for all 3 dc, fed them breakfast (messy!!) and cleaned it all away and got the 3 dc dressed all before he got up (not to mention dealing with dd regular tantrums about nothing in particular and the fact that Dts is a velcro baby so anything which means I put him down means he just cries and cries and cries!!!!!!)
I am doing this on my own anyway so just need to make that official.

LalaDipsey Sun 16-Sep-12 13:11:08

X post - love that - a flounce twat!!!! grin

Midwife99 Sun 16-Sep-12 15:47:55

This is it now honey - he needs to go .....

grin YES Lala

I am doing this on my own anyway so just need to make that official

Keep hold of that thought!!

NoWayNoHow Sun 16-Sep-12 16:15:41

Lala, you've hit the nail on the head.

You ARE doing this by yourself. Imagine how much easier or will be when you're not cross and frustrated by his presence combined with unwillingness to do anything. It will be just like life ought to feel.

CatPower Sun 16-Sep-12 18:21:37

Lala!!! You've got it, finally!

I am doing this on my own anyway so just need to make that official

That's exactly it - you're essentially a single mum in all but name. You'd find it so much easier if he wasn't around distracting you, taking up your time and thoughts with his tantrums and drinking and turning your stomach to jelly/knots.

You can do this, Lala. You're getting stronger every single day.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sun 16-Sep-12 19:57:10

Go Lala! He LAY in bed WHILE you did all that this morning! This after ALL that has happened recently?!?! He either:

A. Doesn't give a toss when it really comes to it
B. is soo weak that he just can't 'man up'
C. COMPLETLY ruled by his preference to slave him self to drink
D. has had a complete moral / empathy by pass
E. believes to his core that childcare is woman's work
F. Thinks he is a god that should not sully himself
G. A tw** of the highest order
H. A sadist animal who gets off on watching you struggle

Please feel free to choose as many options above as you please ......

Lala - please, please free yourself from this shitty existence - you deserve a life that is happy. I think you can't all away from this knowing you did everything you could and have given him every opportunity to get on board. No matter what mind tricks he try's to pull from here on you have the moral high ground and will also be sainted for your absolute commitment to try and help him. my god - you have gone above and beyond - time to be selfish for you and the little ones in a good way. Waste not another moment on him....... Please!

mathanxiety Sun 16-Sep-12 20:11:07

Or maybe he is still punishing you for whatever it was that you did last evening? Who does he think he is?

All of Secret's options still apply..

You are so right that you are doing this on your own. And what's more, you are doing it with a massive weight around your neck, a heckler, someone always there trying to trip you up, an energy sucking vampire -- choose whichever seems most apt an image.

zxcv123 Sun 16-Sep-12 23:02:46

Keep going Lala you are almost there.

Take a quick peek at this thread from people who have recently left their husbands -

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/lone_parents/1557473-Being-a-single-parent-is-not-so-bad

SecrectFarleysNibbler Mon 17-Sep-12 07:28:02

Typo - can walk away

mathanxiety Thu 20-Sep-12 04:15:59

How is sleep going, Lala? I hope you're managing a decent few hours.

NoWayNoHow Thu 20-Sep-12 16:44:48

Wondering about you, lala and how you're getting on? How're the DC?

SecrectFarleysNibbler Fri 21-Sep-12 00:37:43

Been a few days since we heard from you? Hope all is good??
I am on count down to return to work on the 1st Oct. sad buying lottery tickets and looking out for rich men at the pub ! Lol!

Keep strong Lala - know its tough - remember that everything said here comes from well meaning advice, heartfelt concern and genuine wish to see you in a good place. Xx

mummybussy Sat 22-Sep-12 20:14:07

Hope all is well Lala. It's been almost a week without an update. Hope you and DC' are ok. Thinking of you all.

RedMolly Sun 23-Sep-12 17:13:30

Hope you're ok. There's a lot of folk here thinking of you.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Tue 25-Sep-12 17:16:25

How are you Lala - worried about you???

hillyhilly Tue 25-Sep-12 18:34:02

I hope you're ok lala? Don't feel you can't keep posting on here even if you are still together.
Hoping everything s ok

LalaDipsey Tue 25-Sep-12 20:04:59

Hi all. Thanks for caring and worrying. All is ok. I am trying to take some time away from the boards to really work my head out.
Solo counselling last week was really useful - we talked about why H hadn't done the 'tasks' from counselling (read a book, set aside some time to talk and arrange to go out for a couple of hours together) and him maybe not being motivated enough.
We worked out that at the moment we seem to be stuck. Things are just so uncomfortable at home and cool between us and they're not moving in either direction as I continually fail to end it and/or fail to try and make things ok. Instead I seem to just sit here, stuck.
So, H and I are to try and take a little time together. See if it proves to me that the 'love has gone' or, if there is something there. H is adamant he wants to make things work. I ranted at him at joint counselling this Monday and finally got a bit cross and that made me feel better.
We have said Christmas is the deadline to stay or split. H says things like 'I know we can get through this honey' and I don't reply sad
I said that at the moment all that had happened was that the abuse had stopped and the excessive drinking. But that I was still parenting on my own and he was still doing what he wants.
So, that's where we are. All is ok. I am still where I was I think but we do need to get 'unstuck' in whichever direction it ends up.
Yes I still want to beat my own head against a brick wall. I am still a coward (when we said Xmas I hoped the decision would be taken out of my hands then and felt a rush of anticipation that things could end then).

hillyhilly Wed 26-Sep-12 18:50:54

Thanks for the update, good luck, you know where we are if you need us

LalaDipsey Sun 30-Sep-12 22:09:21

Hi Secret. Good luck for tomorrow! X

SecrectFarleysNibbler Wed 03-Oct-12 22:47:40

Thank you Lala - two days in and knackered!!

mummybussy Mon 08-Oct-12 08:44:18

Hi, hope you're doing ok Lala.

LalaDipsey Mon 08-Oct-12 13:55:07

thanks, mummybussy, hi.
well the confusion continues I'm afraid. The counsellor spoke about H's childhood to me and his lack of any role model for a marriage apart from an alcoholic abusive one and said that he hadn't been born like this, that he had been born innocent just like dts, but his neural pathways had been shaped by his upbringing to be the way he has been.
she made me feel really sorry for him and for the first time in a very long time i felt some warmth towards him.
i don't know the answer anymore. he hasn't been abusive for ages, he is helping with dc much more, he is still drinking every day but drinking less (a couple of cans, out for an hour or so to the pub). i don't know where we are going, if it's to separate or not. i don't know how i feel about him but am trying to work that out - can 15 pretty good years ever make up for the last 3.5?? and even within that 15yrs there were very wide apart episodes of verbal abuse and hitting walls etc and always excessive drinking.
the counsellor says she believes people can change if they are willing to put the effort and work in.
he is away now until next monday (apart from thursday night) so am hoping to see if i care or not!
i wish i could fast forward a year, collect some hindsight, and make the right decision.

secret - how's work? still knackered?

HesAwayAgain Mon 08-Oct-12 14:52:35

I'd be worried that the dts neural pathways would be shaped in just the same way as your h's, by his alcoholic abusive behaviour. Is that not how you see it?

LalaDipsey Mon 08-Oct-12 20:29:14

It would be exactly how I see it, and he would be gone if he was still being abusive. He isn't swearing, throwing things or yelling or anything like that. If he raises his voice (maybe once a week) he apologises. He is being pretty normal. Dc are not living in an abusive environment. And even though he is still drinking it's not that much.

Gennz Mon 08-Oct-12 22:49:29

Lala I have followed this thread from your first one and I haven’t felt qualified to comment but I find it really, really depressing. This: “isn't swearing, throwing things or yelling or anything like that. If he raises his voice (maybe once a week) he apologises” sounds very boiled frog-esque.

A husband/father raising his voice “about once a week” isn’t normal (and I can be stroppy/argumentative/a harpy myself). Are you raising your voice once a week? I bet you’re not.

From what I’ve read of your relationship prior to you having kids, you didn’t have 15 good years. He sounds like he was always a self centred arse, and you were always a bit on eggshells around him, but having the DCs has magnified issues that you glossed over before.

You can’t (well you can, but you shouldn’t) base your relationship on feeling sorry for your partner. I note he doesn’t ever appear to feel particularly sorry for you, bringing up 3 kids including twin babies practically solo, on no sleep, with no help from him.

Sorry if I’m being harsh but I don’t think your counseller is being particularly helpful – you are already struggling with feelings of guilt enough (and this seems to be the reason you haven’t booted him out) without her encouraging you.

Glowbuggy Tue 09-Oct-12 08:57:59

I've just read your entire thread, you sound lovely Lala.

Your husband is a turd.

I agree with Gennz Lala- your counsellor sounds rubbish she is just enabling this farce to continue, Yes people can change but they have to WANT to change & he isn't.

You have set deadlines before Lala & he has failed them. It's like telling a child "don't do that or else..." and then letting them get away with it agian & again.

Alcoholics don't moderate their drinking, he will just be hiding it better or getting more down his neck in a shorter space of time.

Shouting even just once a week is NOT acceptable. Your babies are growing up in such a negative atmosphere, and you all deserve more.

Please don't tell me he drives you and/or the DC's anywhere?

PlopButNOPudding Tue 09-Oct-12 09:19:32

Lala I just wanted to wish you well with everything and I truly hope you can find the clarity you're seeking and the happiness you and your dc deserve.
I don't really feel I can contribute anything to your situation anymore but I will always wonder how this will resolve.

Tbh your last couple of posts have made me frustrated, sad and angry as to how on earth the counselling session - which should been to HELP YOU became all about him. 

You need to stop talking about why your h is the way he is, and talk about why you are the way you are.

Lala, I know I am some random stranger on the Internet but please believe that I honestly only have your best interests at heart when I say this:

You are a boiling frog.

The issues with your h will never be resolved (one way or another) until you take back control of your self worth, and have a better understanding of the reality of your relationship and what 'normality' actually is.
You and your dc deserve so much more than this. I hope you can see that soon.

zxcv123 Wed 10-Oct-12 09:07:53

Oh dear Lala, you are still living in Lala Land.

Your counsellor explained to you that your H's neural pathways were altered by his upbringing to be the way he is and because you are a kind, warm person that made you feel some warmth & sympathy towards him.

Another response to that explanation would be to think - Oh, if the problem is to do with the way that my H's brain is wired up, how realistic is it to expect him ever to change?? If his brain is wired up wrong, then that means Lala that none of this is your fault or has been triggered by you. It's just that he's brain damaged (sorry, that's a strong term but you know what I mean) - damaged in the sense of not being able to deal with relationships, addiction, anger etc.

Your counsellor says people can change. No doubt some can, but as others have pointed out, he'd have to REALLY want to. When you first came on here you explained your H was drinking excessively at home every night. Now you say he goes out to the pub every night for an hour or so, but you say this is better. You can't possibly know how much he drinks in the pub as you're not there, so this looks to me like an attempt by him to conceal how much he's consuming. I also think leaving you alone every night to look after your three little ones is not on, but you seem to accept this.

The months are slipping away. Soon it will be years. Believe me when I say if you continue to live like this, your DCs won't thank you. Think of all the people who have told your their stories of growing up in alcoholic/abusive/violent homes - not one of them has told you to stay.

RedMolly Wed 10-Oct-12 11:12:31

You needed a counsellor to tell you he is the way he is because of his upbringing? Of course you knew this already - the problem is that he has allowed himself to take out his frustrations on his family instead of being a grown up and taking responsibility for his own life.

We all reach a point when we have had abusive childhoods where we can either continue to blame our parents for how screwed up we are or take actions to change the future for ourselves and our children so that the pattern does not repeat. Taking responsibility would have been getting professional help to stop drinking and individual counselling and so he can work through his issues. I'd probably add anger management to the list. He has still failed to do this and yet again you are happy with crumbs.

I feel quite sick saying this but you are allowing the pattern to repeat - and since he is allowing history to repeat it is you who has to stop it. You are putting your relationship before the best interests of your children. You may not think your children are in any physical danger (at the moment) but they are still at risk of growing up with anxiety, low self esteem and god knows what else because of the environmnent they are living in. It breaks my heart that you can't see it.

Remember that abuse is cyclical - what happens next time you go to an event where he has the opportunity to get hammered, or can't quite keep his temper under control? It has taken the imminent loss of his marriage for him to make the small changes he has made. I fear it will take something truly awful for you to make a change.

You are not only risking your children's wellbeing but you are risking your future relationship with them. I am sorry if you think i am projecting - i probably am to an extent, but it is hard not to when the situations are so, so similar. I promise you it only gets worse as your children grow and find their own voices. I hope you find the courage to make a change before you get to learn that for yourself.

MysteriousHamster Sat 20-Oct-12 23:02:15

How are you LaLa?

FiercePanda Wed 24-Oct-12 19:53:32

Bump, checking in Lala, name-changed regular poster from all your threads, hoping you're okay.

LalaDipsey Fri 26-Oct-12 22:22:29

Hi. Well the last 3 weeks have been clarifying.
H was away with work for 7 days and it was nice. I didn't miss him.
He came back poorly and had one week off sick and has just ended one weeks holiday. Him being around just hasn't worked. We tried to plan to spend some time together but have just had horrid days.
The past week he started drinking 1+ bottles of wine a night again and on Wednesday he was horrid . F word 12x in front of dc. Pushing toys angrily out of the way. Getting cross about mess but not helping.
He spent all of yday in bed and is now on a healthkick again - stopped smoking and drinking yday and got on the cross trainer again. Just goes to show I control nothing.
tomorrow he may drink, he may not. He may smoke, he may not. He may get cross. He may not. It's out of my hands and I can't control it.
Next week I and dc are going to my parents for a few days, ignoring the fact that it's our wedding anniversary.
I have to end this. It's a horrid-unpredictable atmosphere. Why oh why is it so chuffing hard to do though???
At least I have tried absolutely bloody everything.

zxcv123 Fri 26-Oct-12 22:51:37

Hi Lala. Yes, you have tried everything.

So when you are at your parents next week, just make it your mission to plan the best way out. Perhaps you could get them to come back to your house with you to explain to him that it's over and he needs to go? Or write him a letter. Or just speak to your solicitor and get her to start divorce proceedings.

This bit is always going to be the hardest bit. But once the ball is rolling, it won't seem so bad. Indeed you said yourself that it was nicer when he was away on business (I know that feeling so well!!)

I agree it is "chuffing hard" (great expression!) to end a marriage. I always have to give a hollow laugh when people say that divorce is too easy these days. But as you say you "have to end it" so I'm hoping you find the strength to keep going and just do it.

LalaDipsey Sat 27-Oct-12 08:57:23

They know, don't they?
H woken up this morning. Happy. Gave me a big hug and said 'do you have to goto your parents next week? I don't want you to'
They know don't they? It is because he feels I've come to the end isn't it? I just feel mind-f*kd again!
Yes, the plan next week is to get my head together, work out finances and work out how in the earth I am going to finally end this farce properly. No talks of separation now, needs to be talks of 'it's over' aagghh. Feel sick. He's just taking dd to ballet class now. Being a 'Disney Dad'. People will look at him and think how fab he is.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sat 27-Oct-12 12:15:59

Hi Lala - back to work has been taking up all my time. Just checked in today to see how you are.

