Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide, which can point you to expert advice and support.

Feeling lost and lonely (ex had an affair and left us - WE ARE MOVING ON!)

(536 Posts)
Dee34 Sun 30-Oct-11 17:20:17

Hopefully, I have done this correctly?!

Old thread here Thread1

Hi All,

This is my first post on these boards, though I have posted my story elsewhere......I just cant seem to stop thinking and mulling over things and searching for answers

Bit of a long story, but to start from the beginning, on Tuesday 28th Dec my ex announced that he was not in love with me anymore (usual cliches about being best friends, love you but etc). This of course sent me into a tailspin as I had just endured an awful xmas at his parents in Scotland that he insisted we go to (dont get on with his folks as they have never helped us out with DS and ex always seemed to avoid confrontation and would never raise any issues directly with them which made for an increasingly tense atmosphere). For background, back in November when I knew I would not be able to hack another xmas there and so I suggested we stay here and have a little family xmas, he told me that I was playing with people emotions by changing my mind and that I could stay here at home if I wanted but he and DS (2.5 years old) were going to Scotland regardless!! I guess I should have sussed that something was a bit iffy but I just brushed it off at the time (by Nov, affair had been going on for a month and actually between Oct - start of affair - and the bombshell in Dec, there was a difference in ex's attitude which I only really pin-pointed in the last few weeks). Anyway, we had a terrible night on the 28th - lots of crying, very emotional etc. I asked him if he was seeing someone else and he said no. I asked him to swear on DS life (childish I know, but said this in the heat of the moment) to which he replied no, he won't swear on his life as he doesn't do that sort of stuff but he held his hands up and promised he was telling the truth. I of course believed him as for me this was all out of the blue..On the Weds, I was quite teary and by lunchtime ex was saying that he was confused, needed some space etc. I said how about he stay in a hotel nearby and come round every day to see DS, take him out etc. I even phoned up several hotels for him to check rates and availability! This was during DS nap and by the time I had gone upstairs to get him, ex had done a spreadsheet and had decided he wanted to go to San Francisco instead. Some fluff about always liking San Fran from work trips (he has been there several times in the past year for genuine work reasons). Again, naïve fool that I was I agreed to him going. We drew up a list of issues that we would both think and work through (usual - lack of sex, though we were trying for baby number 2, arguing, his parents etc) and agreed not to tell any friends or family about what was happening until we knew what was happening ourselves so no one could 'influence' us. So ex went to San Fran and DS and I stayed here (everyone assumed he was here with us during whole period). Anyway, as soon as he was in San Fran his tone and attititude completely changed and he became very distant (he was relaxing and not looking at the issues or given them any thought etc). I finally 'broke' on NYE and asked him what was going on etc and that's when he said he had met someone but that nothing had happened between them, which was actually a lie.

To cut a long story short, he came back on Weds 5th Jan, determined not to work things out. Over the weeks I have learnt that other woman lives and works in San Fran, they met on a work trip in mid Oct last year (in a bar - only kissed - met on the second to last day before he headed back to the UK), had DAILY contact from the time ex returned home, started sleeping together during his next work trip out there in early Dec (a 5 night work trip) and that he was with her all along when he abandoned us over NYE to go to San Fran - he was having a lovely holiday, planning his life with her, whilst I was here like a muppet, trying to get an appointment with a sex therapist (as I obviously had 'issues'!). She is 30 (7 years younger than us) and had moved to San Fran from Nashville in June last year, so seems to me like there were a couple of lonely fools that met over some cocktails? Ex keeps banging on about how she is leaving her life over there (not quite sure what she is giving up bar a job and accommodation compared to what he is gambling with) to be with him, how he loves her so much, never felt like this before about anyone including me - starting to make me a bit sick if I'm honest. If you added up all the days they had actually been together from mid Oct to just before that post xmas trip, it amounts to around 6-7 days actually physically together and they weren't even together 24/7 as he was actually working on these two work trips (have confirmed with a colleague). So it was just hooking up at night and having lots of fresh and exciting nookie? Rest has been built around a deep emotional attachement from their daily calls/text/emails/webcams etc (probaby worse than having random one night stands I think). I think that even now tally of days is around 16 or so when you add on the NYE trip. But that is enough for her to give up her life and job and move here to be with him and he reckons she will be here in 3 months time (until then they will be racking up airmiles). I just dont understand it at all......I guess they are soulmates or star-crossed lovers that were destined to meet?! Everyone keeps telling me that he will one day wake up and see what he has done or that they will break up as soon as she gets here, but the flipside is that they may be together for a long while and that is something that I am now trying to reconcile with - esp as she will effectively be playing stepmum to DS even though ex doesn't really know anything about her bar what she has told him and shown him during their limited time together (of course there is the very real possibility that he is even lying about dates and that this all started way before Oct. I don't know and to be honest, don't care now as all it would prove is that he is more selfish and a bigger cheat and liar than first thought)....

Throughout all of this, ex has been going on about he need to be happy and how he has acted out of self preservation. And he has variously been unhappy for the last few months, 6 months, 9 months, 15 months, 18 months depending on what mood you catch him in when you speak to him.....unhappy for so long that I didn't notice it and yet only gets the balls to leave once he meets someone else? I can accept that we didn't have a 100% perfect relationship, but we had been together for 11 years and of course share DS so am shocked and hurt that it ended in this way. For his part, ex varies between assuming no guilt and saying that the affair was symptomatic of our relationship to wanting to do 2010 over again and make different choices and regretting going to the US over NYE and for making us go to Scotland over Xmas (apparently, as I made the atmosphere so tense for everyone, this was the last push towards making him decide to leave us.....though he hasn't commented on how his dad did his usual show of drinking 2 bottles of wine on xmas eve and not bothering to get up until gone midday so we were all sat around waiting for him as usual...).

Anyway, since then things have lurched along. He has said some horrid things to me and treated me like a fool at the best of times. I think he is so deeply entrenched in his feelings for the other woman that he has forgotten I am DS mum (again, keep asking myself, how and why can he feel so deeply for someone he has spent barely any time with?). For me, the hardest part now is facing up to the reality that I will no longer see my son every day as we move towards shared access and custody. Also hard is the fact that this other woman will be interacting with DS as and when he is staying with them. I do secretly hope that they both go back to the US (surely to happen if and when they have kids and don't think she will wait around for long as she does seem besotted with ex for some bizzare reason - her FB profile is a pic of them in you guessed it an aiprort!...) and ex only comes back here on his tod to see DS for holidays (selfish I know, but I can indulge a fantasy I guess).

Is he deluded or am I???? He has been focused on work a lot and seems to have lost a lot of his friends and social life - which I had noticed and tried to encourage him to get back up again. I am just heartbroken that he could do this to us - esp the cold and calculating way he abandoned us to go to San Fran to be with her over NYE and the fact that in the last 7 weeks our house has now gone on the market (cant afford it myself) and I am now out looking for any old job to support myself (oh, forgot to say, that I had taken voluntary redundancy from a very well paid job last March with his encouragement! When I called him up on this he said, 'oh well, but you didn't like that job anyway!!!')......
Inbetween all the crying and anger, I do feel like I am going crazy........This is playing on my mind a lot now as he has just flown out today to go and see her in San Fran (6 night holiday, so will take their tally up to 21-22 days or so). It pains me that he will be taking her out for meals, whereas I had to practically nag him to death to book a babysitter for our anniversary in Dec ('nagged' him, as I usually arranged everything and was in need of some attention after his work trip - of course, I now know why he wasn't that bothered...). He will be having cosy conversations and intimate chats planning their future for when she moves here and talking about our son.

Does it get better? Does anyone have a crystal ball and can tell me they wont last....??!!

And how can I move on? I have tried the whole no contact thing - which worked for a while, but then I broke and sent him a long message about how he had ruined my life.... . I have read a ton of post affair books (including not just friends) but still struggle to make sense of it all some days. I know that he will definitely not come back as he has said this several times as he no longer loves me and the deep feelings he has for the OW. Trying to be positive but it is so, so hard some days........

Dee34 Sun 30-Oct-11 17:56:47

Thanks for the comforting words - means a lot (a huge lot - that is not proper English, I know, but hopefully you see what I mean). I guess I was panicking about letting myself down on this journey by even giving them a second glance on seeing them together and at such close range (I could see that she has a pink phone or a pink skin on her phone and could see the dull and blank expression on her face as she clocked who I was....). Also, I am not used to effing and blinding at the worst of times, so really felt odd and then ex's telling off via email (McNaughty - hmm, could have been him winding me up or leaping to defence of new girlf. Either way, am cheesed off - did they expect me to just wave back? My whole life and that of my DS has changed (hopefully for the better) so that they can be together and I am supposed to suck it up and carry on as normal.....). BUT, I am putting that to bed now and going to stop beating myself up about it...It's done and I wont be bringing it up again - with him.

McNaughty - yes, when we go over the whole access thing (seems like its neverending), I plan to 'enforce' the overnight in the week and every other weekend. Also, we need to agree on holiday weeks for next year whilst DS is still in nursery, so ex can plan his life/weddings/honeymoon around that and not come and ask me about dates every so often (though this is better than before when he just booked things or accepted work trips without checking with me first). That way, at least in the week, we should have zero contact (e.g. on a Weds I drop DS off at nursery, he picks him up, has him overnight and then takes him on Thurs am and I pick up on Weds pm.....this is what happened this week - hadn't seen him since Monday pm very briefly through to today, which was lovely). I have a 2012 'family' calendar and a 2012 diary for DS nursery bag to log things in...

mycherubs - he is 37, but looks a lot older (apparently the stress of all this has aged him so he says). He has always been a bit naive though.......and I guess at the moment he is enjoying the limelight as the stud that drew a girl all the way from the US to be with him....and I can imagine that he has surrounded himself with people that will not question his actions. So he has done no wrong.... hmm

Xales - yes, I believe that (well-rid of) more and more every single day. I am hopeful that by the time reality catches up with ex, I will be well and truly moved on, as advised here, to the point where I can blissfully walk by them without giving a toss or can bear the sight of ex......I still have to look at him and just wonder what the great prize is? It boggles my mind...

cenicienta - most definitely all puff from ex regarding him many laments. Though I think he is also the type that has to save face and it would be a travesty and shame if he ditched new girlf now after all she was worth all this in the first place. I cant see him living on his own (not with 30 year old on offer) and he cant come back here, so I reckon he is off to make the best of the dirty sheets on the wobbly bed he has made. He has broken down on the phone a couple of times in the past and talked about the out of control train he is on. But, as I told his sister back in Feb, he was not my problem anymore and they would have to pick up any pieces should it come to that as I was done with the utter rejection and the assertions of 'happiness' (ex wanted to be happy, his family want him to be happy, scots friends want him to be happy and no one seemed to have questioned him on what he was doing....hey-ho).

planet - feeling much better now, thanks to MN! Even managed to avoid the choc aisle in Lidl..... smile

I most definitely need to get a new phone.....pulled up to my house at 4pm and a text from ex (bearing in mind, I did not reply to his text at 10.30am)....'Still no nap sad' (complete with sad face). Thought he had sent a text to the wrong person as thrown by the 'still' as seemed like it was part of some other convo and as said, no contact from me. No, text was for me as DS not slept yet.....ex knows that the drill is to give him a quick 30min if he cant keep him up as this has happened in the past. Something I need to add into the access plan.....Managed to pick up a couple of brochures from phone shops whilst out and am sure I have an old work phone knocking around somewhere..Will check in Tesocos tomorrow - could have this little task sorted out by lunchtime tomorrow....!!

Patienceobtainsallthings Sun 30-Oct-11 18:19:14

Dee stop worrying what they think of you,please ,or anyone else on here,you are doing great and this guy has put u through so much.Can you stop these emails.Can you ask all communication goes through sol.It just seems to me he is still keeping you hooked in with unecessary emails.can u print these off and show access thru s

Patienceobtainsallthings Sun 30-Oct-11 18:27:12

Do access thru sol and take back control.ime this is the only way to deal with these guys.he loves that u reacted today,nice stroke for his ego.why bother trying to be civilised with a wanker.i tried it for 18 mths and it nearly killed me.I would change my email and hand it all over to sol or u will be doing this for years to come.he is only trying to rid himself of his guilt and ur not his counsellor?

Hi Darling

Firstly, I really wouldn't sweat it on the mouthing words (nosey Dolly says ooh do pray tell what you did) - it was a shock - you have not done anything like that before - and frankly you are human. The only thing I would say - as you have pointed out - is that it adds to your ex's 'gosh I have two women who lurve me' state of mind that he seems to have been hoping to cultivate by his insensitive comments to you about making mistakes etc but as you also say you don't care what she/he thinks about you so, so what? I know that there is a school of thought on these boards and in real life which has its merits that is along the lines of 'don't show them you are upset, rise above it, etc etc' but whilst I would not endorse acting like mental lunatic I have always been comfortable with people knowing that I have been dreadfully hurt and upset and I was not about to pretend that I was not touched by my ex walking out in the middle of freakin' IVF leaving his 2.5 year old - and if people are uncomfortable by that show of emotion then tough shit on them. I was also having a Skype conversation with a good friend in the UK at the weekend and she asked me if I would meet OW now given he is spending so much time with my DS. I said honestly that I always thought I would meet someone who was spending time with my son but at this point in time I felt that I would not be able to NOT say something negative to her so I was not going to - similarly if I bumped into her by accident (not really likely at the moment) I am not sure I would be able to ignore or rise above. Anyway, flippantly, and no doubt may offend some people but darling, the pink skin on her phone says it all ; ) .....

Spk soon

wiseoldowl Mon 31-Oct-11 19:13:36

I agree with Patience & Dolly, so what if you lost you're rag - you're human!!

I went no contact on seeing advice by MNers & it's the best thing I did to preserve my sanity. It is v hard and am VERY tempted over certain things, but if I saw them together I know I would flip my lid. Only being Mrs Calm now as don't have to face that reality at present. You are fine, you are keeping it real and I have great respect for how far you've come already.
Keep up the good work x

Patienceobtainsallthings Mon 31-Oct-11 21:32:26

I dont mean to sound dramatic by involving sol and making personal communication with him minimal ie only on handovers.Its just that you are getting on fine without him and just when you are getting stronger he dumps all his guilt on you (emotional vampire)sucks the joy from you,his negative energies make you question yourself again and leaves u feeling annoyed at yourself .All i know is when you jump off the carousel,he cant affect you in this way .By the time I saw X with gf in the car picking up the kids (X didnt tell me she was in the car ,i was just helping change over car seats and that is how we met lol)i just looked at her and said " ru going swimming 2 ? Have fun !!!!!"That was nearly a yr since they were together and 4 mths since he finally admitted they were together but nearly 2 yrs since he walked out .It takes time and space to become that cool.Turn back the clock and at ten months into my story, you looked up ANGRY in the dictionary and there was a huge picture of ME grin

springydaffs Mon 07-Nov-11 23:33:07

HOw's everything going with you lovely women?

Dee, your expletives made me laugh! Really, who cares what he (or she - who is she anyway??) thinks. So what? He's hardly shown himself to be balanced. I guess he was, or he seemed to be to you, but he isn't any longer - that's for certain.

I didn't laugh because of the pain - no way. I laughed because it is perfectly normal to have done that; plus you did it with a metal box between you, the safest possible way. Plus you mouthed it, didn't screech it. All-in-all I think it was the safest way to express your feelings. You have been admirably controlled, in the main, and maybe it was time for an outburst. He has shamed you with the 'get over it' line - inhuman imo - dressing it up in therapy-speak <vomit>. Now really, if his line in therapy (or whatever he wants to call it) had any sense or decency in it, you would be able to see the fruits of that in him. As it is, he's a fruitcake, so I really wouldn't put much store in what he thinks. I don't think you can expect to have processed what has happened at so early a stage after the immense betrayal (s!), so I really wouldn't give yourself a hard time over mouthing e

springydaffs Mon 07-Nov-11 23:33:54

what happened there?

...over mouthing e

springydaffs Mon 07-Nov-11 23:35:44

oh gosh, my pc has gone nuts

.. over mouthing expletives at him from one car to the next. (typed that quick)

Dee34 Tue 08-Nov-11 22:33:04

Hi - sorry not been on here for a bit.....

Patience Thanks for the advice about comms. I'll certainly mention that to new sol. Though emails have died down in the last few days (though can accept that they are just as likely to ramp up again given some other trigger etc). Yes, I do need to let go of thinking about what others think of me (particularly ex and new gf). But, I just feel so awkward/embarrassed at times. I know I shouldn't as I didn't cheat/cause this mess, but I guess with the nail of them actually getting married, I felt a bit like people would be looking at me saying 'see, something must be wrong with her if he is off marrying someone else so soon'. Total madness, I know and probably not helped by the fact that we all live in same area and I am on the same technology park as ex, so regularly see people who know both of us. I am getting better - I hope...Tried a 'thump boxing' class tonight - got out loads of aggression - think there will be aching arms round these parts tomorrow.....

Wise - thanks for the very kind words and empathy. Yes, need to keep it in perspective. It was the shock of seeing them in the car, up-front, knowing that DS was in the back and I had visions of them skipping off into happy family land.....I had to live around the corner from her for 3 months and never once did I have an urge to go over there and give her/him/them what for. Wouldn't have even occurred to me to be honest....

