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Well this is my new thread, had my first counselling session today which was very difficult . The old thread is nearly full so thought I would start afresh . Don't know how to link so if anyone wants to add the old thread feel free.

How did it go?

Optimistic title but if you're not willing to follow the advice you've been given to stop playing silly buggers with your h, the ow, and Uncle Tom Cobley & Co, skye, you'll only need a mirror to reveal the new elephant in the room.

Here's the longest of your old threads: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1470233-sod-the-elephant-looks-like-its-really-over

It was really difficult. She was trying to get me to see things from his point of view which I found a but odd, she also said that I was rushing into divorce and that I should put it on hold, that he has just shut down for now but I said no, he is adamant he doesnt love me any more and that it's over and i can't keep going through this, that I'm taking back the control.

I told her about all the texting and emailing and the way they chatted and she said that they have connected on an intimate level in their heads. She said that my H could easily be infatuated and come crashing down to earth at some point.

She gave me some stuff to think about and shrubs going to go away and process everything and decide where we go next to address my behaviour and how I can deal with things going forward

She's not shrubs!! Lol

Oh dear, poor DH, isn't it awful that he's infatuated and might find out that he's chasing something that's not actually real!

<sarcasm off>

What on earth did she think that you should do? Wait around for him to come back to you with his tail between his legs? Then try to play happy families again until he does it again?

I'm glad it was helpful, Skye - keep on thinking, and yes, use it to gather strength to go forward.

Just marking my place here Skye - you sound like you are moving forward in a positive way

decide where we go next to address my behaviour

What aspects of your behaviour need addressing?

Sorry it was stressful.

I think by my behaviour she means why he reacted to what I did or said, so I can stop blaming myself for everything or accept if I could have handled things differently.

I did think it a bit odd as I felt under attack because i said he walked out when I didn't want him to go to a football match, so she was saying how would that make him feel.... I said that my hair appointment had been booked for weeks and booked so that my H was there to take care if daughter. So of course I was annoyed that he was now not going to be around. But apparently I would have made him feel bad that I was stopping him doing something that I wanted to.. It's all about the fact that he said I was controlling but like she said it sounds like he needed someody to organise him but at some point he started to resent it.

I'm on a real downer again now, te counselling has brought everything to the front again and made me feel really sad that my H is gone , but even saying that i still dont feel that I want him back, which is good.

It's just reminded me how helpless I felt about him walking out and how confusing it is as to why etc.

I cried for about an hour solid I think! I feel drained and tired now.

Sorry but I really don't like the sound of this counsellor, who sounds like she's of the handmaiden variety who thinks that if a man behaves badly, there's a woman to blame for it somewhere.

If you get any of this nonsense again I'd find someone else and quickly.

Skye just be aware that couselling will bring all sorts of emotions to the surface and you might momentarily feel worse.

I guess from your above post you are wondering how much to blame were you with regards to the breakdown. Please don't beat yourself up over this, what's done is done now, hopefully your sessions will be less painful in the future.
Chin up, you are doing well in the circs.

I would be a bit wary of this counsellor - esp if she made you feel under attack. Counselling is supposed to make you feel safe enough to open up.

Counsellors are supposed to provide a listening ear and ask gently probing questions to make you think. She shouldn't give opinions e.g saying that you are rushing into a divorce.

Where did you find her and are her qualifications?

*what

I think challenging someone to see another's point of view is a perfectly valid thing to do within the context of a trusted counselling relationship, but this strikes me as a very odd thing to have done in your first session. Shouldn't she have been trying to build a rapport with you so you felt supported by her? Counsellor as critical friend seems like a good place to get to, but she needs to establish the friend part first.

Was just going to say exactly what Tribot said. I am very suprised she asked you this question in the first session. Also, particularly as you were so tearful and upset, I would have thought her job in the first session would be 99% about listening and hearing you (as well as getting to grips with your 'story' as she will need to familarise herself with it).

Hi by the way, not been on MN a lot lately - I know my last posts were harsh. I stand by them but hope you are ok and still think you are getting on very well.

The coun selling is through the Childrens Centre, she said that she has just finished her diploma - that's how it's free through Action For Children. She has 100 hours of experience but needs more so they build it up this way so she is qualified but not that experienced... She was about ten years older than me and also had a child when she was in her thirties.

I did like her as a person but I did feel she was a bit judgemental a out the divorce. I told her that H is adamant he doesn't love me. , she said he has shut off and put his feelings in a box and needs time. I said i have been there donethat and now he is cold and horrible to me and that i cant go on like it. I have accepted what he is saying and divorcing him as I don't want to stay married to him.

Maybe she will be different when she has had time to go away and absorb my problems... she said I was carrying a lot of baggage and thinking that I'm a horrible person because of his letter so her job is to get me through those feelings and out the other side feeling better about myself.

I am going to echo tribpot on this too. Encouraging you to see things from your H's viewpoint is valid, but I certainly wouldn't expect that on a first session - the trust has yet to be established between you and her. I would have expected the first session to be about you both establishing a relationship, whereby you trust her, and also getting the bones of what happened. Subsequent sessions should be about getting to the meat of everything and exploring the tougher and more challenging aspects.

Hope you're OK?

your counsellor doesn't appear to understand the basic premise of what your H has done

she is trying to say he has recently put his feelings in a box and detached from you

the true fect is, he did that yonks ago, which I detailed on your last thread and is several pages ahead of you

your counsellor should understand that, and help you process it

having said that, it's probably not helpful for me (or anyone else) to pick apart what she says negatively, this is your lifeline so stick with it and after a few more sessions I am sure you will start to see it is helpful

and if it isn't, you are not obliged to continue

but give it several more sessions before you make a judgement about that

She did say that we start off in the next session talking about my childhood and then about now but she asked for the story of the marriage breakup, so out it all came warts and all. I think i confused the hell out of her! Jumping from one bit to another as I rambled through my story.

I said to her it has been four months since he left the first time and he wasn't really there when he came back as he was obsessing with OW texts all day every day by then so I really feel now like he left at the end of Feb although it has only been a month since the letter. I'm all confused with a banging headache..

Thanks af I think you are right. She just didn't seem to get the point that it's over! I think because in her words it's early days she seems to think its fixable but she doesn't know him whereas I know he means it she doesn't.

And the divorce is my decision, but i did respect what she was saying from the point of view of why put myself through it if I'm not strong enough, why not sort myself out then get divorced but I said i need to do it now not heal then open it all up again in a years time or whenever. Plus I told her about the debt history etc and said financially I need him off deeds etc.

skye if you feel that your counsellor hasn't understood the situation, my advice would be to prepare a simple and clear statement with which to start the next session. If it would be too difficult to speak it out loud, why not write it down and ask here to read it from start to finish before discussing any of it with you. Perhaps the process of writing it down would help you to decide on some initial goals for the counselling.

Remember, counsellors are human just like anyone else and they are capable of getting the wrong end of the stick too. They may be reasons why she has misunderstood, but those can be discussed at a later stage if you feel it would be helpful. The important thing is to get your counselling back on track.

I'm a trainee counsellor btw and I'd really prefer my client to tell me if I was on the wrong track, so don't worry about hurting her feelings. Honestly ...

With counselling you will feel much worse before you feel better! Stick with it skye. You've come a long long way and should feel proud of yourself. Well done

The thing is, you so want to believe that your DH will come back that it may well have influenced how you described things to your counsellor. When i had counselling before if i ever spoke about DP, she would always turn it around to ME and i would be and think "but he is being a twunt, he has made me angry because" but He wasn't there and whilst alot of what my counsellor said to me was difficult to swallow, she did make alot of sense. It certainly shouldnt feel like you are to blame for he break up though.

Stick with it, but if you think she is wrong say so - you do not have to take everything your counsellor says as read, you HAVE to question it, that way it wont be a two way thing.

You seem alot more rational and calm now though, that is good.

I second just being honest with her. This is both a professional and intimate relationship, a two way street. I would personally not prepare a statement (though not a bad thought), I'd say something really truthful like 'I was taken aback by you asking me to see it from his point of view and question me on issuing divorce proceedings, I felt a little blamed and unheard and misunderstood'.

Yes, I did make it plain to her that it was over, no chance of reconciliation, but she feels that I'm being too hasty which tbh some if my friends have also said that. But even if he changed his mind there is still the betrayal which in my mind now is the biggest problem, the deceit of hiding his contact with her. So it is my decision now that it is over, not just his iykwim .

Just had to text H as the son of a man who works for him has just been found dead in his flat. 21 years old. :-( makes you think, life is really too short for all this crap....

Shit that's awful! The poor dad!

Why did you have to text your h with this sad news?

Because the lads father works for my H so I felt it was only fair to tell him the news so he is prepared if the father rings him. I kept it to the point nothing else and have not replied to his response.

Why did you feel the need to 'prepare' him?

Surely it would have been more appropriate for your h to hear direct from his employee so that he could give his spontaneous regrets - although that, of course, begs the question of how you came to hear of his son's death it before your h did?

I'd far rather hear bad news of this kind straight from the horse's mouth; if I were to hear it second hand I feel there'd be a danger of my natural response to the bereaved person being impeded or otherwise interfered with.

I think you did the right thing Skye, texting the bad news as soon as you heard it. Puts things in to perspective doesn't it? Poor, poor boy

I heard because he is the brother of a friend of mine, plus it's plastered all over the dreaded Facebook. My H is no longer friends with anybody from here on fb so would not have seen it. I would have appreciated it if he had done that for me if it were reversed. The father is 67 and no doubt devastated as it was his only son that he had late in life.

I know I don't owe H anything but I felt it was the right thing to do to notify him. Like i said I kept it to the point and he text back what a shock, I appreciate you letting me know. And that was that.

No further communication required.

Don't like sound of your counsellor. Rushing in with opinions in first session when she should have just been gathering information. Actually, rushing in with opinions at all...

<polishes gun thoughtfully>

Skye, have been lurking on your past two threads and just felt I had to say that your counsellor questioning your judgment on your first meeting does not sit well with me.
Whether to get divorced or not is your decision and yours alone. You have many valid reasons for doing so. So why is she questioning that?

She seemed rattled when i said it was the only option left. She said no it isnt and it's a major decision and what if he changes his mind but I tried to say that he won't and even if he does it's too late now as far as I'm concerned. Maybe she thinks I'm not in my right mind or something!

She said how do you feel about your H now and I said I don't know, I think I hate him :-(

Skye the more you write about this counsellor the less I think she's up to this particular assignment. A referral through a Children's Centre with a newly qualified counsellor who probably hasn't had much experience if any at all of relationships counselling could be like getting a general plumber to undertake a job required by a heating engineer. She sounds like a person-centred counsellor, which is a modality that is unsuited to relationship counselling without further training.

Moreover, she should not be offering opinions, advice or any pronouncements at all and she should certainly not be this challenging of your decisions during the first appointment. I've lurked on your threads very occasionally and FWIW I do think some of your behaviour and decisions needed challenging, but the posters on your threads knew what to challenge (i.e. your initial denial and then the drama fuelling) and what to encourage (going for divorce, creating boundaries in your home, wising up to the reality that this really was an affair) so it's frustrating that someone who is supposed to be a qualified therapist chose to challenge the things you've got right. I'm also very surprised that you know anything about her own personal circumstances because this is another broken boundary in the client-counsellor relationship.

Don't feel you've got to stick with this person. Personally I'd be very honest with her about your misgivings about the session this week and I'd ask a few more questions about her experience in helping clients deal with a marriage breakdown after an affair.

Skye, I have read some of your last thread and this one, and I am also going to echo the others that have said the counsellor you have is not appropriate.

Just went to a book on self-esteem that I've been reading, and it says the goal of this sort of therapy is to:

1) alleviate suffering and,
2) enhance your well being.

If you feel under attack, how is this achieving either of the above? Is it possible to ask for a different counsellor under the same scheme?

At this point, you need someone who can empathise with you, help you see that your feelings are valid, and perhaps provide a few (not many) insights as to your behaviour that are in line with your feelings. You should not feel under attack.

O do come ON, people! It's singularly inappropriate to judge the counsellor after one session, let alone judge her without giving her an opportunity to present her account of the proceedings.

Based solely on skye's account, let's take a look at some of the ground which was covered over a period of most probably not more than 50-60 minutes:

I told her about all the texting and emailing and the way they chatted and she said that they have connected on an intimate level in their heads. She said that my H could easily be infatuated and come crashing down to earth at some point

Seems to me she got that right.

I felt under attack because i said he walked out when I didn't want him to go to a football match, so she was saying how would that make him feel.... I said that my hair appointment had been booked for weeks and booked so that my H was there to take care if daughter. So of course I was annoyed that he was now not going to be around. But apparently I would have made him feel bad that I was stopping him doing something that I wanted to.. It's all about the fact that he said I was controlling but like she said it sounds like he needed someody to organise him but at some point he started to resent it

In her own words, skye felt 'under attack' because the counsellor asked her to consider how her h would feel. That is not materially different to the questions that were asked of skye when she first posted on this board.

Over a period of time, it has emerged that skye is not always the laid back que sera sera type she purported to be. She's sometimes come across as controlling and the $64,000 question is 'was skye's organisation of her h tantamount to controlling him?'

Under the circumstances, it's interesting that the counsellor's observation is that 'it sounds like her h needed someody to organise him but at some point he started to resent it'.

I did feel she was a bit judgemental about the divorce. I told her that H is adamant he doesn't love me. , she said he has shut off and put his feelings in a box and needs time. I said i have been there done that and now he is cold and horrible to me and that i cant go on like it. I have accepted what he is saying and divorcing him as I don't want to stay married to him.

And the divorce is my decision, but i did respect what she was saying from the point of view of why put myself through it if I'm not strong enough

It may be that skye perceives those who don't agree with her as being judgemental, but it doesn't appear to me that the counsellor has been at all inappropriate in exploring the speed with which skye has proceeded to file for divorce, the rational that led her to make this decision, and whether she is emotionally strong enough to make a decison of such finality at this point in time.

she said I was carrying a lot of baggage and thinking that I'm a horrible person because of his letter so her job is to get me through those feelings and out the other side feeling better about myself.

Again, the counsellor's got it spot on.

She did say that we start off in the next session talking about my childhood and then about now but she asked for the story of the marriage breakup, so out it all came warts and all. I think i confused the hell out of her! Jumping from one bit to another as I rambled through my story

I daresay the counsellor was quietly contemplating opening the session with a gentle stroll through the childhood history of her new client when skye burst walked through her door.

Anyone who's read skye's previous posts won't be at all surprised if the counsellor was confused by skye's rambling, unconnected, warts and all account of her marriage breakdown complete with cast of a thousand extras the h, the ow, the ow's dh, the mil, the bil, the niece, her dm, df, assorted friends, neighbours, plus the content of texts/emails/letters/face book.

All credit to the woman for having rapidly honed in on the major issues.

She gave me some stuff to think about and she's going to go away and process everything and decide where we go next to address my behaviour and how I can deal with things going forward

Sounds like a plan to me.

IMO the counsellor should be cut a fuck of a lot of slack given credit for her first session with skye and any judgement as to her capability/suitability should be suspended for the next 6.

If skye doesn't wish to continue her free sessions, the alternatives are for her to pay for post-relationship counselling with Relate or similar, source and pay a private counsellor/therapist, or ask her GP to refer her for NHS pyschological assessment and appropriate therapy for which there will inevitably be a long waiting list.

Izzy, I had to tell her about the Facebook chat, texts and emails as that is a major part now in my decision to divorce. My husband betrayed me with OW on an emotional level and the counsellor agreed that. and i didn't discover this until after he had left and it screwed my mind totally as it added a whole new dimension to everything and i trusted him totally and could not believe he would do that to me. The only people I talked about were my H and Ow and her H , nobody else is relevant.

I always asked my husband before I arranged anything and he always said yes. His own brother told him to grow a pair and say no I'd he didn't want to do something. H just said he didn't want to upset me so he always agreed to everything. Then this all gets thrown back in my face that I organised his entire life and made him do things every weekend when he didn't want to. It's very unfair when he agreed to everything I asked or suggested and now he says I walked all over him.

He has totally fucked my head with that nasty letter that he wrote.

Skye

You've come in for a lot of criticism on here, so HUGE credit where it's due. You feel, in your bones - despite h, OW, friends and this counsellor saying otherwise - that divorce is the right thing to do.

Personally I really think it is too - because you have the foresight to realise that even if he does do a spectacular U turn because he realises OW is just a fantasy he has hurt you, lied to you and damaged your marriage irrevocably.

I have two friends - both h's had affairs but in different circumstances (one's marriage was on it's knees anyway, the other came as a total shock). Both waited a year/18 months to issue proceedings as it seemed more important to come to terms with the emotional side of things. Both regret that because the whole thing was hanging over them for so long when they could have been free to properly move on. Also - and crucially - they felt they could have ended up financially better off if they had gone for it earlier because once the dust settles and the h no longer feels guilty, all their promises about being generous/fair/not wanting the house or whatever, turns to shit.

I understand why you texted h re this man's son. How awful - absolutely awful.

Re your counsellor, yes I am still dubious but do try having an honest talk with her about this and see what comes out of it.

x

Yes I agree that it's very confusing to OP for the counsellor to say no don't start the divorce in case h changes his mind! I can't understand why she would suggest that!

Hi Skye, I have been lurking but not posted before.

Perhaps the counsellor has picked up some of your 'mixed messages' - the type of behaviour that other posters have mentioned, which on the surface seem to aimed at showing H that its over, but actually appear to be cries for help.

I know how confusing it is. My emotionally abusive H is moving out next week and he has been the picture of a perfect dad and husband all week - spending time with the DCs, showing an interest, being supportive of me and opening up to me emotionally. I feel torn inside, wanting to show him that I'm going to be fine and then breaking down because I don't know how I'll manage, but in my head I know the separation is still the right thing for all of us.

But somehow divorce is not the priority. I took off my wedding ring as a 'sign' that its over (after a very bad row) but actually, there's no rush to make it official as that would be a knee-jerk reaction on a scale much larger than taking off the ring and him moving out.

I have no expectation that he will return to the family home (once he has left I know I won't want him to, no matter how nice he is at the moment) but perhaps your counsellor is trying to point out that by going for a quick divorce, its yet another attempt to prove to him how 'over it' you are, when in fact you are so clearly not.

There's no reason why you should be over it - its a massive thing to deal with. But just accept it and deal with that instead of forcing an end to it, in the hope that it might elicit the reaction you crave. It won't love.

Very wise post doingit. Yes perhaps counsellor picked up mixed feelings & so pursued that line of uncertainty.

Interesting post Doingit, and I am sure you are right that the counsellor's picked up on Skye's mixed messages.

Re the divorce, I don't agree Skye is doing this for reaction actually. I think she fully appreciates how final and serious divorce is and it pains her greatly - but it needs to be done. I'd give the same advice to you too - get it over with if you are serious about splitting and don't have it hanging over you and potentially have more of a financial fight on your hands.

It's very interesting that Skye's husband is 100% sure he will never go back to her, it's dead. But is 100% sure he doesn't want a divorce. I think this is because he's too busy leading his fabulous new life, he doesn't want to even think about the admin and stress of a divorce. Why should he? It's interfering with his stress free new life. But where would that leave Skye, paralysed and fearful and clinging on to hope that he will return, unable to move on? Of course OW has her own reasons for not wanting them to divorce (and will be influencing h) - namely that she's not sure what she wants yet.

I understand what you're saying about having the divorce hanging over her (and me!) Proud - x-posted with your wise words about using the guilt to get the best deal! I do understand how final and serious it is, but I'm not sure that doing it sooner will make it any less painful or easier for myself or for Skye.

Skye, I know you've had longer to deal with your situation, but I'm not sure you're any further down the road of actually accepting it and by the sound of it, neither is your H. He too has been sending you mixed messages and all this game playing has clouded your true feelings. In your head you know this is the best thing for you but I don't think your heart has caught up yet.

Continue with the counselling and if you're not happy with this particular one, try someone else as you need to get to the bottom of who YOU are and what YOU want and at the moment that is so bound up with your Ex you don't appear to know where you fit in the world without it being in relation to him. Even the death of the lad you texted him about, you thought of it in relation to Ex - how would it affect him - when it really isn't anything to do with you and you had no need to think of Ex's feelings about it.

You are your own person and he is his. Find yourself in all of this.

Hope you are ok DoingIt, you have had a long hard journey by the sounds of it and seem to be doing so well. Of course you and Skye are individuals and have to find your way through this.

It is extremely rare for a client whose hurt and shock has been relatively recent to present the story in a logical and coherent fashion. For a counsellor to conclude anything other than there is er....still shock and hurt, is unwise.

As it is to disclose anything about one's personal circumstances, to pronounce that the client was 'rushing into divorce and should put it on hold' and to ask loaded questions that will understandably be perceived by the client as critical of her actions.

And if a counsellor is hypothesising that one of the problems was that Skye's husband may have felt over-organised and controlled, despite this not being a problem voiced by him in all the years before he formed a friendship outside the marriage, it's a strange line of questioning to imply that this was Skye's fault and not a weakness in her husband for failing to articulate this grievance before he met the OW, lying through his teeth about this being an issue in the first place or even more revolutionary, organising himself like a capable adult.

As in RL, there are counsellors who are far more tolerant of men's bad behaviour and believe deep down that women are somehow responsible for it.

I wonder how she would have dealt with a male client whose wife had behaved like Skye's husband - had an affair with her best friend's husband, left her child twice and then complained afterwards that a contributory factor was that her husband moaned when she kept going out instead of contributing to family life to the extent that her husband couldn't even go to the barber's without worrying that there would be no-one able to look after their child.

Do you seriously think this particular counsellor would have asked the devastated husband how his wife might have felt when she couldn't do what she wanted to do?

BTW, I missed the elephant - can anyone enlighten me?!

L

Lol, my first thread was about trying to reconcile while ignoring the elephant in the room, the second was Sod the elephant looks like its really over, but now there is no elephant at all, lol. All elephants have been seen and firmly removed !

I will see how next weeks session goes, I think I need to back firm that I am divorcing him as its what I want and ask her not to focus on that but on the problems. Maybe I should give her a copy of my H's letter and she will understand what he has done to me. And write it all down so she has a better order of events.

Ok but Skye, she is not a lawyer, a police officer or a teacher! You don't have to spend your precious sessions 'proving' to her why what you are doing is right and providing evidence.

What I meant, I think others mean, is tell her how her questions (asking you how you felt your dh felt in that final argument) made you feel. Tell her it made you feel blamed and judged (if that is how it made you feel).

Yes explain why you want to divorce and yes show her the letter if you want as that will be a place to start discussing your feelings and trying to process and come to terms with them.

Yes I need to ask her why she turned it round on me as i feel bad enough already about everything. I know I am a bit of a control freak compared to H in that I like to be organised - to give you an example , if we were going out for lunch on Mothers Day I would book several weeks in advance. One year I left it to H to book, he tried to book somewhere 2 days before and was then horrified that everywhere was fully booked and we couldn't get in anywhere........

If i reminded him to do stuff he got fed up so I stopped reminding him and then it didn't get done, his sisters birthday card not sent, friends not available to visit as he didn't arrange it before we went all the way back to his home town.......

And back to the hair appointment arranged solely for that day because he was going to be home then he changed his plans!

So I don't think I'm controlling, just organised!!

Been to see my grandparents today for the first time since we split. It was difficult because they both thought the world of him and are devastated by what he has done. They are 90 and 87 and don't need the stress of it. I managed to be very positive for them and stress that me and DD are fine and better off without him. They even offered me money to help with the mortgage which brought a tear to my eye as they don't have much..

Meh, the allegations of being 'controlling and organising him' are just smokescreens Skye. Before he had his eye on his friend's wife, he was probably only too happy that he was allowed to get away with being lazy and disorganised - and I wouldn't mind betting, trading on the fact that if some things didn't get done (e.g. birthday cards) you would get some of the blame for that.

It's called 'scraping the barrel' because he couldn't accuse you of the usual old chestnuts like lack of sex, not understanding his hidden depths etc. so he had to find some completely non-existent reason for why he wanted out. Not that having an affair with his friend's wife had any relevance to the situation, of course

I started divorce proceedings against Twunt, within a week of throwing him out. 22 years of marriage that I didn't want to end. But I KNEW that there was no way I would ever have him back; his affair (although at the time vehemently denied) had smashed our marriage to pieces. When I saw my solicitor and asked her to file for divorce, she said that it was very early days. I said that I realised this, but I was adamant. She nodded and said, yes, I think you are. I knew, and she knew.

You don't need a counsellor's permission to divorce; you're a grown up hunni, if it's what you want, you do it: if a thousand counsellors and solicitors had told me I was wrong, I would have ignored them. You know when divorce is the only option, because although it's bloody awful, it's the only option open. If you feel that way, then you're on the way to doing the right thing, and no one will put a doubt in your mind.

I am sure now. I no longer feel that I want him back. I know he ended it and I was desperate for him to change his mind but I now feel that I am worth more than that. I no longer trust him and I no longer respect him. He is immature in that he walked rather than try and sort things out and that he has walked away from all responsibilities and left me with the mortgage and bills to pay and a house to maintain all on my own, whilst also running my business!

I am strong and he is weak. I will get through this and be happy. He will probably end up sad and lonely in a flat somewhere with only his immature friends and dysfunctional family for company.

Well said skye! You are strong and he is weak. I love it. Onwards and upwards luv

Well done love you sound really strong. Are you beginning to believe that you could be happier in the future than you were with him?

Fabulous, well done lady! You are indeed very strong and since you've stopped all the Facebook crap you are even stronger and will gain so much more self respect.

Hope you have a good day - what are you up to? Is dd with exh for Father's day?