I think that phrase Disney Dad is so appropriate - it shows that you are seeing his better moments in context, you are seeing the bigger picture and how they become cancelled out by the poor behavior at other times. The emotional, roller coaster of not know what you are going to get on any given day must be the worst situation to be in. It was DD's first birthday on the 25th - One year as a single mum and I did it! Loved it all, and wouldn't have changed it to be honest. I hope that you do go to your parents and use the time to get emotional support to help you make the break. You know this cycle will just go and on and on. Its just up to you when you want to get off..........

x

MyDonkeysAZombie Sat 27-Oct-12 13:41:53

They know, don't they?

My clapped out old dishwasher stopped conking out mid cycle the very day before I changed it for a nice new one - maybe it knew but I couldn't stand it letting me down so I still got rid.

You have tried so long and given him every chance to build a life with you and your DCs, he has his own list of priorities and expects everything to orbit round him. "Disney dad" can see your DCs and perhaps up his game and become a better parent post divorce, but at the moment he just suits himself and expects you to lump it.

hillyhilly Sat 27-Oct-12 16:03:28

Oh Lala, Christmas was your deadline, you know that you have tried everything and he keeps reverting to type

HansieMom Sat 27-Oct-12 17:45:14

Contrast this with his kicking toys out of the way and F-ing this and that. No good for children to live in that atmosphere.

FiercePanda Sat 27-Oct-12 20:01:27

Lala, I've said it before and I'll say it again (CatPower from your threads):

You and your children deserve so much better than this.

If you can't break up this sham of a marriage for yourself, do it for your DC's who deserve a happy and secure Mummy, and a Daddy who spends more worthwhile time with them rather than taking for granted that you'll all always be there for him to swear at, shout at and abuse.

You life could always be as peaceful as it was the week he was away. Use the time with your parents to get everything in order. Speak to your solicitor, speak to your parents - if they don't know already, make it crystal clear how terrible this "relationship" has become. Use blunt language - he abuses you. Tell them. Get them 100% on side. You will need their support, but to get the support you need you have got to be 100% honest about what's been going on, and for how long.

You CAN do this, Lala. Putting your foot down and meaning it will be the hardest part, but you can make a happy, loving, secure life for yourself and your children.

pipoca Sat 27-Oct-12 21:23:54

You can do it lala! Seize this new momentum!

LalaDipsey Sat 27-Oct-12 21:48:50

Thanks everyone. It's just so odd how tonight he has been so nice and chatty, yet today the standout moment is:
DTS crying (huge mummy's boy with separation anxiety!) so I pick him up to take into kitchen with me. DD wants something, I desperately need a pee! I tell DD I just need to wee, she can come with me and DTS and I can help her in a sec. DTD starts crying in lounge v upset (think she's bitten down on something again and hurt her little gums). I now desperately need a wee. Ask H (who is lying on sofa watching grand prix) to pick DTD up as she is upset. He says crossly 'I'm not picking them up the minute they cry, you'd bettered get used to that'
Me: 'but she's upset'
So I sit down and have to put DTS down to cuddle DTD so he starts crying. And then DD starts crying cos she wants the thing I was supposed to do after I have had a pee which I still desperately want.
To combat this H turns the volume on the TV up louder and louder and louder and says 'go for your bloody wee and take DD with you'
Uurrrgggghhhhhhhhhhhhh

LalaDipsey Sat 27-Oct-12 22:11:13

And... Earlier this week H did one of his manic tidying up sessions and cleared out a box beside his sofa where things like the Next catalogue get put. He put a pile of papers and catalogues on the kitchen counter and said 'sort through those'. I said u didn't have time right then (3 dc to look after - he didn't offer to watch them for 5 mins or make their dinner so I could sort through)
Anyway. Pile disappeared and I forgot about it until tonight was thinking about precious things to make sure are safe and went to check box where the photobook I did for DD first year which took blood sweat and tears and 12 months for me to do and.... It's gone sad it must have been in that pile sad gone sad all because when H says it must be tidy, it must be tidy sad

LalaDipsey Sat 27-Oct-12 22:12:04

I said I didn't have time right then!!

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sat 27-Oct-12 22:16:21

Grrrrrrrr! How you did not flip at this I do not know!??! when he behaves like this Lala it makes any Disney Dad time null and void. We are back to him COMPLETLY ignoring your basic human rights, ( you NEEDED to pee for gods sake!!) You HAVE to see how utterly contemptable this is??? Please,please get rid of him.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sat 27-Oct-12 22:21:58

Now just read the next two posts and am speechless. He really does not give a toss about you Lala. You will always live a life of treading on eggshells round this man - ALWAYS. But the worst thing is - so will your kids - they will be forever emotionally damaged by him - they will in turn have difficulty in relationships as they will not have seen 'normal'. The best thing you could ever do for them is to remove them as soon as possible from this oppressive atmosphere. You are not protecting them by staying with him.

zxcv123 Sat 27-Oct-12 22:38:45

The two examples you've given from this week, demonstrate this, which you would do well to remember:

He's not on your side. He's not on your DC's side either. He's only interested in himself.

It's impossible to have a fully-functioning relationship with someone like that. You know you need to call it a day. So just take a deep breath and do it.

x

finglestick Sat 27-Oct-12 22:42:39

I am new to this post and haven't read much of it but am gonna put my 2 doodahs in regardless! I have recently woken up and realised I've lived for 12 years with a man who has EA me. I have tried half heartedly to leave a few time before but always came back with promises of change. I finally decided enough was enough when he blew up over salami sandwiches (don't ask!).

I moved into the spare room that day and have been there since. He got scared and contacted Relate, I got in touch with all my old friends who I had somehow (ahem) lost contact with, and I am trying my hardest to keep strong. I have been in touch with a solicitor and CAB and they have armed me with the info I need. He has upped the emotional blackmail, EA, controlling behaviour etc to a level I never though he could. I have bad days where I shake uncontrollably, suffer anxiety attacks and can't think in a straight line. But, the good days where I feel empowered, strong, in control and, almost, happy far outweigh the bad ones!

Just get a plan, get some support from friends, family, WA, (anyone!) and DO IT!!!! It will all so be worth it in the end. Good luck!

MysteriousHamster Sat 27-Oct-12 23:12:01

The thing is Lala, he's just a horrible, nasty, selfish man.

Everything he does is calculated to get him an easy life, from being mean to you because he can't be bothered, to being just nice enough to stop you leaving.

If your DD brought home a man like that, you'd tell her to dump him, wouldn't you, no matter what?

You decided to give him a chance (and a few others, let's face it). And what has he done with it?

Stopped drinking - no.
Shown you respect - no.
Been a proper father - no.

He needs to learn the cold hard lesson that you won't live with him any more. Not that you don't want to, but that you WON'T.

Fingers crossed you can do it, whatever it is to get rid of him.

hillyhilly Sun 28-Oct-12 01:26:50

Oh please, go to your parents next week and do.not.ever.return to that man

knitknack Sun 28-Oct-12 06:00:34

This man isn't even your FRIEND let alone your husband!

legoqueen Sun 28-Oct-12 07:51:02

He hasn't changed at all Lala, throwing away your precious photo book, not caring enough to help or give the DCs a cuddle...you all deserve so much more then this...

RedMolly Sun 28-Oct-12 10:07:58

Oh sweetheart - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go to your parents and make your plan. No ifs or buts or one more chance. YOU CANNOT CHANGE HIM. HE DOES NOT WANT TO CHANGE. Use every bit of support you can get your hands on, take a deep breath and do it. Please. Your babies need you to. You need you to.

Snorbs Sun 28-Oct-12 10:08:01

Lala, if you stay with this man this is what you and your children will get for the rest of your life.

He isn't going to change. He'll occasionally throw you a bone of promising to change to get you to shut up for a while, but that's all it will be. Him hitting the snooze button on the alarm clock of your unhappiness. And despite all he's done, despite the hundreds of times he's let you down, humiliated you or bullied you, you still seize on every trivial little nice thing he does as if it is a sign from god that he's suddenly become a reasonable human being who loves you.

He hasn't. He doesn't. He won't. What you see is what you will continue to get. He's a self-centered piss-artist. He doesn't care about you. He doesn't care about the children. He only cares about himself.

Stay or go. It's your choice. But staying while hoping that he will magically change into the man you think he could/should be is an insult to your intelligence.

Look after yourself Lala. Because sure as dammit, he won't.

Nanny0gg Sun 28-Oct-12 11:10:01

Reading this thread has made me go cold.
If I was your mother I would be in despair over the way he is treating you and the children.

Please go to your parents and make a plan, your children don't deserve to live this way.

disembodiedHandbagCrab Sun 28-Oct-12 11:36:02

lala I haven't posted for a while but I've been reading. I didn't really have anything to add.

A few months ago your dh was being physical with your dc and swearing at them. I don't think things have improved for you or for them.

I have to say that your children will not thank you for staying with this man when they are older. I spent my whole childhood on eggshells around my alcoholic, bad tempered, life revolves round him father. I would not wish my childhood on anyone.

You really, really need to figure out why you won't split up your marriage. This could easily go on for the rest of your life because no one is awful 100% of the time so there will always be a cup of tea made or an extra £20 for a takeaway or an 'i love you' text that will be the crumb to give you an excuse to stay.

mathanxiety Sun 28-Oct-12 20:06:03

How about bringing your parents back with you after your visit, and when you are all gathered together they tell him he has to leave.

Your mum or dad could phone around and find suitable bedsits for him to look at during the week you are there. They could hand him the list when they deliver the news to him that he is leaving.

They should stay in your house while he packs his things. This could take several days but I think it would be important for them to be there, sleeping on the couch or maybe they could bring camp beds.

I think this is the least your parents could do for you. I think you need to recognise that on your own you are not really going to hand him any sort of ultimatum -- you haven't done this in counselling; in fact so far you have concentrated on trying to do your utmost to keep things going instead of making forward progress -- so I think it is time to hand over the reins to your parents, tell them what needs doing, tell them you need their help because you can't do this on your own, and let events run their course.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sun 28-Oct-12 20:27:11

Lala - have you any more counselling booked? I would either miss it from now on unless they are willing to see you on your own and really support you on ending this rather than saving it. I have had a couple of real 'end it' moments in my life - one work and one personal. It was as if I got up on theses mornings and just 'knew' it was the end. I took the bulls by the horns and ended it - that day! I cannot describe the absolute feeling of release and relief on both occasions. We only have one life - why waste it in situations that are making us miserable?!?!?! You have given yourself the luxury of trying to make it work and you have to be convinced by now that it really is not going to happen. You can walk away knowing that you morally did all you could. MORALLY you and the kids are the priority now - NOT HIM. Please do not give him priority any more. Make your kids your focus - they have not been but need to be. His behaviour is only going to damage them emotionally. I work with boys who have had miserable young lives and there is no debate - these things fu** them up. If you can't leave him then I have to be blunt and ask you to think about letting the kids go to a place they can be outside his influence. Lala - you need to ' man up' 'dig deep' and do the deed. Leave him - chuck him out and find out what living a life really means.

If I have been harsh its because I wish you well in the most urgent way.

Be strong - it's the best feeling xx

LalaDipsey Tue 30-Oct-12 21:33:10

Well it's our 8th wedding Anniversary today. Neither of us has mentioned it. I spoke to him earlier as we are both poorly and to update him on how the dc are. It was a pleasant chat with awkward pauses around the elephant of our WA!!

Math, thanks but I will end this myself - I'm a grown woman and I owe it to myself and him to do it in person when it is the right moment.
Secret - for once I disagree - it would not be better for the dc to be away from me at all. Yes, it will be better for them in a way when H is around less, but he isn't around that much and the current situation is better than me not being there too!!
A good friend has lent me 'too good to leave too bad to stay'. I am at point %239 and still have to find a reason to stay - the author keeps saying 'based on your answer the likelihood is you will be happier if you leave'
It's not rocket science, life is too short.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Wed 31-Oct-12 09:35:16

I suppose I was being deliberately blunt Lala. I know you wouldn't be separated from your children but I do wonder if you really believe the damage that will be piling up month on month. I woundered if you see yourself as the barrier between them and him and that you are 'shielding' them from the worst of it?? The thing is that it is during the first years that all our emotional building blocks are laid down. The brain is making these pathways and our experience shapes them. I work with boys who have serious attachment disorders who will always struggle to make and retain normal relationships with anyone due to the emotional , ( and physical), abuse they suffered as young children. These are THE most important years for helping you children to shape who they will become. Children are not daft and before long they will be very aware of the atmosphere, tension, strain and the massive ups and downs. Does your DP understand this? If he wanted to give them the very best of himself he would he would recognise the damage he is inflicting on all of you BUT crucially them. He would remove him self and get better but despite all you have done to facilitate this happening he has not taken up the opportunity has he?

It is so heart breaking to see the state of some of these boys I work with. One in particular that I have made such progress with will routienly panic that he is actually succeeding in a positive relationship with an adult and turn round and spew torrents of abuse at me and he's back to square one. Please really think about it Lala - sometimes it really is better to be without a parent if they are not considering your mental and emotional well being. X

PlopButNOPudding Sun 04-Nov-12 18:15:01

Hey Lala, 

I checked your thread again and was really hoping you'd left him.

I'm really sorry to hear this situation is still going on and that he's continuing his vile behaviour towards you and the dc. I hope you still went to your parents.

Math, thanks but I will end this myself - I'm a grown woman and I owe it to myself and him to do it in person when it is the right moment.

Math has some very good advice on how to end this. It might be hard to hear but it is great advice. 

You don't owe anything to him, you do however owe it to your DC to protect them by ending this relationship asap, because it WILL and probably already is, damaging them. 

You've had a lot of advice on here from people with first hand experience of having a father like this, yet you still seem to think that it doesnt apply to your dc. Or that your h isn't as bad. 

"the current situation is better than me not being there too!!"

Unfortunately a court doesn't always see it like that if a father hurts a child and the mother refuses to put the safety of her dc before her relationship.
And your dc are not going to see it like that when they are older and suffering some of the effects Secret is talking about.

zxcv123 Sun 04-Nov-12 19:51:55

Hi Lala

Just hoping that your weekend was productive, you spoke honestly with your parents, rallied their support and that you have planned what to do next.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sat 10-Nov-12 20:06:05

Lala - how goes it. Hope I'm not I the dog house??

LalaDipsey Sat 10-Nov-12 20:26:59

No, not at all! Just working through some stuff. Won't bore you with H's latest behaviour, but am psyching up for ending it. Counsellor said to make plans first - so far I have got boxes of paperwork and precious stuff out of the house to a friends. I have local friends on alert with a text code in case he kicks off. My parents know I am going to end it, but that I am still working out when.
I had chosen my lawyer, thinking legal aid ended in October but know think it's going until April so I need to investigate that.
Counsellor also said to speak again to the local DV team so they have this address and number just in case.
I am not feeling strong enough to plan a 'ending it event' at the moment but I think and hope I am poised for seizing the moment when it crops up. I hope so.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sun 11-Nov-12 08:04:50

Good on you Lala. Well done on all the practical stuff you have got organised. I appreciate how painful this but you are doing the right thing. Keep strong and massive respect to you. Xxxx

mummytime Sun 11-Nov-12 08:11:00

Well done! Do let us know when you actually do it, think of us like a Mumsnet Greek chorus standing behind you to give your strength.