Dolly!!! Hmmm, I dont think what I said was THAT bad on reflection really (aside from making me look like a nutter perhaps), but as many people have told me in RL and here, I guess I have been quite restrained and ex has had virtually no comeback from me (I so regret not tearing up a few of his shirts that he left lounging around his old wardrobe in my bedroom....instead, I just packed them up and left them downstairs for him after I got sick of seeing them there....). I also dont really like swearing (though ex would probably agree that I have sworn more in the last 10 months than I have done the last 11 years).....but, I may have called her a certain type of b**ch. Know my argument is with ex, but she knew his circumstances and still carried on. She was in the background (I heard her, but wasn't aware of her) when he lied to me over the phone about being in US by himself, and she was there when he nicely told me off on the phone and told me not to flatter myself in thinking he was phoning for me ages back when I wouldn't answer the phone......and yet he now says that he wishes he could have come back?! Ladies - I have finally seen the light with this player and I am out of his game....I have barely given him more than a second thought to be honest in the last few days. He is just such a different person, and not one that I want to be friends with (begrudgingly have to know/interact with for DS' sake), I am back in a better place and back on the path to a new me and opportunities.

Springy Yes, thats a great way to look at it! I shouldn't care what he thinks as he is obviously off the wall and a confused? I am staying well clear and not allowing any opportunities for him to dump his emotional load on me......defo one day/step at a time on my own two feet now....

Phone rang earlier this evening. Wa ex (didn't recognise number - he has DS tonight). DS crying in the background for mummy. Heart was the old days, I would have said bring him home. But, no, ex needs to learn that life isn't all ha ha he he* when he has DS. So I offered some comfort and reassurance to DS down the phone, but ex and his wonderful new partner can now face reality (and a 5.30am wake-up call). Lord knows what Friday is going to be like when ex takes his first day of A/L to be with DS (been nagging enough). He is taking him to London - to all sorts of places with a packed agenda (The Gruffalo and Natural History Museum ring a bell). Maybe a bit much for a three year old who would have spent the previous 4 days in nursery, but that's his decision.

Hmmmmm - dare I suggest plans for crimbo meet-up?

springydaffs Tue 08-Nov-11 22:40:00

I used to get a pair of scissors and cut up his (silk) socks if some of them found their way back to mine via the kids. Nobody knew and it was therapeutic.

oldwomaninashoe Wed 09-Nov-11 12:14:38

Dee, you are doing so well, I think the 'phone call with Ds crying in the background is a big breakthrough for you .
Well done, I think you are doing brilliantly, onwards and upwardsx

Hi Darling(s)

Firstly to clarify my lovely I totally didn't mean it was a shock that you mouthed something and you haven't done anything like this before etc....I meant don't sweat it, you'd had a shock and you have been so restrained as not done anything like this before so his response was super patronising. Would have done same if not worse! I think I would honestly get red mist/white noise if I saw her in my ex's car with her son and my son so thank god they are in Canberra for right now!

We are OK. Had totally bizarre week when pretty much every appliance/thing I have has broken. Its like I am running a Heaven's Gate for electrical appliances. On last count we are Car (brakes gone - now fixed), Fridge/Freezer/Hairdryer/Phone/Toaster/ awaiting locusts and boils....Very hard financially but it is what it is. Almost funny. I remember reading in Joan Didion's 'The Year of Magical Thinking' a memoir about the year she lost her husband and daughter that in the first few months she literally could not keep hold of anything, everything seemed to literally slip through her divorce came through on 5th (ironically 7 years to day of our first proper date when I thought I had found home) and since then everything has broken. I'm not very new agey but it is a weird coincidence.

I also went to see the Child Psychologist. Very positive move as net net he said that my DS behaviour was typical of someone going through this, I seemed to be handling in the way she would suggest, I seemed to be great mum (preens) and if anything am too hard on myself and need to let go of my ideals of what perfect family looks like and at his age the best thing for him is to make sure that I am as happy and positive and stress free as possibe. It was also good to have endorsed that the move here, baby blues/PND, two traumatic pregnancy losses and being walked out on during IVF and isolated from family etc is HUGE HUGE HUGE and I need to give myself time etc and if I liked I can see her once a week and then after xmas see if I want to get ex in to try and do some mediation on how to communciate re DS if I felt appropriate. Its great news as its free - i stopped my previous counselling as even though subsidised via GP referral it still cost and I felt I should use money for son etc so I do feel that this will be helpful and I really liked/connected with the woman.

I'm still up for meet up - throwing a date out there as know am in London for dinner the previous Friday - what about Saturday 17th December?? London??? Day or evening time....

No romantic action for me but have a crush on local ferry owner a la Nicholas Sparks novel...I think it may be the epilettes (and he is single and 40 according to a vague mutual friend...I bumped into him last night after ocean swim in local cafe bar - so looking very bedraggled not glam - and he came over to chat and we ended up chatting for 2 hours or so....didn't ask for my number though ; ( so not sure if he is just friendly or vaguely interested....

oops Sue/Dolly keeps blowing her cover

springydaffs Thu 10-Nov-11 10:02:24

Great news about the psychologist Dolly - fantastic, particularly as it's free. btw not sure I agree with you about the counselling you had - re the money would be better spent on your son: the best thing you can do for him is invest in yourself tbh - but now you've got it in a different (better?) form - brilliant.

I've had similar experiences to you ie everything breaking when I am going through intense heartache. It is wierd isn't it?

The ferry owner sounds promising! wink

Hey Springy
I do agree with you in principle its just that things at the moment (I will be relatively OK when house sells - or at least not breadline and much luckier than many in my situation) we are so skint it was kind of all of our spare money and at that point I felt like I could talk and talk for ever and nothing would help (not accurate but how I felt)....I now don't want to remain frozen in a moment of time so I am very focused on trying to make myself feel better and take better care of myself (she says sipping a glass of Reisling and having a crafty fag ; ) . I know I shouldn't feel guilty spending the money this way but now its great as I don't have to! Hurrah! I also articulated something I think for the first time outloud during the session is that I feel such guilt at not seeing our marriage was in trouble and ergo ruining my son's chances of a 'normal' family that I have been quasi punishing myself and I'm going to try and give myself a bit of a break. We will see. If nothing else its an outlet that is not boring or pushing away a friend as I try and sort through. I've also felt bad as I am aware that I could probably make comms with my ex a little easier if I was willing to be the 'big person' and not react or have the internal subtext of fuck you, you have fucked us both over I'm not going to make your life easy (as long as DS doesn't become pawn in it) which I dont' think is terribly grown up and again struggling with it and just hearing her validation (not endorsement) in that it is totally normal, totally understandable and a good sign that I am aware of it and that she will try and help me move through it at my own pace etc...sorry am sounding a bit evangelical but its been good to get out the stuff I am a little ashamed of ....

springydaffs Sat 12-Nov-11 23:29:56

That all sounds amazingly healthy and normal Dolly (hope I'm not sounding superior to say so though!). All those feelings that is. I know that feeling of talking your head right off, desperate for the heavy weight to shift, hating the sound of your own voice droning on... and on. Yes I know that one!

Perhaps for now it's appropriate to give the talking therapy a break - but keep your eye on it re get back to it when you've had a break? Sometimes it's good to mull over some things, to stop talking iyswim (it can be exhausting, particularly if, like me, you are a talker!), possibly to dip in and out? HOpefully the finances will sort themselves out soon and you'll be able to relax into counselling without feeling guilty or rushed. I'm glad she validated your 'fuck you, I'm not going to make this easy for you' feelings. Imo, no feelings are taboo - it's how we act on them is the key thing, and sometimes we need support and fresh perspectives, a spounding board, to help with that. When you're arse about tit you need someone/s to check things with, explore options..

Talking of which, I've long thought you may benefit from your own thread iyswim? One that is just for you, for you to drone on and on to your heart's content. It's good to have a partner/s in crime/agony but sometimes you also need a space just for yourself? HOpe that isn't inappropriate to suggest it - I just think it may be an idea to have a space just for you.

Lastly, I'm sorry to say it but the 17th is looking a bit squiffy for me after all - are there alternatives? I don't want to miss meeting up! (is the Da Vinci exhibition still going in December - anybody know?? check it yourself Springy )

wellthatsdoneit Tue 15-Nov-11 14:05:51

Did you start your own thread Dolly?

Just wondering how you are too Dee.

I'm feeling glum(mer). Not looking forward to first christmas as a lone parent. Grieving what I thought we had/would have I suppose. Nothing seems to help.

Hello! No not started new still in safety zone of this one. Was going to try not to hijack anymore but thought if I post we go up the charts and Dee may drop by again! Well - I'm sorry to hear that you are feeling low. I think high days and holidays are the worst and fraught with emotion and old memories and the mourning of the loss of memories you were trying to recreate. I'm all over the shop at the moment, one moment floored, then next moment feeling a bit better. Went to see 'my' child psychologist again which I am really valuing as good to have someone objective to talk to again about both myself and DS - a really positive thing for now.

I'm also quite proud of myself as at the w/end had a bit of a run in with my out-laws and stuck up for myself but in a respectful and calm way (which is a first for me as I tend to get emotional). I'll try and keep this brief but essentially I invited them to the Kindy open day. It was 'nice', I had resolved and succeeded not to talk about my ex or allude to the difficult situation I am in as a result (financial/emotional) and kept all top line and pleasant. DS a bit overexcited, decided to pull the pin and leave to go to lunch with out-laws (they asked me when they arrived if we would like to). DS didn't want to leave all friends etc and had been squabbling with his best friend as nearly 4 yr olds do....out front he was half way between crying fit and tantrum. I said come on we are going for lunch with [grandparents]. He said/shouted 'no I don't want to go to lunch I want to stay here. I was about to say thats not a nice thing to say, say sorry and come on when MIL like a CRAZY person (think tone that we have prob all used once or twice but after hideous week of no sleep/stress etc) DONT' TALK TO ME LIKE THAT EVER AGAIN OR I WON'T WANT TO SEE YOU EVER AGAIN.....I was in shock as it was so out of no-where....DS is silent then nearly hysterical....MIL storms off..I am trailing behind a bit 'wtf should I do, shaking a bit as it was so unexpected...she then turned around and SHOUTED at a nearly 4 year old 'YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND YOU ARE PART OF THIS FAMILY WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT AND YOU WERE NICE TO ME LAST WEEKEND IN FRONT OF DADDY YOU CAN'T SPEAK TO ME LIKE THIS JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE WITH YOUR MOTHER'. Again, now shaking with anger as clearly not aimed at him. DS behind my legs saying 'i'm scared, i'm scared'. I am very calm and think we need to address this so say come on DS say sorry to grandmother and lets go to lunch (we are in sep cars). We go to lunch and I engineer that FIL and DS go get bottle of wine. I then say to MIL (who is very used to holding talking stick and people are a bit scared of her) - MIL, I know children that age can be frustrating but I don't think yelling at him like that was helpful in that particular instance. however we all lose our temper (just after she said I have never yelled at him like that before as I think she was shocked at herself - but then went on to shout the stuff about family). I am more concerned about what you said to him about being part of family. That is an adult construct and honestly I dont' think you were talking to him, I think you were talking to me. I don't want DS to hear anything like that again as he is embracing a lot of change and we are doing our best. From what you said I want you to to know that I only say positives things about you both and also about ex. I believe it is important for DS to see you as much as possible with ex and with me if you would like but not if he has to hear things like that. She did concede it was an adult thing to say and quasi apologised (or at least we were both at fault -ie her and DS). However she then went onto say that yes it was important for them to see DS but also ex should be able to see him regularly and said that her daughers ex sees his boys every other weekend regardless. I had no idea what she meant as ex sees DS regularly - only time he hasn't is when he was on hols, his choice. I said this and she said, yes but you are going away for 6 weeks at xmas and he won't be able to make that time up and it is not fair on him. So. white mist at this comment. But very calmly I said (will bullet point). MIL I know it is hard for ex not to see DS for 6 weeks. However in terms of what is fair, from my perpective what is not fair is:-
- ex left us half way through IVF when DS 2.5
- i can ONLY see my family for 6 weeks
- that I cannot return to live in my country, pick up my career, and my friends
- that I am now single parent with little extended family support
- that DS does not have a full time father and will not have full siblings
- that I have to significantly reduce the amount of time I spend with him due to the necessity of going to work
- that I have been under the most tremendous amout of financial and emotional stress and have been doing my utmost to ensure DS is unaware and unscathed

She said, ex did not cheat on you he tells me it was a friend from work whom he got close to aftewards.

I said MIL, ex is your son and having my own I understand that you will always support him, want to believe him and be there for him. I respect that and understand it. I will never talk of this again with you but I want you to know that I know OW was in his life since DS was 6 months old in some shape or form, he himself told me he thought that OW had wrong idea about their relationship after a work away day and that I also saw texts and IM's that I would not dream of telling you the content of but suffice to say there is no doubt in my mind. So MIL I'm sorry to be blunt with you but I would like you to think about my perspective when you tell me things aren't fair for ex or that my parenting of DS is in someway lacking when I am doing the absolute best I can and I believe I am doing a pretty good job. So. Lets have a nice lunch..... tears or shouting or raised voice from me....then surreal nice lunch talking about their holiday....they leave and whilst I am trembling for the rest of day feel proud I stood up to here in respectful way....

....and today get brief but nice email telling me the cake they bought at kindy open day (mine) was nice etc and hope we are having nice - gosh long post if you have got through it well done - I feel that our relationship may be a little more respectful going forward as I think she now realises I am not dutiful daughter in law anymore who will shut up and do it her way. Gold medal for Dolly me thinks.

See Dee - this is what happens when you take a break - I waffle on for too long ; )

Finally Well - I am very much still in mourning but I am trying (with limited success) to realise that I am mourning the idea of my life and the idea of what I thought my ex was like. Given his behaviour I cannot be mourning the loss of the real him, if you see what I mean, and I need to separate them in my mind.

Big kiss xxx

ha just re-read the part where I said will try and keep this brief - FAIL!

Patienceobtainsallthings Wed 16-Nov-11 08:42:25

heard back from CSA £2.50 per child a week.Apparantley he is signing on.Thats a first.Hugs to everyone xxxx

Wow Patience I bet you can't quite decide what to spend your new found riches on.....should we start a suggestion box! Kisses

Patienceobtainsallthings Wed 16-Nov-11 23:06:01

LOL Dolly ,yeah what do i go for the BMW or THE MERC grin

Patienceobtainsallthings Wed 16-Nov-11 23:24:59

Wow Dolly gold medal indeed re MIL
I must admit I would have missed the lunch date if she had bollocked my kid ,so well done on building bridges.But i aint seen mine in over 2yrs.
And LOL at Ex telling Mumsy he started relationship after you split.....they all lie and eventually they start to believe the lies,its like fact and fiction merge into a hazy sense of reality to justify their abismal behaviour !

Patience - if this were a novel or there was universal justice you would use it buy a lottery ticket and win a fortune and buy both. Or you could save up for a few months and buy a voodoo doll ; )

Patienceobtainsallthings Thu 17-Nov-11 09:22:19

Na no voodoo ,thats the beauty of working thru stuff and working with positive energies,i wish him no harm,he is what he is and in the end free will always prevails,we all make choices.

Truly Patience by name and Patience by nature xx

Dee34 Fri 18-Nov-11 23:21:24

Hello!!! Sorry for delay in catching still here (just about). Ex flies out this Sunday to Nevada for his 7 night wedding/honeymoon extravaganza....just had a mini run in with him via email about him making provisions for DS in his will. Apparently 'she' is not the type of person who would just take off with his money should ex pop his clogs (we are talking 100s of thousands with all his schemes and plans in place, definitely more than 500k) and I am the bad person for thinking such a thing!!! Errr, she is not DS' mum, she has been living with him for 4.5 months only and by his own admission, they have not had an argument yet! Anyway, despite all his earlier protests (remember how he said he had set up this trust for DS and he would always make provisions for DS a priority, today he emails 'Dee34, she is not that sort of person, but I will take a day out to sort my will when I get back.' I wonder what he would have done if I am not here nagging him (probably nothing - and yep, know I need to keep on nagging on his return as pretty sure his post-honeymoon glow will ail his mind and senses even further. Just cheesed off that he is being so flippin naive about this. Would I have ever guessed or imagined that he would have an affair? No? And I am pretty sure that if anyone had asked him a couple of years ago if he would ever cheat/have an affair, he would have been aghast with rage and offended, but he is 100% sure of the character of someone he has known for 1 year is just me or is that a tad bit bonkers?!

Oh and apparently I am not to go around saying that him having an affair and leaving us is a fact. This is my fact only (apparently) and he didn't leave us, he split from me and he did not want to be parted from DS.....funny way of going about things then. You can probably guess my response to him when he came out with that (a laugh and then silence - trying to learn my lesson not to engage with crazy folk)!!

