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how to move on to possible reconciliation while ignoring the elephant in the room..

(283 Posts)
skyebluesapphire Wed 02-May-12 13:39:36

I have posted on a different thread in a different name about the fact my husband walked out on me..... he didnt tell me what was wrong, bottled everything up til he walked out, he is living elsewhere, calling this a temporary separation while we work out if it really is it, although he walked out saying that it was over... has since agreed to go out with me, just the two of us to see if there is anything left. we have been communicating quite well by text, but if we get anywhere near discussing issues, he backs off, saying that there is no point in going over everything as we keep saying the same stuff over. I wrote him a long letter detailing how I think everything went downhill, stress, illness etc, which he has read over several times and is writing a reply. I am hoping that communicating in this way takes the pressure off him a bit.

We are going out at the weekend, and I know that I need to stay happy and positive about this now and on the day, or there will be no point in going..

my concern now that I am really struggling with, is this... How the hell can we move on if he wont discuss the problems... It is very difficult for me to be nice and happy etc when he has walked out on me and 4 year old daughter. But obviously he is not going to want to spend time with sad moody cow, which will only reinforce him thinking he has made the right decision. So I need to be sweetness and light and remind him of the person he fell in love with, so he can work out how he really feels about me. D

I am hoping that it will go something like this, have a few dates, reconnect on some level, spend more time together, then discuss issues, more than half of which are already resolved, so we can move on and hopefully reconcile? We just have to ignore the sodding large elephant in the middle of the room for the moment??

AARRGGHH!!!

PurplePidjin Wed 02-May-12 13:42:52

He's fucked up, he's hurt you, he's confused your daughter - move on, stay strong and thank fuck for a lucky escape!

CogitoErgoSometimes Wed 02-May-12 13:46:48

I wouldn't waste your time tbh. His heart isn't in it. You're full of hope and prepared to change your behaviour, trying to second-guess how he's feeling, even making excuses for him like 'pressure'. You're getting nowhere and I wouldn't lower myself any more if I were you. Why should you dance and kow-tow for him while he takes his time selfishly working out how he feels? It sounds less like reconciliation and more like capitulation on your part.

He knows where you are. He knows who you are. He knows you have a child. If he wants to 'reconnect' it has to be wholeheartedly and completely... not this hot/cold not-sure-if-I-can-be-bothered crap you've currently got. Sorry to be so blunt.

CharlieUniformNovemberTango Wed 02-May-12 13:52:30

I would say that you can't go out with him until he has been honest with you about what I going on.

There really isn't any point in trying to plaster a smile on your face if he cares so little about your feelings in all of this.

How can you move on if you've no idea what you're trying to leve behind?

He knows where you are. Make it clear nothing further can be done until he's faced up to what he's done and what you need him to do now.

At the very least you deserve an explanation. And you deserve that need to be taken into consideration.

MissFaversham Wed 02-May-12 13:52:48

If I were you OP I'd tell him that there would be no contact until he decided whether or not he wanted to discuss issues. Why on earth do you want go out with him and pretend nothing is wrong?

Put your big girl pants on here and locate your self respect button.

(Not meaning to be harsh but OP come on now)

PurplePidjin Wed 02-May-12 13:53:02

Cogito, you think you were blunt <has reread own post blush>

In case I wasn't clear enough, op, this is his fault. Therefore, you should accept nothing less than grovelling abatement where he began you to allow him back.

Anything less and he's showing you massive disrespect.

daffydowndilly Wed 02-May-12 13:54:49

You need to be sweetness and light, and he can do what he likes? You need to be kinder and truer to yourself. Make him work a little for the relationship. What have you got to lose. You are worth more than being a puppet for him to play with. He might even respect you more for it.

To be honest, if this was my situation, I would tell him I needed him to have space for as long as it takes for him to finally decide whether he wants to be part of your family or not (that way he could have his midlife crisis/affair/get treatment for his depression... whatever is going on without it affecting me).

And I would spend that time, rebuilding my own life and self-esteem and independence, and concentrate on putting that energy into myself and my children (who frankly would deserve my love and attention far more than the man that walked out on us). And then if nothing happened, well what would have been lost? Chances are if he has walked once, what is to stop him doing it again. Especially if you make it all too easy for him.

MrsMcEnroe Wed 02-May-12 14:00:51

OP I have read your other thread.

You've left some very pertinent facts out of this thread, and I understand why - it hurts, and you're in denial.

Stop writing him letters. Stop trying to change your own behaviour - you're not at fault here.

He has moved out and, although you won't accept it - and I won't post the evidence here because you obviously don't want to have it in black and white on this thread - he has moved on. I am so sorry, but you need to accept this and you need to move on too.

izzyizin Wed 02-May-12 14:04:08

Are you the OP whose h took himself off to live in the home of a woman he frequently texted in the cause of allegedly giving her the support that was lacking from her dh after a stillbirth?

If so, or if not, forget about winning him back, honey. You're best advised to go no contact except when making arrangements for him to see dd - outside of the marital home - and wait to see if he attempts to win you back.

Any attempt to make an elephant disappear by can only be an illusion at best and they are far too large to sweep under carpets.

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 02-May-12 14:29:19

He has checked out and is likely to be emotionally attached to someone else.

He is in his own fantasy/lust/infatuation fuelled bubble.

No matter how sweet and lovely you are on the "date" he will find things to criticise - this is how they justify their behaviour.

The date is so that they can look like the good guy who tried everything but it didn't work.

You have to accept that he has detached and there is nothing you can do except move on sad

NettleTea Wed 02-May-12 14:38:22

he sounds really selfish tbh.
Family life IS full of responsibilities and isnt all sweetness and light all the times.
Seems like he wants his cake and to eat it - wants to check out of the responsibility and be free to come and go as he likes ( he may well be ssing other people too, especially if you are not actually together) but wants to go out with you and for you to pretend to be happy so he cant play boyfriend/girlfriend without actually having to grow up and face the fact he has hurt you badly.
What a prick.

Fooso Wed 02-May-12 14:49:46

I think it's sad that you feel you have to be "sweetness and light" with someone who you are married to to remind them of what they fell in love with - marriage is about loving someone warts and all. If he can't appreciate how low you must be feeling due to his actions and love you for trying to your hardest to keep him - then he just isn't worth it and he doesn't deserve you.

MajorB Wed 02-May-12 15:46:44

I think there's a bit more going on than you've put in your OP, but...

What you have to remember is that dates are like interviews, yes it's important to present your best side, BUT you are also trying to work out if the "job" is right for you. There's no point doing a wonderful interview and getting offered the job if the pay is £1 an hour, and you were looking for an annual salary of £100k.

In short, you need to work out what your requirements are prior to this date, and you need to work out your worth. Go looking fabulous and paint a smile on your face, but don't be afraid to state what you need to make this relationship work for you, and if the offer on the table isn't good enough, then walk away - never settle, it doesn't make anyone happy in the long run.

Hope it goes well and you get what you want: whatever that may be.

MrsGypsy Wed 02-May-12 16:01:10

I didn't read your other post, but what I read here is that in order to have a chance at winning back your DH you have to change into some beguiling, enchanting, foxy courtesan so that he can see what a big mistake he's made and come back to you.

This man has checked out. The man you married no longer exists, or just never did. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but you cannot snare him back. He will never want to talk about deeper issues, because he has no intention of returning. You can turn yourself inside out and upside down, and beg him, but it won't end well.

Take back control. YOU give HIM the ultimatum - either he writes that letter to you by xxx date, or agrees to talk to you on yyy date or there is no contact, other than visitation by him for your DD. End of.

As MissFaversham puts it so eloquently, put your big girl pants on. It's time.

izzyizin Wed 02-May-12 16:02:05

You do realise that everything you say to him and the way you behave to him is being analysed/undermined by the ow?

If you prance around being sweetness and light with him at the weekend, she'll doubtless be telling him that you're only behaving in this way to lure him back to the marital home wherein he will become downtrodden frustrated and unhappy again.

I seem to recall that in your last post you made reference to the fact that he had begun to criticise the ow & her h in a similar manner to how he had once disparaged them.

If this is the case, right now is your ideal opportunity to swing the balance of power in your favour.

Superglue your balls back on and tell him that you've changed your mind about seeing him this weekend. Say that, after having giving it plenty of thought, you can see that there's no point in flogging a dead horse and you are better off apart.

Don't write or text; convey this message in a phone conversation and, when you tell him that the weekend's off, say that of course he won't mind being cancelled out as you know he's only going through the motions in agreeing to 'date' you and you feel it's time for you to go out with men who actively want to date you - let him come to the conclusion that the reason you're cancelling is that you've had a better offer.

Cease any further communication with him on the subject of your relatonship. Be bright, breezy, and matter of fact when you are making arrangements for his contact with dd and make it clear that, as far as you're concerned, your marriage is over and you're looking to move on.

If you follow this advice and cut him off if he tries to raise the subject of your relationship, I'll give it 2 weeks tops before he starts making overtures about a possible reconciliation.

Mumsyblouse Wed 02-May-12 19:13:56

This is the worst possible strategy to win him back although he doesn't seem that much of a prize

Basically it's akin to begging, and he has all the power and control here. I think given his nearly 2000 texts to another woman in one month, the chances that he'll be won over by this strategy is zero and you will feel awful. Even if he wasn't sleeping with her, he was mentally elsewhere and this won't lure him back.

Of course you can't act all light and happy and sweet and cheerful, he left you and your child. You are expecting too much of yourself, and it won't work anyway.

You've had some great advice about this, I really really feel for you, I hope it works out ok.

skyebluesapphire Wed 02-May-12 19:26:39

He is here now, I offered him tea again, it's so hard playing happy families when we aren't one. My daughter is now looking at photos and saying that was taken when you were still here daddy... It hurts him but he deserves it. I am struggling to be nice when I just want to shout YOU BASTARD YOU WALKED OUT ON US!

I didn't put details of other thread as I do not think there is anything going on and I am trying to look at this issue of him not talking... And how can we ever move on if he won't talk.... i need to see what he writes in his letter now before we can go in any direction.

Dozer Wed 02-May-12 19:39:57

not a good idea to start new thread looking for things you want to hear sad

Good that you're finding the anger.

Playing the perfect, forgiving wife, lover, counsellor, friend will drive you nuts. If keeping a man means using all your energy catering to and worrying about his whims, suppressing emotions and denying his horrible actions, he's not worth it.

Really think you need to cease constant communication with him.

Dozer Wed 02-May-12 19:40:40

Don't bloody offer him tea, argh!

He has left you, why should he be fed?

Dozer Wed 02-May-12 19:42:38

The issue isn't that he isn't talking, it's that despite pressure from you he clearly doesn't want to be in the relationship right now.

<even if we avoid elephant in room of the OW>

izzyizin Wed 02-May-12 19:54:00

Why are you catering to/for him? If he wants to see dd he can become a MaccyD's dad and collect her and return her from/to your doorstep - he doesn't get to come in and you certainly shouldn't let him get his feet back under the table for tea or any other refreshment/meal.

No more Mrs Nice Gal ... he made the choice to leave you and, except for communications relating to dd, you now need to hang him out to dry cut all contact with him so that he can stew in his own juice become as thoroughly disenchanted by his set up with the ow as he professed himself to be with your marriage - and that ain't gonna happen if you keep on dancing attendance on him and continue to let him have a foot in both camps.

Give him a dose of tough love and I have no doubt that he'll start recalling all of good things he had with you and dd. When he starts making noises about taking you out/getting back together, etc, that's when you start to play hardball with his head teach him that you're not a pushover woman whose affections he can easily trife with.

2 weeks, honey. That's all it'll take for him to start seeing the light which willl lead him back to you.

Personally speaking, as I wouldn't want any more to do with such a selfish and self-centred man, I'd make sure there's a power cut.

izzyizin Wed 02-May-12 19:55:40

And, btw, return his letter to sender.

NicNocJnr Wed 02-May-12 19:56:26

He doesn't want to be in the relationship, maybe he thought he found something ''better'' maybe not but he wants to keep a foot in the door in case he ends up being lonely or uncomfortable and wants his home comforts back. He walked out on you and your 4 year old daughter expecting you to deal with it and keep the bed warm for him whenever and if he might deign to return. He's behaved wrongly regardless of his reasons and he refuses to make the moves required for a reconciliation as a couple and do the hard, hurtful work but is happy to take the nice times and watch you positively leaking self respect like oil, beg him for more and making sure he feels good and his indiscretions not mentioned. Nope. It can only ever be up to you as to stay or go but it's our duty of parents to model the behaviour we want for our children - I'd pitch one if my daughter told me she was trying to remember to be happy and change herself like this. Also, it takes two to value and save a marriage.

^^ that is how I read this op, then I twigged and had a re-read of the old one. My opions of this guys matched even before I realised it was the same guy so even without the 'extra' infor his behaviour was sad.

MrsMcEnroe Wed 02-May-12 20:11:12

Spot-on posts from NicNocJnr and and izzyizin there. OP, please listen to them!

Charbon Wed 02-May-12 20:20:13

This is a truly disastrous strategy.

Be careful what you wish for OP.

Let's just imagine for a nano-second that it works. That your husband decides to come back home.

What then? You ignore that he's been having an affair? You ignore that he won't talk about why he left and the perceived problems he's got staying in this marriage?

Do you carry on trying to be superwife in case he leaves you again?

Will he respect you? Will you respect yourself?

The reason he left is staring you in the face, but despite what people are saying about 1000s of texts to another woman, you don't want to believe it. Of course he won't discuss anything with you, because he's got nothing to say apart from the real reason he left and he won't tell you that.

The best way of dealing with this is to withdraw and insist he picks up your child and takes her out. He shouldn't be allowed to play happy families at home because it's cruel to your daughter to see her daddy act like normal in her home surroundings and then go again. She sounds very distressed and although you seem to take some comfort in what she said to him, my heart went out to her and not you, because you and he allowed that situation to happen.

If he's so wonderful that you're prepared to lose all your self-respect chasing after him and allowing him to hurt your daughter unnecessarily, the sad fact is that he won't want a woman like that. He'll want someone with some backbone and a sense of her own worth.

NicNocJnr Wed 02-May-12 21:26:58

Charbon has laid it out flat - 100% agree.

Op regardless of how this plays out it will hurt.
The question is do you want to hurt fast or do you want to hurt slowly, over years. Do you want to be able to move on and your dd to move on while she is still young enough to not form her own conclusions or will this drag on and be replayed until H decides to quit again?

Yes if you take marriage vows you are required to take them seriously, more seriously than some, but it is made of two equal parts, to sets of responsibility - no-one can bail out all the water in a sinking boat if the one at the other end is making holes. You should feel your conscience is clear as regards your commitment to your vows. Now work on your commitment to yourself and dd.

AnyFucker Wed 02-May-12 21:35:04

hello again love, I agree 100% with everything said so far

don't turn into a Stepford Wife to try and entice him back, it demeans you, and his respect for you will descend even further than it already has

if you must have him back (I wouldn't) then you must do what izzy says, and make sure it is on your terms

unfortunately, I see you are pushing yourself very hard to adopt the "head in the sand" approach, and it will do you no favours at all sad

skyebluesapphire Thu 03-May-12 21:34:05

I am trying to maintain radio silence at the moment, nothing on facebook, no texting etc. I did give in and text him this morning, but got a very cool response from him.

I ended up sobbing my heart out today which I havent done for a few days. I do honestly believe that there is nothing going on with OW. I know it looks bad, but I think the furthest it has gone is that he has formed some sort of emotional attachment. I know that isnt good, but it is something we can overcome if he comes out of it again which he will do as the halo slips and the pedestal becomes rusty..... He has been extremely stressed out and ill and that can do strange things to people.

I want to save my marriage if at all possible. Its nearly 4 weeks now since he left and I didnt think I could get through 1 week without him, so I am surviving and will continue to survive, whatever the outcome of this may be. I want my daughter to grow up with her father around if that is possible. He went saying that was definitely it, but has already changed his mind and considering if the marriage can work... I dont know if it can, but only following the path will tell...

Charbon Thu 03-May-12 21:39:22

What is it that you wanted from this thread then Skye?

Every post you've had disagrees with the actions that you're taking and none of us know one another. Why do you think so many people think the same thing?

AnyFucker Thu 03-May-12 22:55:01

what path is that then ?

his path ?

why would you follow someone else ? He doesn't have your best interests, nor your dd's, at heart

what excuses are you making for his appallling treatment of you ?

cenicienta Thu 03-May-12 23:27:15

OP the issue here isn't whether he is or isn't having an affair!

The issue is that the course of action you are choosing to take will lead to you losing every ounce of dignity and self worth! He is treating you appallingly and you are rewarding him for it with dates and letters and tea...

As has been said a million times, the only way to get him to want to come back is to tell him you've decided it's over and move on (though personally I think you desErve far better)

Did you honestly think that even without you mentioning the thousand plus texts going back and forwards between him and OW, that ANYONE would agree with your proposed course of action!

If you don't want to listen to brilliant advice, why bother posting at all? confused

Charbon Thu 03-May-12 23:38:33

Agree with AF and Cenicienta. The affair aspect is only relevant in that it's probably the reason he left, but it's sheer madness to behave this way with a partner who has walked out and won't discuss the issues. It's actually an act of sabotage to the relationship, but more importantly to the OP herself.

NicNocJnr Thu 03-May-12 23:40:20

This makes me really sad.

