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womens attitudes to crossdressing

(878 Posts)
calikid Sun 29-Jul-12 01:16:24

hi everyone,

i write this as a response to the numerous comments on a variety of posts regarding reaction to any stories where crossdressing is a subject. Firstly i'd like to make it clear that i am male and as such appreciate i may be laying myself bare to the onslaught of comment that is likely to come my way. although male i love to wear "womens clothes". What I would like to know is simply why shouldn't I. can anyone give me one valid reason why I shouldn't? because I have never been able to think of one.
I am happily married with two dds and a beautiful wife , all of whom i love very much. My wife knows all about my dressing and has been with me to a couple of tv gatherings. i told her not long after we got together and she was totally fine with it, we have been married now for 8 yrs. we do not let the children know as they are still quite young.
In all other respects I am very much one of the lads......I like football and beer (but then so do many women!), i work in construction, I teach martial arts, I help with housework , I don't mind ironing(coz i can do it while watching tv!)
I take a size 10 and look pretty good in a skirt and heels, but then so does my wife, its just she can do it whenever she pleases and good for her. its just the injustice and ignorance of society that infuriates me.
I'm curious to know how the rest of women feel about the issue

Napdamnyou Sun 29-Jul-12 01:19:40

I don't think 'the rest of women' have a collective opinion on the matter.

BlackSwan Sun 29-Jul-12 01:49:45

Sorry, who are you meant to be - I can't figure it out.

calikid Sun 29-Jul-12 02:03:02

napdamnyou, i realise there is no "collective" opinion, its individual opinions i'm interested in.
blackswan, i thought i had given enough info on my situation to let you know where i'm coming from if you're unclear what more do you need to know?

lisaro Sun 29-Jul-12 02:05:12

Are you freelance or do you work for a particular publication?

izzyizin Sun 29-Jul-12 02:13:10

You take a size 10? Is this is stealth boast? hmm

I haven't noticed a 'variety of posts' or 'numerous comments' on the subject of crossdressing you've referred to on this board.

Maybe you should consider posting on AIBU?

If society's injustice and ignorance infuriates you, imagine how Stephen Gough feels.

calikid Sun 29-Jul-12 02:24:40

no its not a stealth boast, i just have an active job and do sport. i do eat probably too much chocolate but no red meat! I don't understand your question Lisaro, if you're suggesting i'm a professional writer of sorts the answer is no to both i'm just a normal working bloke

PedanticPanda Sun 29-Jul-12 02:25:32

No reason why you shouldn't, they are just clothes.

calikid Sun 29-Jul-12 02:26:33

i apologise if i've posted in the wrong location, i'm not well versed in the correct protocol if there is one

PedanticPanda Sun 29-Jul-12 02:28:34

Although I'd feel uncomfortable with my dp wearing womens clothes, even though I've just said there's no problem with it.

PedanticPanda Sun 29-Jul-12 02:30:48

No you've not posted in the wrong section, you're discussing what is acceptable in your relationship and how others would view it so I suppose posting in relationships makes sense.

MaryHansack Sun 29-Jul-12 02:38:17

it's a little easier for women, we can cross dress whenever we like, and nobody bats an eyelid.
Sod it OP, just slip on a dress and take a walk to the local shop.

ravenAK Sun 29-Jul-12 02:47:23

I'd be fine with it.

Mind you, I'm a goth, & goth events have always tended to be very TV-friendly. I know several cross dressers, the majority of whom are usually out for the evening with their dws/female dps.

If it were my dh (not that he'd be terribly convincing, he's a 6'3 beardy type) then I might worry about it if it was a 'hidden away' thing & he felt uncomfortable about cross dressing openly. Not if he was open about it, though - that'd be fine.

Melanthe Sun 29-Jul-12 02:49:06

Its ok for a woman to be a 'tomboy' or watch footy or whatever because, ultimately, for a woman to want to be a man is a 'step up.'

On the other hand, a man who likes to 'feminine' things - to sew, wear dresses, etc, is taking a 'step down' as men are above women in status.

I think this mindset needs to be changed, but I have no idea how.

Maybe you should try the feminism section for an interesting discussion on this topic?

unicorn72 Sun 29-Jul-12 04:54:38

I am a supportive gg to my dp who is a cd ( sorry about abbravartions but you properly understand them if ur are on scence) i know sadly only a few women who are supportive for the stories that i hear alot of women are scared that there partner wants to be a women ie ts and also think its moraly wrong and the is gay as you know being cd is differnet to being ts am glad ur wife is supportive and u can meet others for mutal support did u get to go to sparkle this yr xx much love

ClaudiaSchiffer Sun 29-Jul-12 05:02:31

I'm not against it in theory I suppose. And I guess if your and your dw are ok then that's fine.

But I'd have a really hard time accepting my dh in a frock. I would think it very peculiar and deeply sexually unattractive.

izzyizin Sun 29-Jul-12 05:08:13

Can you explain why you'd feel that way, Claudia?

Is it because that's how you, i.e. the 'inner' you that's untained by prejudice, would feel or is it because you've been conditioned to feel that way?

izzyizin Sun 29-Jul-12 05:09:14

untainted

hilarioususername Sun 29-Jul-12 05:09:42

Interesting subject. I wear my DH's clothes occasionally, but if I ever saw him in one of my dresses for anything other than a joke I would be very put-off. I don't know why that is, and I'm not proud of it.

On the other hand anyone else can wear whatever clothes they like, it doesn't make a difference to me. Why shouldn't you wear what you want?

I wonder why my opinions are so different for my DH. I guess it's perfectly fine to do but not physically attractive to me.

ClaudiaSchiffer Sun 29-Jul-12 05:16:46

Crumbs Izzy, I dunno, I think it's because the thought of my big hairy husband in a feminine frock fills me with hysterical laughter - not condusive to feeling sexy.

It would make me see him as less of a man I suppose. I'm not particularly proud of that or ashamed - it's just how I feel, and I really don't care what anyone else's husband chooses to wear but if I came home early and caught dh in my bra I'd have a serious re-think of our marriage.

izzyizin Sun 29-Jul-12 05:40:10

Would it be easier to cope with the thought if he wasn't hairy, Claudia? You've made me think of Bernard Bresslaw dressed up as a beauty queen in some Carry On film - the title of which I can't recall at the present time.

As for coming home and finding him in your bra, that's pure Monty Python's Lumberjack song grin

I rarely wear a bra and I frequently wear trousers. I've even got a tux, albeit that I don't wear it with a cummberbund, bowtie, and suspenders (braces). But I'm not butch nor am I about to have my fanjo fashioned into something approximating a penis or start hitting on women.

So why should we bat an eyelid at a man wearing a dress or imagine that he's gay or wants to be a woman?

I used to be pretty good friends with someone (male) who crossed dressed. She used to join in on our girls nights out too. She was good fun, and could still hold an interesting convo at 2 in the morning. smile The cross dressing part was neither here nor there, it was just another fact.

I wouldn't have a problem if DH wanted to cross dress. I would not be happy if he wanted to borrow my clothes though, I'm a bit precious about other people wearing my clothes. blush I don't know that I would still find him as attractive while dressed up though, his masculinity is part of what I find attractive about him.

izzyizin Sun 29-Jul-12 06:42:39

Mmm... I wonder if it's because when I put on my Wranglers and pull on a pair of Frye boots I'm simply getting dressed ready to go ride my horse or go about my day whereas when a man puts on a skirt and slips his feet into a pair of Manolos the inference is that he's dressing to achieve a sexual thrill.

Do you get a sexual kick out of dressing as a woman, calikid?

izzyizin Sun 29-Jul-12 06:52:16

I have a cd friend who takes on a female persona when he wears women's clothing, Mango.

'He' becomes 'she'; 'she' exhibits mannerisms atypical of female in that the way he walks and carries himself changes, whereas when I dress in what are traditionally men's clothes, albeit now 'unisex', I stay resolutely 'me'.

coffeeandcake Sun 29-Jul-12 07:39:18

this thread has challenged me!
i have always thought that i am fine with cd - individual's right and all that. however, when i REALLY think about it, I think i WOULD struggle if my DP wanted to cd. i agree with the op who said that her man's masculinity was one of the attractive features she liked in him.
that said, it wouldn't be a deal-breaker, i think. i would just need time to come to terms with it. And i don't think i would be happy with him wearing my clothes, he would have to buy his own.
thanks, calikid, for giving me food for thought!

crazyhead Sun 29-Jul-12 07:54:06

Theoretically, absolutely no issue with it, no issue hanging out with people who was cross-dressed or whatever, none of it.

Re my OH, wouldn't mind at all if he was crossdressing for some fancy dress party, but I would struggle if it was a regular part of his (sexual) identity. Something to do with how I fitted into that picture, maybe? And, to be honest, my sexual enjoyment of his maleness.

I have to say, I would completely expect OH to have similar reservations were I to strap my breasts, chop my hair off and go out for a regular 'male acting' night out. I would expect that to potentially disrupt OH's pleasurable sense of my 'femaleness'.

I am sure there are couples where that would be completely acceptable and even an important part of their lives, but I don't think it is as straightforward as prejudice in cases where people DON'T like it.

All of this goes to show the importance of being upfront and honest like you have OP, so you can get together with the right woman for you smile

You should be allowed to wear whatever you choose, but why do you want to wear women's clothes? They're shit! They're either too tight or falling off or too revealing, not warm enough, not hard wearing, have no functional pockets, restrict movement or are actually painful. The one exception I can think of is big floaty skirts - they are bloody comfy on a hot day and I think men are missing out by not wearing them.

My dh does. Started after our marriage and to be honest, it has just about killed most desire in me for him. I don't give a toss whether its my own intolerance, societal conditioning, whatever, but he said nothing about it before the marriage and I feel it changed the goalposts without my consent.

He is a depressive and it really helps him cope. If I were to ask him to stop it cold, I'd have a very depressed husband.
Often laugh when I read posters on here, saying oooh its only clothing, etc. I wonder how some might react if it was presented to them, with no real choice.

I love my dh and want to support him, but this has spoiled my marriage. I won't divorce him, but the deep resentment is there.

I couldn't give a hoot about the vast majority of other people cross dressing, but if it was my husband I would be shocked. I'd like to think I would be supportive but it would come as a surprise & I can't honestly say how I would deal with it. I don't think it would be a deal breaker but it would take some adjustment.

crazyhead Sun 29-Jul-12 08:43:21

LostMyIdentity - I can well imagine that I might feel that way too. I think it is too big an issue to just not mention prior to marriage.

Glaringstrumpet Sun 29-Jul-12 08:43:34

I wear jeans, tshirt, baggy jumper and functional rather than titillating underwear (am female). But cross-dressers (im very limited e) wear frilly stuff, stillettos, plunging necklines, tights (the most uncomforable item of clothing invented) so are not cross-dressing but dressing in some parody of womanhood (a bit Edna Everage).

To have a need to do that seems v weird to me and I would ask about the relationship they had with their mother.

Looksgoodingravy Sun 29-Jul-12 08:56:58

I know somebody who cd. I've seen him wearing a bikini in the summer. I don't 'get' it. I would like to understand more as to why you would choose to wear feminine clothes, for a start the shoes are a bloody killer, save your perfect feet wink seriously though tbh if dp came downstairs wearing my clothes I'd be mortified, I would find it hard to feel desire for him.

anairofhopeFORGOLD Sun 29-Jul-12 08:57:28

Op why do you feel the need to wear a dress?

If it was just clothes why not jeans and tshirt?

What is going on in your head when you do this?

Is it any different to playing dress up as a child?

Does it change your personality or the way you see yourself?

If everyone was fine with it would you wear a dress to work or would it loss its appeal?

I do not know any cd but i would be fine with it. I would have a lot of questions for them. If it was my husband then i would need reassurance that he was not gay not wanting to be a woman and that he still fancied me and set boundaries around it. I would not be happy to be railroaded over it and i dont think i could fancy him in girly clothes as im attracked to maleness!

TimeWasting Sun 29-Jul-12 08:58:41

DH was prob wearing a dress when I met him. They all used to dress up when we went out, played gigs etc. Big Manic Street Preachers fans.
They weren't pretending to be women though. That was saved for Halloween.

You must be quite skinny, DH at 6'2 and very skinny was size 14 minimum.

CogitoErgOlympics Sun 29-Jul-12 09:04:12

Anyone can wear or not wear anything they like as far as I'm concerned. But, because I find men in women's clothing faintly ridiculous, and because I like partners to be people I can respect and take seriously, I wouldn't find it any more appealing in a boyfriend than if he decided to wear a clown outfit in the evenings. That's not 'women's attitudes', however, it's purely mine.

Concentrateonthegood Sun 29-Jul-12 09:04:31

I used to have a boyfriend that cross dressed but he wouldn't have wanted to "out" himself in public. I was fine with it and used to help him with his make up. If he'd wanted to go out in public, if we had stayed together and I had developed a love for him, I like to think that I would have been supportive and accepting of WHO is was.

DinahMoHum Sun 29-Jul-12 09:06:23

i havent got anything against it, had several friends who were crossdressers and have a friend who is trans. I dont know how id feel about it in a relationship. One of my exes used to do it sometimes and it was never a problem, but I think id find it hard to think of a man as strong and dominant if he dressed in girls knickers. Great for a dominant woman, but not for me.

anairofhopeFORGOLD Sun 29-Jul-12 09:06:55

Also when i think of a male cd i think drag queen or Larry the cable guy in a pink tutu and cant take it seriously. I never think of a 20 something watching football in a navy dress and court shoes!

If it was my son or a relative or friend i would be fine with it. I think when you put it in a sexaul contect people are unconfotable with it

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere Sun 29-Jul-12 09:08:13

Doesn't bother me what you do.
I wouldn't fancy my oh in a frock.
I would still lve him but I wouldn't find him attractive.
If I am honest I wonder about the apparent tendency (I don't mix with a lot of cd) to me hyper feminine. Most I have seen wear high heels, 'sexy' clothes, fishnets etc.
Clothes most of the women I know wouldn't be seen dead in.
But I don't know if my perception is just because they are the most noticeable rather than representative of cd generally.

Malificence Sun 29-Jul-12 09:48:03

I find men in womens clothes repulsive, most of them look like Gollum in a dress and go out of their way to look like some revolting caricature of a woman.
I couldn't be attracted to my husband if he wanted to wear womens' clothes.

caramel1 Sun 29-Jul-12 09:48:48

I have no problem with cd, both my dad and my 1st exh did it.

The problem I had, with my xh, was that it became part of his sex routine, the only way he could be turned on was to wear a dress, a huge turn off, its a wonder we had our son.

My dad wore underwear mostly and nighties, I knew about the undies, but found out about the nighties after he died.

izzyizin Sun 29-Jul-12 09:50:01

I don't have a problem if one of my paramours dons one of my kimonos to make me breakfast/answer the door/lounge around until we get dressed, nor do I have a problem if they put on one of my frilly pinnys and a pair of my fancy rubber gloves (with faux diamond ring & painted 'nails') to unblock the sink/drain/loo.

But I would have a problem if, on donning an item of my clothing or on wearing women's clothing they have bought for themselves, 'Paul' became 'Pauline' and expected me to engage with her 'woman to woman' for extended periods of time because I would have concern that 'Paul' was pyschologically fragmented, if not tormented.

And this from a gal who'd welcome the opportunity to jump on Eddie Izzard's bones grin

Malificence Sun 29-Jul-12 09:52:55

Eddie Izzard looks like a man, even in make up and high heels, in the same way Phil Oakey did in the early 80's.
Big difference.

ElsieMc Sun 29-Jul-12 10:02:54

Your wife is fine with your cross-dressing, but you have to accept that it is outside the boundaries of the norm for a lot of people. I worked with a cross-dresser and although it did not particularly bother me in that it did not affect me, the fact it was all highly secretive lead me to believe it was a compulsion he was ashamed of, his wife was not happy with and the impact upon his children of this being discovered did not bear thinking about in the town we live in.

You are quite right, you can dress however you choose so long as you accept other people's right to be uncomfortable with your way of expressing yourself and the possible impact upon the people you love.

Fairenuff Sun 29-Jul-12 10:06:59

can anyone give me one valid reason why I shouldn't? because I have never been able to think of one

we do not let the children know as they are still quite young

OP these two statements show that you obviously can think of a reason because otherwise, why hide it from your children?

So I think if you can work out why you feel you need to hide it from your children, then you may find your answer.

I like football and beer (but then so do many women!), i work in construction, I teach martial arts, I help with housework , I don't mind ironing

Also, you yourself are assigning gender roles here as in 'football, beer, construction, martial arts = manly - housework, ironing = woman's role hmm

'Helping' with housework does not go down well here. Think about it. Is it mainly her responsibility and you 'help out'. If so why? Because she is female?
Because you work outside the home?

Peachy Sun 29-Jul-12 10:09:29

Doesn't bother me, FIL went through a long phase of cross dressing (I suspect he only stopped because his new partner insisted).

Although said if my Mark became Marsha it might be a deal breaker not because of what he wanted being wrong, but my own hang ups about what people think. Outside the home I think you'd need to be quite strong to cope with that. Maybe my love for DH would be enough, i'd have to find out.

izzyizin Sun 29-Jul-12 10:15:13

Exactly, Mal. Wearing women's clothes doesn't appear to compromise Mr Izzard's masculinity and, while he may express more than a passing interest in the latest trends in make-up, nail varnish etc, I don't get the impression that he has a feminine alter ego named Edwina or some such or that he spends inordinate periods of time 'mincing'.

HecateHarshPants Sun 29-Jul-12 10:19:27

you don't 'help' with housework. you do housework. Unless you see housework as her job? I bloody HATE the 'help with housework', 'help with the children', 'babysat my kids' shit that some people come out with.

Re the women's clothes. It's really very simple. It's because society doesn't find it acceptable.

Nothing more than that.

There is no 'reason' why a man shouldn't wear a dress and heels. Women wear trousers and that's ok. It's just because most people think it's weird.

People think it's weird because it's not the done thing, it's not the done thing because people think it's weird...

It's also because a man dressing in women's clothes is seen as a sexual fetish and therefore to be seen out and about in women's clothes is uncomfortable for people who think it is being done to get a sexual thrill.

These are not my own opinions. I am speculating on the reasons why society at large frowns upon men in twinset and pearls. My own opinion is dress how you like, couldn't give a shit grin

izzyizin Sun 29-Jul-12 10:26:54

I'm not so sure about that, Hecate.

I used to frequent a hostelry popular with Army personnel such as Grenadier Guards and the like.