Detachement is going swimmingly I think! And from a distance, I can see the kind of slippery character ex is (and also the seriously fucked up person he is.....three weeks ago he was going on about how I had given him signs that I had moved on and he could not come back - back when I was faking it until I made it - obviously worked a treat! How he regretted his actions (his words) and then today, its like pouff....there was no affair etc). I emailed him originally to get the whole calls for next week discussion out of the way. I suggested 2 days a week for him to call and the provision that I would contact him if anything serious came up with DS that warranted a call.....he comes back asking for 3 nights (and completely different days to what I had suggested!). I told him where to stick it.....DS doesnt talk to him on the phone as it is (despite encouragement), so i bloody well not going to follow him around the house at the behest of ex who is on his honeymoon.....And funnily enough ex forgot to phone DS twice this week when he was supposed to......

As for me....things are going well. Been trying my hand at internet dating and met a very nice guy on one site. Went for a date yesterday.....nice, but nothing serious (oh and very nice to have a snog from a very fit looking man. Complete opposite to ex, but figured I am allowed to be a bit shallow just once...).

Work is going well - I now have to manage a team (gulp). Am still hopeful that I can apply for part-time working next year...will see....still doing bootcamp and generally trying to love my new life now. Getting there - I no longer have the rose tinted glasses around ex and I can finally, finally see that I am a million years better off without him.

Dee34 Fri 18-Nov-11 23:36:10

Dolly - glad that the child psychotherapist has helped your DS and good on you for responses and reactions to your ILs. Very dignified under pressure. Go you! Ditto for the crush - go for it!

Patience - sorry to hear about the amount proffered by the CSA.....agree with Dolly about investing in a lottery ticket.......just re-reading the bit you wrote about how they start to believe the lies...can see that so clearly with ex and him now having an affair. Am sure he will dream up something. Its quite scary a lucid person can be become so distorted.....weird.

Springy - spot-on advice as always! Could try for another date in Dec........

Well - so sorry you are having to go though this. The one bit of advice I took from here was to allow myself time. Time to mourn the relationship, time to decide what I wanted to do, time to move on. Yes, this Christmas will be hard as lone parents, but we can get through it (I hope!). How are you dividing up the holiday period etc?

Proper post as dashing but just wanted to say Dee re snogging fit man 'woooooooooooooooohooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo'. made my day xxx

Dee34 Sun 20-Nov-11 09:07:28

Thanks Dolly! It was very nice, have to say....he asked me out for dinner yesterday, but had to say no as had DS as ex couldnt have him overnight as they fly out (or flew out) early today for their wedding. In hindsight, I should have said 'no, you have to look after him and bring him back in the am at whatever time' as imagine having a toddler to look after would have eaten into their evening of last min prep - and of course I would have been able to go out! But I agreed for DS to come back early, so there you go! Wont get to see fit guy (he is a paramedic - shall I just call him the Paramedic?) until first week in Dec now as with ex being away, it wipes out next weekend as well......

As for the ex, bearing in mind, he had DS all day yesterday and didn't bring him home until 8pm, he sends a text at 8.40am asking if he can speak to DS and how is he today.....lordy, would have thought he would be cushing down into the executive lounge with Miss San Fran with fingers entwined giggling nervously about their pending nuptials (or at least following her around the duty free). Reminds me of the early days when he did all this excessive contact (we have already agreed the days and times he will phone DS and its not today - and I have said I will let him know if DS asks for him - probably regret that last bit, but was more to get him off my back in terms of not calling every other day. If he was on business, maybe, but he will be on his honeymoon for goodness' sake and the less contact I have with him the better this week). Anyway, promptly ignored him, so hopefully he will get the message.....

Xales Sun 20-Nov-11 11:04:19

I disagree Dee. There is nothing you can do to make him sort out a will. You can nag him until you are blue in the face, if he doesn't bother he doesn't do it. At the end of the day this will now be between your ex and his wife. If he drops dead before your son reaches adulthood I believe you can make some claim against his estate for your son (don't hold me to that I am not a legal person) apart from this there is nothing you can do.

You need to not nag him any more. All you can do is make sure you provide for your DS. If the selfish wanker doesn't you cannot do anything and it isn't really down to you or any of your business to nag etc any more even though we all know you are doing it for your son. sad

Just as he has no right to tell you what you cannot go around saying about him and her. He can try and rewrite his history with her so it looks better, simple fact/truth is he got with her when still with you, lied to her about being single, then dumped you for her and suggested you and your DS moved out with no where to go and nothing but savings to support you! That is fact, he can say what he likes you do not have to do what he says!

The wanker is still at it isn't he trying to make you think there was still a little chance, that he was thinking about coming back (thinking, not considering or really going to do) when he is off to get married!!!! What a twat. Your laugh and silence was perfect! Just tell him this conversation is not appropriate, hang up, walk away or close the door. You don't have to listen or take part in these conversations.

Take internet dating with a pinch of salt, have fun and keep it light! Oh and condoms all the way!!!! Wise mumsnet quote 'The best way to get over a man is to get under another' grin

Dee34 Sun 20-Nov-11 13:09:18

Hi Xales....*sigh*, think you are right and I am flogging a dead horse here. As husband and wife, he/they will now decide how to split their assets and yep, it has nothing to do with me. Am rightly peed off and dont expect ex to pull his finger out on this or do something substantial for DS, so have to let it go and focus on my own provisions for DS now. So, yes, have resolved to stop the nagging (and reserve my energy for other things that I can influence in my own life).

Yes - absolute madness how it is not a fact that he had an affair (I think he seriously believes the drivel that they may have dreamt up now - they are still playing the 'we just fell in love, couldn't help it and oh so very sad that anyone got hurt in the process (but hey, hurry up and move on Dee34!)' line). Bizarre and I dont want to encourage him by questioning his reasoning here, so they can pretty much think what they like.

When he dropped DS off yesterday he was lingering around on the doorstep - after some silence and staring each other out (I was in glare mode) I asked him 'yes, anything else', he replied 'uh, no, nothing' at which point I closed the door. I think he does think that he is keeping me on the back burner/checking if I still have an interest in him. Truth is, as much as I was/am still hurting, my feelings for ex have been obliterated a long time ago. When he turned up yesterday I just thought he looked a complete mess. He is still very overweight (DS who now knows the word 'boobies' pointed to mine, said 'mummy's boobies' and then pointed to his dads and said 'daddy's boobies'), and his hair is more or less grey now with flecks of brown (twas the other way round at the beginning of the year). This is all combined with the young and hip look he is attempting via clothes, haircut and glasses......very superficial I know, but with the character flaw he has shown, it doesn't add up to anything I would be interested in now.

ID - hmmmmm, well, the Paramedic is nothing serious (I hope! Dont want to go all goo-eyed and marry the first person I meet!). It is a bit 'nice' but definitely no fireworks or signs of even a relationship, but that's fine with me, I think. Its my first foray into the murky waters after much cajoling from (well meaning) friends and family. To be honest, in two weeks time I may well just fancy staying in and watching the X Factor....then again, I may not! But sterling advice - thanks!

Well - was wondering if anyone who has been through similar has any survival tips for the xmas season? I think my situation may be a bit easier as to be honest, I had a crap time last year and at least I can look back and think 'yes, I am in my own home with DS and not in Scotland with ex's parents' etc). Ditto, when it came to doing anything Christmassy I did it all on my own (food shopping, pressie shopping (including deciding what to buy ex's family and DS). Ex wouldn't even come shopping with me, so I have nothing to miss in that regard I guess. I have already arranged for him to have DS on NYE, seeing as he had last year 'off' in SF with his then-lover. No way am I sitting indoors waiting for midnight to strike and the memory of this time last year when at about 12.05am he told me that he had met someone else, didn't love me, didn't want to work on things, she was in the UK and not there with him shock and I had had my chance and it was done. I think that will be tough for me, that and the memories of the complete mess I was at the time......ugghh...

Right - DS up and now ready for party number 2!

Dee34 Sun 20-Nov-11 13:12:15

Hmmmmmm....with the Paramedic...may well buy some (cough, cough) condoms, you know, just in case. Well, it has been over a year now and I think that I may well pounce on the poor man next time I see him...

Hello Dee

This week is bound to be a little strange knowing what is happening in the US so I would imagine that Paramedic may be the perfect antidote! Could you get a friend to babysit to nip out for a sneaky dinner?? Regardless, he sounds like a nice first foray into the dating world. Its hard re the will. I am going to have to raise at some point with ex as he is kind of defacto living with OW and her child and worried that is anything happens to him she could have a leaving for now though until/if they get married or live together properly....

...quick question/sanity check from you wise ladies. son is spending significant time in Canberra at her home. I have asked ex if he can let me know her home tel/address for emergencies (thinking if they go out leaving babysitter and something happens have no idea where they live / if anything happens to my parents in UK etc and need to leave Australia quickly - also I am just not comfortable having no idea where son is although maybe I have to suck that up - do I??). I'll cut the tooing and frooing emails out but ex has said no as he doesnt want me to 'abuse' the information. I pointed out that I know where she works and have her mobile etc and have only sent 1 email and cc'd her in on another one a considerable time ago so if I wanted to act like a lunatic I have had significant opportunity to date. However I said irrespective it is for emergencies only so perhaps as a compromise he could give deatails to either his parents or sister so they have them to pass in in case. Again a no. Am I being unreasonable? If I spent w/ends at a boyfriends that ex was aware of I would have no problems giving the address etc - or am I the unreasonable one for wanting to know where DS is??......discuss xx

Dee34 Mon 21-Nov-11 22:23:37

Hi Dolly......wish I could go out for dinner, but he lives in another town (not too far away, but away enough that it would be a bit of a trek esp after a long day at work and then having to get a babysitter/friend over..nice idea though!

Regarding your query - I would ask for the same info (I think), but would suggest ex gives it to his sister or a mutual friend as you have done if only to make it easier for him to agree. I think it is a bit unreasonable as you only have his mobile number to contact in an emergency if he were in Canberra....

I think this week will be made that bit harder by ex....after texts yesterday, there was another one today asking for DS' shoe size. Fair enough, I am not 'flattering' myself that ex is contacting me to contact me, but you would think he would have a bit of sensitivity about him and say to himself 'hmmm, I am on my wedding/honeymoon with woman I dumped Dee34 for (along with selling the house for etc etc), maybe I will give her some space this week and keep contact to bare minimum. After all it is my choice to be away for 7 nights on said wedding/honeymoon, so I need to bear the brunt of missing DS etc'....but, apparently not. Wonder if I should expect another message tomorrow? It just pisses me off that he is off on holiday/honeymoon/wedding and he can still burrow away into my mind, esp as we agreed very clearly that he would phone for DS on Tues and Thurs this week and I would contact him only in an emergency. So annoying.......


enuffalready Mon 21-Nov-11 23:30:14

Dee, This is the perfect time to get that second mobile/new sim. Truly. Do it tomorrow (Tesco ones are cheap as chips, the sim-only deals from 02, Orange, etc are cheap, too) and free yourself from this week when he WILL torture you by making sure you think of him every day by being in contact.

Take back some control here. You're doing so well, a new phone will be a huge step forwards for you.

Big hugs.

Hi Darling

Oh sweets I feel for you. Irrespective of how amazingly far you have come - and you have you really have - the interuption of your day seeing his name on your texts of course throws up feelings. Currently I have only to see ex once a fortnight due to kindy pick up and drop offs in the meantime and everytime I see him it puts me in a bad mood. Unfortunately, he isn't thinking of you at all - just so he can say in his new narrative - gosh I am such a great father I phoned DS every day from my wedding/honeymoon and show new wifey how fabulous he is etc etc - thinking of him really not DS and sadly not you darling. SO. In the absence of hot dinner with hot paramedic in hot uniform (vroom vroom) please do try to do lovely things for you - whatever floats your boat (in between work and single parenting which I know is easier said that done - sounds like work going great - well done!!) - but just something treaty and nice (not necc something that costs.....)

I have emailed ex again to ask if he can give details to out-laws. Can't see why he woudn't but can't begin to understand him so hey ho. Am going to leave till NY if he won't and then address again possibly legally. I am very excited as less than 3 weeks till UK. If you knew me - and I hope we can arrange a meet up - I am person least likely to utter the following words - just booked YMCA for three nights in HK for stopover on way back but am proud that am cutting my cloth accordingly and its also a great location nxt to ferries, museums, over the road from 8pm nightly laser show and right nxt to Peninsular Hotel so hoping we can do swanky afternoon tea one day. It actually looks pretty OK and has indoor pool (will be cold) for DS and honestly I hope we will be out most of the day.....ooh fond wistful look over shoulder to Mr & Mrs Smith hotels and Four Seasons of corporate days.....excited though will be nice and extra money for treats when we are there....I know this sounds horribly spoiled and we are lucky to be there at all but I figure I can be truthful here!!

Had a nice playdate with friend and her mother who is house sitting whilst I am gone...she is newish friend and am trying to count blessings of people that I woudn't have met if ex hadn't left me...she is one and had 40th birthday lunch at another's on Saturday - lovely people so really the world is opening up to us. To remember that pre-packed Oh the Places You Will Go in carry on for journey to remind me when I am having a wobble on way home...still feel a bit loserish coming home as 41 year old divorcee single mother. Perfect idiocy I know but .....

Dolly xxx

Xales Tue 22-Nov-11 19:09:54

I think that US shoes sizes are different to UK ones like clothing. A UK size 1 will be a US size 2 but I am sure your ex is a smart cookie and would buy one or two sizes up for future wear not current sizes, right... grin

Dee34 Wed 23-Nov-11 09:52:41

Xales - you would think so wouldn't you re. getting a couple of sizes bigger (therefore erradicating any need to contact me. Even when he is here in the country I will do my upmost to not contact him unless its an emergency, nevermind if I was on my honeymoon/wedding jaunt).

He phoned to talk to DS yesterday (as per agreement). Cue lots of 'I love you' over and over. DS not interested and kept running away. I did my bit by encouraging DS to at least say hello and bye inbetween him playing dinosaurs. And that was that. I had thought I would be fuming with rage when he rang, but......nothing. I was actually thinking about whether to have a bit of pork or salmon for my dinner (!!).

Dolly - yes, I would agree to push for address details in the NY. I've just remembered that ages ago (well, a few months ago), when I first got the bone of this will business in my jaw when ex announced that he was getting married (before she arrived here or he was even living with her - must be true love and forever, ever....grin), he agreed that he would lodge any paperwork regarding will and provisons in will for DS with his sister (I suggested this in case he felt uneasy with me having access to what his will contains). Of course whether he ever gets his will 'sorted' is another matter, but I really dont see what your ex's issue is with this. If he gave address to his folks, then they would be a gate anyway to you accessing it anyway (not saying that you need such a thing in the first place iyswim). They can say 'err, no Dolly, you dont need his landline number there just because you want to check DS's shoe size' or something else trivial. Defo push in the NY (in my opinion). Oh and no way are you a loser! So dump those ideas right now lady! smile

Ahhh, yes, must have a re-read of The Places You Will Go - I used to read this daily. A good habit for me.....

And yep, will think of lovely things to do for me.....have arranged some things for 2012 including a couple of courses that just grab me. All in London so get to get away from here on those days/weekends ex has DS and do a interesting course, hopefully meet new people and see family and friends in the evening to boot. I'm also trying to look on the bright side now and focus more on the positives that I would not have had access to beforehand (or just didn't bother with before as settled into humdrum routine e.g. gym at lunchtime whilst at work - hated the very idea with the whole faffing with showers and getting dressed and going back to the office, but now, I relish the opportunity, partly because I dont have the flexibility to go whenever I want to etc). Talking of which - meet-up; when and where (London)?

enuff - I'll check Tesco's on the way home then! Need to get DS an xmas themed outfit for his first Christmas Carol concert on Friday evening (bad mummy - have left the big outfit to the last minute. Must be more organised).

wellthatsdoneit Wed 23-Nov-11 17:23:32

I think you are doing fabulously Dee - this is bound to be an odd week for you. Good grief, I almost start to pity the NW although one reaps what one sows so I don't feel that sorry for her. She must be insane. Who in the right mind would get married to a man so quickly and who'd just walked out on his partner and their child. It beggars belief.

I have cheered myself up a bit by reading some of the MIL/Christmas dilemma/fighty threads on the other boards. All those who are thrilled to not have to spend or negotiate not spending another christmas with a bonkers MIL, or have to hear her ship's foghorn honking again, raise their hand.....<well's hand shoots up>

There is no situation, no matter how dark or hopeless it may seem, without its consolations eh?!

Hello Well

Raises hand!!! In my instance its that i don't have to eat/accomodate at my chic table/pretend to like her great great great great grandmother's 'tomato surprise' as part of xmas lunch (relatives came over on the Oz equivalent of Mayflower and tradition ever since).....the surprise is its stale bread baked with tomatoes and tastes like shit......NO MORE - hurrah!!! xxxx

Dee34 Sun 27-Nov-11 08:45:13

Well/Dolly - definitely one to join the club here! It is the silver lining for me - that I don't have to spend another Christmas with ex's parents. These are the parents that so adore their first born GS that they insist on spending 'time' with us over seasonal period for last 3 years for excessive amounts of time, whilst not helping much or giving us me any relief from childcare, bar playing with DS every now and then, and, as mentioned a hundred times, have only been to see DS once this year and that was back in April. And they only live in Scotland, near the airport. Didn't even come down for DS' birthday in August - and that was another occasion that they used to come down to and park themselves in our house for near on 2 weeks (part of me does wonder if new gf being here had anything to do with in ex just doesn't have room in his rented house for them to stay, not without him and new gf giving up their bedroom - his house is small - and they would never stay in a B+B or hotel). When I was 'moaning' to ex last xmas about how it would be good to have Christmas day in our own house just the three of us and start our own traditions (bearing in mind, ex's family had none that were in evidence at his folks and his own sister had done this, not showing up at her parents until late afternoon as she wanted her family to 'spend time together and do their own thing') ex was not in the slightest bit interested, for obvious reasons as he was plotting his escape. I can almost laugh at it all now - laugh at the knob he is of course.... Anyway, slight mumblings - sorry!