<waves at midwife>

x

Yes H us having DD as usual today. She has made him a card so i didn't have to buy one and I haven't bought him a present. He doesn't deserve one, I am going to my mum and dads for dinner

I'm just trying to think of it as any old Sunday. On Fathers Day we always used to go out for a nice car very dinner and then a walk along a beach and just spend a lovely day together. But he has chosen to walk away from these things so I can't waste my energy getting upset about it. DD is spending the day with him so that's the main thing for her not that she understands about fathers day yet

You do sound stronger

[waves at proud]

These "special" days are always hard as a single parent - it kind of emphasises the feeling of being alone but it's great you can go to your parents & have some company.

I feel strong but I feel lonely too especially weekend evenings. Once he starts to have her overnight sometimes at least then I will be able to go out even if it's to the neighbours for a bottle of wine.

He needs to hurry up and get his own place do that he can have her overnight and also start to face up to the reality of life on his own with no money left after paying all the bills! He is still in his cost bubble with his friends and has no idea until he gets out there on his own

Somebody said to me yesterday that they reckon he will come crawling back in a few months and I said maybe he will but I won't be around when he does! And I totally mean that now. He has proved himself to be a weak immature person who can't face up to reality and runs away, so we don't need him in our life.

COST = cosy!

skyebluesapphire Sat 16-Jun-12 23:30:25
I am sure now. I no longer feel that I want him back. I know he ended it and I was desperate for him to change his mind but I now feel that I am worth more than that. I no longer trust him and I no longer respect him. He is immature in that he walked rather than try and sort things out and that he has walked away from all responsibilities and left me with the mortgage and bills to pay and a house to maintain all on my own, whilst also running my business!

I am strong and he is weak. I will get through this and be happy. He will probably end up sad and lonely in a flat somewhere with only his immature friends and dysfunctional family for company.

skye, this is healthy. This is good. This is totally at odds with all your FB kerfuffles/texting and need to still be engaging with him on some level.

stay strong, love

He texted me at 7pm to say running late and back at half past. He was late last week too so I texted him back and said Ok but this is the second time you have been late so you can bring her back at 6.30pm from now on as she needs to unwind before bedtime. This is for her benefit as she has preschool in the morning.

He didn't reply...

I thought you were going to reset expectations on the contact hours, skye? This reads more like you're gradually withdrawing time to punish him.

I assume you didn't discuss this when he brought her back?

From what you've said, you put your dd outside the front door when his car rolls up and when he returns her, you close the door in his face as soon as she's inside.

This seems a juvenile 'ya, boo, sucks to you' way of facilitating contact.

Can't you can find it in yourself to engage in a brief but courteous verbal exchange with him for the sake of your dd?

he's taking the piss

I don't blame you for re-setting the time he has to bring her back

is he one of those fucking annoying people you have to fudge a half-hour for ?

if you want her back at 7, you have to insist on 6:30 ?

if that is the case, do what you have to do

I think those are far too late for a 4yo though, like I said on the other thread

I would go for 10-4, I know you said you are leaving it for mediation, but...

in the meantime, you play his stupid games ?

I wouldn't, and I don't think you should either

I bet he had her home closer to 8 (would bet my best shoes on it)

O no, AF <<horror>> Surely not your best Manolos? Even though you're onto a cert

He did get back just after 7.30. I don't want to cut the hours too much as I will expect him to have her overnight when he has his own place.

I don't want to speak to him at the moment but I am working on it. I said to my friend earlier that I am aiming to speak civilly to him in a couple of weeks. I am trying to work myself up to it. I just can't bring myself to even look at him at the moment. I just want to smack him with his trendy young clothes and stupid grin. He irritates me....

If I am the slightest bit friendly he will think that everything is ok and that we are friends and I don't want that. I am also waiting to see what his reaction is about the divorce petition as if he turns nasty I dont want contact with him.

As he's got his feet firmly under the ow's and her mug of an h table, it may be some considerable time before he gets his own place, at which time contact can be reviewed to take account of overnight stays.

In the meantime, put the needs of your dd first. She needs to be home a lot earlier than 7.30pm.

izzy, I know this is hard for some to believe, but my "best shoes" are my Birkenstocks

not a Manolo, nor a < them with the red sole, have forgotten the name, see wot I mean?> in sight

I would kill anyone who tried to remove my Birkies from my feet though

I agree - and anyway, when he does have her overnight you will still want her home at a more reasonable hour on a Sunday, esp when she has school in the morning.

7:45 is too late for a 4yo

it just is

everybody knows that

registers my envy for Anyfuckers Birkies - i so want a new pair, the T-bar type, but i am putting of buying a pair because they HURT when you first wear them Sorry, as you were

Wow - skye! What a change - you grew a pair!! Well done to you for toughening up to this twunt, i read and commented on your threads with another name, but not a significant poster. So pleased to see you are finally able to be objective and have gotten angry, being angry is good, so long as its not obsessional. You are going to be OK xxxx

doggie, they have never hurt me, they feel like butter on my feet immediately

are you buying a size too small ?

Mainly a lurker, and don't want to depress you, but, it may be wise not to make any assumptions regarding overnight stays. To be honest, he's not shown any great interest so far, and that may not change, even if and when he gets his own place.

Hopefully, I'm wrong, but best to adjust your expectations downwards, and then be surprised than be disappointed by him again.

It won't make any difference to your DD, in the longer term, as she is so young she wont remember anything else.

When he has her overnight he can bring her back earlier as he will have had her all day. She starts school in September so I think she will need to be back by 6pm at the latest then. Mr "I hate being organised" will have to organise his bloody day so he can get her back on time! DD asked me if I was angry as Daddy said mummy is cross because we are late! But I sent a perfectly reasonable text to him. Arse.

On the subject of shoes I only ever wear mules trainers or boots.... Have got weak ankles don't wear heels ever :-)

I don't wear heels either

bloody awful things

Laboutin, AF... you could paint the soles of your Birkies red.

My tootsies are currently in luxuriating in the foot heaven of a, coincidentally, bright red Madrid number - I so wish they and I were there.

When buying Birkies the advice always seems to be to size down but as it's common for one foot to be larger than the other, sizing up works for me and they fit like the proverbial glove from the off.

I buy the size I am in Birkies

the foot bed then rests where it should

my shoes wardrobe also consists of several pairs of Converse, gladiators and flip flops for spring/summer

and flat riding boots for winter

I am such a MN footwear cliche, it has to be said

Try Frye boots, AF. Wrangler boots do it for me too.

I can recall teaming ballgowns with doc martens but in the interests of appearing non-muttonesque, these days I opt for 3" heels - purely of the footwear variety, you understand .

have tried Frye boots, but I am of the long legged build and they finish mid calf which looks a bit daft on me

or do I mean Fly (London) boots ?

I might mean them

Frye are cowboy-type things, yeah ?

I love my fly boots I don't spend anything on clothes (all from charity shop) but have been known to spend £250 on boots before Haven't done that for a LONG time though. I am very much a comfort girl though, used to do heels in the past, leave that to my DD now.

As a counsellor, you don't rush to make formulations, or give advice, in the first session. She sounds woefully inexperienced

Oh God, sorry, I thought I had read whole thread !!

Yep, Frye cowboy gal boots. <<sings Rawhide theme song>>

The counsellor is relatively inexperienced Jamie but that doesn't mean she's incompetent or that she should be harshly judged on the first session.

Jamie, but what are your thoughts on the footwear sitch ?

Sounds like you need a pair of those black patent thigh high numbers to accomodate your <<stealth boast or what?>> long legs, AF

nooooo

no thigh high numbers here

nyway enough with the shoes, what about me? It's all about me me me, me, me, lol. Just remember that when I reach another 1000 post that half of them were about shoes

Daughter still awake and it's now 9.30 but she seems to be like this every night at the moment..., she has laid all her teddies out on her bedroom floor and covered them with tea towels in case they get cold.

I'm watching Parenthood and eating chocolate....

You don't fool me AF - you've got a pair of Miss Whiplash boots that come up to your knees tucked away in your closet

This thread has suddenly gone all style and beauty - eek!

Skye, have been thinking about the other day when you were finding it difficult to do stuff, e.g. changing bulbs, that your H used to do. That kind of stuff can be really stressful, felt for you. Might it help to make a list of the things he used to do, that you find tricky, then work it out, get friends and family to show you stuff, take notes on what to do etc. And to gather recommendations for fab tradespeople to call should something essential break down. My aunt did those things when my uncle died.

Also, has your solicitor helped you sort financial stuff out so that if he gets into debt you won't be liable? He sounds like the sort of bloke who would spend a lot and be all "oh but I was stressed, I couldn't possibly keep track of my credit card"!

Hope you have a good week.

skye ? this thread is all about you ?

are you kidding ? This is about us (and me and my long legs)

ha! The only "sharp" thing in my closet is my tongue

So the new elephant in the room is shoes? Ha! Seriously though Skye it's ace to see you managing to be so lighthearted. It is amazing to see the difference in you. Well done. (And well done to the fabulous ladies who've helped you along the way)

Me and my short legs are feeling very inferior now this is why I can't change lightbulbs!

My dad is going to show me how to start the lawnmower so then I can mow the lawn. He fixed it the other day for me. Had been waiting months for H to put it in his van and take it to the repair shop! I know now how to get the hall lampshade off, it's been up since we moved in snd bulb only just gone 6 years later so forgot how it worked lol.

Just got to buy this stepstool or ladder or something do that I can reach the stuff in the cupboards top shelf and the DVDs which are on shelves at ceiling height.....

I always hated being 5'3" but I hate it even more now that 6'3" H is gone!

Skye - get a step ladder. Far more practical than your pie in the sky, head in the clouds, soon to be ex 6 ft 3 dick head of a husband! (Sorry to be blunt)

skye, you recently got rid of a foot of useless bollix

treasure that 5ft 3" of wondrousness

Hear hear A.F!

Thanks everyone

Just watching Katie (price) and her son Harvey playing with frogs.

Has Katie kissed it yet in her eternal search for a prince?

Nothing wrong with being 5'3" (coming from a fellow petite one, also 5'3"). Skye, you're sounding really strong and the tone of your posts have changed with that. I know it's really difficult to convey something like tone over text, but your posts are no longer about what he and OW are thinking/ feeling/ doing, but about what you are thinking/ feeling/ doing about the future.

I second Dozer's suggestion of checking where your solicitor is with financial arrangements - you have alluded to your H's financial incapabilities a few times and I would hate for you to be 'shafted' in terms of financial settlement because he is potentially racking up lots of debt or squandering joint finances during this time.

Back to the shoe note - DH lurves his Birkenstocks, but I find them a device of torture! I am, however, completely flat-footed whilst DH's instep is huge... I wonder if that has something to do with it? I do have some very comfy Sketchers and Clarks shoes, oh and some lovely Ash and Janet&Janet ones too. I also have a gorgeous pair of NineWest heels that were partially responsible for me tearing my knee cartilage and anterior cruciate ligament. Heels are my nemesis now

Right the only bloody thing that's cheering me up right now is that I'm 5'8", have 32" inside leg measurement & wear skyscraper heals with ease as long as they're wide fit for my big fat feet Small mercies eh?!

My H went bankrupt in about 1998, not really his fault, he took over his fathers business and customers defaulted on him. BUT when I met him in 2002 his mum had just took out a 15k loan for him to clear his credit card debts.... He then ran up a further £1500 on a card so i put that on a 0% card in my name to save him the interest then he ran up the same again and hid it from me. When i found out i was very upset and let down but he couldnt see what the problem was... I walked out he rang a friend who told him he was a twat and I was right.... So he apologised and we sorted it out and he never did it again. We so nearly split up over that! This was early days before we married. Then when I sold my house he, still had 8k of that left when we bought this house do I paid that off so he could help pay the mortgage here.

I got £88k out of my last house so dont want him to walk away from here with much. I hate being so mercenary but didn't protect myself when we bought because I thought we'd be together forever....

I know he has no money now and must have easily spent £1000 on clothes, laptop printer etc since he went and probably more besides. It's all in his name but I need him off the deeds to the house so that there is no claim if he goes under. He has a £10k business overdraft that he took out to pay tax in January with more tax due in July and January and no money to pay it.... If he puts it all on the card then he could get into serious trouble and I don't want to be dragged down with him..

Maybe you should have told your counsellor the practical reasons why divorce should be sooner rather than later.

I suggest you print off your various threads including this one, highlight the issues you want to tackle, and give your counsellor a copy to read at her leisure.

Contact experian or equifax & declare yourself financially separated. Just takes one letter & hurry up & divorce him to reduce your financial risk in the future. I can't see how he's entitled to anything from the house. There will be evidence you put down the deposit not him.

Trouble is we put the house in joint names snd that's all that concerns the judge according to the solicitor. He also said that no judge will allow him to walk away with nothing. If I could get him to accept say ten grand there is a chance my parents could pay him off and we could have a clean break

I still think Midwife's advice is worth it, skye. Unsecured debt is different from the house, and the last thing you need even for debts that are entirely his responsibility is being chased for payments because they have your address.

Yeah that's the thing, the creditors may not legally be able to make you pay his unsecured debts but they can still make your life a misery!

saw the wife of my old office manager today, I have been keeping them up to date by email as we worked together for a long time and are good friends. She said we have been worried about you. I said thanks, but no need now. I was devastated and in bits, but now I am getting on with my life. I am divorcing him! and she was shocked! lol. She said so soon?! and I said yes, he is adamant it is over and i am adamant that I wouldnt take him back anyway as he cheated on me emotionally with his best friends wife..... She agreed then, that I was making the right decision and that I need to move on!

So I feel positive today. Have worked this morning, spent the afternoon at my mums (she picked DD up from preschool). I am going to spend some time with DD now watching Tom & Jerry (again...).

The one remaining friend that he has locally on the (dreaded) facebook has informed me that he has changed his status from separated to single . What a sad twat he is, I just laughed at how pathetic he has become. A few weeks ago finding that out would have destroyed me! I am so glad I blocked him and them. Dont jump on me, as I am only mentioning this because I think my reaction to the news shows how much further on I am now! (My status still says separated as legally that is what I am until the divorce goes through!)

I asked this person nicely not to tell me anything else, as he is blocked as his life is no concern of mine now.

Well done Skye - perfect response!

Excellent, skye! It's brilliant you're able to detach from their fuckwittery whilst you sail serenely on into the future. Blocked on FB and blocked in life, perfect.

Thanks all. I can't believe how far I've come in such a short space of time. Not speaking to and not seeing him definitely helps with that.

Poor DD tonight was asking why daddy isn't allowed in the house any more. I said its because he chose to live in another house so he doesn't need to come in ours any more but he still loves her very much. :-(

She told my mum today that she likes seeing daddy but is sad that mummy can't be there too. Then she said we are not a family any more:-(

I think she is picking up on stuff I have said and I feel bloody awful now! I told her that me and her are a family and that we are going on hOliday soon and we have got each other and she still has daddy too....

skye, you are getting there in leaps and bounds, m'girl

Detaching has really helped. You sound great.

So, this morning I had the letter from my solicitor. H received his petition on 9 June and then got himself a solicitor. He is not defending it, but he denies that there is an intimate relationship going on with OW. it states that OW and her H are happily married and that he is lodging with them while looking for accommodation. He will not defend it in the context of the divorce, but if the allegations are repeated elsewhere, they will be challenged......

I cant believe that OW hasnt contacted me about this! I am glad she didnt but assumed that she would as soon as she knew about the petition. I was expecting a load of grief, but didnt get it. Also H texted me about would I ever talk to him again, after he got the petition, so again he cant be that pissed off about it? Don't care though anyway. If he had divorced me he could have gone for my unreasonable behaviour, but he chose not to so has to accept this or it will cost him a lot of money. Plus what I have stated is true and he knows it, so his solicitor probably told him that if I can prove what I have said, he cant deny it!

I have made an appointment now to see the solicitor regarding the decree nisi and I have got form E to fill in regarding finances etc. H is willing to negotiate regarding the house and also wants overnight access to DD once in his own accommodation.

I feel so sad again now as its all seeming so final and I still cant believe that it has come to this in 4 months since I was hit with the bombshell.

But I need to stay tough to sort out his financial share of the house, ie as little as possible!! I need to study this form E in detail tonight, I havent had time yet.

Good luck with the paperwork, Skye - I hope you can protect your DD's future from being leeched away.

Maybe the reason why he wanted to talk to you was to talk you out of including that bit about OW or to ask you not to reveal to OW's husband?

You are doing really well!

well he always said he would be fair over the house if we split in the early years (stupid hypothetical conversation....) and he always said that he wouldnt take from me and DD.

Now is the time for him to stand by what he said. I want my solicitor to offer him as little as possible, and H needs to be strong against his solicitor and say I dont care what Im entitled to, it belongs to W and DD ultimately, I will walk away with X amount and be grateful!.

If I ever end up being so stupid as to get married again - then i will protect my house before I get married!

Hi Skye

It's awesome what you have achieved and how well you are doing.

I am also sooo glad you had the bravery to cite the texts and inappropriate relationship with OW on your divorce petition.

How satisfying for you that it is there in black and white and your stbxh is not contesting it.

OK, it may be for the smoothness of the divorce and in his financial interest, but you are spot on that his lawyer will say 'well you can only challenge this if you can prove this isn't true'. Unfortunately for him you can prove it IS true. Whether or not they were having a sexual relationship (they were/are) your evidence shows he was involved with her to the detriment of your marriage.

How very interesting that he said he wanted to remain friends after he received this petition. He knows he did wrong - I bet he is secretly in awe of you that you were strong enough to include it in the petition.

His head is probably spinning - this woman who begged and pleaded for her marriage has seen the wood for the trees. She is taking matters into her own hands, showing him up for the unfaithful nob he is and pressing ahead with the divorce!

Also interesting that OW has kept her texting digits still for once...she can't contest it either can she? My hope is that she is absolutely shitting it and she and your h are desperately trying to keep this from her husband and working out how on earth to come out of this one smelling of roses.

I think they are trying to keep Skye sweet 'cos they are worried she might get in touch with OW's husband.

Just keep them on tenterhooks Skye, they must be Sh*****g themselves, as you are not "communicating" with either of them, it must be very frustrating for them, as they don't know what you might do or say!

You are doing so well at the moment, just think of them both and have a quiet laugh to yourself when you are feeling down!

Your silence must be making them very anxious

Well done Skye, you are the model of strength & calm now. They must be shitting themselves!!!

I'm just having a really bad five minutes again. Crying again which i havent done for days. Been looking at this form E and feeling really sad that in the end it all boils down to who gets what. Also Just had a phone call from a lady about taking over my H's accounts because I used to do it all for him. I know I told him to get somebody else and gave him all the files back but this is just yet another reminder that it's over and that my life is so different now. I know I'm just being daft but I'm really upset about everything again. I was doing so well.

Also tomorrow is the 5th anniversary of OW losing her daughter and in the past I gave always acknowledged the date to her and sent her a message but I can't do that this year . I feel so sad about everything .

My counsellor has had to cancel this weeks season as she has training she can't get out of. She tried to arrange another day but I can't make it any other day.

Season = session

Its such a rollercoaster isn't it Skye. One minute you feel free and strong and capable and the next a little thing catches you and you well up and feel the world crashing down around your ears again.

Its probably best that you don't send her a message anyway. Its her day and anything you did say, however well-meaning, could be misconstrued as you 'sticking your oar in' where it isn't needed. Its sad, but its part of her life, not yours so try not to think about it.

Sending you a hug. I came on here for a bit of hand-holding tonight too, but I feel like a fraud as everyone else's worries seem so much worse than mine. Feeling thankful for what I have. x

Yes emotional roller coaster. Ups & downs - I guess it's normal. Yes I agree don't contact ow no matter what. Chin up chuck - we'll all be ok.

We all seem to be having a shit day today don't we?

I've got a grip now and my friend has texted to say she has arranged a girls night round at my house in a couple of weeks so that's something to look forward to. She was talking about it at school saying x and y and z are coming and I said coming where and she said your house, didn't i tell you?! she had arranged it with them and forgot to tell me lol. It's because they can all get out and I can't so it's great of them to come here.

I hope we all have a better day tomorrow. I was desperate to talk to somebody earlier but everyone was busy and I felt really alone :-(

Ah bless her that's really lovely that your friend is working round your situation.

Lets hope tomorrow is a brighter day all round x

Interesting choice of words your H has used there.

I didn't think that you put he had an intimate (I would say sexual or emotional = intimate) relationship but that he was inappropriately texting her numerous times. Not the same thing if you see what I mean. So he can quite legitimately hand on heart say to himself they weren't intimate (ie had sex) but didn't say we weren't inappropriate because he can't really deny that.

So he is still twisting words to make him look better. He never is going to accept his role in this.

Subtle difference and who cares at the end of the day as long as he fairly gives you back what is yours.

Glad that you are feeling stronger most of the time with no contact. It is still a long way to go, you will get there and emerge the better person out of all this.

I think the solicitor put that they exchanged messages of an intimate nature on Facebook, you can't get rid of me, I can see your cheeky little face, yes snd i can see yours too, back to text H is coming, then went on to refer to the fact that they continued texting emailing etc right through family holiday building up to 100 times a day by the time he walked out.

The main thing is that we did not claim affair we just stated the facts. If his solicitor asked if these things were true he would have had to say yes as he knows I can prove it all. But I can just hear him saying, it's not like that though.....

He wAnts to look up the definition of emotional affair on wikipedia.... It's him and her spot on!!!

Hope you have a better day today. Enjoy the sunshine if you can x

So he texted to see DD again. He is managing to see her every Wednesday but I never know til half way through the day.

She was asking this morning when the weekend is when she will see Daddy and I said four more sleeps, then he turns up to get her from school.

I dont know whether to push him to agree to come every Wednesday but it could mean he could have to turn down a good paying job and it would be sods law it would be the only work he gets all week! Obviously he needs to earn money to pay me...

What do you think is best for your dd, skye? She's getting towards an age where she can understand that she might get a bonus visit from daddy in the week but not every week - but probably not old enough to understand she will see him most Wednesdays (if you see the distinction).

Today can be a lovely surprise for her, whereas my ds at nearly 7 would know which day of the week it was and thus whether or not he could expect the 'surprise' that day.

It's up to him to decide whether he can commit to every Wednesday, and manage that around work or any other commitments he might have. I think personally I would say you think it's fairer to dd to get two planned visits a week rather than one planned and one ad hoc, is he able to commit to that.

Raa!!!!! I'm really really annoyed now!!! DD has just come in saying that she is going to watch OW play netball at the weekend with daddy and her H.

Am I expecting too much that he spends time with his daughter on his own and not watching his text buddy play netball? Is there anything I can say about this without sounding like a total bitch.?

Raa!!!!! I'm really really annoyed now!!! DD has just come in saying that she is going to watch OW play netball at the weekend with daddy and her H.

Am I expecting too much that he spends time with his daughter on his own and not watching his text buddy play netball? Is there anything I can say about this without sounding like a total bitch.?

Unfortunatly not.
What she does with DF when she is in her care is his decision. Just as what she does with you is really none of his business.
Detach detach detach...

Oops, so mad I posted it twice lol. Have just emailed him giving him plenty of notice of the two Sunday's that I want her, saying that i trust he agrees that its not fair on her to miss friends parties. also asked him how much he wants her during the six weeks of the summer holidays and saying that hopefully he will be in his own Place soon and have her overnight in a regular basis. I also said she is unavailable during our holiday.

Didn't mention netball at all ...

Well done skye, restraint is good!

The girls' night sounds fun, I love evenings like that.

He hasn't replied though and it's an hour now ., twat!

I want him out of my life so bad now !! I can't believe I have to put up with him for the next fourteen years because of DD. we should have enjoyed her childhood together and now it's going to be full of arguments about access holidays money etc and her being shuttled between two homes. What a bastard for doing that to her. All because he wasn't man enough to sort our problems out....

Still no reply to my email so what do I do now? Ask for a response or leave it? Maybe he is just seeing it as an Order not a request therefore no response required??...

I just want to slap some sense into him! With a sledgehammer......

I love counselling; in the most caring way possible it cuts through the crap. I was talking to a man the other day who went at crisis point. He is quite evangelical about it now, he said: I was amazed at how [disciplining] it is.

"decide where we go next to address my behaviour and how I can deal with things"

is about your co-dependency. Trust your counsellor, and follow her, and work with honesty on the areas she suggests. The harder you work, the quicker you will change.

Your constant contacting your husband in the guise of this that and the next FB thing?

Is your co-dependency. You are, literally addicted to your H, and live 'through' him. What a burden, why would he want to run away from it????*

Which is why your counsellor will try to get you to see things from his point of view.

*BTDT had the same challenges, the same issues brought up. Not talking to you about anything I haven't gone through already, I know how hard it is. But Please lets not have another 1,000 post on the same stuff before you 'get it' .... try hard to NOT contact him!!!! Fight your addiction. If you don't leave him in 'his' space ... how will he miss you? How will he not push you away the whole time? Don't be afraid of silence and facing yourself: you will NOT die!

I am not contacting him. I reply to his texts with yes or no. I sent him a blunt email yesterday about access to daughter to which I expect a reply so that I can make arrangements.

I have no interest in his life other than that it is suitable for DD.

I do not see him or speak to him. I am certainly not codependent on him. He is blocked on Facebook and when somebody told me something he said on there I politely said I dontt want to know.

And before everyone jumps up and down about the 'miss' comment: I mean, find himself in his own space that does not involve focussing on Skye in order to not look at himself... All the time he is loving focussing on 'her' faults he doesn't have to stand still.

And that goes for Skye too.

Sky - the trouble is that you're expecting him to want to sort things out so that you can organise things for yourself and DD. What's in it for him - absolutely nothing - therefore there's no point in him doing anything - its much better for him not to answer then a) he's got you waiting on his response, b) he can then tell you what HE's going to do when its too late for you to do anything about it.