Every evening a gentleman could be found propping up the bar while he nursed his pint. Nowt unusual about that except he was c6' tall, short back and sides, moustache, and invariably wearing a pearl necklace and earrings, twinset, pleated skirt, stockings (may have been tights) and court shoes.

No-one gave him a second glance grin

coppertop Sun 29-Jul-12 10:36:23

The only reason that women wearing trousers in seen as generally acceptable in our society is because women have had to stand up to ignorance and prejudice and insist on wearing them even when others didn't approve.

Even now, there are still stories of schools refusing to allow girls to wear trousers as part of the school uniform. There are also still formal social occasions where it is expected that women will wear dresses or skirts.

Personally I really don't mind what other people choose to wear or not wear. I do think though that it's not entirely accurate to say that women are free to wear whatever they like and whenever they like, while oppressed men have to wear trousers.

Fairenuff Sun 29-Jul-12 10:41:10

If my dh wore the same as I did yesterday to our local shops, no-one would bat an eyelid. Because I wore a pair of shorts, a short sleeved shirt and a pair of sandals. I see plenty of men and women dressed like that.

Or is cross dressing just skirts, dresses, heels, tights? Because if that's the case it is still putting women in a 'compartment'.

When women first started wearing trousers, it was considered unladylike and was shocking to some members of society. Did that stop them? No. Women have fought and fought to have these choices accepted and now it is quite normal for women to wear what they like.

If that is really what you want OP you may have to put yourself out there. Fight for your rights. Change does not happen quickly. You might never be accepted as a cross dresser but your grandson, or great grandson might.

This is all well and good, being pro-tranny etc, but I stand by my post. If it happens to you with no heads up, you feel that the masculine side that you found sexy and attractive has gone.... Then trust me, its hard to wave the pro-cd flag.

Two of us on here haVe testified that it fucking stinks when it happens to you.

We both love our dhs, but the resentment is there. If they do it for mental health reasons, eg stress release, then what option does that leave us as their wives? Divorce? Hardly fair.

It's great to proselytize tolerance. I agree, each to their own, peaCe out, etc etc... But just walk a mile in our shoes and then see how you feel. When part of the sexual essence that drew you to him is whipped away from under your feet, its not so easy. Trust me.

Fairenuff Sun 29-Jul-12 10:57:53

If my dh announced after all these years that he was a secret cross dresser and wanted to 'come out' I give no guarantee that I would stay with him.

He would not be the person I thought he was. It's a whole other part of his personality and that does change things in a relationship. Not saying it would be wrong of him, just that I reserve the right to not want a relationship with a cross dresser, if that's how I felt about it.

Personally, I would like to know the reasons for it. It certainly isn't comfort or practicality. I suspect there is some kind of sexual, what, thrill?

It would be helpful if the OP came back to answer some of our questions tbh.

faire, strangely I was thinking this too.

Might also add that he is totally comfortable and justified in his mind. I'd love to hear the thoughts of his 'beautiful' wife. (well done there, OP,bagged yourself a looker, eh? )

calikid Sun 29-Jul-12 11:14:29

morning all,
i appreciate the time you've all taken to add your comments to this post, and yes i will come back and attempt to answer and put itno perspective the numerous questions herein. it will take a bit of time tio read thru and pick my words as i don't wantto either offend and or be misconstrued as is all so easy with the written word! Sorry but busy doing work on my extension to the house today so will come back this evening. In the meantime keep those comments and questions coming, i really do value your input

calikid Sun 29-Jul-12 11:17:11

the one thing i'd like to say first is that its not so much a sexual thrill as a sensual thrill. I'm sure lots of you can either understand and or share such feelings when dressing up

No. I can't. But thanks for trying to be inclusive. Bless...

anairofhopeFORGOLD Sun 29-Jul-12 11:36:02

OP have you ever seen a photo of yourself dressed up or a video? If so what did you think feel?

Have you had counciling with regards to cross dressing?

Are you intreseted in campaining to wear dresses to work shopping down the pub?

Is there a certain type of style you wear? Would you be happy wearing bootleg jeams and a fitted pink tshirt?

Do you wear your wifes clothes?
Will.you share your dd clothes?
Do you see it could be selfish of you to make your children even as adults deal with this?
Could you stop if you wanted to?
Would you get dressed up with your son?
Do you go shopping with your wife and try dresses on im shops?

Wouldn't bother me in the least, I have had a couple of boyfriends who cross-dressed and it didn't turn me off, either. The distinctions between 'men's' and 'women's' clothes are pretty arbitrary, as well: there have been times when it was only men who wore bright colours etc and there are several Middle Eastern/African cultures where the men wear what you could basically call dresses.
I do think that if someone finds it a turn-off to have a cross-dressing partner, well, you can't help your feelings. Your feelings are valid. But if it's making you hate and resent your partner, you need to think about ending the relationship, because his feelings are as valid as yours, and if you are basically incompatible staying together will do neither of you any favours.

Fairenuff Sun 29-Jul-12 11:41:45

Do you mean that you like the feel of certain fabrics OP? If you got a tailor to make some 'publicly acceptable' clothing that you could wear out, in the fabric of your choice, then you could quite easily enjoy the feel of sensual clothes wherever you go.

Or if you mean, the feel of a skirt swishing around your legs, you could wear a kilt which is perfectly acceptable and you could go anywhere you liked dressed like that.

Or if you mean dressing up in your finest clothes and making yourself feel pampered, all you need to do is take a lot of care over your personal groomig and dressing. Make sure your shoes are polished, your shirts are crisply clean and well ironed, your skin is well nourished and moisturised, etc. Plenty of men do that too, there are loads of products out there for men.

anairofhopeFORGOLD Sun 29-Jul-12 11:41:54

What is so sensual about cotton full brifes and tights?

What is so sexy about pink trainers or joggins?

I dont get it.

Yes, but it really isn't as easy as ending the relationship when there are three children involved.

OP are you a 'real' Grayson Perry cd, or do you dress up during sex?
Don't confuse the two.

Hmmm, OP have re-read your original post, ignore my ? Sorry.

Fairenuff Sun 29-Jul-12 11:49:37

Good point SGB about different cultures. It's perfecly normal and acceptable for men to wear what look like wraparound skirts or dresses.

I think the difference is whether the man is dressing as a man with a particular outfit on or whether he is dressing as a man who wants to look like a woman.

As has already been said, Eddie Izzard did not try to 'look like a woman' in the same way that Lily Savage did. David Beckham looked good in a skirt because he looked like a man in a skirt, not a man dressed as a woman.

anairofhopeFORGOLD Sun 29-Jul-12 11:50:39

Lost you have the right to be happy as well as your children. If you are unhappy the children will know and as adults feel guilty you staied cos of them. Would you be happy with your husband when your children have grown and moved out and its just the both of you?

What you want and need counts. You cant control how other people feel or what they do only how you feel and what you do.

Chandon Sun 29-Jul-12 11:51:32

I think cross dressers are boring, but that also suspect they think I should find it shocking or special.

To me it seems attention seeking, but maybe I don T really understand WHY people do it.

I did love all the men in the village dressing up as the queen on the jubilee though, that was amusing

LMFAO Chandon,no, I don't think you get it either! I don't think genuine CDs do it for attention!
Jesus! That has made me LOL!

Fairenuff Sun 29-Jul-12 12:06:18

Lots of men wore heels in the 70s - platforms were all the rage.

In fact, men wore sparkly, skin tight clothes, and brightly patterned flares for starters, so I suppose current fashion trends have a lot to do what is socially acceptable. But you could always start a new trend OP.

It wasn't so long ago that it was considered outlandish for men to have long hair. Sometimes, especially with teenagers around 14 - 16 age, I do have to look twice to work out if they're male or female. That's all perfectly ordinary these days too. Boys are starting to wear a bit of mascara or eyeliner much more than they used to.

I really don't think society objects that much to what you wear, it's more about the reasons behind it, why do you wear it, what message are you trying to send.

The fact that it does seems to be sexual is what makes it distasteful to some members of society. And, as you yourself have stated OP, not suitable for children.

PrimaBallerina Sun 29-Jul-12 12:10:23

Each to their own. I'd find it weird and a huge turn off. That in itself would affect our relationship.

I love that DH is a man's man and doesn't wear lipgloss. I'm glad for you that your wife thinks differently.

As others have said, that's my opinion and not that if womankind collectively.

anairofhopeFORGOLD Sun 29-Jul-12 12:11:22

I dont think its shocking or wrong but i would like to know more before i judge grin

for me a man cant know what it is like to be a women because they cant give birth or have af. Its just not possable.

Of course you can love and feel attractive to the same sex as these are feelings.

It is not wrong to dress up anyway you want to or use any product you want to. Women were not allowed to be actors so in plays men dressed up and acted as women. In my cultures men wear dress type clothes even in the uk its called a kilt

what i take offence at is a male having distored image of women and portaying only one aspect of women in a sexualy way and objectfying women.

gold, in that case there was lots to find offensive in the original OP post.

Tranny behavior was the least of it!!

To be honest, this is all too near the knuckle for me. Not entirely comfortable with the tone of the OPs posts, not here to help him get his rocks off and hoist his self-justification pants. Hmmm, I suspect I'm being too harsh on him, precisely because this is a raw topic for me.

But as I don't give a shit about that to be fair, I'll leave it there and let others help him explore his psyche.

bowing out ungracefully

Fairenuff Sun 29-Jul-12 12:21:50

a male having distorted image of women and portaying only one aspect of women in a sexualy way and objectfying women

Yes, I agree. I think that is what many people (men and women) would find strange or offensive. It's not the clothes per se, it's the intention.

Remember the big shoulder pads in the 80s. Women trying to look like men. It wasn't necessary and it didn't last long.

OP, when you dress as a woman, do you wear fake breasts? Do you pad a bra or something?

Chandon, do you just think that everyone should be as dull as you sound?

Napdamnyou Sun 29-Jul-12 13:22:28

I've Always had cd friends but never wanted to have a cd partner. I aaccepted that they are doing it for release and a sexual/sensual/comfort thing but there is a part pf me that feels uncomfortable with the parody of mincing femininity, because that is not being a woman, and it can feel like the piss is being taken out of woman-ness, if th cross dresser is simpering and being twee and girly.

One CD friend was more like Izzard and used to wear colourful wraparound skirts and Mexican jewellery with big jumpers and doc martins, he was Mexican and had a beard! For him it was about comfort and fun. The other was more into drag and used to pick up and have sex with men when dragged up in heels, frilly tight things. For him it was definitely sexual. Both had split from their female partners.

likeatonneofbricks Sun 29-Jul-12 13:23:25

I really can't see a difference between a man wearing a skirt from wearing a kilt or a wraparound towel - it can look great on athletic figures, like Beckam's. What I do find off putting aesthetically is men in high heels as they can't walk in them like a woman (generalisation but largely so, unless he is a pro actor cd, and obviously some women can't walk well in heels), and it does look like a caricature, and makes the mucslereally bulge. If a man is barefoot or in loafers/whatever, a kilt or a straight skirt is absolutely fine. Also sheer fabrics like chiffon were invented for the soft woman's body - it just looks wrong on hairy/athletic men, same as a colour can look wrong on someone. If a man can find a balance between thickness of fabric and right cut, it could start a real new trend, I bet if a celebrity did it it would take off with some!
To me it's all about taste and what looks good. Chinese trad dress was all dresses, embroidered at that, for men and women, didn't look odd at all. But they were not flimsy.
LostmyIdentity, I know you feel resentful, but can you really not understand the sensual pleasure of dressing up in cashmere or silk and pearls? your response to Op was over the top cutting.

I have a friend who cross dresses. I have no problem with it but most other people do.

If my partner was to do it, I'd find it a bit weird but I wouldn't stop him from doing it. It's not that I dislike blokes who wear clothing associated with women, it's because if I was to be intimate with my partner I would feel he was a woman in a sense, due to the clothes as it brings up so many associations we are taught to have. Not that I'm opposed to lesbianism either - quite on the contrary. But looking like a woman on the outside and then being a man underneath the clothes would confuse my brain. :O

However my friend likes that I don't judge him on it. His Mum has no problem with it, but it's been a dealbreaker in most of his past relationships. It's a shame really because if it's something he enjoys and feels very comfortable with, then it really shouldn't matter.

But to society, it does.

likeatonneofbricks Sun 29-Jul-12 13:31:47

Napdamnyou, I really don't think that in case of OP it's about being a woman for a short while! He says he's manly but likes the clothes themselves, there could be lots of reasons apart from wanting to be a woman. I can think of one quickly - being starved of affection as a child (from the mother) and wanting to be 'hugged/caressed' by feminine clothes. Or - he thinks he looks good in a skirt ,and is very artistic/imaginative by nature (which doesn't get the outlet in his physical job).
It really does depend OP on HOW you do it, then you can ask why would people mind.

Fairenuff Sun 29-Jul-12 13:34:23

Men can and do wear cashmere and silk, although not so much the pearls.

^Why should he or anyone else who crossdresses have to have counselling?

It's only wrong because society says it is, not because it is.

If you're really pedantic about it, nothing is right or wrong, it's just individual and group opinions. That's how it is.

But if it's not hurting anyone else, then it should be allowed to be done, iyswim.

likeatonneofbricks Sun 29-Jul-12 13:40:02

yes Fair but it does tend to be thick or mixed with something (bar dressing gowns), and rarely cashmere on bare skin. He can't wear that to his work though if he's in construction, can he? cashmere would make him too sweaty haha.

antsypants Sun 29-Jul-12 13:53:29

I would have zero issue if I met a man I was interested in and he was a cross dresser, I would accommodate it in our life as much as he wanted.

I would have an issue with someone who was dishonest about this, who lied and did not open up about it, keeping it hidden.

Glaringstrumpet Sun 29-Jul-12 13:59:32

Sorry but busy doing work on my extension to the house today so will come back this evening. In the meantime keep those comments and questions coming

confused pictures cali teetering at top of step ladder with stiletto heel caught on rung and drill cable tangled in frilly petticoat!!

ColouringIn Sun 29-Jul-12 14:10:04

My friend's late partner was a cross dresser, something he nervously disclosed to her after several weeks of dating. My friend accepted it and they were happy together until his death.

Fairenuff Sun 29-Jul-12 14:11:11

yes Fair but it does tend to be thick or mixed with something (bar dressing gowns), and rarely cashmere on bare skin. He can't wear that to his work though if he's in construction, can he? cashmere would make him too sweaty haha

It doesn't have to be though does it. Is the OP wearing womens clothes because he either can't afford pure silk shirts, or because he is lazy about tracking down a source where he can order them. I get the impression that it's more because they are womens clothes, not mens.

And why would he wear cashmere to work anyway? Anyone, man or woman, working in construction would wear the appropriate clothing including steel toe capped boots and hard hats.

He could still change in the evening into a mens cashmere jumper, with nothing underneath, if that's that he wanted.

This thread has opened up more questions than answers tbh. For example, I would like to know where OP has met this prejudice in his life, other than supposedly reading lots of threads on mn hmm

OP do you actually leave the house like this? What sort of thing do you wear. Where do you go and what are the reactions that you've met?

unicorn72 Sun 29-Jul-12 14:17:52

LostMyIdentityAlongTheWay i can understand why you have posted what you have I know a good few tv's cd's etc that have parnters like yourself so many when they do tell their loved ones are completely rejected so sending you a hug smile

my dp didnt tell me her about female side she just came about ( i just let it be known that she could come out so to speak without fear of rejection and that was within the second week )

we been together over 2 years now at first it would only be weekends and "stay" for the weekend etc but now she shes heres for the most of week. we go out when money allows us she has her own wardorb we are differtnet shapes so she cant always borrow my clothes Shopping is good loking for both of us I have been told by lots of cds etc that its so nice to see a GG suportive outside of the home too (ie got to places like sparkle etc) we have a great soical life its not sexual for her more like stress relife (if she is unable to dress for whatever reason for more than a few days etc ) she goes to work in brab but wear stockings etc under her work clothes etc

anairofhopeFORGOLD Sun 29-Jul-12 14:19:19

Im not saying it is wrong or that all cd should have counciling but i think it would be helpful in understanding why this is important to the indiviual.

OP have you ever tried getting dressed up and going shopping and see what react you get? I bet most people would not say anything. Msybe the barriers are only in your own head?

If you want it to be acceptable in public then you need to start being public and challeng the status quo.

Offred Sun 29-Jul-12 14:25:16

I literally have no opinion about what clothes you want to wear. I don't know why you are posting either - for validation? Because if you are happy you don't need the "rest of women" to be happy for you, this is the way to drive yourself mad. I don't know why we are being given so much detail about your life either, it is like your inner narrative is shouting "I am normal, I am normal, see how normal I am" I think you need to stay away from trying to get validation from Internet forums, this is likely to lead to insanity, validate your own feelings for yourself. I also think it is slightly weird to hide this from your children as though it is shameful, surely it is just what you like to do? confused

anairofhopeFORGOLD Sun 29-Jul-12 14:25:27

Also why is it just women atturdtueds to cd why not women and men?

Offred Sun 29-Jul-12 14:27:36

Anair - I thought it was because he was seeking validation from the peer group tbh.

OhEmGee24 Sun 29-Jul-12 14:39:38

I'd feel really uncomfortable if my dp wore any women's clothes other than stupid fancy dress. Sorry

Gibbous Sun 29-Jul-12 14:41:06

I don't really give a flying fig what any man I know or don't know wants to wear until it came to a partner.

Because I have to agree with the poster upthread who said it isn't so much about throwing on a dress and sticking on a bit of lippy Eddie Izzard like. That's a style decision, which I'd be more than comfortable with. And proud of actually. I know a few guys who do the whole alternative dress and make-up thing and it is no more and no less than what is behind the reasons for women choosing the clothes they do.

But if it's taken it to another level with the full uber-feminine get up that very few women themselves seem to wear of seamed stockings, red stilletoes etc and the resulting shift in identity I'd want to know about the driving force behind that. And actually, tbf, I'd be concerned for a close female friend if she felt she was having to display her gender identity so assertively with. That is a different kettle of fish to the everyday style decisions that everyone makes and I'd need to be comfortable with why it does go beyond them. And that need would be the offputting thing I think, not the result.

Like I said only with a partner though, it's none of my business with anyone else.

TheSmallClanger Sun 29-Jul-12 14:50:26

I agree with what someone said on the previous page about a lot of TV men seeming to parody femininity. It can feel insulting.
At various times in my life, I've been part of the goth and industrial music/clubbing scene, and I've seen lots of men wearing skirts and makeup. Some of them look great: DH's friend in a tight black t-shirt and a short kilt-type skirt, with boots, is something I wouldn't mind seeing again, and I once saw a very tall man in a pinstripe kimono who looked amazing. Lots of the younger men tend to wear very wide-legged trousers, platform boots and tight little vest tops these days, which would look equally at home on a woman.