So, I have the SIM at last! How do I announce this to ex? Should I just say 'oh, my mobile number has changed now' and give him the new number and not let on that old number is still working?

The newly-weds are back today, so expect my current mobile to get hit with a text/call to ask if he can see DS today depending on the time he arrives back (answer will be no as we have plans today and he will see DS tomorrow when he does nursery pm run - I guess if he was that keen to see DS after the absence, he could have taken a day off tomorrow to take DS out of nursery etc). The week has been okay, given circumstances. Had a lovely week with DS without interruption and we have done lots. Yesterday was a trip to a Christmas Fair, play place and cinema (Arthur Christmas - DS loved it, me too!) with a non-nursery friend we dont get much of a chance to see. Today, we are off to an outdoor market this morning and then to the theatre to see a childrens show and lunch out. He did send me another text on Friday asking me how DS' christmas concert went (it didn't - will explain in due course) and instructing me to tell DS that his daddy loved him and missed him (as if I dont say that when DS is upset?! Was cheesed off that his text speak was devoid of any politeness, just terse instructions). My main worry about seeing ex now is how I will react when I see him - and more specifically his blimmin wedding band. I know I need to act cool, detached and devoid of any emotion, but not sure how. I could look on it as a pity fest and think to myself 'poor fool/fools', but need to keep handover as short and brief as possible.....

cenicienta Fri 02-Dec-11 02:46:21

Hi Dee, just wondering how you're doing?

Come back when you get the chance.

Dee34 Mon 05-Dec-11 23:11:40

Hi Cenicienta....thanks for the check. I am not doing too well at the moment - well last few days really, but have noticed the other threads and what some other people are going through and feel like I just need to give myself a good shaking and get a grip as my situation could have been a lot worse. I am just feeling huge waves of melancholy at the moment. Ex has announced his Xmas plans (he is staying put here as he doesn't want to fly up to Scotland for a few days then come back here and pick up DS and fly back up - he is planning on taking DS to Scotland when he has him for a few days after Xmas). For me, it smarts that now he is prepared to stay put in our local area and have a cosy Xmas with new wife and yet in the 11 years we were together, before we had DS, we only spent 1 Xmas together and that was because we decided to fly out to Hong Kong on Christmas Day as flights were cheaper when we went backpacking round Oz.......every other Xmas he raced as fast as he could to spend time with his parents..even our last Christmas as couple when I was around 4-5 weeks pregnant having suffered a miscarriage back in the March of the same year, he preferred to go to Scotland....I know a lot of it was my doing as I accepted this and how he frequently lamented that it was the only time he got to see his parents, and I know I shouldn't care, but how come he can suddenly flip?? Makes me feel pretty worthless (even more so) really.....

Things have fizzled out with the paramedic - we met up for a meal - it was nice, but no real spark and he lives a good distance away from me for it to even be worth pursuing as a casual/friends thing. Again, my overworking mind, combined with seasonal mood and recent developments has me thinking 'why?' Why should ex be off living some dream fantasy life/set-up of cosy coupledom and seeing DS part-time to fulfil his role as the great and dutiful dad? I don't even know if I want to be with/meet someone just yet (I suspect not) but I guess its all the planning, maybe coming so soon on the back of the wedding and the anniversary of what ex was up to this time last year (in fact, this day last year was when they first slept together in the US, whilst DS and I were stuck in our house due to snowfall and icy roads). I really don't know. I have a lot to be thankful for - lovely DS, good job, roof over our heads, great friends and family and a life with many facets, but I just feel like I am stuck at the moment - don't know why and I don't want to sound like I am moaning (probably am). I am just feeling like 'blah' - don't want to do anything really......I hope this is normal?

Trying to keep myself busy with work, friends, books, all sorts really, but to not much hopeful that I will go to bed one day this week and wake up and be back to how I was a few days ago.....

Patienceobtainsallthings Mon 05-Dec-11 23:37:11

Tbh Dee i dont think there are any shortcuts.You just have to work through the loss,anger and sadness.Sometimes at my strongest and happiest i would just hit a slump and it was as if my mind thought i was ready to work through some more pain.When it happens now i just sit with it and feel the emotion,then i can let it go forever.On bad days i still think THIS TOO SHALL PASS,and it always does.You have had so much to process.take care xxxx

cenicienta Tue 06-Dec-11 03:00:18

Of course it's going to hurt. It's not so much about how much you love(d) him by now, it's all the little things he does that leave you feeling really worthless, how come he does that for / with her when he never did that for / with me?

A lot of you feeling bad is because he seems to be treating this new woman better and with more respect than he treated you. But just imagine what it'll be like a few years down the line when he's treating new woman just as badly, dragging her off to Scotland, setting the timer to give her half an hour to get showered and dressed in the morning, bored and looking for someone else to boost his ego. By then she'll be sitting through yet another miserable Christmas in Scotland realising his true colours and you'll have moved on, maybe with someone else, but even if not you'll still have the advantage because a)you had a lucky escape and b) you'll have the benefit of experience to make sure you don't end up with someone like that again. Oh and c) you don't ever have to spend Christmas in Scotland again.

You know you had a lucky escape, you just need to go easy on yourself whilst your heart catches up. Your life WILL be better without him.

Dee Darling

So sorry you are feeling blah darling. I can totally understand it and am still kind of in and out of that phase. Honestly, the marriage and now xmas thing is enough to send you into a bit of a funk - and even though realistically we know the first person we had a date with won't be our prince charming, its still annoying when there is no spark (remember my hot architect with whom I had lots of spark - was gutted when that ended even though it was always probable). I think xmas is also the time for refelction when it appears the world is full of 'happy' families and it can feel a bit like pressing your nose against a window of a lively restaurant full of families and friends (btw have pm'd you re meet up so we can be IN the restaurant). There isn't a silver bullet answer, I guess it is just getting through and making sure that a blue patch doesn't slide into anything more 'serious'. You have done SO SO SO well though and in a way its a bit like after a have had to sell house, move, get job, do job, manage son, manage drama, manage new life and now you are on more of a plateau it can sink in a little more. Kisses lovey and try and go out for xmas drinkies and things if you can even if you dont' necessarily feel like it.

We are off to UK later this week - hurrah. Less hurrah though is ex predictably three days before we go issuing ultimatums about sale of house. We are currently both paying half mortgage - we are out of our favourable interest rate so refinanced for us - he was aware - to save us 1K per month (500 dollars each). Day he was supposed to sign he has said that on reflection he does not want to make it more affordable to live in the house as he feels I am not doing enough to sell it so we remain with ludicriously high mortgage which is cutting his own throat and quite literally taking 500 dollars out of his son's mouth/activities/clothes per month. It is just pure spite and frankly if someone can be that much of a tosser when a child is involved then good luck to him. Crazy huh. So, my 6 weeks a year I can spend with family, recharging are going to be filled with legal shit. Ding dong merrily on high ; (

On the brightside DS seems much better and on an even keel and can't wait to have lots of grandparent babysitting soon!! xxxx

Dee34 Tue 06-Dec-11 22:20:41

Huge thanks for the guiding words and clarity on the situation....

Patience - yes, I do think I need to sit and absorb the feelings and the moment, maybe more so than trying to bury it under a flurry of activity of stuff to do. And so true about when this occurs. Things have been going well and it is totally like suddenly my heart catches up and everything just gets knocked for 6 (again). Need to remind myself of that 'This too shall past', esp when it seems like it never ever will...

Cencienta - thats the nail on the head really. its like 'hey, hold on how come he can bend over backwards for her and not me?'. Though I have just remembered what my counsellor encouraged me to think I should think how ex treated me in the beginning of our relationship and to actually accept that of course, he would do the same for his new partner...yes, no more drawn out Christmas holidays in Scotland (nothing against Scotland the country/people of course). Yes, need to get that 'lucky escape' t-shirt back on - hard though at times.

Dolly - yes, date was a bit of a let-down in that regard, but was/is good to get back out there and see what/whom is available. i think he was so nice on the phone, text etc that i hadn't set expectations for after meeting him.

Am feeling moderately better today - will keep in mind the 'care' points above.

Ex is chipping away at my exterior by asking for us to be 'friends' again (as in, he has already asked a few times and I have given him short shrift on this). I totally see why he wants this (acceptance, to ease any guilt, just move on), but I dont see how he cant see that this request is beyond mad at this moment in time

Dolly - yes, will PM you back! Sorry - been in this funk and mooching around. Hopefully will work my way out of it. Sorry to hear about the boot getting stuck in re mortgage - does your ex realise that he is just spiting himself?! So glad to hear that your DS is better and getting through things

springydaffs Tue 06-Dec-11 23:29:39

Dolly, I sincerely hope your ex gets hung on the gallows he has prepared for you! Bible story - Haman? (guessing!). Are you going to see a lawyer while you're here? About the possibility of you staying here...

Writing 'gallows' has reminded me of a Garrow's Law I saw the other night (British series about a 17th century lawyer - at least I think it's 17thC: wigs). The longrunning theme is that Garrow hooked up with a toff's wife, who left toff for Garrow; said toff kept their baby, arguing that it was his property (as it was in those days). But he did it to spite her and cause her as much pain as possible. The upshot of it was that, as toff had a thirst for power, she found a way to give him some power.. and got her baby back as a bargaining tool. I hope it isn't offensive to equate what you are going through with a fictional tv series ... but there is a grain of truth in that. That is, to lock horns with someone like this leaves you bloodied and half dead ( t-shirt !!); their ire/powerlust/ego is bottomless: better to play along somehow, stroke his ego somehow, give him what he wants somehow. Without compromising yourself and ds but getting what you want. It may be early days for that Dolly but possibly a strategy for future ref? Because imo it is strategy you need when you are dealing with someone like this, being as the human doesn't exist for you to appeal to.

Dee, glad you've got some sound advice here. Although your ex is a nutjob, I don't think he has the same leverage as Dee's ex, is anyway too infatuated with himself at the moment to notice anything much. Friends? No, because that would be handing you your lines in bold: this is what Dee says in my play, which is about my fabulous self.

Of course you're feeling shit that he's putting himself out for himself her, esp when he had you on a tight rein come the end. He'll get round to her soon enough (when his west end play bombs), no worries. Small consolation though, for now. As Patience says, you've got to sit with the shitty hurt of it for a short while sad. It looks like your worth is summed up by how he treated you, her worth by how he is treating her; but that's not true is it?

Xales Tue 06-Dec-11 23:41:41

You are doing great! You are only human so it is unsurprising that you are struggling to accept what is happening right now (this was supposed to be you one day married to him).

You have had such a lucky escape.

Friends don't treat you the way your ex has and continues to! You don't have to ever be friends with him. Why would you want to? Who would keep a friend who treated them the way he has treated you!

It is all about him how much easier it would be to say to everyone that you are friends so it was the right thing to do!

You hurt because you put so much into the relationship and can now see that you never got the same back, that you were second class and not as important when you probably thought your relationship was the most important thing at the time. It makes your relationship less than you thought it was at the time.

Shame about the date, still there are plenty more for you to take for a spin grin

I think that all makes sense it is late for me grin

Dee34 Thu 08-Dec-11 19:36:12

Hmmmm - after feeling moderatley better yesterday, a day of ups and downs again today. But, can see that I need to sit with these feelings and absorb them/work through them.

I am thinking even more that the downer has come about from him going on about wanting to be friends for the umpteenth time (not today, but earlier in the week as posted). I told him no thanks, and then get the outpouring of how HE cries everytime he thinks of the friendship he has thrown away and how he had choices and messed up (dont worry, am not stupid enough to feel sorry for him again......). Back to mind games (again) and the man hasn't even been married for a month yet! Surely, I would like to think that it I could sink to do what he did and then choose to get married (no one forced him, bar this mysterious visa business), then I would be off being happy with my new hubby, feeling bad for my put upon ex and so giving him breathing space.....not pestering him to be friends and 'confessing'* to the ex that I have messed up my life (as someone said, poor wife - makes me think that ex is a bit nutty,or she is pretty naive).

Today have had to see him walk by my office window a couple of times. Apparently, his company is doing very well (which will mean big bucks for him as an account director) - so well in fact that he has forgotten to phone DS this week on appointed days as he was busy in evening work meetings**. Did brighten up when one of my work colleagues clocked him and with mouth agog asked 'what the hell did you ever see in him?'. Totally inapproriate and of course was with ex for 11 years, but made me feel like less of a freak as I sometimes do (the 'freak' in terms of something must have been so, so bad at home for ex to have (1) had an affair, (2) left for OW (3) left for OW he had known for a few days and (4) moved in with as soon as she arrived here and (5) married within 4 months of moving in with her......again, dont always beat myself up about these facts, but as said, today has been a mixed bag.....).

Xales - 100% agree. Have known this from the first time he uttered the 'lets be friends' line, way back in Jan. And when I resisted, I was the one at fault, the one who was stuck being angry and in my grief-loss cycle....madness. Yes, it makes me feel exactly that. Logically, I can tell myself that he/they are still being nicest of nice to each other/still in the honeymoon glow (quite literally), but it hurts to know that someone who ex barely knew could be elevated to such lofty heights whilst I was kicked to the pits. Truth hurts and all that and I can accept that this is my reality now and that I am lucky to be out of the scenario than in it, but its a kicker for all the reasons I have mentioned a million times before.....but, in a way, it is releasing to get that knowledge and insight and for it to click that the relationship was not all it seemed. On a brighter note, certainly hope there are more dates to be had! Not looking though until the new year I think. Need to focus on Xmas I think.....

Springy/Patience - yes, will need to sit with the hurt for a bit, seems like the wisest option, rather than trying to fight it. Yes, definitely dont want to put myself in the play.......

Off for dinner at a friends now, so am feeling brighter about that. Then DS and I are away for weekend tomorrow and then my sister and mum come up next weekend, so plenty to keep me busy for a bit and get me in the xmas mood......

*Nah, not buying it guessing he is having one of his low/self-pity moments....

** Nah, not sure I am buying that either!

enuffalready Thu 08-Dec-11 19:53:50

Dee, you are doing so well. Really am in awe of how well you're coping. With the friends thing, I've told a couple of exes who've trotted out that line that I'm actually very picky about who I'm friends with and I've decided to be just as picky about who I date from now on. Soon shut them up. Not sure if you can be bothered to say something similiarish but it might get your point across.

Hugs. X

wellthatsdoneit Sat 10-Dec-11 14:52:44

Hello all - I just wanted to check in and utter the mantra "This too shall pass" to everyone who needs it. You are all in my thoughts but I've no more energy at the moment as have just been put through the fucking wringer in the high court defending my ex's application against me under the hague convention for child abduction. Judge found in my favour and the children will continue to reside here with me.

Fuck but it's been a rough week!

Patienceobtainsallthings Sat 10-Dec-11 21:06:15

Thinking of you WTDI x
Such an emotional time .

Wishing you a peaceful New Year xxx

wellthatsdoneit Sat 10-Dec-11 22:11:49

Thanks Patience - I know you were on the Rebuilding book thread which I couldn't maintain as this was all kicking off. At the moment its acute relief combined with acute grief in almost equal measures as I'm starting to feel the capacity to be able to grieve the end of the relationship. I've really been chucked right back to the beginning of the summer in that respect. I had a brief conversation with my husband after the judgment which is probably the most we have really spoken since I came back to england in the summer. In spite of everything I am still very much in love with him and long for him absolutely and now I have to do my grieving and letting go and start the process of putting my life back together. At the moment there is no respite from the pain but I know that This Too Shall Pass.

Patienceobtainsallthings Sat 10-Dec-11 22:52:58

Hang in there "Well "
I still can't believe the choices my ex has made in the last 2 yrs ,but I have accepted his choices are none of my business.My kids welfare and emotional stability is my business and i cross each bridge as i come to it .
Take your time to grieve ,be kind to yourself .
Nourish yourself as much as you can .
I too, rightly or wrongly loved my husband completely and utterly ,he was my kryptonite for a long long time but Im out the other side now and I have made a better life for my kids .

wellthatsdoneit Sun 11-Dec-11 12:46:56

Your support means more to me than I think you will ever know Patience. I think you have said to me on another thread "This will be the making of you", and those words resonated with me and have given me solace. Thank you.