Bluestocking Sun 11-Nov-12 08:25:10

Hi Lala, I've been lurking on your thread, willing you on to get yourself and your children out of this horrible situation. Your husband isn't going to change.
I grew up in a situation very like this, and like disembodiedHandbagCrab, I too "spent my whole childhood on eggshells around my alcoholic, bad tempered, life revolves round him father". It took me until I was well into my thirties until I stopped being absolutely terrified of him. Although I've now forgiven him (mostly) for the damage to my childhood and to me, I am finding find it much more difficult to forgive my mother for not protecting me and my sisters from him when we were small and vulnerable.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sun 18-Nov-12 18:33:05

How are you?

LalaDipsey Mon 19-Nov-12 17:49:03

Aaaagggghhhhhhhh!! Kind of sums me up. Dc have been poorly so sleep out of the window again. H went out to the pub within an hour of me getting home from hospital with DTS.
He had solo counselling today. I am prepared for this to precipitate a conversation tonight so am girding my loins! I wish I had your strength the way you finished it the day you decided it was over. I have worked through the book, I have received my validation! Everything else aside, H continues to drink (went to pub at 3.22pm on Saturday).

LalaDipsey Mon 19-Nov-12 20:29:05

Well, H went and bought me a bday pressie after counselling(for tomorrow). Just typical he finally does it now!!!
We have had a brief chat and agreed to talk Friday or Saturdy. He said he was resigned to what we would say but that we needed to talk it through. He said he has lots to say. Keep me strong and focussed Girlies - he may go into 'reasonable, slightly hurt & sad, loving mode' between now & then!

RedMolly Mon 19-Nov-12 22:44:43

Happy birthday lala.

You know the important thing to focus on is his actions and not his words, as the two are clearly not mutually exclusive.

Hope your dc are ok now.

ccarpenton Mon 19-Nov-12 23:40:20

"I am hoping to use counselling to help me end it in a 'safe environment' which I did tell the counsellor last week."

Absolutely. It always amazes me how drink vs. keeping something you love is not a simple question for some people.

He can spout he loves you all he likes. Obviously not even close enough though. Remember that.

MrsHoolie Tue 20-Nov-12 07:20:04

He obviously thinks nipping to the pub whenever he feels like it is acceptable.

The thing is,he just does what he wants and has walked all over you. And he goes to the pub/drinks at home and you are still with him so he thinks its ok,no matter what protests you make.

He is selfish beyond words. It would need a miracle for him to change.

FiercePanda Tue 20-Nov-12 09:44:39

he may go into 'reasonable, slightly hurt & sad, loving mode' between now & then!

Of course he will, Lala, I'd bet my last £1 on it. He'll act the way he knows you dream of him acting to keep you hooked so you'll give him another "one last chance". Once he knows you'll stay, he'll be back to the pub and anger in a flash.

Stay strong. You know the niceness is just an act. If it was the real him he'd be nice all the time.

LalaDipsey Tue 20-Nov-12 18:16:36

H bought me flowers today for my bday. First time ever (on bday but not that often either any other time) sad
and he got me a card and pressie from dc (although he did write 'mum' on the card!! Mum???!!!!! I am a mummy!!!!
And he came home with steak to cook for dinner and he has a present for me!!!
Wtaf???!!!!! Too late. Finally I get a birthday sad

dibs78 Tue 20-Nov-12 18:50:47

Happy birthday lala.
I have just read this thread from beginning. I am so sorry that you and your DC are in this situation. You have had some excellent advice from other posters. I really don't have much to say other than PLEASE be strong and please go and get yourself and your DCs a life that you deserve.
I know when you live in a certain situation it becomes 'normal' but he is not the norm. Your poor children really deserve to be out of a situation where one of their parents will treat them/their mummy like this.
It is so evident that you are an amazing mummy. You love your DD to the moon and back- would this be a life you would wish on her??? No of course not- so (and here I'm going to sound cheesy but bear with me, I'm so sad for you that it's made me very emotional) please start 'loving yourself' enough to really once and for all get yourself the out of this horrendous situation. Your treading water instead of living.
What he has done today for your birthday is the minimum a lovely, normal man does for his dw.
Anyway- I haven't said anything particularly helpful but please know I'm another one rooting for you and hoping you end up with a happier life for u and your little ones x

dibs78 Tue 20-Nov-12 18:53:25

Meant to say....it's the minimum a normal decent guy dies but it's taken all if this in order for him to buy his dw flowers/card and a steak?!?! Way too little...way too late!!!!!

zxcv123 Wed 21-Nov-12 08:46:49

Re your planned conversation this weekend - just write down what you want to say to him, read it out and mean what you say. There will never be a "perfect time" to end it. There will always be loose ends and things you wish you'd said/done/resolved in a relationship like this. But it doesn't matter. All that matters is that you end it, even if it's done in a messy way.

I thought of you last week. We had to phone a father to collect his ill child. He turned up drunk, wanting to drive his child home. We took the decision not to allow him to do that. Could not get hold of the mother as she was not picking up her mobile. Distraught child sobbing, father saying he was in rehab and promising it would never happen again etc. It was a total mess - police and social services now involved. Please don't let that be your DCs in a few years' time. Get out now whilst they are still young enough for you to pick up the pieces.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Thu 22-Nov-12 18:16:56

smile

LalaDipsey Sat 24-Nov-12 11:11:59

Ok so we didn't talk last night as H was too pissed (IMO not his!). I said I wouldn't talk when he had been to the pub so we agrees to talk Sunday night (obviously wouldn't miss a Saturday trip to the pub methinks!).
He has said some odd things tho - yday he said when should we get the xmas decs out and that why didn't we get a new dec every year so that in ten years we had amazing decs??!!! This is the man who, on Monday night, said he knew what the outcome of the talk would be!!!
He has had flashes of Disney Dad but is currently on sofa cuddling DD napping (him not DD!). I asked if he would take her to the start of a party this afternoon as it starts in the middle of DTs nap and I Would come up as soon as they woke. He suggested he took DD early and they went out to lunch first. I asked DD this morning if she'd like that and she got very excited. Needless to say his hangover is kicking in hence the sofa sleeping. She keeps asking when they are going out and he just grunts and mumbles 'later'. He can't see that its because he's hungover tho he would say he's tired from the working week (he worked from home for 4 days this week and has got up at least 2 hours later than me and dc every morning and he has had uninterrupted nights sleep so don't talk to me about tired you twunt!
ok so wobbles gone I think. Project marriage over to commence tomorrow evening!

Repetitiverobot Sat 24-Nov-12 15:55:37

Hi. It mummybussy with a name change here! Just wanted to wish you luck and let you know I'm still here watching and sending you lots of strength!!

Blending Sat 24-Nov-12 16:01:06

You sound nice and resolute Lala, I just wanted to say good luck, and echo what others have said.

Be clear about what you want to happen, and by when. Remember this is not a negotiation. You have came to this very difficult point with a lot soul searching, and have given him the opportunity to change.

YOU have come to the conclusion that he will not change.
YOU have decided you and your children deserve a better life, where you are not let down continually or walking on egg shells to avoid confrontation/
YOU have decided you are ready to do this.

What willl his reponse be? Contrite? Pleading? Angry?
How will you deal with that?
Does he believe that he can throw you a bit of Disney Dad, or another promise and you'll back down?

I believe that forewarned is forearmed. So think it through so you are ready, and wont be thrown when he tells you that yes he will "cut down the drink, but it would be unreasonable of you to expect that right now, with Christmas comming and everything..."

I didn't mean to post such a long reply!

Good luck and remember we are here regardless of what does or doesn't happen, it is all about you and your lovely miracle babys.

LalaDipsey Sun 25-Nov-12 13:23:48

Thanks all. I need encouraging messages! Just the odd little wobble here and there as he has been pretty good.
What am I saying?!?!?! Pretty good?!? He got paralytic on Friday so did nothing all day yday and I took all 3 dc to the party as he needed to 'sleep and watch the rugby!'
Ok so he cooked me dinner but it was just freezer -> oven -> plate stuff!
Just remembering it's HIM ending it with his behaviour, not me. Gosh. 19 years. 3 children. Must not linger on those thoughts!
Bolster me up if you can! Thanks smile

zxcv123 Sun 25-Nov-12 15:29:00

The best advice I can give is to stop thinking about HIM. It really doesn't matter what he says / promises etc at this stage. You don't need HIS permission to leave. You don't even have to explain it all to him thoroughly if you don't want to or start getting tongue-tied.

Your top priority has to be your DCs' health, safety and happiness. It may be sad, but it's true nonetheless, that you and your DCs will do so much better once he's no longer around.

LalaDipsey Sun 25-Nov-12 17:56:45

Well FW went out to the pub at 3.45 so that kiboshes any talk tonight. Sabotage?!

FiercePanda Sun 25-Nov-12 18:37:28

Of course hes sabotaging this. If he cared about saving this sham of a marriage at all he'd be at home with you. You can see how important you are to him. angry. Why wait to talk yet again, just for your words to fall on deaf ears? You know what you HAVE to do - and what's more, he does too, that's why he's at the pub ignoring you until you give in again. You don't need his permission. Please, put the wheels in motion to be free, so you and your DCs can be happy.

LalaDipsey Sun 25-Nov-12 18:52:27

The whole point of this talk is to end it, not to talk about issues again but I won't end it when he is pissed. He is unpredictable and may not remember!

mammadiggingdeep Sun 25-Nov-12 19:31:54

I've been following your thread.don't know if I've missed you discussing this, so forgive me if I have, but would it be possible for you to change locks/ put a bag on the step??? It seems you're waiting for a convo to finish it (I know that's the civil way of doing it) but if he's sabotaging and refusing to sit and talk I think you need to just do it.

MysteriousHamster Sun 25-Nov-12 20:21:44

Thing is, the first night he's not pissed he'll probably act all understanding for one night only, and you might find it too hard to do (which I have sympathy with!), so perhaps it's better to do it AND just tell him again tomorrow when he's not drunk.

You can do it!

dribbleface Sun 25-Nov-12 20:30:17

Ok, have lurked from your very first post/thread. Just wanted to say stay strong, could you arrange for someone to have the children one morning, as If you wait for evenings the odds are he will have had a drink.

FiercePanda Sun 25-Nov-12 20:38:00

Just tell him straight. There's no need for a big elaborate conversation. Your decision is made, done, you know you won't change your mind. Tell him, and if he feigns amnesia, keep telling him, and keep showing him by getting in touch with your solicitor, organising the junk from the essentials, telling him what he has to do. You no longer want to be in the relationship and he cannot force you to stay in it, nor do you need to wait for him to "let" you separate. In a split there will always be one party who is unhappy and doesn't want it to happen - that's almost inevitable - but you have got to take control of your life without him dragging you and your DCs down.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Sun 25-Nov-12 20:59:22

Hi Lala,

You have to shift your mind set from considering his feelings to only considering your own and the children. He has repeatedly demonstrated he is un-reliable in his consistency and this really does free you from your obligation to him and his feelings. So....... He does not need to even be present when you decide it's over - he just needs to be informed that that is the case in a very matter of fact manner - this communication is NOT a discussion -( as you have identified in above posts there is nothing left to discuss) you need to be clear in your mind that it is very simply over : " this is over, we are done and this is what is happening now....." If he try's to begin a negotiation or discussion you need to stop him and refer back to the first sentence and just keep repeating it. You could leave without even speaking to him if you wish. I think you have some vision of an almighty showdown event where holy hell happens and it scares you and I can understand that. BUT the stage managing of this is in your hands - plan it out - have people with you to support you if you need to, talk through a plan that gives you the advantage and the higher ground to be in control of what happens. You SO know how unacceptable his behaviour is - get mad if you have to, he must not rob you all of another day of your lives, sometimes you just have to grab a scary thing and do it. I am sending waves of girl power at you Lala!! Xx

LalaDipsey Sun 25-Nov-12 21:30:00

Hi. Thanks I am trying to remain clear.
H tried to start a conversation - he said communication was our biggest problem (?!). I just said we had a lot of problems but I want going to talk when he was pissed. He said he didn't want to leave it til next weekend so we can talk tomorrow. hmm
At least I have a solo counselling session tomorrow (as long as DTD is well enough to leave) - last session - so hope that helps me with some pointers.
Thankyou for all your posts - they are helping - I kind of need cheering on now to cross that line!

MrsHoolie Sun 25-Nov-12 22:24:38

<de lurking>
We're all rooting for you Lala.
If you wait until he's alcohol free to have a chat then you may be waiting a while.....
Best of luck.

FiercePanda Sun 25-Nov-12 22:55:53

Remember as well, Lala, in his mind nothing's going to change because he can switch back to Disney Dad mode and make you question your decision again. Please don't let him. You know it's all an act, you know drinking will always come first to him, you know you deserve better. He's had plenty of warning, he's known for months how you've felt. If he had ANY inclination to change, he would have done it months ago. Lala, I've been posting and easing since your first thread, I know how hard you've tried to make this work and how many chances you've given him to try to change. You've done everything any woman could do to try to make your marriage work. You haven't failed - he has.

Good luck Lala, I'm cheering you on here. Xxx

FiercePanda Sun 25-Nov-12 22:56:44

reading, not easing. Stupid autocorrect! angry

RedMolly Mon 26-Nov-12 12:16:20

Good luck for tonight. Remember all you need to say is that it is over. You don't need to justify yourself to him, or go over all the details again. You are telling him, not discussing it with him. Will be thinking of you.

RedMolly Mon 26-Nov-12 12:20:15

Also meant to say, make it very clear to your counsellor that you are ending it tonight. Make sure the focus is on giving you the confidence to see it through, and don't let the session go down any other avenue. Time to find that roar.

Blending Mon 26-Nov-12 17:01:40

You can do this.

You are absolutely right to think he's sabotaging your attempts to talk about it in an adult manner. He is also trying to keep his head firmly in the sand with his talk of long term plans. Think of him as a toddler sticking his fingers in his ears and refusing to look at you, when he dosen't want to hear you (Or is that just my toddler?!)

Pom Poms at the ready!

NoWayNoHow Mon 26-Nov-12 18:19:43

lala, everyone on this thread has been behind since day one.

You DON'T need his permission to end it
You DON'T need to have a discussion with him about it again
You DON'T have to enter into any negotiation with him - time for that has past
You DON'T have to play second fiddle to alcohol a moment longer
You DON'T have to justify your decision to him at all - he knows why it's over
You DON'T have to give him any more chances - he's thrown every previous chance back in your face

You ARE strong enough to do this.

NotWilliamBoyd Mon 26-Nov-12 19:41:52

Thinking of you this evening Lala

LalaDipsey Mon 26-Nov-12 22:50:45

Well I've done it. Still feels unclear though even tho we discussed him moving out.
He said he didn't want to, that deep down he'd thought we could work things out.
He also said he had done everything I've asked, except stop drinking, but that it was his only joy. I gave a few things he hadn't done.
He said I hadn't given an inch no matter what he's done and I said nothing had been sustained.
He then said what if he did stop drinking. I said he would have to seek outside help, that I couldn't do it anymore, that I had given him details of 2 agencies which weren't AA months ago.
He said he wouldn't stay in this town, that he would move away, that work was so stressful and he only did it for us that he might as well stop and go on the dole (am hoping that's rubbish!)
So there we are. Now trying to settle 2 babies who have been screaming for an hour. Joy! X

mammadiggingdeep Mon 26-Nov-12 22:56:13

How do you feel? Is he leaving? Well done, have followed your thread and think you have been very strong.