This is not how things will work best for you.

You need to work out a programme that works for you but gives him sufficient time with DD. Then you need to present it to him - you might give a couple of options here and there - but you need to set it out and say 'this is what's happening, if you have any problems with any of the suggestions or dates you need to get back to me with an alternative by ....'

That way its all clear, you're not waiting on a reply and he can't complain that its all wrong if he later decides something's not acceptable or he wants to change the plans.

I did put it that I was giving him plenty of notice that I want get on this Sunday in August and that Sunday in September snd that he could have her on Saturday instead. So he has probably taken it as an order whereas I was expecting a reply as I said I hope you agree that it's not fair for DD to miss out on these parties.

I don't need to contact him apart from that as he has her every Sunday. I just wanted to give him plenty of warning that I want her those two days. This all comes back to me being organised and him thinking that life just happens around you......

Maybe he just doesn't think a response is necessary, more misunderstandings, which seems to be all that happened during the end if our marriage. I say something as a discussion point and he takes it as read....

I'm past caring now, I've had enough of trying to explain myself to him. I don't need to do that any more.

I think you are doing just fine on the 'detaching' front, Skye.

I don't think you are invested in him or the drama anymore so I think comments have been unfair to you.

I can understand why you are infuriated that he's not replied. I agree that he probably is just tacitly agreeing and doesn't think he needs to respond. Or he is fuming/mulling it over - but that definitely is something for you to put out of your head and leave up to him.

You are finding your way with the co-parenting of your dd and will get there. It must be very difficult, frustrating, upsetting for you especially as you don't want to see or talk to him at all but have to for the sake of your daughter.

Chin up and hang on in there love x

Can you get a read receipt on your texts? If not can I suggest you move to email where you can get a read receipt so that you know if he has bothered to read your message.

If he doesn't reply then just take your DD on the Sundays . You have been very fair and given him plenty of notice. It is for your DDs benefit as much as yours.

If he doesn't reply about the Saturdays then assume he is not going to bother and don't sit around being in for him. Don't make plans but go out with your DD to the park or something. Why should you sit and wait on him?

He doesn't get to not communicate and then do what he wants if he feels like it. He will learn very fast he doesn't get what he wants without being decent and communicating it.

I think you are starting to get there. Can I say we all told you so on the non communication now? I know you had to do what you thought was right and you are the one who lives with themself at the end of the day.

One day you will realise it doesn't hurt any more.

Thank you. Yes in one way I'm glad I did what I did as I'm satisfied that I couldn't have done any more to save my marriage but in another way I regret some of the things I said and did. But overall I can walk away with my head held high knowing that I did all I could.

His behaviour through that period also helped to prove to me that I am better off without him, which I wouldn't have realised if I hadn't gone through it. I think if I had just let him walk away I would have been left with a lot of "what ifs" but now I don't have them now as he proved himself to be a total and utter git.

Now that I have minimal contact with him it is so much easier to deal with. He thinks he is a nice decent bloke and he isn't. I need to stay away from him until I'm sure I can see him without feeling anything other than indifference.

Skye, I have followed all your threads and want to say that I believe you acted entirely appropriately for you. This is YOUR life, it isn't a game or just an internet saga. I do respect the wisdom of the Mumsnetters who have walked a similar path before, but you have to make your own decisions and do whatever it takes for you to keep your head held high - and manage damage limitation on the emotional side.

You are doing so well, and I have seen a change in your posts recently. You are coming through as a strong, independent woman who cares about the well-being of your DD but who won't take any more nonsense from STBXH.

You are limiting the contact with STBXH about arrangements for DD. Write any emails in the form of "this is what is happening unless you tell me otherwise" and then you don't expect a reply. Make sure that you keep copies of these contact arrangements (so email is better than text).

Stay strong and keep facing forward. Don't look back because that is where the pain is. Facing forward helps you to focus on the future - a future that has all the potential to be bright, calm and termendously happy with a civil co-parenting relationship.

Yes I agree that you are detaching much more than even 2 weeks ago. Telling him about contact changes is fair enough although maybe better left until nearer the time?

I agree with those that said do your contact arrangements by email, that way you have a record, a read receipt and evidence if you need it. It is also easier to spell out things rather than cramming them into a text, including when you need to hear by if he doens't agree/need to change arrangements.

Keep it distanced and simple, you are doing really well.

I did email him this time as I wanted a record of it. I also wanted to give him plenty of notice because I am organised and he isnt (one of the many many reasons why he left me........). But I thought it only fair to give him prior warning and I will have to remind him again nearer the time or he will forget.....

I also wanted to tell him that he cant see her while Im on holiday. (I had previously said that he could, but that was weeks ago, when I thought we would still be on a trial separation and I said that he could come down and see her as we arent going very far away, but due to the circumstances and the fact that it unsettles her when she sees him, I dont think its fair to ruin our holiday!) and if we were going miles away he wouldnt be able to.

I also said he needs to think about how much he wants her in the six weeks of the summer holidays. He may need to work, but so do I!!

But if he doesnt respond, then I will wait a couple of weeks, see if we get into mediation before end of term and if not, ask him again at teh end of July and request a response.

Yes fair enough Skye. Business like is good.

Stupid twunt has sent my neighbour a Facebook friend request (after unfriend ing everybody here because he had no friends....)

I said I would rather you didn't because I don't want to know what he is up to and I don't want him to know what I'm up to. So she agreed to ignore it :-)

That's it - don't join in!!

He's getting more desperate because he's beginning to see how well you're detaching. If he's still blocked by you, there is no way he'll be able to see anything of yours anyway, but obviously it's even better that your neighbour has decided to ignore it.

What I found pertinent was when you said 'Now that I have minimal contact with him it is so much easier to deal with. He thinks he is a nice decent bloke and he isn't. I need to stay away from him until I'm sure I can see him without feeling anything other than indifference.'. You realise and understand that his actions still have an ability to affect you and, by distancing yourself, you are minimising his ability/opportunity to do that. And, in doing all the above, we can all see how much you are growing in strength.

Keep going Skye, you are getting there x

Thanks. I'm seeing the solicitor next Tuesday to do the decree nisi and discuss finances...

I still can't believe it has come to this though it's only six months since we had a lovely Christmas together! And now we are getting divorced. Life us so bizarre.!

Spent a lovely day with my DD, my friend and the girl that she childminds. Friend is going through a divorce too and is now reasonably happy with a new man two years after kicking her H out. Proves there is life after divorce.... But she doesn't trust him after her H and it does cause problems between them. I never had trust issues before all this texting with my H and OW but I know I will have issues in future....

Feeling lonely again. I used to love the weekend as it was time to be with H and all together. Now it's just another day and I'm lonely because everybody else is spending family time together so I don't like to bother friends..... Am trapped at home too coz of DD. my mum would probably babysit but where would I go? I don't want to end up down the pub on my own drinking like I used to when I was young free and single!

Hi skye, classic that he is seeking to befriend your neighbour, how pathetic! You sound cool calm and collected.

Don't assume that people in relationships won't want to meet up at weekends. Can be a good time for Dc to play (in the week they're tired from preschool/school and tend to squabble) and partners to get a break from childcare and each other! Eg your friend could meet you with the Dc, her partner gets a break! Or you go to theirs, just a short social thing can break up the day. some people have partners who work at weekends. And there're more and more saturday activities aimed at full-time WOHMs that could be fun. Can't hurt to ask people to do stuff.

Keep onto getting those finances sorted! Nag nag nag.

Seeing solicitor on Tues so will know more after then. Will have to start looking into mortgage etc... I totally hate having to do all this. While I dont want H back now I do want my old life back if that makes sense ?!! Before any of this happened!

want to offer him as little as possible. We have paid off fifteen thousand in 6 years so I don't think he should get any more than that.

Having a bad morning. Not sure why but feel so sad. Think it's because everybody is talking about holidays. We always had a cheap weekend away in June. DD knows that we are going away in a few weeks and keeps asking if Daddy is coming and if we are going to Peppa Pug World again. I know we will have a good holiday anyway but I can't believe how he can do this to his daughter.

Everybody I speak to thInks that his behaviour in just walking out is totally dispicable yet he can't see it. I do despise him now and really don't want him back but I am still so sad for the loss of the three of us as a family.

I want H to end up sad and lonely and regretting that he threw his whole life away just because he wouldn't talk to me and then turned to someone else. I hope he ends up miserable and has a crap life while I go on to meet someone new in time.

Last night I found myself looking at plenty of fish but I can't bring myself to sign up for it properly. I don't think I'm ready yet plus I'm scared of all the weirdos out there! I don't want pictures of cocks being sent to me! There are a lot of local men on there who claim they want a relationship but are they genuine. One man looked nice but his upper age was 38 and I'm 40!

My friend said I'm not ready yet snd that I should wait until I'm divorced and also not until i know that I have no feelings left for H.

Bit of a ranting ramble but I feel like that today. !! Off to the school fete later if the weather holds....

It does make sense, Skye - it's just one thing after another after another needing to be investigated and planned and reorganised. As well as the emotional trauma your day-to-day life has all been thrown up in the air and it's just exhausting having to find the right place to put all the pieces down again.

Hopefully your solicitor can advise on the figure to offer that is reasonable; I fear all the previous promises of making sure you and dd were taken care of may vanish when his solicitor advises him of the same.

No Skye don't start dating yet. Even if you do find a prince among the frogs you need to be in a good strong place yourself to be ready for a good relationship. Also you need to be tough enough to deal with the messing about you inevitably get with dating. Plenty of time for plenty of fish.

Thanks Midwife. Just having a crap day again. I hate the weekends! I know I'm not ready to date really but a bit of flirty chat would be nice...

Hope things are ok with you.

Agree that now is not the time to start even mildly flirting with other men! You need to be happy with yourself so that a) you value yourself enough to choose a loving and caring man and b) you don't scare him off with the inevitable X-bashing that will still be foremost in your thoughts!

Once you don't really care if XH is happy or not (or better still, you hope he is happy so that DD's dad is a pleasant person for her to be with) then you'll know you are ready to start dating.

While I was still with STBXH he worked most weekends, as do some of my friends' Hs. I too was always a bit wary of taking happily marrieds away from their partners, but actually most of my friends do things separately for at least part of the weekend. Hs go running or to the gym, then Ws take older DCs out to the park while H stays home with younger ones etc. Its not all playing 'happy families' for everyone else and even those who do spend time together are generally happy to do things with another family, whether that's a one-parent or two-parent family is irrelevant.

Speak to your friends and try to arrange something for next weekend, or just let it be known that your door is always open for anyone who wants a cuppa and a change of scenery.

Yes weekends are hard, especially if you're not close to your family like me so can't see parents or siblings. As your DD gets older you will become a taxi service for her anyway! Swimming lessons, horse riding, dance classes, etc etc etc will be the order of the day! That's what I do on Saturdays, husband or not.

I went to the school fete, but that was just depressing because its all families again and it makes me sad!!!! On the plus side I picked up some school uniform for my DD for 50p an item! So that will save me a fortune when she starts in September.

Im just cooking a frozen chicken dinner for me and DD to share! couldnt be bothered to do anything else. and then debating whether or not to open a bottle of wine...... I cant even watch a dvd as the bloody shelves are right up near the ceiling. seemed like a good idea when I had a tall H living here! Had to laugh because when he walked out , the first thought that one of my mates had was "oh no, how is she going to reach her dvd's now?!" LOL.

I am a bit brighter again now, but just hate the fooking weekend so much now and I used to look foward to them so much as it meant that H would be around for 2 days! Oh well, c'est la vie!

Where do you live?

Worth going solely for the 50p uniform (love a bargain!)

Dd will love the holiday you have planned.

Open the !

Another vote for avoiding dating sites.

Well dd loved the frozen roast chicken dinner ready meal, fed both of us for £1.50 lol .

Also bought dd a Dora suitcase for £3 so she is well happy. Had a thought about the uniform, bought 2 school sweatshirts for 50p each and they are £7 new. Seeing as H said he would pay for half the school uniform shall I pretend I bought them new and make a profit of £6.50??!! Lol.

It's pouring down again now, all it does is bloody rain at the moment.

Midwife, I live in the southwest of England in a very rainy wet place!

skye - step-ladder. In the meantime, just stand on a chair! You can't literally be unable to reach the DVDs. I've got to get up the ladder to clear out one of the gutters tomorrow, not looking forward to that

I think you see families looking the way you want to see them / thought they would be. Your dd will be very far from the only child there with separated/divorced parents. I noticed lots of mums and dads and grans and grandads at our school fair today, very unlikely they were all packaged up in neat groups like that though!

Get a pair of long BBQ tongs. I use some to get jars from the top shelf in the kitchen

Lol, I have got some BBQ tongs that I use to get cereal packets and kitchen rolls of the top of the kitchen cupboards where H put them.

I really do need to get that stepladder don't I?! The DVDs at ceiling height I cant even reach if I stand on a chair. It seemed like such a good idea at the time right out of the way......

Going to spend tomorrow printing out bank statements etc for this Form E...

Only 3 weeks til my holiday now..

You must be quite near Chocoraisin then. Raining here too in south west midlands!

Sounds like what you need are those floor-to-ceiling steps that whizz along rails from one end of a library shelf to another. At least, I think they do in Lego Indiana Jones, not sure about in real life

I can't imagine how high these ceilings must be, do you live in some kind of Versailles-style palace?!

Hope you're feeling better Skye. I'm 'oop in the north west... Flood warnings and burst river banks all over the place, thank God we live at the top of a (small) valley!

tribpot - now also imagining Ronnie Corbett with his high shelves & ladders in the "Four Candles" sketch!!

I am about an hour away from choco and we are hoping to meet up at some point in the future :-)

Still raining..... Still not opened the wine... God knows how many channels on sky and still nothing on... I might as well cancel it and save £24.50 a month... But I do like my sky plus and you can only have that if you pay for a sky package.... It's my only luxury but it will be the first thing to go if money gets tight.

I bought some baccy the other day but I havent given in and smoked any yet... I haven't smoked for over five years now, apart from the odd one when drunk. I really dont want to start again but I was desperate when I bought it but calmed down before I smoked any!

Skye, haggle with your sky package. I've just got 50% off my sky package and 75% off the HD+ part for 12 mth... They're desperate to keep people, so just keep on threatening them with Virgin/ BT or plain cancellation.

I am a total and utter wuss, so if I can haggle anyone can!

I changed to BT vision recently - you can record & rewind for half the price! If you go through topcashback you get £100 cashback too. Click on the link to see www.topcashback.co.uk/ref/midwife99

ooh, thanks for the info on sky and bt vision both of you. i will look into both of it. I did ask the sky guy when I rang up to cancel sky sports if i could cancel sky but keep sky plus and he said no, but he did say to ring again if i was desperate as they might be able to do something, but i had forgotten about that until you said! might be worth a phone call. plus i will look into bt vision too.

i was really pissed off with H. we added sky sports just before he left and i said to him joking, you had better be hanging around as its a twelve month contract! they still let me cancel though when I explained the situation and cried down the phone at them.....

finally found an old julia roberts film to watch and am sitting on the sofa eating Pringles watching My Best Friends Wedding whilst on the laptop. My life is so wild! I wish i could go down the road to the pub and get drunk!

Oh god Best Friend's Wedding is a killer!!! Sob City!!

Skye

You need a 2 step stepladder here. It perfect for short people like us (am only 5ft myself).

Had a bad run on films lately, watched My Sisters Keeper last week and also The Wedding Date. All I need now is PS I love You and I'll be slashing my wrists for sure!! lol

Friend posted on facebook earlier that she cant decide what song to have for the first dance at their wedding as they dont have a "our song" and they cant agree on a song. its silly things that set me off because then I started to think about our wedding and our first dance song etc! What is going to be hard for me is my cousin is getting married on 27 October and my 7th anniversary would have been 22 October... Hopefully i will be in a much stronger place then, could even be divorced possibly..... but I know it will still make me sad. I know its a long way away, but it makes me sad to think of people getting married, so full of hope and so happy and never thinking that it might end after a few years....

sorry, going on a downer again, somebody give me a slap please!!

<slap!> it's for your own good, woman!

My Best Friend's Wedding is a must-watch just for the scene where they sing Say A Little Prayer in the restaurant. The lobsters crack me up. All the emotional stuff though - bugger that. I would watch The Long Kiss Goodnight. Geena Davis kicks serious booty and saves her dd into the bargain. Much more uplifting than watching Julia getting soppy over a boy and trying to nick him off Cameron Diaz. Plus no man alive should be forced to choose between Julia and Cameron, it's just cruel.

Other people's happy events are very hard to deal with - even when you wish them every happiness, as I think midwife mentioned on her thread today. But you had some good years of marriage and you have dd. It's not a failure, it's just ended.

NO MORE ROMANTIC COMEDIES.

Watch outright comedies, action films, thrillers, horror, whatever you like EXCEPT for romantic comedies, okay?
NO MORE ROMANTIC COMEDIES!

Life is NOT like a romantic comedy. People are not inherently flawed until they are conveniently partnered off. Boarderline stalking and abuse is not romantic. No one deserves to be humiliated/teased into accepting a date. Everyone can be happy single.

Oh! And love doesn't change people, redeem people, save people, or do anything else with magic and sparkles to people.

Love, if done right, can comfort and warm and strengthen people, like a good hot drink. But it can only help you be your best self, not magically make you someone else, someone different or better.
Romantic comedies are a lie, a sham, and part of the "Get a partner and be in love OR ELSE YOU ARE A FAILURE" genre of bullshit that NO ONE NEEDS.

No more romantic comedies!

Watch Calendar Girls, Made in Dagenham, Double Jeopardy, Casino Royale, Attack the Block, Shaun of The Dead - watch ANY BLOODY THING except romantic comedies!

I've got The Woman in Black recording tonight from box office and also have Silence of The Lambs. That will make a change :-)

Well daughter is with her dad, i had great plans but haven't done a stroke of work, been to the shop and bought a roast chicken dinner and a paper. Just watching Passenger 57 that I recorded yesterday. Need to motivate myself to do some accounts work!!! Oh well there is alwAys tomorrow, am quite enjoying a quiet peaceful day at the moment :-)

Enjoy the day, skye! You don't have to spend your quiet day working.

I'm getting behind with my work though and it also means that payment is held up too as I can't bill til I finish it! And got loads of work coming in through July!...

So I seriously need to motivate myself to get it all done, that's the only trouble with working from home, there is nobody to make you do it!

Feeling very tired today though so that's my excuse... I just want to go to sleep now!

Still done sod all and now it's 4.30pm! I told H last week to bring her back 6.30 from now on as he was late two weeks running. No doubt he will bring her back early tonight so he can go back and watch the football with his mate.

Feeling lonely now just had a few tears again. All my neighbours are out and friends are busy. Found out earlier that two different friends who have been separated from their husbands , are both trying again with them. I'm pleased for them but sad for myself. Of course there's nothing to say that they will work out but I hope they do if that's what they want.

Why oh why can't my H see what everybody else can, that he is infatuated with OW? He is the only person I know who thinks what he has done is acceptable! Not one person has said yes of course its fine to text another woman 100 times a day!!!Everybody else thinks he is a total and utter shit who is going to come unstuck when she gets tired of playing him, which she will at some point. He has ruined all our lives just because he wouldn't talk to me.

Sorry, on a right bloody downer again. Need to go and eat some cheesecake or something! I do know I'm better off without him now and I couldn't take him back as I'd never trust him again. I just need to hold on to that.

skye, I said somewhere upthread that I thought this disturbance in your relationship was probably inevitable at some point when you stopped being able to put him on a pedestal and actually needed some support from him. He is too weak and selfish to be able to offer that. If he had been somewhat more mature you might have been able to talk about it but I'm not sure it could ever have resolved itself to your satisfaction, not long term.

Fingers crossed for your friends. Are you the sort of person who dislikes being alone? (I don't mean relationship-wise, but in day-to-day life). Have you ever lived alone as an adult? It's a big adjustment (I know you're not living alone now as you have dd with you) but it can be a liberating one.

I know I will be told off for encouraging game playing, but I would go out so your ex can't bring your dd back early just because the match is on. He hasn't specifically requested an earlier drop off, I take it?

Sky you are doing so well. To have your own business is brilliant be proud of yourself. You can make it as big as you want now as all the income will be yours and your daughters. I'm in same position as you but I don't have any family around to babysit so every week I invite a different friend round on a Thursday night for pizza and wine. Means I get some social life. Friends round for a lunch BBQ is doable too just have plenty of drink available. Today I had to change four lightbulbs and get plumber round for leaking washing machine. You can do it. It is hard but you are a tough woman with her own business. Go girl!!

No, I told him last week to bring her back at 6.30 from now on but he never replied. So if he doesnt then I will have to say it again tonight. He was bringing her back too late for bedtime.

I lived on my own for about 2.5 years before my H moved in but i did get lonely then and used to go to the pub every Friday and Saturday night just for company. And I had friends then who would come round during the week etc but ten years on we are all either married with kids or living elsewhere. I'm not the sort of girl who cant be without a boyfriend, I spent years in my own between relationships but I do get lonely.

I should have gone out somewhere today but stated home intending to work then did nothing bar watch tv feeling tired ! Hopeless!

I did think my H was a wonderful kind lovely man but that man seems to have gone. I think he is feeling bad for what he's done, hence him wanting me to be able to talk to him etc. but I'm not there yet. I don't like to hold grudges as I've seen my mum being consumed by bitterness over things that were said and done years ago and I have never been like that but at the moment it's too raw to be able to let it go and move on.

I know I am so much stronger than I was. I always dip again at the weekend...

Yes it is possible to build a life on your own. I've done it before & can do it again. Can't face all that dating agin though!!

I can't face the thought of dating either.. Never really done that, my last couple of relationships just developed from first meeting and we were together all the time. I've never been out on loads of dates with different people , which my friend says Internet dating is all about. I understand that because you are not going to like everybody you go out with but it seems like such a lot of hassle. But I also know that I'm not likely to meet someone at the local pub..... (although I did meet H there lol).

Twunt is late too, I said 6.30....

STILL not back!

7.15 he got back.... He obviously completely ignored my text last week saying seeing as you can't be in time for 7 you can bring her back for 6.30.....

I will bring it back to 6pm in September when she is at school full time. Hopefully he will be having her overnight by then so it won't be a problem to get her back earlier...

God skye, what a complete FUCKWIT! Has he brought her back at 7:30 as you originally agreed?

Sorry, cross-posted. Isn't he deliberately bringing her back 15 mins 'late' (from your original agreement) every single time?

I would put it down in writing again that you wish for her to be returned by 6 at the latest in order that she can properly wind down before bed and pre-school, could he please confirm via email that he has received this request.

well, 7pm was the original time, I moved it from 5.30pm on the grounds that he brought her back after tea, and that gave me at least half an hour with her before bedtime. But he is bringing her back later each week, so last week I said 6.30pm from now on, which he has totally ignored......

I will see what happens next week, then send him a strongly worded email saying that it has to be 6.30pm from now on and 6pm from the beginning of September. and ask for a response......

Its now 8.30pm and she is in her bedroom throwing a wobbly because her toys wont do what she wants them to do......

Skye, I just wanted to say that when you are on your own a lot and doing all of the childcare/working/cleaning, you will be tired. I find by Sunday, I'm exhausted and doing even a small amount of work is too much. I would switch off one day a week, your one day without her, and try to relax/phone friends/catch up on stuff. There's an art to pacing yourself when most of the responsibility falls on you.

so I worked this morning, came home, went to a school meeting about daughter starting in September (uniform and all that stuff!), came home and sorted out all the paperwork that I need to take to the solicitors tomorrow for Form E. Have been putting it off, but finally copied everything. have also emailed my financial advisors with details of my income in regards to getting a mortgage in my own name.... I feel this is the best option, as it means that he will definitely be off the deeds then. Otherwise he may have to stay on the mortgage but sign a deed of transfer, but with his potential debt probs, it would be best to get him off now. Also, if they would give me enough money, I could pay him off now too depending on what he will take. That would be a good feeling too, as there would be no further connection with him (other than DD obviously). On the other hand part of me thinks that making him wait 14 years for the money would be great :-)

I dont have 12 months bank statements though, is that likely to be a problem? I can only go back 3 months online. I could probably order copies but will probably have to pay for them....

and another question for all you divorcees out there.... when you are divorced, if you keep your husbands name - do you stay as Mrs or do you become a Ms or a Miss? Im confused! I would dump husbands name, but think better to keep, certainly while daughter still young, so we have the same name. Plus I used my name in my business name, so complicated to change everything, plus its better than my maiden name....

I think Mrs should only be to use if you are married, not once you are divorced, but Miss indicates never married? Ms seems the one to use, but my (daft) friend said that would mean Im "batting for the other side" - her words not mine before you all shoot me!

So what title do you use?

I'm keeping 'Mrs'. It's annoying that mens' titles don't indicate what their marital status is.

I'll probably go with Ms as the idea of being defined as his wife forevermore will kill me, but I too want the same name as my DCs.

I'd complain if you really can't go back more than 3 months online, there maybe a very complex way of going back further. My bank makes you enter dates.

I've always been a Mrs. I feel better as a mummy being addressed as mrs child's surname!

You're lucky your school manage that - our teachers usually call out "X's mummy" which is quite sweet I suppose and saves any confusion if parents aren't called the same name.

i think im inclined to agree really, I think that to stay as Mrs is probably the thing to do, it just seems odd though as I wont be married any more :-(

Just having another wobbly five minutes, looked at some old photos. He wasnt unhappy for years, I know he wasnt. There are some lovely photos of me and him together and with DD, all happy and laughing. Its just a lie he told to be able to walk away from us.