Patienceobtainsallthings Sun 11-Dec-11 23:19:04

We are an amazing breed of woman.We are able to rewrite the script.Woman in the past were stuck in bad marriages.We know that however bad we feel its not as bad as the pain from living with a disrespectful excuse of a man.We have our self respect.The pain i felt was excruciating,but i got through it.We will do that book when ur ready,no rush .Pm me if u ever need to dump it all out,i swear sometimes i thought my head would burst x

wellthatsdoneit Thu 15-Dec-11 08:03:12

Thanks Patience - you are a star.

And so it starts. Ex has the opportunity to see the children for 9 days over christmas (including christmas day itself). He wants to come for 4 (spending christmas and new years eve with his friends). This is the man (although I use that term in its broadest sense) who was there under the surface all along. Full of shit. I will work hard to make sure the children don't feel like second class citizens and it will be a lifelong project.

Just wondering how everyone else is? Dee? Dolly? Not sure if Dolly is en route to God's Own Country - will have to go back and reread.

springydaffs Thu 15-Dec-11 13:51:33

How did we end up with these awful 'men'. How did that happen? Were we as fabulous when we were with them? or, as patience says, has this been the making of us? Were they, too, fabulous men at some stage, who 'went over to the dark side', got kidnapped somehow [by their own lusts imo]? or were they always vile, we just didn't see it? (if so, why didn't we see it?)

One of life's mysteries. Sorry if it's putting the cat amongst the pigeons, but it makes me sad am I going to get told off for being maudlin? You're all so fabulous and any man should be giving his all to be with women like you - it makes me sad that these pathetic excuses for the male gender didn't see that, preferring a bit of skirt. Such a fucking cliche apart from anything else.

wellthatsdoneit Thu 15-Dec-11 14:02:20

It's an interesting point springy. I'd say that my ex's true colours were always there, but I didn't want to see them. We trundled along ok until I became more of an inconvenience for him (homesickness/depression) and then he 'went native' (hard to really describe here but his behaviour is I think much more prevalent and accepted in his country where they all seem to play musical families which means that no one is held up to the light infront of their shoddy fricking behaviour and everyone ignores the big pink elephant standing in the room and pretends everything's fricking marvellous).

Personally speaking, I was quite fabulous before I met him, and became less fabulous when living with him in his country (and I hold my hands up to my part in the marriage breakdown and my failings are on My Big List of Things To Sort Out But One At A Time). I am becoming fabulous again though. The build up to, and last week has been a bloody nightmare and I've been trying to channel winston churchill in the face of such terror and callousness. I'm so thankful now that I can paraphrase him again and say something along the lines of - if I live for a thousand years, I will still look back on my determination and strength last week and say that that was my finest hour. Even in my bloodied and battered state, I'm not to be mother fucking trifled with. (That last bit wasn't churchill).

I have not been proud of the person I have been over the last few years, but I was last week. It is the making of us, indeed.

Dee! Dolly! Come back and check in!

Patienceobtainsallthings Thu 15-Dec-11 17:10:28

i accepted unacceptable behaviour for years cos i truly didnt think it was unacceptable.i felt good being with him most of the time and that was good enough for dad used to hit me much worse than ex.just thought thats what men with anger issues did,never occurred to me it was a reason to split.never saw the years of manipulation to justify the behaviour just thought it was me.both my father and my ex blamed me so i thought it was true.Still struggle with my parents entitlement issues now,especially at xmas.i am only really allowing myself tobelieve im not a bad person in these last few months.i think in the past i used men to take the pain away.ex would tell me he loved me everyday for 16yrs,looking back that kust allowed him to act however he liked and if i didnt like it he always threatened to leave .Eventually he did leave and it was the best thing that has ever happened to me

Helloooo Ladies

I am indeed in God's country (a bit chilly but still) and despite the fact have come down with horrid flu/cold am SO enjoying being back and catching up with everyone not to mention sitting on my arse whilst my fabulous mum does all the work with DS enjoying seeing DS with his grandparents.

Absolute shitfest before I got on the plane with trying to sort out new real estate agents (it also costs in Oz to market house so bye bye more money) but aside from mini tantrum in Sydney airport (solved by bag of crisps to share and beer for me) DS was an absolute STAR on the flight and it was really easy peasy and we even managed a full day after we arrived on the Sat morning at National History Museum/ice rink and carousel and London was being very obligingly Richard Curtis move like, all twinkly and glamorous (sadly after being awake for about 48 hours I was not).

Bitter sweet being in London (am now in Midlands) as my last years there with former husband were so very happy but offset by meeting up with good friends and having a few dinners out and so comfortable and wonderful that I forget all the crap for a while. Ex sent terse email a day or so ago saying "I have had no way to contact my son and you choose not to give me any update as to his or your well being Nice way to come into christmas" despite me sending him an email the day before we came, reminding me of my parents contact details and Skype details and telling him we would be available from the Tuesday onwards to speak. He didn't email to arrange so I left as DS not mentioned anything - was going to later this week if he hadn't contacted....anyway, sent back breezy non confrontational email reminding him of the email I had sent, giving update and suggesting if he wants to arrange a time we are around but heard nothing back yet. twat.

WTDI - so sorry its been awful for you. It does suck generally let alone at this time of year. I am so sad even though it is so nice catching up with friends etc as I go through the what could have beens. I think we are in a similar situation in that our ex's were 'nice' to us before they left so we didn't have time to mourn our marriage whilst we were in it. I honestly thought that we were fine and would be together for ever too. I did half smile at your going native though. My Australian husband was definately much nicer in the UK ; ) and like you I also made lots of mistakes due to homesicknes/settling it etc but did not expect to be so very punished for it. You do - as does everyone else - sounds fabulous indeed. I like to think that I am still a little fabulous. I am in a massive panic about losing all money in house so applied for 'big job' which I don't really want but for which I have been shortlisted. Before anyone gets too excited I think there is a strong internal candidate and as I don't have Oz exp I doubt my chances BUT I hope it will be a useful experience in remembering I used to be / will have to be mildly capable and clever(ish) and can do this.....I also got a few looks (admittedly a table of fairly boorish looking business men in the bar at Harvey Nichols which is admittedly home to a few high class hooker - we ended up there as the bar we wanted to go to was full) on a night out the other day so hoping not fit for the knackers yard yet....lets hope Santa has a little something for us under the Christmas tree for next year in the form of BLOODY GOOD LUCK and certainly some bon courage. I feel like I've waffled on too much but remind me to tell you about the telephone conversation I had with my friend's mum who has been married 3 times and is super super super posh which was quite inspirational and hysterically funny (in manor of Smack the Pony sketch) at the same time. Now she IS fabulous xx

heaps of love

Dee34 Mon 19-Dec-11 19:32:28

Hello - sorry it's taken an age to get back on here. Away last week (only a weekend in Centre Parcs, but a most welcome break) and now trying to get things prepped for Christmas and catch up on work etc.

WTDI - so sorry to hear about what you have been going through. Cant imagine how gruelling it must be having to do battle in the courts. But, was very cheered to read you last post. You go girl (sorry if that sounds cheesy!)! You are doing immensely well and you ARE fabulous smile. Great adapted quote - will add that to my ever growing list of positive thoughts.

Dolly - welcome back home! I think terse emails like that are par of the course these days. Well done on the 'polite' reply!! Glad to hear that you are having fun catching up with friends. I get what you mean about the 'could have been's' though mine are getting less and less with time. I am coming up to one year anniversary of the big reveal and this all kicking off. Am feeling fine about it now, but think I may have a wobble nearer the time (esp if I delude myself with thoughts of them off round the corner from me having a romantic xmas together toasting their fabulous year and how they did it and their destiny - yuck!). Good luck with the job and keep us posted!

Springy - I often ask myself the same question! I dont think ex was as bad/vile as he is now, though he did have his moments. And I have lost my rose tinted glasses enough to see a few red flags that I probably should have paid more attention to or confronted. But more recently, I keep reminding myself of what others have said on here (think Xales said it most recently - about reminding myself that I am better off without him and anyone that can treat someone else as he has done is someone I am well rid of. And I believe it too now! smile).

Patience - ever so wise words as always. I'll be taking strength from the words you have shared with WTDI......

Well, was thinking that life was settling down to an even keel (of sorts) and then the issue of schools has come up. Cant remember if I have mentioned earlier, but had mentioned dates to go and see some schools to ex (one had an open day, another set appointments). I gave him the date well in advance and then for the open day one, on the morning he sent a text saying that sorry, he couldn't come as he had an important customer meeting. Fine (kind of saved me the grief of having to grit my teeth and be nice to him in public) and he said he would arrange his own appointment. Again, fine. Ditto for the appointment school - he was a no-show as I didn't give him enough notice. Again, upsetting, but I cant drag him there and he said he would arrange his own appointment. Now the first school with the open day, that was the week after he got back from his wedding/honeymoon, so around 4 weeks or so? He has not made an appointment to go and view the school. All of this would be water off a ducks back aside from the fact that ex is now saying (very adamantly) that he does not want DS to go to school next year as he will be the youngest in the class (DS is an August baby). He is now sending me URLs about how going to school and being the youngest is psychologically damaging (esp for boys), DS wont have the emotional intelligence or maturity to cope and his motor skills wont be fully developed! Oh and to boot, he is also lecturing me that I should not be following my/DS's peers from our NCT group in sending him to school and we should do what we see fit for DS (I was fuming at that last bit as if I am so airhead idiot without her own brain/mind). I can sense that this is all about control, but is he off his rocker? He has not even visited any schools, has never voiced this stance to me before and the fact that he is so rigid about it is frightening (almost in tears as I just keep thinking when will this stop.....). He has not mentioned anything about how any of his actions could have stunted DS in any way (not that it has - don't know what tree he is barking up with that line). DS is fine, bright and loves learning. Never have any reports from nursery that he is struggling or anything (in fact the opposite). Surely a reasonable person (and what I think ex would have said if we had still been together and this line of thought had taken his fancy) would have said 'I am concerned about this, not overly worried. Lets keep an eye on DS' development over the next 9 months and make a decision nearer the time as a lot can change in that time. Lets also get the input from nursery staff as well as compare notes. Uppermost, lets keep our options open, visit schools, complete the application for a place now etc'. But apparently ex does not think this way. He wants DS to be the eldest in his class and amongst his peers and not to be the youngest.....I can understand the concerns, but I don't agree with putting a stake in the ground now and I am still stinging from his rigid, fixed position on this. I feel like I need to brace myself for yet another battle on this and I am just so tired of fighting.

Aside from that, nothing else to report. He is still married. I haven't seen them together since 'car-gate', which is very nice. Did see him in the car park at work last week. He saw my car and called me (yes, in the same car park, how friggin' incestuous can you get, eh?) to come and get a toy that DS had left in his car. I couldn't grab it off him and run off fast enough.....

Think I need a very large glass of wine (and some cheerful Christmas wrapping) to lift my spirits tonight....

Dolly/Springy - will send a pm tonight!

I think you need to explain to him that DS will always be the youngest in the school year. Just because you he kept him back a year all that will happen is he will go into YR 1 having missed all the reception year learning. The school year runs from 01/09/ to 31/08/ so that the year your DS will be in, most LA will not put children out of there year.

So as much as my dd2 who's birthday is the 7th Sept, and is still in nursery although her learning and undertanding is the same as those in reception there is nothing I can do about it as her 2004 do not start school until Sept. Hope that makes senses.

Jeo Mon 19-Dec-11 21:01:13

Stupid man, if your son does not start school in September he will just miss the reception year. As wheredid said, he will go straight into year 1 WITH EXACTLY THE SAME CHILDREN. Except those children will have already had a year at school, will have established friendship groups and will be familiar with the routine of school. Unless your ex has some magical way of changing your son's date of birth he will always be the youngest in the year.

Go on Dee, put him straight!!

Dee34 Mon 19-Dec-11 22:39:07


I have just re-read ex's last email (complete with excerpt from some random info site) to double check and he clearly states: "I think children are forced to grow up faster in this society than others. Is being rushed into a system where he will be one of the youngest in larger class, potentially a year behind other people in terms of vocab, emotional development, motor skills etc the better option? Or would DS benefit emotionally longer term by being developed for another year in a class with smaller child to adult ratio*? My preference would be that he was one of the older kids in the class.

DS has peers at the moment due to nursery and contact with other NCT children. His peers will soon be his friends at school – I am not concerned about what his peers are doing, nor should you.' Etc etc......needless to say, I am looking forward to putting him right on this. His lecturing emails were starting to grate big-time. Huge thanks! smile

I am smiling with glee!

* He means keeping DS in nursery - full-time - for another year. No mention of how we could do things so that DS has more one on one attention to maybe help DS develop these missing skills in vocab, emotional development and motor skills that ex has suddenly identified (please let me get my part-time working request granted). Just about keeping him in nursery M-F, 8am to 5.30pm for another very, very cheesed off with that.

cenicienta Mon 19-Dec-11 23:08:17

Absolutely agree with the above... you won't ever be able to stop him being the youngest in the class. What you can do is choose a school for him with a reception that takes things at a more relaxed pace rather than one that pushes children really hard. Some people choose to leave summer borns at nursery for an extra year before starting year 1... but that's something you can decide once you see what's available in your area. Which is why you're doing the work now of looking around!

IME most state school reception classes do tend to take things very much at the pace of the individual child and don't push for academic results. At the end of year 1 I think the targets are a bit firmer. The main issue with summer borns is that they tend to get tired more easily in the beginning. Nothing to do with emotional / psychological damage!

There might also be the chance for DS to start later in the year, occasionally schools have 2 intakes. Something you could always ask about.

You are really the only one who can do what is best for DS. Hold on to that. You're his mum.

Xales Mon 19-Dec-11 23:12:16


Is it just in films or in America can they hold a child back/make them repeat a year if they mess up? I think he may have been talking to his new wife about schooling or some other Americans and not realise that that UK system is different...

Not that I am cynical or suspicious of course!

You do what you think is best for your child. Makes far more sense to me for him to go up with his current peers and maintain friendships than having to start again in nursery for a year THEN go up and find his current friends have moved on without him.

cenicienta Mon 19-Dec-11 23:17:27

Sorry cross posted

1Catherine1 Mon 19-Dec-11 23:24:04

Just come across this thread and have read most of your posts Dee and would just like to say that I think you are pretty amazing. You seem to have dealt with a very difficult situation with a great deal of strengh and kept your dignity in tact. I think if I were you I would have done some unthinkable things. He obviously never deserved you. I hope you and your DS are doing ok.

IJustWannaBeMe Mon 19-Dec-11 23:33:51

I think Dee has mentioned before that x is Scottish? In Scotland, it is possible for the youngest in the year to drop back a year. The youngest in year are those with Jan/Feb birthdays, and those in Nov/Dec can opt to too, I believe, but don't get an extra year's preschool funding.

Agree that in England, school will keep ds with his peer group regardless of development, so he would go straight into Y1 if "held back". And if schools are oversubscribed, you might well not be able to get a place at this stage, if all filled at YR.

Xales - in education, there is no UK system, separate systems in Scotland, NI, England and Wales. <chiponshoulderemoticon>

Xales Mon 19-Dec-11 23:40:15

Just meant over here compared to in the USA.

I didn't know about the Scottish system. Perhaps that is what he is thinking of and I am just super cynical. grin

Why the chip on shoulder?

Have been lurking on both of your threads Dee and am so impressed with you. Just adding to the comments here about schooling. Your ex is showing his ignorance here! Also want to say that my DS2 is an August "baby", although he is now 19. He was always the youngest in his class, but is now one of the most mature young men you could hope to meet. He is bright, emotionally intelligent and altogether lovely - coming home from Uni this week! Yes, some August DCs can struggle with full-time school, but I am sure teachers these days make allowances.

mummytime Tue 20-Dec-11 09:47:08

I think he has been listening to his new wife. In some areas in the US it is normal for summer born boys to start school a year later. With his loved up eyes, he will see whatever she says as gospel. I would gather info from the LA about starting later (ask the schools too if they can give you some) and send it to him.

To be honest I would stop trying to involve him in the decision and just apply for DS to go to the school you think is best. His school place will be choosen on your address not his father's, and no court would overturn you sending him to a good local school.
Actually even if the LA allowed your DS to be down a year, he would almost certainly have to skip a year at secondary (so go from year 5 into year 7; or more likely year 6 to year 8, both pretty disasterous).

In Scotland the cut of point is February/March I think not September.
Reception is a lovely gentle introduction to education. And I know plenty of summer born boys who are doing just fine (this is at 16).

wellthatsdoneit Tue 20-Dec-11 11:52:04

Glad to hear from everyone else! Thought I'd kilt the thread...

Yes, it seems like your ex is probably listening to 'er indoors and getting his wires crossed Dee. My ex claimed though that I had to have his permission to apply for a school place for my ds here as the ex lived out of the borough (in another country in fact). Anyone know if there is any truth to that? He claimed to have phoned the school admissions board who told him, but I've never heard anything from them. He made a whole big song and dance about it actually and claimed in his affidavit that I had obtained a school place for ds FALSELY because I am such a DASTARDLY PERSON. Pot kettle frickin' black mister.