I'm also settling two littluns....a toddler who has decided tonight to start getting out of bed and standing on the landing....where's supernanny???!

MysteriousHamster Mon 26-Nov-12 23:12:24

First off WELL DONE!

Secondly, he's trying to turn it onto you - typical. And as you're a decent human being you'll be feeling guilty but please don't.

How can he think it's acceptable to say being an alcoholic is his only joy? His children and wife should be his joys.

By 'give an inch' he actually means you should be grateful for small favours (like one birthday in 20 years) and shut up about everything else. He wants a mile, not an inch, please don't be drawn in by this nonsense.

Why should you have to work at getting him to give up drink - he is an adult - it is on him.

I'm sure it's been hard and you're exhausted but this is a good step. A needed step. He can't change. Certainly not while you're there to rescue him and accept his scraps of comfort. If he needs to move away so be it.

Is there any plan re. him moving out?

MrsHoolie Mon 26-Nov-12 23:19:00

Well done Lala.

Stay strong x

NoWayNoHow Mon 26-Nov-12 23:19:08

Well done lala. Remember, you don't have to justify this decision to him at all. He's not stupid. In fact, he's showing some lovely true colours with his emotional blackmail and guilt tripping and "I'll move so far away the kids will never see me" and "I'll give my job up and go on the dole so I can't support you"

Desperate tactics from someone who's FINALLY facing the consequences of his endless prioritisation of alcohold over his beautiful wife and 3 DCs.

Well, if alcohol really is his "only joy" (what a REVOLTING thing to say), then he'll be perfectly happy when he moves out.

You have been very strong, don't back down now - be prepared for him to used every nasty trick in the book now to guilt you into changing your mind.

Give him a deadline by when you want him out the house. Don't let this massive step become a non-issue just because you want to avoid conflict, otherwise he'll still be there after Christmas, still drinking, still runningyou ragged, and still giving you crumbs when yuo should have your cake.

FiercePanda Tue 27-Nov-12 00:30:55

Well done Lala. He knows you're serious, that's why he's dishing out the emotional blackmail and guilt trips.

Ignore. Don't engage. Dismiss with a disinterested "that's nice" and concentrate on creating a happy home for the DCs and you.

I'm really proud of how far you've come Lala. Stay strong. X

RedMolly Tue 27-Nov-12 09:26:49

Oh well done you. It's only a first step but it is a massive one to take and can't have been easy. I hope you're feeling strong enough not to let the emotional blackmail bullshit get to you - his future is for him to sort out, not you. Please take heed of my warnings about maintaining momentum, especially now you've come this far. You may not feel like it yet, but maybe start thinking about seeing your solicitor and getting things moving - i think until he receives something official he will just keep playing the game and will bank on you letting things slide. That's for the next few days and weeks though - i think for now you should just feel damn right proud of yourself.

hillyhilly Tue 27-Nov-12 09:39:20

I really hope you can see it through this time Lala, he sounds truly awful and as someone else pointed out then if drinking is his only joy (wtf!!!), then he can be very very happy from now on without you trying to stop him. Please plan your next steps as to how and when this separation actually becomes exactly that - who is moving out and when, get it planned, what are your Christmas plans?

Blending Tue 27-Nov-12 10:47:54

Well done. That's that first step.

It's classic behaviour to push the blame back onto you. The next part of the script is the threats of giving up everything ie job/ all contact /move to the Outer Hebrides. Don't let him emotionally blackmail you.

You need all your stregnth to make it happen. You don't want to be living in the same house as he WILL continue to carry on as if you haven't had this difficult conversation. And it will drag on and on.

What time-scales have you got in mind? Has he agreed to move out?

You need to hold on to the realisation that he won't change, no matter how he twists things.

You have shown amazing strength, and have gone beyond what you needed to, leaving no possibility untried to save your marriage. Unfortunately it takes two people to make a true effort.

You can try and take some reassurance from the fact that you have done much much more than most people would have done in your situation.

The bottom line is he won't (not can't) change dispite all of your effort.

We are here for all of your ramblings, and to hold your hand.

LalaDipsey Tue 27-Nov-12 13:52:17

He asked when he should move out. I didn't have an answer, he went on to say he would want to buy, not rent. I didn't tell him he wouldn't be able to whilst his name is on the mortgage here.
Because the conversation was left after I'd cried and he said he didn't want to go I agree I have to keep momentum up or he will think this is like last time.
This weekend we have to discuss timescales and money. Maybe I haven't had the scariest conversation yet!
I feel ok. Quite calm. Quite sad. A bit teary. But quite certain.
It's funny how when I talk to my mum I am so clear why we are over and yet when I talked to H last night he makes me feel uncertain and that I'm being silly and that it is my fault for being cold and shutting him out.

FiercePanda Tue 27-Nov-12 14:02:41

Hi Lala,

Is there any way your Mum could come to stay with you for a few days, whilst you and STBX get the details of your split sorted out? You need some strength, someone with you in your corner who can remind you that you are not some cold, unfeeling, heartless bitch but a woman who has been completely let down and driven to the edge by her husband's alcoholism and refusal to participate in family life. You don't need to cover for him, or feel ashamed/embarrassed/a failure for splitting up. He is the one who should be ashamed for putting his drinking above the welfare and happiness of his family. You don't have to "cover" for him anymore. He has made his bed, he has to damn well lie in it.

In the meantime, make the separation real, as much as you are comfortable doing. Tell family and friends - you don't have to give specifics, but can say that after a lot of soul-searching you know this is the right decision and would appreciate their support.

Make sure that you're living "as separated". Do not cook or clean for him. Do not touch his laundry. Do not share a bed. Do not feel you have to "check in" with him, or let him know what you are doing. Keep him in the loop as much as he is willing regarding the children, but your life is your own and he has no say in it.

Please try to see a solicitor as soon as you can so you can get some advice on what you are entitled to financially. Never forget, your STBX will probably make this unbelievably difficult for you so it seems like too much hard work and you give in again - he'll bullshit about not paying maintenance, having no money to cover mortgage, sodding off to live on Mars so he'll never see the kids again - you need to have rock-solid knowledge of what you're legally entitled to as a spouse. He cannot shirk his responsibilities to you and your children any longer.

Come here whenever you feel like you're wobbling. You've been conditioned by him for years, this will take a long time to get over, but you will get there. Your feelings and needs are valid, they need to be satisfied for your future wellbeing - you don't have to put up with anything he says or does anymore. Remember that the next time he tries to bullshit you about this all being your fault.

xx

hillyhilly Tue 27-Nov-12 16:17:20

Great advice from panda, he needs to move out immediately and that will mean renting, even if he thinks its while he's looking to buy.

zxcv123 Tue 27-Nov-12 18:44:39

Hi Lala - So relieved that you have finally made your decision; and glad that you feel calm and certain. Calm and certain is a good place to be.

Yes, your H will try to mess with your head (and the threats re moving away, giving up work etc are just his way of trying to make you feel guilty) but YOU are in the driving seat now. So get yourself down to a solicitor ASAP, tell them you want them to draft divorce papers on the basis of unreasonable behaviour and ask what a reasonable split of assets / income would be. Then armed with that info, you can tell your H what will happen next. Note the use of the word "tell", not discuss or negotiate. If he feels the need to negotiate, I would tell him to speak to your lawyer.

If I were you, I would invite friends and family round as much as possible whilst you are going through this transition period, so that he understands that you have moved on and you learn to disengage

LalaDipsey Tue 27-Nov-12 20:13:10

I did feel calm and confident until I just got a text from H who is working away til Friday. I am now in tears. He says he is still hopeful moving out isn't the only option. That please can we talk .
I want to say ok goto AA. Stop drinking. Then maybe.
Until I got his text I was having a bath and enjoying the thought of coming downstairs without him here and then I got the text and I'm crying because I want everything to be ok

Lala

He had time to 'talk' months and months but he choose not too. He choose to continue His behaviour.

I would tell him to move out ASAP, work on himself then you can talk. It's only once he out of the home will you be able to think clearly about what best for you and your dc.

NoWayNoHow Tue 27-Nov-12 20:34:51

He is messing with you in the way that he knows works. It's cruel.

wheredidiputit is right. Send a text back that the time to talk has past - he needs to move out, take action against his alcoholism, and then you will talk with him.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't fall for his bullshit for the umpteenth time.

It is hard, but what you're doing is necessary.

It's been almost a year since you started your first thread. He doesn't deserve any more years without offering a stitch in return.

You are strong. You've done the right thing. Cry privately, but stick to your guns.

FiercePanda Tue 27-Nov-12 22:09:43

Please don't give in again Lala. Please. It is horrible and tough but he's fucking you over. Tell him he's going, and that's the end of it. He's had chance after chance, ignored them all, because (in his own words), drink is his only pleasure. His only pleasure. Not you. Not your beautiful children. Drink.

zxcv123 Wed 28-Nov-12 09:05:59

Lala - I hope you are feeling OK and more resolved this morning. Yes, it's upsetting to get texts from him. But he has told you (very honestly) that his main joy is drink. That means that he is not the man you thought you married and he has certainly not become the father you could have expected him to be.

Let him fix himself (if he can) away from you and the children. If he manages that long-term, then you could always start your relationship again in the future. Although, even without the drink, would he still be unhelpful, swearing, angry, unreliable, self-centred etc? Personally, I think that once you've made the break properly, you'll never want him back! It's only once you're living a normal life that you'll come to realise just how abnormal your previous life was.

Your H's main priority is drink. You know you need to make your main priority your children. - so stick with it, even though it is hard. x

LalaDipsey Wed 28-Nov-12 14:08:14

Thankyou. I texted back eventually that I would write down how I feel so he could maybe understand. He texted back that was great - I think he thought I meant I was saying we cld sort things. Anyway I started typing and have kept going! Not sent it yet and I may post it here first for additions/feedback! I need it ready for Friday night. Am finding it quite cathartic. Keep me focussed please tho - I had thought I was certain and hadn't predicted how easily I could be swayed for a bit. Thanks all of you x

AbigailAdams Wed 28-Nov-12 14:22:22

Lala you are giving him too much of an "in". This is what he wants. He has done nothig in all these months (I have been following this thread from the beginning). If you tell him how you feel, even written down:

He will use it as a tool to beat you with - again
He will turn it around on to you - again
He will use it as an excuse to carry on "discussions"
He will try and say he needs to have the opportunity to address your issues.

He is abusive. He doesn't care about your feelings and even if he did IT DOESN'T MATTER. Because he cannot use that knowledge in any other way than just to carry on abusing you. This is what abusers do. The feeling that eveything is clear when you speak to your mum and then not when you speak to him is classic abuser style. Confusion, obfuscation, redirection, reflection, projection. They use it all TO GET WHAT THEY WANT.

Disengage. Now. That is the only way you are going to break free from him. Do not enter into any more discussions about this other than when is he going to move out. That is all you want or need from him.

NoWayNoHow Wed 28-Nov-12 17:37:44

I agree with Abigail, lala -write down everything you need to, but DON'T send it to him. He will just use it against you. My friend has just had experience of this very same thing, with an unfaithful ex who was bordering on abusive territory (he would have been if he'd had longer).

She wrote it down to get it out, but then sent it to him, and now she's opened those channels of communication again, he is testing her and trying her and twisitng everything so that she genuinely is starting to doubt herself.

Please don't give him the opportunity. The ONLY thing you need to be talking to him about is bare basic DC information (which he doesn't care about anyway) and when he's moving out

You've come so far, don't let him take this from you.

FiercePanda Wed 28-Nov-12 17:46:02

God, Lala, he plays you like a violin and you fall for it every time. Why are you pandering to him, writing out your emotions for him to read, laugh at and dismiss? Being so open with him only gives him more ways to screw you up. He already knows exactly how you feel - what he's doing now is persuading you that you don't really feel like that, you don't really want to split, you don't really want him to move out, you don't want to continue counselling, you don't want to complain about him ignoring his wife and children... He wants you so beaten down that you think "actually, I don't mind being an emotional doormat and slave to the housework because it's better than being a single mother."

You know you need (need, as well as want) him out of the family home so you can concentrate on building up your strength, your self-esteem, your self-worth and your happiness as well as caring for your children and letting them play, letting them run about and make a noise and make a mess without stressing whether "D"H will shout and scream and throw a tantrum because he's abusive and hungover again.

Again, I'll say it. He's an abusive, misogynistic alcoholic. He has no love or respect for you as a woman, and even less for his children. His only pleasure in life is drinking - he told you that from his own mouth! Not you, not your children, but drinking and forgetting about everything he should be cherishing.

He is a pathetic, abusive waste of skin, Lala, but he plays you every single time you show an ounce of strength, and before you know it you're giving him another "one last chance". I can tell you exactly how this'll go - he'll read your letter/email and make all the right noises, cry, tell you he knows how terribly he's behaved, how he thinks you'd be better off without him but he loves you, he needs you, he can't go on without you. He'll go to counselling, maybe even an AA meeting or two, he'll be a "great" Dad at the weekend (and by great I mean he'll do the bare minimum that most normal Dad's do day in, day out) and you'll think wistfully that this time, maybe this time he's really changed... Only he hasn't, because it'll be back to "a couple of beers" on a Friday, then out to the pub all Saturday, topped off with a bottle of wine to himself when he gets home. Then it's back to the hangovers, the anger, the shouting, the throwing things at his children and making them bleed, the scaring your DD, back to making you feel worthless.

You have all the power, Lala. You can make it all stop. You just have to stick to your guns and stop letting him in time after time. If he ever, ever, ever wanted to change, he'd have done it a year ago. Please don't waste another year on him.

LalaDipsey Wed 28-Nov-12 19:28:17

Hi. I know and I appreciate what you're saying and I do remember the last time (years ago) I wrote him a letter and he ignored it and made it all my fault. However I want to do this, when I talk to him I am not clear or firm enough so here's my draft..... (it's not pretty, formatted or grammar checked, it's just me 'dumping' onto paper)

Yes we have problems between us but I feel like it you could compare us to the Titanic - doesn't matter about the other problems when there's an enormous hole in the ship. And the enormous hole is your alcoholism. And I do think you're an alcoholic. And now all I think about is your drinking - how much you're having, how long will you be at the pub, how much when you get home, will you strop, will you spend the next day hungover - in bed or hungover on the sofa. And when will you drink again? And will it make you short tempered with the children or me? What's it doing to your health? What has it done to our finances? And now you have let DD down. Because you were hungover you didn't take her out for lunch. And you swore at baby DTD after we got back from the party. You had just had 3 hours to yourself to do whatever you wanted and within 3 minutes of being home just because DTD was in a tizzy you swore at her. Saying 'fuck me' is NOT acceptable in front of children. Your swearing is creeping up again and your tolerance for the children is decreasing - any coincidence your alcohol intake has increased as well?
And you make me cancel a £3.59/wk snack box when you spend goodness knows how much a week on alcohol and cigarettes?? £100/wk? £150? Yes there have been expenses lately but show me one thing (apart from the massage) which has been for me?
I can't cope with your behaviour anymore. You haven't followed through on:
- reading the book the counsellor asked
- going to counselling in your holiday

- attending counselling regularly as a couple - I reckon we've had about 5 joint sessions in over 4 months.