However, I've also seen some really unconvincing T-girls, much less often. There's something a bit odd and (to me, rightly or wrongly) uncomfortable about men wearing flouncy dresses that are often age-inappropriate - too young or too old, the ever-present high-heeled court shoe and old-lady makeup. I don't know whether this is an issue of over-feminine parody, or simple not dressing right for one's age or physique, and it's possibly all of these. I also don't really understand men who wear women's underwear - hell, I try not to wear most women's underwear, which digs in, is impractical and offers little coverage or warmth benefit. I briefly dated a man who was a bit obsessed with underwear, and I found it a turn-off. Actually, thinking out loud, I can see how finding your partner in women's clothes, especially the traditional kind, might feel a bit judgement-ish, as if that's how he sees women, and by extension, you.

hellymelly Sun 29-Jul-12 15:05:03

My only objection would be aesthetic. You may think you look good in a skirt and heels. I think that is highly unlikely. I have yet to see the man who looks stunning in a frock. Silly yes, vain yes, at best brave, but gorgeous? no

Offred Sun 29-Jul-12 15:16:32

FFS surely gorgeous is in the eye of the beholder?! Anyway this is kind of proving my point... Other people are always going to judge your appearance some will like it, some won't. There will undoubtedly be a herd effect where those who fail to comply with what is "normal" fail to satisfy in terms of compliance but this is nothing to do with "being gorgeous" or not it is about tribal behaviour and fear of the unknown, I think. The only person to whom your outward appearance should matter is you, other people are entirely unimportant, you really need to be able to love how you look and reconcile how you want to dress with how you feel.

This quote is appropriate: "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." nietzsche

I think if you are trying to fight the tribe, whether or not it is a real battle, and yourself as well you will be utterly miserable.

Yogii Sun 29-Jul-12 16:21:10

Izzy's question is the one. Is it sexual.

As for 'sensual'. Taking a bath can be sensual for some, but few people want to position their baths where people they don't know will observe them.

If it's just the injustice and ignorance of society that infuriates you, then presumably you want to be able to do this at times and in places of your choosing, otherwise it wouldn't matter, because what you do in your own home nobody knows or cares about.

So if it is really just sensual for you, can't you get your sensual thrills over and done with in a few hours at home in the evening?

I rather suspect that you like being seen like this. That's the thrill for many CDs.

And if that's the case then I pity your family. The wife who goes along with it but actually hates it, the kids who would be horrified by it if dad decided to do the gardening in a summer dress.

Get your fix indoors. If you can't do that then join/start CD Pride and who knows, in 20 years in might be the norm and you'll be fulfilled. Either way, stop looking for validation and have the confidence to do what you want to do.

I think keeping it from the children is reasonable given that the world is full of fuckwitted mundanes who want to attack anything that doesn't fit in with their narrow definition of normal, so the child whose parent does something a big unusual might be bullied; it's reasonable to want to protect a child from that by being discreet.

I see what you mean, ana.

OurPlanetNeptune Sun 29-Jul-12 18:55:09

Society should have no say in what anyone wears as long as they refrain from being indecent in public. Cross dressing hurts no-one (except in relationships where the other half finds it unacceptable). calikid, I also cannot think of a valid reason why you as a man cannot go out dressed in your cd outfits. Of course you would probably face a lot of prejudice and ridicule, but that is the world we live in today and hopefully one day this will change.

However, personally I would not find it acceptable in my marriage. If my husband told me now that he was a secret cd I would have a huge problem continuing the marriage. It would the deceit that would bother me the most. And no, in my dating days I would never have dated a man who was a cd. I accept that it massively intolerant of me. I also would not have dated a man who smoked or took drugs. Those two would also be marriage breakers now.

I know a man who is a cd. His partner (my friend) hates it because he can't have sex if he does not 'dress up'. I don't think the relationship will last. He will not stop (he shouldn't have to to be honest), and she finds it a sexual turn off (which she has every right to feel). Result: impasse.

At the risk of a flaming I am going to confess that I find cd men faintly ridiculous. For the cd's that I have known (via my friends boyfriend) have a warped idea of femininity, somewhat sexist and antifeminist. The characteristics/behaviour and clothes are usually a caricature of womanhood.

I do not think that cd can be equated with a woman wearing trousers. When I dress in jeans or trousers I do not take on a male persona. I do not take on a man's name and I do not hide my breasts.

No, it cannot be equated with the Scots man who wear a kilt. Indeed, I am from an African tribe where men wear a type of sarong. None of the men in my family try to emulate a female when they wear these garments. They wear the clothes for historical and practical reasons, there is no sexual/sensual thrill gained from wearing the clothes.

calikid, the cds I have met are leading me to conclude that it is a compulsive sexual fetish where the cd is usually a narcissist. I could not live with such a person.

If I'm honest I would be utterly revolted by a male partner wanting to wear women's clothing. It's always disgusted me really, for as long as I can remember.

In fact within a few hours of meeting my husband I knew he was 'the one' and asked him if he had any awful secrets like was he a mass murderer or did he like wearing women's clothing (sorry!). It's still a joke between us.

I honestly cannot empathise with women who continue relationships with cross dressers. They seem so...humiliated...and almost emotionally abused.

The men themselves just look so ridiculous, the thought of my big butch 6'4" husband in a floaty dress makes me want to laugh and swiftly pack his (pink) suitcase.

My honest opinion.

DizzySiddal Sun 29-Jul-12 21:03:50

It's a non-issue for me. It's just clothes. I have more of a problem with society's inability to accept anything that's not the norm. And give me a cross dressing dp over one that wears hideous 'designer' t shirts/replica football shirts/track suits (etc etc) any day.
Btw I've had several relationships with men who cd, and no, they didn't end because of that. The cross dressing was as incidental and inconsequential as what colour toothbrush he used.

Helltotheno Sun 29-Jul-12 21:12:23

I think the reason I wouldn't want my partner to be a CD is down to my own view of actual clothes and fashion. I've always found clothes shopping a chore, and the whole stress around what to wear for what occasion has gotten me down more than once. From that perspective, I quite simply could not relate to, and wouldn't really have any understanding of a man who could even be arsed dressing in heels, fishnets, little skirts, cardis etc - I don't dress like that myself EVER and no good friend of mine does either. I would consider it hobby-wise, to be a waste of space. As for going shopping together, christ, it's hard enough doing it for myself! I see that as an incompatibility issue though, not anything else.

Objectively, from a society point of view, I couldn't care less and if I saw a man walking down the street dressed as above, it wouldn't bother me at all, beyond wondering why he'd be arsed when, lets face it, dressing in black trews and a shirt with no make-up imperative is so godam easy, who'd willingly take another, more hassle option when he didn't need to?!

People have made very valid and interesting points on this thread though.

Hiding I fully relate to you--it was inexcusable for your dh to hide that from you.

unicorn72 Sun 29-Jul-12 21:44:57

Ilovedaintynuts .. just for the record I DONT feel humiliated and certainly dont feel I am being emotionally abused far from it and I am speaking for someone you lived in a emotionally abused marriage I am more happy now then I have ever been I feel supported and feel loved oh and before you flame me by thinking that I must be some poor little women that would be happy to be with anyone I was single for 6 years after my marriage as i didnt want a tosser again my dp is a loving man who likes to dress in women clothes. There is no sexual issue I have known my parnter for many years as friends through a of place of work that we both worked in. however it wasnt untill some years later that we clicked and began dating I am not a sad women who was desparte for love and took the first person who showed any intrest in me far from it like you said its YOUR view and this is MINE

calikid Sun 29-Jul-12 22:21:03

I'd like to make it clear that i am not seeking any form of validation as offred puts it as i have all the validation i need from my wife already, and franky, that is why i told her just after getting together as I had a fair idea what her reaction would be and it gave her the chance to make her own mind up. In any case if she'd reacted differently we wouldn't now be married. but offred i like your following comment in response to hellymellys nonense. she says that i wouldn't look "gorgeous", well i never claim to look gorgeous, but i do look good. There are countless women who try to dress up and get it completely wrong, just wander down any high street on a saturday night and they are there in their droves!

Its gone 10pm now and the OP isn't back? Still working on his extension (pun intended)? I was going to say oo sounds like a great idea - thinking David Bowie/Eddie Izzard and the ultimate (well for me anyway) - Tim Curry in Rocky Horror Show. But I don't think that's what the OP is getting at. If a male partner wanted to do that and it wasn't a sexual thing, then I don't know how I'd cope. I'd probably be very superficial and say it would only be ok if they looked good dressed. Not sure how helpful that is, probably says more about me than any cross dressing man!

Oh sorry - whilst I was typing the OP came back blush

TheSmallClanger Sun 29-Jul-12 22:24:04

calikid, your bitchy little aside about women on the high street has damaged your credibility somewhat.

Met a lot of TS and TG on the scene and I have to say that not all parody women, many of them get unbelievably upset about not being feminine in places, and can overcompensate in others to try and move the focus, lots of them wear regular women's clothes and pants, and yes lots of them dress up to the max when out in a club, but then I guess lots of women do too on a night out. I always enjoyed getting prettied up, the way heels made me walk (when I could walk in them), and how I felt when I was wearing nice clothes.

I am of the opinion that if it doesn't hurt anyone, why does it matter so much? I get in a long term relationship that a sudden coming out can be devastating to deal with, and yeah can see why there is a negative response there as it's a very big change for most. Much in the way that if I was married for ten or fifteen years and came out with a fetish that took over my sex life that the other partner didn't enjoy at all, I would expect there might be some change in our dynamic, to the point of the relationship breaking down.

But I don't see why cross dressers of any sort should get a hard time simply for what they wear/look like.

I enjoy lots of stuff most people wouldn't consider as the norm - men in drag, or latex, or leather, even in cling film and custard if that's what pleases them, I love the vivacity and difference, and the freedom to express who they are and what makes them feel happy. Cos-play, furries, goths, lolitas, doms in leather pants and a waistcoat with their "utility belt", even dollies, whatever... I've met lots of interesting people with alternative outlooks on life, and I don't think it should be condemned simply because it is not the norm in society. Norms change anyway, as I recall women have changed the "norm" vastly in the past couple of hundred years, so have homosexual people more recently, perhaps cross dressing and kink will be next.

calikid Sun 29-Jul-12 22:26:23

one of the sentiments appears to be the deception involved. whilst not all of us deceive and are totally open with our partners it is understandable why many would be when alot of the comments say, i'm ok with crossdressing as long as its not in my back yard! the gamble of losing everything is too much and leads to the very deception that then becomes the issue.

unicorn72 Sun 29-Jul-12 22:27:23

well calikid i agree with you there are alot of cds that look stunning (my dp has legs to die for you) and gets lots of nice comments from girls when we go out if you want to pm me thats fine myself and dp have been following this tread with intrest smile hugs to you Calikid and your GG x

calikid Sun 29-Jul-12 22:34:40

it wasn't meant to be bitchy just a comparative that not all men look ridiculous in skirts and not all women look good in them, no offence intended

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere Sun 29-Jul-12 22:35:30

I dont think 'not in my backyard' is an appropriate phrase to use.
That implies some sort of hypocrisy.

I would not be attracted to my OH in women's clothing. I do not find it appealing.
I do not (as already mentioned) like the way some CD dress in a 'idealised' male version of femininity.

Apart from that - I dont find CD disgusting, perverted or wrong in anyway. I dont think less of anyone who does it.

It is hardly shocking to someone who grew up in the 80s around Soho.

likeatonneofbricks Sun 29-Jul-12 22:36:46

OP, do you do anything with your hair? i find skirts/sarongs look best on men with longer hair/ponytails, but very jarring with a trad cut.

Offred Sun 29-Jul-12 22:46:46

I don't get why you are posting or why you have written all the stuff about being "a normal bloke" though if that isn't why?

Offred Sun 29-Jul-12 22:49:33

I think "not in my backyard" is the perfect description and it is rich to attack him about the comment he made which was only a counter argument to the numerous points people have made about finding the look of cd men [insert numerous negative comments here] and tbh I think it is fair enough.

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere Sun 29-Jul-12 22:55:02

I dont agree about the NIMBY comment.
I think its hostile to people who are not being hostile about CD.
Surely not being attracted to CD is no more a choice than being attracted to CD?

Doesnt mean you are against it. Not wanting your OH to do it is not quite the same thing as NIMBY. If any of my DSs did it my only worry would be for their safety. I wouldnt kick them out or disown them.

calikid Sun 29-Jul-12 22:58:46

you're right MrsDeVere, it does imply hyprocrisy and I retract that term of phrase, I guess its just that alot of the sentiment i believe comes from the fact that alot of women picture what their partners would look like dressed and made up as women and don't like the image. I understand that and in truth be told I would think alot of my mates might look equally odd dressed. However, the reason many cds attempt to appear as much like women as possible is so they can attempt to "pass" in order to blend in so as not to solicit ridicule and or physical abuse which unfortunately is an ever present danger when out in public. also they are less recognisable when made up and thus less likely to be outed to a wider public. I would prefer to be able to dress without the additional need to add wig, make up etc and have done so in the past in public. I have even been to my local council office in a skirt when i lived in london many moons ago, however now that i am settled in rural community with kids that is no longer an option as i wouldn't want to jeorpardise my familys lifestyle

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere Sun 29-Jul-12 23:04:21

I think it is a shame (in the real sense of the word) that you cannot just dress the way you want to without fear of danger.

Why the hell shouldnt you wear a skirt?

There is an older man who lives near me who dresses like an older woman. We are in London but not in the most sophisticated of areas so that must take some nerve. I hope he doesnt get too much hassle.

I feel that the hysteria around CD is mixed up with homophobia.
Its all a bit crap really.

calikid Sun 29-Jul-12 23:14:02

to be fair DeVere, although i have received some verbal abuse, usually from a bunch of young lads, I have never been threatened, but if you do search on google its very clear that violence against cd s is a real danger and should be considered when deciding where and where to go

I know of a couple of people who CD who have been assaulted. One was mugged quite violently, so it does exist, which is really quite saddening.

calikid Sun 29-Jul-12 23:26:31

you make a good point about the confusion between gay and cd, i guess its easy for the uninformed to make assumption when in fact there are no more gays who are cd s than there are gay in society as a whole. Again it may be as a result of cds feeling the need to fully present as women in oredr to blend in whereas if skirts where more accepted for men then would not be the case.

I guess we still have alot of work to do and perhaps our grandsons will reap the benefits some hot summers day in and cool and flowy skirt!

unicorn72 Sun 29-Jul-12 23:28:20

well said Calikid smile

calikid Sun 29-Jul-12 23:46:31

likeatonofbricks, i have very short hair, no.1 or less, but in my opinion that doesn't make a blind bit of difference. There are plenty of women with really short hair and they can look fabulous. But of course they are allowed to wear what they want and don't have to manufacture some false image in order to attempt to conceal their real identity for fear of recrimmination. previously i would have gone out as is but in my situation now that would be inappropriate, so if i go to a meeting It is in wig and full make up. Most cds also adopt a femme name but to be fair I couldn't be bothered as I am who I am and I don't want to change that

TheSmallClanger Sun 29-Jul-12 23:49:22

There's an interesting difference between "skirts for men" and "cross-dressing". There are folks out there who are men who like wearing non-trouser garments, and women who find such outfits attractive. They mostly gravitate towards the kilt, the sarong, or goth/alternative styles involving versions of them, sometimes explicitly marketed as alternative menswear. Some of these people would be incensed to be described as transvestites, although it is something they do encounter.

Likewise, there are men who enjoy wearing more "sensuous" fabrics, without the desire to wear dresses or skirts. My own DH is happy with trousers, but he does like to wear silk and velvet occasionally, because of the way it feels and looks. It's not because it's feminine.

I've always understood the point of cross-dressing to be wearing garments explicitly intended for the opposite of one's own biological or everyday gender. Also, within that category, there are men who enjoy occasional dressing up, either as part of sex, or just as something to do, and at the other end, there are those who dress full-time. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

The issues will be different depending on the situation, I suppose. Each of these "categories" will have their own problems, or not.

likeatonneofbricks Sun 29-Jul-12 23:50:32

I was thinking from pure;ly visual point of view that longer hair or ponytail goes better with long skirts, on women or men, just for balance of the look (not to appear very bottom heavy), but if you aer very good looking and have beautiful bone structure, then yes it can still look good.

likeatonneofbricks Sun 29-Jul-12 23:56:40

oh, and it depends how muscular you are on top half - if you are, then long skirt would definitely look better with a ponytail (no makeup). Ponytails are not artificial or effeminate on a man as the hair is coarse, they suit a lot of men generally. I think very short hair goes much better with straight knee length skirt on a cd-ing man (if he is slim, good legs).

likeatonneofbricks Mon 30-Jul-12 00:02:12

maybe Beckham, or a known male model should cross dress, I think we lack a role model who makes tasteful cross dressing (with no make-up/wig), look elegant. It doesn't have to be frills and sparkle and high heels at all, just tight fitting simply cut clothes, nothing ott. It's not clubby look but that's what OP is advocating, not having to hide the fact that he is a man.

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 00:03:02

yes to the latter, 5'10" and a size 10 so the skirts hang well. I tend to wear floaty knee length or just below, but do have a lovely straight just above the knee that used to be my wifes that got passed on

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 00:04:27

i like your logic ton of bricks

ouryve Mon 30-Jul-12 00:08:09

My own personal (not collective) opinion is along the lines of "whatever floats your boat" with the rider of "really, who can be bothered with tights and all that make up and hair faff?

That would be because most cross dressers are rather more glam than I am, though.

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 00:11:19

yes clanger ther are alot of skirt like garments marketed for men which try their hardest to differentiate themselves from the female variety. for me however, i don't see the attraction as its the sensual nature of silky skirts and and breeze around my legs when wearing that i find enjoyable. thick heavy manly type skirts don't afford this simple luxury.

likeatonneofbricks Mon 30-Jul-12 00:11:35

although i suppose not too tight a cut, unless the fabric is thick. Just form fitting smile. yes 5'10 and 10 is perfect actually for that look. You ar lucky that you aer not bulky, i think cds who are out of shape OR too muscular do have a problem and have to be creative. I do have an eye for right proportions OP smile. I think some designers would enjoy the challenge - and it will probably happen in not-so-distant future, things aer getting more and more androgynous in all aspects.