I know it, I keep telling myself not to fall for his bullshit excuses. I know he wasnt unhappy until he started talking to OW and getting texts saying "oh you're so sweet" blah blah blah. Of course he thinks she's fucking wonderful, I never told him that did I?!

You wanted him to bring your dd back earlier than 7.30pm for good reason but sending a text saying seeing as you can't be in time for 7 you can bring her back for 6.30 implies that your only intent is to punish him for his previous tardiness by curtailing the time he has with his dd.

If he doesn't have his own place by the time you you renegotiate his contact to take account of dd's schooling, I would suggest you avoid any mention of his previous failing to adhere to dd's return time.

yes, maybe I should have worded it better.... When I email him about bringing her back at 6pm from September onwards, I will refer solely to the fact that she is starting school and cant be late to bed.

I will also suggest that when he is able to have her overnight, he will be gaining extra time with her, so bringing her back at 6pm wont be cutting the time short.

But if he is late again next week, then i shall say, please bring her back at 7pm as agreed for her benefit.

I think 6 o'clock return is late enough for a 4 year old all year round! My 8 year old comes home at 6pm from her Dad's - she has a bath & hair wash & needs to get ready for school in the morning.

yes Midwife you are right. i will let it go for now as there is only 3 weeks left of term so I dont mind about her bedtime during the holidays, but I will tell him 6pm from September onwards, due to school. If he gets his arse in gear and finds his own place, he can pick her up Saturday afternoon sometimes, then he will have her all day Sunday and part of Saturday so he will have much more time with her.

I think that every other weekend is too long to go between seeing him at her age, as a week to her seems a long time, so a fortnight would be unbearable for her, so was going to suggest that for now he has her every Sunday and one whole weekend a month? Then as she grows older, she can stay with him every other weekend which is what my friends kids all seem to do. Maybe the third weekend in every month

Feeling sad, sat in the solicitors office about to take the next step in ending my marriage. I could be divorced in six weeks, but no doubt it will take longer because of all the financial stuff.

So so very sad. What happened to my loving kind husband that made it come to this?... I guess I will never know what truly went on in his head as he will never be honest with me.

He is such a fool.

I know what you mean - we feel so powerless atm

"I guess I will never know what truly went on in his head as he will never be honest with me. "

The saddest thing is, he will never be honest with himself either, because that would require a level of humility that these blokes seem to be lacking.

For me it helps to think that the 'loving kind husband' only ever existed in my mind, or if he did ever exist he has since died and will never come back. It sounds morbid, but actually the feeling of grief that I have fits with that idea and it stops me from wondering what might have been (at least in my more rational moments!)

When I look at him now I feel no love or affection, just irritation and anger, so that can't be the loving man I once knew. Its almost like one of those alien movies where someone has taken over the body of the person you used to know but you realise they're not really in there.

Doingit- very true words, that's how I feel too, that the man I loved no longer exists. That is how different he seems to me now.

Well. The decree nisi is signed, firm E is done, probably be a month before I hear anything solicitor said. Then we wait for him to ask for what he wants and negotiate from there. Why oh why did I put the house in joint names when I'd bought a third outright?!

Never again!!

Look after yourself the next few days.

I know you were down over the weekend with this coming up and it is perfectly understandable. You need to mourn for the death of your marriage and in a way the death of the man you thought existed.

Sofa, a movie and icecream/wine whatever you need.

/hugs

Just had another cry. Can't help myself at the moment. Thinking of all the concerts we used to go to together, the holidays, all the things we used to do together, everything that's gone now. I'm sat here crying and he's probably sat having a jolly time with his friends.

Need to get a grip. I have my holiday to look forward to, although I know it will be hard, it will be the first time and the next time will be easier. I've got lots of stuff to look forward to in July.

And most importantly of all, I have my daughter, I see her every day and she loves me more than ever before and we are so close now. She still tells everybody she meets that daddy has gone to live somewhere else, which is hard for me, but at least I have her. Seeing your daughter for 11 hours a week does not make you a great father.....

I hate him. I really do.

If its any consolation I feel exactly the same tonight without the hate part. I feel really bloody lost & sad too

Me too. (with the hate part, although actually he's more like a stranger that I've taken a sudden dislike to)

Only consolation is that we rarely did anything nice to remember... is that a good thing?!

I'm sorry we have to go through all this shit... What goes around comes around, just remember that. They will get it back tenfold one day... ..

I've just spent an hour on the phone to my mum who rang to see how i got on today. I'm feeling a bit better now.

I've got a lot to be thankful for. Tomorrow is the funeral of the 21 year old lad who died suddenly a couple of weeks ago. I saw his sister today and she looked terrible. I feel so sorry for them. My problems are nothing compared to theirs.

That's something I said to DS1 earlier actually. I was on the brink of splitting with H last year, had told him not to come home at the weekend as he was working away and had been a total wanker the previous weekend (didn't say wanker to DS tho!).

Then I heard that DS2's friend (aged 6) had lost his dad to a brain tumour that week and I thought, this puts my problems in perspective. Its not fair to put the DCs through all this, we should try again to sort it out.

I said to DS earlier, things may be difficult for us, but no-one has died, we're all healthy and we have each other. That's a lot to be thankful for.

So STBXH text today as usual, but said I have to go to London, so wont be back in time today, can I see DD tomorrow after 1pm. I text back no shes at my mums from 12pm so I can work. So then he said I could see her from 9.30 to 10.45am (wow, whooppee doo, a whole 1.25 hours!!). so I text back fine.

Then I had second thoughts and text him back and said you can have her all day from 9.30am til 6.30pm as I wont be home from work til then and he text back ok, thats great, thanks.

(He has got dentist at 9.00 am, then work locally at 11am, but he can take DD with him as its only for an hour).

I feel like I have been nice to him by saying he can have her all day and it does help me work and saves my mum having her two days running.

But now i feel bad in myself because Ive been nice to him and I dont want to, if that makes sense? although the texts were all brief and to the point with no niceties, I feel like Ive done him a favour and I dont want to!

Contrary I know?!

Well it's not a favour for him, it's for DD & to give your mum a break. Think of it that way!

You haven't done him a favour.

Your dd isn't a toy that you can choose to share or not; nor is she your exclusive possession.

In facilitating her regular/frequent contact with her df, you're acting in her best interests by ensuring that her needs are of paramount importance and take precedence over your disgruntled feelngs towards him.

I know you are right. It is all about DD not me and thats why I did it. She is very excited at the thought of seeing him tomorrow, but confused as I told her this morning that Sunday was 4 more sleeps away and now she is seeing him tomorrow! But she is happy so thats the main thing.

She drew me a picture tonight to make me happy. She said if I draw you these lovely pictures does it make you not sad any more and you wont cry now :-( made me want to cry........

I just felt like I had been nice to him and didnt like the feeling any more! lol.

It is an extra day as he usually only has her for 2 hours on a Wednesday after preschool if he can make it (his choice to bring her back at 5.30pm, not mine).

So he took DD all day which allowed me to do all the housework this morning and work this afternoon. She has had fun and been to his place and the park.

I saw a friend this morning who I haven't seen for a few weeks and she commented on how much stronger I am now and how well I am dealing with all of this. Then the lady from the children's centre rang who I haven't spoken to for a month and after chatting for a while she said the same. She remInded me again that I did everything I could, and can hold my head up high and that I am a good person who deserves better.

I've got my second counselling session tomorrow, let's see what she comes out with....

Grrr! Stop me texting H back and telling him to fuck off prick. Why is he so stupid? Why oh why can't he just disappear into a large black hole and never come out!

Just sent a text at 10pm saying that when he had DD today he took her to the park which is next to toddlers snd they invited her in for fruit and so he went in with her! Have texted my closest friends and none of them were there today so don't know what happened.

Why text me at this tIme of night to tell me something so fucking pointless! It's really bad timing as I was just sat here crying my eyes out ! (really shouldnt have read that thread 10 reasons why you love your husband)

So much for being strong ...... Aargh!!!!!!!!!

It isn't about what she comes out with... it's about what you come out with and the insights you gain from examining your innermost thoughts and beliefs in no-holds barred confessional of a counselling session.

After the report of your first session, it seemed to me that you were looking to the counsellor to validate you by giving her unconditional approval of the way in which you've dealt with the breakdown of your marriage, and that you took exception to anything she said that you perceived as criticism of your actions/behaviour.

This time I hope you'll listen with more than your ears so that you can hear whether what you say resonates with your inner beliefs or whether there's the odd dud note that means you need to take a closer look at either your words or your beliefs, or both.

If you regard counselling as a talking shop where you get patted on the head for having done/said everything right, you'll be in danger of impeding your personal growth.

Use friends/relatives/total strangers to give you any approval you crave and use your counselling sessions to explore those thoughts and beliefs that you may be reluctant to voice in public.

He's just trying to get a response. Think of it as a child whining for attention. Totally pointless, and probably rather bored. Let him send pointless texts, and enjoy the fact you can delete every single one of them while he's on his own, and you and your daughter are tucked up in bed , relaxed and happy.

Izzy, I don't want her approval but also I don't want her disapproval of my decision to divorce which is what she did- why on wary are you doing that, you are trying to punish him, what if he changes his mind, you have backed him into a corner-

And when I said that OW was mentioned on petition she said- so now you are affecting their life too, what do you think that will do to them and their marriage-

She made me feel bad for saying that the contact was wrong and putting that on the petition and she made me feel bad for divorcing him. I understand that she needs to challenge my controlling behaviour and that I made my H feel bad when I didn't want him to go to watch football. Yes I know I must have upset him by not letting him do what he wanted but i really didn't expect him to leave me because I said no!

I wanted counselling to stop me feeling like a terrible person because if everything he wrote in his letter about why he had to leave me. So far the counsellor seems to agree with him....

I doubt that your counsellor was quite as intentionally adversarial as you're claiming her to have been, but that's by the by.

You've said I wanted counselling to stop me feeling like a terrible person because of everything he wrote in his letter about why he had to leave me.

If you're saying that one letter from a lying cheating deceiving twat of an h, who will inevitably seek to make you out as the villain of the piece to minimise his own failings, has had the power to make you feel 'like a terrible person' you need to look at why it's caused you to feel this way.

Is it because you believe that there's some truth to the content of this letter? Is it because you doubt yourself and/or have some regret about the actions you have taken, or the way you've behaved, since he left?
Does he have valid cause to accuse you of being controlling?

Unless you can say a resounding 'no' to the above questions, I would encourage you to explore these issues in some depth now so that you don't embark on any future relationship(s) handicapped by an erroneous notion that you are a 'controlling' woman - others may seek to label us but we can choose not wear their tags.

What I'm hoping to make you aware of is that in order to move on with confidence, you need to be confident that you've taken the most appropriate action for the you that you are at this period in your life.

Once you've reached this accomodation with yourself, and are at peace with your actions, you will be less likely to revist the past or allow it to mar your present/future with thoughts of regret or 'if onlys' at what might have been if you'd taken a different tack.

It's understandable that you've been in bits mentally. He caused the bottom to drop out of your world. You've been emotionally fragmented; wrung out and hung out to dry by the impact of his behaviour, and you shouldn't lose of sight of the fact that his actions have caused your reactions.

Nor should you discount the possibility that in, order to exorcise any ghosts that may haunt you in the future, it may be necessary for your counsellor to play devil's advocate on occasion in order to help you become all that you can be.

Some may take the view that you've rushed to divorce; I take the view that you if you hadn't acted when you did, you'd have run the risk of him petitioning to divorce you with attendant legal fees had you felt compelled to contest his version of events - and, given that his account would be unlikely to tally with yours, I suspect that your present relatively modest lawyer's bill had the potential to quadruple and more.

Practial expediency can, of necessity, take precedence over emotional concerns. It's a measure of our inner strength, our purpose of mind, that we recognise this salient fact and act accordingly.

There's no need for you to look to others for validation when you're more than capable of validating yourself, skye.

As for that other thread, a very large goes to the first to respond with 'he fell under a bus and spared me a stretch in Holloway'

Thanks izzy. Session much more productive today. She understands why I am divorcing him and agrees. We talked about a lot today and we are going to talk about stuff next time to stop me taking baggage into future relationships. She is a lovely person and I got on well with her today and she made me realise that what happened isn't my fault.

I'm encouraged to learn your session went well and I hope you will be able to offload a lot of unnecessary excess baggage and leave it in the left luggage locker of future counselling sessions.

I also hope you come to the realisation that there's little to be gained from you embarking on a mission of 'making friends and influencing' those you talk to about your marital breakdown.

Some folk who've been where you are now will 'get it'; empathetic souls will 'get it', and those who don't 'get it' will get it when/if it happens to them.

That being the case, there's no reason and no need for you to be hypersensitive to what you may perceive as criticism of decisions you've made/are making in relation to your marriage, or to become hostile towards those who may attempt to advocate for him.

Again in relation to the other thread which, IMO, is more suited to 'Chat' than this board, I am giving serious consideration to changing my name and claiming my reward of a very large

In fact, by way of a pre-emptive strike I intend to award myself a as soon as I've clicked 'post message'. Watch that space

I put a quick post on earlier but forgot to say that the counsellor said that last time she felt that she reacted in that way as if it was her daughter she was dealing with and gave motherly advice not to rush into divorce rather than professional detachment. She understood today that I am divorcing him for financial security and to get it all over with now rather than wait around for years for him to get round to it. I made her see that there was no chance of reconciliation and that it is not helping me for her to tell me that we could still work things out. She could see that I did everything I could to repair the marriage but he had already emotionally detached from me.

We discussed my need to be in control of my life and that he is the sort of person who is drawn to somebody strong who will look after him and organise him but at some point he started to resent that.

She also warned me that when he is living on his own and the reality of his new lonely life hits him, or if the contact with OW comes to an end, that he may well get in touch and suddenly decide that he does love me after all....

She asked if I was happy with her and i said that I was happy with her , I did feel that in the first session she didn't understand that my marriage is over but she does now and we are now working together on from there.

Next week we are going to look at the eight steps of a relationship. I think we are going to get on fine now.

That sounds really encouraging, and she sounds as if she has really reflected what she said last week, which is great for her as a trainee counsellor. It does sound far more productive this week.

that sounds really encouraging Skye, good work.

x-post!

Another shit Saturday night on my own . Was meant to be going to a local duck race but my friend cancelled on me and I don't want to go on my own.. Was then going to go round another friend's with a bottle of wine and DD but she cancelled on me too . Can't go out as have to look after DD.

Will try and find a decent film to watch and drink the bottle of wine on my own . At least I've got something planned for next weekend... Another boring day ahead of me tomorrow too. I have to get some work done! Or I won't have any money!

Yeah same here honey plus all 4 of my kids are elsewhere! We will gradually find things to make us feel happy again honey

I spent my first kid-free night last week with my head in the loo being ill!

Hoping this one will be a better night - all 3 going to dad's tomorrow night and I'm going for tapas with a lovely mate - only one of the DCs wants to stay for a second night on Monday and DS2 doesn't really want to go at all, as he says he's a bit tired and would rather have a normal day at home

I do feel secretly a bit pleased that they're not all totally excited about going even after only a week (DD who's 5 said that one night was enough as she'd miss me too much , but then I feel guilty for them and for H - I know I should be happy when they all get to spend time together (+ if his tiny house is causing an issue, he'll want a bigger place soon so I'll get less £!)

Skye - you need to go easy on yourself. Your divorce won't be in six weeks, love, I doubt it'll be six months. I filed for divorce early May last year, and I still have a couple of months to go at least. It takes a long time, the financial stuff is a nightmare. I spent yet another morning at the solicitors yesterday, filing in and signing yet more paperwork. It gets you down, it's a drain and depressing. All the advice I can give you is to see it as you would a business transaction - you spend so much time per week thinking/dealing with it, then you file it away, and forget about it. Otherwise it will drag you down. I have managed to compartmentalise my divorce this way, because I'd have gone mad otherwise. See each development as a step in a long process to a happier life.

The only other thing I can say to help you, from experience, is please go no contact. When I say this, I mean I understand you have to have contact regarding little one, but that's all. My ex would like more contact with me, but I only have the minimum I have to with him, and it is only about the kids, and only then when absolutely necessary. He sent me a text message on my birthday, I ignored it. I go out if he comes around to see the kids. I don't talk to the kids about him, I listen if they talk about him, but am very detached. It's how I cope.

Focus on yourself, and try and take every day as it comes. I don't think about tomorrow, just today. And it works a treat.

Saffysmum, is there a particular reason you're no contact with him? I feel like that's what I need to be able to deal with this, but stbxh doesn't seem to get it and wants to be all matey with me, like we're still together, just living in different houses! How do you manage no contact without seeming to be a bitch about it? (I know that's what he'll think, or that I'm still too in love with him to move on )

Good advice Saffysmum

Thanks everybody. Halfway through the bottle now Saffysmun , yes I realise now it won't be that quick, solicitor said at last meeting you can get divorced six weeks after nisi filed, but then said at latest meeting it will be a month before it is filed. And of course we have to sort out mortgage and hat ex off deeds before file absolute, but it could all be finalised by Christmas

Although I am strong in a way and getting used to being on my own, I'm still scared of the future, scared of being on my own. I managed to change the hall lightbulb today lol, nearly brained myself when I pulled the glass lampshade off though!

And I boxed up some brand new curtains and bedding that we never used plus spare towels, glasses, pillows etc - and done a note saying this stuff is for your new place when you get it, if you don't want it please take it to one of the many charity shops that are on your doorstep and within easy reach! I just want it all out of my way lol.

I have no contact with STBXH apart from about DD. anything else I ignore. I was still doing his payroll for his one employee , (i gave him all his other accounts stuff weeks ago) but he has a new accountant, so she will do that from now on. He text to say she would be in touch and I just text back businesslike to say I would forward all necessary info to her and from now on we only need contact about DD which is as it should be now we are divorcing.

Doingit, you have to put yourself first. I didn't want my marriage to end, but when my husband of 22 years told me he no longer loved me (after years of being very unhappy), I realised that it was time to separate. He had stopped loving me before I stopped loving him, so I had to play catch up. After I threw him out (because I knew he was seeing someone else, even though he denied it), I filed for divorce because I needed to take control. I also knew that I would only come to terms with the awful rejection, was to have no contact with him. He has always wanted us to remain friends. Well, I think my definition of friends is different to his; because friends don't do what he's done. I think when men say they want to still be friends, they don't; they just want an easy life, they don't want confrontation, they want to paper over the cracks.

I don't care what he thinks about me, going no contact with him. I no longer love him, because having time apart has made me step outside the situation and see it as it is. He's not a nice person. Perhaps he never was. Perhaps I made a lot of excuses for him, and I even enabled his neediness. I certainly stoked that massive ego. If I still had contact with him, the wounds would have never healed.

After what he did, the pain he caused me and the kids - I have to put myself first because then I can focus on being the best mum I can be. And that means having nothing to do with him. I can honestly say if it wasn't for the kids, I would happily never lay eyes on him, or speak to him again.

It worries me that you worry about what your STBX will think of you if you have no contact, it implies that you still care about his opinion of you. All you need to care about is yourself, and keeping strong. X

Doingit - I manage no contact by not seeing him. When I see husbands van go past, I wait for him to turn round and stop then when I hear his door open I open my front door, kiss DD goodbye tell her to have a lovely day and close the door. All her stuff is outside the door waiting. I go the same when she comes back,

If he text me midweek about seeing DD I reply as briefly as I can! YES NO FINE etc. ! And I ignore any texts that aren't about her.

Safftsmum - I could have written your post (apart from being married for 22 years) the rest if it could have written by myself to describe my situation. I'm still working on the not loving him bit though.... But I keep Looking at a picture of him and reminding myself about his big head and his lack of hair and his part denture and his big tummy and telling myself he is pig ugly lol.

skye! I also look at stbxh now and wonder how I used to find him attractive, but actually for a long time, I didn't really. He became ugly to me when I first realised how little I meant to him (probably about 5 years ago). Now he's lost a bit of weight he thinks he's the bees knees, but to me he just looks older and more 'drawn'.

Saffysmum, I do worry what he thinks of me because I know he will judge me as a mum if I don't make every effort to be friendly and lovely for the DCs. He thinks that by pretending its all hunky dory they will have less pain, whereas to me, its just confusing to them if they don't understand what went wrong and why we ended up here.

On Friday DS2 asked if Daddy was home yet, on the way back from school! Its like nothing has really changed (they didn't see much of him, so having him live elsewhere for 10 days hasn't made any difference!!).

H's family keep saying how lovely it will be if we are getting on well enough for me to come to a family party in a few weeks. Initially I thought I could, but now the idea of travelling for 2 hours with him in the car and spending a day playing happy families after what he's done is making me feel really uncomfortable. (I've told them he was emotionally abusive, with examples, but they're glossing over that)

Doingit: Sod his family. Sorry to be blunt, but what they want is to gloss over the pain, and for things to have as little impact as possible. Tough. This isn't about them, it's about their son taking the consequences of his actions. You don't need to do anything at all to make their coping with this any easier. Let him placate them. They may well make excuses for him, let them.

I don't know how old your kids are; mine were all teenagers (youngest 13, eldest 17) when I binned twunt. So it was easy for me to go no contact, because we didn't have to do family things together. It was YS birthday a couple of weeks following the split and he wanted his dad to come to a pre-arranged birthday treat. I just refused, because it would have been very confusing for YS (he took it the hardest at the time), and bloody impossible for me. I didn't give a stuff about how ex felt about missing his son's birthday - that was the price he paid for throwing his family away. We had a lovely family time without him, and his dad took him out the following day for dinner.

Don't worry about how he will judge you as a mum. You can be a friendly, lovely mum to your kids. He has no right to comment on your parenting technique or skills - you're now the main carer, and if anything like me, it's not a role you ever thought you'd be doing on your own, and it's bloody scary. But you will manage and I bet you'll form closer relationships with your kids too - I know I did. Your kids need to see a strong independent woman, who has clear boundaries regarding how much she will take. They will respect this, and you will respect yourself. It will make you stronger, and set them brilliant standards and goals for the future.

Focus on yourself, and only do what you feel comfortable with. Their your kids, you are the main carer, you are their rock and stability. Don't compromise any of that because he might not think well of you. He's not worth worrying about. He threw away the right to have a say in anything when he let you all down.

Saffysmum, very good advice there for Doingit. My H tried to be friendly. When he first walked out he said he would come back and mow the lawn and help do stuff around the house and we could have family days out in a few months :-/ then when he was coming round he had the audacity to say I could be a bit happier to see him as i always looked so miserable! And I tried to be happy to see him in the hope of working things out even though he broke my heart by walking out on us!

Whilst i hoped we could still reconcile he was having tea twice a week and putting DD to bed. When he finally turned on me all of that stopped as I can't spend time with him after the way he just walked out in us. And it was too confusing for DD. now that she sees him drive away she doesn't expect him to be here in the morning. I certainly wouldn't go to a family party with him, (although it is nice that your X's family want you to go ).

We must all do what we feel is right for ourselves and our own family and it's certainly not easy..

Thanks girls. Its just hard knowing where to draw the line for me, everything has been so intermingled for so long that I don't know where I start and he stops. I need to sort out my business arrangements, so I still need him to give me passwords and show me how to transfer the money and download the order info etc. so I suppose I don't want to be totally 'off' with him in case he decides not to help me.

All the old bollocks about how he can come and help if there's a big spider etc - WTF was that about?! We managed when he was away for weeks at a time, or if he was at work. What does he think, the spiders only come out when he's here? I've let him think I need him for too long and I need to show him that I don't.

It is confusing for them Skye. Mine are 5, 7 & 12 so very different levels of understanding about what this all means. The fact that he's stayed away before is quite helpful for them coping but is also probably confusing as they may think this is only temporary too, that staying with him now is just like when we went to visit him before (but without me!).

I can't bear to look at his stupid shiny head and his dopey face when he comes to get them, so I know I'm still so angry with him. I agree that no eye contact is easier, but I don't want him to see me as miserable without him. I just want to feel nothing - maybe that's why I want to pretend it doesn't matter and we're just friends, as that way he wouldn't have any of my anger/emotions.

The other thing that's bothering me is that I'm still living by H's rules and getting annoyed by things like DCs leaving a mess.

DS1 has left a clean flannel on the floor of the shower the last 3 times he's had one, so the first time I picked it up and wrung it out, hung it on the towel rail, the second time the same thing, then today I go in and there's yet another soggy flannel on the floor of the shower and I started to feel like H.

I could feel the anger, 'the disrespect', DS not listening or doing what he's told etc rising up in me. I know its just a flannel, but for so long its been a source of irritation and arguments that its difficult to switch that off. I'm getting wound up about the mess round the house, when before I didn't really care and it was H who got annoyed with them.

Its like I've removed him from the situation but now I'm as bad as he was

Yes I've been told that indifference is what to aim for and I'm working on that. I haven't seen him for at least a month now and dd is so excited to see him that she runs off without noticing that I haven't gone out.

I agree if you need his help with business you need to stay friendly for now. Once you have got e erything you need then cut the contact.

Your kids are similar age to my neighbours three, 4 8 and 12. The 12 year old prefers to spend time with mum and new man, the younger two love to see their daddy they know he lives elsewhere they go there to stay, they miss him and still think he might go home.

My DD says things like " that's when daddy was still here" and talks about how we can all live together in daddy's new house.

I asked her earlier if she was daddy's girl of mummy's girl , an old joke as she always said daddy's girl, today she said " I'm daddy girl at the weekend but I'm mummy's girl in the weekday ...... It shows she is starting to transfer more to me . They were very close previously.

It's probably normal to be like that now as you are the only person there now to pick up the mess etc. I'm very untidy but now it's only me doing everything I find myself making DD pick up all her toys whereas before I wasn't bothered !

"I'm daddy's girl at the weekend but I'm mummy's girl in the weekday " bless her!

Arsehole was late again, 7.15.