- Initiating and doing the reviews the counsellor asked us to do
- spending the time I asked helping at the weekend

- being involved in school discussions

- changing nappies - you have changed one
- Having family outings
- Helping at bed/bathtime
- us spending time together
- STOPPING DRINKING

Your involvement with the children remains the 'fun' input. You come in and play beautifully when you choose to but it isn't consistent and you don't do any of the 'legwork' of parenting - feeding, bathing, dressing, consistent & fair & calm disciplining, soothing crying babies, changing nappies etc etc. You are still quick to anger - grabbing DD's arm again just 2 weeks ago. IT IS NOT OK.

you go on about money but you are spending a small fortune on alcohol. Think of what we could have done with that money over the past 5 years? At your height of drinking maybe £6k a year of drinking and smoking. Maybe £25k in 5 years. Think where we could be financially - loads of mortgage paid off. You properly insured. I still can't get over the fact that your lifestyle puts you so at risk of us losing you to a serious illness and yet you don't stop AND you're not insured enough so if something happens to you we would lose the house. Pre twins, you never came to bed with me - you would rather stay up with wine for company and pass out on the sofa. I do not believe it has been 5 years. Things were hard before I got pregnant with DD in that I know I found our infertility very hard but we DID communicate. Things changed when I became pregnant and tired and didn't drink. This is when you started staying up night after night, drinking. Your drinking escalated when I was in hospital before having DD. When I started bleeding I had to ring Cara to get Simone to drive you to the hospital because you were hammered AND you came in, threw my water away and poured a G&T into my water cup!! It was then I knew you had an alcohol problem but I didnt want to face it with a newborn very much loved and wanted DD. You stopped coming to bed. You stayed up, passing out on the sofa and waking up somewhere between 1am and 4am and coming to bed. THIS is why our relationship deteriorated. I could no longer communicate with you. You were either drunk (in which case don't say the wrong thing for fear or setting you off), hungover (ditto), or you were in between and all was ok and I didn't want to rock the boat. I feel like I have been second fiddle to alcohol for far too long, and I won't let our children be second fiddle and I'm not going to be any more. In various conversations over the last few months you have alternated between 'I won't stop' and 'I will stop'. All I know is you haven't and any attempt to cut down doesn't last long.
Yes you work hard. I work bloody hard too and often at the moment 20 hour days as the babies aren't sleeping and you just lie in to whenever you like, regardless of how little sleep I have had, and it's not good enough. I have been specific about what I want. I have been clear. You have chosen not to change these ways.
I have said numerous times, and the counsellor did too, that I cannot change until I see sustained proof you have. I was getting warmer towards you and then on your week off you blew it. You were horrid. Your week off was horrid. You started kicking toys again and getting angry and drinking more and we achieved nothing as a family.
I do see you doing more with the children than you were, but in the main it is still ten minutes here and there. You haven't followed through and done breakfasts or dinners with the children. You still get cross and swear at them, and about them, when they cry.
One of the reasons I can't get warmer to you is that I have so much buried anger towards you that I can't express as I am too conditioned not to for fear of setting you off.
YOU ARE STILL DRINKING

I need space. I need to not need to worry about you and your drink for a little while. I am so tired of thinking about it. I need you to go. I need you to move out. I am not going to let DTS become a 4th (or more, who knows) generation alcoholic. If you choose to seek help and stop then it needs to be for you and then we can talk again. You say that it's the pressures of here and me that are driving you to drink. Whilst I disagree with this because you have always drunk, maybe you will be able to stop away from us. Although maybe you don't want to stop. That is your choice.

I have to start a life where I am not consumed by you and your drinking and behaviour. When my first thought even before you come in the door is about how much you have had to drink.

You may still not see you have a problem. That is your prerogative. I can choose though. And it is with sorrow and it is with sadness, but I choose not to live with you anymore.

LALA

That seems a very good Email (once tidy). It is very clear to me just reading that you no longer want or have a relationship with him, and you want it to end now.

I think that by Friday you have a clear idea in you head that he will be gone by say 8th Dec. So he is gone before Christmas (as you have always said it would by Christmas you would make you decision). You don't want him hanging around at what should be a fun time for your DD and your not on tender hooks waiting for him to erupt because he drinking. That will give a couple of weeks to sort yourself and DC out by Christmas, so you are all more settled.

Perhaps even put it in your E mail at date you want him gone.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Wed 28-Nov-12 20:37:33

My god Lala! I don't check in for a few days and I come back and it's all happening!!!! That is a fantastic "from the heart" piece of writing that he needs to read. You are amazing! Keep strong and you can do this. Xx

FiercePanda Wed 28-Nov-12 20:38:25

Lala, your email is heartbreaking. He has put you through too much. You do sound strong and determined, which is fantastic. I really hope he takes notice of what you've said. X

Aussiebean Wed 28-Nov-12 21:23:46

A wonderful letter Lala. Well done on taking this huge step.

My 2p worth would be in regards to the money. Don't say 'maybe' say you 'you have spent x amount that I know of' And who knows how much more that I don't?

If you stick with maybe he can dismiss it because you don't know about all the secret drinking he does. . If you present it as fact it will have more impact.

Good luck xx

AbigailAdams Wed 28-Nov-12 22:16:23

Lala your letter is beautiful. And OK I really don't think the letter is a good idea. At all. If this were a normal reasonable man we were talking about then yes. But we aren't. We are talking about an abusive man.

AbigailAdams Wed 28-Nov-12 22:25:18

So sorry I clicked "post" by accident. So that 2nd sentence doesn't make much sense!

The letter is beautiful and a reflection of you. But please don't give it to him. He will twist it into something it isn't. You say the big hole in your marriage is his alcoholism. But really it his abusiveness. The alcoholism accentuates that but it isn't the cause of it.

I know why you have written the letter and it is a great thing you have, for yourself. But whatever you want from him by giving it to him will not happen.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Wed 28-Nov-12 23:17:32

I think the letter is truthful and says exactly what he needs to hear - I would suggest that you COMPLETLY REFUSE to let him pick it apart or disect it with you - this would allow him to start twisting it and sowing the seeds of doubt in your head. This letter is your Statement of fact. This is YOUR reality and half the problem has been his refusal to acknowledge this reality - he just ignores your experience and wallows I his own mire. He has to accept that this is how you feel - its sometimes hard to hear how our own actions and attitudes have affected other people but this is how it is for you - he needs to hear this and decide how he can alter his behaviour to stop you feeling this way - but as you know he has not been able to do this despite endless opportunities laid out for him by you.

You have decided to end it.
You have written this letter only to inform him of why it is ended - NOT as an opener for further crisis talks.
You require him to leave and need to give a date.

If he wants to throw threats of moving away and going on the dole then just let him. He is trying to call your bluff. " if that's what you feel you have to do then so be it". You have to disconnect emotionally from him now - he is solely responsible for his path - not you. He is going to throw every manipulative trick in the book at you. Emotional blackmail will be his number one trick.

Who is 'worth it' ?? You and the kids not him.

He wants to buy not rent!?!?!?!? Not your problem. He has to deal with being chucked out - go to friends, family - he has to sort it out for himself. He is an adult not a child - he has to make his own way.

RedMolly Thu 29-Nov-12 12:17:24

Hi Lala - sorry i've been a bit preoccupied with ds's birthday. Your letter contains some truly awful details. I also think it would be best not to send it - it is like giving him a roadmap to your most vulnerable points, but if you do then make it very clear that it is not the start of any negotiations, simply a statement of what he's done to you. If he swears he will get professional help to stop drinking this time, then only accept this on the basis that he leaves first - make him prove that he is serious as his words mean absolutely nothing. I think you know that he won't follow through.

You really need to mentally bring down a big security shutter that blocks him out. Don't give him any more power over you.

Hope you are ok lala

LalaDipsey Fri 30-Nov-12 21:45:48

I am a class A chicken. H has come back Acting like everything is fine and I haven't given him the letter tonight.
He hasn't taken me seriously at all has he? About anything?
I am girding my loins. The letter is better. I need it to say it for me, you see, as otherwise it won't get said and day after day will trickle by again. When he's here, face to face, I just become mute.
I need my voice back

Blending Fri 30-Nov-12 22:06:19

At least you are recognising that he is continuing as if nothing has been said. Earlier you would have doubted yourself, and think that he must have got the wrong end of the stick, about what you had discussed.

What does that tell you?
Nothing will change no matter how much you talk.
The time is now for action.
I like the letter, but you need to have a conversation about when he will move out, and the letter should be given after that.

Just be careful that he doesn't try to turn it into a discussion so he can promise the earth or say its given him the kick up the arse he needed.

Actions speak louder than words. You need to take action.

You are a strong person.

NotQuintAtAllOhNo Fri 30-Nov-12 22:14:19

He is not taking you seriously at all. Do you know why that is?

He sees no point. You are all talk and no action.
He knows he can string this along for as many years as he wants to. He knows that all he has to do is to show you a millimeter of kindness every couple of weeks and your resolve weakens. He knows that you wont leave, he knows how scared you are. Of life as a single mum, of feeling a failure, he knows you are scared he wont pay anything towards you and his children, he knows you are scare he will quit work, or do himself in, etc. He knows you worry about this.
He knows that HE has all the power, and you have none.

And this makes him feel strong. Manly. He can do as he damn well pleases, and you can do nowt.

Prove him wrong, LaLa, PLEASE!

FiercePanda Fri 30-Nov-12 23:15:00

For God's sake, Lala. Stop this farce right now. Tell him. Find your voice. Stop the dithering and say it plain - "DH, you've got one/two weeks to find somewhere to live."

Don't ask.

Tell.

You're a grown adult. Act like one. Protect your children and make the break. No one is going to rescue you. This isn't going to just go away. You've got to put your big-girl pants on and get this done. You. On your own, for yourself and your children.

Aussiebean Sat 01-Dec-12 03:13:20

Years ago when a bf broke up with me( not in a similar situation) a friend of mine gave me what I thought was good advice.

I was to tell him when he was going to pick up his stuff. I wasn't to ask I was to tell.

While this is a very different situation I think it still stands. No discussion just 'you will moved out by the 7th of December. Any discussions of our relationship will be done after that date and not before.'

You need to find your own way of saying it. But it must be a statement. Not a question.

Good luck.

Lala

You are a strong person.

You look after 3 children all day everyday, you run your house by yourself.

You can do this. Give him the letter today, give him a bag even if you pack it for him.

Don't do anything for him, his washing he can do.

Once he gone you will have all that wasted time and energy you spend on him you can use for yourself.

I read this saying on another thread 'it's time to put on your adult shoes on'.

Good luck.

FiercePanda Sat 01-Dec-12 09:58:00

wheredidiputit has hit the nail in the head. You ARE strong, far stronger than you realise. You fought so hard to have your babies. You're bringing up three young children single-handedly. You're doing EVERYTHING around the house single-handedly. You are strong.

The more I think about it, the more I realise that your DH is doing his best to convince you that you're weak (and it's working); he knows how strong you are, he sees everything you do and he knows he plays no part in it. He must be terrified of you finding your strength Lala, he knows just how capable you are and that's why he tries to turn everything back on you, to destabilise you, to make you feel weak.

Lala, you're already a single mum, but with the disadvantage of having an alcoholic living in the house like a millstone around your neck. The only thing you have to be scared of is the possibility of being stuck with him for a minute longer.

NotQuintAtAllOhNo Sat 01-Dec-12 10:02:48

Today is December 1st. You started this thread on August 1st.
The title is "Separation and Beyond - Lala goes forth!"

Everytime your thread appears in Active convo I feel compelled to post - against my better judgement - because it is so ironic. You are standing still so slowly, that you dont yourself realize how still you are. You seem to think that you are progressing in leaps and bounds, but the reality that you are standing still, while he keeps changing his game!

When will you change your game?

When will you start going forth ??

zxcv123 Sat 01-Dec-12 17:04:19

Lala - if you don't leave now you never will.

Very unusually, my father is here today. I hardly ever see him. My DCs hardly ever see him. And the reason for that is that for the past 30+ years he has stood by my alcoholic, abusive mother thinking "this time it will be different", "this time she'll get help", "this time she wants to change".

They don't change Lala. You are wasting your life if you think they do.

LalaDipsey Sat 01-Dec-12 19:36:02

I know. The time has come. I will give him the letter - unfortunately not tonight as he went to the pub at 4 and I just got a text saying he would be 'home later as he has met a friend'
I know you don't know me and you don't know how I feel but let me try and explain.
When I asked h for a separation a few months ago you guys were telling me it was the thing to do and so was my mum. I didn't feel it in my bones which is why I didn't follow through.
We have now been through 4 months of counselling and one of the reasons I stepped away from here for a bit was to make my decision - not what your mum or dad or you should have done, not what my mum thinks I should do but what I think and know I should do.
Now my decision is made and I am settled with it I do need your help, and my families, to cheer me on and boost me along.
But my decision is made. I just have to make him realise that.

Completely OT - I downloaded the new iPhone app and it doesn't work?! I have deleted and reinstalled 3x and each time I goto load a conversation it switches off. Anyone else had issues?!

FiercePanda Sat 01-Dec-12 19:49:42

Lala, I know your decision is made - every time you post you sound more resolute and determined, which is great. What worries me is that when you do find your voice, he will steamroll you. You told us yesterday that when he's home, you feel mute. He already knows you want to discuss things with him, but he doesn't believe you mean it, he knows he can avoid it for the whole weekend by going to the pub, getting drunk, then he knows you won't want to talk when he's hungover, so off he'll go to work on Monday and thus the cycle will repeat itself. There is never a right moment for something like this, but now you know your own mind, and know what you want, you've just got to bite the bullet and do it. I'd leave him to his own devices tonight, and do it as soon as he gets up tomorrow morning. "Now you're up, I'm going to tell you how things will be from now on..." Tell him to pack, to get looking for somewhere to live. Tell him to move to his parents' or a friend's place initially, but he needs to be under no illusions that his home is not with you.

You're determined, you know your decision, you can do this. Just don't let him worm his way out of it any longer. xx

here it seems they may be problem with the new app.

LalaDipsey Sat 01-Dec-12 20:09:15

You're right. He will be hungover and stroppy tomorrow. And this will repeat next weekend unless I stop it.

FiercePanda Sat 01-Dec-12 20:24:37

I'm so glad you can see that at last Lala. He's playing you for a fool, and now you know it. He knows you've got this talk looming, and what's he doing? He's out on the piss with a friend.

Get angry, use that anger to find your strength and stand up to him, show him how serious you are and you will not stand for his crap one second more.

Lala

I glad you can see him for what he is.

Can you find 10mins to pack his case/bag for him and give to him along side your letter.

If not please keep a copy of your letter for your own records.

LalaDipsey Sun 02-Dec-12 18:15:18

wheredidi - I can't. He co-owns the house and I won't chuck him put on the street. That doesn't sit right with me. I shall ask him to leave, we shall 'agree' a date for him to find somewhere by and if he doesn't shift on out I shall start divorce proceedings.
Plan is - get dc in bed.
Give him the letter.
Go and hide in the bath with a g&t have a bath.
Come down when he has had half an hour to process and discuss.
Because he drank so much last night (pub 4-11.30) he hasn't started on the alcohol yet tonight so that is good.
Wish me luck!!