Welcome home Dolly! Isn't London wonderful at christmas? It's also wonderful in the summer (ice creams at the top of richmond hill is one of my faves). It's just wonderful full stop really isn't it. The whole richard-curtis-London-at-christmas thing was one of the things I really missed when I was away. Of course I know it's all chocolate box nonsense but I have a real soft spot for Love Actually and it used to make me very nostalgic at this time of year (not that I ever associated with the prime minister, or even colin firth - yum!). What will you be tucking into whilst you're here? Do they do 'proper' bacon in Australia? That seems to be top of the list for most expats. I'm still stuffing my face with 'proper' sausages, cream teas and the like (kidding myself I'm still in the settling in period). I'd probably have a bit of reverse culture shock were I not so steam rollered by everything else that's happened in the last six months - silver linings eh?!

My birthday is coming up soon and I'm afraid it's one of the Big Ones. I'm thinking about taking myself off for the day and night, with or without the kids, as ex was supposed to be taking me away for it (tickets booked and everything so I suppose he will be taking NW). Any ideas what I might do? Other than keep passing the open windows of course... What would you guys do?

Hello. It's almost like a Christmas Party with us all back isn't it (if it was a Christmas Party with a 'Fuck your ex wife/girlfriend/fiancee and bring your mistress theme').....

...Dee. As others have said, sounds like he has been talking to people from different countries. In Australia for example there is a huge trend for 'keeping boys back' until they are nearly 6 (and they don't go straight into year one they do the kindy/reception year too). You can also 'hold them back' at any point during their DS will be just 5 when the oz term starts in Jan and I can't imagine not sending him then if he continues on the social/learning trajectory he is on but I do know lots of people who will. As others have said I would just carry on and if you get into conflict about it I can't imagine anyone would prevent you sending DS. It also sounds a little like your ex is flexing his 'caring father' muscles rather than genuinely not wanting him to go as if feedback from his childcare/kindy and others is that he is ready why would he want to prevent it?

Oh Well. Sounds like you are going through it at the moment, lots of kisses and hugs. It is shitty and holidays are shitty. Not to get pleasure from others misfortunes but remember all the happy families you see aren't all necessarily happy....bit bah humbug of me but still. I'm so enjoying being back although to your question on food lovely globalisation means you get pretty much everything over there. I will be having lovely Mum's turkey on Christmas Day (vs dry chicken at ex MILs) and have just snarfed a Terry's Chocolate Orange which you can't get in Oz (or at least I don't think so!!)

Now darling. In terms of your birthday I guess you need to decide do you want to spend it with kids, with friends or genuinely on your own? I think being on your own can be a nourishing and quite liberating experience but you have to really kind of know you want to rather than organising something and then being faintly/deeply depressed. I speak from experience as after a break up about 9 years ago (not ex H) I want to Paris for a few days and had an amazing time but about 9 months ago organised a w/end in the City to cheer myself up at reasonable expense and nearly paused at open windows. I think it may end up nicer to spend it with either friends or your children....or a random group of Mumsnetters ; ) but you know yourself best.

Not for your birthday but I also read this article in the ES magazine about a restaurant and thought 'oh if i were in London this is the type of place I may go to when I dont' have DS'. I haven't been there/eaten there so buyer beware but sounds nice.....

Dolly xxx

Simple pleasures
Ducksoup, 41 Dean Street, W1

Following in the footsteps of Polpo and Copita, Ducksoup is the latest super-trendy boutique wine bar to spring up around Soho. With stripped floors, whitewashed walls, hand-scrawled wine lists and a menu that changes daily, it's run by owner Clare Lattin and head chef Julian Biggs, who met while working together at Hix Oyster and Chop House. (Clare is also the publicity director at Quadrille, which published Hix's books, as well as being his ex-girlfriend.)

Clare saw a lack of affordable and unintimidating bars in London where you could pop in, even alone, to eat a quick dinner with a glass of extremely good and reasonably priced wine. 'In Paris you can go out and have one plate and a glass of wine and you've spent a tenner, but you just couldn't do that in London. I live on my own in De Beauvoir Town, so I don't always want to go home and cook. The idea of being able to pop into a place that isn't too formal where you can sit at the bar, have a glass of good wine and something to eat and be home by eight is very appealing. People do that here; we get a lot of women who come in by themselves. In fact, on Friday nights we normally have more people on their own than in pairs.

'Ducksoup is an amalgamation of all our memories and experiences,' she adds. 'It takes a bit of all the places where we've enjoyed eating and drinking on our travels. There is a tiny wine bar in Copenhagen that I stumbled across, just a table and lots of different wines. You could order as much or as little wine as you liked, and eat from a really simple menu. Then, on a wine trip to Burgundy, I went to Le Verre Volé; it's a natural wine bar with no list - they just recommended what to have - and the menu was chalked up on a board. Julian and I have always been great fans of Terroirs, too; we love the natural wine movement so our list nods to that.'

There are no plans to open any more branches at present. 'I only had one burning idea in my head, something timeless,' says Clare.
( 020 7287 4599 ;

ooh and one whinge. former husband (I like that better than ex husband - super posh mum's friend told me she prefered that term and currently I want to be her so I am going with it) emailed aforementioned catty email on Sunday about lack of contact and NOTHING since - no reply to my 'nice' email. This makes me think he is tropical holidaying with mistress turned girlfriend prob about to be wife somewhere with no email access. I know its none of my business (need a kick from Patience) but tres annoying given he made a fuss about me apparently being non contactable when he had the details. Despite the fact I obviously didn't know him that well, I know him enough to know he means how annoying you don't have mobile I can text you on as that is the only manner I can as I am swanning off with my big pots of cash and not on computer or mobile internet but I can't tell you that as it 'makes me look bad' so I'll just turn the tables and virtually shout at you instead. Fucker. Sorry. Have flu, paracetamol and now nearly 2 x gin and tonics. About to take 2 x temazapan as got sleeping tablets from dr for first time in year to deal with jet lag. bit like valley of the dolls round here without the hairspray xxx

Dee34 Tue 20-Dec-11 22:54:02

Thanks everyone for the spot on advice (confirmed with a couple of friends who are primary school teachers - I thought I was going barmy on this as ex was insistent that DS be kept back). Laid out all the advice and above points to ex in a VERY CLEAR email. Got a surprisingly 'humble' response where he thanked me for laying things out very clearly for him (and spending the time to do this!) and that what I had written was the most compelling thing he had read in terms of position to take.....honestly, it is so bizarre it is bordering on bonkers. Happy to let it go now, suggested that he make himself an appointment or two at the schools in the new year (am betting that wont happen, but have said my piece now), but I dont want to discuss this again with him (definitely not this year).

I was also thinking that he had been 'influenced' by someone with a US background as thats what always happens in US TV dramas/films that involve teens. I got into a bit of panic as he was literally like a dog with a bone and would not let go of this point. Highly worrying that he can be like this and yet not even know the full facts of what he is spouting. Though like Springy suggested above, I would have laid bets that ex would never have taken this approach before (i.e. he would have been more reasonable, would have done his research etc). I do think its a bit of asserting his position as DS' dad (esp as he couldnt make it to the schools - again, bizarre that he was hell-bent that DS be kept back a year and yet he has not even stepped foot in one school to inform his decision) and maybe reminding me that he is in control here (could give you all a laugh by repeating his stunned response that maybe I could meet someone and move away from the area - as has been said, dont think that he planned for me to deviate from his well thought out script and my place - at the bottom of the heap, doing his bidding, weeping over him and how I have lost him). One good thing about this interaction - even though I got that pit of my stomach feeling in terms of bracing myself for another row, I also felt detached from ex on a huge level. I mean, I felt totally disengaged with him and felt like I was looking at this from the outside. My overriding feeling today has been one of 'thank goodness I dont have to live with a man that can act like this and come up with such nonsense from an ill-informed position'.

So, huge, huge thanks again. A slightly crap experience, but another good learning point and a leap of MY OWN emotional intelligence/development in the right direction away from ex.

Dolly - quick one about thinking about your ex....please dont think this! Easier said than done and I remember being haunted of images of ex and newgf/wife having cosy love-ins, whilst I was catching up on endless chores or soothing DS to sleep. Even happened recently when I mused about them and how he could spend xmas here with her now and couldn't for me. But even that now seems like water off a ducks back. I keep coming back to the fact that I would rather be here by myself/with DS than be with ex as the person he now is. New wife is very much welcome to the so-called new and improved version. Honestly, he looks so miserable some mornings when he comes round for DS, I am half tempted to give him an olive branch to get the gossip on what the latest is in paradise, but wont go there as not that interested and certainly dont want him to think I am interested in him (of course, he could be utterly miserable at the thought of having to see me, but them's the breaks for him! smile). Someone once wrote on here that we have no idea of what is going on behind closed doors or even what is going on in our ex's minds and their own (possible) mental battles with their situations. Remind yourself of what your ex has done/is doing when those thoughts creep in and remind yourself that he is not the person you knew. Whilst he is taking romantic strolls (if he is indeed doing that), she will know deep down that he cheated on the mother of his child, his wife for her - who's to say he wont do it again? Keep thinking of the bright future that lies ahead for you and your DS - roll on 2012!

Dee34 Thu 22-Dec-11 11:34:14

Dolly - how are you doing today? Hope you are busy having a fab time with friends/family/DS in the UK [fmsile]

Slight update - been on the phone to the local authority and they are sending some stuff in the post, so will be able to challenge (or at least profer some proper evidence to him, though doubt that he will come back on this again). Also forgot to say thanks for the words of reassurance from those that have summer borns and how your DCs have adapted, coped and thrived.....

Well - birthdays.....hmmm, I would definitely take myself off somewhere if possible day and night. Will you have your DCs? How about somewhere you have always fancied visiting? Or a pamper day (lots of deals seem to be on - at least in our area). Or try something random (those deal websites have a few experience type days on for reduced prices?). Or do something at home and treat yourself in some way? My bday is in Feb and a couple of friends insisted on dragging me out for a meal and drinks which was good medicine though so just wanted to stay at home and do nothing all day/evening (stupid ex sent me a card saying something like 'all the best for the future' - this was 5 weeks after his bombshell and in the week where he was 'playing' me with wanting to take me out for a meal to discuss our future etc and talking about dating again whilst then OW/new girlfriend/now wife was literally winging her way here - she was actually staying with him on my birthday and that meal he had planned for us was convenientley scheduled for the afternoon after ex would have dropped her off at the airport in the morning. Needless to say once I got wind of that (air-dryer/clothes horse gate!) the 'date' was called off and my eyes started opening a bit more to the reality of the situation..... BUT, I am rambling!). What do you feel like doing?

wellthatsdoneit Sat 24-Dec-11 19:14:22

No time to respond properly but just wanted to wish you all a wonderful christmas and a new year with strength, solace and peace xxxxxxxxx

Dee34 Mon 26-Dec-11 22:01:02

And a merry Christmas to you Well and indeed everyone else. Hope that the seasonal holidays have been good fun and better experiences for anyone that had a crappy time last year...

Things have been good here. Have my mum, aunt and sister over (they are off on Weds). Have troughed too much (good job bootcamp starts up again in Jan! May need to do a detox before then though...) and guzzled wine like its going out of fashion. DS has had/is having a good time (I think/hope). I have had him from Christmas Eve evening through to Thursday am when ex comes over and picks him up and...takes him to Scotland for belated celebrations there. Am 'okay' with the idea in that I knew it had to happen sooner rather than later. Am biting my tounge with the knowledge that this time last year, I was there with ex and DS (admitedly having a crap time, so I am not missing that aspect at all) and that ex was discussing his then OW with his Dad whilst I slept upstairs and that he was secretely testing and calling her from the bedroom we were sharing. And pushing down any thoughts of the glowing new ideal family unit having fun. Also, ex says he won't need DS' passport so even more relaxed now as still wouldn't put it past him to do a flit there...So, I have a few days of r&r (and missing DS) to fill in....Have thought long and hard about some of the positive words and advice on here and the mantra that 'this too will past'. I thought I would have a wobble and put on those rose tinted glasses and have a memory/cry about ex/us but (thankfully) it hasn't happened (yet). Course, may come later this week when DS is away...I had to dig deep to distill my anger when ex disclosed that he would be going away with new wife today and tomorrow. Only found out after I asked ex to bring something DS had left at his (thinking he was around the corner). No, they were away, but he could come back from wherever they were (alone) for a couple of hours and drop off stuff and also spend time with DS or perhaps me as well if I was free, so DS could see us together as his parents. Beyond bizzare and I turned down his offer (can't be having a rocking time if he wants to spend time with me of all people). He then asked if I was free on Thurs (handover day for DS) for a possible playdate with DS (again, said no. I felt bad in that I just don't feel like I could do it right now - even for DS' sake and I feel utterly selfish for that. But I think even though I am doing okay at the moment, coming up to the anniversary of when this all kicked off on NYE will mean that I may possibly lash out and even if I didn't, I don't think I could fake a friendly atmoshphere/attitude with ex for an hour plus and DS may pick up on it..). I have had a flurry of photos from him of DS (am guessing over the last few days when he has been at his dads). I begrudgingly* bought him a cheapo pressie from DS (a Lynx box-set on discount at Tescos), only as it was a pressie from DS and it is nice (I guess) for DS to give his dad a present and learn the whole giving gifts thing. And that's that.

I really need to start 2012 on a positive note and without any nonsense from ex. So am determined to follow that path (knowing that I can do a hell of a lot myself to limit my exposure to any crap, deflect any mini bombs etc). I feel like this past year has been an almighty steep learning curve and there are times when I feel like I cant wait for 2012 to come round to move on and get past the 'this time last year' pits....

Hope everyone is well and taking good care.

* Would have rather it wasn't done begrudgingly on my part as means I have a lot of work to do on mastering my zen like state of positivity and moving on from the past! But DS felt good I think handing the present over.

PS: Writing this whilst family have hogged the TV controls!

McNaughtyTheSnowman Mon 26-Dec-11 22:58:47

Dee, Hi smile

Sorry I have not been around, its just been busy and I would write and write if I could grab the time. I have followed your thread and its lovely to see you coming through this and having the guts to say 'no' to you Ex and his Ego.

I always knew that you had inner strength and that your love for your DS would pull you through all of this. Its more than a match for your Ex and his recently acquired wife.

The thing is that their break-neck speed romance and even speedier visa securing wedding means that all the things he could do to keep the momentum going have run out. He's down to the bare bones of himself now and he's actually married this time. He's invested a lot in this new relationship and the glow of his money only lasts a certain amount of time. There's noway that he will suddenly have become Mr Generous. Wonder if she's clocked that yet. Plus, he has a son and Ex. When you're in the heady romancing stage of a relationship, you promise the earth and say that nothing's a problem. Wonder if she feels the same now with a slimy git, stuck in the UK... has she met his family yet? grin Of course, that will be another joy for her to relish!

Dee, you are doing everything right. Don't ever feel sorry for him. He's a complete tosser and you are worth so much more. Keep being a step head of him... he'll soon work out that he'll never catch up with you and, despite him telling you he's happy, he'll always know that leaving his own child will give him nightmares for many years.

Hi Darl

Glad your Christmas was lovely and that you are managing to keep going with the detachment - it sounds like with his overtures about playdates etc etc he isn't making it easy but sounds like you are doing well! I shall take inspiration from you as having a bit of crash down to earth day today. Christmas Day and Boxing Day were OK and I was making a real effort to be cheery and fun and enjoyed seeing my nephews play with DS etc etc and was OK company I think but today I think the effort of that combined with a few other things that shoudn't matter so much have sent me on a bit of a spiral downwards. Essentially ex didn't reply to any emails about arranging time to speak to DS but did call him on Christmas Day - when they had finished I asked him why he hadn't responded to emails and he claimed he had not received them. I said that I found that hard to believe but resend to work address - he said that I had an amazing capacity to turn any conversation unpleasant and that he did not want to have any unpleasant conversations on Christmas Day. I said I can understand that so lets finish the conversation and (childishly I know) put the phone down. He then phoned back to say did you you put phone down and listen to me I did not receive emails etc and I said OK thanks and put phone down again. He then called back but this time DS was around and heard phone so I just handed phone to DS to say Daddy has called again because he didn't get enough kisses or something and then after they had spoken put the phone down and he didn't call back. I forwarded the emails (about arranging Skype contact) to his work email to get a response that he is away for a MONTH and one and offline I know he can do what he likes and it ISNT my business but I guess the thought of him having so much time with OW and the fact he is using NO holiday to spend with DS plus the fact he has so much $$ to spend on holidays is annoying. My ex FIL also emailed today to say thankyou for gifts etc and said that as he expects I know ex is on his way to New York.....again, he can do what he likes I get that but it just seems so odd that he keeps all this from his son (who I guess is so small it doesn't matter) so I guess what I mean is that I am pissed off by it but I also know I have no right to. Does this make any sense? I am trying to work out why I feel so awful today. I think I am jealous of his freedom to a degree (although of course he has the very thin end of the wedge as he does not get to see DS) and also I was in love with him for so long that it is hard to switch off emotions and hard to know he and OW are fricking trotting around Central Park in care free manor. God I'm divorced now, its been over a year but still it hurts so much and I feel I have very much slid down the ladder. It also isn't helping that he has not paid child support this month or some money he owes for an essential repair to house that he agreed to pay half of so have zero money and having to chase him for that. It all feels so very very far from what I wanted my life to be. Pity fest over. Kick me someone x

Dee34 Tue 27-Dec-11 19:25:44

Hi McNaughty - how are things with you? Hope all is well and that you had a lovely Christmas.