At the end of the day OP it boils down to the fact that you are clinging on to an idea of life and reality that isn't true. I also think you would be wise to consider why people here that have had deep and involved struggles with mental health problems are scornful of your use of that as rationalisation of his behaviour using that as an excuse. Personally I feel that's a bit insulting to me and demeaning to my hardwork and all the people that work hard and have to face the stereotypes - MH isn't carte blanche to be an enus. People that use it as a free pass do untold harm to the people that are left with the results of that and are avoided because they must be an ass.

Anyway - if you wont take responsibility for yourself and recognise your right to self determination then fine. Whatever happens you will justify it to yourself. I hope you never have to justify it to your daughter because this is replayed during her most vulnerable years and does catastrophic damage to her self-worth and esteem. No matter what you say, you haven't swayed the audience. Also you can't say 'he isn't hving an affair' and expect us all to turn on a sixpence and say oh well, that's all ok then because that isn't the behaviour we're commenting on here.

I'm sorry for you. But, I can't help you.

skyebluesapphire Fri 04-May-12 10:15:54

At the end of the day I am trying to save my marriage if I can. My husband was ill before Christmas with a chest infection, cracked ribs and was almost hospitalised with a gallbladder infection. Add to this the stress of his work. I was extremely stressed around this time due to my job which always peaks in January then goes quiet again. All I am saying is that all these things contributed to him feeling very ill and low and deciding in his own head that the marriage wasnt working. I am not trying to insult anybody with MH issues.

If there is any way of saving my marriage then that is what I want to do. You are supposed to support each other in a marriage and we went through a rough patch. I know that he didnt support me, but I didnt support him either as we were both so stressed and frustrated with life at the time, that we didnt see what it was doing to our marriage. It may well be that the marriage is over for good, but as I posted earlier, my husband's attitude to that is already changing after being away for almost 4 weeks.

I posted here for some help and advice on how to deal with my husband who wont talk to me and how to get through a date with him which is supposed to remind us why we got together, not rehash all the bad stuff which we can talk about later on when he is ready. But he is already starting to open up more when texting me. Men are not very good at talking and if thats the way he wants to communicate then its fine by me, as its better than nothing.

I sincerely believe that he is not having an affair, like I said, it may be an emotional attachment, but that can be dealt with and doesnt have to mean the end.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 04-May-12 10:34:26

If you've decided that you're willing to give him yet another chance then you have to be extremely strong and uncompromising in what you want out of the situation. Blaming yourself and making excuses for him are not the way forward.

You are supporting him by giving him a second chance. His behaviour, reluctance to talk or any other flaw in his character are not your responsibility. You will not get his respect or compliance by being weak, conciliatory or tolerant. You will only destroy whatever self-respect you have left and he will - quite understandably - regard you with contempt.

MadAboutHotChoc Fri 04-May-12 10:39:08

No, it does not mean the end - after all quite a few of us, me included took our DHs back.

BUT

In order for the marriage to recover, there needs to be 100% honesty and the person who cheated has to work hard in order to address their own weaknesses and issues

I don't think your H is able to do these things, based on what you have told us.

Charbon Fri 04-May-12 11:00:40

Men are not very good at talking

Rubbish, sexist nonsense.

This one isn't very good at talking, in case he trips himself up.

Mumsyblouse Fri 04-May-12 12:03:04

I think what people are trying to say skye, is that if you wanted to get him back, you would have much more success if he felt he was losing you (if you told him you couldn't live with this uncertainty and were moving on) than if he feels you are sitting begging him to come back.

Anyway, you are going on the date whatever we think, but don't beat yourself up if you don't feel happy and light and cheerful and fall back in love again on it, you have had a hard time and his behaviour is hurtful in the extreme.

NotSureICanCarryOn Fri 04-May-12 12:24:38

OP to 'make someone talk' is not possible. If they don't want to, they won't.

What you can do is to ensure you create the right environment so that the person will be willing to talk. It can be a feeing of trust that they are not going to be put down for example.

I have no idea of your previous thread and you don't say why he is not talking. Has it always being like this etc...

What I do know is that, if he doesn't want to reply to your letter, is being cold with his text, then this suggest to me that he is not willing to.
Without him wanting to do so, it will not happen. And that's even before talking about what you can. can't, should or shouldn't do yourself.

(btw, you can't communicate well by texts! If you are able to communicate only by text, then you probably have some major communication pb imho)

skyebluesapphire Fri 04-May-12 14:35:38

He just bottles everything up, he hates confrontation and arguments, so he never says if anything pisses him off. He said he doesnt like hurting people so he just bottles it all up. He said he has always been like it, its just the way he is, sorry! I said you cant be like that, just bottle it all up and then decide on your own that the marriage is over, hurting me big time, when it would have been better to sort stuff out as we go along. I didnt even know that we had a problem.... We hadnt been unhappy, just a little ill and stressed for a while. I said that everybody has arguments and disagreements and it doesnt have to turn into a full scale row just if you are unhappy about something. I used to say, Im not having a go but - if I had something to say, which wasnt very often. He said nobody likes a bad atmosphere. But he has a very warped view of life if he thinks he can live with somebody and its always going to be happy bunnies. We have been together for 10 years, and have always been ok up to this point.

He wont talk about us now as says we have been over it all so no point in saying the same things over and over. But I dont see how we can move on until the issues are resolved. I have addressed a lot of his issues, the state of the house, my stress levels, having too much on at the weekends, no time to relax etc. These were easy things to fix and dont involve me changing myself.

But he is starting to communicate by text, he can talk by text as he is removed from the situation and finds it easier (this is why he talked to the friends wife, but he was telling her what he should have been telling me).. If he comes back at some future point and it will be a long way down the line if he does, then we need to talk about problems and keep talking.

The whole point of the date is to spend time together without any hassle or raking over the past to discover what his true feelings are. I know of several couples that have split up and got back together again after a few months...

skyebluesapphire Fri 04-May-12 14:39:51

I forgot to say he is a very deep person, it takes him a couple of days to reflect on things before it starts to sink in to him. He is very sensitive and touchy. He has walked out of numerous jobs over the years if somebody upsets him. This is why he is self employed now, he doesnt have to worry about anybody upsetting him. He has very low self esteem, never thinks he is good enough at anything.

But he cant just walk out of a marriage like its a job thats not working...

MissFaversham Fri 04-May-12 14:50:00

Who's idea what it to have a "date"? Hope it wasn't yours.

skyebluesapphire Fri 04-May-12 14:53:22

yes, it was my idea. He thought about it for a couple of weeks, then decided that it was a good idea. He walked out adament that the marriage was over, but after 4 weeks away he is changing his tune slightly..

MissFaversham Fri 04-May-12 14:56:13

OP, I'd give it another couple of months before meeting on neutural territory. Get the idea of a date right out of your head confused please!

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 04-May-12 15:21:29

"I know of several couples that have split up and got back together again after a few months..."

You have no idea how those couples are functioning behind closed doors. Having been one of those couples in the distant past I can tell you that in my case the smile was pasted on, my self-esteem was in pieces, I hated myself for having allowed him to take me for a fool and, with every day that passed, I wanted nothing more than to sink a knife into his stupid, selfish ribs. It's a pile of crap that marriage is special, for life and should be rescued at all costs.... which seems to be your position. If he did come back to you, the few hours of relieved happiness you will experience at the start will come at a very heavy personal cost.

skyebluesapphire Fri 04-May-12 16:40:16

I talked to a friend who was suffering from depression after a miscarriage. She told her partner she didnt want him any more, started to see somebody else, but they spent time talking and he was very patient and after about 3 months she realised that she wanted everything she had and not something different. they are getting married this year.

My aunt left her husband thinking that the grass was greener, but went running back 4 months later, after realising that it was actually sad and lonely out there on her own.

I know that this doesnt mean that my story will turn out happy ever after too, but it gives me hope that it can happen, not every couple who split up stay split up. If needs time to come out of whatever is going on in his head, that I am prepared to give him that time. But obviously at the same time I am adapting to living on my own, so am moving on slowly but surely at the same time as hoping to work it out with him..

Charbon Fri 04-May-12 17:26:50

Skye you cannot know what was happening in those relationships or whether you know all the reasons for those women leaving. Even their partners might not know the full story behind the break-ups, so you as a friend or niece are even less likely to know the full story.

And yes, people in your husband's position often come back, when their alternative relationships don't work out for some reason. Why you would want someone back though after an emotional or physical affair is the real question to ponder, especially when there is no honesty about it.

But overriding all this is that it's blatantly obvious that your husband doesn't want to reconcile - it's you who's pushing for things all the time. It would be different if your husband was making some efforts to talk and discuss your marriage and his thought processes, but he isn't. He keeps telling you he doesn't want to talk about it.

If you're right about why your husband is acting as he is, then you should leave him alone and give him the 'space' he craves. You got the reaction you did yesterday because he's probably irritated by you. I'm sure he's dreading this date tomorrow, because he doesn't want to be there and because its whole premise is completely false. Even you believe his heart lies elsewhere now and you can't compete with that and moreover you shouldn't compete.

I asked you what you wanted from this thread because you haven't taken a bit of advice given. It's really telling that no-one has given you advice on how to get through your date or how to act all 'sweetness and light'. That's because no-one thinks that's the right thing to do.

izzyizin Fri 04-May-12 18:52:37

He said he doesnt like hurting people If this were true, he wouldn't have behaved in such a hurtful way to you.

He just bottles it all up. He said he has always been like it, its just the way he is He's had no problem popping his cork with another woman.

He is a very deep person So deep he behaves like a shallow twat.

He is very sensitive and touchy. He has walked out of numerous jobs over the years if somebody upsets him Aw, poor diddums; life can be so cruel to a big girl's blouse.

Take those rose tinted specs off and see him for what he is; a selfish, self-absorbed, self-obsessed, self-entitled immature twat who runs away from anyone who, or any situation that, requires him to behave like an adult because he has no consideration for others or for the greater good.

Going on a 'date' with him and behaving like a Stepford wife for a few hours will prove what, exactly? That he made a mistake leaving you or that you're willing to degrade yourself to please him?

And what happens after the date? What are you going to do if your act fails to convince him? Continue to delude yourself that he's essential to your happiness and well-being and desperately search look for more stories of happy reunions endings

Get real and cancel the date, honey. Tell him that he either shapes up or he can stay shipped out - it's a guaranteed formula to get a 'deep thinker' thinking that maybe they've screwed up.

Pandemoniaa Fri 04-May-12 19:00:32

He is very sensitive and touchy. He has walked out of numerous jobs over the years if somebody upsets him

This is a red flag in its own right. Basically, you appear to have the misfortune to marry a thoroughly precious individual who, if he can't control everything around him, runs away.

He needs to grow up. I doubt very much that this will happen but certainly, he'll carry on dragging you down and making you the scapegoat for his inadequacies. So my advice is to cut yourself free, stop accepting his unacceptable behaviour and start valuing yourself. Sorry to be so blunt.

TimeForMeAndDD Fri 04-May-12 19:02:11

Sorry OP but I agree with everything Charbon says. I also worry that your denial is going to result in you getting very hurt. You appear to be thinking on behalf of your H, you seem to think you know what he wants more than he knows. I hate to say this but I'm beginning to feel a little bit sorry for him, you don't seem to be allowing him a choice, allowing him to use his own mind, I'm not surprised he is getting irritated, you are coming across as very overbearing. If you continue in the same light you are going to end up pushing him further away, then there will be no chance of a reconciliation. You need to take a step back and give him the space to come to you, if indeed he wants to come back to you.

oikopolis Fri 04-May-12 19:05:36

GOD he sounds utterly unbearable and just so deeply deeply unappealing. no offence meant OP, but how on earth do you manage to stay attracted to such an objectionable human being??

WHY would you want to beg and plead and grovel and weep and wail over such a waste of space?

putting the walking out on you aside (and the fact that he clearly walked out because he thought he had a shot with this OW.... and then she didn't take the bait... so now he's half-heartedly giving you a chance to "prove" you are "worthy" of him... <snort>)

he walks out of jobs because people upset him? seriously?? what a complete numpty. is he five?

he avoids confrontation because he's a pathetic coward, and then refuses to talk about the hideous aftermath of his cowardice because "we've been over this"? how nice for him to be able to pretend you and your emotions don't exist! what, are you just there to wash the dishes, service him sexually, and never make a peep beyond that?

you asked him if he wanted to "date" you, and he thought about it for weeks? were you grateful when he said yes or something?? WHY would you want to date someone so pathetic and ridiculous?

please, give your daughter a better example in life, and stop begging for the attentions of a twat. at least salvage your dignity. would you want your DD to run around after a man who cares so little for her? who is so precious and up-himself that he seems unable to notice that other people even exist?

really OP you deserve quite a lot better than this... start expecting more out of life, and you'll find you get it...

PooPooInMyToes Fri 04-May-12 19:05:41

I agree with everyone else. You need to play hard to get (hate that phrase!) so that he realises what he's losing.

PooPooInMyToes Fri 04-May-12 19:07:38

I agree with oik. You're being a bit of a sap here.

OP please listen to the very wise people who have posted here. This is heartbreaking to read. It's like you're a stray willing to take any scraps that he throws at you. You don't want to upset him so you're skimming over the fact that he dumped you and your innocent daughter. You're going on dates and writing him letters!

How would you respond to somebody else who wrote your OP? Would you tell her to care more about herself? To respect herself enough to NOT be treated this way? I hope bet you would.

Dozer Fri 04-May-12 19:10:21

He has walked out of several jobs and is self employed cos he can't deal with all that comes with employment? And has to text cos the poor flower can't deal with difficult interactions in person? More things not showing him in a good light.

The way you put him on a pedestal is sad

Btw, if you want him back on any terms at whatever cost to yourself (as you sadly seem to), the current approach of chasing him, begging him for a date, cooking, letting him know you want him etc, won't work. If you're intent on winning him back, try reading The Rules!

TimeForMeAndDD Fri 04-May-12 19:17:42

I'm afraid you do appear to be pandering to him OP, and therefore enabling him to treat you this way. He found the guts to leave you four weeks ago, he found his voice when it came to confiding in his friends wife. I wouldn't be underestimating him quite so much if I were in your shoes. I certainly wouldn't be cutting him so much slack or having a 'date' with him. If he couldn't find it in himself to talk to me, he would be talking to my solicitor. If he won't man up, then you have to! Let him have the space he so obviously needs and leave him to it, stop running after him. He will either come back to you or he won't, either way, your dignity will be intact.

I am sorry you are going through this though OP, you do deserve better.

lucyellensmumnamechange Fri 04-May-12 19:28:54

This is the prick that left you to go and live with his friend and his wife, who he has formed an "emotional bond" with. I have a prediction - he wants you to be his booty call. He doesn't want the family time, he wants to take you out, just you and him, he wants to fuck you i bet and then go back to being mr single. Have some pride FFS, you deserve better. You are laying yourself on a plate for him, telling him yeah, you kick me as hard as you like, i'll just roll over. Don't let your DD grow up to think that it is ok to be treated this way - you want better for her, surely?

midwife99 Fri 04-May-12 20:42:50

Oh honey I know it's hard to accept what seems to be the worst possible future (being a single parent) in favour of desperately trying to get back a selfish man who sent 1200 texts to another woman in one month while being married to tou with a child. He then moves in with that woman & "agrees" to go out on a date with you as long as your relationship is not discussed?!!!! I hope you do face facts eventually love. sad

NicNocJnr Fri 04-May-12 21:03:18

OP as I said I can't help you - by that I mean I cannot offer help, support and advice to you because I belive it is wrong. I apologise if I misconstrued your comments about illness and MH.

Just as I would not support somebody and advise them how to go about not getting caught cheating, the best drugs for a date rape or how to commit a crime I cannot offer any of the thoughts that you want because I have the right to refuse to condone things that are damaging or harmful to the health of a person or people.

I want you to find this a place of support but I can't support you in hurting yourself. I hope you find what you need here as MN has been an invaluable resource to many people.

izzyizin Fri 04-May-12 23:15:27

So I need to be sweetness and light and remind him of the person he fell in love with, so he can work out how he really feels about me

By voting with his feet he's made it clear he doesn't want to be with you, and the manner of his leaving has shown that he has no respect for you.

It's folly for you think that reminding him of how you once were, or how you once behaved around him, will cause him to change his mind at the present time.

Further, it should be cause for celebration that the birth your dd and other life experiences have brought you to a point far removed from the woman/girl you used to be.

The only issue here is whether Peter Pan he is willing to grow up and become a responsible and loving husband and father.

If he's not up to the task, there'll be no shortage of candidates who'll be more than willing to embark on relationship with you that is founded on adult values.

midwife99 Sat 05-May-12 07:29:06

Just reread this thread - on the one hand he complained about "the state of the house" - (why didn't he ffing clean it then?!) & unhappy that he doesn't get enough rest at the weekends but on the other hand hand "walked out of numerous jobs because someone upset him". Sensitive, touchy, won't communicate, (apart from 1200 texts in one month to OW of course!) Bloody hell love, he sounds so far up his own arse it's unbelievable! Why on earth do you want him back?!

Lizzabadger Sat 05-May-12 08:19:49

You got loads of advice on the previous thread.

You didn't listen to any of it.

No one's going to say anything different on this thread.