Pinkforever Sun 02-Dec-12 18:22:10

Wow is this thread still dragging on?-good luck lala...

Blending Sun 02-Dec-12 18:23:43

Good luck!

MysteriousHamster Sun 02-Dec-12 21:38:37

Good luck Lala. Hopefully you are talking to him about it (or in the bath after), right now.

FiercePanda Mon 03-Dec-12 11:19:18

How did it go last night, Lala?

LalaDipsey Mon 03-Dec-12 13:41:21

Well if this wasn't my life it would be hilarious. He refused to read it. Said 'I'm not reading that tonight. I don't want to talk tonight'
I just wasn't remotely prepared for that.
I went and had my bath. Came down. He had cooked a roast. We ate whilst watching X Factor. Strained. He's working from home today. Still strained.
Do you think he knows what's in it and he doesn't want to face it? Or is he just being a bastard control freak and not wanting to talk when I do?!
So I felt like a numpty really. All psyched up for it. Said 'I'm going to have a bath now so here's this for you to read - I've written down how I feel like I told you I would'. I was shaking. And he threw it down the side of the sofa and said he wouldn't read it now'
I moved it and later on he asked where it was. I said id moved it. He asked why. I said I wanted to know when he was reading it. He said probably Tuesday night (he's away).
I don't think it's a good idea for him to read it when he's away though do you?

MooncupGoddess Mon 03-Dec-12 13:44:40

Gosh Lala, this man's ability to evade and manipulate you is just extraordinary.

I can see why it is important to you to write out your experiences and put in black and white just how much he has hurt you and the DCs... but I wouldn't expect to get much back from him, whenever he reads it (or doesn't read it).

Can you arrange a meeting with a solicitor and get all the legal work of separation under way? He won't be able to evade that.

LalaDipsey Mon 03-Dec-12 13:56:21

I have a solicitor I am really happy with. I am beginning to contemplate getting him involved. If H won't listen to me I won't have a choice

Don't leave it till to tomorrow. He will just throw it away with out reading while he is away.

You need to get angry and show him your anger. Make him read it in front of you. If he refuses turn it back on him. Tell him that he once again you to write down how you feel and he is giving nothing in return.

He doesn't want to read it, because once he does and see you see him for what he is, he won't be able to manipulate you.

Or you could just go to a solicitor and start the legal path to get him out of your home and life.

MaBumble Mon 03-Dec-12 14:05:23

Lala you do not need his permission to divorce.
You have given him the opportunity to read what you needed him to hear. He treated it with contempt. And you.
He knew exactly what was in it. In fact he probably read it while you we're in the bath. He's playing for time so he can figure out how to get the upper hand.
Up to you what you do next. Not us. Not him. You.

Good luck smile

HandbagCrab Mon 03-Dec-12 14:06:51

You poured your heart and soul out to him on paper. You put your heart on that paper.

He threw it down the seatee and refused to even look at it.

I think that sums up your relationship from what you've written here lala. Kick him out and pour your love into people and things that are going to appreciate you.

How could he possibly come back from this?

LalaDipsey Mon 03-Dec-12 14:08:05

Hi it was in a sealed envelope so he hasn't read it.
One thing I fail to understand in all of this is where my anger is. My mum and my friend have both said to various things 'if he was my h I would knock his block off/go mad' etc
I don't know why I can't get angry

You've been trained by him for years to not get angry with him.

It only now you have you're children you can see him for the man he is.

LalaDipsey Mon 03-Dec-12 14:42:37

wheredidi I start the freedom programme in January - will that he'll do you think?
handbag that's exactly it! I spent 3 days on that letter then agonised over giving it in the right way and he shat all over it!

LalaDipsey Mon 03-Dec-12 15:10:01

Will that help that should have said!

I hope it will help, Lala, but throughout this long thread you have been looking for a hero to save you from this marriage. You hoped the counsellor would call it abusive and tell you to leave. You wondered if your family would do something. Now you're hoping the letter will do it.

The thing is, there's no caped crusader coming to whirl you away from this shitty situation. No Dumbledore who is going to wave a wand and say: you must go now, you have permission to leave.

You have to be the hero you need. You have to do all the long, hard slog of a divorce. You have to go, or throw him out, and risk being cast as the baddie. You have to stop caring what others thing and start caring about what you know: that he is a vile, abusive drunk who doesn't care about you and is a threat to the happiness and potentially health of you and your children.

YOU have to be the hero. No one is coming to save you. You have to do it.

i'm really, really, really sorry that this is true. But it is. Only you can save yourself and your children. No one else. So how long all this goes on for, is really up to you. I wish I could wave a wand or dispatch ALL of the Avengers to do it for you - but I can't. Only you can save you and your children from this situation. Only you can give yourself permission to end it. Only you can get out of this.

I really hope that the freedom programme will prove that you have done everything and more to make your marriage work, and that there is nothing more you can do.

And even more so that your husband is nothing more then a bully.

MysteriousHamster Mon 03-Dec-12 16:23:30

Have you got copies of the letter? He doesn't have the only copy of that final version, I mean? Otherwise he might try to destroy it.

That response tells you everything.

He's a coward unfortunately and an avoider of anything remotely difficult.

He doesn't want to face it, so he's choosing not to.

I think you've been brave in getting to this point and it sounds like it might get harder. I know you don't want to chuck him out - so what happens when he won't go? Is this when the solicitor comes in handy?

FiercePanda Mon 03-Dec-12 17:06:35

Lala, I'm am so angry for you, and I can't even begin to imagine how hurt you must be, having seen yet again the contempt and disgust he has for you and your marriage.

He is absolutely playing for time, trying to think of a way to lure you back in or keep you guessing. It's been strained today, you said. What's the bets tomorrow he'll either be horrible to you to keep you on edge, or (and this is where my money lies), he'll be 100% Disney Dad/Husband, playing with the kids and making an effort with you, to make you say "just forget reading that letter, it doesn't matter" trying as you do to keep the peace, not upset the apple cart, keep him sweet. It's not a criticism - I know just how much you've wanted your marriage to be successful, and how much you want him to change and be the husband and father you believed he'd be. He just can't stop letting you down though, he can't help himself. You know, I think he's enjoying himself. Seeing how emotional he can make you, how he can make any situation on edge, and then how he can change it all with just a meagre effort, like clearing up toys or playing with your DD.

You've tried everything. It's time to bring the solicitors in. He can't ignore legal proceedings.

LalaDipsey Mon 03-Dec-12 17:30:06

Yes, I did the letter on the pc and printed it off for him so I have a copy.
blackcurrant you are spot on. Thankyou. I know. I need to find my big girls pants from somewhere!

LalaDipsey Mon 03-Dec-12 17:32:45

Thankyou Panda. yes he's been helpful today even though es working from home (well more helpful than usual) in fact - brace yourselves he even CHANGED A NAPPY!.
he really is bringing in the big guns!!
Thankfully he's away tomorrow and Wednesday so I need to try and say something tonight and then I get 2 day peace!

FiercePanda Mon 03-Dec-12 17:46:10

^yes he's been helpful today even though es working from home (well more helpful than usual) in fact - brace yourselves he even CHANGED A NAPPY!.
he really is bringing in the big guns!!^

SWEET LORD ABOVE. Is he feeling well? Has he strained himself with the gargantuan effort of swapping a dirty nappy for a clean nappy? Perhaps he needs a lie down... wink

He's really, really, really predictable now Lala. The second you show any sign of strength or rebellion, he puts on a big show of being helpful around the house. He'll be back on Thursday, back to drinking and moodiness and being an arse, I bet, and he'll be sure you'll be too unnerved to confront him.

Love, you've been posting these threads for almost a year, and from the beginning all you've wanted is for him to sit down and have an honest discussion with you, and for him to listen - really listen to how you feel - and try to change his behaviour. He's never bothered. The time for talking things through is over - god, it was over six months ago. Now's the time to be your own hero, to give yourself the permission you've been seeking all this time. You've got to take control of your own life, once and for all.

well Lala if you put them on over your tights, you'll be pre-dressed as the Hero that I know you are, deep down! grin

You can do it. You don't want to, it's not fair that you have to, etc etc.
But you can.

You can leave this nasty, cruel, selfish, abusive drunk and raise your children without the shadow of his neglect or outright violence. All three of you can be happy, free from him.

You can do it.

SecrectFarleysNibbler Mon 03-Dec-12 17:57:31

Good God! What an arse he really is!! This is just another demonstration of him having control over you - he is making YOU WAIT until he is good and ready to look at the this letter. His casual dismissal of it is him saying, " I know this letter is important to you but I m not going to take it or you seriously".

I would take it as job done - don't let him dictate the timeline here, don't WAIT until Tuesday - you know he will just find another reason not to read it. Tomorrow morning I would calmly TELL him that you are making an appointment to see the solicitor to start proceedings. Don't get into a discussion. If he says" okay I will read the letter" then calmly inform him that the opportunity for that or for taking any of this seriously is now past. I would say that he is welcome to read the letter if he wishes but that it is pretty irrelevant to you if he does or he doesn't as he has clearly demonstrated how unimportant that letter was to him.

Have you got it electronically? You could always email it to him at a later date. I would also leave the copy you have in a prominent place for him to access but I would make no mention of it again.

You can't get angry because that would mean a confrontation and I am sure that deep down you know you are scared of him and his reaction. He has made you compliant and biddable to him. You have to realise that you need nothing from him to move this forward - you are absolutely free to just walk away and never have to speak to him again if you don't want to. This does not need a 'conversation' or a confrontation for it to be over - it just needs you to physically do it.

secret has a point.

You need to pack a bag and leave. Or pack his bags and lock the door (then call the police).

That's it.

Here's what I suspect: I think he knows. I think he knows just about everything that is in your letter. I just don't think he cares. And to show you how little he cares, he does nothing.

But that's okay, because you don't need him to care. You don't need him to agree that this marriage is over, that he's been appalling, that you deserve better. You don't need his help or permission. You can just pack a bag, bundle up your children, and GO. Or even better, pack his and tell him to go. You can do that. You don't need him to agree. You just need to DO IT.

FiercePanda Mon 03-Dec-12 18:29:43

This does not need a 'conversation' or a confrontation for it to be over - it just needs you to physically do it.

I agree with everything Secret and Blackcurrants have said. He knows every word of what's in your letter, Lala. He may be cruel, but he's not stupid, he can't not know how he's made you feel. He simply doesn't care. He doesn't believe that your needs and feelings are important enough to warrant any sort of reaction or effort to change from him. He is the king of his castle, and you and the children are part of the furniture, little annoyances that get in the way of his one true joy - alcohol.

The time for conversation, for "talking things through", for getting things sorted out is over, Lala. He's never going to give you the time or attention you want to discuss your marriage. It's not important to him. You have got to get things started and you do not need his permission to do so. You don't. No-one is holding this back but yourself. I know you'll come back with "but it doesn't feel right/he should be able to have a say in the decision" - love, his "say" is his apathy, his ignorance, his contempt of you, your children, your marriage. He's taking action by being a colossal fuckwit. You're the only one standing still, waiting for something intangible to come along and sort things out for you or to tell you explicitly that you're allowed to leave him. You're an adult, you are allowed to leave this relationship. Do it.

scarletforya Mon 03-Dec-12 18:30:29

Lala, the situation with the letter is like a microcosm of the whole relationship. You pour blood, sweat and tears into it and he casually dismisses it. It's as simple as this. He doesn't care.

He. Doesn't. Care.

You keep waiting and waiting for the right time to have this conversation, get his feedback, his explanation, his proposal for the future, his answer, his input....

It's never coming. The future is this. This is it. This is all he has. He isn't going to co-operate or help with the breakup any more than he did with the marriage. I had a similar situation with an ex (also an alcoholic) and it took me some time to realise this. It doesn't matter what you say, what you write. He doesn't want to hear it. Look at his actions, or rather lack of action to see the truth.

There is nothing coming. He has nothing for you. You're jigging around trying to elicit a reaction, co-operation, something, anything but it will always be 'mañana, mañana' with him. It's the only card he has to play and he will play it as long as you let him. He doesn't want the current situation to end, why would he?

He'll never have it this good again and he knows that. If he can keep stringing you along, he will. Forever.

Gennz Mon 03-Dec-12 20:46:02

Lala – I just wanted to say – you’ve bent over backwards to treat him fairly: “no I won’t kick him out, he co-owns the house, that doesn’t sit right with me”, “I won’t get my parents round while I end my marriage, I am an adult, I need to do it myself.” I can understand why, it’s because you are a decent, fair person, and if you are ending your marriage you want to give him some dignity.

The problem is, he’s neither decent nor fair, so he won’t engage with you when you try to act decently. So you end up on the back foot. I really urge you to get a support team round (i.e. your parents) so that they can back you up while you end it. It will be much easier for you to find your voice when you have them there willing you on.

The fact that a father of three small children changing one nappy is worthy of comment is just gobsmacking. You deserve much better.

LittleChristmasBearPad Mon 03-Dec-12 21:32:53

Lala - I have lurked on your threads for months now. Please tell him to go, pack a bag for him if need be. Don't wait for him to talk to you, he never will. You deserve better but as Blackcurrants says you need to do this, no one else can do it for you and your children. Please Lala

beakysmum Mon 03-Dec-12 21:35:34

Your DH's behaviour is disgusting.

I am still lurking, still willing you on.

Just emotionally cut him out of your life now, Lala. What he does from today onwards is up to him, it's no longer a part of you. Don't wait for responses from him about anything, just get on and live YOUR life, the rest of your life. x

LalaDipsey Mon 03-Dec-12 21:52:17

It's done woo hoo!! Gosh I feel relieved.
All quite calm. Talked finances a bit (although he wants to know too much!). Where he would move to.
All my fault of course - shutting him out and driving him to drink but...
I think it's done this time. I think he gets it. As long as I keep mentioning it I think it'll sink in
And all after he came and bathed the children with me for the first time ever!

Doha Mon 03-Dec-12 21:57:43

WHERE he goes is no your problem but WHEN he goes definately is.
Strike while the iron is hot and get him out asap. He may have "got it" but he seems to still be playing dad of the year. I wouldn't be surprised if he still hopes it will blow over in the next few days.
Any chance of him staying away when he goes away tomorrow?

scarletforya Mon 03-Dec-12 22:16:37

Lala, good but for it to be 'done', he has to physically go. Tomorrow. Don't get involved in where he goes, that's his problem. Just insist he has to go, immediately. No more of his delaying tactics.

FiercePanda Mon 03-Dec-12 22:36:12

Lala, well done. You've taken a huge step tonight, a big step in the right direction. Keep the momentum going, get papers drawn up with solicitor, find out your rights and what you're entitled to because your H certainly won't tell you or make anything easier for you and the kids. Can you get some RL support, family maybe? Be kind to yourself, keep the momentum going and don't let things slip back into the old routine (he'll be hoping to come home as normal on Thursday - make sure there's a paper with the flats to rent section waiting for him).