Thanks hugely for the kind words - as always, means a lot.....I do need reminding at times that ex is not some dreamy Mr Darcy that I have lost out on (though think he has carved himself out as such).

Yes, she has met his family - once - way back in April when she was here for a flying in and 'meet the family' trip (which by then would have been the fifth chunk of time ex had spent with her since they met in Oct 2010. I still look back in wonder and am amazed that he/they had talked about getting married at this stage (or indeed earlier)). I have nothing against a good old romance but it sits at odds with ex as I knew him (of course, maybe I never really knew him!) and the fact that he entered into this not as a single man with no attachments, but with DS in the background. He still trots out the lines that new wife will never want to move back to the US as she knows that DS is ex's priority ('duh, Dee34, that's why she moved here in the first place')....of course they have that one and only crystal ball where they can forecast their future (once she has her own kids, she will never crave to raise them back in the US, where ex's £ will go further as a $ etc etc - and mine; ex thinks I should be able to find a new partner amongst the pool of available men in our town so I don't need to move elsewhere look elsewhere. Old convo I have already repeated on here, but now, I just shake my head and feel pity for the man (and her a bit). But, think I have stopped feeling sorry for him (though get the occasional stab of sentimental chords stuck in my head wrt DS).....Funnily enough, they (his family) did not attend the wedding (though not that much of a shocker as it was abroad) and have not been down since their visit here back in April (in the old days, they would have been down for August for DS' bday and again in Oct for ex's mum's bday - but I think its more to do with the fact that they no longer have access to that second large en-suite we had in old house and the large garden/rooms they could lounge around in all day. Also suspect that ex knows how much of an arse his Dad his and is maybe happy to keep everything separate for as long as poss. He already assured me back in Jan that he knew his Dad was a pain and that he would not let him pull any crap with new woman. Such a gent and such a catch confused).

Am starting on a list of things I would like to do/achieve in 2012 - some highly ambitious, but hey, aim for the stars and all that....I feel like I am becoming the person I was back in the early days of being with ex. Slowly, slowly getting back to me again!

Patienceobtainsallthings Tue 27-Dec-11 19:53:22

Dolly all completely normal,yep its none of your business but yep ur ex is an ARSEHOLE !!!!!Lets just leave it at that yeah ,the none of your business mantra is just that nothing good comes from going down that road ,your in a new chapter of your life yeah and its a better one.But feel ur anger ,work through it like any emotion then let it go .Just keep releasing the toxins and fling a few fucks about if you need to .THIS TOO SHALL PASS and you will come back stronger ,the wound from the split is still healing but dealing with a dickhead ex is very wearing ,big hugs and bring on 2012 xxxx

Patienceobtainsallthings Tue 27-Dec-11 19:56:43

Loving your list Dee .....2012 with see us flourish !

Hello wise ladies - need your advice. Ex is just over a week late in paying his child support and half the home insurance (usually paid on 21st) plus half of a repair bill to longstanding issue on house which he agreed to pay in early December. He hasn't told me, but I know from FIL he is in New York. I have sent him 2 x emails, 1 x VM and have called him a couple of times but it rings out and can't leave a message. No 1. I really need money as in Oz you have to pay marketing costs for real estate agents upfront which has wiped me out and No 2. I am pissed off he has just swanned off on holiday and is seemingly uncontactable. It may well be his phone doesn't work in the US but as a father I would have thought you may have mentioned you were travelling and given contact details. Anyway oh MN jury. Should I a. continue emailing/calling him every few days until I get a response b. wait until he calls to speak to DS which I assume will be next week or so to ask him then c. ask his parents if they have any other contact details for him or d. contact lawyer. Don't really see the point of d. as it will cost me and I honestly assume the direct debit bounced back as he was OD or something rather than any malice in the non payment but royally fucked off as I'm not working/getting paid whilst I'm in the UK and have just had to pay a massive bill as a result of him banging his drum about selling house. Thoughts please (am attempting not to be too hair trigger going forward so really not sure of what is reasonable in this situation) - thank you xxx

Patienceobtainsallthings Wed 28-Dec-11 21:46:46

Just so bloody controlling DD,he will know all this is happening and just remain passive ,try not to react to him because he will just give a patronising "calm down dear "
No advice on how to get paid unless it can be done legally ,sorry ,but empathise cos my ex pays £240 a year for 2 kids and i cant do anything about it x

Not sure if it helps as i'm more of a lurker then a poster but

Personnly I would contact your lawyer so a record is made of his non payments as if i remember correctly you have let other missed payments that he should have been making slide until you really need to use them . And I would also his parents and ask if they can pass on the message that he has not paid what he is due, and you have no option but to go to your lawyer.

He really is a B*******D.

Patienceobtainsallthings Wed 28-Dec-11 21:55:13

Yep many of them become bastards as soon as money is involved and they have a new partner .

Patience. I am truly shocked that the 'system' allows your ex to pay such a paltry amount for your two children. Even assuming he is on benefits, I am staggered that he is able to pay such an infintesimal amount. It makes me feel quite militant indeed. When I win the lottery I shall be setting up a grant type charity for single parents whose ex's turn out to be c*nts. Sorry darling. I am lucky by comparision financially. Thankfully your children have a tigress yet zenlike mother to make all well for them!! Where - thanks for your rallying words. I'm going to sit on it until Friday and then take action. It really isn't on and I really don't have any money. Fortunately I am in a position where I can easily borrow some from my parents (or come to that his parents) but I know that isn't the point and given he earns way in excess of £150K and has just jetted off to New York the least he could do is ensure that 5% of his fecking salary is transfered to his only son. And with that I shall aim to take Patience's lead and be calm (darling you should be a life coach ; ) x

Dee34 Thu 29-Dec-11 14:11:47

Dolly - sorry, missed your last post before I uploaded mine! I dont have any other advice to add to the excellent advice offered already. I think wheredidiputits advice about contacting his folks first would be good. You have a good relationship with them, so you will have covered this base (if ex comes back saying you could have let my parents know etc. Not saying this is your responsibility at all, but then you will have done all that you can and may shame him into coughing up a bit quicker if he sees that his parents know what he is up to iyswim?). Second the legal route - esp of he has already missed payments........

Patience - will crack on with that list and totally agree about changes coming about with money and new partners at play. I wonder if ex would have been this much of a pain if he had gone off by himself and then maybe met a completely new/neutral person??!

Sorry - venting/offloading coming up.....

Right now, my heart is breaking as just had to wave off DS for his mini-holiday to Scotland. As he was going he mentioned new wife's name (had to bite my tongue at that. Definitely one of those moments when I could pull a 'rent-a-man' from my back pocket just so ex can hear DS mentioning another man's name. Bad I know!). Just before then, got into a mini argument with ex on the doorstep which was upsetting. I know that I wound myself up mostly here as started to mull over all the things that ex was now doing for new wife and DS (fair enough - know that for DS, these are things that he now has to step up to the plate to do, but still cheeses me off. E.g. he has a pile of presents for DS and yet, when we were together, he never once made an effort to get off his lazy backside and buy DS anything for his birthday or Christmas present. Fair enough, on the bigger purchases I made he would give me half the money, but he was never interested in suggesting what to buy or going round the shops/looking online, though think a fair few blokes/dads can be like this?! I have no idea....). His big reveal this time is that he will be taking DS into Glasgow to go and visit friends who also have children. Fair enough, they are/were ex's friends before I met him but the female half of this friendship - will call them A&B - used to email me and call me confiding in me that she thought her hubby was having an affair with his female boss. I used to poo-poo the idea, as did ex at the time, but it turns out that he was (only found this out in Jan when ex admitted it was true - when I compared our situation to theirs, he just said that their's was complicated!!! Which maybe means that the cheating man still loved his wife unlike my ex hmm. Anyway, used to comfort her on that, and when she had a miscarriage a few years ago. When ex went to Scotland in Jan, I (to my shame) practically begged her to speak to ex and see what was happening. She said no, ex was her and hubby's friend first and foremost, wished me good luck in the future and then went on to upload photos of ex out on the lash with Scots friends on her FB page, whilst I was here in the UK, chewing my nails, dusting down my CV, looking after a bewildered DS and wondering what the f**k had happened in the last 2 weeks (this was two weeks after he got back from SF, dropped his bombshell etc. He had only gone to Scotland as I said to him I wanted him out of the house and he had nowhere to go in the UK/local area. This was also the trip where when ex phoned for DS, he passed the phone to his mum who was in the background who proceeded to babble to DS and not even say boo to me......those were the days). When we went to Scotland for xmas with DS last 2 years I always said lets go and see A&B, ex used to say, no, no time, want to spend time with my family. Now, he is going for 4 nights, which is a much shorter time than we ever went and, ah, oh yes, he can squeeze a visit in! I shouldn't ramble too much about him/them/situation as its in the past and I can see for myself the truth about the whole friendship thing with ex's friends (and to be honest, I have not missed them in the last year) but gets my goat at times......will let it out and move on and be thankful that I dont have to rely on ex or his friends for any emotional support.

And at today's pick-up, yet more suggestions of a playdate for all three of us. I think either ex is feeling sorry for me or he has been reading some parenting books or getting advice from other folk. This time, he says that he has clubcard vouchers that we can use to go on a day out, somewhere like Legoland. Have to admit, couldn't contain my contempt for this and curtly told him no thanks (hmmm, using vouchers from his shopping with new wife and then trundling up in a car for HOURS together?! And of course no empathy to think - hmmm, this time last year, I had just told Dee34 that I didnt love her and was secretly plotting to go to SF to visit my OW and pledge undying love to her.....maybe I should hold off on any silly suggestions for now....makes me feel like I am a tick in the box for him/them to be seen doing the right thing. Can imagine how keen he would be to shout that out from the rooftops if I had agreed or heaven forbid, there would be photos of all three of us plastered on his FB page grin!!! On Christmas Eve, he was banging on about watching some video clips from our last big family holiday to France and how he wanted to try and get copies done for me and how he was sad (and yet he was so, so miserable with me/family life), so think this is what is triggering all this playdate stuff and him going on about how he would like to do this for DS. Makes me feel guilty, as know DS would love it, but I just cant right this weird?

Phew long post, but that feels good. Head feels a bit lighter and feel ready to crack on with the list of things I have planned out to do whilst DS is away/before I head off for NYE....

PS: I have probably written complete rambling drivel above, but just needed the space to unload, else ex would be getting a very terse email. Feeling better already.

Hi Darling

I very much understand about the friend think rankling with you. I think it is human nature and however much you can 'understand' the position of the previously mutual but ultimately the 'other ones' friends, it does hurt when they continue to spend time with ex and OW. It IS understandable - and perhaps we would do similar in their position - but is also DOES hurt very much. When we were a couple a good friend of my DH split with his wife (her decision as he became a very highly paid functioning alcoholic and after rehab failed again she called time) and I continued to make overtures to be friendly to her whilst DH and me occassionally still seeing her DH but she eventually stopped returning my calls etc. At the time I was a bit hurt and in my married bubble a bit like 'gosh can't she understand I can be her friend and still see her ex' but now I TOTALLY understand that it was too much for her to deal with. It is also v. annoying that he is now finding the time to spend with them but I would also (I'm having to do this to myself) remind you that he was prob like that with you at first too until the mundane responsibilities of family life get in the way.

Playdate thing is weird given recent backdrop. Possibly a. parenting books b. wifey gets a bit bored doing these things c. he is in his own bubble and all along seems to want cake and eat it of which this is a good example (champagne and truffles with wifey and legoland and chips with Dee and DS) you say when and if you are in a place where you feel able to do this then it may be good for DS but not if you are going to be sitting there spitting bullets. You say that DS would love it and you feel guilty. He would feel worse if you want and he heard you arguing or picked up on the hostility so please don't feel bad about it. It may or may not come in time.

It seems we are on similar irritant paths. Having found out half of mortgage (for which he is legally obliged) not paid Nov and Dec as well as child support, kept calling ex mobile until he answered. As suspected 'oh thought i had, sorry will pay it - although slightly more irritated than that sounds and began with I have paid it, no you haven't, yes I have type conversation - anyway, that sorted called in DS to speak to ex.

Now given in Australia it would have been 4am in the morning he may have twigged that I knew he was overseas but no. DS says 'where are you Daddy'. ex says 'I'm in a big shopping mall'. DS says 'are you in Australia Daddy? Ex says 'I'm here there and everywhere DS' I'm too irritated at this point not to say 'its OK ex we know you're in NY, DS looked it up on the map and he thinks it sounds nice etc' as I couldn't face hearing him lie to him outright which I felt coming. DS then asks in manner of MI6 Al Queada operation being busted 'how do you know that'....I changed subject, DS got bored and left room. I told him his father had chattily mentioned it as he like most normal people would assume its not a state secret and that you would want to ensure I didn't call etc in middle of night/had contact numbers. He then said in very load patronising voice as OW was obviously glued to him 'You are being unecessarily unpleasant EW' I replied 'no I am pointing out that in my opinion being uncontactable re your son and not paying legally required bills is unacceptable but I will leave you now to enjoy your holiday'......honestly at the time shaking with anger but I need need need need need to try and switch off from this and just be transactional. I want to smash his stupid holidaying in expensive hotels, buying stupidly expensive gifts in shopping malls for adulterous girlfriend, being too lazy to pay bills properly, stupid fat head in. There. I feel better now too Dee after that vent....must be something in the air tonight....

on the upside, my parents are out at a party tonight so its me, a bottle of wine and the second series of Downtown Abbey to make a dent in....will finish the wine at least xx

cenicienta Thu 29-Dec-11 20:00:38

Dee please don't feel guilty about saying no to ex.

Your ds does not need to see you doing things together.

He does need to see you both treating each other with respect. Speaking well of each other. Encouraging positive interaction with the other parent. Generally modelling responsible, respectful adult interaction.

That is how he will learn to be a kind, humane, respectful and responsible person himself. Not by playing happy families at Legoland!

You've come such a long way since you first started posting, you seem to have learned to detatch and see things objectively, putting ds and his needs first above your own inevitable feelings of hurt and rejection. That won't have gone unnoticed.

Tell ex simply that you think his suggestion of family play dates is inappropriate, and always will be, though you hope that you will always be able to communicate your mutual respect for each other to your ds.

Patienceobtainsallthings Fri 30-Dec-11 00:29:24

bless u dolly re zen like tigress
re ex signing on {ran business into the ground after promising kids £400 a month}they have to pay £5 a week out of benefits regardless of how many kids,if he gets gf pg my kids money gets cut as i understand it.

Patienceobtainsallthings Fri 30-Dec-11 00:31:04

think woman in the AB couple does whats shes told tbh x

Patienceobtainsallthings Fri 30-Dec-11 00:32:10

shes def not a tigress with zen qualities

wellthatsdoneit Fri 30-Dec-11 18:31:35

Still no time to reply properly but just wanted to give those who need it a big unmumsnetty super-hug. Ex has been here for 4 days seeing the children (goes home tonight thank god) and I am having the most awful time. He has now nobly and heroically told me that he has met someone else (but after we separated according to him and so therefore it was not cheating). Rather than rolling out the red carpet I seem to have surprised him by venting my spleen at him instead, which has been long overdue to be honest. Although I have always known realistically there was someone else, I am devastated all over again and really struggling. There is so much that I am sad and angry about (not just the breathtaking speed with which I have been replaced) but I think you have all been there and know the kind of man I am talking about - water off a duck's back and missing those qualities that are quintessentially human - and I know there is nothing I can do but avoid avoid avoid. I am so glad he lives in another country - every time he is here I am damaged by him.

He also expected to play happy families after his announcement which I was just not able to do, so I totally understand your feelings of conflict and guilt Dee. I am a human being with thoughts and feelings and needs, something which I feel has been denied to me for the last seven years living in his country, and I deserve to be treated like one and am doing the very best I can.

Roll on two thousand and fucking twelve. Just taking it a minute at a time at the moment. Each minute that passes is a minute further away from my ex and this pain.

Did you guys ever get to meet up by the way?

Dolly - please tell us more about the fabulous super posh lady with the former husband. We need some role models!

It will be the making of us it will be the making of us it will be the making of us (lather, rinse, repeat).

Kisses to all xx

Hi Well

Sorry you have had a rotten Xmas with revelations and the angst that goes with that. Of course you are struggling. You would not be human if you weren't. You took your relationship seriously and it is absolutely natural and 'ok' to be feeling such pain. I would whisk it away in a heartbeat if I could as i know the devastation of it but it makes you a good person to be feeling it as you were loyal and loving and caring when married. It just sucks and I know from experience that nothing can make it any better aside from that old cliche time and even then you have your ups and terms of meeting up nothing yet but we are hoping for NY Day in central London so if you are around PM us!!

Now as requested, not sure I can do justice without acting it out but will try. So. Imagine someone with accent posher than Queen (she went to Switzerland for finishing school)......she rings daughers house and I answer as thought was daughter who was at hairdressers. She asks about DS and what he is having for Christmas and how grandparents are excited to see him etc.....she then says (trying to make me feel better as she has three children) - and imagine super posh accent in a kind of trendier Maggie Smith on Downtown Abbey kind of way....