Looks like you will be learning the hard way sad

sunglasses Sat 05-May-12 09:05:22

Please cancel your date_ it won't win him back. An ex boyfriend left me years ago. We continued to meet up, have a jolly time, not discuss what happened and why and I was convinced he would come back. Guess what- he didn't. He just couldn't quite make the break and I made it really easy for him to have his cake and eat it. His last phone call was him begging me to come to his leaving party- he was leaving the country to set up a new life with a new partner who was expecting his first child! and he was still chasing me!! I politely declined and he sounded gutted. But I had moved on by then. Please at least put a little distance between you and if he wants to come back he will work damn hard to win you over again. If he doesn't he isn't worth it. Sorry

Mumsyblouse Sat 05-May-12 10:04:59

OP, perhaps you just have to go on this date, and see what happens afterwards to understand what's going on. I am not remotely convinced by your list of people who got back together, because in all those situations, the leaver wanted to return, whereas I don't see your husband beating a path to your door, sadly, he may be happy to have cups of tea, and the odd text, and even a date if you pester him and he takes two weeks to decide (how could you think this is ok, this is a massive rejection?), but he doesn't seem to want to return to the marriage, or talk about where it went wrong. Even if you convinced him to return for a short-time, my guess is he'd leave again. He seems to have fundamentally checked out of your relationship and your family and isn't even that sorry about it.

But, sometimes in life you have to take the hard path. I think it will cause you more grief this way, but it really is up to you. Make sure you have friends and family around you, and be nice to yourself.

sunglasses Sat 05-May-12 11:01:54

Has he even replied to your letter? I would ring him, say you have changed your mind about the date, have realised its not a good idea and that you have been putting pressure on your OH to meet up, talk etc before he is ready. Say you have said everything you need to say in your letter and you hope in his own time he can put down his own thoughts and feelings about the situation but until then he can have all the time and space he needs. You realise he must want to see his child so can ring to arrange to pick up and spend time with away from the family home and that should be your only contact until he has reached a decision about wether he wants to try again with the marriage.
Then you need to think long and hard about plan B which is the elephant in the room you have been ignoring- facing the future without your partner. Hideous and scary as that may be you need to at least start entertaining the idea that this may be a reality. And as for being sweetness and light and the person he fell in love with- do all those things but with other people. Have fun on your own, with your child, with friends and family and find out for yourself that you are this great person he can't live without. If your OH is ever going to have the same opinion he needs to work it out for himself and you know what by the time he does you might just realise he is not really good enough for you. I wish you all the best.

skyebluesapphire Sun 06-May-12 14:06:38

Well, just to update you, I went out with my husband yesterday, I went out in a positive but open frame of mind, as did he. We both dressed up smart and looked nice. We went to a local beach resort, walked hand in hand on the beach, went to the arcades, played pool, got some chips and went back to his house and watched a dvd.

He seems to have changed his mindset somehow from when he walked out 4 weeks ago. He is a lot more relaxed, he was very defensive, but is now starting to open up. I think that he is now genuinely missing me, not just his daughter. We had a fantastic day, a really good laugh and it did remind us of how it can be, not how it was back before Christmas.

I have told him that we can move on and forget the past but he does have to talk to me in future, or there will be no future for us. We are going out again this week.

He seems to be coming out of whatever crisis he went in to, its going to take time, but I am prepared to give him that. This is my marriage , my story, and there is nobody else involved, I am 100% sure of that now.

clam Sun 06-May-12 14:12:51

hmm OK.
Good luck.

midwife99 Sun 06-May-12 14:36:02

I really hope that is the case & you end up happy whatever happens. smile

Well good luck OP. I hope you're not back here having found out there is someone else, or that he's decided to dump you again. But if you are, you'll get the advice and support you need smile

midwife99 Sun 06-May-12 21:00:57

Yes I'd like to add that if things don't work out no one will say told you so, we will be here to help & support you. smile

malinkey Sun 06-May-12 21:02:53

Hmm, sounds like he's got his cake and is eating it.

lucyellensmumnamechange Sun 06-May-12 21:04:17

I wish you the very best of luck, i hope it works out for you both

izzyizin Sun 06-May-12 21:11:27

If only life was a beach instead of a bitch hmm

Glad you had a good time; did you watch the dvd as a foursome or were the couple he's living with out for the evening/away for the weekend?

If you have cause to believe that he's coming out of whatever it was he went into I would suggest that, instead of making all the running, you step back and wait for him to invite you out for your next 'date'.

midwife99 Sun 06-May-12 21:43:51

Izzy I'm stalking you! grin
I agree OP - try to back off now. If he wants you he'll come & get you.

TimeForMeAndDD Sun 06-May-12 22:21:41

He's not going to be in any rush to come home at this rate. 'Dating' his wife, lodging with a rather understanding couple, none of the responsibilities of a husband and father. Cushty! He's got it made!

PooPooInMyToes Mon 07-May-12 10:29:41

Well if he's missing you a bit you really need to make him miss you a lot, by backing right off! You've been told this a hundred times though and its clearly not want you want to do.

You are in a lot of eyes making yourself look like a doormat though. I don't understand why you think this makes you look attractive.

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 07-May-12 11:46:27

Remember that the more you have invested in a relationship and the harder you have fought to win someone back, the less likely you are to want to lose them.

skyebluesapphire Mon 07-May-12 12:21:00

Thanks for the replies, I do listen to what you say. He had tea last night after bringing daughter back because she asked if he could. He is a lot more relaxed in the house again now, which is as it should be, he was like a stranger when he first went. He was keen to spend time with me, not just her, he asked me to go to the soft play with him when he picked her up, so I went for an hour then left them to it.

When we went back to his on Sat, it was just us, the other couple were away for the weekend. We did cuddle up on the sofa, but I made sure that he made the first move, so that I knew that it was what he wanted, not me forcing him to do stuff he didnt want to do.

We cuddled up again last night here and listened to some music. I dont know what has happened to him, but he has turned a corner somewhere and seems to be coming back again. I know its a cliche, but I think he has had some sort of meltdown and couldnt see which way was up. I had a wobble myself back before Christmas and a bit of a panic thinking OMG is this it now for the rest of my life, but I think that was a reaction to turning 40 this year, lol. After a couple of days I realised that he was exactly what I wanted. I think he has done the same and not come out of it like I did....

He has told the friends wife that he had a great weekend and that he feels 100 times better about everything again. She said that he does have feelings for me, he has realised, but he is still a bit confused over everything. He does need to be certain though, as my daughter needs to come first now. He cant keep coming and going so if he comes back it has to be for good. i know there are no guarantees in life and we could separate years down the line, but I mean he has to be sure that he wants to come back and not go again in a few weeks as that would destroy my daughter and I cant do that to her.

So we will be going out again later on this week, at his suggestion. and no Im not putting out, lol.

midwife99 Mon 07-May-12 12:24:29

I really really hope he doesn't let you down. Perhaps you could give yourself a time limit?

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 07-May-12 12:27:22

Just a small question. Are you totally comfortable with having your intimate private life discussed with the friend's wife like this? She seems to be acting as confidante, go-between and he seems to look to her for permission on how to behave. I'd be very worried at this level of dependency. If it goes sour she'd have far too much sensitive information and it could come back to bite you.

skyebluesapphire Mon 07-May-12 12:30:21

well its been 4 weeks today and I am a lot stronger, I am surviving on my own, so I know I can. I have got a holiday booked on 16 July, I booked it through The Sun holidays and I have put his name down as I am hoping that he will be able to come with us. (have to pay for 4 people anyway). I dont want to pressure him as he definitely needs space, but I would hope that we will be ok by then which is 2 months away, so thats kind of a time limit that I have in my head...

He is talking a lot to his friends, he has got money coming in again, he is getting on top of the business. and living with his friends he can see how they argue, he can see how their housework never gets done, he can see that everybody has problems and its not just us... he keeps telling me things which make me laugh, I dont say anything , but I think well that proves its not just us then and maybe he needed to see that.

I am more optimistic for the future. He has caught the bait, but he can reel himself in now...... my turn to sit back

midwife99 Mon 07-May-12 13:30:09

I think booking a holiday & "putting his name down" for it without his consent is possibly a bit controlling? You are separated! What would have been healthier is booking a holiday for you & DC without him & then if he does eventually give in to your pressure to return, (err I mean come running back with open arms) it would serve him right to be left behind! I don't know if you're just a teensy bit over optimistic?!! confused

lucyellensmumnamechange Mon 07-May-12 14:02:55

I can't understand this - so he wants the dates, and the sex? Please tell me you didn't have sex with him. If he still loves you then he should move back in - end of story. I really don't think i could deal with him living away and throwing me morsels of hope. He is getting the best of both worlds isn't he.

skyebluesapphire Mon 07-May-12 14:15:11

I have booked a holiday for me and my daughter, that is all. But with The Sun holidays you have to pay for 4 people regardless of how many go. The actual holiday park need names and you cant add them afterwards. So I put down my mum and my husband, as that covers whatever happens, as my mum will come down for a couple of nights if he is not around, or if he is then that is covered too. If we are not resolved by then, he can come to the holiday park one evening and take my daughter to the entertainment that she loves, while I do something else.

I am not controlling, I am just trying to cover all eventualities in this uncertain time..... I have already told him that we are going, just me and her. I have not put his name down without his consent, he knows that I have put his name down! It shocked him that I booked the holiday because he thought I wouldnt go without him. I said he is welcome to come if we are sorted by then. Or if he doesnt want to (one of his issues was that we shouldnt take a holiday because of his work being sporadic, but this is my daughters last chance to take a term time holiday as she starts school in september) I have booked it through The Sun, so cost for 4 nights just over £100 rather than £500 if book direct with park. so if we are sorted by then and he still doesnt want to come, then that is fine, we are going regardless! I promised my daughter a holiday and I am not going to let him stop us, regardless of our situation now or in the future.. after that I have told him that I think that everybody needs 1 weeks holiday a year..... that its unreasonable to not want to go on holiday ever again. He has just been totally irrational over everything lately..

he has never had issues with holidays in the past, he always enjoys himself on holiday, but this is all down to financial pressure, and he knows that I support him in what ever he does and we have agreed to cut down on weekends away, concerts etc if he comes back.

and I am not pressuring him to return.. we are going out by mutual agreement, he is a lot happier than he was, we are not talking about him coming back, just seeing how we get along so that he can stop being confused and work out his true feelings...... I have not once in the past 4 weeks begged him to return, all I have asked is that he considers what he is doing and give it time before burning his bridges. I told him not to come home, that I dont want him home if he doesnt know what he wants.

skyebluesapphire Mon 07-May-12 14:22:34

No Im not sleeping with him, he definitely would have, but I said its not right. When he left he tried to deny his feelings and denied that attraction between us, but it is definitely there and he can see that now. There is no point in him moving back in though until he is certain it is what he wants. I am trying to protect my daughter in all this, so this is why Im not asking to move back in yet.

It has to be a slow process so that we are both sure that it is the right thing to do. Last time he asked for space, I pushed him to talk, we talked for 6 hours and he came back 3 days later. He said then that he felt pressured as he had asked for space, but he agreed he wanted to come back. So I made a huge mistake then. He left after 6 weeks saying it wasnt working. This time I have given him the space that he needs and not pressured him to come back. A good book I have that Relate recommended says that there is usually a wobble at around the 5-6 week mark and I think he hit that, panicked and walked out again. (his conversation that night went from him being confused, to walking out).

I dont care how long he needs to be away and how long it takes him. If there is any chance of sorting this, it takes as long as it takes, but at the same time, there has to be some improvement over the next couple of months, but saying that we have made a huge improvement in 1 week, so one way or the other things should be a lot clearer in a couple of months .....

lucyellensmumnamechange Mon 07-May-12 14:27:48

I really feel for you, i think i could very easily find myself in your position actually. Its all the bloody money worry isn't it. My DP is self employed and its so very stressfull. What does your DH do? Is there a way you can maybe help out with the business to take some of the stress away from him - be a team with it. It may well strengthen your relationship. I know that i have wanted to walk away from DP and he me, but its not each other we want an end to, its the struggle,the situation with debts and trying to keep the money coming in.

I think these are the conversations you need to be having, how to deal with the finances. Could you downsize? take some of the pressure off that way? Keep it practical - make a plan, together? If you have debts, contact The national debt line or Consumer Credit Counselling Service. It made all the difference for us.

I hope i will be with my DP forever, but if i am not, it will only be due to money worries. It can dessimate a relationship.

As for the holiday - i think that is sensible, but just don't hang all your hopes on it.

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 07-May-12 14:56:52

I think you need to look at why he is confiding in this friend's wife and not you - this is totally inappropriate and needs addressing if there is to be any chance of a successful reconciliation.

Not sure if I have already posted this link but this explains why we think he is having an inappropriate relationship with this woman:

www.shirleyglass.com/quizfriendship.php

skyebluesapphire Mon 07-May-12 15:33:54

Hi there, thanks for the link. Yes I do get what your saying and I do think it is an inappropriate relationship and I have told him that a few weeks ago when I confronted him about the texts. It is in the book that I am reading and it states that people can start an inappropriate relationship if they are down, feeling neglected, unappreciated etc, then they turn to somebody else who makes them feel good. I do think this is totally one sided though, that maybe he started to think she was wonderful and Im not, but nothing has happened and I am prepared to come through it if my husband is prepared to face up to it and reduce the level of contact with her. He is now texting the husband a lot as well.

I told him that he checked out of our relationship and into theirs, he told her all his problems and how unhappy he was, when he should have been telling me. He honestly didnt realise how much they were texting until I pointed it out to him. She was totally apologetic too and didnt think about the consequences of her actions. She has told him that he should be telling me how he feels about everything, not her.

PooPooInMyToes Mon 07-May-12 15:44:16

I agree that i don't like the way he is confiding so much in this woman. At one point it was a HUGE amount of texts. Totally inappropriate. You don't seem to mind that he's probably been attracted to her and that's up to you. But from what i can see not much has changed. He is still in constant contact with her but its just that he doesn't need to text her anymore because he living with her!

I really, really think you need to back off. This man has left you. It seems he's told you he's not attracted to you anymore, its over, doesn't love you etc, yet you are planning to take him on your holiday.

I also get the impression that he partly values your worth based on how good you are with the housework! WTF! Now he lives with the other woman and has seen that she's not great with it either and so actually on reflection you will have to do.

Is that really what you look for in a man?

skyebluesapphire Mon 07-May-12 15:54:23

We are having a trial separation, his thinking has totally changed in the past 4 weeks since he left, he is now prepared to try, which is totally different to saying its over. He hit rock bottom, panicked and walked out rather than trying to sort everything out. I accept that he had an infatuation with her, he made himself feel better by trying to help her. I can see past that.

He tried to deny attraction and feelings, yet for the past 2 nights we have been snogging like teenagers.... its all still there and he is starting to see that for himself. that is exactly why I suggested that we date, to see what happened and try to prove to him that the feelings are there! Thank god I did, rather than just let him walk away!

He didnt value my worth on the housework, the house just became a tip because I was so busy working I didnt take care of anything and he just got fed up with it, as a man working long hours may well do if he comes home to a mess that depressed both of us day after day. I just meant its done him some good to see what real life is like in someone elses house.

At the end of the day this is my marriage and if I want to save it, its up to me if I want to try that rather than get divorced, lose the man I love, upset my daughter etc etc etc. My husband is now in a totally different place mentally than he was 4 weeks ago and its looking much better for the future.

midwife99 Mon 07-May-12 16:09:50

Fingers crossed then - only you & he know the truth. This has to be the last chance surely? It's not the first time he's left is it?

PooPooInMyToes Mon 07-May-12 16:42:22

that is exactly why I suggested that we date, to see what happened and try to prove to him that the feelings are there! Thank god I did, rather than just let him walk away!

You shouldn't need to prove anything to him. You shouldn't need to show him that he has feelings for you or do things to earn his feelings back for eg you were saying you needed to act all sweetness and light to make him remember that he loved you. Wheres his responsibility here for figuring it out for himself!?

I can say i would want to convince a man that he loved me and to behave a certain way to do that. Sorry if this sounds harsh but i have too much self respect for that.

I can't help but feel that you treat him like a child. This man who doesn't know his own mind so needs showing by you. You are not giving him enough responsibility for his own actions.

lucyellensmumnamechange Mon 07-May-12 16:53:18

If he was that bothered by the state of, the huse he could have helped! You were working too

PooPooInMyToes Mon 07-May-12 16:57:59

He didnt value my worth on the housework, the house just became a tip because I was so busy working I didnt take care of anything and he just got fed up with it, as a man working long hours may well do if he comes home to a mess that depressed both of us day after day.

Is this the 1950s? Why are you completely responsible for the housework? Especially if you are both working! I assume you do the majority of the childcare as well?

The "as a man working long hours" bit just blew my mind!

What about you as a woman working and looking after your child when not as work, getting fed up of being the one who has to do all the housework and has to live with a man who takes no responsibility for anything or himself, who sends hundreds of texts to another woman, who needs someone to explain to him that he does indeed love his wife, who needs to see that other women aren't perfect housekeepers either to be able to even consider coming back to you? But only after you've earned it by cleaning up the house and turning yourself into a woman whose like a carefree young girl again to please him rather than the reality which is a woman with stresses and responsibilities. How long can you keep up the act and why should you? What is he a man child! Doesn't like the realities of family life? Tough fucking shit! I wouldn't like the reality of living with a man like that either.

What about you? You're not getting a great deal here are you? Is this man really worth it? This man who might come back to you if you can be perfect from now on.

What do you actually get from him because from what I've read its all about what he needs and wants and how you can contort yourself to provide that.

midwife99 Mon 07-May-12 17:09:01

Perhaps he'd like to pay for a cleaner - oh no, I forgot, you earn the majority of the money because he can't hold down a job because people "upset him"! Oh god!!!!!!! confused

PooPooInMyToes Mon 07-May-12 17:22:53

I forgot about that midwife! He really IS a manchild!