You should be proud of yourself Lala, you're taking charge of your life at last. smile

LalaDipsey Tue 04-Dec-12 06:55:43

My solicitor said the best thing would be to ask him for copies of his latest bank statements and payslips in order to work out finances, but H hasn't clicked that there's no way I'd ask to separate without knowing my rights doesn't know I've already seen 2 and spoken to a further 2 on the phone one.
So, what will make H realise I'm serious is me to have a solicitors appt booked for next week to draw up separation agreement, and ask him for his bank statements and payslips.
I can't go this week as I can't sort childcare but I should be able to next week.
We have to sort how much money he gives me before he knows how much he has available to rent although of course he could afford somewhere bigger or nicer if he didn't piss and smoke so much up the wall!
He won't stay here, he will move 30-50 minutes away to where he has lived before.
We talked for about an hour last night - mainly finances/practicalities/blaming me for everything. Not once did he ask about arrangements to see the dc or access. Not once

SecrectFarleysNibbler Tue 04-Dec-12 07:24:52

Lala - WELL DONE! That is the worst over with. It is incredible that he blames you - it is beyond reason - you have SUFFERED on your own bringing up three little ones who had to be your priority and SHOULD have been his. DO NOT LISTEN TO HIS ROT - because that is what it is is ... rot... designed to nibble away at you until you give in. He is a grown man who has been making HIS choices through all of this. HE embraced the drinking and chose to deal with his own inabilities by using this crutch rather than using a perfectly good partnership to help him him cope. YOU MUST shut your ears to this drivel.

But again - well done you! This shows what a strong and capable woman you are - the world is your oyster now.......

Sending much love and support as it is possible to do in this online environment!!!!

Aussiebean Tue 04-Dec-12 07:34:44

Well done Lala. But I would go through the paperwork while he is away and get together as much financial paperwork as you can. Just in case he tries to hide the information.

Make sure you get his pension details as well

FiercePanda Tue 04-Dec-12 07:42:25

He's just too predictable. Blaming you, not bothering to ask about access... What a piece of work he is. Totally agree with getting all your paperwork together (birth certs, passports, medical books, bank statements) for your own peace of mind. If he keeps paper statements, photocopy them (6 months worth? A years?), he could make this difficult for you if you wait for him to provide them.

This is the first day of the rest of your life, Lala. It'll be tough at times, but worth it.

LalaDipsey Tue 04-Dec-12 08:15:11

Paperwork already boxed and at my friends. I have managed to scan one bank statement and one payslip of his, plus his recent contract with pay rise details on. I do need up to date bank statements and payslips if possible whilst he is away.
I have no idea where his pension details are.

Well do Lala.

Sorry try again.

Well done Lala. The worst bit done.

Oh well done Lala!

The sooner he's out the better. If he wants to continue drinking then that is his choice but he won't be dragging you all down with him.
And doesn't the fact he hasn't asked once about the children and access tell you all you need to know about his selfishness.

Here's hoping he's out before Christmas and if he isn't, get legal advice and stay with family so you get a decent festive period . He probably still thinks you will go back to doing what you have been doing all year. Being properly apart may help him grow up.

oh bravo, Lala the hero!

Tell your family that it's over and he's moving out. Make it public so that (1) you get the support you need and (2) he can't weasel his way into ignoring what you say, do, and feel like he usually does.

Oh well done!

hillyhilly Tue 04-Dec-12 13:21:54

Well done Lala, keep up the momentum now! You will be so much more settled without him.

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Tue 04-Dec-12 13:24:10

Well done lala. You cannot even begin to imagine how happy I am to see this development. smile

LalaDipsey Tue 04-Dec-12 14:08:02

Gosh I'm so glad you've all posted. Was having a wobble!
H just left, huge hug, I had a few tears and he said 'there's got to e another way. I'm not leaving until you kick me out! In going to keep trying to change your mind'
I said 'I don't think you can' (note to self - not assertive enough!)
Anyway he's gone and asked for the letter to read whilst he's away. At least that will make it clear to him.
Last night he kept saying I had shut him out and I hadn't got a decent reply for him then. Today I keep thinking 'well you were a drunken abusive twat of course I shut you out! You ranted at me for 10 minutes for being a 'fucking useless cow' because you were too pissed to find your toothbrush when we were on holiday. The next night I had moved it into plain view and so got ranted at again for moving the toothbrush!' and by ranted I mean 'you fucking stupid bitch. Where the fuck is the fucking toothbrush? Can't you fucking put anything anywhere? Fucking cow' etc etc repeat ad infinitum.

My letter doesn't say any of that because I'd forgotten it. Most of it really. It's just coming back to me in kind of flashbacks at the moment.

He hasn't been like that for months though. But he's still been drunk. And useless.

It's over. <breathes sigh of relief>
and it's ok for me to grieve for the end of my marriage and the family I so so wanted. But I have my amazing children and nothing can take them away from me grin

Lala

We will be here to support you, hold your hand whenever you need us.

When he starts again and he will, keep repeating to him that it to late and you won't discuss it other then to talk about the practical matters re the divorce and children.

AbigailAdams Tue 04-Dec-12 14:33:00

Oh Lala well done you! He is still trying to pull a fast one isn't he. Making it as difficult as possible. Everything he is doing is abusive at the moment. He isn't doing the whole "I'm not leaving until you kick me out!" because he is particularly distraught but to make it harder for you. He won't stop with the manipulation.

And the account of the toothbrush is heart-breaking. Really nasty awful stuff. Keep remembering this stuff when you waver. Keep reading this thread.

Repeat: He is a controlling, manipulative, drunken abuser.

Even if he sobers up he will still be a controlling manipulative abuser.

Well done resisting the wobble! It is absolutely okay to grieve the end of the marriage and the family you so wanted, but remember, it's all on him. He was the abusive drunk (who sounds worse and worse the more you let yourself remember, tbh) and he was the one who wouldn't listen, or change. He's not good enough for the marriage or family you want and deserve, Lala, and you and your children deserve better.

He's a useless drunk. Drunks can't be trusted to do anything but get drunk and destroy things. Don't trust him, don't give him any more chances, if he says "I won't go until you kick me out" then take him at his word and kick him out.

And tell your family, please, if you think they're not the 'stick together whatever happens' type. You need to tell someone - a supportive friend, your mum - because you need back up, now, to make it actually happen.

FiercePanda Tue 04-Dec-12 17:12:36

He won't leave unless you kick him out, eh? Looks like you'll have to take him at his word. He's goading you, he doesn't think you're being serious about the separation. I bet he thinks you're going to spend the next couple of days distraught and thinking you've made a terrible mistake, and when he strolls in on Thursday you'll be weeping at his feet, begging him to stay. Silly man.

You've got two days of peace and space now, make the most of it. Please please please tell your family and friends - make it real. It's too easy to keep it inside your four walls, like a bubble, but if this is going to happen and if he's ever going to realise you really do mean business, your families have got to know. His family is his responsibility, but please do tell yours. You will need their love and support, especially if when he turns nasty.

If you feel a wobble coming on - post here! Just because you've taken this huge step doesn't mean we're all going to go "oh well done Lala, byeeee!". grin You're at the beginning of a long road, but you are not on your own.

LalaDipsey Tue 04-Dec-12 18:18:08

My mum & dad know. I'm seeing two good friends tomorrow night, so they will know and another good friend reads this so she will know.
Feel like a bit of a hypocrite though as I will be having a large glass of wine tonight!

Lala

There is nothing wrong with having a 'large' glass of wine once in a while, as you know.

Enjoy yourself tomorrow, your deserve it.

AndMiffyWentToSleep Tue 04-Dec-12 19:35:58

Well done, Lala! I've been lurking in several of your threads - couldn't add any advice better than you were getting already.

So glad you've done it! But also sad for you that your marriage didn't work out as you'd hoped - you are definitely entitled to grieve for that...just remember how much easier it'll be now you no longer have to tread on eggshells all the time.

Well done again!

mathanxiety Tue 04-Dec-12 19:48:48

Hello again Lala - sorry I have been MIA on this thread.

Needless to say this is all good news and I hope you enjoy your glass of wine.

The next bit will be starting to pack his belongings and backing up the hard drive - get an external hard drive and back up everything from your computers. You never know what 'accident' might befall your financial records/pension and mortgage info otherwise. Don't underestimate this man's ability to turn his self pity into a plan of action. He has already hinted that he would make you all destitute by going on the dole. That wasn't playing nice.

I think your H is probably poring over your letter right now, looking for a foot in the door again. Now that you have spoken, do not repeat yourself or answer any more questions or comments of his unless they are about when and where he will be moving to. Anything else (blaming you, pouring scorn on your feelings, etc) gets the response 'I'm sorry you feel that way'.

I still feel you need to get your parents involved in finding him a list of possible cheap bedsits to move to and pinning him down to a specific date within a certain timeframe depending on availability for occupancy of the cheapest possible place. It might speed things up somewhat to have the third party involved, and the new Thinking Only Of Her Own Convenience And Peace Of Mind Lala needs to see things less from the pov of the H's dignity or wounded pride and more of her own need to get this all cleared up and settled asap. No matter what the situation is wrt financial support, the cheapest bedsit is the place to start for him. He can trim his sails afterwards according to the wind but there is logically no other place to go but the cheapest place.

He will try delaying discussion and evading the issue of a date and destination, and he will make himself 'unavailable for comment' by drinking as he has done up to now (deliberately I think). Do not underestimate his capacity for just digging in his heels, folding his arms and effectively saying 'Make me' when push comes to shove. That is why you need backup imo. Maybe rope in his sister who seemed to be making sympathetic noises earlier. It would be harder for him to brazenly deny reality if he was dealing with people other than you. (Not a damning comment about you but more a comment on the dynamic that he has created here).

mathanxiety Tue 04-Dec-12 19:55:43

Denying reality = insisting that your feelings don't matter. It would be very hard for him to do this if there are others present who take your feelings seriously and expect him to.

He has got away with this for a long, long time and I think he knows what he has been doing, hence the birthday gesture on your birthday.

LalaDipsey Tue 04-Dec-12 20:05:55

Hi math
Heehee <evil chuckle!> I have already backed up my pc onto an external hard drive and stashed the hard drive at a friends!
I know what you mean about involving his sister. It makes sense I just don't know if I can do it. If he would only say a little something to her to start it off I'd happily 'fill in the blanks' with her but I speak to her so rarely I just don't feel right (yet) calling her out of the blue.
I have managed to get Octobers payslip scanned tonight but he hasn't opened his bank statement so I couldn't get that.
Wine is going down nicely! Am soooo tired, I was so shouty and snappy with ddddc this evening - mixture of screamy DTs and poorly DD plus stressed me! Thankyou for keeping me going thanks

FiercePanda Tue 04-Dec-12 20:14:36

I'm off for an early night tonight - shattered! Was up from 12:30am-3am because of my painkillers' side effects, grr. Hope you're enjoying your peace and quiet and your wine - you deserve it! I absolutely love that you have a lot of the important stuff stashed at your friend's house too! grin Have a cosy evening, try to sleep well and I hope tomorrow is the first of many happy days for you and DC. thanksthanksthanks

SecrectFarleysNibbler Tue 04-Dec-12 21:18:59

Lala - great to see such support from total strangers - did you get a micro inch of such support from him when you needed it??? No! Imagine a pair of scales and honestly dump the good and the bad on to it - what do you see??

LittleChristmasBearPad Wed 05-Dec-12 00:06:53

Well done Lala. You will do great. Hope you enjoyed the wine.

Just came on to say goodnight/good morning, Lala, and I hope you had a good night's sleep. Keep on keeping on, and I think math 's plan for getting your parents onside to help him move out will be immeasurably helpful for helping YOU move on.
He will drag his heels, whine, cry, shout, threaten, and do all he can to make this horrible for you. Be prepared, be steely, and be the hero!

LalaDipsey Wed 05-Dec-12 07:08:33

The wine was lovely, but one normal sized glass was all I could manage! smile
so, when H arrived at his destination yday I got a lovely text from him, hoping we were all ok, saying he'd left me some cash in the kitchen, and that he hadn't read the letter yet... So no meltdown yet!...'
I texted back I would wait for the meltdown and nothing since...
In a way it's good he hasn't immediately either started a counter attack or something but I hate the no reaction.
Oh well, I guess I just have to hope it sinks in. I keep wondering if it will trigger memories of how he felt about his father and whether that's a good or bad thing?

Morning Lala

It doesn't matter if it does trigger memories of his father for him, it not an excuse to treat you and your dc badly. Many people have bad childhood and still able to be good parents.

FiercePanda Wed 05-Dec-12 08:17:24

when H arrived at his destination yday I got a lovely text from him, hoping we were all ok, saying he'd left me some cash in the kitchen, and that he hadn't read the letter yet... So no meltdown yet!...'
I texted back I would wait for the meltdown and nothing since...
In a way it's good he hasn't immediately either started a counter attack or something but I hate the no reaction.

Remember, this is all premeditated. He knows exactly what he's doing, he knows that by giving you no reaction to your letter you'll be left guessing, your imagination will go wild and when he gets back on Thursday you'll be so keen to know his reaction that you'll not want to discuss his move. He may even be happy to have yet another long convoluted talk about HIS feelings, HIS reaction to your letter, how HE feels he treated you, how HE feels he was treated by you... hmm Anything to avoid getting the separation finalised.

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Wed 05-Dec-12 09:46:34

Please use the next few days to get the divorce papers sorted so you can get on with getting a settlement, before he becomes too bitter.

NoWayNoHow Wed 05-Dec-12 09:49:10

YY to what "FiercePanda* said, lala.

Every single move of his is (as it ALWAYS has been) totally calculated to keep on the back foot and keep you guessing.

What he thinks of the letter is totally and utterly irrelevant. You've made your feelings known, and that's most important thing.

Stop waiting for him to understand how you feel and magically come to his senses. It ain't going to happen.

Finalise everything while he's gone, take your important documents to a solicitor, scan everything you can get your hands on, and finalise a date (WITHOUT YOUR H's PERMISSION) for him to move out. Preferably before Christmas otherwise he will ruin yet another one for you and your DC.

Yes. I think you need to make plans for Christmas now. I'd go to your mum's or maybe someone could come to stay. Otherwise this will just drag on, he will drink himself stupid on the sofa and you will be running round doing everything. He can go and stay with family and you can arrange a meet up to see the children.

He will be assuming that things will go on as normal over Christmas. By making definite arrangements this will prove to him you are serious more than any e mail, letter or counselling.

Oh god yes, get him out before Christmas, or he will be making you as unhappy as he possibly can and using the holiday as an excuse to get wankered.

His reaction doesn't matter, Lala - you've made your decision. Now use this time as a respite from his manipulation, and get a plan together to get him OUT!

hillyhilly Wed 05-Dec-12 13:46:04

Echoing the good advice you've been given that he needs to leave before Christmas. You do not deserve to spend your and your children's Christmas watching and worrying about his alcohol intake, which will be excessive "because its Christmas" and you do not deserve to be made to feel like a nag, misery or controlling cow for daring to suggest that he should not get pissed. Alternatively, he could use the opportunity to play Disney dad, which is manipulative of your children
You all deserve better

Glad you've taken action Lala.

"Fucking useless cow." shock

Why can't you get angry with him? Is it self-preservation do you think - that he'd kick off even more if you did?

LalaDipsey Wed 05-Dec-12 17:40:31

There's probably some self preservation there - but it's like the 'anger switch' has been turned off and I can't access that emotion.
I and dc are going to mum's for Christmas. He can come if he likes but that's what I'm doing - and we shall probably stay a couple of nights. Should he want to stay he can - on the dining room floor! I very much doubt he will but, on the other hand, going to his sisters without us may be something he doesn't want to do either.
By the time he's back this week, it's less than 3 weeks til Xmas and it's DTs birthday just before. I'm not chucking him out before then. He is working very hard, is away all next week and he has very little time to look. January is fine by me - I would like him gone by the end of Jan at the latest.