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 00:20:36

yes tonofbricks, its woven wool and lind so still feels nice! lined so you like it , isn't that the marketing blurb!
ouryve (interesting name) , most cds are glam coz if you're going for the look and feel you might as well go for most you can achieve

likeatonneofbricks Mon 30-Jul-12 00:26:17

'lined so you like it' grin

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 00:28:17

sorry, I dropped the e,(excuse the pun)

CogPsych Mon 30-Jul-12 00:32:56

If there's nothing wrong with it, then why are you asking strangers about it on an internet forum rather than just being content that your wife accepts it? And why wouldn't you tell your kids if it's a totally fine thing to do?

I'm cool with it for strangers like yourself (since i just don't care, really). I think it says a little about gender identity though, and for that reason i wouldn't be happy with my DH being into it.

ouryve Mon 30-Jul-12 00:47:23

Tonofbricks - DH's hair is much finer and softer than mine. Needless to say, the long hairs in the plughole most definitely aren't mine. I have a DS with longer hair, too. It just suits him so much. I am sometimes tempted to get a t-shirt printed "I'm not a girl, I'm a metalhead" though because so many people are pretty short sighted when faced with a male with long hair.

DH and I have had a couple of incidents of walking into a shop and having a flustered salesman (always) blunder "Er, can I help you, er, ladies?" I do have very short hair, most of the time and do dress in a mostly "androgynous" manner, albeit with a lot of bright pink, swathes of knitted lace in cold weather and flashes of obvious cleavage. So many people are so clearly bound by the stereotypical images of "man" and "woman" as outlined by the silhouettes on toilet cubicles, though.

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 00:51:01

i'm asking strangers on a forum in order to initiate a discussion. and yes i am content with my wifes attitude its just i'm not content with lots of other peoples, hence the thread. and as stated earlier in the discussion at present there is no need to involve the children as they are still young, both under the age of 10 and no need to introduce them to something which may confuse them. we as responsible parents guide their attitudes and understanding of the world and educate them about life , intolerance of ANY kind and in due course the can then form balanced opinions based on fact and not prejudice. I am not worried that they would not understand or love or respect me any less but they do not need to worry about that other people think there is something abnormal about their dad, which there isn't but unfortunately many uninformed people do

izzyizin Mon 30-Jul-12 01:29:53

Those silhouettes have often got me into trouble confused ouryve.

<<resolves to title memoirs 'Fifty shades of bog sewage'>>

I'm still unclear whether, when you're crossdressed, you're calikid wearing sensual women's clothing or whether you become calikidina wearing sensual women's clothing and exhibiting atypical female mannerisms.

Could you please clarify?

There are plenty of women with really short hair and they can look fabulous. But of course they are allowed to wear what they want and don't have to manufacture some false image in order to attempt to conceal their real identity for fear of recrimmination.

Don't you believe it! Women on the whole put so much work into doing femininity whether they have a #1 crop or long flowing locks. It's all about manufacturing a false image - flawless skin, exaggerated eyes and lips, gravity defying breasts, hairlessness ... all the way down to the stupid fucking shoes.

Lots of us women hate having to 'dress as a woman' and experience the pressure to do so as patriarchal oppression. It's a whole load of extra work that women have to do if they want to fit in. Its purpose is to differentiate us as the inferior sex class. Small wonder then that so many women have a visceral reaction to CD. It's politically impolite, to say the least.

If it's just a case of wanting to wear 'non-trouser garments' and other non-traditional attire then I'm 100% behind you - it's about time that men loosened up on their clothing rules. The ball's in your court though, don't expect women to fight your battle for you - we have enough on our plates.

TheDoctrineOfEnnis Mon 30-Jul-12 02:08:04

Great post, Plenty.

Offred Mon 30-Jul-12 07:35:35

Plenty's post one thing I am irritated by and find the first post hostile and want you to clarify your reason for posting because it feels like goading to me and I find it a bit insulting that a. I am effectively being lumped in with "the rest of women" and b. being collectively lumped in with MN which is being accused of being anti-cd... Now it may be true that second one overall but I am not, I literally have no feelings about it, I've had cd bfs I don't care either way about it. I don't find it remarkable, I don't want to stop people talking about it or doing it. My first bf was cd, he is very confident about it, he has never been beaten up over it, he doesn't "try to pass" and never has.

I think re the children by keeping it a secret you are teaching them that you think it is abnormal, children normally cope much better by being included rather than excluded from things so if/when you tell them they may be angry at you for excluding them from your life and something which is important to you, it is likely they will look at it in a "dad didn't trust us enough" or "I don't know who he is anymore" way if they are going to take it badly than "this is abnormal and society won't accept it". Small children especially learn "normal" primarily from home. The only reason I wouldn't tell them if it was my family is if it was a sexual fetish.

I still don't understand the point of writing all those things, primarily assuming hostility, about being a "blokey bloke" and not telling the children unless you are seeking validation. I just feel a bit offput by it because it is effectively saying to me, I am coming on here to try to convince MN and "the rest of women" to not be anti-cd. See how normal and blokey I am, see how I am protecting my children which is basically portraying that you think cd is ok providing it is a secret that children are protected from and providing it is a "normal bloke" that is doing it... As empowering posts go it really isn't great and actually it perpetuates stereotypes and discrimination in itself and actually is a bit unfair to MN really because it is more likely to receive hostile responses what with it being hostile itself.

unicorn72 Mon 30-Jul-12 07:47:01

My dp is so wanting a shoe desinger to design a kitten heel but with. Steel toe tap so when hes a she she can can wear heels for work lol think the op is trying to show that just beacause he cross dresses he is not a demon etc and does mascline role model too its a hard explain but i get you op as my dp does x

JennyPiccolo Mon 30-Jul-12 07:56:15

I wouldn't care if my dp wanted to wear women's clothes. As long as he was happy.

Offred Mon 30-Jul-12 08:04:52

But that is the thing unicorn. That is the thing. Plenty's post about this assumption about "being female" and his op about "being male"... It does not empower or assert confidence about cd.

I know there is a big spectrum of cd (right up to tv), a whole myriad of individual reasons for doing it, some people like the clothes/fabrics, some like how they look, some have a sexual fetish, some like to have an alter ego and "be a woman", there's probably as many reasons as there are people and so I don't see how a. MN can provide a judgement on it and b. why they should... It is just a car crash this post, I don't see what can come of it, it is equivalent to coming on saying for example: "I'm aware that MN recently has been hostile to bisexual men, I want to see what the rest of women think about it. I am a bisexual man, my wife is happy, I haven't told the children because we are protecting them and I do xyz "blokey" thing" cd is an element of someone not the sum total of them, not even the main element of them, each person is an individual and some of their choices can be pathological and hurtful to others some individuals are lovely and caring I believe there may be prejudice, similar to prejudices against women or against homosexuality but by relating to the issue in a "cd are or are not" way it doesn't help. Some cds are total twats, it isn't because they are cds it is because they are twats, some women are twats, it isn't because they are women. It is hard to explain but the post doesn't match up with the stated aims to me.

anairofhopeFORGOLD Mon 30-Jul-12 10:02:56

U havent answered any of my questions.

Fairenuff Mon 30-Jul-12 10:11:17

You haven't answered my questions either.

Not much of a debate tbh.

All you've done is respond to people who think the same as you, and talk about hairstyles and skirt length confused

The thing is, 'normals' don't discuss their sex lives with their DC. Your DC don't need to know that you like it up the arse, or never orgasm through oral; but people who are in some way unconventional are supposed to abandon all privacy?

Oh, and there is an interesting blog from a crossdressing heterosexual man.

Though if you are very sensitive, it should be approached with caution; the blogger is a stand-up comedian so it's quite sweary.

Offred Mon 30-Jul-12 11:39:34

Sgb - that's extraordinarily ignorant. It is not necessarily a sexual fetish.

Helltotheno Mon 30-Jul-12 11:46:08

Yes but, although I broadly understand all the reasons people have given for NOT telling the kids (and they're all valid), I do think that there's a much higher chance of a child 'absorbing' a behaviour as 'nothing strange' if it's part of their lives from the very start. The alternative is telling them... when? When they're 14, 15, 16? At the very time they're most susceptible to peer pressure and societal views?

With any of this stuff, I'm more of the view that kids should know, but should have boundaries around what they discuss at home versus outside, until such time as they're confident enough to deal with the reaction of others.

I agree with others OP, that you haven't really addressed the many questions that have been put to you, and that if you seriously wanted a meaningful debate rather than just to validate your choices, you would have answered those questions.

Offred Mon 30-Jul-12 11:56:37

Agree with you helltotheno.

Not necessarily, though it is for some people and it's percieved as one by others.

Offred Mon 30-Jul-12 15:56:22

Clearly!

TheSmallClanger Mon 30-Jul-12 16:14:52

The thing that SGB brought up about children and them knowing about their parents/caregivers' sexual proclivities highlights some of the differences between recreational cross-dressers, cross-dressers of the fetish variety, TVs who are more into having a female alter ego, and men who feel confined by trousers and want to wear skirts for comfort and appearance reasons. All of these would need to be broached differently with children, family members and friends. I don't think children need to know about fetish games adults play in bed, but there might come a time to know about dad/grandad/Uncle Pete's female alter ego, if the man involved is passing publicly where other people the children know will see him. Likewise, if dad/grandad/Uncle Pete decides that trousers trap his widger too much and takes to wearing a Fijian sarong (if he isn't Fijian/similar origin), that needs to be discussed in a different way.

anairofhopeFORGOLD Mon 30-Jul-12 16:36:18

Do non-cd tell their children about cd tv and gay/stright couples?

I do and will continue to talk to my children about all the differet people and cultures and choices that make up the human race. I dont see the point in not telling ur children and not wearing what you want in your own home all the time.

I really wouldnt worry what other people think but i would expect to have to answer a few question by your childrens friends parents and to reassure them a bit.

You are lieing to your children and not showing them to respe t other peoples choices or to be open minded or to have confidence in who you are.

Also do you just wear skirts out side to feel the breeze or do you also wear them inside as well?

Do you wear womens underwear all the time as noone can see them?

Do do you think men see you? Do you think men and women see you differently?

Fairenuff Mon 30-Jul-12 16:54:50

My dc know about cross dressers, drag queens, gay & tv. Not sure how young there were when we first discussed things like this but it would just come up. For example, they watched Mrs Doubtfire aged about 7 or 8 I think and that raised a few questions.

Lots of 12 year olds watch Friends and in that programme Chandler's 'dad' is a woman.

In an episode of Miranda she got mistaken for a man in drag.

These are not taboo subjects and, provided it's not done for a sexual reasons, I don't see why it can't be discussed with the children.

Offred Mon 30-Jul-12 17:31:29

My dc know about different sexualities, different cultures, not yet discussed in depth cd, have talked about tv - eldest is 7. Will talk about it when it comes up. Don't have a problem with it or with kids knowing. Sexual fetishes are a different thing.

piprabbit Mon 30-Jul-12 17:43:18

Cross-dressing in theory isn't an issue for me at all.
In the specific case of my DH, I would be very shocked. I would need to take a long look at our relationship and the trust is was based on. The same would be true if he suddenly revealed any other, previously secret, activities that meant a lot to him and which he had not shared with me.
For example, if I found out my DH supported a football team and was a season ticket holder, this would be so far away from the man I met and fell in love with, who was apparently uninterested in sport but who had been taking steps to keep his real interest secret, that I would feel very shaken and unsure about our future together.

Offred Mon 30-Jul-12 17:44:47

To demonstrate a point my dcs don't have to be protected from the existence of shoes just because some people have a sexual fetish involving them.

Offred Mon 30-Jul-12 17:47:55

I wouldn't be questioning the relationship if my DH revealed he secretly cd tbh. In our relationship it is fine for us to have private lives, I get why people might feel betrayed if their relationship involved sharing everything.

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 18:49:03

Plenty, I'm fully aware of the pressures on women to conform to the idealised image of femmininity , and yes for most this takes alot of hard work. i am a very strong advocate of womens rights and the need to try to deconstruct this social structure we have which sets such high expectations. I do have 2 daughters and i would like them to have the freedom to express themselves in any way they choose without predjudice or social pressure. my dw has her own career at which she works very hard and i'm very proud of her for that, she is setting a great role model for the girls, as are countless other women in our society. pressures upon women in no way diminish the similar pressures on men to conform to their stereotypical masculine role, and that is the point i'm trying to make. we don't expect you to fight our battles for us, but merely to support the fight in the same way as many men support women in their battles. we shouldn't be fighting each other but together we can be stronger

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 18:59:49

as regards the issue of whether or not to tell the kids about my satorial proclivities, we decided rightly or wrongly some time age that we would not. from what i remember of the conversation , it was the suggestion of dw, although she does accept that at some stage in the future we probably will. I don't particularly see this as a deception or a lie as there are plenty of things thats plenty of parents keep from their kids. Thats not to say we aren't totally open with them as to the full range of types of people and relationships that exist. If they come across something and ask a question we don't shy away and avoid answering honestly. Logic being that if they are old enough to ask the question they are old enough to get the answer.
we are confident that we can guide the and educate them sufficiently so they develop informed views based on the truth and not on ignorance and predjudice. fingers crossed

izzyizin Mon 30-Jul-12 19:26:46

It would seem that your 'sartorial proclivities' cause you to chose clothing which 'conforms to the idealised image of femininity'.

I ask the question again. Does crossdressing enable you to exhibit a feminine persona or alter ego? Or do you simply stride around in a pencil skirt and high heels?

anairofhopeFORGOLD Mon 30-Jul-12 19:40:38

Im not going to engage any more untill my questions have been answered even in a general none personal manner.

<stamps my stupidly expensive stilleto heels and pouts my ruby red lips>

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 19:46:22

the idealised image of femininity to which I refer is of course merely a construct of society and the media, so to be frank , I don't actually hold any ideal image as the the range of femininity is so wide that it is impossible to pin down to a single one. That said , i merely dress in the style that makes me feel comfortable, nothing more. when i choose clothing it is for me and i wouldn't presume that it would be ideally suited to anyone else let alone everyone else.

Crossdressing, i suppose does allow me a feminine expression, but that is only because the clothes i would choose are presently intended for females. Were it that female clothing was accessible and accepted for all than it would no longer be a feminine expression but merely a personal expression. I guess the form of expression is determined by how the audience perceives it regardless of the wearers intention. as regards an alter ego, many cds choose a fem name for when deressed and going out. I have chosen not to do this and just use my own name

likeatonneofbricks Mon 30-Jul-12 19:54:04

Op did say that he's not bothered with an altered name, and he did go out once or twice without wig and makeup as that's what he would always prefer to do, but given the rural community they live in he now only goes to meetings, in wig etc, as it's a clubby thing. The whole point is that he IS a man with man's face and hair and figure but just wants the choice to wear sensual clothes that are made for women (i.e. skirts of slinky fabrics). I really like this notion of not taking on female persona, to me this is a deeper psychological issue and very confusing to a cd sexually and socially.

likeatonneofbricks Mon 30-Jul-12 19:57:46

I think it's also an artistic expression in case of OP, apart from how he feels in a tactile way, as he has the 'model's figure' with his proportions and looks probably quite stunning! male clothes just don't allow it, especially showing the legs/waist.

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 19:58:12

i prefer to wear them outside but of course i get much more opportunity to wear indoors, both of which i enjoy. and no i don't wear the underwear all the time, as i find its only in conjunction with the feeling of a skirt that adds to the sensuality.

good question about the difference between how men and women see me. I don't know to be honest. I would suspect that women would be more accepting as the wearing of skirts etc isn't alien to them, whereas many men might fight it totally mystifying why we would want to.of course another reason men might feel animosity is where cds attempt to present fully as women and this could be perceived in many ways. are they trying to undermine our masculinity, trap unsuspecting suitors...........you only have to watch a bit of jeremy kyle show and you get the picture.

but yes i'd be interested if there were any straight guys who want to give some input.

izzyizin Mon 30-Jul-12 20:00:25

You haven't answered my question.

Do you behave in what may be perceived by others in a 'feminine' manner when you are dressed up in women's clothinng i.e. do you exhibit what may be called a 'feminine' persona or behave in a manner that is markedly different to that which you exhibit when wearing male or unisex clothing?

Do you alter the way you walk or carry yourself? Do you hope that strangers/others will see you as being a woman rather than a man in drag?

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 20:00:26

thankyou tonofbricks, again you 've got the picture

AnyFucker Mon 30-Jul-12 20:21:45

OP, you are shamelessly only responding to the people who validate your choices and ignoring the ones that ask you direct questions

do you want a debate or a whitewash ?

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 20:34:06

yes i do walk differently when dressed as obviously, heels are very different than mens footwear and require a great deal more composure. Stairs are more of a challenge and of course sitting requires more care, ie not sitting with legs splayed.........not exactly appealing! so if that is what you mean by feminine manner then yes, but thats really as far as it goes, i don't attempt to feign femininity in order to appear more feminine. I just act and talk as normal.
as regards whether i want others to perceive me, if I'm out in full drag makeup etc, I would like to appear as a woman to strangers and blend in as do most cds but I 've got no allusions that this is always or perhaps even ever achievable, maybe at a distance! I would say its a defence mechanism hoping to avoid negative reaction, but i do enjoy it if i am read and get positive reactions. at a cd party or meeting i prefer that i am read as a cd.

but as i've said a couple of times already, my ideal situation would be to dress in the clothes but present fully as male with no issue, but where i'm at in life at present thats not really an option

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 20:36:37

i don't think i am , just read thru a few of my posts and you see i am trying to answer as candidly as i can. which direct questions are you suggesting i have avoided?

AnyFucker Mon 30-Jul-12 20:38:09

ooh, look. You answered them now smile

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 20:44:52

i apologise if i don't respond quick enough, but i'm being asked some porbing questions and it takes a bit of time to gather my thoughts and then try to write without sounding ambigious or evasive, please bear with me

2rebecca Mon 30-Jul-12 20:59:31

If a bloke I was going out with liked to cross dress I would expect this to come up fairly early in the relationship.
I could then ditch him.
My sexual fantasies about men don't involve them wearing make up and dresses.
Men in kilts are very sexy though. Why can't you just wear a kilt and pretend to be Scottish?
Many women spend most of their leisure time in trousers anyway and I rarely wear make up so don't accept that skirts and make up are "women's wear"
Tim Minchin wears make up, but I really hope he doesn't also like wearing tights and dresses. He is quite sexy.
In general it doesn't bother me if some men want to wear skirts and pretend to be women, I just wouldn't want a relationship with one.
.