Do you like being mother to your husband op?

God the more i read about this guy the more i think he is a massive twat. You seem to have so much love and respect for him yet i can't see why. Hopefully its because he's actually a nice bloke rather than because you have low self esteem and don't think you deserve any better.

skyebluesapphire Mon 07-May-12 17:28:41

He is self employed and works long hours, never knows what he is doing from day to day. I work part time from home mainly and also go out to clients, and try and work around my daughters preschool hours. I took on too much work to cope with and let everything else slide. I was working evenings, weekends, barely speaking to him some days as I was so busy. I didnt know when to switch off. Believe me, he did his fair share of the work, more than, he was doing all the washing, drying and putting the clothes away, sorted out the cats, did the bins and the recyclying and usually the hoovering as well. He would mop the kitchen and bathroom floors. He put our daughter to bed every night. I cleaned the kitchen, bathroom, and did the cooking and we shared the dishes. He started to give up because he felt that whatever he did wasnt appreciated and didnt make a difference to the state that the place was in, he lost all motivation to want to do anything. and I understand that as I felt completely the same and therefore nothing got done and it got worse and worse... He said that one day he tidied up the kitchen and I came home and instead of being grateful just moaned at him because he had put everything on the living room table and then I threw it all back in the kitchen. (my point being that when you tidy a room you need to find a home for everything, not just move it from one room to another....) but instead of him saying he was pissed off at the time, he bottled it up for months along with everything else, so when he blew months later, I can barely remember what he is talking about, but to him its a major problem...

As a professional person, I used to earn more than him pre daughter, but now he is the main earner and happy to work the hours so that I can stay at home and not work full time. we did share the chores but I think it had got to the point that he did more than I did and he was working full time and I wasnt. He can earn good money if he puts the hours in, but he felt that I moaned if he worked weekends or came home late at night, so nothing he could do was right, that was how he felt in the end.

He doesnt want me to be perfect, he just wants me to pull my weight, which I totally agree with. I can be lazy I know that. I used to watch an awful lot of tv in the evenings instead of sorting out the tea dishes etc, and then they would still be there the next day. but some nights I was working at home until 9pm, then would get tea, by the time we had eaten it was 10pm, then its too late to want to do anything other than veg out in front the tv....All I am trying to do is see my own faults and accept them, not blame him for everything. We have agreed to lay the blame 50/50, in order that we can move on from here.....

Before we both got stressed out and life turned shit, we had a wonderful life together. He is a very kind caring considerate generous man who would have done anything for me to make me happy. He was a wonderful father who doted on his daughter. I was so lucky compared to hearing friends talking about their husband and I took him for granted and I treated him like shit without realising it..... and without realising what it was doing to our marriage.. we simply didnt spend enough time together in the last few months.

I know that I cant make him love me, but I also know from past experience that he just blows up, makes a decision and then later regrets it and is too insecure and lacking in confidence to try and change what he has done. If that is what has happened then we can get this back.

tribpot Mon 07-May-12 17:29:08

You seem to see it as your responsibility to look after his feelings and his house, OP. Does he feel a similar sense of responsibility to you? Have you discussed how his abandonment has made you feel, or is that all to be shut up in the box of 'stuff in the past'?

I worry that you will have to maintain a fiction of 1950s perfection for fear of him walking out again. You want to work on your marriage, but does he? It seems like you're making all the running here; as you seem quite fond of gender generalisations, is that what you think women should do?

skyebluesapphire Mon 07-May-12 17:39:12

god no, not at all, I am not a feminist, but I grew up with a MCP for a father, who simply has to demand a cup of tea and my mum will run and get it. He will walk past the kettle and go and sit down and then demand a cup. I would tell him to FO! The trouble is I said I would never be a doormat like her and be walked all over, and would not end up with a man who treated me like that, but I think I ended up with a man who let me walk over him instead :-( because he was too quiet to say if he was unhappy. I have apologised to him for that and he accepts that he is to blame for not speaking up as Im not a mind reader. I never controlled him, or ordered him around, I am just quite organised and he isnt...... I think that we need to take equal responsiblity for the work in the house and for our feelings. He knows how badly he has hurt me and his daughter, I have been able to tell him that.

He has always liked the fact that I am confident and professional, he doesnt want a wife in a pinny in the kitchen.

PooPooInMyToes Mon 07-May-12 17:45:03

I took on too much work to cope with and let everything else slide.

So why didn't he support you in that?

Why are you apparently the one who took on too much work? Why is it not him? Why does his work and what he wants to do take priority?

He said that one day he tidied up the kitchen and I came home and instead of being grateful just moaned at him because he had put everything on the living room table and then I threw it all back in the kitchen. (my point being that when you tidy a room you need to find a home for everything, not just move it from one room to another....) but instead of him saying he was pissed off at the time, he bottled it up for months along with everything else, so when he blew months later, I can barely remember what he is talking about, but to him its a major problem...

Well you had a hell of a point there! You come home and find the contents of one room piled in another, of course you are annoyed. Did he have any intention of sorting it out? Twat.

So he sulked about you pointing out his error for months and took offence and left? . . . You do realise that he's done exactly the same to you as he has with his jobs. You upset him so he left.

He's a man who can't take any sort of criticism. If any does come his way he can't be in that job or with that person anymore. Thats hugely dysfunctional and he will teach that way of reacting to criticism, constructive or otherwise to your daughter.

He needs help if he has to cut off anyone who dare criticise him. This isn't your fault its his own rather major issue.

AnyFucker Mon 07-May-12 17:54:29

OP, the more I read your posts, the more it seems that the vision in your head of this man bears no resemblance to the reality of him

you are doing a very good job of convincing yourself ...the rest of us here ? Not so much...

midwife99 Mon 07-May-12 17:54:33

If he doesn't want a wife in a penny in the kitchen why has he complained that you let the housework slide??!!! So many contradictions!!!

It's so frustrating reading your updates OP that I'm going to hide the thread! I sincerely wish you all the best for the future. But I don't think it will be with that excuse for a man. You sound like you really love your dd and you are a good mum but I can't imagine this is the type of example you'd want to set for her? Bending over backwards to suit the whims of a man who doesn't want her? I'm sure you're better than that. Take care.

Is this the message you want to send your daughter, really? The best she can hope for in a relationship is this?

No point laying the blame 50/50 when it wasn't, it seems your 'man' is incapable of behaving like a grown up and why should he, he has no incentive to be any different you are always waiting ready to accept half if not all of the fault.
sad

ninah Mon 07-May-12 18:16:11

I think your mother's model of putting herself second to your 'MCP' dad has affected you more than you realise, is this a legacy you want for dd?

malinkey Mon 07-May-12 18:20:59

I'm amazed that any woman can categorically state that she is not a feminist.

I wonder why you say that and how much that has influenced your stance on this situation?

Dozer Mon 07-May-12 18:29:50

shock

PooPooInMyToes Mon 07-May-12 18:45:12

I agree with dina.

izzyizin Mon 07-May-12 18:52:07

he has never had issues with holidays in the past, he always enjoys himself on holiday

Quelle surprise! Of course he doesn't have an issue with holidays - his whole life is one long vacation.

This is a man who studiously avoids facing the consequences of his actions and if anyone or any thing upsets him, whether that be his employers, his wife, or his house, he walks.

Life doesn't always imitate art. It's not like the movies. When the going gets tough, the tough roll up their sleeves and get stuck in, but Mr Self-obsessed blames everyone else for the situations he finds himself in and strolls off into the sunset.

And now that he's treated you and his dd to his complete lack of consideration and disregard for others, you're going to reward him with another holiday?

This man acts as if he's royalty. When he returns to the well-ordered castle you'll be knocking yourself out to create and maintain, will you be laying his perfectly laundered clothes out every morning and squeezing his toothpaste for him?

Proudnscary Mon 07-May-12 19:00:04

Oh my GOD don't get me started on 'men who work long hours are entitled to come home to a tidy house'!!!!!!!!!

<Starts foaming at the mouth>

I think you have some, ahem, unusual and ingrained attitudes and have rose coloured specs when it comes to your dh BUT I totally agree that it is your marriage and it's clearly very important for you to fight for it. I might not get the ways you are going about it, but I respect your love for him and your deep desire to keep your family together. I am glad you had a gret date. I hope and pray he felt the same and he is not a) already completely invested in that rather dreadful sounding other woman and b) is not flaky enough to keep coming back then leaving when he can't hack being a grown up.

gafhyb Mon 07-May-12 19:14:12

This sounds lovely for now. But what about when it happens again? Nothing has changed. Life will become stressful again and he will have not learned any mechanisms of how to deal with that without hurting you and your daughter.... Or, actually, perhaps he'll have learned that whatever he does it will be fine because you'll capitulate.

gafhyb Mon 07-May-12 19:15:01

You sound nice by the way, and I really respect your desire to not give in.

But he's not deep

tribpot Mon 07-May-12 19:16:27

I wonder if the apparent 50:50 sharing of blame is that this is your fault and his error was just in not telling you sooner. I sincerely hope not.

izzyizin Mon 07-May-12 19:38:24

I find it significant that he agreed to go on a date with you and has continued to pay you some attention while the ow and her h are away.

The acid test is whether he wavers when they return - and whether he invites you back to 'his place' for a cosy foursome.

AnyFucker Mon 07-May-12 19:42:36

this man is as deep as a rather grubby puddle

cornflowers Mon 07-May-12 19:47:12

I can't put my finger on it exactly, but this thread makes for uncomfortable reading IMO

AnyFucker Mon 07-May-12 19:49:30

cf, understatement of the week, there

skyebluesapphire Mon 07-May-12 19:58:21

unfortunately he has grown up with a mother who showed very little affection and criticized every thing he did and made him feel useless. This has had a terrible effect on his confidence and he is over sensitive. I have only ever tried to love and support him, but I know at times I did criticize stuff and he got to the point where he felt that he couldnt do anything right. and I didnt realise what I was doing to him.

I took on too much work to be able to have enough come september when my daughter starts school. I didnt like to turn anything down as I only started my self employed business in April last year. So I took on more than I should ahve. He supported me by not complaining that I was always working and he didnt mind if I worked weekends, but his own job was very stressful, working for one company and taking commission for another for arranging stuff. He has actually lost one of those jobs now, so his own life is a lot less stressful.

now that my work has calmed down as well, life should get a lot easier all round.

cornflowers Mon 07-May-12 20:00:43

Hmm ... Yes, AF, point taken. I meant, apart from the obvious, op's subservience, the dh being a twat etc etc, there's something strangely unsettling about the op's attitude.

MadAboutHotChoc Mon 07-May-12 20:03:29

Sounds like he has issues which only HE can resolve himself - unfortunately you cannot resolve these for him, and it is not your job to make him happy.

He needs to go to individual counselling - these issues are having a massive impact on his life, family, work and marriage.

izzyizin Mon 07-May-12 20:04:29

Car crash tv or the timewarp effect - back to the 50's, cf?

The only way it can be said that this man is 'deep' is that he's deep into himself and it's often the case that 'deep' is accompanied by 'devious'.

AnyFucker Mon 07-May-12 20:06:28

I know, cf, and I was agreeing with you

it is very unsettling to read...the kind of stuff you never want your daughter to grow up believing, IYSWIM

OP, you cannot rescue him from his childhood issues...while you continue to excuse him because of them , he will never change

it seems you are happy with him as he is though...good luck with that

PooPooInMyToes Mon 07-May-12 20:14:17

Its normal to be able to criticise our partners without them walking out, its just normal life and relationship stuff. You have done nothing wrong there. The problem is with him and he needs to deal with that.

How can you possibly make allowances for it? You'll be treading on eggshells for the rest of your life with this man. Pandering to him. Not that different to your mum with your dad.

malinkey Mon 07-May-12 20:40:51

Splitting the blame 50:50 is an odd concept when it's obvious that one person is the one mainly in the wrong.

Only that's not you and you seem to be taking 100% of the blame.

Mumsyblouse Mon 07-May-12 21:17:44

I think continuing to ignore the elephant in the room is the only way you could possibly save this relationship.

OP, you are taking on all the responsibility as if you drove your husband away, actually he has form for doing a runner whenever things get stressful. Be careful, all the signs are he has you dangling on a thread (taking two weeks to reply about the date, not being sure) and no evidence he is being honest or committed about really making a go of it and never leaving again.

I wish you luck OP.

I rather think you are going to need it.

midwife99 Mon 07-May-12 22:00:57

AF & CF - I feel v uncomfortable too. Kinda like the self denial & martyrdom is making me feel ill confused

oikopolis Mon 07-May-12 22:29:45

damn.

i wish i could behave like a stroppy impulsive uncommunicative toddler and have my DH make 1,000,000 excuses for me doing so.

must be nice be completely free of all responsibility

izzyizin Mon 07-May-12 22:31:36

See the elephant in the room for what it is; a reminder that any time you criticise him, or any time he perceives anything you say or do as criticism, you'll be responsible for him leaving you hours/days/weeks/months later.

midwife99 Mon 07-May-12 22:48:59

Sapphire - do you not think it strange that not one person had said shut up you negative cows, OP is right, it's lovely she's trying to get him back? He sounds great!

CervixWithASmile Mon 07-May-12 23:00:33

This will sound awful but I think the likely scenario is the other woman has given him the brush off.

izzyizin Mon 07-May-12 23:11:13

I doubt it, Cervix.

The ow is away for the weekend with her h, most probably fulfilling some longstanding engagement or other prebooked event, and I suspect that she's given the OP's h permission to amuse himself in her absence knowing full well she can reel him in again if he looks like wriggling off her hook.

Apparently he's begun sending copious texts to the ow's h. Menage a trois or surrogate dps? Whatever the arrangement, this particular poor diddums seems to have a propensity for landing on his feet. Could it be the way he plays the violin?

Dozer Tue 08-May-12 06:37:24

OP, izzy is right. If he deigns to return, the next time you are not there, smiling, hving sex, needing things from him, he will be gone again, and you will be living under the threat that in his eyes you are not good enough.

The excuses you make for him and examples of how you have allegedly let him down are not valid. Criticism, working too much etc, are just ordinary relationship stuff. Hardly equates to texting another woman thousands of times, walking out on you and dd, stringing you along.

What could be more exciting for him than "snogging like teenagers" and having his tea cooked, while having no actual responsibilities? It doesn't mean he loves you.

Have you looked into the finances yet?

I think not, presumably it takes too much energy trying to win him back and think up excuses for him.

On your other thread you mentioned that he isn't always good to DD, that at times you struggle with her too, and that her behaviour was a factor in the breakdown of the relationship ( another poster pulled you up on that one). What will you do to address his / your skills as a parent? Blame Dd?

"life" may settle down now, but will inevitably not remain calm forever. Shit happens, and if this is how he reacts, and he's unwilling to take responsibility, he will let you and DD down again. Will you have another baby? What happens then when she/he screams all night, has tantrums etc? What if you get sick, will he support you and take care of the DC?

Please, at the very least, go to counselling to discuss this relationship and situation on your own. He could go to someone else. Joint counselling prob not a good plan in this case, it will surely just help him to blame you more and you to feed your self-flagellation.

gafhyb Tue 08-May-12 07:03:32

I agree with MadAboutChocolate

OP - from time immemorial, women have been describing men who have difficulty communicating and men who "act out" as "sensitive and deep". And have been hurt by them.

We are all deep, we are all sensitive. If he has not dealt with (and possibly doesn't recognise) the way his upbringing has affected him you can't do it for him.

Morloth Tue 08-May-12 07:35:27

He has you totally sorted doesn't he OP?

nkf Tue 08-May-12 07:48:14

You can't save a marriage all by yourself. You can't repair something if you don't know where the break is. If he won't talk and you can't move in unless he does, then you're at an impasse. Counselling might help if he's willing. But don't beat yourself up. You're only one person.

izzyizin Tue 08-May-12 08:59:30

On your other thread you mentioned that he isn't always good to DD, that at times you struggle with her too, and that her behaviour was a factor in the breakdown of the relationship Is that so, Dozer?

Surely a man who's a 'deep' thinker and a 'sensitive' soul, and who's had a shit childhood himself, will go to extraordinary lengths to make his dc feel loved and secure at all times?

Do tell, OP. How the fuck has a 4yo contributed to the breakdown of your marriage? Is she the spawn of the devil or could it be her df is so completely up himself that he doesn't give a shit about his own dd's needs?

If you raise your dd to believe that she's got to tiptoe around on the same eggshells that he's laid down for you, she'll become a woman with her own elephant to remind her that men are creatures that must be appeased or they'll do a runner.

Dozer Tue 08-May-12 10:13:33

I don't raise the issue with DD to be horrible to sapphire, it just seems like another big, important issue that sapphire isn't talking about.

Dozer Tue 08-May-12 10:26:21

Lissa's posts from the other thread

"oh god, I can understand where you are coming from.. my daughter is 4 and my husband has just walked out on us. I feel myself getting so frustrated with her when she wont pick up the toys or get ready for bed, that I nearly end up screaming at her...

I know we are going through a bad time and I want to make life nice for her, not be shouting at her, but I just end up in tears because she just defies me all the time. i did an incredible years course, but its not been much help as the time out thing just doesnt work with her.....

I tell myself that she is only 4 and I am the adult here. who else do you scream at in life if they dont do what you want? I dont talk to adults like that, so cant allow myself to scream at her, but it is very difficult, especially at the moment.. The stress caused by her has been one of many factors in the breakdown of my marriage im sure as my husband would come home and Id be like, just get her out of my face she is doing my head in and he hadnt been here all day to see what its like..."