Have emailed him about it but an hour later still no response snd I asked him for confirmation. I said that he hasn't replied to previous email about her , that all this is for her benefit, he needs to let me know if he can have her in the holidays, and that come September, on professional advice, she needs to be home at 6pm as she is starting school and cannot start the week tired.

DD said that OW came in the van with them to bring her home tonight.. I asked DD where was her H and she said busy.. Why would she need to come along? Why not stay hOme with her H? A chance to be alone for an hour after my H and DD have been there all day?!

I put more stuff outside for him, some brand new bedding and curtains. Plus some old pillows towels and bedding. I put a note on it saying if you don't want it then take it to one of the many charity shops on your doorstep!

Stupid fuckIng arsehole! I hate him I really really do!

He just replied saying that it's not deliberate she takes long time eating her tea. He said that we ought to speak as DD must wonder why we don't.

The he says he is unavailable for a week in September, Tuesday to Tuesday, so he must be going on holiday?? This is the man who told me that work must come first and that he didn't have the time or mOney to go on holiday! It was one of the reasons why we now wanted different things out of life!! Because I like holidays and he doesn't ?! Fucking knobhead.! I'm so angry!

I couldn't help myself I emailed him back saying the above without the swearing, and also that I have no desire to speak to him as I despise him as a person and that I will never ever forgive him for walking out on his daughter.

Aw sweetie, its so hard to stay detached isn't it. You can't remain calm and aloof with someone who has so royally fucked you over.

My H has also booked 2 weeks hols this summer, despite never wanting family holidays before and has said he will try and book some weekends off so the DCs can stay longer with him (he could never do this when we were together!).

Its like they just want to prove that every bad word we said about them was a lie - but you know its not. He's twisting things so that he looks like the good guy, even down to wanting to talk nicely to each other, just so you don't give the game away that you don't like him.... grrrrrr! What a tosser!

I know. I just rang my mum and said to her, his email is all, I want to be reasonable and we need to talk for DD's sake and Im happy to communicate with you, it all makes him look like Mr Nice Guy! He said we need to work together for DD's sake! I said that he chose to walk out on her and I am now bringing her up alone as he chose to be a part time dad! He said his solicitor has told him that he has equal rights over DD.

I can only presume that he is going on holiday with OW and her H, her mum and dad and her best friend..... as that is the group that was going away together and I even joked with him after he left , that he wouldnt be going now would he? and he laughed and said dont be silly.

He stated it was one of the reasons that we wanted different things out of life, that I was obsessed with holidays (we went on 2 cheap caravan breaks a year). He said that he needed to concentrate on his business, that he couldnt afford a holiday! He said that he cant commit to having DD in the summer holidays due to his work. I said in my email back that I hoped that he would want to spend time with DD during the 6 weeks holidays and that if he can take time off to holiday with his friends, then he can take time off to spend with DD! I said that my work needs to be arranged in advance and that once I have made childcare arrangements, then he will not be able to see her at short notice if he just happens to be available.

and now he is going away for a week, must be abroad, if its Tuesday to Tuesday. What about his flat hunting? What about the deposit/rent for that? He is fucking deluded, living in cloud cuckoo land.

I hope he wakes up and falls out the fucking cloud soon, i really do. I would have sat and cried over this a few weeks ago, now it just makes me mad to think of everything he said and then he does this! Just more proof to me that most of what he said was lies and excuses just to get away!

I told him in the email that I am yet to come across one person who thinks that what he has done is acceptable!

Apologies for all the swearing but I am mad!

So much for detaching, I blew that big time by replying to the stupid fucking email, but I couldnt help it!

Yeah you & me too tonight! We must detach from these twunts. I was all calm this afternoon & now my nerves are frazzled & can't sleep!

I feel all AARRGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! Just been on the phone to my mum for an hour ranting about what a twunt he is!

At least I can see I have moved on!! Its not upsetting me like it would have a few weeks ago! Its another nail in the coffin of loving him! Another push to move on and realise what a twunt he is and how I am sooooo much better off without him!

You could have easily helped it by replying to his email and NOT sending it.

Yet again you've played into his hands by giving him and the ow more to bond over - he'll be sobbing on her shoulder about how unreasonable you are, she'll be telling him he made the right decision in leaving you, and so the dance goes on.

I am yet to come across one person who thinks that what he has done is acceptable You've got to stop telling all and sundry what he's done with a view to getting them on your 'side'.

As you've observed and made reference to, your dd has been needlessly affected by hearing you pour scorn and opprobrium on her df and, tempting as it may be to bend the ears of others, for her sake you need to be selective about who you make privy to your private affairs - and, more importantly, when you confide in them.

FWIW he didn't leave dd - he left you and if he believes that others are judging him unfairly he may seek to redeem himself by seeking shared custody of dd which, apart from any other consideration, may seriously impact on financial issues such as child support.

It seems to me that if anyone's deluded about him getting his own flat it's you. He's got a cosy billet with his best mate and the ow; why should he want to change that arrangement?

You may think I'm being unduly harsh but you need to hear it, skye. Being incommunicado with the exception of contact arrangments for dd is your biggest weapon. Don't give the ow the satisfaction of being able to apply healing salve to the poor diddums wounds after you've given him a kicking.

And if his 'sponsorship' of the ow's netball team involves him donating good money to watch her prance around in a short skirt take a screenshot of the relevant fb page.

Been lurking again, I've said before, and through bitter experience, best to have no expectations him regarding your DD. He clearly loves her, and wants to spend time with her, but when it suits him.

Don't expect him to move into his own place/do overnights/take holidays etc. If he does good. If not, you'll be fine, and your DD won't know any difference.

I have calmed down this morning and accepted that it just proves what a lying twunt he is, using a raft of excuses to leave, most of which weren't true. He really threw it at me that I was obsessed with holidays a s he didn't want to go as the business had to come first.

What does annoy me though is that he is saying he can't commit to seeing DD in the holidays due to work but he can take a week off with them. Plus he's got no money... So no doubt it's all gone on the credit card. Yet another reason why I need to get him off the deeds to my house.... He used to laugh at how they go on holiday with her friend all the time.. Now he is joining their sad little group. We could never afford to go abroad but of course he can do what he wants now he is single..

If he wants to cry on OW shoulder good luck to him. If anything further develops there it will end in tears big time so let them carry on... Her H is so going to know everythIng once my finances are sorted, that I am sure of now!

Completely agree with Izzy. Izzy's post may sound tough but it is extremely pertinent and should make you stop and think.

It's not at all surprising that you feel hurt, Skye, of course you would - anybody would - after what you've been through. But it's over. Your marriage is done and you're taking steps to bring it to a formal close. That is the end of YOUR relationship with a man who wasn't worthy of you. He is, however, from what you've posted - a decent father. He is committed to his daughter and you would be unkind - and very short-sighted - to do or say anything to put that in jeopardy. Please don't. Rant away here or anywhere safe out of possible earshot or consequence to your daughter. She does not need to hear or see you give way and it's your responsibility as a parent to make sure that she doesn't see/hear that. She needs to feel secure.

I can see that you're having difficulty detaching still... you can't understand why OW has 'the penny and the bun' and you think it's unfair that she has two adoring men paying attention to her. You're right, it is unfair but what she has is 1 x cheater and 1 x cuckold and more than that you do not know. Sorry to rub salt but it's also none of your business anymore what your ex husband does.

You are going to feel so much better off without this man in your life but of course it doesn't feel like that right now. You want to lash out and hurt him as he has hurt you but that would ultimately hurt you and make him even more protective. I imagine you don't want that.

Your last sentence reveals your pain but it sounds vengeful and nothing to do with what is right. Be graceful and get a level of composure to enable you to deal with your ex husband (only), regarding your DD. The other two people in this merry dance mean nothing to you and you to them.

It's you and your daughter now, all the way - and she and her father now, all the way. Between the two of you, you can give her a happy, stable life - or you could make her miserable and anxious. If you carry on with what you've posted you've done and said, it will most likely be the latter and that would be a great shame.

He just makes me sick though. I wasn't expecting him to take DD on Holiday due to cost and the fact that he won't take Time off work. In the same email he says I can't commit to seeing her in the summer holidays due to my work oh and I won't be available to see her between these dates as I'm away!

Yet he makes out he is a wonderful dad and would see her at every opportunity but I won't let him. That is not the case, his work always comes first.

He said she is late back because of her tea so I said he needs to give her tea earlier! This is what he is like, not organised . I said she needs to be back at 6pm from September but he can pick her up earlier if he wants to.

I seriuosly don't give a shit if he is shagging her, I am so far past that now but it annoys me how he says one thing and dies another regarding holidays. And is no doubt building up debt in the meantime. That could affect me.

I think Skye's frustration comes from the sudden change she's seen in H since he left, something I'm also dealing with and its one of the most hurtful things, isn't it Skye?

For him to be able to suddenly love holidays when they're with someone else means that the only reason he didn't want to go on a holiday was because it was with me.

When it was the holiday that was the problem, it was easy to paint him as the miserable workaholic whose priorities were all wrong. Once that is taken out of the equation it becomes about me/skye feeling that we were not lovable enough for him to want to spend time with us, which is a very different emotion to have to deal with and not so easy to get past.

Skye... He is entitled to a holiday, we all are. To plan a holiday, you need to take a 'break' from work if you're going away. To see a child who is fairly local, takes a little less planning. It doesn't mean that he doesn't want to see her. From what you've posted, he's been fairly regular with seeing your DD and she seems to be enjoying this and rallying well. Some children take much longer to settle. You're doing a great job with that - please just take care not to undo all that great work.

You say that he brings her back late; he needs to change that. From what you've posted, it's down to being disorganised rather than trying to control the situation or being malicious. I think you should legitimately have a conversation with him, if you can, just saying, "Look, DD needs to be home by X-o'clock. Can you please make sure that she's home by then for her sake". There's nothing in that for him to find fault with and he'll need to work his activity plan backwards to determine what time to pick her up in order to bring her home on time.

Press on with your financial planning with your solicitor and make no comments on anything to do with that with your ex-husband. It will all be sorted soon enough and he will be accountable; it would not be your (or your DD's) interests to stir him up into reckless spending to get back at you.

Trust your solicitor, your counsellor, any other professional you're seeing - and trust yourself that you've done your best and you can now let go and let the pieces of the puzzle be completed by those who are doing that for you.

You can do this, Skye, it's incredibly hard not to want to know what's going on, especially in a long marriage and a short space of time since the split, but you're going to be fine, you really will. Just do nothing to wind yourself up and don't allow others to inject their own 'drama' into your life either. None of it matters now, only the resolution, which is on its way.

yy Doingit, it's a right 'smack in the face' isn't it?

It's all still so raw and painful and whilst he's had time to hatch the escape and sidled into a new life with OW/her husband, Skye has had to regroup following a huge bombshell. Not at all fair.

We all just need to remember that when somebody we thought cared about us makes it obvious that they don't/didn't, we mustn't internalise it, it's nothing to do with our worth but everything to do with their own lacking worth as a person.

He sat in my living room and he said we want different things out of life. I said like what and he said you are obsessed with holidays you are always talking about going on holiday and I need to concentrate on my business I can't afford to go on holiday. I said I'm not obsessed its DD last chance for a holiday in school term before starting school in September. We cancelled a holiday to Jersey as he didn't want to go on holiday.....

I said everybody needs at least one weeks holiday a year. He disagreed and said that plenty of people don't go on holiday and he would prefer not to go. All we could afford was a caravan holiday snd I was quite happy with that. He was the one who said he didnt want to go on holiday he wanted to work! He was adamant that he couldn't go on holiday!

So to find out he is going abroad for a week is pretty sickening as it goes against what he said to me! Plus he can't find the time to have DD one day a week due to work! And it's all going on the credit card as he had no money. It's back to his old mentality if i want it so I'll have it whereas we saved for stuff rather than get in debt.

I think you (& I) have to accept that whatever he said when he was with you should be taken with a pinch of salt. He made his excuses based on how he felt at the time and now that he's having his mid-life crisis moved on, the way he feels about everything is probably different, and bears no resemblance to the thoughts and actions of the man you lived with.

Doingit, yes he is definitely a different person now and I have to think that it's all lies what he said but it's just so so galling. Like you say they become a different person . I now see him as a chameleon , he turned into what he thought I wanted and now he's living with them he is living their life and copying her H's clothes and doing what they do.

He made me seem unreasonable for wanting to go on holiday and now I'm getting comments like everybody is entitled to a holiday ! That was my whole point to him which he denied!

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with the ones saying that he walked out on you and not your daughter. Seeing a child one day a week (oh, and a couple of hours after school one day if you're lucky) is not parenting in my opinion, and doesn't make you 'a decent father'.

Why is it that the man gets to walk away and it is expected that the woman is left holding the baby? If the situation was reversed and you were seeing your daughter one or day a week (with no overnights) and going off on holiday without her, I bet you nobody would be saying 'that skye seems like a pretty decent mother'

I'm not surprised you're feeling angry and cheated.

'That skye is a pretty decent mother, and she only walked out on her husband, not her child' Yeeah, right!

Well said, MyChild. A man who leaves the family home HAS left the DCs as well as the mum. While he may still maintain a relationship with the DC, its not like the relationship that dads who live with their DCs have - its a totally different thing, sometimes in a good way, sometimes not so much.

Similarly when a man hurts the mother of his children and makes her feel worthless and unloved or cheats on her, he is not a 'great dad' as a great dad would make sure that the mother of his children is happy and respected.

I agree girls. My DD certainly feels that she has been "left" too. She screamed for daddy for 4 hours after he dropped her off last night. Seeing him once a week or fortnight to spend hours in the car driving around the county to pick up his other DD an hour away & then back to the ILs where he's run back to his mummy staying at the moment. Crap he hasn't left her!!

Actually I think the twunt exH has his priorities all skewed when he is prioritising a holiday over sorting out a flat to he can properly co-parent alongside Skye, or have overnight access at the least. He is also abdicating responsibility during the summer holidays and I would be very annoyed that he cannot take holidays to help look after his child, but can to go away on a jolly with the OW, her husband, and their friends and family.

"He said we need to work together for DD's sake! I said that he chose to walk out on her and I am now bringing her up alone as he chose to be a part time dad! He said his solicitor has told him that he has equal rights over DD."

I absolutely hate when people talk about their rights over children, as though they are some sort of possession. What about his fecking responsibilities too? At the moment he is no more than a McDonalds Daddy, seeing his child one day a weekend and, quite often, one day a week for a few hours and, yet, he seems happy with this. Decent father, really? I think his actions, or inaction, say otherwise, to be honest. He seems to be quite happy living the single life with the OW and her DH.

Skye, I think it may be worth considering mediation with a view to arranging access on a more documented footing, so to speak. He's making the sounds that he's doing the best he can, whereas his actions contradict this, and an impartial ear may be helpful here.

Skye - you have done a phenomenal job of detaching over the last few weeks and are so much stronger.

So you blew your top - you are human. I can understand your anger and frustration. Just put it down to experience and try your utmost (as you have been doing) to stay detached and keep contact down to an absolute minimum. You know that anyway.

I agree with others that you have to also work on being selective with who you tell what and be careful what you say in front of dd. I am not sure asking her if she was a daddy's girl or mummy's girl was a great idea given the situation - four years old is not too young to feel guilt/confusion and to protect your parents from your feelings. She knows only too well that mummy and daddy are not friends anymore and questions like this could be painful and worrying for her.

Stay strong x

Thanks for all the above replies. Have just been on the phone to my friend who is 2 years into her divorce and she understands exactly how I feel about everything.

Yes, IMO he did walk out on daughter. We come as a package, he cant walk out on me without walking out on her. If he really loved her he would have talked to me rather than just walk out. He now sees her for around 11 hours a week, when he used to see her for a few hours every day and all weekend. Also, if he loved her and wants to see her as much as he says, he would jump at the chance to have her for a couple of days in the 6 weeks holidays. He would also be trying to find somewhere to live so that he can have her overnight. Its coming up for 3 months now since he moved in with his friends, surely long enough to find somewhere? He could move to the town halfway between us and them and be right on the link road that joins the motorway for work, but he is prioritising his want to live near them over his want to see his daughter.

Proud - I should have thought before I said that to my DD about being mummys or daddys girl. Its something we have always said to her, in a joking way, but of course while it was a bit of fun when we were all together, I realise that I shouldnt say it again now that he no longer lives here. When she gave me the answer I said, oh thats the right answer, we both love you lots.

When she came back yesterday she said I missed you today Mummy and I said ok, but you dont need to worry about me, the important thing is that you have a nice day with daddy. mummy does miss you but mummy is happy and has had a good day.

I have never once mentioned my "rights" to him, I havent even asked the solicitor what my rights are or what his rights are, it hasnt occurred to me! he brought that up as a threat to me, because I said if we cant sort access between us, then we will have to go through the court which i dont want...... As far as I am concerned, I am bringing my daughter up alone, I have to make the day to day decisions. He never texts to ask after her, he never asks how she is getting on at preschool, he never asks anything. I cant wait until she is old enough for a mobile phone, then he can pay for it and she can talk to him whenever she wants.

When she came back yesterday she said I missed you today Mummy and I said ok, but you dont need to worry about me, the important thing is that you have a nice day with daddy. mummy does miss you but mummy is happy and has had a good day

Well you handled that perfectly . You are doing a great job, despite all the difficulties, pain and frustration you are going through x

I've calmed down now , I've talked to a couple of good friends who have been there from the start and they both said that it just proves that he lied. It proves that whatever reasons he came up with and I fixed them, he just came up with more. It was all just excuses and I was never going to win.

I am still annoyed though that he can make time for a holiday with them but not to see his daughter a bit extra. I will go on and arrange my summer and my childcare and if he can't see her be ause SHE is busy then so be it.

His loss is my gain. I intend to take her away for half term too, so she will remember the holidays with me and have none with him!

so its nearly 2pm and I havent heard from him so assume he cant make it today. Ive got plans tomorrow and Friday, visiting friends with children, that my DD knows and is excited about seeing.

So if he asks to see her AIBU to say he cant because I have plans that cant be changed? I dont want to seem awkward, but he if cant commit to every Wednesday, that I have to carry on with my life and my plans dont I?

Thinking about it, he could see her tomorrow afternoon as the friend I am visiting lives just up the road from him, and Im meeting her at 12pm, so he could collect her from there in the afternoon at say 3pm........ I just hope that DD doesnt recognise the road or she will want to go visit him! I also hope I dont bump into him, but I havent visited this friend for over 3 months now due to where she lives and am not going to put it off any longer.

Coz the whole point is, he only texts if he can see her, and I cant sit around waiting for him to be available!

Just make your plans Skye, if it fits in with you for him to see her tomorrow or the next day, fair enough, if not then he'll have to wait until the next time. Your DD enjoys her time with him, so its not worth punishing her by putting him off with no valid reason, but if she's already busy, she won't notice what day it is and you can't sit around waiting for him to be available instead of getting on with your life.

stupid twunt texted at 3pm to say he would pick her up from school today. She comes out at 3.15, so he must be on his way or in the area to text so late... GGRR!! TWUNT!!

and breathe..... I did something positive today, I emailed details of my parents income etc to my financial advisor so that he can see if one of them can come on my mortgage or be guarantor. I also rang my old boss to get some tax advice about them coming on the mortgage.

I still have to finish the list of living expenses for my form E though! better get on with that and off MN

Grrrrr for you hun. x

skye - you're doing well. My kids always said that twunt left us all, and he did. After I threw him out, he texted the kids to say, "I'll always be here for you". One of my four then responded with, 'but you're not, are you...you've left'. And that is it in a nutshell isn't it? You have kids with these men, and you're a package, so for them to 'leave us and not the kids' is a joke.

Regarding the holiday stuff - I sympathise: twunt and us had one family holiday abroad in 22 years. I instigated, booked and paid for this (not that it matters, but I did, because I thought we all deserved a couple of weeks in Malta). The year before we split up, we had booked a family holiday in Greece, but he cancelled this six weeks before (because he couldn't handle the pressure - huh!). Since he left 14 months ago, he's had four foreign holidays, with Lady Twunt. I rest my case.

It really pisses me off that he used holidays as a reason why we are not compatible, makes me feel bad for wanting to go on holiday, even had me thinking that if we got back together I'd go on my own or not have a holiday, anything to make him stay!!!

What a total hypocrite he is to now go abroad with his friends when he told me we couldn't even afford a caravan park holiday! I never cared where we went, it was about spending time together as a family...

He sat there all stressed and shouting that he needed to concentrate on his business!! It's yet one more lie, one more about face, no doubt influenced by OW...

I hope to god it all goes tits up at done point and she gets fed up with his puppy dog devotion and bins him! With no friends I don't know what will happen to him..,.

Oh FFS - it's just all bullshit!
Move on & pity him Skye!

Actually I think it's particularly galling because you have been prepared to be flexible about her seeing him on a Wednesday, instead of insisting it was a regular thing "because of his [all-encompassing, all-important] business", which he assured you was the main thing in his life and he couldn't turn work down and yadda yadda. But now it turns out he can turn it down, just not for his precious dd

I would be bloody furious as well about his casual assumption that he could give you 15 mins' notice of his intention to pick her up from school. Like you had not (at least) already interrupted your work day to get ready to fetch her, if not actually already left. He can't literally have known 15 mins before the end of school, he just couldn't be arsed to be thoughtful (or mature).

But you have to stop angry-emailing him, skye. You're still giving him your power. For his holiday you could have deliberately misunderstood and said "I'm sorry dd won't be available to go with you as term starts on [x date]" - why on earth would he be planning to go away without her? This newly-discovered desire to have holidays would surely be something he wanted to share with his daughter?

As to the speaking, I would just have said "simple, neutral statements are the best thing for dd in my opinion. We aren't friends, we need to be aiming for a courteous co-parenting relationship. For the avoidance of doubt, this includes sticking to agreed handover times; if dd needs extra time to eat her tea I suggest starting earlier".

And I would not add, although I would definitely want to, YOU COMPLETE ARSE.

Dd came back tonight saying that she is going to sandcastle competition on Sunday. She thinks that she is going to build one and go for a paddle in the sea. He's an idiot to tell her that in case they don't go! I never tell her anything until the day it happens, I thought that was a given with kids ! Oh well it's him that will have to deal with the fallout but I feel sorry for DD if they dont go.

I've started to arrange my summer childcare, holiday club, swap days with friends etc. Term ends in 2 weeks.... He can go whistle if he wants her once I've arranged everything. He had his chance

I've been dealing with that tonight too Skye, the furthest he's managed to plan so far is the middle of next week, despite having had his July roster for the past 4 weeks (although half of it has since been changed - whether by him or someone else I don't know.)

He has now offered to have them all day Sunday and Tuesday/Weds evening. Last week that would have brought me out in a cold sweat but this week I just said "ok all of those" as I know that the more he offers to do to look like a great dad, the more stressed he will become. The DCs will be glad they get lots of time with him, I'll get lots of free time and he'll be run ragged trying to do it all. Silly bastard.

I'm just a bit conscious that he will use these nights as a way to pay me less maintenance. At the moment its all very amicable, but when the shit hits the fan, as it will do, he will be able to pretend he's been Mr Hands-on dad throughout.

Yes I think he could reduce maintenance for every night he has them if it's more than 1 night a week on average? But don't tell him that, lol.

That's the trouble, I don't want to point it out in case he doesn't know that, but at the same time, if he already knows and is using this as a way to reduce what he will pay in future I wouldn't be so accommodating.

But I don't want it to become some game with the DCs as pawns. They should stay with him as often as he/they want, not for the optimum number of nights to maximise my money and my free time! That's just mean.

Yes. This us why we need definite access arrangements. Like you say it's not about our free time or maintenance, it's about DC seeing their dads for quality time.

When my H gets in his own place I'm going to suggest Avery other weekend to stay over or every third weekend, plus every Sunday. I would like to have some Sundays with her too so every other weekend would be good but I think it would kill her not to see him for a fortnight

In my divorce papers I have said some weekends (not every). You do not want to get into a situation where you are in trouble if you want to do something with her at the weekend. It's galling that they are only ever going to get the 'good time' - we're the ones left with sad angry children.

I have emailed him today as DD has been invited to a joint birthday party on a Sunday again, so I just explained that I don't want her to miss out on these things and he can have her Saturday instead. I asked him to confirm he received the email and he hasn't. Twunt.

I came home to a message on phone reminding him to attend his contact lens appointment on Saturday..... He would never consider lenses as he said he couldn't put anything in his eyes. But of course OW and her H both wear contact lenses so he was bound to do that next, lol.

He's such a pathetic loser!

Sky why can't he take her to the party?
It's all part of being a parent

Because he won't. These are my friends, he said when he left that he had no friends here and unfriended everybidy on Facebook and then moved 20 miles away.

Its usually just the mums who go to these parties and He doesn't feel comfortable with my friends as they all know how he treated me and mist if them blank him if he picks her up ftom school, so he won't take her to any parties. I don't want her to miss out on them. Plus it's social for me too.

Plus he gets to spend the whole day with her if we swap, instead of her being at a party half the day.

It feels like you're still enabling him, skye. Not to mention making his decisions for him (although I fully appreciate you want the right outcome for dd).

I'd be tempted to say: dd has been invited to such-and-such party. She wishes to attend. As it is on your day of the week, do you want to take her, or would you rather swap days?

Put the decision on him whilst making it clear the end result is that dd goes to her party.

Yes I agree Tribpot. It's all in the wording.

I just know he won't take her because of how he is in social situations. and I really don't want her to miss out on years of parties just because he walked out on her.

I appreciate in time that if he had her every other weekend then it would be difficult to swap so I would expect him to take her then if it fell on one of his days. I know he won't want to though. But as she gets older she can ask him herself.