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 21:12:24

rebecca, skirts and dresses are womens wear, but equally trousers and jeans are also womens wear! the reason they are set apart and called womens wear is because they are not at present intended for men. menswear is restricted to the latter, apart of course from kilts etc. I have had a kilt in the past but don't particularly like the heavy materials they are made from so i don't want to wear them. much in the same way that one person might like a cotton shirt and the next person might prefer satin.

pretending to be scottish in order to wear a kilt is no different in my opinion different from pretending to be a woman to wear a skirt, both scenarios involve an attempt to deceive.

unicorn72 Mon 30-Jul-12 21:18:36

"Do you behave in what may be perceived by others in a 'feminine' manner when you are dressed up in women's clothinng i.e. do you exhibit what may be called a 'feminine' persona or behave in a manner that is markedly different to that which you exhibit when wearing male or unisex clothing?

Do you alter the way you walk or carry yourself? Do you hope that strangers/others will see you as being a woman rather than a man in drag"

even though the op has answered this i will answer these from a female partner of a cd to give another view

Yes my dp does have a feminine persona not massivley differnet to his male side i tend to get more cuddles we talk more about feelings she does more housework etc she sits diffenently even when skinny jeans when in bars.

Yes my dp does alter her way of walking though that might be down to walking in high heels (which she is good at better than me ) and yes i belive chloe (my dp female name ) feels great when people double take and yes she has a female name when in female clothing and i often use it even when not in female mode as it gets her attention (waits to be flammed)

fluffyraggies Mon 30-Jul-12 21:19:54

Reading with interest, as i'd love to understand OP.

Lots of questions - but one jumps out: if it's about the comfortable, sensual swishy nature of skirts NOT the look of them or they're femininity, fair enough, but then - why high heels? That cant be a comfort thing. If it is a sensual thing with the shoes that's very definately bordering on the 'being a woman' for a while thing.

I'm sorry if i sound clumsy or crass. Just asking smile

AnyFucker Mon 30-Jul-12 21:22:02

"does more housework"

really ?

unicorn72 Mon 30-Jul-12 21:25:47

yes anyfucker does more cleaning of the bathroom puts clothes away etc

AnyFucker Mon 30-Jul-12 21:33:14

does he put the toilet lid down too ?

unicorn72 Mon 30-Jul-12 21:35:34

yes he does but he does anyway and just to let you know my ex husband who was a first class twat and not had a femminme bone in his body did too all the time

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 21:36:39

fluffy, why do the shoes make it more like being a woman. i definitely find the sensual feel of skirts are accentuated by the wearing of heels, don't you? That is if you are into skirts, i'm not making any assumptions! but shoes are only shoes, they don't come with a tag that says there wearer herein wants to be a woman.

rebecca, you find men in skirts unattractive but men in kilts attractive, surely the only difference in the two is that society deems kilts ok for men and skirts not. so it seems that you are allowing societys' predjudices to dictate your feeling on the subject. if all men had brown hair and all women had blond then suddenly your partner died his blond would you ditch him because he was not doing that which society deems to be appropriate?

anairofhopeFORGOLD Mon 30-Jul-12 21:37:02

Op are you confortable in your own skin?

Do you like the person you are? Are you at easy with yourself?

Tip: if you wear long skirts you can still sit with your legs open and boots are so much more sexyer than courts and can be worn with short or long skirts.

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 21:54:26

yes i am very comfortable with myself and if i had the choice to wipe my memory clean and not be cd anymore i wouldn't change it. and yes you're right boots are a very good option. In fact its what i wear most of the time. they are a pair that used to belong to dw and passed onto me. we're of similar proportions. in fact so much so at one point early in the relationship she even thought i might be with her because i could wear her clothes without a problem but i reassured her that it wasn't the case. but i guess all sorts of things would go through a partners mind until the whole situation is clarified.

i must point out also, that when i say i like heels , they tend to be more of the boot type high heel as opposed to fine point stilletoes. still a good 3" but much easier to walk in and i feel more suitable. but thats only my preference

anairofhopeFORGOLD Mon 30-Jul-12 21:59:51

Thanks for answering my questions.

Im glad you are happy as you. The only barriers in life are the ones we put there ourselves. Grow a thicker skin and start struting your stuff mate. Someone has to be the first why not you?

Has your wife read this.thread?

likeatonneofbricks Mon 30-Jul-12 22:05:04

I wonder whether your sexuality shifts somewhat on the days you cross-dress, say aer you less in the mood towards dw? I think that cd's who really take on a female persona would be best suited with a bi woman - not sure whether unicorn has such tendencies as she obviously likes discussing 'her' - it's kind of best of both worlds isn't it really (for those who is more attracted to men but has a leaning to bi sexuality). In case of OP he doesn't take on a persona which sound a lot more comfortable to my brain personally (even though I may have slight bi sexual leanings) but probably he appears more feminine than he thinks due to the figure type (not heavy). So it's interesting how you feel OP - are you put off when men give you looks from a distance, thinking you were a woman? do you even want to be sexual with anyone on these days?

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 22:12:57

no , she's not even on mn, but i'll probably show her it, she'd be very interested in all the views, as , i might add, am i. I'm a bit disappointed i haven't had any male feedback. have any of you discussed it with your partners to guage their perspective. i would assume it would range from support. to indifference to animosity and pity, but there you go , you can't please all of the people all of the time!

and thanks airforgold, i enjoy strutting my stuff, and when the kids are old enough and i can include then and no longer worry about the effect on them of the ingnorant in society then i can resort to being more open with support from the likes of you

unicorn72 Mon 30-Jul-12 22:17:27

likeatonneofbricks i am complety straight though i know alot of lesbains met alot when i was in the army but never wanted to be with a girl my chloe always takes her hair off when we do anything sexual and it took me while to be comtable with her wearing one when in female mode alot of the time she doesnt wear make up or a wig when in house female mode (only really when we do pics ) i type this and my chloe is sat watching telly with a nightie on but with no make up or wig on

anairofhopeFORGOLD Mon 30-Jul-12 22:20:18

Another question: how do you feel about the negative comments you have got?

Has a man ever chated you up and if so was it a compliment to you?

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 22:27:36

tonofbricks, no, i'm totally heteorsexual. for me, women are just too gorgeous to even consider any other option. and when you encounter someone like my dw who is not only physically attractive but a great mother, a hard working career woman and challenging on an intellectual level, what more could a man want.

and no, about the male attraction to me thing. i am aware that I have often been considered to have some androgynous qualities, and do attract attention from both men and women, but i don't find it disconcerting. on the contrary, isn,t everyone flattered by attention, its only the insecure who would be threatened by it. i'm totally as secure in my sexuality, and dw has totl trust in me. but its still nice to be considered attractive from whatever source it comes, it gives you a little boost every time it happens. if someone flirts with you tonofbricks, regardless of wheter you would ever even consider acting on it, i'm sure you would enjoy it would you not?

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 22:37:23

2nd question i think i've just answered.

as regards the negative comments. there haven't been as many as i thought there might. either because people haven't bothered or i have been able to counteract them b4 they really got going. but the ones i have got i just dismiss as ignorance and uninformed and rise above it coz at the end of the day i'm right for me and in due course just as with the abolition of slavery, womens voting rights, gay liberation,etc., the correct course for a civilised society will evolve. unfortunately, the evolution of society can be a slow moving machine and i might not reap the benefits, but we struggle on regardless

likeatonneofbricks Mon 30-Jul-12 22:41:48

unicorn, thank you for replying in such a measured way (not always the case on MN!). You must be a very loving person by nature - I think that's what makes you so open minded. I still don't see how do you accept 'her' wholly as a woman and cuddle etc as you describe and yet not feel like you aer cuddling a woman which would have a bisexual element (or at least not cuddling a man iylwim) - or do you switch to friendship mode when it's a 'she' in a wig as you still manage to be loving emotionally? as you say the sexual part works only with him without the accessories. Or is it the knowledge that she is never really a she, what with the anatimy, and you sort of feel sorry for dh?

likeatonneofbricks Mon 30-Jul-12 22:50:12

OP, I know you aer straight from all you've written, but aer you AS in the mood for sex when actually wearing the clothes, or less so - is your focus at that particular time off sex? do you feel like dw is not as in the mood when you aer dressed and htat in itself lowers interest? sorry if this is too personal.
Yes, I do like when people notice me in approving way or flirt - but..not if I find the person actively unattractive to look at (which doesn't always mean 'not good looking'), be it a man or a woman. are you scandinavian originally per chance (or dutch)?

likeatonneofbricks Mon 30-Jul-12 22:56:47

unicorn, another provocative question - why do you call your H 'she' when he is sitting there with no make up and wig as you just described, purely wearing a nightie? assuming his mannerisms at that time ar like man's. You see, I can relate to a man as a man when nothing changes APART from a piece of clothing - and that's what OP is like too. Does one piece of clothing make it impossible for you to see him as a man? I suppose it's a very complex issue for a partner.

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 23:02:04

unicorn, does your chloe feel the same as me, in that she/he would prefer to go out in female clothing without having to engage in all the trappings of wig, make-up etc. some posts posts have said that its alot of work for women to do full make up etc. well its the same for cds, or even more so as for a man to present as female : in order to try to pass is alot more difficult than for a female to dress and make up. and b4 i get flamed( i believe thats the correct term) i 'm not trying to undermine the effort it take you lafies!

anairofhopeFORGOLD Mon 30-Jul-12 23:06:22

I like this subject as its very mind bending as there really is so meny possables and question and answers and its different and.personal for everyone. You cant put it in a box as there are too many lables. Its all unqui.

I dont get 'it' but im open minded about everything and i could discuss this all night over a few bottles of wine....

But i dont want to treat OP like a fish in a fishbowl so im sorry if i was insensative.

unicorn72 Mon 30-Jul-12 23:07:26

likeatonneofbricks thankkyou for your kind comments i dont switch to friendship mode when chloe is about do still have kisses (it was a little wired at first when she had lippy on and yes i did strugle with what you mean by asking myself does this mean am i bi etc ) but i am ok now she uses those chicken fillets in bras for her boobs as socks were anyoing me when i cuddled up on the couch and it didnt feel comfy but the chicken fillets are fine she doesnt always use them (shes not in a bra at the minute though shes moisturing (sp) her legs at min)oh yeah she shaves her legs arms armpits and tummy in truth her wearing nighties has never bothered me either and wears them most nights inculding female underwear its makes her relaxed and happy.
when she is in female mode i still hold hands when out like when we went to sparkle this year i dont feel sorry for dp she doesnt want to become a women as she is not transexual
Sexual we have a good relationship she wear females underwear all the time( the boxers have been at the bottom of drawer for months nowsmile ) and sometimes do start off with her with the wig on but she takes it off propley more for comfort though i wouldnt mind having sex with her with the wig if she asked as i am comftable with my own sexuailty it very hard to expalin to someone outside the only ppl that seem to understand fully is other GG (genuine girl) of cd partners though i am making a genralzation here maybe i am just crap at expalining

likeatonneofbricks Mon 30-Jul-12 23:16:22

unicorn thank you for being generous with the personal sunject like this, there is nothing wrong with being slightly bi though is there? maybe you are but not enough to actually be with a woman, but enough not to mind the visual side and calling her she. I don't know why do you always say 'she' and not once so far 'he' - it's still a he you know, or do you find it hard to switch from she to he when you talk about dp, or possibly because dp prefers to be called a 'she' most of the time? as i say, I think OP is much more straight forward, as he is always a he, just likes to wear the clothes.

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 23:17:51

no its not too personal, its totally in tangent with the thread. i think she knows that i am enjoying the sensuality of the dressing up and that oftens leads to sex, but just as often it is just an habitual thing and we go to bed as per a normal working night and straight ot sleep. so its swings and roundabouts. but no it neither puts me off nor is a guarantee of passion.

she likes me in a skirt, but it doesn't become a part of any role play, likewise i like her in a skirt but she doesn't come to bed dressed either, maybe we're just too conventional, but we toss the clothes to the side, or rather i do and she puts hers away tidily!! hows that for conventional role play!

unicorn72 Mon 30-Jul-12 23:22:21

likeatonneofbricks right just spoke to chloe and got :S face lol when chloe first started to come round we would do a secne like thing of me saying bye to dp before he would got to spare room and come back as chloe when we would have a little chat asking about the week that was wired but kinda of funny i would get names mixed up too now that chloe is around most of the time even without wig and make up as we both work and do get tired at night so not always in the mood to dress fully i just call out to chloe i still seen the man but know she likes to be called chloe when in nighties etc as it is her here not dp in boxers x if that makes sense i guess when shes wearing a nightie etc she is here so i call her by her female name x it is complex and never really had to think about about it like that i just call her chloe she used to have a old spare phone and i would tx her if she went to work (ie wearing underwear and stockings under male clothing ) instead of my dp but its easier using my dp phone and cheaper. it is hard to explain we accpet what it is and happy which is very important to us both as we both had car crash lives

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 23:24:14

forgold, don't worry about the fish bowl thing, i wouldn't have posted the original post if i didn't think i'd be under the microscope, the whole idea was to solicit discussion and challenge opinion. throughout the discussion you have been very informative and productive with your views and that is valued

anairofhopeFORGOLD Mon 30-Jul-12 23:26:35

Do you think the trill will end and.the need to up it will grow? Like taking it to the next step and if so what would be the next step?

unicorn72 Mon 30-Jul-12 23:36:14

just asked my dp and was told been called chloe when in female mode is nice (in truth we disscussed if "she" would need a female name and i chose it within 3 months of being together ) i call dp by her female name sometimes in shops to get attatention not to be nasty or for attention seeking but its hard looking for clothes and saying it in third person and i get confused (which doesnt take much these days)
we do drab nights with a few local cds and at a pub we all call each other by the female name as on the website where we met and i have said loudly chloe do you want a drink somtimes as its easier to get her attention (shes in drab but with female underway on ) but for me when dp is wearing nightys etc she is in female mode and so call her by her given name there is nothing wrong with being bi gay etc i guess i see pass the clothes and see the human being that loves me for my faults and who has supported.

calikid Mon 30-Jul-12 23:37:32

i don't think it will ever end, i enjoy wearing these clothes and thats it, in the same way as i enjoy watching football. its not like rollercoasters where once youv'e conquered one beast you have to move onto something bigger and better to maintain the thrill/fear factor (i do love rollercoasters by the way, but thats a whole different thread, maybe star that one soon!)

but in the meantime i suppose all the steps are towards to goal of total acceptance............a very long road I fear

likeatonneofbricks Mon 30-Jul-12 23:42:41

unicorn - you mean face like that regarding my question 'why is never 'he'? so is it very rarely now that you cal him a 'he'? yes, the main thing that you are happy, especially as it's so hard to find the right person who accepts the quirks of any unconventional kind. It's great, he must think the world of you.

OP, yes, that's just such a great illustration of your situation. I think many postres didn't 'get' it for a while. The tossing of clothes vs her being neat (not that all women fold them, but still) is just again emphathising your point that you can be a man in all respects, including cinventional sex life, but still enjoy cross dressing. To be fair plenty of women dress like guys, especially it seems on hot days (sandals, loose t shirts and cropped pants - I'm not a fan of the look but it's not the point) and are women in all aspects otherwise. I can see myself being with a partner like that (but he would HAVE to look good in those clothes), but I couldn't be with the one who takes on the persona as I would still feel he wants to be a woman, despite of what he claims - rightly or wrongly. With the man who just dresses and looks great it can be quite exciting (if he doesn't dress in bed, as far as i'm concerned).

unicorn72 Mon 30-Jul-12 23:50:24

likeatonneofbricks i didnt do a mean face i read out your post to my dp and i got a confused look hence the :s look thats all when dp is in male mode he is his male name when he is wearing female clothes he becomes a she and so i call her chloe and yes she is around a lot however for our 2 yr ansiversary chloe went away for a few days so i and my dp could have a few days toegether (if that makes sense) i didnt ask dp to do that he just did it also when something happened a year ago he was in male mode as he wanted to comfort me in male mode

likeatonneofbricks Mon 30-Jul-12 23:58:32

interesting, unicorn, so he is very sensitive to which occasion calls for what - and can choose who to be so it's not uncontrollable. Very illuminating as i never talked to anyone in your situation. I find the psychology on unconventional people very interesting. Tolerance is def the way to go!

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 00:00:23

tonofbricks, am i beginning to win you over or were you always on side, sorry, but i can't remember your earlier posts, but you sound nice and open hearted. and yes i can be a normal man in respect of dumping the clothes at the side of the bed. it irritates my dw but its just too easy to leave it to deal with in the morning. then i wake up and trip over them, and yes of course she's right. i know, i know.....very male attitude, i'm sorry, but you'll be glad to know i don't put wet towels on the bed any more, she's managed to work that one out of me!

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 00:01:20

it just shows that even gender is a matter of mind over anatomy, for some cds.

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 00:04:48

can u elaborate

unicorn72 Tue 31-Jul-12 00:07:06

likeatonneofbricks thankyou when recently we had my daughter vist for a few days dp was in male all the time apart from wearing undies it took me all day to remove chloes clothes and pack them away (its our desicion to not to tell my daughter she doesnt live with us and we have skipped around the idea but its not the right time at the minute ) and by the time she left my dp was despatre to become chloe lol think its cos i let chloe come and go as she please and put no resritections for her being here like lots of people do sadly

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 00:07:10

haha OP, I pretty much understood what you aer about from the start and liked it, as to me it's easier to understand than 'she' cds who become a woman, I thought all cds are like that. I'm tolerant of all cds but just couldn't see myself as a partner, whereas with the type that you personify, I could. You did win me over though more gradually once you described your taste in clothes and your looks - I can picture how great it can look, not like most cds you see on tv, and I don't see any in rl but i can imagine easily how it can look great the way you described, minus wig and makeup and ott jewellery. It sort of got my creative thinking going! so thanks. Also i think it can be a turn on if you like the person obviously, but not sure whether it's do with my slight bi tendency (not acted on so far) or not.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 00:11:14

that was about unicorn post that her P thinks he's a woman once in the clothes and wants to be called 'she' - while his anatony is not changed. I.e, it's the mind that decides. Not that I completely can imagine that from his point of view, but I'm getting there. If i dressed in a man's outfit I'd still want to be called a 'she' - I still think he wants to be a woman, but unicorn says not.