Glad you have plans for christmas Lala. As you say if he away for most of the week until christmas you won't have to see him anyway.

Give him a date to be sorted and gone by.

It will be much easier for you to cope now you have a timeline in mind.

zxcv123 Wed 05-Dec-12 21:50:18

Hurrah! I'm so relieved you've finally done it, Lala.

The business with encouraging you to put your feelings in a letter and then refusing to read it is perverse...texting you to say he hasn't read it yet is even more perverse...but as others have said: it really shouldn't matter to you anymore. Whether he reads it or not, understands it or not, wants to debate it or not, is a waste of time at this point.

Keep focussed on your goal of a happy life for you and the DCs & make sure you don't use up any of your mental strength and energy focussed instead on him. Probably for the first time in a long time in your relationship, you are in the driving set now - so use that power and keep the momentum up. A solicitor working on a draft divorce petition during December would be a good start. Telling him he needs to have found himself another place to stay (even if it is just a temporary place) by a particular date in January would be another good step in the right direction. Keep it moving. Your H has a lot to win by simple inertia. You don't want him dragging his heels for the next six months.

MrsTomHardy Wed 05-Dec-12 23:44:45

The end of January.......seriously??????
You're not going to make him leave are you!!!

mathanxiety Thu 06-Dec-12 00:21:33

Perverse is exactly the word for someone who says the main issue is communication yet refuses to read the letter or listen to the words someone else is saying...

My guess is he had read the letter all the same. I would bet money on it and he is just playing games with you.

High fives to you Lala, for taking the initiative wrt the computer, and I urge you to get some sort of potential accommodation list together to present to him when you deliver the news about his departure date. It will be up to him to get somewhere sorted once he knows when you expect his to leave. However, again, I think you will need reinforcements to impress upon him the necessity of actually leaving.

Stockholmsyndrome Thu 06-Dec-12 02:40:44

Lala, i've often thought about contributing to your thread. What has stopped me is I'm not confident that I can properly articulate what i went through, what I want to express to you. I don't know if I can but I will try.

I've been EXACTLY where you are now. To other people it looks like slow motion, and it is. My abusive ex is SO LIKE your DH. Intertia, non-action, non-reaction, death by a thousand cuts. I can't actually

Stockholmsyndrome Thu 06-Dec-12 03:06:55

sorry, posted too soon. I can't actually articulate how similar my ex was. Deeply manipulative, as I now know. How you focus on his (non)reaction and (non) feedback. I agonised over it. For YEARS. Unlike you I wasted all my fertile years on the man, thank God you have your children.

I still don't have words that can explain how brainwashed I was, everything that happened I tried to be fair. He had me believe he was the hard-done-by one. He begged, manipulated, MADE me stay, TRY to make it all right. It was all a waste of time.

It took me actual YEARS to leave him. Yes, Years. If you ask me how long the relationship was, it was actually longer 'breaking up' than the whole relationship. He damaged me very badly Lala. Like you, I always accounted for, he needs time to find somewhere, work is so busy, he has no money, no friends, no means, yada, yada, yada.

In the end, after about 2 or 3 years I got out. It took me so long to see he didn't give a shit. I was shocked in the end how quick he moved on when it came down to it. There wasn't a bother on him. He played the victim/martyr to the end. To the end Lala, and all that I gave him was my TIME. Like you are giving him your childrens time. Like you it was always Christmas, or some other occasion, as it turned out, his work connections allowed him to start a new life in a moment. He had a backup plan all along, while I agonised in guilt.

I thought all out mutual friends would think I was a bitch, casting him out for nothing, but as it turned out even his own friends wondered what took me so long. It was one of his friends who 'jokingly' said I must have had Stockholm syndrome

I laughed, but actually he wasn't wrong. You get so used to surviving the impossible, being treated like shit that it actually becomes a weird source of pride. You feel responsible for the fucked up persons wellbeing that it becomes automatic! AUTOMATIC!

THANK GOD! I got awy, I met a wonderful man and now have a baby, against all the odds. My ex didn't want kids and nearly pissed all my fertile years away. Lala, what I want to say to you is this. Your childrens precious years will only happen once, this man will squander it all. Destroy it all, he doesn't care about them. You need to realise it's YOU that can save them from his abuse and disrespect. It's your responsibility. You keep wondering what his reaction will be.....you need to stop that. He doesn't give a fuck, your childrens golden years can NOT be wasted. Please don't waste any more time prevaricating, he should NOT be welcome at your parents at Christmas. Now is as good a time as any. Late January is no different till now, twins Birthday should be celebrated with JOY, FREEDOM and SPONTANEITY! not with false duty to their brooding, miserable, resentful 'Father'.

Anyway, get rid of the fucker. You really won't believe how little he gives a shit and how all your care and consideration is really just pearls before swine. No more wasted time Lala. For your children.

Stockholmsyndrome Thu 06-Dec-12 03:26:26

Sorry, just thought I better clear up what I meant, when I say it took me 2/3 years to get out, I mean 2/3 years from the point you are at now. Where I thought I could include him in the process/be fair/where he would be mutually part of it. Well, it was a total farce, he strung me along and was totally unreasonable about everything until I realised I actually had to play legal hardball with him to physically escape.

Once I did that things actually moved. The whole relationship was nearly 20 years but it took me about 5 years to break up with him. He did not take me seriously at all, no matter what I said I had to actually get legal with him before he moved. I met him at a party recently and he acted like I was his 'long-lost-love' -it made me want to vomit and I RAN home to my NORMAL man and gorgeous baby!

Please Lala, get the fuck out of there.

mathanxiety Thu 06-Dec-12 04:41:52

What incredible, mind blowing, powerful posts.

You really won't believe how little he gives a shit and how all your care and consideration is really just pearls before swine. No more wasted time Lala. For your children.

LalaDipsey Thu 06-Dec-12 07:16:28

Thankyou for sharing that. Very helpful. I can completely see what you mean - you have articulated very well.
I heed to make a solicitors appt for next week and get a fixed date in my head. 20th Jan.
He's read the letter now - says he's bruised & battered. I said it wasn't written to hurt him, I just started writing how I felt and it all came out. He sent back 'good for you?'
Now, whilst I get he is 'bruised & battered', that letter was in the main how he made me feel. no mention of that is there? No 'oh my goodness Lala, that has really hurt me but gosh I hadn't realised my behaviour/drinking affected you like that. I am so sorry'
Just about him. As you said! Which is good really.
MrsTomHardy - I have to start off being reasonable. We don't have loads of money, Xmas is almost here, I have to live with my decisions. I don't think it's fair, after living together for 16 yrs to say 'get out now'. We co-own the house and legally I can't make him go, so I am glad he is agreeing to as if he put his foot down I'd be stuck!

"he's bruised & battered" hmm

After all he's done to you? What a nerve he's got to say that to you!

RedMolly Thu 06-Dec-12 10:33:32

I wasn't going to post anymore as you didn't seem to want to hear what i had to say, but just wanted to add two things.

Really happy you are taking these steps, and i hope you don't allow his lack of cooperation to put the breaks on the progress you're making. I hope you now stop doing stuff for him, and start separating your lives on a practical level.

SS - you've managed to say everything i've been trying to (though from the pov of child rather than partner), but for more effectively. So glad you have got the life you deserve now.

AbigailAdams Thu 06-Dec-12 11:24:28

Really Lala stop trying to be "fair". Your version of fair and his version differ wildly. He doesn't understand fair unless fair means he gets to do what he wants to do. He is agreeing now, but when the time comes you may have a problem getting him out and then you'll see what the rest of the women on here are talking about. If you get an opportunity to get him out take it. Otherwise he will regroup and it will be twice as hard the next time.

This man is abusive. You cannot have a mutually amicable break up with an abusive man.

Let it go. Stop feeling responsible for his feelings. He has put himself in this position, not you.

FiercePanda Thu 06-Dec-12 12:43:29

Your version of fair and his version differ wildly. He doesn't understand fair unless fair means he gets to do what he wants to do. [...] Let it go. Stop feeling responsible for his feelings. He has put himself in this position, not you.

I have to highlight this, it is so so so true. He's not living on the same planet as you Lala (god, not even the same universe) regarding fairness, equality, decency etc. I know it's in your nature to be accommodating, fair, willing to see things from both sides and come to a mutual agreement but it's not in his nature, and he won't do it. It's not part of his language, he doesn't want to understand what you're trying to do, and he sure as hell won't show any fairness or compassion to you when the time comes.

I agree with having a date to be out by, but I worry that he'll ignore it. How often has he actually listened to something you've said, paid attention, and done what's been asked of him? Never. Please don't expect him to suddenly change for the better now, just because you're going to tell him he's got until the 20th. I will bet my last £ that unless you have family and legal back-up, he'll be sat on his arse in your house on the 21st, drinking and smirking.

You have got to put yourself and DCs first in all situations from now on and IGNORE his emotional blackmail. He's coming back today, isn't he? Whatever he says, no matter how hurtful he is, let it wash right over you and don't show any emotion. Respond with a pithy "I'm sorry that's how you feel. I'm not discussing it anymore" and leave the room. Do not engage him in any way, unless it's about when he's leaving. He'll be wanting confirmation that he's still the one in control. The only way you can prove he's not is by not letting him press your buttons, and not getting into any form of discussion about his feelings/needs/desires/problems etc. All you need to talk about is when he's moving.

Thinking of you, Lala. x

Your scummyH is going to come back from this letter in one of two ways, I predict. Either it will be ALL about his emotions, how he feels, how it's your fault and he's so sad boo hoo hoo.

OR he will be oddly flippant and extremely good with the kids, for about half a breath, but for long enough to leave your brain whirling.

Whatever he does, remember this awful truth: Your H doesn't care about you at all.

STOP CARING ABOUT HIM and care about you and your children's welfare instead. Make a date by which he must be out, and start getting extremely legal.

He enjoys watching you suffer. He WILL smirk and ignore what you want (because let's face it, that's what he's done for the length of this thread, and longer!) - and so you have to make him do the right thing, and get out and stay gone.

Wishing you luck today. Don't be afraid of having your mum/ a friend around when you give him a date to leave. Let him know that you're not hiding the breakup from anyone, that you're not ashamed of what he's done, it's his to bear.

mathanxiety Thu 06-Dec-12 15:36:42

Lala -- it is all about him in his own mind.
As Stockholmsyndrome said:

He played the victim/martyr to the end. To the end Lala, and all that I gave him was my TIME.

There is nothing to stop him putting his foot down any time he wants to. So far he has tried avoiding the issue, getting too drunk to talk about it, etc. but there is nothing stopping him getting plain stubborn. Playing fair doesn't mean he will reciprocate. From past form I think you need to expect him to play dirty and manipulative. There is absolutely no reason to expect anything else.

We don't have loads of money
The money 'we' have is money you and the children have. Start using the words Me and I and Mine.

I am glad you are getting to the solicitor soon. Ask the solicitor how he can be shifted. That is the most important immediate question that you need to see to. Ask about court orders.

NoWayNoHow Thu 06-Dec-12 18:27:08

*Lala& this article by Lundy Bancroft might help come in handy re: Math and others' advice about involving your family and friends and telling them what's happening.

LalaDipsey Thu 06-Dec-12 19:01:30

.... Should have taken bets.... 'Disney Dad' has come home...!

hillyhilly Thu 06-Dec-12 19:15:21

Quelle surprise!! There's a half decent chance he'll go easy on the alcohol for a weekend or two as well.
Just like last time
Oh so predictable (& too little too late)
I think you need to find your anger again Lala, reread the things he has done, swearing at newborns and your older child and you for a toothbrush plus so many other incidents, jot them down somewhere, not for him to read but just to remind yourself what a selfish, useless man he is.
Good luck, you need to be strong in the face of this "performance".

SecrectFarleysNibbler Thu 06-Dec-12 21:36:14

Well here we go again! He is 'booking' his place for Christmas - your next post will be - can't make him go over Christmas, DTs birthday - can I remind you he had no issue in banishing your birthday for how many years? 20th Jan is OVER a month away. Lala -- DON'T loose momentum - you have said its over and you need to back it straight p and get him out. It doesn't matter if you co-own the house - you are not selling it - you need him out for emotional reasons. Every day you delay him going is another day he beds back in until you are back to square one. You are to be applauded over your actions this week but you need to keep pushing forward. Did you visualise those scales??? Why should he come to your mums for Christmas?? He has shown so little interest in your dc so far - what difference is Christmas going to make?? He needs to hear some strong messages from you. A new mantra - Too little, too late - repeat, repeat, repeat!

mathanxiety Thu 06-Dec-12 21:45:10

If he seriously thinks he can go to your mum's for Christmas then he is testing her and your dad to see if they are pushovers or if they will back you up. Or are you still planning to go to your mum's for Christmas?

oh god yes, I'd forgotten that he decreed that he couldn't POSSIBLY celebrate your birthday because of blah blah blah he's a big tool and likes to torture you.

You can't seriously be thinking it'd work to invite him for a family christmas? Go to your mum's without him. People who are divorcing don't do big fake family christmases. GO and have a good time WITHOUT worrying about him!

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Thu 06-Dec-12 23:27:30

Seriously go without him. Enjoy Christmas with your parents, your children, people who actually LOVE you.

LalaDipsey Fri 07-Dec-12 07:10:40

I thought it would be best for dc to see their dad at Xmas? I haven't discussed it yet with H, although I have told him
I and dc are going to my parents. What I thought would be ok is if I and dc go Xmas eve to Boxing Day and H drove over for Xmas day if he wanted to? Or he could goto his sisters?
Next steps - I called the solicitor yday who was out at court and due to call back today. I will then tell H I have spoken to a solicitor who has recommended getting X drawn up when he moves out in January so he needs to start looking, and what he needs to pay with regards to maintenance.
I have to mention it tonight and push forwards or you're all so right he will ignore again. After dc were in bed last night it didn't get mentioned so I have to tonight or he will think it's gone away again.

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Fri 07-Dec-12 08:31:17

I am sure it is fine if he comes to visit his children at some point during Christmas, but not stay with them and "play happy families" getting drunk, ignoring you, and generally make it as miserable as life in general is for him.

NoWayNoHow Fri 07-Dec-12 09:42:02

What I thought would be ok is if I and dc go Xmas eve to Boxing Day and H drove over for Xmas day if he wanted to?

You do realise that he will drive over and drink till he can't legally drive and then "oh dear, sorry, had a bit too much, is it okay if I stay?"

I thought it would be best for dc to see their dad at Xmas? In what state? Fake Dad who is unpredictable as to when he'll turn, causing mixed emotinos and confusion? Drunk Dad who will swear and throw and kick? Lazy Dad who will sit around all day watching TV while you and your family slave over the Xmas meal as well as trying to look after 3 kids?

Sound like a recipe for disaster.

hillyhilly Fri 07-Dec-12 10:04:29

I don't know the logistics, but maybe he should stay at his sisters and visit the kids for an hour on Christmas Day, before driving back home or to his sisters (or wherever, that's not your problem). He does not have the god-given right to spend the day with you and your family now that you are separated.
Of course all of that, while entirely reasonable, does require sobriety.