I know of friends kids who miss out on everything when they are with their dad and I think it's really sad

Totally understand, skye. But he has to take the responsibility for the decision. I suspect he will probably say 'I'll take the swap' and there you are, no harm done. If he says he will take her and then he doesn't ... well, one party won't harm but you've then got the evidence to say that in future you'll need to specify a re-arrangement on the party day and that you'll be expecting to him to agree to that in writing when the time comes.

No-one's doubting that he won't actually take her. But you've played into his hands by taking the decision off him - he will throw this back at you at some point. He's meant to rearrange his busy schedule around your social commitments [is how it will be characterised] but he's chastised for going on holiday with weeks of notice provided.

Don't let the tosspot get to you; don't deal with him from a place of emotion. And tell him to tell the bloody optician to call him at his house not yours!

The issue with the holiday is because he used it as one of many reasons as to why we wAnted different things out of life and why he had to leave me! I wanted holidays and he couldn't possibly leave his business to go on holiday! I wouldn't give a toss otherwise but to throw it at me as a reason for leaving then go abroad with his friends is unforgivable. Notice has got nothing to do with it. Plus he said he can't take time off to be with DD ! But can take time off for his friends.

He is a complete hypocrite, he made me feel so bad for wanting to go on holiday! And then does this.

He is a total bastard. I need to discuss this with my counsellor tomorrow to get it out of my head and let it go.

'Tis moi, your harshest critic again, skye.

I'm sorry to say that your friends sound as extreme determined to be as uncivil to him as you do.

This may be understandable while your wounds are raw but, as it will not be conducive to your dd's sense of wellbeing to see her df being blanked or otherwise treated with hostility by her friends' dms/dps when he picks her up from school or is required to drop her off at their homes/parties, I trust you'll ask your pals to amend their behaviour towards him accordingly.

It goes without saying that your dd is not a commodity that you can dispense with largesse or otherwise withhold to suit yourself but, to date, much of your correspondence with him in respect of contact arrangements could be viewed as obstructive rather than a genuine attempt to act in the best interests of the child.

I seem to recall you've made mention of him referring to his parental rights; I'm not advising you to grovel to him but I am advising you to swallow some of your pride in the interests of your dd's welfare and to forestall the possibility of him applying to the Courts for equal parenting time.

Flexibility is key. It won't hurt your dd to miss the odd party, nor will it hurt him to drop her off early either at your home or at a party venue providing he isn't made to feel he's walking the gauntlet and that you offer him additional opportunity to spend quality time with his dd to compensate.

While you still have it all to play for, you would be ill-advised to lose sight of the fact that honey attracts more flies than vinegar.

Put your desire to bludgeon him away and let 'subtle' be your maxim if for no other reason than revenge is a dish best eaten cold.

I know all that, and I agree with your assessment of him. But what is going to follow is a protracted period of trying to sort out your co-parenting relationship and separate that from your previous marriage.

Don't give him ammo. I don't remotely subscribe to the view I gave above, that he gets kicked if he goes on holiday but you're allowed to change the contact schedule at will. Just highlighting that is how it can be spun if he wants to.

I said to my mum earlier, let him go for equal custody if he wants to! He will never do it. She could spend a week here, then a week there. he would have to bring her here to school every day, then pick her up every day or arrange and pay for childcare til he gets home, which could be late in the evening. His business is so important to him, as are his friends that he will never go for equal time with her. It simply doesnt suit his job.

My friends simply do not want to speak to him. This is their choice and I dont blame them. They are not rude to him in front of DD and they speak to her obviously. A lot of them feel let down by him too as they tried to be friendly to him and include him in stuff and then he says that he had no friends here, so he has hurt them and their husbands too. They are all disgusted that he could walk out on his wife and DD with no warning and just say "this is the way I am". I dont blame them for not wanting to be "Hi mate , how are you?"

Each time I say I want her on Sunday, I make sure that I swap it for Saturday, I am not stopping him from seeing her. Indeed, with the summer holidays, I have offered him more time with her, which he cannot accept due to work...... When I have asked him to bring her back at 6pm from September onwards, I have offered him to pick her up earlier so he doesnt lose time with her.

He has a terrible memory and cant organise anything, but it is up to him to pull his finger out and sort out his access to her. This is why I give him plenty of notice of these things, so he can write them down and plan ahead and not have me changing his plans at the last minute.

I know it wont hurt her to miss the odd party, but this is 4 kids parties now that she would have missed if I didnt ask him to swap. she already missed her cousins party because it was on his birthday and I didnt like to ask him to swap as I thought it would be mean.

Anyway, time for bed, its nearly 1am and Ive been up late working! Got to get up at 7am! Night all!

forgot to say - thanks Trib, I do see what you are saying, that you dont agree but are making the point that that is how he could spin it to his friends and family. He is such a shit.

He referred to the Michael McIntyre show earlier when he asked about having DD in August as I wanted him to have her Saturday or Monday. He said where will she be on the Saturday, as its the show that weekend? I just emailed back , she will be at my mums, while I go to the show in XX, but she will be home in time for you on Saturday morning.

Its the first time he has mentioned the show, so I hope he doesnt think he is still going! Maybe I should have said while me and DN (neighbour) go to the show.... to make it plain that his ticket is no longer available...

This is the show that OW, her H and her friend will all be at, in the seats next to us.... Not looking forward to it really.. Going to put my neighbour between me and them though, lol. She can ward off any death ray stares that come from OW..

If you corner a rat, you should be prepared for it to spring at you. You're best advised not to corner your rat, skye, until you've got financial settlements and like sorted.

With regard to the MM show; I'd be tempted to rent beg, borrow, or steal an exceedingly hunky escort and have him drape himself over my carefully coiffed and dressed to impressed bod while the ow and h store up memories of the evening to relate to cinderfella when they get home

As you're going with your neighbour I suggest you come back nearer the date for a selection of barbs innoucuous remarks that she/you can make to each other in earshot of the happy couple.

I wouldn't bother looking the ow in the face; I'd be looking at her hands and counting how many times she could be seen playing with her mobile

innocuous not innoucuous

If I were you, I wouldn't mention the MM show again. Let it be a surprise for him to discover he's not wanted on any voyage you make - given that he's made plans to voyage with the ow and her cuckold dh, he can hardly complain.

Izzy - lol at the mobile, and wish I had thought about hiring a handsome hunk to drive me there! Too late now, DN will never forgive me if I don't take her lol.

Had my third counselling session today. I was a lot stronger, cried a few times but not through the whole session. We discussed the holiday and the fact he lied to me, it was just one more excuse, he probably meant it at the time but it wasn't really a reason.

She said that he never takes responsibility for himself, he met me and moved in with me as he had to move out of his rented house. Then he leaves me and moves into their home, being looked after by them.

I said he is the cuckoo in the nest and it will all go pear shaped in time, when OW gets tired of dangling him on a string. She said OW will then want to distance herself from my H so that her H doesnt find out the full extent of the contact, she will then want him out of the house, will discourage her H from seeing my H and my H will then have to take responsibility for his own life, but that's not my problem. She said I need to be prepared for him to come running back then and be strong enough to deal with it.

She said he may have walked out me but this is my decision to divorce him and move on. She said i will probably never know the truth of why he left or how long he was unhappy and I need to accept that.

She said that he needs to tell DD the week before he goes away that he won't see her the following week as its unfair for me to have to deal with all the fallout.

She said that he needs counselling and if he doesn't get it he will end up with an empty life but none of that is my responsibility that I have to cut all ties in caring about what happens to him. my only concern is our DD and how he handles her

I feel better each time I see her.

That all sounds like good, solid advice skye. I'm glad you're finding the sessions beneficial.

I think it is a good point about being ready for the OW to 'dump' him and him to come running back. All the more reason to press on with the divorce.

Btw, re: MM, why don't you offer your DH an extra contact night?

Because he won't have her til he's in his own place. If he is by then , I will suggest it as it makes sense. But he will probably say no due to work as he never knows what time he is going to be home.....

You're being brilliant, Skye. What you said to your dd when she said she missed you was lovely.

You sound so much stronger now than when you started your first elephant thread.

I am glad your counselling is going well now. The first session was a bit of a shock, but now she sounds like she's pretty good for you.

How quickly can you get your financial stuff sorted. I have a horrid feeling he's going to get difficult.

Oops, it's 4am and I should have gone to bed hours ago!friends gave been and gone, have drunk lots if wine, recycle bin makes me look like an alkie! Eaten lots if pizza and rubbish too but had great night. Totally drunk, had great evening. Out tomorrow night with friends, looking forward to it, shame no single men though lol

Christ do I feel rough today! 2 bottles of wine not a good idea!

I was very restrained while drunk last night. My friend saw my STBXH last week in a work situation so had to be polite to him which he saw as a green light that she was friendly. He said to her " I just wish she would talk to me, I don't like us not being friends" she said she didn't get chance to reply as the office phone started ringing.

I wanted to email him " fuck you arsehole Ive made it quite plain that we can't be friends , I despise you. You are a lying twunt. Fuck off. Stop trying to add all my friends back in Facebook as they all know that you said you had no friends here in XXXXXX and they think you are a total shit for what you have done to to us"

BUT I DIDN'T EMAIL HIM! feel better for saying it here though

So glad you had a great night!!! And how pathetic that he is trying to get your friends to get you to talk to him, he must completely be losing it! At least you can sit back and laugh, he left you, therefore he still wants to be friends??? What an idiot! And well done for not emailing or texting - keep it up, you are the one in control now, the one with a social life - in years to come, he will regret all he has lost

And don't worry about recycle bin - you should see ours at the end of the week

skye - that is an amazing display of 'restraint whilst drunk', well done you!

"I don't like us not being friends" - what a sad fucker. He walked out of your life together and he's surprised you're miffed? That your friends might think he's a wanker? WTF did he expect ?

And remember, you can always vent here - drunk or sober

Thanks. I am proud of myself off out tonight for a meal with friends. Hope I can stay awake long enough! Knackered!

Had letter from solicitor today, my decree nisi will be filed on Tuesday and I could be divorced by the end of August, although he says it won't be done by then because of the finances.

Like all party animals, you need a siesta to keep your strength up, skye! I'm very impressed you can manage two nights out on the trot.

Skye, that is SUCh a major step for you, well done. Glad you are having some fun. We can be divorce buddies lol!

I couldn't manage two nights on the trot though! I'm impressed by that alone lol. xxx

Well done Skye for not letting him know that you're still hurt - you know that silence is the most powerful weapon against people who thrive on attention, but its soooo hard!

My stbxh kept talking about us being friends too, why he thinks I want to be friends with someone who let me down so badly in my marriage I don't know. I thought it was possible to start with, but only because I couldn't imagine a life without him in it, so friendship seemed better than nothing.

The longer I go without seeing him the less I miss him and I don't feel the need to be involved with him and the DCs, its just too painful to have what I always wanted (him involved in family life) but only by not having my family any more

Hope you have a great night out tonight too - I've got a couple of evenings out planned for this week when the DCs are away but don't think I'll manage 2 bottles of wine!!

Just been to a fun day with DD. I'm so tired I can barely keep my eyes open! Tonight is a gang of us round a friends house, mostly couples and four singles , 3 women and 1 man I think! It's £10 a head for a catered meal, take your own wine. Food theme is "All around the world".

I dont usually do one night out a month, never mind two in one week! My social life has never been better! And I thought my life was over, lol.

I'm just so flaming tired!

Betcha you didn't think a few months ago that you'd be complaining about being tired from going out having so much fun, skye!

Just having a major crying fit and can't stop myself.... I just want my old life back when we were all happy. I'm on my own again today, full of self pity but have had a brilliant weekend do far do don't know why I'm like this now. Actually it's probably two nights worth of hangovers crashing in on me!

DD has gone off all excited as STBXH and OW and her H are taking her to the sandcastle competition today so she's gone off with her swimsuit and bucket and spade. It's lovely to see her so happy but I hate that we are not together all three of us. And once again he is going somewhere that he would not go with me as he wasn't interested yet now he's living their life he goes with them .......

If we didn't have the finances to sort we could be divorced by the end of August and I can't believe that would be just six months from when he walked out. How the hell did my life change so quickly?!

Everybody keeps telling me that in two years time u will be happier than ever and I try and hold on to that thought....

I need to get a grip big time today!

I do think it's probably the after-effects of all that partying, skye, plus the realisation from your solicitor's convo that (in theory at least) the divorce could shortly be a reality.

Your ex is living in a very artificial bubble at the moment (I wonder how many of these entertainments for dd are arranged by the OW on his behalf) where he effectively has to entertain her cos he has nowhere else to go with her. His true colours will come out in time. He was never a good husband and father, it was just less obvious then.

Aw Skye, I'm on my own today too, its hard isn't it.

Just try to remember that in your old life, he wouldn't have been taking her to the sandcastle thingy, he'd have been working.

Same as my ex wouldn't be spending today with them, DS1 would be out with his mates, I'd be hanging out with the other two and H would be tinkering in the garage, hiding on his laptop in the office or watching the Formula 1, so this is better for them all + I get to go shopping on my own without feeling bad for leaving him in the lurch with them.

Its OK to cry, but just make sure you know that you're not crying because you miss your old life so much, more that you miss the life you wish you could have had but never did. The fact that he now looks like he can offer this, but chose not to is sad for you all, but don't dwell on it as you know that if he came back he would revert back to his old ways with you. He's on his best behaviour for OW (and how much of a mug is her H by the way!?! Bless him.)

We did always spend the weekend together though and Sundays we either stayed home or went to visit family. I just feel empty now as he should be sat here reading the paper while DD plays in the garden.

It's all so wrong. He smashed up our family rather than talk to me. He turned to her to discuss everything rather than talk to me. He's still in denial about what he's done. I hope he realises one day.

Of course he will realise one day. He will regret his actions, and by that time you will be completely happy, with a fulfilling life , who knows you may have a fabulous rich and gorgeous partner, who your daughter will adore and an amazing job! And he will be living in a bedsit / small flat somewhere in town in a dead end job - the friends will be fed up with him , and she will realise she needs to save her marriage by removing him from the equation - therefore he will be on his own - and his only enjoyment will be seeing his daughter every sunday . Doesn't sound much of a cheerful future for him!

Just eaten two bacon rolls, a can of coke and some chocolate hobnobs.

Not very healthy but a tested hangover cure!

Have finally stopped crying and self pitying. Watching an old episode of Doctor Who, grand prix starts soon, my brother is there as a family member who works for one of the top teams gave him free tickets! He could have took me!

On the bright side I'm off on holiday in a week, hope the weather picks up by then!

Hope you havestayed strong for the rest of today. Weekends are hard, and I'm only on number 2 lol. xxx

DD came home all excited about the sandcastle competition and said that OW had come with STBXH to bring her home again. She said that daddy dropped OW off round the corner to see her sister. OW does not have a sister.....

So I text him, couldnt help myself, and said DD tells me that OW came with you and you dropped her off round the corner. this is the second week she has said this. It seriously does not concern me what you do nowadays, so please dont hide her on my account.....

He texted back - Im not hiding her, she has friends in XXXXX and I dropped her off there and she is still there now.

Well - as far as I know, OW does not have any friends in XXXX where we live as it has never cropped up in conversation before, which it would have because its the first thing you say when you find out where somebody lives isnt it - oh do you know so and so. and the last time we went out together before the split, she was talking about people that she did know in a couple of nearby villages, but my STBXH specifically said XXXX where we live.....

Anyway, if its true, I presume he goes there too and then takes her home, as he is only here for 5 mins which is not long enough for her to visit somebody, or else its not true and its an excuse that she can give to her H for her to come with my STBXH and be out of the house for a couple of hours ....... Her H cant come too as the van only has 3 seats in the front. If she had friends where we live, then how come they never called in on us when they visited them? and why does she visit them every week now??? None of it stacks up, so they have to be lying.

its just one more nail in the coffin and reminds why he is a prick and why Im better off without him. Crying today was more out of hangover and hormones I think, rather than anything else, I certainly dont want him back anymore.

It seriously doesnt upset me any more to think about him and OW . I just think how pathetic they are and how pathetic her H is for not seeing what is going on under his own nose! If there wasnt anything going on before, its starting to look like there may be now...... its the next step from an emotional affair isnt it?!,,

Skye skye skye, you did so well not texting/emailing drunk, but caved in today!

Repeat: disengage!

I know....... I blew it when sober! I didnt text him back again though, when I really wanted to say, oh yeah, who are these friends then, funny that she never mentioned them before now? and how come she doesnt visit them with her H and why does she suddenly visit them every week?

so I was slightly restrained ?!

I cant wait to get the divorce finalised and over and then send the stuff to her H. I am more determined than ever that he needs to know how his wife and best friend betrayed him. He is being taken for a complete fool.

No more contact I promise!

She's going out with him to 'drop off his daughter' and probably getting home a couple of hours later - he must know surely!?

not if they say they are visiting friends? maybe she has lied to him and said that some friends have now moved to chulmleigh? How can people lie so easily?

or maybe Im just too cynical and suspicious and its true?

I dont trust anybody any more! But having said that, my DD also said that OW and STBXH "shook hands" when OW got out of the van..... DD is only 4 so of course you cant believe everything she says, and I cant quiz her on it, but......

Hurry up divorce, so I can drop the pair of them in the shit! My STBXH will end up homeless and friendless....... how my heart bleeds.. unless of course him and OW move in together, which in my opinion would be the ultimate revenge as she is a bitch and he will see that side of her when its just him and her.....

I just wish my DD didnt love OW so much! She comes home talking about her all the time, how OW went to the park, OW baked cakes with her, OW looks cute in her netball outfit.....

and DD said earlier " when daddy gets his own house, I can have lots of sleepovers there and see you at the weekend to do special things" I said no darling, you will still live with mummy and see daddy at the weekend, its just that sometimes you will sleepover there, but you will still live here....

Shook hands/held hands?

Its very confusing for her isn't it. If it were a real 'out in the open' relationship you would be able to put some boundaries on when the other person should be introduced to DD, but as its a stealth, sneaky 'friendship' they have been able to bypass the usual etiquette of the OW/OM and just let her jump right on in there as "aunty whatsername" from the start.

DD will always know that you are her main carer regardless of how often and how much fun she has with X & OW, don't worry x

Today DD is saying that daddy and OW had a kiss and a cuddle when OW got out of the van and he said "miss you" ...... She even demonstrated it by kissing me! (she always tells a story like that lol, )

But DD is 4 yo and doesn't always tell the truth..... And I can't quiz her because I won't do that to her. It's all just coming out bit by bit.

I do feel like texting him and saying keep your hands off OW in front of DD as its confusing her, but of course I can't!!!

I wish I could follow them next week and see what happens..... If I could get photographic proof .....

skye, so frustrating for you

you know what is "coming out" slowly was the truth all along

but keep your own counsel, keep your dignity

they are getting more open in front of your dd, so their masks will slip soon and it will all come out

you don't want to be in the middle of that, or implicated in any way, when it happens

What AF said, Skye. Really. It's the only way to go. Keep your composure and dignity and rise about what this pair are doing, as hard as it must be to do that. You CAN.

I can't believe how lying and deceitful he has become!

He was the last person in the world you would have down as a cheat.

I hope to god it all comes out and he loses his friend, his home snd everything!

This is one to put in the memory bank for the time being - nothing gets wasted and no doubt you'll have opportunity to use it to your advantage, but in the interim you're best advised to keep it strictly to yourself.

While you've got access to free counselling it might be an idea for you to explore how you'd feel if he sets up home with the ow and they play happy families with dd.

I think you need to change your petition to adultery! (not worth it financially though probably) & tell her husband!

There's no proof of adultery, midwife. We know it's happened but the devil's in the detail.

Best to keep schtum, skye. Your time will come.

Yes you're right of course [retreats back into scorned woman corner]

Hell hath no fury, honey... and there will come a time for a grand unleashing of the furies. They won't know what's hit 'em

Too right izzy

Its so difficult because she is only 4. If she breaks something or makes a mess and you say who did that, she says her friends did it and they havent been anywhere near the place! But this information she is coming out with of her own accord.... so I think it probably is true, but cant be certain!

Im glad I went right on with the divorce now because if this is all true, then it shows him that Im not available as an option any more..... To start with I would have taken him back no matter what he had done, but I dont feel like that any more.

and yes, hell hath no fury. Once my divorce is finalised, and the ink dry on the financial settlement and H is off the deeds to the house, I will be posting the info to her H, texting him to make sure he got it.... and ringing him. He gets home an hour and a half before his W does, so perfect opportunity.......

I dont wish to ruin his life, but he needs to know so he can decide for himself, not be cuckolded by them pair.

izzy - funnily enough we touched on this last week as I said H was welcome to go for joint custody, as there is no way that he would want her 50% of the time, he would not be able to do school runs etc. She said fast forward 2 years, what happens if he meets a woman, she is happy to do school runs etc, then H could go for custody. i said let him carry on, let him have to deal with the day to day crap instead of me. He wont last 5 minutes......

It is something that I need to talk to counsellor about, you are right. If they did shack up together, I wouldnt want DD anywhere near OW, but would have no choice would I.......

Oh course it's true. Has ow's h not seen the divorce petition then?

Bearing in mind that you won't have seen/texted/spoken to ow for a couple of months by the time the MM show comes around, I'm working on a little scenario for you to enact which should get the group hoiday off to a good start, skye.

You will be acting the part of innocent ingenue puts unintentional and purely accidental foot it in it without even realising what she's done.

Practice butter wouldn't melt looks in the mirror and rehearse light hearted tones of voice.

lol, yes I have been running scenario's through my head, in case she opens her mouth - dicussing it loudly with my neighbour perhaps

"yes thats them, yes the blonde one is OW, yes the one that H was texting 100 times a day right up til bedtime, and emailed all the time, and had secret facebook chats with, you know the secret one, the one that said go back to text, H is coming. No its, ok, I dont need to keep my voice down, her H knows all about it! They told me! He obviously doesnt have a problem with the fact that his best mate and wife have betrayed him, still thats his business isnt it, ooh look MM is on, shhhh"..........

Tut, tut. Far too crass! If you go with that plan you'll end up making a spectacle of yourself rather than her.

dont worry, I wont really. Im not doing anything until the financial stuff is sorted. Like my solicitor said, he should be feeling damn guilty at the moment and will agree to walk away with less than he would if he was arsy in a couple of years time.

So I dont want to upset him..... and of course if he loses his cosy place to stay he might ask for more money, so once its all sorted, I shall then present OW's H with what I know, but not before then, tempting as it may be.

Of course, if it is all sorted by then, I could just drop the envelope of stuff in his lap on the way out

izzy give me a scenario of what you were thinking

Nope. It's being drafted and redrafted. When it's done you'll get the completed script.

I'd like to see izzy's script when it's completed

I'd be doing something like (just before MM) making statements like <sympathetic head tilt> "I feel so sorry for [OW's H], he must have felt so isolated when ex and OW were texting each other all the time. He's been so dignified about me naming his wife on my divorce petition - a real class act. At least we can hold our heads high at MM".

<horror crosses your face as you slowly realise that no-one knows about the texting, the naming, any of it>

"Oh gosh, I assumed people knew now .. oh dear me".

Izzy - can't wait! My own little prayers to karma include the fact that my stbx FIL has the same initial & obviously surname as stbxh & they're living at the same address. Please karma please let FIL open divorce petition citing affair with cousin etc!! Wicked I know!

at midwife, that really would be karma!

izzy cant wait to see the script....

aarrggh! why am I crying again? I cant seem to stop at the moment, it must be hormonal!! Just thinking about holiday, what to take etc, food to buy, then got thinking about all the stuff I dont need because STBXH wont be there and it bloody set me off again! Just had to delete stuff off the Tesco favourites, shaving gel, razors, all the food that only he ate.

I hate him, I really do! We will have a good holiday without him, but its the first one, so will be a bit weird. my mum is coming for a couple of nights though, I think she knows how hard it will be for me.

Mr Nice Guy isnt so nice. He sat in my living room the day he left (the first time) and said "the trouble with me is Im too nice and I just let people walk all over me and dont say anything, just bottle it all up and then walk out, I always handle things badly, its just what I do".

I wrote him that letter telling him how lovely he was, thinking he was having some sort of breakdown and that he needed reassurance, and now I hope he has burned the fooking thing. He is not lovely, he is a bastard. I shall write him another one after the divorce, telling him what a disappointment he is, what a cold unemotional person he is and I hope he is ashamed of leaving his daughter.

It's a rollercoster & we want to get off!

why cant we just fall asleep fast forward and wake up in two years, divorced, with a lovely new man by our sides?

Trouble is, I thought I had that last time and look what happened, how the hell am I ever going to trust anyone again! Well, I suppose thats what the counselling is for........

positive again now, looking at breaks for half term, or the weekend that I will have her when H is "unavailable". or a day out with friends using Clubcard vouchers. something to look forward to....

Yes that really helps. I booked a holiday via the small families website so I have other single parents to have fun with. Arranging nights out etc.

Whoever said 'love and hate are very similar' had a point - you have both going on at the moment Skye. You can't stop yourself getting involved with him, with OW, with her OH...

I hope with time the vindictiveness will fade - I';m not being horrible, just that that amount of emotion is verfy difficult to sustain without trauma to you.

Cold detactment is best, not this 'white hot' heat of betrayal, despair, blame.

I'm going for some counselling advice tomorrow - think they'll only advise me on who to go and see, rather than actual counselling straight away but little steps. Hope mine is a bit more gentle with me than yours was with you Skye!

Yes I agree - I'm looking forward to indifference. This level of high emotion is exhausting isn't it?

Mine was much better on the second visit, I think she felt so sorry for me on the first visit that her personal feelings overtook the professional ones. See, I mess everyone up lol.