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 00:12:32

i honestly don't think its anything to do with a bi tendency. more that if you find someone attractive and even more if you find them intellectually challenging, that can be a great stimulant when combined

anairofhopeFORGOLD Tue 31-Jul-12 00:16:41

Lol

i put wet towles on the bed, all my clothes are on the floor, i joined the mn fantasy football thing last year, i like rollacosters, i like boots (funky rocket dog or dr martins) i do all the diy in our house, i even sand and paint the fence and mow the lawn. I always wear jeans and tshirt uless im going to churt or xmas party or wedding reception - then i wear long black skirts lol

my husband is 5"11 and size 8, does all the cooking ironing and pack lunches and agreeded to a cleaner. He works in a female dominante office and has more girls as friends then men. He also likes rollacoasters but he has never warn a skirt or a dress and has no desire to or is he gay or bi.

We just dont put genders in certain rolls. We have a ds and dd. Our dd is 8 month old and wears sons sleeps suits and son likes ribbons in his hair and hairbands and likes hovering and doing the washing with me.

We believe in the indiviual and not the object or activity lol (but im sercratly hoping my dd will be a fighter pilot and ds a actor grin)

anairofhopeFORGOLD Tue 31-Jul-12 00:21:18

*nor is he gay or bi.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 00:22:42

Op, probably nothing to do with it, but purely visually I've been attracted to random women when they look elegant and this is what's lacking in most men, this way you have a man (so the sexual side is familiar) but with a certain extra which most men don't offer - see what i mean? but as i saif it would have to be a man with a very particular look and an appeal as a person (i.e. i could be in love with as a person) - I wouldn't be up for it as a casual experiment sexually, just surprised myself thinking it could turn me on if the person was right - and surprised enjoying thinking of the outfits that could suit him grin!

anairofhopeFORGOLD Tue 31-Jul-12 00:22:54

Of course its about the indiviual and everyone is different. So why care about what clothes you wear as long as your a nice guy!

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 00:23:58

airofhope, i don't think you need to hope anymore, I think you've already struck gold

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 00:25:23

it's just going by the posts of women who aer 100% straight (or bear that) they all say it wiould put them off sexually as it's not masculine, so any degree of bi tendency helps i think but that's just my opinion.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 00:25:35

*or near that

anairofhopeFORGOLD Tue 31-Jul-12 00:26:54

The lead singer in the band poecbo(sp?) who signs every me and every you and nancyboy has the look. He can pass as male or female. He is very good looking blush

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 00:33:13

tonofbricks, yes sexuality is multifarious. i believe there are the classic good looking men and women, and then there are also the androgynous good lookers who have that little bit extra who challenge the most conservative, even if they don't admit it. attractive to all, that is the ultimate, even if there is no intention to follow thru. marc bolan springs to mind!

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 00:57:38

do a search for andrej pejic, a young male super model who fashions womens clothes and is one of the most sought after models in the world of fashion. extremelly beautiful. great to look at. I wouldn't go to be with him because of the fact he has male anatomy, but great to look at in wonder ander no doubt would be alluring to be in the presence of. like a great piece of art, great to admire but wouldn't want to settle down and start a family with!

anairofhopeFORGOLD Tue 31-Jul-12 01:00:24

So there aee cd role modles.

(soz about spelling im dyslexic and tired no a great combo)

anairofhopeFORGOLD Tue 31-Jul-12 01:17:07

Have you had a sexual relationship with a man?

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 01:26:27

no, never, i have on many occasions enjoyed the flirtatious approaches of men, when in both male and female clothing but only when it has been in controlled environment. only ever on one occasion was it uncomfortable (in a skirt at the time), in a bar i was pestered and on leaving got cab and was followed and had to tell cabbie to lose the cab behind! he did thankfully and all was well, don't know how it might have ended but i do teach martial arts aswell so if it came to it i would be prepared to fight my ground, heels or not! shudder the thought of the state my stockings would have ended up!

anairofhopeFORGOLD Tue 31-Jul-12 01:31:30

Fighting in heels and tights has never been a problem for me. Climbing fences in tights yes building dens yes but kicking a guy nope never snagged my tigjts ever smile

anairofhopeFORGOLD Tue 31-Jul-12 01:32:24

At what age did you start cd?

When was your first time lol

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 01:50:40

in all of this thread you're the first to have asked me that question, which i believe is one of the most pertinent! truth is i don't really know, but its' as far back as i can remember. I am the youngest of 4 brothers and my mum made no secret of the fact she wished i had been a girl to complete the family! so therein, in my opinion was the start of it. perhaps as a young child i tried to fulfill her expectations. i remember experimenting trying on her slips then progressing to her skirts. and although i developed henceforth through puberty into and normal heterosexual male, by that time i had already discovered the pleasure of female clothing and its sensuality. and to this day that has never left me, and why should it. In that respect i should thank her for opening a door to which i believe most males have never been given. I don't want to be the daughter that she never had, but i'm glad that i've learnt to love a wider range of expression i might not have had, had i not had the "suggestion" implanted at such a tender age. its' just a theory as i don't really know why i started, i'm just glad i did

anairofhopeFORGOLD Tue 31-Jul-12 01:54:35

I will think about your answer and comment later (or ask another question no doubt)

Goodnight

fluffyraggies Tue 31-Jul-12 07:30:32

cali - thank you for answering my Q last night. I was so interested but couldnt stick around as i was sooo tired.

Although the moment has passed somewhat smile ... the shoes thing intrigued me precisely because of the fact that - yes, i love my killer heels with skirts (or jeans) and i when wear them i feel very feminine and sexy in them. Plus, tbh, i like it because i know that my DH (as do allot of guys) find them sexy as well. But - i don't wear them round the house, (unless i'm about to go out) or to Tesco, or out with the kids, as they're not practical or particularly comfortable. I'm talking 'high st.shop' heels here btw, River Island, Faith, or whatever, not fetish shoes.

Anyway - hence my thoughts about heels lurking in the grey area between wanting to wear women's clothes for non sexual reasons - and wearing women's clothes to feel like a woman while wearing them. Which to my mind is more than just expressing the choice to wear anything you like.

Sorry that was long and rambling.

You asked about male reactions to your post. Well i was reading some of the thread to my DH last night. His very first words were - "who on earth has told him he looks good in a skirt?" and then "I wonder when he started this, bet it was something to do with his mum". Beyond that there were just allot of mutterings about it being "Not right". Oh and "He's a builder!? <laughing and eye rolling>" (DH is a brick layer)

He was interested - but in a more 'horrified fascination' way. Personally i have nothing in the world against people doing whatever makes them happy. As long as they're not deceiving anyone (and being responsible regarding their children, as you are) then live and let live is my motto. I applaud you for exploring this on MN.

I must add I couldn't live with my DH doing it though i'm afraid. I do like a man to be a man.

anairofhopeFORGOLD Tue 31-Jul-12 08:51:50

Do you have a very creative side? Do you like acting role playing?

Does your mum or dad know you are a cd?

5inabed Tue 31-Jul-12 09:43:52

I would find it a huge turnoff and it's not because of "society". I have never seen a cross dressing male who actually looks female if that is the goal, they always just look like a man in a dress. If it's about "sensual" materials then why does it have to be a dress or skirt? Why not get a shirt or something made in the material you like? I really don't see how any woman could have sex with her husband while not being able to get the image of him in a dress out of her head, I certainly couldn't. If my 6"1 well built husband suddenly started dressing in a skirt it would be a deal breaker for me.

Fairenuff Tue 31-Jul-12 10:25:12

I'm a bit disappointed i haven't had any male feedback

Maybe that's because you said I'm curious to know how the rest of women feel about the issue

have any of you discussed it with your partners to guage their perspective. i would assume it would range from support. to indifference to animosity and pity

Without a doubt, the overwhelming majority on this thread have expressed indifference. Perhaps it's not such a big a deal as you think it is.

It's a shame that you haven't answered my questions yet. I haven't learned anything new from your responses so far, other than even when cross dressing it still seems to be the woman's role to do most of the cleaning.

Have a nice life.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 10:30:33

Just had a look at Andrej Pejic - unbelievable! it's exactly the kind of look I was talking about that could attract me, I equally like slightly andgogynous female models (i.e. the only type of woman i could get attracted to on superficial level). He IS so beautiful chiselled features, figure.
Sinabed if you haven't seen a man who looks great in women's getup , then have a look! though admittedly he looks very young which helps. I'd like to see him without the long blond hair and makeup though - as I'm sure he can do both.
Of course it's always to do with parents, most of our quirks, fluffy.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 10:37:19

sorry, meant '5inabed' grin
Fairenuff - why should the housework be part of it, Op said repeatedly that he doesn't take on a persona, I would think that in itself is something new to learn! it was for me.
Also the singer from Suede used to look good in andrigynous way though not like the model, but he was attractive - my exH even commented that he was good looking and he was very antigay. I think there is also a type of a sensitive/emotional man, especially slim and not very tall who could be attractive as a cd, even without the model looks. The problem is a lot of cds aer hevay/masculine and that's what you see most, and many women find it off putting as it's just jarring (the physique vs the clothes).

Fairenuff Tue 31-Jul-12 11:17:53

Fairenuff - why should the housework be part of it, Op said repeatedly that he doesn't take on a persona

haha, no, it was another poster who said her dp did more housework when dressed as a woman.

OP rather proudly said that, as a man, he 'helps' his wife do housework. This was supposed to illustrate how he enjoys both 'male' and 'female' activities.

Male - I am very much one of the lads......I like football and beer (but then so do many women!), i work in construction, I teach martial arts

Female - I help with housework , I don't mind ironing

This from a person who champions freedom of expression and equality.

Ironic isn't it grin

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 11:46:03

Faire, they probably have a cleaner as wife is a carrer woman, so what's the problem - it's between every husband and wife how they prefer to divide the work - i.e. he works on house extension which his dw wouldn't CHOOSE to do probably, and she does more housework (probably not a lot if cleaner is there) she happens to be tidy by nature (not just because she is a woman). Why jump to conclusions when there is logic in these things regardless of feminist issues?

TheSmallClanger Tue 31-Jul-12 11:47:50

I'm finding this thread very interesting and thought-provoking.
One thing my mind keeps coming back to, is that there have always been androgynous men who have had a lot of sex appeal, with at least some women. The classic one on MN is Adam Ant, who played around with both very stylised masculine, and quite feminine, imagery, to dramatic effect and huge female approval. Trent Reznor is another one who has messed around with masculine/feminine and dominant/submissive imagery, often with him in a submissive position. In the 90s, Brett Anderson of Suede was a sex symbol to some with his exposed stomach, hoopy earrings and shiny asymmetric bob, and Brian Molko from Placebo looked great in a black shift dress and DMs. Before that, you had the glam rockers with their platforms and satin, and then the hair metal crew of the 80s, with their blowdried poodle perms and see-through tops. Then there's Eddie Izzard, and a few other comedians around now who are fond of eyeliner, slinky shirts and tight pants.
There seems to be a bit of a line. None of the men above has ever tried to pass as female, although some may have employed the odd feminine mannerism or two. There's a certain amount of girlyness that some men can get away with, and in some cases, it makes them even more attractive. However, there is a limit. All of them have played with the edgier side of "female" fashion, rather than the more traditional side which many CDs seem to like.
I'm not sure how else I can express that.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 11:56:10

carreer

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 12:00:06

Fairenuff - that's what plenty was sort of getting at pages ago and it hasn't really been addressed properly at any stage....

As for being disappointed about no male viewpoints? Where do we even start with that?!hmm

I have come to the conclusion after reading this whole thread that no it isn't validation, it is self-indulgence.

I'm very uncomfortable with a lot of things being discussed on here, not the cd but the way it is being spoken about in a goading, hostile and divisive way, actually shutting down people passive aggressively when they are asking valid questions, sycophantically raving at people who are counted as "in the club" and I find a lot of the concepts about "maleness" and "femininity" offensive as well as a lot of the things about cd. I know you do not speak for all cd anymore than I speak for all women and I am very uncomfortable with this deliberate polarisation and then manipulative and flamboyant language which says you are not being divisive.

I still wonder why exactly it is that you have posted? What's the purpose because there seems to be a lot of smugness and setting up to fail. I feel alienated as a person not a woman by you as a person and not a cd and I think it is a shame that by setting yourself up at least nominally in a position of speaking for the world of cd against prejudice, you are coming across so, well to be frank, narcissistically because actually that's one of the misconceptions that exists about cd and has been mentioned up thread.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 12:06:06

well David Walliams covered nearlu the whole range of cd looks (bar rock or punk!) from Jackie the pilot and a convincing old woman/air stewardess to cds in frilly Victorian dresses in 'we are ladies' with moustaches. I thinnk this kinbd of thing inspires cds to try not-too traditional looks as they aer probably not confident enough that they can pull off a less girly dress. Of course the irony is, the least girly the more the can pass for a modern woman, if they want to pass for one.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 12:13:10

Offred people express their opinions in a language they are used to or find appropriate, you are far too judgemental and oversensitive, if you have opinions why not just express then without looking for reactions or feeling alienated? if you mean that my posts are goading because i understand/support OP (even though I do not think he is perfect or always expresses himself perfectly, he's prob non-English in origin for one) then that's rubbish, I just feel like not being too heavy and serious and am curious about psychology but also happen to enjoy the artistic side of this- you choose to be deadly serious and take yourself in the same way, fine but don't be so judgemental about poster's and Op's expressing themselves as they feel like!

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 12:14:39

*posters and op

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 12:16:40

Likeatonne- does it really matter which female he helps out with the housework? <yes I know the hypothetical cleaner might hypothetically be a man>

The problem is the assumptions being made about "what is female" - housework, ironing, high heels, make up, long hair, skirts and "what is male" - martial arts, beer, football, a muscular physique.

I am aware the op has said that he doesn't agree with these stereotypes but here he is promoting them with his behaviour, with his words.

I don't think the words and actions match up: doesn't agree with stereotypes but promotes them, not ashamed but hides himself even from family, not looking for validation but wants people to agree with him.

Seriously, I've been picked on all my life, sometimes violently for the clothes I choose to wear. When I walk down the street I still get shouted at by random strangers almost everytime i go out. Sometimes it is quite intimidating but it doesnt limit my life or my choices about my appearance, i dont feel i need to hide it so my children dont get picked on and it has never occurred to me to post something equivalent to this post.

AnyFuckerWillMakeDoWithBronze Tue 31-Jul-12 12:17:23

I had to shut myself up some time back on this thread, as I was getting angry and it wouldn't have been helpful

What I have found irritating is the way we are supposed to accept the "blurring" of genders by male cross dressers, but then to not react to the blatant sexism displayed on here

proposing "doing more housework", being more "sensitive", willing to talk about feelings, being more touchy-feely etc just because a bloke has a frock on is shameless support of sexist stereotyping and looks very, very hypocritical to me

if as seems clear, we are being asked to accept that gender is "fluid" then fgs, quit the sexism

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 12:20:32

and what is offensive about op's concept of femaleness if the wife is a carreer woman and passes down her clothes to him? surely he would feel slightly 'degraded' if he was not looking at the genders as equal?!! most men would feel degraded about that, and some very openly, so OP is streets ahead. It still remains that women do not like working in construction (vast majority) and men are often clumsy with cleaning, it's irrelevant and reflects phyical attributes (delicate fingers that women have, muscle and thicker skin that men have), nothing to do with opression, so tiresome this nitpicking.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 12:20:58

My point about the flamboyant language btw was because I think it is another indicator this is all about the drama...

This post appeared to be asking about serious concepts, now it is a bit of fun but you are learning psychology from it? What? Could you be anymore confused here.

This is precisely why I'm feeling alienated because it seems like one big attention-seeking pisstake with some harmful stereotypes in the context of what has been framed as a serious discussion.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 12:21:38

That he is portraying it as "femaleness" and dividing it from "maleness"

AnyFuckerWillMakeDoWithBronze Tue 31-Jul-12 12:25:40

The OP is very probably a writer looking for copy, anyway

These threads often are, so not worth getting your frilly knickers in a twist whether it's a bloke or a woman that wearin' 'em

there, that's my light hearted take on this smile

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 12:28:42

Offred he did go out in a skirt with no wig/makeup, so his dressing is not so stereotypical, but with small children in a village anyone sensible would be careful, at least it takes time to test the waters. He also said the heels aer more aesthetically suitable with a skirt, and I agree, unless the skirt is long but he doesn't seem to wear long skirts.
Why aer you shouted at? do you dress as a man? respect for the courage, but it's not for everyone, you probab;ly identify with your clothes much more than OP does, the whole point of his list of maleness is to say he is not like many other cds who like to take on female persona, it's not to boast. It's true that majority of women aer not muscular/armed or into beer/foorball, I can't see how is that offensive - they don't choose to be, it's available for those who want those choices!

TheSmallClanger Tue 31-Jul-12 12:28:53

likeatonne, you are indulging in stereotypes now.

fwiw, I've got tiny, tiny "delicate" fingers and work in a largely physical job, where being bitten by animals is a common danger. And I'm shit at housekeeping.

The little barbed asides about "career women" and cleaning are completely derailing any interesting discussion there has been about cross-dressing, visual gender roles and related subjects. I'm getting the feeling now that the OP and you don't really want to discuss them.

TheSmallClanger Tue 31-Jul-12 12:31:04

Also, the little snippies about what heels go better with what skirt can be read, quite easily, as digs at the women on here who have said they don't go for the stereotypical femme look themselves.

AnyFucker that was a good line.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 12:33:52

Clothes are clothes to me. I don't get what message he is trying to send about cd, all he is doing is discussing himself and his likes/dislikes and thoughts as a person. I'm finding it offensive partly for the stereotypes it is promoting about genders and cd and all of the fawning about the special club people are or aren't in. I mean I do even feel a little uncomfortable with the term cd because to me clothes, shoes and hair are not and should not be seen as integral parts of someone's sex. I think that is a fundamentally unhealthy belief to have.

You might say cd could be seen as just a name for a group of (diverse) people based on the wearing of clothes etc that are outside what is normally socially acceptable for their gender, that's I think kind of what the op is saying he thinks but then what he is doing speaks differently.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 12:35:17

I don't identify with my clothes more than the op, quite the opposite btw. The clothes I wear are the clothes I like. I don't see why being shouted at in the street should influence what clothes I wear.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 12:36:42

you know men and women ARE physically, sexually and to some extent psychologically different, what is wrong with that if both (in the UK) can choose not to be typical to whatever degree they want. I think the whoe western world is moving towards androgyny, but it's not completely there yet, and won't be for a while. I don't understand why somene pointing out the differences is seen as offensive - the differences make sexes attract each other sexually. I think it's the opposite, denying some traditionally feminine traits and taste/activities to be seen as equal is anti-feminists. Maybe your owm experience makes you extremely sensitive and that's undrestandable but you have to accept that any form of strong individuality is frowned upon by closed minded people. Not just to do with gender roles.