Dozer Tue 08-May-12 10:29:32

(in response to the poster who said that sapphire/lissa shouldn't blame dd for marital problems) "in my defence, she has had both me and my husband at breaking point with her behaviour, she simply will not do what she is told and it has caused problems with my MIL. it has stressed us both out and has caused problems between us, that is what I meant. I didnt want to smack her, husband did. i stopped shouting at her, husband didnt. That is what I meant by it being a problem. It is only a very small part of the overall stress created by many different things, but it has been a part of it.

of course I would never ever let her know that, of course its not her fault"

Your DH wanted to smack DD? sad angry

izzyizin Tue 08-May-12 10:39:53

I have no doubt that in raising this issue you have acted in the best interests of the OP, Dozer.

It seems that the OP has got more than one elephant in the room and she's going to have her work cut out to sweep her dd under the carpet of eggshells whenever the child doesn't please her df.

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 10:48:25

We do make our daughter feel loved and secure, however she is a very wilful child and had me in tears at her behaviour, throwing things at me, hitting me, knocking things off shop shelves. She would not do a single thing she was told, just ignored me all the time. I did an Incredible Years course and got support from my local childrens centre in addressing her behaviour and it is much better now. They made me see that a lot of it was down to attention seeking because I was working so much and not giving her the attention that she needed when at home. I am not having any more children, I had severe sickness and SPD in pregnancy and was advised against having any more by my consultant, plus I have just turned 40. We constantly praise her daughter when she does things, we play with her, make things with her, take her swimming, to the park, do playdoh, play in the garden and have cuddles watching tv, reading books etc.

Her behaviour caused a lot of stress between us because we felt we were always shouting at her and telling her off all the time and I didnt want it to be like that. We got to the point that we felt we couldnt take her anywhere as she simply wouldnt behave and either ended up breaking things or hurting herself because she wouldnt do what she was told. I would spend all day with her and be at the end of my tether and he would come home for me to say do something with her, shes doing my head in and Im trying to cook tea etc. So he was coming home day after day to a house that was in such a mess it depressed both of us, to a wife that could barely be bothered to smile and say hello to him, and a child that was just trashing the place. and yes, that may be family life for a lot of people, but it never used to be like it for us. We just went through a really bad patch...

We have had a fantastic weekend together, my husband IS trying to repair the relationship. He is very stubborn and if he really felt it was over, there is no way he would be doing this. There is nothing going on with the friends wife of that I am certain. I know it looks bad with all the texting, but none of you know my husband. Yes, what he did was wrong in turning to her, but he just finds it very difficult to talk about his feelings. He is putting everything in a letter to me as he simply cannot talk about the way he feels about all of this. Having talked to a friend who is a councellor, she suggested that this was the best thing for him to do. His brother has now told me that he has done this before, and he always turns to a married friends wife (including the brothers own wife in the past ) as he feels safe with them, because they are married, and he can talk to them.

He asked me to go to the soft play with them, so I did for an hour, then he took her off and yes I did cook him tea because my daughter wanted him to stay for tea. He relaxed in the house for the first time in 4 weeks. He is definitely feeling better about everything.

I have said that we can draw a line under the past, once I have read his letter and dealt with it, but that ongoing there is no future if he cannot talk to me ongoing about stuff, or we will just end up back here again. I am very much aware that he has to be certain that its going to work, as for our daughter's sake, he cant come back and then go again... he didnt just leave because of the state of the house, it was one small issues amongst several others, that we both contributed to. I have to accept blame because I was so stressed out with work that I can see now that I wasnt very nice to live with at times. I am not taking all the blame, but I am certainly not blameless.

As for 1950's housewife, I am far from it. I believe that men and women should do an equal share of housework, if both working long hours, unfortunately, he ended up doing more than me! He would mop floors, hoover up, do all the washing, drying and putting away. He put our daughter to bed, still had all his business paperwork to do as well. He did the bins, recycling etc. I cooked the meals and sorted the dishwasher and cleaned the kitchen and bathroom and bedrooms. He was always a totally hands on father right from her birth, feeding her, changing her, bathing and showering her. He has been a fantastic father with her.

I don't deserve nasty comments as some of you have put on here. Not every husband is having an affair, not every marriage that separates is totally broken. I want to save my marriage if I can, for my daughters sake, but only if we are both sure that its what we want and that its going to work.

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 10:52:30

the posts that you quote above about what I said about my daughter are what I posted on somebody else's thread where she was having problems with her own child not doing as she was told. I did not post those comments in my own thread......

and yes we both smacked our daughter as it was the only thing that stopped her bad behaviour. It was the last resort and did not happen all the time by any means. The childrens centre dont condone smacking and that is why I did the parenting course, to find other ways of dealing with her behaviour.

I do not smack my daughter now and neither does my husband.

Dozer Tue 08-May-12 10:57:38

Has he done the parenting course you did, or reduced his working hours? Did the people on the course tell you that the reason her behaviour was challenging was because you worked, or was that your DH's interpretation?

Also, after a full day with a challenging child, who would be sweetness and light at the end? How often did/does he look after her for a full day?

MN is a forum where people will be blunt and harsh, but on this thread everyone has good intentions. You are pursuing a course that most people, here or in RL, would consider unwise, and haven't taken one iota of people's advice, even the mild and practical.

Dozer Tue 08-May-12 10:58:52

You didn't post them here sapphire, no, but they are relevant.

izzyizin Tue 08-May-12 11:09:33

Omigod. Due to an incoming phone call, I crossposted with you, Dozer.

I didnt want to smack her, husband did. i stopped shouting at her, husband didnt WTF? He's not just an arse; he's a child abusing arse.

He physically, verbally, and emotionally, abuses his dd but that's only a very small part of the overall stress created by many different things? shock

There's a veritable herd of elephants in the room and the OP's response is to become an ostrich.

This poor little girl's life has already been blighted by having parents who are self-centred and abusive airheads.

Proudnscary Tue 08-May-12 11:11:20

I think that was bad form to post those comments from another thread on here dozer, I really do.

As Skye said, they did not come from the thread about her marriage breakdown but an enitrely different thread.

That is unacceptable - whether relevant or not.

Lots of people - well everyone, myself included - are trying to help OP and challenge perceived delusions. Bu tat does not mean anyone should be beating her into submission I think you/we have all made our/your points.

If OP needs to talk in the future, if things don't pan out as she hopes then she needs to feel she can come back here and be supported.

Enough now.

Proudnscary Tue 08-May-12 11:17:38

Izzy for goodness sake, you can't call OP abusive.

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 11:31:47

This thread is not about smacking. My husband is not abusive. We both shouted at her, we both smacked her and neither of us are abusive. I am not here to discuss smacking. I am by no means the only parent who smacks their child. I no longer smack my child as I couldnt tell her to stop smacking me if I was smacking her, so it was not the right thing to do I can see that. But that is not what this post is about. Everybody makes mistakes and we have dealt with ours.

My daughter is happy, secure (well as much as she can be at the moment) and she loves us both very much as do we her.

Calling me a self centred abusive airhead is downright nasty as I am none of those things and neither is my husband.

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 11:37:13

It was the childrens centre who made me realise that she was attention seeking, not my husband. I told him everything the course said and then we tried to work together to use some of their methods to address her behaviour. Time out doesnt work with her, but confiscating toys etc does. Every child is different. and she did cause stress between us and I have several friends who say exactly the same thing. Daddy wants to come home to the fantasy of a clean house, happy smiling wife and child, whereas the reality is a mess, a frazzled wife and a screaming child.

midwife99 Tue 08-May-12 12:04:53

It is a fantasy - that is the point. Of course he can be lovely all weekend when all he has to do is go on dates, snog like a teenager & take DD to a soft play area. I hope he can man up if he returns to real life. hmm More importantly I hope you can get the support you need.

mummytime Tue 08-May-12 12:13:23

If she is attention seeking you need to stop punishing her, and instead reward her with attention for good behaviour. A friend recommends using a star chart to help you look for and "catch" good behaviour. Try to minimise attention for bad behaviour and pay lots of attention to good.

As for your elephant in the room, well I'd suggest you work out what you are worth, what you want, and start to value yourself a lot more.

PooPooInMyToes Tue 08-May-12 16:15:04

Daddy wants to come home to the fantasy of a clean house, happy smiling wife and child, whereas the reality is a mess, a frazzled wife and a screaming child.

Well it's tough titties really isn't it. You were working a lot, dealing with a child who was acting out because she wanted attention and you couldn't keep up with the housework, and he was upset because you needed respite from your dd when he got in and you weren't all sweetness and light?

I can't tell you how much that has happened to me, my DH has come home and I have hardly spoken to him because I am exhausted and stressed. You know what he does? He takes over and just gets on with it. That's what grown ups do. Our relationship never used to be like that either, of course it didn't, no one's is until they have children because it's bloody hard sometimes.

You seem convinced (as does he) that it's your responsibility to make his life very, very easy, encountering no stresses with the perfect happy, happy wife that only exsists in fairy tales.

How long do you think you can keep that up?

Dozer Tue 08-May-12 16:58:48

Maybe it was bad form, am not trying to judge the OP or beat her into submission, the parenting issues and especially her DH just seemed important. I also don't think it was good for the OP to omit so much information in the hope she'd hear what she wanted to hear. Get what you're saying, that pushing or judging too much can send people away who need support.

But nor is MN the right forum for unquestioning reassurance or approval for damaging situations.

lucyellensmumnamechange Tue 08-May-12 16:59:30

His brotjer said hes done this before? Ffs why do you value yourself and your dd so little?

PooPooInMyToes Tue 08-May-12 17:05:58

The fact that his brother says he's done this before shows you that you are not at fault here. This is just what he does.

clam Tue 08-May-12 17:43:42

I think we're wasting our time here, ladies. The OP is determined to get him to come back, regardless of what we say.

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 18:20:21

Neither my husband nor I see it as my responsibility to make his life easy. Nor does he blame me for everything. All I am saying is that nobody wants to come home to a shit life day after day after day and that is what happened. Some days I didnt want to come home either, so I know how he feels. I am obviously angry with him for walking away from us, for not having the guts to try and sort it out before it was too late and these are issues that will be addressed before we can even begin to think about starting again. But the main point, that he thought his feelings were gone, is the point that I am addressing now because if they really have then nothing else matters. But if they havent and he has not said that he doesnt love me, he has only said that he doesnt feel the same as he used to, then there is still a chance for us. If the love is still there, then we can sort out everything else.

Regarding the texting I was trying to explain why my husband turned to somebody else and why I am so sure that nothing is going on, ie the fact that he has done it in the past, with no affair, just support from a female friend. The friends is living with are trying for a baby soon and they will want him out of their house. He will then end up in a bedsit by his own choice if our marriage is over - again by his choice. If thats what he wants out of life, then thats up to him. I will carry on with my daughter and make the best of our life.

But I am not prepared to throw away my marriage for the sake of a bad couple of months, we were happy before and we could be happy again. Too many people end up divorced because they cant be bothered to really try and sort things out. I am not one of those people. While my husband is still saying that he is confused and unsure what he wants, I am not going to just throw in the towel and watch him walk away.

gafhyb Tue 08-May-12 18:22:15

I hope he tries as hard as you. And that involves addressing the elephant in the room.

gafhyb Tue 08-May-12 18:26:18

You were happy before because you never faced stress. You will face stress again. It's what marriages do. How can this not go bad again if you don't address the elephant?

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 18:28:38

He is trying hard at the moment - he is texting me daily now, without me making first contact, he is ringing, he is asking after us and how my day is etc. All the little things that make a difference through the day.

He is addressing the elephant in the room by writing me a letter. He texted me to say - you know how hard I find it to open up about my feelings, I am going to do what you did and write it all down, it may take me a while, but I will get the letter to you as soon as I can. i will try and put as much in the letter as I can. When you have read the letter, you can let me know how you feel about it -

We are going out again this week and he will be coming to see our daughter one evening too which means we also get some time together after she has gone to bed.

All I can do is take it slowly and see where we go over the next few weeks, but the longer it takes, the more chance there is of it working out long term.

gafhyb Tue 08-May-12 18:31:15

Well that's good (the letter). I hope it helps. I hope he is honest

lucyellensmumnamechange Tue 08-May-12 18:57:55

"im not happy to throw my marriage away for a rough couple of months" Its a shame he didn't feel the same.

I know where you are coming from with regards to the stress, we have this, in many respects we are very similar - stress, a DD that plays up and very little time to ourselves, debts, and general everyday dullness oh and the house is an absolute pigsty.

We went through a horrible stage when DD was about 2, i had terrible post natal depresion and i think DP was depressed too. We nearly split up, but not once did DP actually take the cowards way out and walk away. I think we both knew that if that happened that would have changed everything forever. If he was confiding in another woman, im sorry but i couldnt have gotten past that, id rather my DP have a one night stand than an emotional affair.

I totally applaud your commitment to this man, but you are sending him all the wrong messages. You are telling him that its ok, he can go and have his freedom and his whatever it is he is chasing, and you'll just be there waiting for him when he condescends to come home. Well fuck that, you will never know if he will do it again (after all this isn't the first time) and you will wake up one day with no self esteem left, and it will be too late sad

Do you think I don't long for the romance, that my DP doesn't yearn for a life with no stress and no mortgage and no constant worry, never having any time off work because he is self employed and no work = no pay? That the constant demands of a family don't grind me down and i don't just want to break free from it all? The same for my DP. Of cocurse we do - its just that our love and our DD mean too much for us to put our own needs in front of it.

I think you'll wake up to this man soon and see him for the coward he is.

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 19:13:57

My husband is self employed and lost his major daily work contract at the end of March, just before he walked out again. I know and he knows that life is not stress free, but what we both need to do is to agree when to put work aside, ie not spend all night in the office, but make time to sit and talk together. This is what we did not do in the few weeks that he was back, despite us having talked and agreed its what we needed to do.

I am addressing the issue of the texts with him, he knows that he cannot turn to her, that he needs to turn to me. But these are only things that can be addressed ongoing if we get back together. We need to talk and keep talking and hopefully we can if we have both got everything off our chests and cleared the air once and for all.

I am sorry that you went through a bad stage and I seriously think that is what we went through, both of us ill and depressed, but too deep into it all to see what was actually happening at the time.

Obviously he should have talked to me rather than walk away and that is a big thing that we need to address so that it doesnt happen again if he comes back.

lucyellensmumnamechange Tue 08-May-12 19:24:22

I hope that you manage to sort things, but i really think you need to put a time limit on this otherwise this man is going to drag you down with him. I just find it so worrying that he has done this before.

Roxylox Tue 08-May-12 19:30:33

It sounds such a difficult situation for you OP and I can understand that you are frustrated that people cannot extend the understanding and forgiveness to your DH that you at the moment are trying so hard to do...

But what do you think he is saying to his best friends text-friendly wife? Do you think he is defending you as vehemently as you are defending him?

I imagine that there are people reading this thread that wish what I wish for you...

That he will wake up, realise he needs to focus his energy on his beautiful wife and child, man up, step up, and be part of the solution...

You are worthy of a partner that wants to be with you...he has to come to you wanting you ...

Please don't settle for any less...

Wishing you strength x

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 19:32:11

Well initially I thought I wont let it go past a couple of months, but the thing is it has only been, or it has already been, 4 weeks and we have just got to this point, from him walking away, telling his friend he was adament this was what he wanted, to him going out with me, having a good time, and starting to relax in his own home again. So if I still said now, 2 months, then thats only 4 weeks away... we are talking about going out several times, I have promised not to pressure him, so if we go out a couple more times, then I start to push him, Im going back on what I said to him and he will just freeze again....

The councellor that I talked to said it needs to be baby steps to let him catch up with me, and that I need to be patient, not push him and wait for him to come out of his headfuck.......

but yes understandably, this cannot go on for months and months as that wont be any good for anybody. Lets get his letter to me out of the way, see where the next few dates take us and then see where we are at....

I would hope that we carry on dating ok, then maybe have a couple of days out as a family, then maybe he comes to stay the weekend a couple of times, then ultimately moves back in. This isnt all about him, its about me and my daughter too and I need to do what is ultimately best for all of us and only the next few weeks can decide that one way or the other..

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 19:37:23

Roxylox - You are worthy of a partner that wants to be with you...he has to come to you wanting you ...

Thanks for that, that is something that I am coming to in my own head. If he doesnt want me, then there is no point in being with him or chasing him. After the initial panicky pursuit, I have stepped back a bit. Although I did hold his hand on the date, I let it go to see if he would make the first move next time and he did. and again on the sofa, when he was making a fuss of the dog, I moved away from him, thought fuck you then, make more fuss of the dog than me, only for him to pull me towards him and put his arm around me. I tried to be a bit aloof, not throw myself at him, so I could be sure that whatever was happening was because he wanted to not because he was too nice to hurt me by pushing me away or something.

The same the next day, I sat on the sofa, he could have sat in his old chair or beside me and he came and sat beside me and put his arm around me, so totally all from him again.