My friend just got my suitcase out the loft for me and found a load of STBXH's clothing up there, so that's in a bag waiting for him... He's going to see DD tomorrow as he has an appointment on Wednesday.

I know I sound vindictive at times but he is living a cosy little life with his friends and left me with a house to run, a business to run, bills to pay, a child to look after .

All I want is for his friend to know the truth and that day will come when my divorce is finalised and that will be the last time that I have anything to do with STBXH and his life (apart from DD obviously).

Yes, indifference is the word . Not there yet, still in the hate mode.!

When I go into icy cold detached mode you can bet it's fuelled by white hot fire - and exceptionally cleansing it is too.

After the initial shock of betrayal, flailing around in an excess of emotion is tiring, both for the victim and for their comforters. It won't change anything, it's undignified, and it's damaging for any dc to witness.

If anyone is struggling with an excess of rage and/or feelings of vindictiveness, I suggest they go kick the shit out of a cushion. I have a piece of old sheeting that I use for 'strangling' purposes.

I keep a little offcut in my briefcase along with a set of worry beads - the Greeks knew about therapy long before we did

Skye's counsellor appears to have been elevated to the status of 'new best friend', Doing, and it seems to me that she's been nothing other than gentle and reasonable, albeit that skye was unable to perceive this on her first session.

Telling people what they want to hear isn't always in their best interests as we achieve personal growth through challenge, including navigating our way through the fallout of events that we may not have anticipated.

There's a failsafe way to alert the cuckold ow's h before the ink is dry on your Absolute without any shit sticking to you, skye.

Practise 'insouciance' in a mirror. Get your head into a place where you can see yourself greeting the ow and her h as long lost friends. 'See' yourself as being full of grace and charm as you talk to them.

And because it's advisable not to overlook any eventuality in these matters, imagine how you would feel if you arrive at the MM show to find that the ow is there with your stbxh while hers plays Cinderfella at home with the dog or plays dressing up in her netball skirt.

Yes it did cross my mind that STBXH might be there... They bought 3 tickets as the system wouldn't let them buy two when there were three spaces left so they are taking her friend. We were all going to stay over. I'm wondering if they would drop her friend to take my H... Or like you say leave her H at home and mine goes with the two girls..... Who knows!

My counsellor is very good and she is making me look at my own behaviour and issues but also trying to make me see that I couldn't have stopped this happening. He emotionally detached from me and blamed me for everything. A normal man would have discussed that he was unhappy, not walked out because the house was a messier one of the other many reasons he gave.

And she agreed with me that the best thing to do about my sarcastic nature was to think before I speak, whereas my H said I shouldn't need to think before I speak......, but it's a known technique to control anger , sarcasm and other issues, think what you are saying white you say it!

The counsellor said that we need to build up a relationship to be able to talk honestly, which is what we are doing.

You'll need a script for each eventuality <<sharpens pencil>> <<licks point>>

Thanks Izzy, lol. We are all looking forward to this...!!

no pressure, izzy

FFS IZZY HURRY UP!

AARRGGHH!!!! STUPID TWUNT!!

He texts me at 3.20 to say he's stuck in traffic and won't be on time for DD, who is usually out at 3.20! Twat! I text him back and sdid but late to tell me now! I had to rush back from work, luckily was only just down the road,but have been out of signal most of the day!

I rang the school and my neighbour grabbed her and I rushed up there. He turned up as i was walking up the road, I ignored him, walked past the van, went to get DD then when I came back I stood DD by van, said bye to her and walked off. He didn't get out of the van until I'd walked off!

I have text him the school number and said ring them next time and sort it out yourself as its not my job if you are picking her up!

He just texted back - all I can say is sorry, I allowed 40 mins but got held up twice in traffic...

You are too controlling and organising but the first thing he does is calls you when he fucks up.

Why didn't he call you when he got stuck in traffic the first time or the second time. 10 or 15 minutes early not when she is due out of the school

Texting is unacceptable. He has no idea if you receive a text or not. He should have called. I bet if he hadn't made it and you didn't pick up the text it would be your fault not his.

He has no excuses now he knows the school number.

Who is on the allowed list to collect your DD? I can see him making OW an allowed collector for your DD if he cannot make it.

Twunt

He lives a 30-40 minute drive away now. OW works full time so would not be able to pick up DD.

I honestly was working with no mobile signal earlier. It's only because I finished early and came back nearer home to work that I got the message otherwise he would have been 20 minutes late and poor DD would have been the last one to be picked up and I wouldn't have known about it!

That's why I wanted to make the point to him that it's his responsibility not mine if he is due to get her, he needs to start accepting some responsibility! Not expect me to sort it out. And if he hadn't cut off everyone where we live when he left he could have asked the neighbour! Idiot!

he is a grade-A dick

But as someone said to me Skye, there are worse places for a child to be waiting than a school. You don't want that for her, but if it did happen on his day, the only person responsible is him, so don't feel guilty if you don't get a signal or miss a message. It is his responsibility as a parent to have other plans in place.

I told H the other day that this is why it is important for me to have coffee with friends and go out with them in the evenings - its not just for my own enjoyment, its building a network of people I can trust to help me.

I said that he needs to have some people he can call on when he needs a favour as I will be out and about on 'his' days doing other things (meetings/deliveries/shopping) that I can't do when the DCs are here and I won't be at his beck and call if he gets stuck, similarly he would be the last person I would ask (& is unlikely to be available anyway).

Guess what - he managed to finish work 20 mins early and be at school in plenty of time!

stupid prick dropped her off, then text to say she had wet herself, so I text him back and said she does that quite a lot recently, the health visitor said its a reaction to you leaving her. (HV did honestly say that....)

he text back to say that my behaviour is hardly helping her and that he will have her all the time if she is an inconvenience to me!

so I text back to say that me and her have lots of cuddles, she is secure with me, knows that Im not going to leave her and we have lots of fun. I also said that I hardly think he could have her all the time as he cant even manage one day a week in the summer holidays!

Does he think hes going to fight me for custody?! Maybe he thinks he will get the house that way?!

He just text back, fine, just no need to make childish digs! So I just text him back and said I wasnt, I was merely pointing out how this has affected her, its the consequences of his actions that he needs to face up to. Im the one picking up the pieces. My only concern is for my daughter.

This is all because I didnt speak to him earlier... Poor little twunt is upset about it, diddums.... stupid prick faced prick.

He is indeed a prick faced prick

Now stop texting the prick faced prick immediately and vent on here

You will never get through to him. He's a selfish immature arse wipe

you are engaging again

step away from the text-tennis !

I know, I know! Im so fucking mad though! But just had a good laugh about his patheticness!

I text him to say, tell your employee to post his stuff to you as you dont live here any more, change your address, change your website to remove the reference to your wife and daughter and take my phone number off it.

so he text back to say if you are that desperate to remove all traces then we need to get my name off the mortgage, so I text back and said, thats obvious, dont worry its all in hand!

haha, he thinks he can threaten me, but he doesnt realise that had to happen anyway! Hes such a loser!

I text him back and said that we didnt argue when we were married so now point in arguing by text now. I said hopefully we will be divorced by Christmas :-)

I know its engaging with him, but I feel so much better now . He can go fuck himself

I have stepped away from it now... I wont do it again, I promise.......

Agree with AF STEP AWAY FROM THE PHONE. He expects you to respond, think how much you'll mess with his brain if you just ignore him?

Well done for staying restrained....but stay away from the phone no matter what he says next! He is just trying to mess with you - how pathetic is he! All because someone won't speak to him! If he thinks him not talking to you , rather than him leaving you for another women - well the judge will laugh him out of court! Turn the phone off, glass of wine and enjoy the evening laughing at him being pathetic!

So tempting but best to ignore him honey. Easier said than done!

There's more of this petty shit to come once you start getting into the financial settlement, skye. Major restraint is going to be needed because the arguments are likely to be bad going through the lawyers but going round them will be dreadful.

I can completely understand why you downed tools to fetch dd but you should have just replied 'please advise the school and arrange a pick-up' (even if secretly you were belting home so she wasn't left there). I had to call once when DH and I were stuck in traffic on the way back from the hospital and ds went down to the after school club with his teacher for half an hour. I was mortified but there was nothing we could do, short of never again booking an appointment with the hospital after midday!

You have to bear in mind, on the days you pick her up (i.e. always), you don't have him on speed-dial ready to step in if you hit a snag, do you?

<emerges from concussed stupor caused by so much banging head on wall>

STOP TEXTING / ENGAGING!

The other day (sober) you at least sent just the one text and left it - good progress......

This time you sent him a v reasonable one with the school's number in case this happens again, but then got into a text row and lots of uneccessary drama.

And thinking over scenarios at a bloody MM gig, awaiting more drama, when the sensible thing to do would be to get rid of the tickets.

It is taking your energy and attention away from more important things.

(Understand he's a twunt and v provoking).

Sorry for the lecture. Going for some gin.

Can I have one Dozer? Sorry love I agree about the MM tickets too. Please sell them on eBay or give them to a friend. The drama ain't worth it. You know I'm sitting on my hands right now to stop myself sending a flurry of vitriol to stbx but it's just not worth it & a waste of my energy. I have also managed somehow not to reply to any if his "financial plans" emails. I know you can do it too honey!!!

Midwife, I have a feeling the tickets are non-transferable, I'm sure skye mentioned this once before. I agree, though, something's gotta give before the MM day.

Oh Skye, come to JCS with me instead!

Yes of course midwife!

If tickets can't be sold, still better not to go.

yes , I know. Think its hormones ...... I only want to discuss the finances with him via solicitor or mediation. I just love the way he threatens stuff and then I just took the wind out of his sails! I love the way he thinks he can walk out and I should just behave like nothing has happened!

DD has repeated the story tonight, I rang her pretending to be Lizzie, the character from the holiday park show, to try and get her to go to bed, and she started telling Lizzie me that Daddy had done to live somewhere else and she sees him at the weekend and does nice things with him and OW. Sometimes OW H comes too, but theres no room in the van for him to bring me home. OW goes to visit her sister, daddy drops her off round the corner she doesnt have a sister daddy was upset when OW got out of the van and held her hand. This was all coming out because she was talking to Lizzie.

BUT to put things in perspective, she also came home from school and said that the preschool leader told her that when she starts school she will never see me again and will have to live on a bus and never get off it. So she does make things up.........

No smoke without fire and obviously an element of truth in there somewhere (the OW van story, not the school bus story, lol)

dozer sorry for the concussion. You know Im my own worst enemy when it comes to contact!!! I have been restrained for so long, I just had a mad couple of days!!

ooh yes and re MM tickets - they are paperless tickets, which means that in order to collect them you have to turn up with photo ID and the credit card used to pay for them. So I have to collect them, or not use them.

Its going to be a fun night isnt it

Don't use them! Write it off to experience!!

I know but my friend is so looking forward to it now. It will be uncomfortable at worst. I wont say anything as I really dont like confrontation, especially in public. If she starts on me, I will let security throw her out.... My friend will sit between me and them and once show is on and we are all laughing at MM, will forget about them anyway.

Am determined to go and hold head up high, I have done nothing wrong and will not slink away in case I ruin their evening!

Make sure you look as glamourous as you can ! And have an amazing time , always the best revenge ;)

Darling you are insane to contemplate going. Don't go. Please. What the hell is the point? Your friend will understand/ get over it! You've paid whether you go or not. Please listen to us.

I know I and others have driven you mad and been bloody bossy and bloody harsh. But that's because we could see the woods, you could only see the trees. We were right about the date, about the ow and about disengaging. I say this to remind you we are on your side and have objective clarity, not to say we told you so.
X

Long-term lurker, here. Have you talked about the MM night with your counsellor? Might be worth bringing it up because I honestly don't think it's going to do you any good. And I get the impression you're looking forward to it. Planning your outfit? Wrong, wrong, wrong.

You're still focussing on them. How is it going to help you disengage, which is what you agree you should be doing?

I do see what you are saying, but I have been looking forward to this, I booked the tickets before they did, then they decided to come with us. I booked the tickets in March 2011 when the tour was announced and have been looking forward to it for a very long time. If I dont go, then I feel that I am letting them win by stopping me going. Plus there is several weeks to go til the end of August and anything could happen by then.....

I will talk to the counsellor about it and see how she thinks to deal with it.

Im looking forward to the show, but not looking forward to seeing them, but only because its going to be uncomfortable. I intend to ignore them basically, as Im sure they will me. Anything said above has been written in jest, I have no desire to talk to them.

Maybe when I get there I could ask the people a couple of rows behind if they wanted to swap seats or something. But I feel like its letting them win. They will think that I cant face them when in fact I can, quite happily. It is them who should feel uncomfortable, not me. OW is very good at giving evils as she calls it, let her carry on.

I will make a decision nearer the time, but I feel if I dont go to something that I have paid for and been looking forward to, that they are continuing to ruin my life. The shit could hit the fan before then anyway, if her H discovers anything....

Question - am I within my rights to ask my H if he is going abroad on holiday, as I would need to know where he is, as if anything happened to DD I would need to get hold of him? (when he is on holiday he usually puts his phone on divert to a business contact).

Both your last posts are all about you getting sucked back in - whether you dress it up as revenge/anger/putting two fingers up at them/showing them you feel great or don't care/not 'letting them win'. You are deluding yourself.

Who cares who did or didn't book the tickets first? This is the here and now. I don't see you coming out of this feeling good about yourself or the situation. You are not in control of it. They do not care if they 'win' or not on this one, it means fuck all to them. I think getting dolled up will be transparent and embarassing. I think ignoring them pointedly will be transparent and embarassing. I think approaching them will be a disaster (I know you don't intend to).

Re the holiday - no you have no right to ask where he's going. And again, it's really just a way - or will be seen by him and OW as a way - to find out where he is and what he's doing. Just tell him he needs to keep his mobile on all the time or be on email or text in case of emergency.

Proudnscary is right on the money here, sorry Skye.

I can understand why you want to go to the MM gig and, yes, you have every right to go. But this isn't about rights, it's about doing what's best for you. At the moment, I cannot see you being able to go and the whole situation not affecting you negatively.

As for the holiday - no, no, NO! I think, if you're completely honest with yourself, you want to know if he's going abroad for the wrong reasons. I can see no problem with you asking for a contact number/email that he can check when away, in case you need to convey anything urgent to him about DD, but you have no right to ask where he is going.

Sorry to be harsh, Skye, I can see how much of a rollercoaster this is for you.

I wasnt intending on getting dolled up, I dont wear make up on a day to day basis, only going out of an evening, so I certainly wouldnt wear it to a MM show. I would wear something smart though as its a show.

I just dont see why I should miss out on something Ive been looking forward to just because they are there. They are affecting my life if I dont go and they shouldnt be affecting it in any way.

Just a thought. If you go, and appear not to have a care in the world, just getting on with your life, isn't this going to play into their hands? "Oh Skye's all right. No need to feel guilty about her. She was having a whale of a time the other night. Didn't seem at all bothered to see OW..."

And then you'll go home and be in floods, because you're not all right. And you should have been sitting there with STBX. And it hurts.

Somewhere down the line you will have your moment. But it's too soon and too raw just yet. And that moment will come a lot sooner if you focus on your new life, not the fag-ends of the old one.

I agree with proud too honey

gotta add my vote for proudnscary too

Thanks for the support everybody. I just dont want to sit and home and cry because Ive missed the show that Ive waited 18 months to see, just because they are there...

I will see what happens with everything over the next few weeks and then worry about it and decide nearer the time.

If the shits hits the fan, then none of them will be there anyway! ........

Yeah see what happens nearer the time. Meanwhile what sort of emergency would you really want twunt for? He's shown he's fairly useless & disorganised anyway!

Proudnscary is completely right, Skye.

I've noticed in your posts that you seem to be very focused on telling OW's husband about his wife's involvement. Has it occurred to you that actually, he might well be aware of it - and not really mind? He isn't stupid, presumably. You sound as if you're really enjoying the prospect of being the bearer of the news, but it may not be news at all or bring you the satisfaction that you're seeking. I think you should be prepared for that - and also bear in mind that this will be the very last thing that relates to or involves you.

I think this is something you should discuss with your counsellor because at the moment, it's a focus for your attention, you're drawing fire from your visions of what happens when OW's husband is told. I don't think that's healthy AT ALL, even if it is understandable.

Hmmmm might this be relevant to anyone else on here?

Yeah yeah ok!!

Is there no contact with your confirmation email that you could get hold of and see if you could have alternative seats?

Lyingwitch - I was told by my BIL that OW H was told by her at the end if May that they had been texting each other. He went a bit mad at his wife and accused her of throwing herself at my H. he trusted my but not her because she has form.

They both told me that they had told her H at the beginning of April when I found out and I've got proof of the Facebook chat where it's obvious that they were texting emailing and calling each other behind his back before my H left me and proof that they both lied and told me that he knew and that he was with her when she text my H. Also that her H was no good at emitional support and my H was providing that to her. She admits rhat what shes done us wrong. I also have proof of over 100 texts a day between them, all day and all night. And proof that when her H spent the day with my H he didn't text OW once. Proof that they are still texting 11pm at night and 7am in the morning while living in the same house...

Yet they are just good friends with nothing to hide. They are in denial or they are shagging. .

They have played it down to him of that I am sure. I want him to have the full facts. If he decides to ignore it that's up to him but at least he will have the full picture. if they run off together he can't say he wasnt warned. He's not suspicious of the time they spend together as he trusts my H completely.

It's up to him what he goes with the info but it will be the final bit of closure for me once the divorce is over.

Skye.... I know, I've been reading your threads. What I'm getting at is not what happens to your ex/OW/her husband at disclosure, but you - what happens to/for YOU. You seem to be pinning a lot on what will happen; much of which you will probably not be privvy to. Perhaps that's not the case but that's how your posts come across to me.

As far as what you're being told by your ex-BIL or anybody else, I'd take a heart-stoppingly large pinch of salt with any information that you receive on this basis. Hearsay is just that and you simply cannot know what is true, what isn't and what is half-truth or embellished.

I think 'closure' is very healthy and will be a very good and positive thing to enable you to move on to your new - and hopefully - very happy life.

I hear what you are saying and yes I don't know what's true a d what is t any more which is mainly why I want her H to have the info. I can stop thinking about what he does or doesn't know about what his W and friend have been up to and leave the rest up to him. he may be aware of it and ignoring it which is up to him. But if he doesnt then maybe I can stop him from being taken for a total mug.

The only reason I won't do it now is because I don't want to jeopardise my financial settlement so I have to put myself first. The only reason I didn't do it on discovery was because I hoped I could reconcile with my H and didn't want to ruin that at the time....

But now I'm sure I would not take him back so don't care what he thinks of me any more. I didn't feel anything other than irritation when I saw him yesterday.... Ive been trying to pin it down, what I felt, and that was it, irritated, like he annoys me.

I do need to ring my BIL in a professional capacity as I do his accounts. Don't really want to talk about STBXH though, so maybe I should text him that and ask him to ring me. I dont know whether I should still do the accounts or even if he will still want me to so we need to talk about it.

Right, off to bed, fell asleep on the sofa, just woke up and it's 1.30am!

My solicitor had left a message to say that my H's solicitor has rang to chase up form E as they want to sort out the finances.

So H has gone from being in no hurry to divorce to being in a rush to sort out the finances..... Is this coz I got arsy with him the other might I wonder ..,,,,, or just his solicitor doing her job? I have had the form for over a week....

Don't waste time thinking about it.

It may just be the solicitor it may be your H. It makes no difference. Either way just get it done and back as soon as you have all the information and get things moving.

I posted it first class yesterday so he should get it tomorrow.

I still haven't heard from the financial advisor though so no further forward on how much I can borrow. I need him off the deeds but want him to wait til DD us 18 before he can have his money, so not sure how it will all work.

Just want the twunt out my life now

I have just had a major crying fit again, for no particular reason. So I decided to read my thread again (sod the elephant, looks like its really over) (I cant find my other thread any more). Reading it from the start again has reminded me how far I have come since April when he first walked out. I feel so sad to see how desperate I was back then, so sad. Somebody commentated that i would be feeling better by July by the time I went on my holiday and I am feeling much better.

Everybody was so supportive on that thread, even though I had gone against all advice. Some of you are still very supportive now, some of you may be lurking, and some of you have left me altogether and I dont blame you, lol

I went to toddlers this morning for the last time as she starts school in September and a couple of the mums said to me that I was an inspiration, in how I have handled the whole situation with dignity and tried my best to fix the marriage and that I can hold my head up high. I saw the Health Visitor there and he said that today I was feisty and that the last time he saw me, 6 weeks ago, I was broken. So he could see the improvement too.

I have another session of counselling tomorrow at 9am. Im going to let her lead it, as last week it got derailed by me talking about him going on holiday and not want to have DD in the summer holidays. (although it was her suggestion to talk about that and not what she had planned).

I even went on match.com last night to see if there is anybody in my area, I havent paid though, so cant see who is looking at me. They all seem so old (I put 35-45, I am 40), but when I see 47 I think omg thats ancient, lol. (H was 48). I keep forgetting how old I am! Im not taking it any further, I was just curious. I really dont think Im ready to date yet, lol.

You have come an amazingly long way! I remember you doing the Stepford wife bit & vowing to change for him & all that & taking all the blame for him leaving. Hard to believe you're the same person now!

Thanks MW. You were always one of the more helpful posters and quite firm with me too. Im sorry you ended up in the same position...

Like we keep saying, its a rollercoaster isnt it. I think I get upset everytime there is communication from the solicitor. and due on this week which doesnt help!

I cant believe I have come such a long way in such a short space of time either. I really thought Id still be sat around crying this time next year....... Now me and my friend who separated in December are having a divorce race, lol. Im winning because my nisi is filed and hers isnt and shes started about 5 months ahead of me.. We keep joking about having a joint divorce party when its all over. Who'd have though it!

Lets hope we are all in a happier place in 12 months time

Firm but fair I hope (apart from the duvet cover!)

at the duvet cover. I dont hold grudges apart from dickhead twunt STBXH who is a lying cheating miserable pathetic scumbag All my friends are jealous of my duvet cover, its so pretty and they are not allowed anything too girly as their husbands wont let them

Im not girly girly normally, but it was so pretty :-) and it really brightens up the room and also my mood as well. Its funny how its the little things that make you feel better. Im creating more space in the bedroom all the time. Just need to get his chest of drawers out the way....... I dont want another man because I will have to give up half the wardrobe again!

I've put up a pin board in the living room, where one of his pictures used to hang and Ive put on it all mine and DD's party invitations (not that there are loads, lol), but it gives me something to look at and something to look forward to.

I need some new curtains, mine have a faded strip down the middle from the sun, so on the lookout for something cheap and cheerful (that doesnt clash with the flowery girly duvet cover, lol).

Taking down the 'family' pictures is wierd. I still have a couple up in my bedroom for the kids, but as I can't use them for target practice as they are behind glass I think I will just let the kids put them in their rooms.

skye, you sound great

the crying spells are all part of the process

just go with them, and keep moving forward x

I took down our wedding pics etc the day he moved out (bit of a statement to him, but also made my room feel like it was MINE not ours). I still have the odd one of him with the DCs around, as I don't want them to feel like he's been totally banished from the house!

When I can be arsed I will probably move them into the DCs' rooms rather than having them in the hall or MY (now!) office, as looking at his stupid smiley face makes me feel a bit nauseous

You have come a long way Skye, it just shows how resilient we can be when we try. Keep your head held high, keep looking forward instead of back and by this time next year you will be even further away from all the ups & downs, settled into your new life. Maybe we should organise an MN divorce party too?!

That's a good idea - lets invite Choco too!

Ooh Can I come?

Yes let's all meet when we have emerged like beautiful butterflies!

A MN party for all of us would be great! I wonder how we would all get along in RL? It's a bit like Internet dating lol.

Counselling went well today. We are trying to identify my character traits and my issues and how I can avoid taking them into my next relationship. How I need to find myself and be independent and not want to spend all my time with a new man.

I said I need somebody I can argue with next time lol a d she said - no, you need somebody that you can talk to about problems, and realise that confrontation does not have to become a big argument!

She said how would you feel if H ended up homeless, penniless and on his own. I said SATISFIED

A MN party for all of us would be great! I wonder how we would all get along in RL? It's a bit like Internet dating lol.

Counselling went well today. We are trying to identify my character traits and my issues and how I can avoid taking them into my next relationship. How I need to find myself and be independent and not want to spend all my time with a new man.

I said I need somebody I can argue with next time lol a d she said - no, you need somebody that you can talk to about problems, and realise that confrontation does not have to become a big argument!

She said how would you feel if H ended up homeless, penniless and on his own. I said SATISFIED

I bet none of us look anything like what we imagine either! We've all described what our bastard exes have said about us and made ourselves sound like unattractive and enormous, over-emotional hysterical wailing blobs, whereas in RL we are probably all lovely attractive women.

Skye, if my x ended up homeless and penniless I think part of me would be secretly smug, but I think even now my over-riding feeling for him is pity. I am so sad that I won't get to share my DCs futures with the only other person who could possibly love them like I do. He also has a future without the mother of his children and has also lost his lovely home and a supportive wife and the saddest part is he doesn't even seem to realise or care what this means. I just feel sorry for him.

Probably helps that he hasn't got someone else though, that must be the hardest thing to accept. However, you know that he will probably make all the same mistakes again, whereas you are learning and improving.

Yes, I did go on to say that the compassionate side of me would feel sorry for him , as I did love the man he was, and he will always be my daughters father.

If any of you I know "well" want to be Facebook friends as a first step to the date that's ok with me! Plus I'm bloody gorgeous aren't you?! PM me.

Ooh Facebook friends! I was going to offer that to somebody the other day but didnt know if it was crossing a line, lol. Mixing with RL! Scary stuff, lol.