TheSmallClanger Tue 31-Jul-12 12:38:59

Bingo.

Bye bye.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 12:40:41

Oh here we go again with "your experience makes you sensitive"...

Logically speaking if I was sensitive don't you think I'd just wear things that made me fit in.

Clothes, shoes and hair are not integral parts of gender, they are affectations and social constructs.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 12:43:16

I find the comments here about femininity fairly offensive. More housework when you're dressed as a woman? Lovely.

I've never had any experience with CD, I wouldn't care if my friends or professors or brother did it but I tried to picture myself in some scenarios mentioned here with a CD partner of my own and I admit I wrinkled my nose in disgust. Just not for me.

So yeah, indifferent over here too. Unless it was my relationship, I wouldn't want t. I'm not attracted to it.

AnyFuckerWillMakeDoWithBronze Tue 31-Jul-12 12:43:45

wearing a frock doesn't make you more like a woman

whether you are biologically male or biologically female

that seems to be what some people are saying on this thread

Helltotheno Tue 31-Jul-12 12:45:30

the little snippies about what heels go better with what skirt can be read, quite easily, as digs at the women on here

Quite, although I personally don't see that as a dig, to me it's just mind-numbingly boring, and somewhat irritating. If you want to talk about whether you prefer silk or satin knickers, or the merits and demerits of stilettos v boots, just take it to another thread, because that sort of 'in club' mutual backslapping doesn't really have any place in a serious debate on the subject.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 12:46:08

SmallClanger, we were discussing cds and visual untill someone got outraged about the whole thing being offensive and judging other posters language - that's not how i see it, and my opinion is as valid as Offred's. I don't see it offensive or criticise poster's language when it's on topic of cds. Physical work with animals is different from construction, I was only mentioning construction as it's relevasnt to OP who works there and his wife doing more inthe house than he does because they choose to not because it's always supposed to be like that - and the fact remains that most women do not work in construction, why is the word stereotype bandied about so much, some thimgs aer just facts. Heels - not a snide remark, again I said many times that i have a good eye for proportion and enjoy discussing outfits, and so does OP, it is not in any way me telling all women to wear heels. I don't wear them much as I'm more of a jeans type, but when i do wear slirts the look is much more elegant with some heel rather than flats, but obv it's not imperative to anyone. Why is artyistic judgement suddenly anything to do with feminism? it does frustrate me, this agression and jumping on every word. I work in workd of art and express what my traine deye can see - why do you think ther are styling programmes on tv - people often dress the way they do because they have no clue what suits then not to prove some gender role point.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 12:46:23

I don't have a style as such, sometimes it is a bit boho, sometimes a bit burlesque, sometimes a bit steam punk, sometimes a bit goth and sometimes I am cycling my cargo bike with all four children in my sports stuff and cycle helmet, I don't actually care what people think about what I look like at all. Sometimes I feel intimidated by people (small town mentality) who are trying to intimidate me. I don't think the correct thing to do is react to it in any way, I simply carry on as before wearing the clothes that I like or that are appropriate to the task in hand.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 12:47:20

I don't know if you missed it likeatonne but this has been consistently raised for a long time on this thread and consistently ignored too.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 12:48:37

Offred, you have to consder that people aer different - some affected by shouting, some not. I would be, I'd rather tone down whatever I'm doing and express it to friends if i was unconventional in my image. You can't tell Op to ignore it if he has wife's opinion and children to consider - it's the wife who decided not to tell children, shows again he's not some sterettypical male boss of the family!

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 12:49:08

You are the only one mentioning feminism on here...

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 12:50:00

You miss the point, the only point is that the op says a lot of things and does the opposite of them.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 12:51:57

Offred, not sure what do you mean I missed/got ignored on the thread? about your attitude to disapproval?
I think to be fair your styles are not as extrene a statement as a man dressing like a woman, or if say you dressed in a man's suit, which to the conventional people is crossing the line. He could be attacked - esp as he is male - is it worth it, it's up to him to decide. Also many would assume he was gay and they do get attacked.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 12:53:09

no I'm not the only one - gender roles aer the feminist subject - and you were offended by them, what does it matter which word is used, the meaning is hte same.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 12:53:26

Stereotype is being used because the things being described are actually as you say often just what the op and his family do in their family but they are being stated in a way that is "we do these feminine/masculine things" as though they are integral to either gender.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 12:54:41

No, about the stereotyping of gender roles and affectations. It was raised over and over by many people and ignored.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 12:55:07

I don't see why gender roles are a feminist subject?

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 12:57:33

I have very, very, very long blonde hair.

If i chopped it all off tomorrow I'd still be as much of a woman.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 12:58:01

Ths SmallClanger - really, oh forgive me for stating the facts, or having an opinion that most women would share (that there is nothing wrong with differences and the attraction is based on them AS well as personalities etc, that's why most couples aer heterosexual, after that how they divide their roles in the house or at work is their choice) - you can argue with biology all you like, it sounds like a teenage tantrum. It's when people say that male is better than female or the other way, then it's a problem, isn't that OBVIOUS? only too pleased to say bye to you.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:00:32

Lurking what is your point? lots of men, esp hippie have very long hair - OP doesn't bother with wig when indoors or even out at times.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 13:00:47

But clothes are not biology... Are they? hmm

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 13:01:29

I was adding to the discussion of clothes/hair/makeup do not equal woman.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:03:56

'Clothes, shoes and hair are not integral parts of gender, they are affectations and social constructs.'
YES Offred and that is the point of this thread - that people in general do not see it like that and OP has a problem to wear what he likes for fear of him or the children being ridiculed/attacked. He is trying to see here whether most women have a problen or not - and some posters don't want to see it in the streets and most said thay wouldn't want to be a partner to a cd, if everyone shared your opinion there would be no issue for cds.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:05:47

'clothes are not biology' - that was not to yout post but for theSmall who found it offensive that men and women are different physically. I do know trhis, that's whyu I understand OP, I wouldn't if i didn't agree with that statement, would I?

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:07:02

Lurking who said they were equal a woman? OP says he's a man, not trying to be a woman. him wearing a skirt doesn't make him a woman, as he said many times.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 13:07:26

Yes and my point is that is what he SAYS is the point of the thread but what he has discussed is none of the actual real concepts that have concerned the (damaging) linking of gender identity to superficial affectations or behaviours which have been ignored in favour of silly giggling about kitten heels. Not to mention that actually none of the points he makes about hostility have really been supported by him or anyone else, overwhelmingly the responses that were in anyway negative have been NIMBY (I think).

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 13:13:12

Not referencing the OP's CD. Referencing the blatant sexism in this thread that infers that the way I dress is what 'actually' makes me a woman.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:15:34

Offred he did answer about affectations - he doesn't do it apart from walking /sitting differently in a skirt. What doesn't he actually do, that he should be doing? apart from cd-ing in a village which we already covered? genuinely interested, not a snide q.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:18:52

Lurking er who do you refer to, if not OP? I personally also have a problem with many posters who don't understand that OP is not trying to be a woman by wearing skirt. Surely people can take his 'ironing' as a humourous remark, or at lwast hardly relevant?

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 13:25:27

Actually to be blunt, I believe it was you who said your partner does more housework when he's dressed up, as did the OP. I find that incredibly offensive. All the references to how he's more sensitive and talks more about his feelings...Those sorts of stereotypes are just as degrading to men as they are to women, and it really doesn't sit well with me. Basically to the point I think your DH is a sexist knob.

Of course you can live your life the way you want, but I admit that thought pattern makes me extremely uneasy.

Bowing out now, as I agree with AnyFucker (as usual! smile) that this is just a writer hunting for opinions.

I really don't care what people choose to wear (just clothes) it's when it's associated with a gender 'role' it makes me uncomfortable. It's like forcing one gender to conform to what someone else believes makes them, 'them.'

Anyway, I'm off to other threads, watch my movie and drink some bubbly. smile

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:25:28

Offred I think the avpoidance of hostility is mainly his wife's choice (and not telling children) which he respects, maybe they will get braver about it. I thought he did discuss it, and so did I, that clothes are just clothes and he remains true to male identity unlike say unicorn's dp who wants to bear female name and be a 'she' most of the time. He is making a distinction that i found interesting as i didn't know that some cd do not take a persona but I can now imagine it really well a man living a conventional life apart from wearing the clothes sometimes and seeing it as sensual - obviously in his case because of his mother's preferances, which he doesn't resent which in itself is interesting. what exactly hasn't he discuassed that yo uwant to - why not ask him direct questions again?

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:26:56

surely we aer allowed light relief for five minutes discussing heels, it was a 10% of the thread at most, just skip it if you are not interested, no thread on here is interesting to everyone all of the time.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 13:27:35

Apologies likeatonofbricks, it was unicorn's hubby who pissed me off not tours! blush

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 13:28:23

I have, a long time back thread. I am aware this is predominantly his wife's choice. That's not my point.

I've had a relationship with a cd man, I have had a lot of friends who cd or who are tv. I find this thread a bit of an insult to them actually.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:28:35

eh? you are confusing me with unicorn, Lurking, I don't have a cd partner, I'm single.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:30:10

unicorn's H is a compltely different cd, to me it is obvious that he wants to be a woman even though unicorn doesn't believe so, it's theor both attitudes to housework, and she sees it humourously as far as i can tell.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 13:30:22

But it has been either light entertainment or high-giving with people who were in the club for the whole thread. The points have been raised many times and never answered and now that I escalated the manner in which I was asking (the same thing over and over) someone is actually discussing it but it was up until that point raised many times by many posters and just glossed over.

Helltotheno Tue 31-Jul-12 13:35:34

I personally also have a problem with many posters who don't understand that OP is not trying to be a woman by wearing skirt.

Au contraire likeatonne, my understanding is that he wants to be SEEN as a woman when dressed up. Obv there's no point in him trying to BE a woman--there's that little matter of his willy for a start.

And as for this: surely we aer allowed light relief for five minutes discussing heels, that was just you and the OP; I don't think many other women wake up in the morning trying to decide what class of kitten heel they'll wear; I'm usually more concerned about which of my thready primark knickers is still fit for purpose....
In fact those posts made it seem like the OP only came on here to indulge in a bit of wardrobe discussion - no prob, if it's a separate thread.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:35:34

why not just say what your point is Offred? everyone repeats q's if they aer not promptly answered, it's a busy thread. Why repeat how it's not answered when no one knows what you mean, would be quicker to ask again. I don't think he is the usual cd, so it doesn't have to be offensive to all of them, he just states his own situation and did cover some other cd types of mentality.

Fairenuff Tue 31-Jul-12 13:35:49

OP do you employ a cleaner?

Are you non-English in origin.

Two assumptions that have been made, based on, well I'm not sure so that's why I'm asking you.

Likeatonne It still remains that women do not like working in construction (vast majority) and men are often clumsy with cleaning, it's irrelevant and reflects phyical attributes (delicate fingers that women have, muscle and thicker skin that men have)

Can men not perform cleaning tasks then? Those who work in engineering, electronics, microbiology, surgeons, etc. Too clumsy to load a washing machine or operate a hoover?

OP most of us on this thread are showing that we are open-minded and in fact have asked specific questions in order to provide a well-informed opinion. You have shown yourself to be quite shallow and prejudiced and have not bothered to answer most of the questions.

What did you hope to gain from starting this thread? It could have been such an interesting and informative discussion. Instead, you're making it into a bit of a joke.

It seems clear that there is no 'standard' cross dresser, just as there is no 'standard' gay person, or 'standard' woman or just plain no 'standard' person. We are all individuals, we all do what we do for a variety of reasons.

I think, rather than canvassing opinions on your particular hobby/lifestye choice, you might be better advised to look at some of your own prejudices.

Regarding preconceived beliefs and prejudices, your opening post spoke volumes, Firstly i'd like to make it clear that i am male and as such appreciate i may be laying myself bare to the onslaught of comment that is likely to come my way

Then there was the footie/cleaning divide.

Then it all fell apart.

I don't know why you started this thread. You said you wanted to know women's opinions on men who cross dress. Well most of us said we didn't care what other people do but would not want our own partner to do it. Some have entered into relationships knowing that their partner cross dresses and are happy with it. Is that it?

You could have achieved so much more from starting this discussion. Shame.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 13:37:12

Totally agree fairenuff.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:40:02

and yes Lurking unicorn's H and her own outlook is stereotypical but as they aer genuinely happy it's surely their choice? I think her H is very fragile emotionally as he is desperate to get back to 'she' mode when he needs to be dressed as male, to me you can't judge people who can't control their unusual needs. He obv loves to be a stereotypical woman - it's very complex and difficult to judge, and it is his own choice. As he is hardly ever a 'he' then it's hard to call him a sexist (maybe he is towards men shock)

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 13:40:45

I keep repeating my point and have done very recently, you haven't understood it so I don't see how repeating it again would help, you called it "outrage" and "extreme sensitivity" and then you posted clearly misunderstanding it. My point is what fairenuff just said.

Fairenuff Tue 31-Jul-12 13:42:35

Why repeat how it's not answered when no one knows what you mean, would be quicker to ask again Because OP said he would read back and answer all the questions. We are still waiting for him to do that.

He is not a child. He does not need grown women to 'repeat the question', he is perfectly capable of doing what he said he was going to do. If he can't be bothered then I, for one, am not going to chase it up. It's his thread after all, not mine.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 13:43:08

Why has the op started this thread? Because what he says is not matching what he does in many ways and along the way there are many damaging stereotypes about men, women and cds being thrown about and promoted.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 13:43:40

That's the point and the question.

Fairenuff Tue 31-Jul-12 13:46:03

I imagine he is just sitting there rubbing his hands together in glee at all these women squabbling over him.

Oooh, how thrilling! grin

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 13:47:23

like

He has a penis, he's a man. I'm not in the camp of 'gender is a state of mind,' though I have met a few people who have challenged this belief of mine (EG: Kim off MN) and allow me to believe there are genuine cases. But transgender is not what this thread is about.

Even if he was a woman, women can still be sexist to women. Men can be sexist to men. Women can be sexist to men...Well you get my drift.

It's kinda like the 'reverse racism' comment that is like fingernails on a blackboard to me. All racism s racism, regardless of race. All sexism is sexism, regardless of gender.

Also, I stated in my original comment it is their choice, I just find the sexism offensive.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:48:47

Fairenuff, why not read my reply proplerly before asking another irrelevant q - it is really tiresome. I did nOT say that men can't clean, did I - I said they can be clumsy if they aer bulky/have big hands, or can't operate a machine (that's what they usually like doing around the house). But this was not mainly ewhat i said - given their personal situation they have the extension to build and the housework to do - so obviously if dw is not up to the building works they would prefer to divide the workload like that - it's logistics and rational use of their time/resources!

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 13:53:29

If it is irrelevant why are so many people asking it? What you mean is you don't understand why it is relevant...

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:54:24

gender is a state of mind, was about unicorn's H who wants to be a 'she' and called a 'she' most of the time, which I found difficult to understand but I was trying. OP has no wish to be a she, so his mind and anatomy go together!
this is not a thread about fine points of sexism really, but as I said somewhre above I don't find a man sexist if he chooses a carrer woman as awife and gets her clothes passed down to him, which even not-so-sexist men would find 'degrading', so I can't really see that. Just because he likes skirts who aer made for women - that's how htey aer sold, just for women, it's not HIS label and he was speaking up against it. What else was so sexist from him?

Fairenuff Tue 31-Jul-12 13:56:18

You make an awful lot of assumptions Likeatonne but I do understand what you mean. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

The point is about the sexism and prejudice exhibited on this thread, more than the actual divide of jobs around the house.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:56:33

Offred I did undrestand and posted on last page - you thinbk he is acting differently from what he is saying - and I did ask, how - and what would you want him to do to be consistent? (apart from walking through the village, for the 10th time)?

Fairenuff Tue 31-Jul-12 13:59:05

And, just to be clear, the sexism is nothing to do with the cross-dressing.

Helltotheno Tue 31-Jul-12 13:59:09

Wow I really hope he appreciates all the standing up you're doing for him... funny how he's completely disappeared now... well maybe not so strange seeing as how apparently he only came on for style advice or to flesh out his article, as already mentioned.

If I were you, I'd step back and let him fight his battle smile

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 13:59:16

skirts that are made

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 14:00:02

like

Sexism us relevant to this thread because it keeps popping up, kinda like how n IL threads people often say 'DH is the problem, not IL' IYSWIM?

I'm very open minded about cross dressing (surprisingly so given my upbringing) and I actually feel this thread is offensive to the CDs I do know...One of them being my favourite teacher at school.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 14:01:04

Excuse all my typos, I just got my second glass of blubbly blush

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 14:01:41

he hasn't disappeared, he works in the day no doubt, and i'm still on holiday grin

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 14:05:04

Oh crap. blush

Can I just clarify it's NOT daytime here? I'm not that much of a lush! grin

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 14:07:06

Offred I hope you read the posts where i say why I don't think he acts in a sexist way - i did put it on last page too once I understood you, but you prob missed it so repeated above. To me he and dw sound one of the most equal couples I've heard of, including on MN. Essentially so, the house chores/wet towels on bed are a minor point said in humourous way - can't people see the bigger picture?!

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 14:08:33

yeah Lurking, I was wondering whether champagne and movies are your normal lunch routine grin! why not, anyway!

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 14:10:56

Haha nooooo I go back to school next week, I would drink in the day if I didn't have a houseful of animals to clean up after!

Should have just pretended I was a yummy mummy. wink

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 14:12:17

I think that's how you interpreted those comments like, I certainly didn't take them that way. I took them as OP justifying how he could be feminine as well as manly. Which is why I was offended.

Fairenuff Tue 31-Jul-12 14:14:31

Yes, lurking and that had nothing whatsoever to do with cross dressing. That was just his personality shining through.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 14:17:44

I'll just have to concede I find it greatly confusing that it's got 'nothing to do with cross dressing' when the comment is 'I do more housework dressed as a woman.' Does that not imply that housework is woman's work, f someone does MORE housework while they're dressed as a woman?