He is not texting me first, not the other way round. I have stopped updating my movements on facebook, so now hes like what are you doing, how is your day, etc, and a bit of flirty banter is building up on his part. I promised him no pressure, so need to stick to that and wait for him to come to his own conclusions

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 19:40:08

sorry that should say he is now texting me first!

oikopolis Tue 08-May-12 19:45:32

he left because he wanted to try with the OW. he probably thought the only reason she wasn't responding to his advances was because he hadn't left you.

so he left
called her and asked her what to do (hoping she would say, well let's give this a try)
she was compassionate and offered him a place to stay

he got all hopeful

but then when he was there, he realised, slowly (over about 4 weeks), that she wasn't interested in him.

so now he's back on to you. keeping you at arm's length, whining about how he doesn't want to be pressured etc. after all he wouldn't want to be on his own, because then he'd have to cook his own tea etc. he'll only leave completely when there's another woman lined up and ready to service his every need. for now, he'll keep you on your toes with dates and so on. nice and light. no need for him to actually work on the relationship, you'll do all of that for him.

it's all so sordid and pathetic really. it's hard to fathom what you would find attractive about this man, the way you describe him he just sounds so painful and cringey! and the fact that you are at his beck and call, constantly pre-empting his needs... he must be in heaven, no responsibilities, no pressure, just a nice comfy place to rest until he finds someone else he fancies.

lucyellensmumnamechange Tue 08-May-12 19:55:00

He'll be back - when his friend and OW are pissed off with him kipping in their spare room. Im sorry but this is not a game you are not 16, you are both adults with responsibilities. Life is not like a romantic novel with "dates" and loving sessions on the sofa. Its about all the stress and bills and washing up, whinging kids and looking like crap after a hard day.

Im sorry but enoughs enough, if this were me id be telling him - be back here, by the weekend, stuff moved back, getting back to being a family (You are too old for all this bf/gf bullshit) so that your DD can get back to normal and not wonder what the hell is going on (she must be so confused just now and this is NOT going to help with her behaviour issues thats for sure).

AnyFucker Tue 08-May-12 19:56:33

you are treating him like a nervous terrier that has to be introduced to family life in well-managed stages

what is he ?

a man or a mouse ?

he is really quite pathetic, but clever, yes so very clever

he uses his patheticness as a weapon....how you can respect this nobhead I have absolutely no idea

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 19:57:04

I do not want to keep repeating myself here, but there is NOTHING going on with OW. He went to stay with them because they are his only friends in this area, despite moving here over 10 years ago, he is so shy and lacking in confidence that he does not make friends easily. All of our friends near us are couple friends, none of the men are his close friend. His mother is a cow and he did not want to move in with her.

He will not rush out and find himself another OW. He is a painfully shy man where women are concerned, he had his first serious relationship at the age of 27. He spent around 7 years with his first girlfriend (lived with her) and then had 2 short relationships after that before meeting me 10 years ago.

There is no way that he is easily going to go out and pick up OW, he does not have the skills or the confidence to do so.

He lived on his own for several years and is more than capable of looking after himself.

I love him because he is kind, caring, considerate, sensitive, funny, generous and loving. (when hes not having some kind of crisis like he is now!!) He is a hard worker, a great father and generally a lovely man all round.

oikopolis Tue 08-May-12 20:14:46

yes i know there is nothing going on the OW. yes i know he's shy etc.

that's why he couldn't actually ASK her to have an affair with him. he built up a huge fantasy in his head and then left you and went to her, hoping that she would fulfill the fantasy. and obviously, because he's quite a pathetic sort of person, she was not interested.

he only learned that after several weeks of hanging around like a lurker at her house, hoping she'd make a pass at him.

so now he's back with the only woman he knows who will mollycoddle and cosset him in the exact way he prefers...

maybe he won't find another woman, but i think he's made it quite clear that you're not his first choice. fgs he texted this woman 1000s of times about you, do you really think you're special to him?

men don't walk out on women they love unless they have a major psychological problem that requires more than cosseting and patting on the head and dating to solve.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 08-May-12 20:18:08

Just a word of warning about him being very shy - often they are the most vulnerable to having an affair, they are much more sensitive and susceptible to ego boosting attention.....

His relationship with his mother is also another red flag.

Affairs are often about the cheater's own issues and not about how happy they are in their marriage.

PooPooInMyToes Tue 08-May-12 20:19:00

you are treating him like a nervous terrier that has to be introduced to family life in well-managed stages

That's it exactly.

Charbon Tue 08-May-12 20:21:01

I wish you could read those text messages between them to shock you out of your denial. It would be painful, but it might cause you to wake up to the terrible manipulation you've been subjected to. It's so telling that you still daren't tell her husband about the volume of contact between his wife and her husband. He wouldn't be as naive as you, of that I'm sure and you know it, hence you won't tell him. I wonder whether you asked his brother how he would have reacted if your husband had been sending 1000s texts a month to his wife when he had his little crush on her?

I think he had a full affair with his friend's wife but she got cold feet and thought it was too much hassle. So he's started to think maybe if you both pretend nothing's happened, he can move back in.

But he'll never respect you and will do this to you again and again.

The person I feel most sorry for is your daughter. Her acting out is surely a response to having such weak, self-absorbed parents.

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 08-May-12 20:21:59

(I am not saying he definitely had an affair but he did have some kind of attachment with this woman and hopefully it was one sided. This needs to be explored should you decide to take him back.)

Charbon Tue 08-May-12 20:22:09

His wife and your husband

lucyellensmumnamechange Tue 08-May-12 20:26:19

yeah, really kind, sensitive and considerate! Hes a fucking shit father, he walked away from his DD to sniff the skirt of a OW

Roxylox Tue 08-May-12 20:26:56

skye
I understand that you are trying to create a set of circumstances in which he feels he can approach you and feel safe...

What others are responding to is that he should be working his arse off to provide a set of circumstances in which you feel safe enough to risk the prospect of trying again and therefore, by definition, risking the chance of him rejecting you again... because whatever his reasons, that's what he did.

Roxylox Tue 08-May-12 20:40:57

Just read that back and really didn't want to be harsh, but I do not have AF's balls of steel insight, but I am just so wishing that your DH could embrace the family he has, and stand shoulder to shoulder with you, to really have your back, and the difference you would feel if that were the case...

I am sure that your daughter would feel that too...

nkf Tue 08-May-12 20:47:04

I hope it works out for you. I really do. Good luck.

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 20:49:04

well Im not prepared to walk away from what has been 9 and 3/4 good years out of 10...... he did, but is already wavering after 4 weeks. If he came running back tomorrow, yes I would be pleased, but I would not want him to move back in unless he was sure, that is me taking control of the situation. I will read his letter, see what he has to say and then take it from there. The letter is supposed to be about his feelings on everything and why it got to the point that it did, its not about blaming me for everything, or if it is, then at least I get a chance to explain misunderstandings etc, which is a lot of what happened last time and I thought we covered it all but maybe not..... a huge misunderstanding was me shrugging him off in bed. I was just tired but didnt say and just pushed him away, he took that as total rejection (night after night when I was so busy with my work). . If I had only said at the time, Im sorry, its 1am and Im knackered, it would have been a whole lot better.........

all the little things added up until he felt that I really couldnt care less if he was here or not, so he left..... (the first time, after he came back things were ok mostly)...

even if we never reconcile, at least any misunderstandings can be cleared up from this letter.

lucyellensmumnamechange Tue 08-May-12 20:59:54

bangs head against wall shock

AnyFucker Tue 08-May-12 21:01:22

< hands LEM a crash helmet >

Charbon Tue 08-May-12 21:02:45

No they won't.

You cannot expect to go through life communicating by letters that appear to take him weeks to write.

There's a reason he's wavering - and it's not you. It's that the other option that he left for has been taken away.

One day you'll realise that people never value something they think they'll never lose. He has never had any reason to think he lost you and your actions have taught him twice now that he can walk out and you won't give up on him.

Everything you've posted about him makes him sound like an extremely self-absorbed, selfish individual. He is unemployable because he resents authority, he's lost a big contract as a self-employed freelancer, he bolts whenever life gets difficult, he chooses women to confide in because he thinks they are more easily manipulated than a male friend who would tell him he's up his own arse. He invades his brother's and his friend's relationships and takes their spouses away from investing in their own relationships.

I don't know how you can possibly think that this man is good father material.

lucyellensmumnamechange Tue 08-May-12 21:02:52

<dazed> confused

midwife99 Tue 08-May-12 21:04:59

confusedconfusedconfusedconfused

PooPooInMyToes Tue 08-May-12 21:07:37

I agree with Roxy.

PooPooInMyToes Tue 08-May-12 21:10:56

If he came running back tomorrow, yes I would be pleased, but I would not want him to move back in unless he was sure, that is me taking control of the situation.

No its not, that's you letting him come and go as he pleases. Perhaps he'll be back again once he's finished punishing you. He's never really lost you though as you are always there waiting with open arms, so he's learnt nothing from it. Nothing about what it would be like to lose you or about respecting you anyway.

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 21:19:23

I would like to point out that he lost his daily contract because the company got took over and changed the way the business was run and stopped using drivers for certain things, it was no fault of his own...

and there is nothing going on with OW, so please stop posting about that all of you. It is not an issue. I am not burying my head in the sand, I am totally certain that it has not happened.

He is writing the letter tonight, he just texted me.. My own letter took at least a fortnight to write as I kept reading it and changing it, so do you not think I should allow him the same privelige?

I do value myself and if he comes back, things will be different or there is no point.

Charbon Tue 08-May-12 21:26:17

You are the only person on this thread who thinks that texting another woman 1000s of times in a month and then going to live with her means that 'nothing is going on' so if you keep posting for advice, other posters are not going to stop mentioning the biggest elephant of them all.

The whole point we are making about the letters you are exchanging is that this isn't real-life. If it takes you both two weeks apiece to communicate your feelings to eachother and you can only do it in the written word either by text or by letter writing, your marriage is not going to survive and your poor little girl is going to be short-changed of parents who like most grown-ups have learnt to verbalise their feelings.

'If I had only said at the time, Im sorry, its 1am and Im knackered' Most people would get that or at the very least if they didn't they would ask

You are treating him like i'd treat my children if they were uspet about something. This is not all for you to fix, what has he initiated by himself to help your reconciliation? ( Trying to get into your pants doesn't count.)

This smacks of you pursuading him to come back by any means despite what you say. How are things going to be different if he deigns to return? What are you going to do to make sure the same thing doesn't happen every time he throws his toys out of the pram?

midwife99 Tue 08-May-12 21:31:07

I couldn't forgive my DH for texting another woman 1200 times in one month & then leaving me & DCs to live with her even if there was no affair. It is still betrayal to divulge such a huge amount of private information about your marriage to another woman & to take her advice.

midwife99 Tue 08-May-12 21:36:10

Can I just ask why you have started two different threads asking for advice? You seem very certain about what you want to do anyway.

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 21:38:27

well, all her advice has been to try and work it out, to talk to me, to get off his arse and sort himself out. she is really annoyed that he has walked out on us and has told him this.

I will stop posting as I am obviously annoying you all because I dont jump to what you say.

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 21:40:01

the first thread was about the problem, the second thread was about how to move on, but people have just merged the two and thats not what i wanted. I deleted the first thread as I wanted to change my name as I was afraid I could be traced by the other name. thats the only reason it was deleted. this was supposed to be a separate thread for help on how to move on, but sadly everybody is obsessed with OW and just wont drop it.

AnyFucker Tue 08-May-12 21:43:19

you may not wish to "jump to what we say" hmm but your stubborn-ness and single-mindedness is not currently working in your favour, in any way at all, and will probably be your undoing

have you actually taken anything on board ?

lucyellensmumnamechange Tue 08-May-12 21:43:50

Can you cope with not being his best friend? SHE is his best friend, surely you must be able to see that? It doesn't matter that he hasn't fucked her.

IF this was genuine frienship on her part, she and her DH would be saying enough is enough, go back to your wife - but they're not are they.

They are making a fool of you - all three of them.

lucyellensmumnamechange Tue 08-May-12 21:45:27

I am usually quite vociferous in defending partners on here, i think people are too quick to call affair, there are a lot of people who have been hurt and are biased against men. But I just want to shake you and punch your DH in the face. As for the OW angry

skyebluesapphire Tue 08-May-12 21:52:32

they dont want to turn him away as he has nowhere else to go, they feel that if he goes into a bedsit or something, then its much more final than being there for a couple of months... they think they are helping by giving him a temporary place to stay rather than pushing him into something more permanent - 6 month lease on flat etc... they are pushing him all the time to sort it out and come home.

I am his best friend, we just got lost for a while and thats what we are trying to sort out. Really sorry that I dont want to jump on your Divorce the Bastard Bandwagon !!

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 08-May-12 21:53:30

The reason why we won't drop OW is because its the bloody elephant in the room!

So sorry you can't seem to see this but then both OW and your H has done a great number on you...

midwife99 Tue 08-May-12 21:54:33

Sapphire - no one is obsessed with the OW. You're not "annoying" us! You have asked how to "move on" & you don't like the consensus which is - unless you totally accept his behaviour in every way & become totally compliant - he will leave again at the drop of a hat. I really hope things work out but I think you should stop asking for advice because no one is telling you what you want to hear. I hope your DDs behaviour improves too when things are happier & more secure at home for her sad

AnyFucker Tue 08-May-12 21:54:55

who told you how this couple feel, skye ?

have you only your H's word for that ?

MadAboutHotChoc Tue 08-May-12 21:55:53

I don't see anyone advocating divorce on this thread?

We are trying to make you understand what is needed for a successful reconciliation - at the moment its not looking good I am sorry as the real issues are not being addressed.

ItsMeYouSee Tue 08-May-12 21:58:45

Genuine question for you - Can you actually see yourself being able to ignore those text messages....and if so for how long?? How long before you start to question the whys and whats?? How long before the resentment builds up and life gets hard again for your "D"H.
I'm all for saving relationships, I'm there myself but you really are kidding yourself if you think you are going to be able to ignore this elephant. sad

AnyFucker Tue 08-May-12 21:59:20

skye, we are not saying you should immediately divorce the bastard your H

we are trying to make you understand that you are not helping yourself, you are not helping him and you are not helping your dd

not one person has said you are anywhere near making sensible decisions here....does that count for nothing with you ?

why should we care if your husband puts a welcome mat on your head and wipes his feet all over it ?

it's nothing to us

lucyellensmumnamechange Tue 08-May-12 22:01:26

"they dont want to turn him away as he has nowhere else to go" REally?? shock

As i have said before, i hate all the "leave the bastard" talk on here, but you are just backing yourself further and furhter into a corner.

I know it must be really difficult to hear but they are not helping, these "friends" they are facilitating him leaving you. They are not having him there because the alternative is a bedsit, he is too weak for that - he would coming running back to you with his tail between his legs, until next time

cenicienta Tue 08-May-12 22:17:37

OP, I'm really trying to stay with you on this and see where you're coming from

Everything we know about your H comes from what you've told us. No-one has actually met him and taken an instant dislike to him because he's too short / fat / ugly / has a stammer. I'd guess that most people on this thread would have a negative view of him and tha can only be because of what you've said!

The issue isn't about him having an affair!

To me there are 2 issues really:

1) That HE should be the one doing ALL the running here. Doing everything in his power to win you back! That's evidently not happening!
2) Texting ANYONE other than a new legitimate romance over a 1000 times a month is NOT NORMAL and that is something that you just can't ignore.

Many of us on here don't want to see your marriage break up needlessly. We want to see you in a healthy respectful relationship where you are treated with the respect and honour you deserve. Where you feel confident to be yourself, your worst at times, knowing you are absolutely loved and cherished.

Many posters have suggested that maybe you running after H isn't the way to cultivate that respect.

I really believe the majority really do want what's best for you. It's just very frustrating to see it from the outside! We want you to take control so that you might eventually have that respectful relationship you deserve, but you seem unable to even comprehend what that might mean.

Charbon Tue 08-May-12 22:26:27

You are not his best friend.

He's supposedly got one of those and he's taken to texting the man's wife obsessively.

If your husband was still in situ doing this and claiming there was nothing wrong with it and was also telling you that he wasn't in love with you anymore, then posters might well suggest you leave him.

But he did all that and then left you to live with the OW, so even that isn't an option.

All anyone has been trying to advise you is to stop being such a trusting doormat to a very cruel manipulative man and to put you and your daughter first.

But you think you know best despite not one poster agreeing with you.

Just answer one question will you though?

If there is nothing untoward in this friendship with his friend's wife and latching on to attached women is just something he does, why haven't you been open with her husband about the extent of communication? If there's nothing wrong with this behaviour, why can't he know about it?

Dozer Tue 08-May-12 22:32:12

A long time ago aged 21 I received a letter from an ex-boyfriend I'd been with for five years and been devastated to break up with, a month or so after the break-up. I had asked him to write to explain some things: he wasn't communicative in general so I hoped it'd bring out some deep love or something!

Two of my close female friends read and "decoded" the letter. I'd interpreted everything in it in his favour and with hope: they (gently but firmly) highlighted how things actually were. They said he was selfish, blaming me, didn't love me and had another woman in mind (the letter included a cliched reference to OW being the only one who understood his pain and sadness about me).

Hope you have some honest, loving friends to read your DH's letter with you.

clam Tue 08-May-12 22:48:48

Look, if you want him back, you want him back. But at least acknowledge just how many excuses you're making for his appallingly self-absorbed behaviour.

sunglasses Tue 08-May-12 23:39:55

Wow! Cant believe this thread is still going. You seem very certain of how things are and what you want so perhaps you don't need any more advice. I wish you well and hope we don't see a post entitled" I just received this letter from my DH.. so confused.. please help" etc.

izzyizin Wed 09-May-12 07:06:24

I have promised not to pressure him*

Cross-stitch that motif on 3 cushion covers and stuff them give them to the elephants to rest their bums on.

As for your bum, tell him to shape up or stay shipped out.