Well it's put there now!! Lol

I'll add you and maybe you can pass my details on. x

Doing "but I think even now my over-riding feeling for him is pity. I am so sad that I won't get to share my DCs futures with the only other person who could possibly love them like I do. He also has a future without the mother of his children and has also lost his lovely home and a supportive wife and the saddest part is he doesn't even seem to realise or care what this means. I just feel sorry for him. " This is EXACTLY how I feel, how can they be so stupid to throw all this away? Even if they do now, it's all too late.x

That's how I feel. How could he just walk away from a 2 year old? He won't be seeing her for 2 weeks now. To go from a complete daddy's girl who demands cuddles in bed with daddy every morning & stories & milk with daddy every night to this? How can he live with himself? There's no going back now is there?

No Midwife. I could never forgive him for the night we told our kids he was leaving us. That broke my heart. The only tears I have left or are willing to spill are for my kids, not for him. He threw away everything.

A lot of these abandoned DDs seem to be Daddy's girls - I wonder if they somehow knew they weren't that secure with their Dads and had to work harder to get the attention they crave from their fathers

My H told our DD he was going to live somewhere else and she put a pair of pj's in a bag and tried to go with him

I will never forgive him, ever, for leaving her.

DD tonight is now saying that Daddy kissed OW and that you have to shut your eyes when you kiss somebody.... Its all coming out bit by bit.

Im pissed and have drunk 3 bottles of wine with my neighbour :-) She came round at 5pm for tea and left at 10.30pm pissed :-)

Please stop me from signing up properly to Match.com! Help!!!!!

On go on sign up! Why not? It's been 3 months & you're really strong now. Have a flirt & just remember alot of them talk bollocks but it'll do you good to be flattered. Plenty of fish or okcupid is free by the way!

Yes funny how the poor little DDs literally clinged onto their Daddies. True they must have sensed he would be off very easily.

My DD worshipped her daddy. He gave her breakfast every morning, he put her to bed every night, he got down on the floor and played with her and gave her piggy back rides and played with her in the garden. He took her to the shop every weekend to get the newspapers and to the park. He idolised her. He never thought he would have a child due to fertility issues, so he worshipped her completely.

When the neighbour kicked her H out in December, he said she was selfish as their youngest DD was only 4, same as our DD. he said then, the thought of our DD waking up every morning and her little face not seeing him, was just heartbreaking, that he couldnt bear for her to be upset like that. He said he could never ever leave his child.....

Fast forward 3 months later and he walked out ......

Madabout I always felt that the reason my DD was 'daddy's little princess' was actually something more akin to sexism. H treated her differently to the boys, was much kinder and more loving, said she even smelled nicer than them - he was always saying "girls are so much more x, y,z than boys" as if his experience of one girl qualified him to judge the entire gender.

I think looking back he's always been a bit misogynistic and the fact that he saw her as somehow 'different' was just another way of showing inequality to females. I'm sure the favouritism would have given way to stricter parenting and different boundaries in her teens so I'm glad he won't have such a major role in parenting any of them now and I can try to treat them all equally regardless of gender.

Doing - interesting perspective. I agree its not healthy bringing up girls to become helpless dependent princesses whose role in life is to sooth the male ego.

Skye - how heartbreaking. Interesting how its all coming out re the kissing. I don't want to worry you but the fertility thing and with OW's miscarriage, I now wonder if your H and OW will ever try and get custody of your DD.

God this is making me

I think it's very insightful what's been said about these little girls working hard (subconsciously) to make their dad's stay. Like they sensed love was conditional.

It's funny re the 'princess' thing. There was a thread on AIBU about this a few months ago (well it was about a mum saying her dd was a daddy's girl) and I said I find that whole 'daddy's little princess' uncomfortably sexist. I said my dd knows she's clever, sporty, unique..not somebody's cute little bundle of property to be 'protected' and praised for her looks. I got annhilated on that thread!! Was told I was not celebrating the little princess in all little girls etc and taking life too seriously.

I will NEVER ever understand how any parent can leave their child and go from seeing them every day to once or twice a month. Actually I know two parents - both mothers - who have chosen to live abroad and left some of their children behind. One is in Australia!! The other southern Europe. Even though I like both women and their situations are complicated, I just can't view them in the same way any more. It's like a chasm has opened between us. I say this as a FT working mum and am sure I've been judged behind my back about this.

I think that's why I'm taking the access thing so hard Proud, H was always a part-time dad and so I knew that seeing them for a couple of solid blocks of time each week would actually be more than he ever saw them when he lived here.

I honestly don't think it bothers him that he doesn't see them every day. If it was only every other weekend it might be different, but for him this seems to be just enough time with his DCs

Today is his day - he'd booked the weekend off as I'm going out tonight on a charity walk. He said he'd collect them at 5pm! So he's still got all day to himself to spend at the gym and will have them for a couple of hours before bed.

Doing & Proud - totally agree! I remember when STBX's DD (the ultimate princess) once came howling to daddy that my DD had said to her that she didn't like the film "The Little Princess" & because all little girls are their daddy's little princess that meant she didn't like her! FFS! I'm afraid that I'm a typical "health professional" & unless their arm is actually hanging off, DCs both boys & girls are given a quick rub better with a "come on now, it's ok" & no princessey pandering in sight. SD used to constantly be covered in plasters, eye patches, tubigrips & a one stage a walking stick!

Ewww at 'all little girls are their daddy's little princesses'. It's so depersonalising (is that a word?!) apart from anything else.

Doingit - it's astonishing isn't it? I can't get my head round it.

I'm sorry this is so hard for so many on this thread

Yes hard as it is that DD has to learn that daddy isn't here anymore in some ways it's a blessing that she will now be more robust & less princessey than SD.

Hi op! I haven't posted on your threads for a while and have just been catching up. Its taken ages!

One thing that stuck out at me it that you might benefit from reminding yourself that some things are beyond your control. If you accept that you can't control or change them you might find that you can distance yourself from them a bit and they might not bother you as much.

H just collected them and they were all super excited as we've been to RSPCA today to choose a cat! We bought all the bits we need and I'm collecting her on Monday

H was all "aaah that's lovely" but inside I could almost hear the cogs whirring ("so how much of MY money is being spent on this cat then? Food, vets bills/insurance, I bet it will be crapping everywhere and scratching all the furniture") and I had a little chuckle to myself that he doesn't get a say anymore!

Still didn't quite make up for the fact that my precious DCs have just walked out of the door, but I'm sure they will have a lovely time

You know him so well Doing!!

Doing- first thing my friend did after kicking out her H was get a fog because he had never allowed it.

Madabout- did actually discuss this with counsellor yesterday as I felt really bad for thinking it, that OW trying to steal my DD. What happened to OW was very tragic, she was full term , went into labour, after 24 hours labour they lost the heartbeat, emergency section but too late to save baby. We went to see them in the hospital and they were broken. Then I found out a month later that I was pregnant and the friendship faltered.

I felt really bad for thinking it but what if she is now taking to my DD and getting herself a ready made family counsellor said I'm not bad it's only human to think it.....

Poopoo- thought I'd driven you away lol. Yes, again counsellor trying to help me accept that I can't change what is beyond my control...

I've only just realised, that is why he was asking me today if my own bank account is set up yet - he can see the joint account funds dwindling by the day as I spend money on new summer dresses and cats before the reality of maintenance and tax credits kicks in

dog not fog, lol, stupid iphone! back on laptop now!

same friend did get 2 cats against her H's wishes when they were still together.... he sulked for a week, so she had to buy him a Wii to make up for it.....

What is he, 12?!

I know, its pathetic isnt it. He spent all his money on himself and his social life and she said he spoilt every family day out moaning about the cost of getting in somewhere, then the cost of food and icecreams etc. Now she is on her own she is so much better off both emotionally and financially.....

Sounds like mine, ruined our holiday last year moaning about the DCs wanting an ice cream after spending £2k on a villa + travelling costs to get there. The rest of our family took pity on them and asked if they were allowed to buy them one

He moaned about the food but wouldn't set foot in the supermarket to come and help choose stuff, just stayed back on his own while we all went shopping.

God its good to be out of that! But still want to punch him in the face when I see him....!

How awful for the OW, skye Whatever shit she's caused since then, that is a truly dreadful thing to happen. Her DH must wonder which way is up sometimes - it might explain why he seems so passive about her flagrantly going off with another bloke.

Daddy's girls, however, are never very close to their step-mothers in my experience. She might like her now but that will probably change dramatically if she comes to view her as a rival for your ex's affections.

trib - yes it was truly awful for them and I totally understood her decision to not want to see us or our DD after. We didnt see them for a good couple of years, although my H went to football with her H every now and then. We always acknowledged the birthday of their DD, which they appreciated. My H never knew OW that well, it was only after he gave her a lift a couple of times and they spent hours in the van together talking, that they suddenly became best friends. She broke down over the loss of her DD one day. It all seems to have stemmed from there and she says that my H can give her the emotional support that her H cant......... I do feel for her , but my H was never any good at emotionally supporting me....

Now she gets to spend every Sunday with my DD, after not seeing her much for years...

I suggested that counselling may be beneficial to her, but she said she went once and never went again. As it happened 5 years ago, her H doesnt want to discuss it any more, wants them to have another baby, but she put it off for 4 years to do a degree course through her job. She is 31, he is 45. He feels he is running out of time, but she is so much younger.

This is one of the reasons that I found it so hard initially to believe that anything was going on, as I couldnt believe that they would use that as a reason to excuse their newfound closeness.....

Poopoo- thought I'd driven you away lol. Yes, again counsellor trying to help me accept that I can't change what is beyond my control...

So that's means i am actually talking sense?! [faints in shock]

Btw i thought the frog sounded more fun.

Hello poopoo! Long time no see! Doing it - punch the fucker! Skye - awful for OW but no excuse to pinch someone else's DH!

Trib - I learnt about daddy's girls & step mothers the hard way! SD made it her mission to cause conflict between stbxh & my DD & she succeeded but actually - its great not to have to put up with her anymore!!

In fairness, midwife, given the personality transplant your ex had after the wedding, it wouldn't surprise me to find out she was encouraged to cause conflict. Poor girl - having that twunt for a father if nothing else.

poopoo, it would appear so, lol. She keeps saying to me, well that is out of your control, or, that is nothing to do with you now.

I wont see her for a fortnight due to being on holiday next week, but I am looking forward to the next session. She says that I am doing so well and that we really need to focus on me now and what I want out of future relationships and to admit my faults and work on them. So I admit that I can be lazy, that I can be stressy and stuff that she can help me with. and like she says, none of these things are reasons for him to have walked out.

I need to accept that he detached from me, attached to her and then magnified all the problems so that he could leave by putting all the guilt on to me.

And be prepared so that if he comes back at any point when dumped by OW, that I am strong enough to deal with that too....

Midwife. Hi! It took me so long to catch up with this thread and even then i was skim reading. I lost it for a while. (the thread, not my sanity, although . . . ?)

If they are kissing, holding hands and cuddling in front of your DD are you strong enough for if she dumps her H and sets up with yours?

So, sky, how about each time you get stressed about what he is doing or not doing or she's doing, you write it down.

Next to it you write your feelings regarding it. Such as . . .

"i feel frustrated and angry about that".

Next to that you write a positive thought that will help you move forward. Such as . . .

"this does not concern me"
"that was his choice"
"it does not matter to me what he thinks of me"

etc. Repeat. Stop writing the negative feeling just the positive ones. Eventually they will place the negative thought and it becomes automatic to think the positive thing.

Hope that makes sense.

ooh that's a great idea, poo

I have a chart thing to fill in, about feelings, Core feelings and racket feelings. She has given me some stuff to read about feelings and emotions and unhelpful thinking habits.

she said that im not pessimistic, but I think too much. so I think that H is seeing OW and in my head I have already got them living together and playing Happy Families with my daughter. But like Xales says above, i do need to face up to these things that may happen!

I dont think I can stop my DD from seeing OW, so not a lot I can do about it. If it does all come out, I would feel vindicated in a way, as my H's family will then know the truth, that I have been saying all along that there is OW. They are all like "oh no, he's not like that, he would never do that, blah blah blah"

I would also want to smack their faces in..

So you write down the thought
"i think they will move in together"

how you feel about that such as
"devastated he did this to us, how could he etc"

moving on thought
"this is no longer my business. I don't case what he does."

It takes practice.

Care!

I find that once the moving on/positive thought has been written, it helps to reread it, close your eyes and take a few deep breaths.

thanks poopoo, that does make sense. its the moving on bit that I need to focus on now, thats where we are going in future,

dont look back, you're not going that way....

Such a tragic story re OW;s baby Still it does not excuse her behaviour.

<<puts on smug hat>>

It seems it wouldn't have been in your best interests to have acted on advice to ditch your counsellor after your first session, skye.

no, counsellor admitted that in the first session she crossed the line and thought from personal rather than a professional point of view and advised me like she would her daughter re the divorce. She didnt think I was ready for divorce and that it was too soon because we could reconcile, but I needed her to see that reconciliation was no longer an option. Once she realised where I was coming from, she was totally different and focussed on the future and where to go.

She said what are my needs now, what do I need from a relationship, how can I acheive my needs without losing my identity, or without them losing theirs.

I gave her another chance with an open mind and I was glad I did, especially when she admitted she hadnt understood me, but now she does. Im hoping that we get more than the 6 sessions, because I think I need them to discuss everything fully. She said you have to commit to six sessions but it may be more or less, its as long as it takes really.

I also touched on frustration with my daughter for her wilful behaviour, and not wanting to shout at her, but not knowing how to deal with her at times. I remember my childhood as my dad shouting at me and my mum and dad falling out all the time. I dont want my daughter to be afraid of me, like I was afraid of my dad.. She said its not anger management, but a coping strategy like walking away etc that we need to look at, although i do that already.

You said of him: 'I want, I get' (whereas you required saving)
really bad social skills
doing stuff w OW he wouldn't do at home

There is such a pattern to these types of men, isn't there? I think that helps to see it really is them - and then work out what it is in us, that recognised them and chose them (and never make the same mistake again!)

Nail on the head abitwobbly! How can we change to learn to choose better next time? I have realised I choose men who are "unavailable" emotionally & who in the first exciting flush of the relationship of course are into me but once they have committed they withdraw. I chase, they withdraw more, I give up, they give me a glimpse of the old them to keep me in love & then they withdraw again. How do we break the cycle & have a healthy relationship next time?

Its good that the counsellor admitted that the first session was badly handled and that she did cross a line in offering her personal opinion.

yes, I think I was so upset, she went all maternal on me and didnt appreciate what I was saying. I would have given anything to have saved the relationship (as you all know and were totally sick of me, lol), so I needed her support in moving on not in trying to save it and once she realised that, she has been fab.

My STBXH is definitely emotionally unavailable. i likened him to a puppydog. When I first met him, he would do anything he could to please me and make me happy, because he wanted the approval because he has such low self esteem and low self confidence. He would be cuddly and hand holding etc, but couldnt deal with other emotions such as sadness or anger.

Now the OW is getting the puppydog treatment, need help with your iphone, Ill be right there, let me buy you pictures for your birthday because you really want them, of course Ill put them on the wall for you, spend the day with me on your birthday, let me sponsor your netball team and come and watch you every week...... anything he can to make her happy. So she is lapping up the attention.

BUT - he is no longer my concern, he is no longer my responsibility....

Your counsellor sounds reassuringly human unlike some I know

You've said that you use 'walking away' from your dd as a 'coping strategy'. Your dd's df has walked away from her and my concern is that you may be reinforcing the message that she must behave in a compliant manner if she doesn't want to be 'walked away from'.

At this paticular time in her development, 'walking away' would not seem to be an appropriate coping strategy and I would suggest that you devote part of your next session to the way in which you interact with your little dd when she behaves in what you consider to be a 'wilful' manner.

Its mainly when Im trying to put her to bed, she wont put on her pyjamas, she wont stop jumping on the bed, she wont brush her teeth, she throws all her toys and clothes onto the floor. so I walk away rather than scream at her..........

This is when she needs the most reassurance that you won't walk away from her.

Does she not want to go to bed because she thinks she may be missing out on something? Does she get overtired? Or is that you're anxious to get her into bed as quickly as possible so that you can have some 'me' time?

What bribes distraction techniques do you use to get her undressed, into pjs, teeth cleaned, and into bed with the minimum of fuss?

Have you tried toys tidied away and pjs on before supper, a period of quiet time with you before teethcleaning rewarded by a brief bouncing session (but only if she asks/starts jumping) before a bedtime story?

Ive tried pj's on and watch a bit of tv before bed cuddling up on the sofa. I try to get her into bed at 7.30pm, but its usually 8pm and gone before I can get her there. Then she will only go to bed, once Ive walked away, shes got upset and I go back again.. Then she calls me in several times to put blankets back on etc as she keeps getting out of bed.

Im trying so hard not to shout at her as I want her to feel loved and secure with me, but its so difficult at times I get so frustrated with her and I dont want to smack her as its not right. (I did smack her back along as a last resort, but she started to hit me all the time, so I stopped doing it......)

Sometimes shes still awake at 9pm and gone..

Skye someone recommended 1-2-3 Magic to us and it has been a revelation. Maybe worth looking into.

Yes I have 1-2-3 Magic - its amazing!!

Also the family support worker at the children's centre I do my clinic at gave me a brilliant tip for bedtime shenanigans. Put her to bed, same routine & time every night (7pm for my DD but she's only 2) & after story & tuck in say goodnight, kiss & hug & then go out & shut the door. Then sit on the floor outside her door with your back to it. Every time she opens door pick her up silently (nerves of steel required here) & put her back & repeat & repeat & repeat for as many hours as necessary. 2nd night repeat. 3rd night she will give up (unless she's my dd & it takes a week!) The fact you are outside is a reassuring presence & stops her coming out while she also knows you're not off having "fun" downstairs. It worked for me!

just found the book on amazon, its about £11. is it really very good? How does it work?

Your dd is dealing with a lot of profound changes at the moment; you have been very upset, and so she has been too. I suspect she is acting up because she is insecure. I think that your walking away may exacerbate that. Could you put a chair in her room where she can see you, and, while cutting interaction with her when she's acting up, still be within sight, so she knows you're going nowhere? Then, when she's finished chucking stuff around or jumping about or whatever, you say calmly "now, tidy up" or "back into bed" etc, but no more interaction. Read a magazine or book, or plug in earphones and listen to calming music. When she's tidied up or got back into bed or whatever it is you want her to do, then give her a big hug, kiss, cuddle and continue with routine.

It's about on the one hand giving them more attention in some ways ie quality time & having fun together but when they misbehave you count 1 as a warning, then 2 if they don't stop & then if you get to 3 they have "time out" in another room for as many minutes as their age. Afterwards you go & get them, give them a cuddle & it's over - no going over it again & again.

I try and spend time with her, like when twunt brings her back tonight, I will talk to her about her day and then get her changed for bed and watch tv for half an hour, just to have some quiet cuddles with her, but she never wants to go to bed..

Skye they might have it at your local library? It's a REALLY good system, and it helps you keep your cool. Definitely worth looking into.
It helped me understand the different between behaviours I want him to STOP, and behaviours I want him to START.

So : DS, STOP jumping on the sofa! Jump on the floor!
[Ds Jumps]
Me: ONE!
[DS looks at me. Jumps.]
Me: TWO!
[DS grins/screams, jumps]
Me: THREE! Okay, take a break. [at this point I bodily pick up a howling child and put him in his bedroom for 2 minutes (he's nearly 2). I sit outside his bedroom door for this period, breathing deeply/reading the paper, depending on how trying the day has been!]
after 2 minutes I open the door and say: Do you want to do a puzzle/whatever we were doing before the sofa jumping started. No "Are you going to be a good boy now?" or any reference at all to what happened. The 'timeout' isn't a punishment exactly, it's to stop the behaviour I want him to stop, and stop the feedback loop of me saying "no!" and him doing it and loving the attention.

That's how things were for the first week or so. Now it's more like this:
So : DS, STOP jumping on the sofa! Jump on the floor!
[Ds Jumps]
Me: ONE!
[DS looks at me. Jumps.]
Me: TWO!
[DS looks at me. Sit down. Grins. Continues whatever he was doing.]

Ideally, he'd stop at ONE but we're getting there. You have to be consistent, every time you hit THREE it's into his bedroom/whatever. But it does work.

For 'start' behaviour it's a bit harder, you can't count for things you want them to start doing (brush teeth, pick up toys) so you use rewards like a sticker chart. DS is a bit young to understand that kind of thing but it's just starting now. We read a lot of stories in which the characters have a bath, brush their teeth, put on PJs and get into bed, then have a story, then go to sleep - which is his routine. We do a LOT of reinforcement about what step is coming next "ok, DS, ten more minutes of blocks and then it's bathtime" or "right, out of the bath so we can brush your teeth!" or "come on, Pajamas on so we can have a story!".

When the last book is done we tuck him in and close the bedroom door, and I did exactly what midwife suggests - sat outside his bedroom door and returned him to bed every time he got out of it, without comment and without giving him lots of attention. After a while I just sat outside the door (reading a book) saying "Bed! Lie DOWN!" every time I heard him get up! And that meant that he fell asleep knowing I was 'there' - and then I moved a bit further away from his door as the days went by. Now I sometimes yell from the kitchen "BED!" [pause] "Lie DOWN!" and that's about it! It has taken about a month to get him to climb into his bed and go to sleep without one of us there, but considering he fed to sleep until 5 months ago, I feel like it's big progress!

Hope some of this helps. I do think 123 is worth reading, it's so reassuring and So effective, right up till they're 12, apparently. Since you're doing this alone, you can be 'my way or the highway' about things, so you may as well have a plan. I think children really like having knowable, understandable boundaries in place, too. I was afraid of my Dad, he shouted and you never knew when he was going to totally blow his top over a tiny thing. If he'd said "stop it. ONE!" I'd have known how far to push it and what would happen if I did - or not to push it at all!

so after a bit of a texting with twunt this morning - my fault as I returned an ornament with a note attached to it, so he sent me a text saying it was uncalled for....(I know I know , shoot me again)... but it became productive texting as we talked about the divorce and trying to save solicitors fees etc, and he says he wont be awkward about anything..

I said you havent had DD overnight once since you moved out and he said he cant afford his own place because of the solicitors fees for the divorce...... He also apologised for hurting me, he never meant for me to feel like a horrible person, he did love me but his feelings changed over time, says he wishes me all the best and that he wants me to be happy...... Twunt! I text back to say we need to sort everything out asap, Im looking forward to moving on and meeting somebody else.

Anyway, this afternoon he has text to say that he has the opportunity to have DD at his place overnight next Saturday, so he will pick her up at 10am on Saturday and bring her back at 6pm on Sunday. He wants to take her to a local festival/fete thing.

I will be sad to lose her for a whole weekend, but Im trying to see it as positive and freedom for me! I can go to the pub and have a lie-on on Sunday!

What did the note say?

Go on Skye!!

The Eeyore ornament said "I love you because you're you". My note said "this obviously wasn't true was it"..., stupid I know but I wanted to hurt him and I did...,

But like I said the texting did lead to us actually discussing some stuff and him having her overnight next week..

I really ought to finish packing for my holiday, this is the least organised I have ever been for a holiday

Skye, why why why are you still engaging in - indeed initiating - this pathetic, petty interaction with him?

Madness. You could discuss Dd etc with him simply, face to face, by phone, text or email, without the drama.

Re DD, try to be patient. my 4yo hates sleeping alone, feels insecure etc and often plays up at bedtime, during teeth cleaning etc. Seems like a challenge with lots of DC that size, even if no break-up situation. didn't want to do the supernanny style stuff so have lots of routine, books, but not after 7.30 and often stay in her room with her while she goes to sleep, just reading to myself etc. quite a soft approach I guess.

That's good he's having DD overnight, but 6pm is too late back IMO.

Twunt sent £25 to my bank account today for spending money for DD. didn't reply. Makes up for everything doesn't it, £25!!

Had an awful day crying thinking about having a holiday about him but doing ok, had a couple glasses of wine and DD is having a whale of a time at the Sid and Lizzie show

Sorry it was a bad day, the holiday will be OK, you're doing a good thing for dd and sometimes things go well when you have low expectations!

He's the one who's missing out.

He is the one who is missing out. We have been to the fun pool and had lots if fun but I did end up in tears again over him choosing not to be with her and the dad holiday time she is missing out on. She is also very very wilful and I struggle to deal with her on my own..!!

She kept jumping out of the pool and running off and I just can't keep up with her and she refused to come back and she tried getting getting in the rapids on her own. She has armbands on but can't swim!

I want to text him and say- you stupid arsehole, your daughter is on holiday having fun and you choose not to be part of it. You dont know what you're missing! You miserable pathetic twunt. Enjoy your week abroad with your genuine friends, don't give your daughter a second thought.

Don't worry, I'm not going to!!! I resisted last night when drunk!

She kept jumping out of the pool and running off and I just can't keep up with her and she refused to come back and she tried getting getting in the rapids on her own. She has armbands on but can't swim!

Be grateful you have a child with character not a docile boring lump. Sorry not helpful.

I think the 1 2 3 thing here would work well too. First time she does a runner to the rapids tell her that is the first time and she must not do that again as it is dangerous. Second time she does a runner tell her that is the second time and if she does that again you leave. If she does it a third time, tell her that is the third time and go. Stick to your guns.

It will be hard to start, temper etc however if you do not back down eventually she will realise that you are totally serious and will stop.

You can use that for any thing really.

I like that you are posting what you want to text on here. Keep it up it is good for you to get it out.

I sympathise re wilful daughter. Mine is/was a real handful (I had a long thread about it on AIBU). Agree with Xales re three strikes - or any similar method that means she knows where she stands and what to expect.

Yes your stbxh is a twunt for missing out on this.

You are doing so well. Sorry it's still so painful for you.