That's why I'm offended for the CD's I know. Attitudes like that are a huge step back for tolerance to CDs, not fair to the majority. sad

Fairenuff Tue 31-Jul-12 14:20:12

Ah yes, but that wasn't the OP. Yes, of course, that is sexist and offensive.
I agree that this thread has done a great disservice to other cross dressers but of course they are not all like that.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 14:22:40

Helltotheno, I think you have misundrestood, he doesn't want to be seen as a woman as he says he'd prefer to go out in a skirt but with no wig/makeup and has very short hair. He want it to be an recongised option for a man to wear clothes that are only designated for women (unlike trousers that aer sold for both genders). It is simple - and to me, refreshing and modern.
so what if we discussed heels for two minutes - it wasn't just me, someone was suggesting boots etc.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 14:23:09

Sadly a thread all about tolerance has probably only justified anyone reading this with intolerances.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 14:29:48

it was a light hearted comment re ironing, the way they live their lives with dw IN ESSENSE, important things, is equal. He wants to appear androgynous - ask a really sexist man what does he think of that, and whether he'd call a guy like that a 'real man'. I.e. I'm sure lots of men aer sexist towards cds seeing then as 'inferior' no par with women or worse. OP shown that he treats dw as equal if not actually that she dominates a bit with big decisions, who cares about him doing ironing or not, really!

Fairenuff Tue 31-Jul-12 14:41:43

Helltotheno, I think you have misundrestood, he doesn't want to be seen as a woman as he says he'd prefer to go out in a skirt but with no wig/makeup and has very short hair

Likeatonne with respect, he also said this

as regards whether i want others to perceive me, if I'm out in full drag makeup etc, I would like to appear as a woman to strangers and blend in as do most cds but I 've got no allusions that this is always or perhaps even ever achievable, maybe at a distance

OP has contradicted himself throughout this thread.

Fairenuff Tue 31-Jul-12 14:43:10

And no-one cares about him doing the ironing, it's the point that he sees it primarily as a woman's role. How can you not see the distinction?

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 14:47:44

Read. My. Posts. Like.

I have explained how he is acting differently from what he is saying a million times over. I'm not asking him to do anything differently, I'm asking him not to come on here and judge all of MN and all of women for being hostile when he is actually the one who in his behaviour is displaying the hostile attitudes. To. Himself....

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 14:49:28

Right so a "really sexist man" considers a man who does the ironing not to be a "real man" but the op who is implying that being a woman involves doing the ironing is not being sexist at all... hmm

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 14:50:29

i can see the distinction but it's a very minor 'sexism' whereas the important things he doesn't treat in sexist manner (life/work choices for the wife, who decides what and when to tell children, her clothes getting past down) - I'm surprised people can't see the bigger pictures. Not every man has shaken off every little bit of sexism yet, but he's doing hell of a lot better than most who aer hypocrites, i.e. are careful ewhat they say re housework but in important decisions they aer always the boss.
Yes, to the first paragraph - when in full drag, but he often isn't in full drag, and what he really wants is no 'drag' at all just to be free to wear clothes he finds pleasant and that he can carry off without with his own short hair. He said that going to clubs requires full drag as that's the only real choice at the moment. At home he doesn't become a 'she' and keeps own name.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 14:50:44

And lurking that's why it's sticking in my craw so much because actually from the off all it has done is play to all kinds of unhelpful stereotypes about gender and cd.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 14:54:44

I read your posts Offred, I get equal impression you don't read mine. maybe we just don't understand each other.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 14:56:12

Again you think it is minor. I don't think it is minor because it is in addition to promoting sexism is promoting sexism as a fundamental characteristic of cd, having known a number of diverse individuals who happen to cd for a variety of reasons and in a variety of ways I find it offensive on both of those levels, the sexism and the cd assumptions and I'm irritated that it was not even noticed or discussed until it was being asked in a way that was described as "outrage" and "extreme sensitivity" despite discussion of the issues being stated as the aim of the op.

I do think he has from that at least given the impression he was only ever after titillation and attention at the expense of the forum and I happen to think they are serious topics that shouldn't be used for entertainment.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 14:56:27

I don't see hostility to himself, or to mn women (maybe he was a bit defensive to start with, but not hostile) - it's how you see it, which is your right obv. But don't state for everyone please, not fair.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 14:57:34

<hollow laugh>

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 14:58:04

"it's a very minor sexism"

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 15:00:01

yes, I think this, you think that, both opinions can be valid, but we may never agree, you just sound very heavy and serious and I don't agree with this view on life, I like to embrace imperfections, OP is not perfect, neither am I, but essentially his attitude is not BAD, and essentially I'm not missing the point, but there is always room for criticism if you go with fime tooth comb. Generally people aer not likely to respond well to heavy handed jungememnts though, God he made itslip about ironing whereas the rest of their life is equal and you come on to him like a Hawk together with Faire, I really think it's OTT.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 15:01:42

Except I didn't "come onto him like a hawk" he completely ignored me and the significant number of other posters who repeatedly asked him about it.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 15:02:05

I'm with Offred, at the end of my second glass I have no interest in being quoted in this lying, non CDing Daily Fail's article, so feel free to speak for me. smile

Oh, and I dress very stereotypically feminine. Doesn't define who I am. Sadly if OP truly got this, he wouldn't be thrown in cutesy anecdotes about how he's building blah blah blah.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 15:02:47

Btw my point just then was that it isn't me who is actually continuously stating their opinion as fact, I've picked you up on it several times.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 15:04:14

yess, Offred, you can laugh but no one is perfect and most people aer not perfectly non-sexists, industrious, or non racists - if they aer going in the right direction it's enough for me, it's a process of self development. To me people ae either decent or twats and that's what matters, of they are developing then let them. You maybe perfectly non sexist and OP is only 90% - what a horror! I think 90% is great, hell of a lot better than average, as we haven't grown up in a non sexist society.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 15:04:28

No one needed to go through with a fine tooth comb..It was right there in the OP as someone else has already quoted!

I have people in my life who I really care about who CD, the examples I've seen here disgust me to my very core.

It would be like if Perez Hilton represented gay men.

LurkingAndLearningLovesCats Tue 31-Jul-12 15:06:06

Uhh...I wasn't aware we were judging sexism in percentages now?

When I start online dating maybe I should say 'only those of 95% higher need apply.' confused

I'm really outta here now, my tongue is too loose. Genuinely shocked.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 15:07:18

Again, that is your way of seeing things. I don't put people into "bad" or "good" boxes. I try to just look at behaviour and if I am going to make value judgements only make value judgements about that.

It is not about who is nice, who is not but about not excusing or tolerating sexism or discriminatory stereotypes. I don't see why it should be tolerated because the op who you have never met seems nice.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 15:08:51

maybe it's the heavy manner that you ask him that leads to no desire to engage! as I say try to look at the bigger picture of OP's and his wife's life, not nitpick on some remark that came from a conventional upbringing, but it does not define him in his personal life.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 15:09:02

And actually from the OP's comments he is probably one of the most sexist people I have encountered recently.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 15:10:42

But I have stated over and over like that I didn't ask in a "heavy way" to start with and other people who have asked things in a "heavy way" have been answered. Not to mention that the op is worded in a "heavy way" itself!

This is a bit like my grandma who hates all kinds of things unless she likes you and then they are ok...

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 15:12:46

I don't think OP wants to represent the whole cd community at all, it's impossible. He talks about a very simple issue - WHY can't he wear a skirt in public and present as a man without being ridiculed or even attacked. He is hoping it will change in the future. He is nothing to do with other cds whose situation is much more complex mentally. Partly obvioulsly it's also an issue for them that they can't walk in drag in the daytime without shocking people, but he wasn't talking about all of their issues hence doesn't represent them. Why is it that others can't see it as simple as that? it really is.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 15:12:57

You have no idea where he gets his ideas from either or how he runs his home or whether he has a cleaner... So many assumptions...

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 15:15:16

Everyone has answered that over and over with a <shrug> "you can, not really bothered" and plenty have said they think the barrier is more in his mind than in society.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 15:18:00

The people I know can and do dress how they want when they want. We even had a drag bar here for a few years... There is not abuse of people who cd in my (small) town but I had such bad harassment from builders working on flats next to our house that I had to get the neighbourhood police involved recently. Seriously there is no evidence here to support the initial premise that society and MN are hostile towards cd.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 15:18:24

Op is not even slight 'heavy' - and I don't like all of his expressions btw, as none of us is perfect , but I like the big picture as i say, and I like his taste. And him raising the question of a man who has no desire to be a woman or seen as one but just enjoy the clothes - btw women aer ahead in this as they wear mannish suits if they want to (if not an actual man's suit, but that should also be an option) and men who actually look good in a skirt are seen as just weird and 'less of a man' - note, not just by men but by lots of women. It doesn't make sense and that's what the htread is about, It is NOT about every single aspect of gender roles in the house etc.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 15:20:06

(I wear cowboy boots, they are just my shoes, they are comfortable, durable and I love them but the builders every day hung of the scaffolding shouting "ride em cowboy" and obscenities at me whenever I left the house sometimes with my children).

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 15:21:31

I'm not just assuming - he works on house extension, and wife works and earns a lot - he made nosecret of that - , so it makes sense they have a cleaner, if the wife doesn't CHOOSE to have a cleaner even though she can do, then it's her decision how to run the household and who works on extension, or a mutual decision. He also said she is very tidy by nature, so hardly assumptions. It's called 'getting the picture'.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 15:21:53

That's what he says yes but the way he says it, you admit, is mildly sexist and the things he does don't actually fit with that ethos.

Being accused of discrimination I find heavy and also being lumped in with "the rest of women"

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 15:22:42

No it is called assuming... <beyond words now> confused shock

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 15:23:42

well the builders are weird, but who knows what sort of village they live in - if his wife is too cautious about it then she may have reasons. Maybe it's not abuse but snugerring that they don't want as a family - horrible too.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 15:28:39

it's also called nitpicking, what you are doing. He said 'rest of the women' - maybe he is just less refined in his language and less articulate than you, but I don't think he contradicts what he says with his behaviour, you aer still ignoring all my point regarding their equality as a couple. If you mean 'acts on MN' then it's open to interpretation (all he says) but his way of life is not contradictory - I bet there will be snigerring or eveb agression in small village and they don't want it to reflect on children, if you aer braver, great but it's not his individual decision if he has a family.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 15:30:13

You have no idea about their equality as a couple, those are all assumptions you make and even some of those don't sound much like equality.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 15:36:28

He says MN is hostile when it isn't, he says his village is hostile when he hasn't tested it and he says it is not shameful but he keeps it from his children to protect them. Those are some of the inconsistencies.

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 15:40:07

The biggest one is saying he doesn't agree with those sexist stereotypes about gender and then he actively promotes them.

Fairenuff Tue 31-Jul-12 15:54:13

To be fair, we have no idea of the 'bigger picture' of the OPs life. We rarely get to know our close friends and family that intimtely, let alone a complete stranger on the internet. He could be anyone.

We can only go on what he is saying. The discussion I have been having for the last 5 pages or so is not about cross dressing. Because if OP is not available to discuss that, then I will leave it.

The point that I was making was the irony of this thread. The OP is advocating tolerance, acceptance and equality and yet clearly exhibits sexism in his posts. This is not implied it is right there, for us to read and quote.

There are no degrees of sexism. Just as there are no degress of racism. You either believe men and women are equal, or you don't. You can't believe it 90% that just makes a mockery of equality.

Yes, he seems like a perfectly 'nice' bloke. I have friends like that. I'm not trying to change them. But OP is trying to change people's views here. And that's the irony of it.

Firstly, because he started with the assumption that he would have to persuade people that cross dressing was ok. When he met with no resistance, he asked us to ask our male partners.

Secondly because he assumed that because he was a man on a prominently female forum, he would get flamed. That didn't happen either.

Thirdly, because he used the 'helping with housework' line to show how he was into his feminine side and the 'working in construction' to show his masculine side.

These are all sexist and part of his personality, his integral beliefs. He was not even aware that he was being sexist and he probably did not mean to offend anyone.

I am not personally offended but I do feel if we point it out to him when he's doing it, it might make him more aware and help him achieve the equality he desperately wants.

And actually Likeatonne your comments are also sexist. You have made more ridiculous statements than he has, as to men with big fingers being too clumsy to do housework, etc. How did they live if they're not married then. Who looks after them when they leave their mothers? (Rhetorical question btw, don't feel you need to reply). That's offensive to men and women alike!

TheSmallClanger Tue 31-Jul-12 16:50:07

Do bigger hands make better or worse sock puppets? wink

Fairenuff Tue 31-Jul-12 17:18:20

Now, now Clanger, that's naughty grin

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 17:35:26

offred and fairenuff, both of you appear to be less than content by the manner of my responses and not answering questions. theres alot on here now so very difficult to go thru it all. what in particular are your concerns and questions that i haven't answered

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 17:51:05

fairenuff, i can't believe that you accuse me of being sexist! if you knew me you'd realise that i'm as far from that as you can be. yes i may have made the wrong assumption about being flamed, but your sexism comments are starting to make it look that way. misinterpretation of comments is easily done on a forum and can lead to a very skewed view of someone. equally i may be misinterpreting you and your'e not ripping me at all.

as regards the sexism claim, the onlr reason i made the initial comments re housework & construction was to let readers know that i am quite happy to do both and don't see housework as the womans role, but it is in fact the responsibility of both partners who contribute to creating that work. if theres ironing to do i'll do it, if the kittchen needs tidying and cleaning i'll do it, etc,etc. equally my dw "Helps" me with work on the hosue. but both of us have our strenghts and weaknesses when it comes to work, and we share, and thats the way it should be

unicorn72 Tue 31-Jul-12 18:03:38

likeatonneofbricks

"unicorn's H is a compltely different cd, to me it is obvious that he wants to be a woman even though unicorn doesn't believe so, it's theor both attitudes to housework, and she sees it humourously as far as i can tell."

RIGHT lets get some things straight my partner not my husband does NOT what this penis chopped off and have hormone treatment to become a women OK he likes to wear womens clothes and when doing so can be asked to help with the house work due to my Partners line of work ie shift work the housework falls on me as i work days however when my partner is in female mode she is more willing to help with the house work. What is WRONG WITH THAT? My ex husband never did any housework ! I DONT see me viewing crossdressing as a sterotypicaly viewpiont in that I KNOW ALOT OF MEN AND TRANSGENDER men (the transgender men are the ones wanting to have hormone treatment and become a WOMEN) who have been left by there girlfirends wives etc ( I have many friends who think its great that I support my Cross dressing partner ) This that spo wrong to support the person you love and who you want to see happy the only reason I replied to this thread was to show support to the OP and to show a view of a bio women having a fab realtionship with a CD I am bowing out now as I have been called things on this thread which have upset and angered me assupmetions about my views have been made and I really cant be bothered to talk to people who wont bother asking me a question directly

unicorn72 Tue 31-Jul-12 18:06:15

* i know alot of cross dressing men and transgender men

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 18:21:42

offred, i don,t want this to deteriorate into a slanging match so i'll try to repond to your earlier comments from this afternoon. the one you say is the biggest is that i actively promote gender stereotypes. can you explain how you think i'm doing that?

AnyFuckerWillMakeDoWithBronze Tue 31-Jul-12 18:28:26

Offred, love, I suggest you don't qualify that with a reply

The transparency of the requests for further copy are patronising and becoming embarassingly obvious

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 18:31:54

no we don't have a cleaner. dw works v. hard but doesn't earn anywhere near what she deserves in my opinion, blame the austerity for that!

as i've said before, we choose not to be public mainly because of the children, they always come first! i was a bit braver in the past but the time now isn't right.

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 18:33:39

any, where on earth do you get such ridiculous ideas

2rebecca Tue 31-Jul-12 18:47:33

I don't like this idea that housework is somehow women's work. I do find alot of the sexual stereotyping in the transgender debate offensive.
The "I'm biologically male but I'm really a woman because I think x and I like y"
I hate housework and my husband is tidier than I am. That doesn't alter what sex/gender we are. We aren't living in the 1950s. Why does putting on a skirt mean you have to start behaving differently? I don't think my behaviour changes depending on whether I'm wearing a skirt or trousers. I don't care whether or not some men sometimes want to wear hosiery and silk skirts, I do care if those men think that wearing a skirt means you have to behave in a "feminine" way and that that involves being tidy, doing more housework and simpering.

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 18:51:17

rebecca, i couldn't agree more

fluffyraggies Tue 31-Jul-12 19:11:48

calikid, can i ask if your work mates know about your CD?

calikid Tue 31-Jul-12 19:23:12

no they don't

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 19:28:22

unicorn I was actually defendig you against someone who called your P sexist because you mentioned him doing housework when in drag (so that's most of the time) - I said that it's a complex issue for someopne who prefers to be a she most of the time and loves the stereotypical female image, I personally dont see anything wrong with stereotypes if both partners agree on how their r-ship works and are both happy. I he does to do more houseworj as a oman it really is yours and his business whjether you accept it. That's why I hate militant posters who think EVERYONE must accept that there no differences between men and women whether they like those differences or not - as OP just said to me it's to do with strengths and abilities, i.e. it's obvious that men develop arm muscles much easier and are better at building work whereas women would prefer lighter work 0 what the hell is wrong with that? I can do light self assembly but i have no desire to build walls or lift heavy stuff, I'd rather do ironing. If in a couple (minority) a woman is an athlete and her P is delicate it's up to them to reverse. The arguments aer here are militant but make no sense in real life!
I honestly can not see either OP how did you promoye stereotypes - they ae quoting 'ironing' fgs. And Faire of course he is getting flamed by you and Offred for being a sexist man - this is priceless!

Offred Tue 31-Jul-12 19:28:33

I have explained that more than enough times as have others.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 19:29:31

*If he wants to do housework as a woman

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 19:36:47

if you ask people and get their HONEST answers you'd be surprosed to know that very few aer 100% non-sexist, and possibly the same for noon racist. They may be largely so but we do not live in such an adnanced society that these doubts are extinct. The big progress now is that three aer much fewer actively sexist/racist people than before but still plenty, so the rest is somerwjhere in the middle or whatever degree, and I can't see AT ALL how OP is sexist fronm he told us about the wife and his attitude to her. Even the bloody fact that he wants to wear womens clothes whereas most men would see it 'ridicuous'and beneath them, puts him ahead of the pack. You aer living in a fairy tale with Offred if you think that most or even a big percent of people in this country (let along less democratic ones) see everyone as equal. The realistic option is to judge whether a person is moving in the right direction with their view but still 'getting there' and OP is a good 90% or more from what I ve read.

likeatonneofbricks Tue 31-Jul-12 19:45:21

funnily enough women may see wearing mens clothes uncomfortable or not suiting them, but not 'beneath them' whereas ask most men and they would see is stepping down with their ego/pride rather than up or equal - even if we aer not talking about silly frills or anything l