If you keep on overegging the cake, you'll simply be adding to the number of eggshells your h requires you to walk on in order to have the dubious pleasure of his company.

lucyellensmumnamechange Wed 09-May-12 09:33:46

If you do need support when you get the letter, we are all here - it has been very difficult not to judge this man based by what you have told us about his actions. Thats the thing, you have told us what he has DONE to you and your DD, people will judge that as cruel and selfish. I can't help but wonder how he has been with you over the years to erode your self esteem to such a level that you think this is OK?

I would love for this work out, but for me i would simply have to insist that he broke all contact with the OW "friend" and if that means he has to drop his BF as well then tough. I also agree with posters that say that her DH deserves be be made aware of the level of "closeness" that existed between them. Otherwise they are making a fool of him too.

No one here is judging you, i think everyone is frustrated and trying to open your eyes. I understand why you feel that you have to fight to the last. There is a big part of me that wants this to work out for you, but there is another part of me that just wishes this bastard would put you out of your misery and tell you that is over instead of stringing you along in such a heartless, weak and pathetic way.

PooPooInMyToes Wed 09-May-12 11:35:17

Have you told him that you are aware he always does a runner to a mates wife when the going gets tough? Personally i think that at the very least, if you are to agree to take him back he has to agree to attend counselling to deal with his need to do that. Otherwise you will be scared to live a normal life (with normal stresses) and will be treading on egg shells. He clearly has issues but i haven't really seen you mention that as such. Instead you are taking the blame. He has to take responsibility for how he deals with tricky times in relationships.

Are you going to make that a condition?

skyebluesapphire Wed 09-May-12 15:11:47

Yes, if he comes back, then we sit down and he agrees to tell me how he feels, we went through all this when he came back in Feb, but unfortunately he didnt give it long enough (6 weeks) so we didnt get a chance to talk about stuff, as he seemed very happy during that time! so a bloody good actor if he was unhappy again :-(

I have asked my husband to be honest with me, does he definitely want to go out with me, to see if we can salvage anything and he says yes. I said do not string me along and he snapped back, I said right from the start I wouldnt string you along...

It was the friends wife who told me that they dont want to kick him out as they feel he would then go to a bedsit or something rather than come home, which would mean a 6 month lease and a lot more cost to him, and as he is still so confused they feel that by him staying there, he is not rushing into anything too final. She says that he seems very happy after our date and a lot more positive about everything in general.

The level of texting between them as dropped, although there is some still which I would expect, but certainly nowhere near the level that it was before. I have discussed it with my husband, advised him that it was inappropriate, that while he was texting her so much he was not thinking about our problems, but about hers. I told him that I think he formed some sort of attachment to her, as an escape from his own unhappy life. He does accept this to a point, but does maintain that he didnt realise that he was texting her so much and that she usually texted him first so say Im having a shit day or something and then he would text back. I said that if was texting her about how unhappy he was it was very unfair to me as he should have been telling me how he felt. He accepts that he was in the wrong there.

We are going out again on Saturday. Once I have read his letter, I can address his insecurities and issues and we can get them out in the open and sort them out. At the moment, I dont completely know what I am dealing with.

But I am a lot stonger now after 4 weeks apart and as much as I want him back, it needs to be right for all of us, he cant come back otherwise.

lucyellensmumnamechange Wed 09-May-12 15:25:18

I hope it works out for you i really do, but i just can't see how you can progress while he is living with the OW. SHE is the reason he left, he will never be able to think straiht until he is away from her. I cannot believe you are letting her manipulate you.

midwife99 Wed 09-May-12 15:32:57

"he can't come back otherwise" Hooray!!

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 09-May-12 15:42:08

Have you ever seen any of these texts?

The thing is that you are having to take their word for it.

Also why doesn't the husband know about the level of texting? Think someone has already asked this but you haven't responded.

Him saying he wouldn't string you along isn't exactly a guarantee, what exactly is he doing to help things, other than this letter that is? It's all so sad. sad

I have a sneaky feeling that if you try to address any of it he's going to say you are pushing him/going over old ground, nothing has changed, i hope this letter is the magic wand you are hoping for but a relationship never works if there is only one person invested in it.

The fact that he is already snapping about you questioning him is fucking ridiculous, he's the one in the wrong here regardless of your 'faults'

skyebluesapphire Wed 09-May-12 15:56:54

I have seen some texts and emails and whilst whats there is at worst inappropriate, a slightly flirty comment possibly, there is nothing at all about meeting up, being together, etc. The stuff that I have seen is all about supporting her through a bad day. There is nothing at all that indicates that there is something going on. I asked if her husband knew about the texting and my H said yes, when I said was he sure that he knew about the number of texts, my H said well probably not, but then he hadnt realised himself how many texts there were. She apologised for her actions, said she didnt think of the consequences when she was texting my H so many times. she said that she was just having a really bad time and that my H had become a good friend to her. She said that if her H had done that to another woman, then she would have ripped his bollocks off........

She is not the reason that he left, he left because he was unhappy about a lot of things and had been unhappy for a long time. looking back, way before any of the texting started, he was saying things like he felt he couldnt ever do anything right and he didnt know how much more he could take. I remember him saying these things, but I didnt take much notice at the time, although I do remember once thinking, shit, Im going to drive him away if Im not careful....

I am not trying to take the blame for everything, far from it, however I do have to accept the part that I played in him walking away. We can only fix it if we both accept our issues and deal with them!

cenicienta Wed 09-May-12 16:05:24

We can only fix it if we both accept our issues and deal with them!

That is exactly the point!

I don't think he will ever do that!

Have you 2 ever been really honest with each other? Like really honest?

I think probably not!

This thread is actually depressing me, I get a heavy feeling in my chest every time I read your posts, like watching awful suffering on the news, or in real life.

You just can't see it can you?

Charbon Wed 09-May-12 16:51:15

She is not the reason that he left, he left because he was unhappy about a lot of things and had been unhappy for a long time.

That's not what you said on your original thread, which I saw but was too busy to post on. According to you on that thread that has now been apparently deleted, everything was fine until he gave the OW a lift to university and started texting her obsessively, building up incrementally over a period of months to over a thousand in one month.

Neither your husband nor the woman wants her husband to know how many texts were being sent and if you truly believed that this behaviour was acceptable and normal, you'd tell him.

You're re-writing history because you'd rather believe that you made your husband unhappy and can fix this by being a stepford wife than the reality that he's unfaithful and there's not a damned thing you could have done to prevent it, either then, now or in the future. That's your choice but the only person in this mess who doesn't have a choice is your daughter - and you are failing her.

LaMeuf Wed 09-May-12 17:04:57

'He is still so confused?'. How old is he, 12?

OP I am not going to waste my time telling you more things you don't want to hear, save to say I agree with all of the excellent advice you've had over each of your 2 threads. Why would you lower yourself to chase after this utter loser?

I am very sorry you are in this position and I hope the situation resolves itself satisfactorily soon.

QueenieLovesEels Wed 09-May-12 17:21:42

You are not being entirely honest.

I have read your other thread.

You are twisting things.

Why?

oikopolis Wed 09-May-12 17:27:47

but you said originally that the 1000s of texts were HIM being supported by HER.

now it's the other way round?

Mumsyblouse Wed 09-May-12 17:35:07

Why are they still texting, they live together!

I don't get it, I just wouldn't have my husband texting anyone that much, or building a friendship with them, or investing all their emotional energy in someone else.

She is a double-crossing snake and probably can't believe her luck that you have not only not smacked her one (ok, had a go at her) for texting your husband thousands of times, but are still friendly and understanding of the situation.

I can't be bothered to post what I think of him, other posters have summed it up.

I don't think it matters really, the ending in all this is pretty plain to see, I just hope you do find your inner anger in all this which I actually believe is in there somewhere. I know what it is like to feel like you'll do pretty much anything to save a marriage, but this feeling doesn't last forever when you are being shat on from a great height.

I don't see how the daughter is massively affected, though, as long as regular contact is maintained with her daddy (which is what she is likely to end up with in the end). It is the OP's heart that is going to get broken (again).

AnyFucker Wed 09-May-12 17:40:13

if this OP ever finds her anger, this man had better make sure he is in another country at the time

such single-mindedness and self-delusion is really very scary indeed and requires a mammoth amount of mind control to achieve.....if it ever breaks it will be like Vesuvius going off in a tent shock

Charbon Wed 09-May-12 17:46:50

The daughter is very much affected. Last week she was showing her daddy pictures of when he lived at home and asking why he was living elsewhere.
She's being further confused by him coming to the house playing happy families and then going again. Every night she's going to bed hoping that he'll be there when she wakes up. But he isn't because apparently he's still a confused and tortured soul and not an adulterer hmm.

That's now.

In a few months or years time when this self-absorbed man returns home having got away with infidelity, normality gets difficult again and he latches onto some other attached woman, the whole thing will repeat itself and the little girl will suffer again.

She is being harmed.

nkf Wed 09-May-12 17:52:25

You can't ignore an elephant in the room because it's too big and it doesn't belong there.

If you really want advice about repairing a marriage after such a shock and betrayal, MN isn't the place. You need a counsellor, therapist or some belief in something like Christian penitence and forgiveness.

There are probably steps you can take and things you can do and marriages do survive, if by survival you mean not ending.

But MN isn't the place to find it. As you can see, most women think you're making a mistake to even bother.

AnyFucker Wed 09-May-12 18:07:45

nkf, do you think this lady is doing the right thing ? genuine question.

Mumsyblouse Wed 09-May-12 18:08:34

I don't like some of the remarks on these threads, where people going through crises and difficulties in marriages, or splitting up, are made to feel like they have to carry the entire weight of their children's behaviour and future modelling of relationships through these times. Children act up and are badly behaved for all types of reasons, children also get their role models from all the relationships around them.

I think the OP is being an idiot, but I don't believe she should get rid of her husband and prevent him coming back 'for the children'. She should certainly try to manage the situation to create as little distress as possible, but that's true of all people going through everyday crises, difficult patches and nasty divorces. There's nothing to suggest in this that he doesn't want to be a good dad or that their relationship shouldn't continue, wherever he is living. It doesn't need to be 'confusing' if handled correctly, at least not more confusing than your parents splitting up for ever when you are a small child.

She should protect her own heart, as that is what is going to get broken.

cenicienta Wed 09-May-12 18:14:37

I don't think that's true that most women think you're making a mistake to even bother!

I think most women think the way she is doing it is a huge mistake. This marriage very possibly could be saved and even transformed into something much much better, but that won't happen if the OP continues in her current course of actions!

The advice on here seems to be mainly aimed at the OP seeing herself differently, having more dignity and start taking some serious control. Not letting this poor confused soul walk all over her!

Mumsyblouse Wed 09-May-12 18:33:02

I just wanted to clarify my last post: I absolutely DO think you should use the 'for the kids' argument where there is any violence, abuse, nasty atmosphere to live in all the time. I am not against that argument, just that here, it seems to me that the OP's husband is crap and silly and runs for the hills if called to account, and that the primary issue should be for the OP to think about how to improve her marriage, if she wants that, or leave when she finally admits what an idiot he's been. Shielding the children emotionally is important whenever you have marital difficulties even of the regular kind.

PooPooInMyToes Wed 09-May-12 18:45:28

The stuff that I have seen is all about supporting her through a bad day.

So why couldn't he support you while you were working loads and trying to deal with your daughter?

MadAboutHotChoc Wed 09-May-12 18:49:51

Mumsy - I think that is a naive view.

Its amazingly scary just how many children absorb values, beliefs and patterns of behaviour from parents when growing up and how similar their future relationships are to those of the parents.

I agree its confusing for children to see their parents coming and going - how is that supposed to make for a stable home life?

AnyFucker Wed 09-May-12 18:52:43

I totally agree that you could not hide from a child that it's mother is demonstrating that women are put on this earth to coddle and mollify immature and selfish men

not a good model, by a long, long way

AnyFucker Wed 09-May-12 18:53:21

my mother did it...it did me no good at all during my formative years

nkf Wed 09-May-12 19:40:23

AF, I think she is doing something enormously difficult and possibly not worth doing. I know because I tried to do something similar and gave up. I also know that I would have hated this sort of thread at the time. I think people are too harsh and unsympathetic on these sort of threads. It's all, he's a shit and get yourself some self esteem and you'll damage the kids.

That would be because

1 he is a shit
2 she does need to work on her self esteem
3 it is damaging to kids

nkf Wed 09-May-12 19:45:26

I also don't think MN can help her on this. If she wants to try to make it work, she needs a different source of support. Because, on this site, the thread will fill up with strident voices, telling her she's wrong, all wrong. Probably what her husband says all day. When he can be bothered to communicate that is.

OP, where are you now cannot last. Nothing this unstable can. I hope that the road you take leads you and your daughter to a happier place.

AnyFucker Wed 09-May-12 19:49:38

Fair point, nkf

I agree this thread is not helping the OP, from her POV

because she wants something that cannot happen...just one poster to tell her she is doing the right thing

"another source of support" would mean mealy-mouthed platitudes aout how weak men need us strong women to hold everything together, I expect, that would help her even less

that's what I like about MN...it doesn't buy into that shit, as a rule

Mumsyblouse Wed 09-May-12 19:53:41

But many parts of the ups and downs of relationships are damaging to kids, lunless you are perfect parents. I just think all this 'putting the kids first' stuff is a bit strange in this particular thread, and I think blaming the OP for her dd's behaviour was really nasty, as plenty of children are defiant and difficult, so what?

I am not saying that how your parents model your relationships doesn't affect you, but really, who can have the type of perfect relationship where they can guarantee it won't affect the children? I don't think that getting rid of her husband permanently will screw the child up any less, actually your daddy leaving when you are 7 is devastating full stop. Who is to say that the devastation of a few uncertain weeks is worse than the devastation of his permament leaving? You simply can't say, and like most things, you can try to keep the situation as stable and nice as possible, with him visiting as much as possible and no badmouthing whatsoever.

The more you paint this man as a monster, and cry 'think of the kids', the less this situation feels plausible to the OP who is a master at denial I think taking low blows about people messing up their kids when they are doing what many of us do, trying to work out whether to save a relationship misguidedly in my opinion is over egging the pudding. All parenting is messing up your kids, that's the funny thing about it.

nkf Wed 09-May-12 20:10:59

I think you don't help build someone's self esteem by telling them they have none. I think she's asked and it's fair to give a point of view. But one poster called her an idiot! I think that's the sort of statement that the anonymity of the forum lets loose. I also don't think it's fair to attack her as a role model for her daughter. Nobody has to hide what they think, I agree. It's an open forum. But I wish it stayed as a forum and became less of a bear baiting ring.

Abitwobblynow Wed 09-May-12 20:34:18

Gees, I am glad people are being called on their cruelty and harshness here, why was nobody doing that on my post!

Sapphire, sending you lots of love and strength.

I see lots in your text about him promising stuff in the future... hmmm know that one

Can I just tell you: you won't get that letter. You won't get it.

If by some INCREDIBLE miracle (and please tell me if I am wrong) you do, it will be all about how sad he feels, and what YOU have done wrong.

I am not going to trash him, or you, because I know how hard this all is, to turn away from love and hope and see things as they really are; so I just wish and send you the same from the start:

I wish and send you lots of love (for yourself, forget him) and strength (to bear the pain and learn from it).

PooPooInMyToes Wed 09-May-12 20:43:06

I agree with mumsy.

PooPooInMyToes Wed 09-May-12 20:43:44

Abitwobbly. What post do you mean?

PooPooInMyToes Wed 09-May-12 21:05:15

OP. Sorry to keep posting, you must be fed up of me! Can you just explain though what blame you think you have on your part?

From what i can tell its . . .

That you were working too hard.

That you were tired and stressed.

That you turned down sex at 1am without an explanation as you were too tired to explain.

You couldn't cope with the housework on top of your stressful job and daughter.

You were stressed by the difficulties you were having with your daughter.

You weren't all happy and sweetness and light due to things already mentioned.

. . . I still can't really see how you are to blame for your husband leaving. These are normal parts of family life.

Good for you for doing the parenting course! I think perhaps more people should, including me!

Catrin Wed 09-May-12 22:05:55

Am de lurking to share the bare bones of my experience...
Married for 14 years. He has been through work problems, money problems.. it escalated, he had an affair. He walked out last April and the bottom fell out of my world. I tried and tried and tried. We dated. He moved back in. We went away with Dd (now 6) and tried to play happy families.

But... I was just pretending. I thought that if I pretended enough for the 2 of us I could fix it. But I couldn't. The intimacy and trust had gone. If he so much as looked at his phone, I felt sick. He told me he wanted me, but he didn't. He wanted his old life, minus the hassle. But not ME, actually ME. I was his fall back really.

I do believe he still loves me and I love him, but somewhere along the way we are not in love anymore and I asked him to leave for good - 6 weeks this weekend. Last April, I thought I would die with the pain. Now... indifference. I am NOT suggesting for a second my way was right, but I had enough time to get to my own decision. For you, it is still new. I have, realistically, had a year to get to this point. And now, it feels good.
Apologies for the essay. Give yourself time. Look after your little girl. And wait a bit before you stick a plaster on the top. I wish I had.

skyebluesapphire Wed 09-May-12 22:07:51

I dont see how I can be totally blameless? It takes two and all that. I didnt tell him exactly how I was feeling either, I just expected him to see how stressed out I was. He would come home some nights and I would barely speak to him, thats how bad it was. Why would anybody want to come home to someone who cant even be bothered to say hello, how was your day?

If I were to sit here and say I am perfect, none of this was my fault, then I think that would make me sound pretty awful...

The texts turned into a mutual support thing, originally he texted her to make sure she was ok after she broke down over the baby, then at some point as the texts escalated, he was telling her about his problems too, but it all started with him supporting her. I knew that he was texting her as he was concerned about her, but of course had no idea of the level of texts as they built up. We discussed it again tonight actually and I told him it was wrong and a kind of escapism. I am not trying to change history, I have moved on from the texts because there is nothing going on there. They are still texting now because if he doesnt get a job come in then he can let the dog out and she doesnt need to come home lunchtime, or he will text her to let her know if he will be home for tea as she puts food back for him.

He is writing the letter, it is not about blaming me, it is about how and why he feels the way he does. He has also told his friends that he is thinking about coming back, whereas 4 weeks ago, he was ademant that he wouldnt. The grass isnt greener, and they think that he is starting to see what life will really be like without us.

It is for the sake of my daughter that he will only be coming back if he is certain. 4 weeks ago I would have had him back no matter what, but I can see now that he can only come back as long as this is not going to happen again in a few weeks. It is heartbreaking for her, today she gave him a picture to make him happy so he will come home again. But how can I stop that? If I stop him from seeing her here, then he probably wont be able to see her in the week. We live 25 miles from the nearest big town, the local small town only has pubs open past 5.30pm. He would have just about enough time to take her to McDonalds then home again. At least if he comes in here he can take her out on her bike and play in the garden with her. I am trying to do what I think is best for her during this period. If he comes back it wont seem so alien if he has been having tea a couple of times a week and putting her to bed.

cenicienta Thu 10-May-12 00:07:50

OP you do come across as a little bit defensive. As I've said before you were the one who gave us all the info in the first place, but as the thread goes on you have become a staunch defender of your h.

That's not a bad thing. Just that you started posting because you wanted help and support, and even advice. But you've taken a "back off I'm the only one who can possibly know what to do" stance and maybe that is what is winding people up.

There has been some great advice on here but I don't see that at any time you've even considered taking it.

On other threads where the OP genuinely is looking for help and advice, there seems to be a lot more openness to accept the good advice and reject the bad, instead of the OP trying to prove that everyone else is wrong.

You even started another thread. But even if you hadn't mentioned some of the background we would have all known it was you from the way you are so defensive.

I think most people do genuinely want to help you reach a solution that is best for all involved. If that is reconciliation then great, but under the right circumstances.

Even if every now and then you said "thank you poster for that advice / experience. I really appreciate you sharing that. That must have been awful. What did you do in the end..." or something like that.

Charbon Thu 10-May-12 00:15:13

Did you keep a copy of your old thread, because I'm fairly certain that according to you on that you said that as far as you were concerned, everything was fine with your marriage until he dropped a complete bombshell that he wasn't sure of his feelings for you and was leaving - and that this happened the month after he had first spent some time alone with his best friend's wife. His reasons were apparently that the house was untidy and you made sarky remarks. He then relented and came back for 6 weeks, the texts to the friend's wife escalated to enormous quantities and he left again 4 weeks ago to live with her. I think I also recall that the woman concerned left her previous husband because she was having an affair with her current one, so this woman has got antecedents for deception.

My take on their text contacts during the day are more like: Him - "I've got no jobs today so we've got the house to ourselves" and her: "I'll leave work early then".

If you have saved your old thread, you really ought to read it because you are writing a very different version of events about your marriage on this one.

I can guess why you're doing that - you feel the need to control this and so you've decided that you were responsible for him leaving. Since you can control your own behaviour and not his, you possibly think that if you re-write your memories you can find cause and effect. So if you are more accommodating in the future and give him enough attention, you can stop this happening again. But you can't, because I'm as certain as I can be having seen your posts on the previous thread that your behaviour and your relationship isn't the problem here. The problem is that he fell in love with someone else and you as an individual cannot control that. You can try to turn into superwife but it wouldn't make a difference.

What you're not factoring in it seems is that you did all that in the 6 weeks he was back and it made no difference. That's because his heart was elsewhere and nothing you could have done would have stopped that. You're also not thinking logically about why men suddenly and without warning leave relationships when there are children involved. There was no warning, no attempts at counselling, no dialogue at all in fact. He just dropped the bombshell and went.

I think on your previous thread all the early posters straight away called "OW" and then you belatedly revealed that he'd been texting his friend's wife since the beginning of this year. Posters didn't even need that salient bit of information before they came to that conclusion.

No-one is perfect and faultless in a marriage OP, but neither was your husband. You know yourself that if there are difficulties, you try to resolve them especially if there are children at stake. It's what you are doing now isn't it? What most people don't do is to reveal for the first time that they are unhappy, leave the same night and refuse to discuss the issues.

Unless.....there is someone else to go to.

cornflowers Thu 10-May-12 09:58:33

charbon, that really is a very insightful post. I actually think it goes some way to explaining the sort of cognitive dissonance that many people (myself included) appear to have experienced when reading the op's posts.

CervixWithASmile Thu 10-May-12 13:22:23

And to add to al of the above, the first time he seriously shows any interest in repairing things is when OW happens to be away for the weekend.

QueenieLovesEels Thu 10-May-12 13:32:11

Totally summed up my take on this Charbon.

OP is in denial.

ItsMeYouSee Thu 10-May-12 15:14:30

Theres a script cheaters follow which is rewrite the history of their marriage to somewhat justify their behaviour, as in "I turned to so and so because I couldn't turn to you". I think you are so absolutely terrified of loosing your H that you are doing this for him. sad

All of us that have been cheated on understand the horror and overwhelming pain that goes with the discovery of an affair. But to sucessfully move on from that you have to go through it, otherwise it will raise its ugly head over and over again. When he does something to annoy you, when he's running late, when hes texting on his phone your resentment will build. He won't understand this because you havent dealt with it...you've tried to bury it. You have to examine all behaviours that led to this sorry outcome. You are just examining yours and making excuse after excuse for his. This is not a decent man, despite you desperately trying to tell us that he is. This is a man that walked out on his wife and small child with no by your leave.
This is a man who left you and your daughter with no explanation other than "I don't love you anymore" - what a horrid thing to spring on the partner of your child, even if its true, decent men would talk, talk and talk somemore. Trying to explain, the reasons behind his decision and find a soloution that works for all - with the least disruption for your child. He didn't he just upped and left, to move in the OW who he'd been texting extensively.
You say you have moved on from the texting, that its nothing...1200 texts in 1 month is not nothing...it's (averages) 40 a day for 30 days and whilst he was doing this nothing he checked out of your marriage...supposedly helping her through a rough time in her life...good for him!..but who was helping you??? Why wasn't he talking to you about the state of your marriage..why was/is he investing so much of himself into someones elses problems when you had problems of your own??
You need to get angry OP. You are trying to bury it or worse still blame yourself for it all.

What is he doing whilst you are in turmoil???
Leaving you hanging for a some pointless letter that you desperately want to contain a miracle.

....and as for texting her to tell her if he'll be in for tea angry...give me strength..better still..give you strength!

How can you stand it???

oikopolis Thu 10-May-12 16:10:53

Charbon i certainly remember that thread in the same way you do.

OP you don't even have to admit anything here, keep it to yourself and continue to defend him here if you must, but PLEASE just start quietly preparing for the worst. don't pin your hopes on him.

maybe we've ALL got the wrong end of the stick, it's unlikely but not beyond the bounds of possibility, but even so it's better to lower your expectations and be hurt less.

midwife99 Thu 10-May-12 21:46:45

Gosh this situation is so exhausting. I don't know how you cope with it all OP!! Do you have any friends in RL (other than OW & her husband) who can truly support you in an unbiased way?

skyebluesapphire Fri 11-May-12 02:30:02

sod the elephant, it looks like its really over....... Im going to start a new thread, called that............ Had the letter from him earlier and he says its over... bastard.... no more comments on here please..............

izzyizin Fri 11-May-12 02:40:41

Although you've said no more comments, I want you to know that I'm very sorry that you've been taken for a ride by a man you've tried so valiantly to understand and make allowances for, and have defended in the face of fierce criticism.

Posting again isn't advisable as there are benefits to be had from continuity, not least the fact that you'll be able to chart your own progress on one thread.

skyebluesapphire Fri 11-May-12 02:44:11

ok, I just started another one, as I didnt want to keep seeing the title about reconciliation, but feel free to keep posting on here. There is a detailed explanation on the other thread which I will copy to here.

skyebluesapphire Fri 11-May-12 02:45:20

So, after our great date on Saturday and lovely day on Sunday, tonight he emails me his letter which basically details how unhappy he was, how long he had been unhappy, all the things that made him unhappy.

He says that I was so stressed out it was impossible to talk to me and I took it out on him and my daughter. He says that when he was ill I didnt care (I was ill myself at the same time). He felt that he was doing most of the housework and I didnt appreciate it. I spent too much time on facebook and tv (he was on the computer every night). I was too controlling because I organised our entire lives and we were always busy.

Now that he is on his own he is happy making his own decisions, does not feel pressured, he likes living in town with everything in easy reach. I never supported him in his work.

He enjoyed the date last week, but still feels no desire to come back at present. He said that since the date I put too much pressure on him and have got my hopes right up again and he accepts the blame for that for giving me mixed signals and false hope..

I telephoned him after getting the email and I asked him where this left us, is he saying its over or what, as we were supposed to be going out on Saturday. He said maybe leave it a couple of weeks, so I pushed him and said but do you want to do this, honestly, do you think it will make a difference and he said no.

So I guess that is the end of my marriage then. I said if thats what you are saying then divorce is the only route now and he said I dont want to get divorced, its only a bit of paper. I said no it isnt, its the closure I need to be able to move on and hopefully find somebody else in the future.... I said did he want to start it or me and he said its up to you. So looks like I'll be taking control of that one then..... I told him that we need a more formal footing for access now, he wont be able to come in the house any more and put her to bed etc.

I wrote him a long email back, addressing all the points in his letter and also laying blame on him, which I didnt do in my first letter.

I am so gutted that my marriage is over, but he is being very selfish and cowardly.

cenicienta Fri 11-May-12 02:55:22

Oh, I'm so sorry! I can't imagine how you must be feeling.

You sound so much stronger. Well done on making things clear, particularly about formal access and him not coming into the house anymore.

Sounds like he would have been happy to string you along for a lot longer. Well done for making a stand and for not taking the blame. If every husband walked out because his wife spent too much time on facebook / mumsnet, there'd probably be very few marriages left in the world!

Will take a look at the new thread

izzyizin Fri 11-May-12 03:09:22

He's being selfish and cowardly because that's what he is, honey. That's what he's always been and it's probable that's how he'll always be.

I know you've resisted any notion that the ow may be considerably more to him than a kindly soul who's being doing her level best to mediate, but the fact that he only agreed to spend time with you when she was away with her h suggested otherwise.

In addition, the fact that he's changed his tune considerably from the man who was making advances towards you over the weekend suggests that he is in thrall to her and dancing to her tune.

He's a lowdown, lying, twunt and, now that you've spilled your guts yet again responded to his email, I hope that you will go absolutely no contact with him other than brief and businesslike conversations/texts to arrange his contact with your dd which must take place outside of your home.

izzyizin Fri 11-May-12 03:17:19

He has also told his friends that he is thinking about coming back, whereas 4 weeks ago, he was ademant that he wouldnt. The grass isnt greener, and they think that he is starting to see what life will really be like without us

Did you get that information from the ow? Now that he's made it clear he's not coming back, are they going to kick his arse into a bedsit or are they going to carry on with this unhealthy unholy menage a trois indefinitely?

sadanduseless Fri 11-May-12 05:18:00

The post by It's Me You See made me cry! Have been there, too! So sorry, OP that you are going through such horror; best wishes, x

NicNocJnr Fri 11-May-12 05:51:23

SkyBlueSapphire I know I said cheerio earlier in this post and it may have looked like I just wasn't that into you but that's not the case. Many of us could see this coming and how deliberately hurtful his actions were and were desperately sorry you were having to go through this but baffled at your stance. You stuck to doing what you thought was right.

I have to say I totally admire your courage in coming here with this new information after fighting so valiantly to defend your corner. Particularly as he has actually done what was predicited by a pp (who it was escapes me). I really do applaud your acceptance of this and your demands of an honest answer from him. I hope to see no I told you so type posts because you deserve greater respect than that for your bravery and biting of the bullet.

He has behaved appallingly and although it probably doesn't seem like it now you will be a happier family free from his toxic self. It also gives you the freedom to meet somebody who deserves the effort you put into this and will treat you with respect. His reluctance to formalise divorce proceedings was absolutely classic and yet another marker of his personality.

I hope the stability of a final decision will allow you closure and mean you can move on to a happier and more fulfilled life. I also hope once the hurt has abated you will come to see how much more you and DD deserve.

EdithWeston Fri 11-May-12 06:53:21

OP, you posted earlier in this thread: "even if we never reconcile, at least any misunderstandings can be cleared up from this letter".

I think that is what happened. He has told you that he wants this separation and does not want to reconcile. It doesn't really matter whether or not he is selfish or cowardly; what matters is that you now have clarity.

I really do hope you find a stronger and better future.

izzyizin Fri 11-May-12 07:07:21

You may recall that I had the following exchange with Cervix on Monday in relation to the attention your h had shown you over the weekend:

CervixWithASmile: 'This will sound awful but I think the likely scenario is the other woman has given him the brush off'.

izzyizin: 'I doubt it, Cervix.
The ow is away for the weekend with her h, most probably fulfilling some longstanding engagement or other prebooked event, and I suspect that she's given the OP's h permission to amuse himself in her absence knowing full well she can reel him in again if he looks like wriggling off her hook'.

I also made a further comment later that day:
'I find it significant that he agreed to go on a date with you and has continued to pay you some attention while the ow and her h are away.
The acid test is whether he wavers when they return - and whether he invites you back to 'his place' for a cosy foursome'.

I derive no satisfaction in reproducing the above and have done so purely in the hope that you will see the need to cease communicating with the ow because, whatever she may be to him. she sure ain't no friend of yours, honey.

tribpot Fri 11-May-12 07:13:13

So sorry to read this, OP. Whatever else, this thread has always shown you were determined to do all you could to put your marriage back on track and I'm sorry for you that this hasn't proven to be possible.

cleef15 Fri 11-May-12 07:35:04

I am so sorry. I would have done exactly the same as you-infact I did. My Dh left a few weeks ago for OW. Me and my children are getting on fine. The house is calmer and after mths of enormous stress my life is calmer. Good luck and stay strong.

midwife99 Fri 11-May-12 07:38:09

I'm so sorry that you have had this response from him. As I said before there are no told you so's. I know you're devastated but I hope you can now see how he was stringing you along & wasn't man enough to say "I want to split" instead of "snogging like teenagers"!! Of course it's true that you were desperately trying to change his mind by suggesting the dates & trying to transform into Miss Perfect to keep him but he has played with your feelings very cruelly. It's time to end this once & for all. Cut off contact with ex, OW & her DH. File for divorce for unreasonable behaviour, get the finances sorted & try to recover. You & DD deserve so much more than him.

AnyFucker Fri 11-May-12 07:40:44

I am very sorry, skye sad

MadAboutHotChoc Fri 11-May-12 07:41:37

So sorry sad at least you can say you gave it your best shot and fought as hard as you could x

nkf Fri 11-May-12 07:44:00

You now know all you need to know. Good luck as you move forward.

Roxylox Fri 11-May-12 08:06:52

Skye - so sorry you are having to cope with this sad

KirstyWirsty Fri 11-May-12 08:16:21

So sorry Sky ..

You will look back with relief that you didn't waste more of your life and self respect on this oxygen thief xx

Mumsyblouse Fri 11-May-12 09:06:12

I too am sorry, Skye, I can see why you went into denial and tried to fan any embers, but really, this fire was well out.

I would not speak with the wife of the H, they are not helping at all by giving him somewhere to stay, and god knows what else, it's made life very easy for him to leave. And that's without even addressing the issue of their inappropriate relationship.

I'm glad you got this letter and I think you will be too, in time, because the situation needed clarifying. I don't know why he messed you around and gave out mixed messages, you also read them the way you wanted as you desperately hoped your marriage would survive. But now you know he's blaming you, and his 'list' of wrong things is really so trivial in the scheme of a long marriage, and as you say, doesn't take account of your needs, that I think you have to assume it is made-up bollocks, quite frankly, and a justification for his bad behaviour. Even if it were all true, it would be the making of a short crisis and readjustment, not a divorce.

I agree with everything you are doing about getting this on a legal footing, proceeding with a divorce. Please surround yourself with people who will support you, real-life friends (not the other couple, obviously). You are a strong person and you will get through this. Brace yourself for more revelations, though, even if he doesn't run off with the wife, I wouldn't be surprised if someone else turns up pretty soon. Best of luck.

Charbon Fri 11-May-12 12:34:09

I'm sorry for your hurt Skye but glad that you've got clarity at last. Please take everything he lists as 'reasons' in that letter with a huge pinch of salt because it's bollocks frankly. There's only one reason he left and only one reason he's not coming back and it's in human form.

No more conversations about your relationship now. Only necessary contact from now on about your DD and press on with the divorce. Set up firm boundaries about where he sees your daughter and make your home with her inviolate. Don't even let him over the thresh-hold - he must now get used to being a single parent like you, with all the responsibility that brings.

lemonstartree Fri 11-May-12 18:24:28

I'm so sorry to hear this. He really doesn't deserve you; you tried so very hard :-(

gafhyb Fri 11-May-12 18:30:56

I'm sorry too.

Best of luck

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