'Oh only children are a delight, I taught in a school and only children are so lovely. You do know my youngest daughter (Y - the younger sister of my friend) is having a baby in February when she is nearly 40. Her daugher is 6. Rather her than me having another baby at that age I don't know what she is thinking, silly girl it sounds quite ghastly to me, you should thank your lucky stars you are not up to your elbows in shit and piss again darling, one shudders and I am only the grandparent.....'

Followed up by 'How are you, how is your morale'. Me: I'm OK thank you X, bit difficult year but gettting there....X:

"Honestly. [daugher] has told me what has been going on. Men are such FUCKERS. Dreadful. All of them. You know I divorced [daughter's] father when she was young. Mind you to be fair he was actually quite a nice man. The problem is he was terrifically terrifically dull and actually quite mean financially so he had to go, it was like being held hostage at a ball with a dreary great aunt that would only buy you non-vintage champagne. My second husband Z. Now he was an absolute SHIT. Won't elaborate but would make your hair curl. My third husband A has his moments. Honestly. Taken en masse they {men} should all be rounded up en masse and shot. The Bolsehviks has the right idea really although I am partial to Faberge so it was a shame they destroyed so much of that. You know my step son is fucking around on his wife with an 8 month old. Mind you she was married before and had two children so should have known that some men become babies when their wives have babies and can't deal with being second fiddle. WHAT FUCKERS. I prefer dogs, honestly, so much more loving and undemanding and mostly more intelligent. That said he [ex} sounds like a very bad egg indeeed and you know there are some nice eggs even if they are a bit simple. You just need to look pretty and pretend you listen to them and if you want you will marry again. [entirely non-sequitously]...'does he c*unt'...Me: Sorry X, what did you say. She: C*nting'. Me: Its a bad line sorry X (thinking what the F is she talking about'. She: 'C*nt...if he can C*nt, you should get your parents to busy UNO, its a terrific game for little ones.... ; ) ....Such a funny conversation and so very Dunkirk I say, possibly doesn't translate but like a Catherine Tate sketch!!

Lots of love xxxx

Patienceobtainsallthings Fri 30-Dec-11 21:18:55

love it dolly,so wish i got more maintenance so i could fly to london,ps we got UNO for xmas ,lost the rules.
new tricks is on tv.,dd just spotted James Bolam,Its Grampa in my pocket

wellthatsdoneit Fri 30-Dec-11 21:24:46

Dolly, you have cheered me up IMMEASURABLY with that post - if I was the type to use facebook I would re-post super fabulous posh lady's comment as my status....

It made me cry too. Thank you for your kindness. It means more than you will ever know. My children have been returned to me and we are snuggled up watching toy story. The dreadful shit that is my ex will be on a plane in the next 7 hours and I am feeling much more relaxed. He has been told in no uncertain terms that the children and I deserve a good life and to be treated with respect and humanity and I will not be taking any nonsense from him. Now we can get back to our new lives and look to the future.

I don't think I will make a london meet up on NYD (I am up in the woolly wilds of the north east where there are dragons and goblins and such like), but I hope you all manage to do it. I want you to report back with tales of cocktails and private members' clubs and snogging of minor royalty and formula one drivers etc.

Dee34 Fri 30-Dec-11 22:08:50

So going from throwing out ideas about spending time together as a threesome, ex now seems unable to facilitate a phone call between DS and I whilst they are in Scotland. It makes me feel like a right mug, having spent the last year facilitating calls between DS and ex (including those excessive twice a day calls that went on for months....). I always try and make sure that DS is away from noise/background atmosphere/in private so that he and ex can speak freely (including temp walking out of a party, stopping the car whilst driving, going into another room etc etc). I also try and make sure he is free of distractions (easier said than done) and knows that his Daddy will be, got a text to say there were eating dinner at 7.30pm (!!) and he would call when they were free. He did and all I heard was an array of voices in the background (some talking to DS) whilst I struggled to hear anything or be heard. All I could hear was echos before the line got disconnected. Sent a text message back and no reply, almost 2 hours so upset, think it's accentuated by the fact that DS is where he is (this time last year, ex had jetted out to be with then OW) and the company he is with (OW, ex, ex's parents who knew about the affair and quite possibly what ex was planning to do as they passed the tin of Roses round....). And I didn't get to say a word to DS. Again, trying to see this from the perspective that DS was probably off having a whale of a time and having fun which is good....but, this has given me food for thought for the future. Dont want to do tit for tat, but seems a bit unfair (though I may just be being sensitive). Also, this is the first time that ex has reacted like this when I have phoned. If he had been here, he would have phoned back or sent a text back, so again, the paranoid me is thinking that he is sat there being geed up by his wife, parents, friends/whoever he is with - to not bother contacting me back. Thing I don't understand is his reactions given that he is the one that relies on phone calls (and is more insistent and demanding of them) more than me, especially with all his travel for business and pleasure. I guess I am the black mark that is there to spoil their mood by reminding them that I exist.....whinge over.

Well hugs to you. And agree with the sentiment about 2012 rolling on....can't wait as will no longer be able to think to myself 'this time last year...' and have thoughts of being with ex/being as a family/being in old house. Instead will be 'this time last year I had embarked on my new life/started new job etc etc'......hope that 2012 is better! Agree also about the playing happy families stance - sometimes I just stare at ex in disbelief (less so, as am getting used to the new him now I guess) at some of the things he comes out with or does. It's like 'do you not have any empathy or any emotional intelligence to perhaps think twice before saying x/y/z?'. My ex does have emotional intelligence, but he just cant dish it out in two directions (or at least not to me) it seems. Shame as that could have possibly made this whole journey a bit more palatable....

Dolly - love the story!

Dee34 Fri 30-Dec-11 22:26:13

cenicienta - thank-you. I do feel guilty (even now after today's phone call farce). Yes, need to be firm with him so he doesn't come back with another suggestion (hopefully he gets that it's the idea of spending time with him that is the issue and not the location as he just went from a local playcentre to a theme park!), so its a good message to repeat that this suggestion in itself is inappropriate. Hmmmmm, think ex doesn't get the whole mutual respect thing for the other parent. Work in progress and there is only so much I can do (not a lot probably).

Patience - yes, woman in A&B is a bit like that. My anger yesterday about ex going to see them was more fuelled from rejection and some sense of preferential treatment for new wife (which of course ex is entitled to do now, just that he didn't do these things when we were together). To be honest, I would rather be here (albeit with DS though) than spending time with A&B and ex needs all the friends he can get (he doesn't have many left here), so hope they enjoy their evening.

Right, back to my ever-growing list of things to do in 2012 (latest point is to re-do the 'book a week' challenge that I did in 2007, err, before DS was born! But guess I have a fair few evenings and alternate weekends to work my way through my growing pile*).

In case I don't get back on tomorrow - wishing everyone a fantastic new year. Huge thanks for the wonderful words of wisdom, advice and straight talking from everyone. It's been a hell of a year and I know that I would not be in the position I am in now (full of hope, courage and strength, which can sometimes take a battering!) without MN and you all. A very, very un-mumsnet hug to everyone. Thank-you!

* unless I get distracted by a very nice man along the way. Please. smile

Patienceobtainsallthings Sat 31-Dec-11 00:36:48

WTDI ,good your in the North ,we should do a Northern meet up if you fancy it !
Sorry you had to see your twat ex.They all rewrite history ,to ease their guilt,Hope no more big nasties to be revealed,hope you can start healing properly now that court and his "big news" is out in the open.Cut me in half when ex told me he was moving on and why can i not be happy for them,hmmalthough he admitted it was a "friendship" for first 7 mths ,twat and a tiny part of me believed it cos he didnt actually admit it ,I know i was just completely in denial but hey ,i think its called hope.Anyway it did break me free from him and the way he dumped his kids .Big hugs WTDI and we might have a drink or 2 one day soon x

Happy New Year Everyone! Hope everyone managed to have a good one or at least an OK one and that where possible we are able to draw a line under a shitty 2011 and enjoy a much better 2012 (I feel quite far away from this but in the manner of 'if we build it, it will come' way if I write it, it may become true ; )

The lovely lovely part of the New Year was that Dee and I managed a meet up on New Year's Day for a lovely long lunch at - only posting so you can imagine us and as Well was hoping for tales of private members club and formula one racing drivers, it was very club like and a bit dark, cosy and glam. It probably won't surprise any of you to know that in RL Dee is fabulous, entertaining and quite annoyingly beautiful and we talked (in a nice way) about all of you lovely ladies who have helped us throught the last year. In actual fact we even sneaked in an extra glass of Proseco at the bar post lunch as we hadn't technically toasted all of you and we felt we couldn't write to say we had if we didn't actually do it so glasses were clinked and you were all toasted appreciatively. Hopefully in a portentious way, the barman flirted with Dee and the French waiter flirted with me - neither of whom you would necessarily want to flirt with you - but still - life in the old dogs (Dee being a younger dog than me ; ) yet......

THANK YOU ALL for your sage advice, care and patience over the last year xxxx

Dee34 Thu 05-Jan-12 17:10:24

Happy New Year!! I have had limited 'tinternet access what with being in London and then losing internet access....

Was definitely lovely meeting the very glam, gorgeous and lovely Dolly in real life (ah, Dolly, wish I was all those things! I have lasted exactly 1 day on my shake diet! I have no will power and the stack of chocs still in the house is very distracting!). And just to echo the toast to everyone - real life and virtually - who has helped/posted wonderful (and truthful advice here). It has helped me tremendously. Echoing all of Dolly's thanks too....

Year did get off to a bumpy start - what with the phone call saga (have learnt my lesson there - wont be petty when it comes to ex and his time/contact with DS, but trust me, I will think long and hard when he makes his next outlandish request). He dropped DS off and gave me a handbag as a pressie from DS! Bizarre....he also asked me if I thought he was a good dad (irrespective of what I think of him as an individual). Didnt know what to say....he used to be a good dad and no doubt he and DS have lots of fun (heard nothing to the contrary to be fair), but when it comes to the meaty, tough stuff he just doesnt seem interested for whatever reason. E.g. picking schools. Told him to go and see schools and we can have a discussion after the whole 'keep him back a year' thing....and I can bet he hasnt and applications close next Friday....have decided that I cant let him continue to drain me anymore (dunno, just feel exhausted whenever I finish interacting with him/speaking with him...even a text/email seems like a huge effort). So, hoping that this will keep me on the straight and narrow with regard to keep moving on from him and the past.

Did have a funny conversation with him the other day. I had mentioned a friend of mine (my DS and her DS very good friends) who has moved in with her new bloke, after splitting with her ex husband in Feb 2011. They started dating in April (they knew each other through work for years - him up North, she was down her) moved in together in Oct after spending most weekends together (somewhere in the middle between their previous homes). Ex had the cheek to say to me that he reckoned she/their relationship was a bit fast, considering she has a DS! Even though her DS didnt meet new parter for a couple of months and er, ex seemed to have happily forgot that HE introduced our DS to his then partner after she had been in the country for what 4 or so days (she arrived on the Sat/Sun and he did introductions on the Weds - DS had never before seen this woman and she moved in with ex from the day she arrived here). Oh and by the time Ms San Fran did move here, she has spent a total of 30-odd days with ex, on which basis he deemed that everything was hunky dory to do his introductions.....Talk about one rule for some and another rule for others.......did make me chuckle though and I was quick to point out the similarities to his situation to which he mumbled 'err, yeah, I guess so'.....Must be nice living up on that pedestal smile!!

Anyway, hopefully that is the end of that and hope to have less rants for 2012. Hope everyone is doing well.

wellthatsdoneit Mon 09-Jan-12 13:04:01

Hello ladies - happy new year to one and all. We have survived so far, good news eh.

Glad Dee and Dolly got to meet up and pleased though not at all surprised to hear about the men slavering over you both.

Patience - whereabouts are you oop north? I'm in the north east - maybe we can get together for a little drinkie drinkie at some point?

Dee - your ex comes across as a very typical narc doesn't he - wants to be seen to be doing the right thing, but isn't really any substance behind it.

Ladies, I am very very low. Christmas was tough for many reasons - aftermath of court case, ex coming over to see the kids (for as little as he could get away with), a Big Birthday (me and the kids went away to the lake district which was the only way I could handle it), and now here I am - chewed up and spat out of 2011 and his country and suddenly now the dust is starting to settle I feel so lost. I have no job, no income - am currently living on premarital savings and I don't know where to start even looking for a job. I'd be laughed out of my old profession (solicitor) and I just feel stuck.

I don't think there could ever be another point in my life where I feel this bad. I have to thank the stars though that at least the kids are not going to be returned to his country. Just taking it minute by minute at the moment.

Hope you are all in a considerably better place than I am. Am looking forward to the day when the fates conspire to allow us an Aussie meet up where we can drink margaritas in the sun and wax lyrical about things that will no longer bother us.

Patienceobtainsallthings Mon 09-Jan-12 17:38:13

Ooooo Aussie meet up ...loving the sound of that Well.
Little bite size pieces is how I work my way through.Solicitor sounds fabulous ,can you revise your qualifications ?I am looking at a course at Uni just now but need to seriously research the finance .Im over the border .but managed to make it to Northumberland last yr ,smile

Dee34 Mon 09-Jan-12 19:25:28

Well - so sorry to read how you are feeling. You have been through such an awful lot with the court case, seasonal drama etc. I also know totally how you feel about feeling lost with no job/income/anchor. I think that Patience is right about bite sized pieces to deal with everything, taking it day by day (or even small chunks if needed). And ditto, about your previous profession. Can you update your qualifications? I did similar when looking for a PM job (not quite as interesting - IMHO - as the law!), though was able to get back into a similar role before I had to re-do my certs. Also just to add, that things will get better and your will one day emerge from all this pain. I know it is hard to see towards that point, but you will get there - you are already on that path towards a better and brighter future. This time last year if someone had said the same to me, I would have just shook my head at them, but it does, can and will pass, these current feelings. I think as several people have said at various points in the thread it is so important to recognise and own the feelings and work through them (have you tried counselling? Know it doesn't work for/suit all). Stay strong.

Not much to report here - ex is still as confusing as ever, which makes me even more convinced that there is no point trying to understand him. His latest thing now is that he wants to reduce his hours at work one day a week (only a couple of hours) to take DS to some activity/class - all fine and even good as he seems to be stepping up, but at the same time he is still not particularly bothered about what I would consider the more important things/harder aspects of parenting in particular schools etc (deadline is this week - yikes!) even though I had said to him he should go and see schools last week.....I guess I cant complain too much as if he does pull off his hours thing then at least that will mean that DS wont be stuck in nursery all day 5 days a week. Plus, am going to crack on with my business case to present to bosses regarding my hours.......I am and will always be upset about his lack of interest in schools as he wouldn't have been like this a few years ago, but feel like I can process that and move on from that discussion now. The cynic in me is half-expecting him to dig this whole schools thing up again at the last minute - cynic in that he will probably catch work colleagues/friends talking about similar....I wouldn't be surprised if this did actually happen! I think that I see ex more and more like an annoyance I have to deal with as opposed to him having the capacity to hurt me anymore (though saying that, am sure he will drop a bombshell sooner rather than later).

Ahhh, a meet-up in Oz would be lovely! Will keep dreaming of that one!

Dee34 Tue 10-Jan-12 00:08:12

Urgghh....Ex dropped off DS earlier today. Had to chat to him about something to do with DS and asked him to please not send any arsey emails. His response: smiling, 'I don't send arsey emails' followed by a wink. A wink. Man is clearly living up a tree and I have no idea what game he is playing at (though bets are on his rehabilitation into society with new wife and my pseudo-approval by deigning to be friends with him - look, Dee34 and I can have a joke and a laugh and a cheeky wink on the doorstep; look, Dee34 is using the handbag I got her from DS for her xmas pressie....All is done and forgiven.....blah, blah.

But, I seriously cant believe that he was joking on my doorstep and winking at me like we were old pals.....Was very good and didnt flare up (the old mode of reaction) mainly because I just thought 'sad, old man' but also, couldn't be bothered, so just asked him not to wink at me again and ended conversation.

cenicienta Tue 10-Jan-12 01:12:46

Well done Dee on the winking thing, you are SO moving on...

Don't let that guard down, detach, detach, detach!

Re schools, I know it probably feels like a huge responsibility to take on on your own, but you know DS better than anyone. Go ahead and make plans and decisions based on what you believe is best for DS. Anyone who matters will no doubt support you in whatever decision you take.

Ex could well be using this as a way to keep you dependent on him. By going ahead regardless you are sending the clear message that you would like him to be involved in these decisions but if he can't take the responsibility you are more than capable of handling these things yourself. If he questions you at a later date you can calmly and matter of factly point that out.

Hope this year is one of your best ever smile

Well. Your post made we wince with recognition. I could have posted this at any time during the first 12 months post split. In fact if you go back through this post, I probably did. I still have days when I feel like it but as cliched as it may sound the others are right. Take it piece by piece, step by step otherwise the picture is too big, too much to deal with and too very very scary. I still do. I have to go back to Oz and figure out my life as I gave myself 'permission' to come to terms with things during 2011. I still don't feel entirely ready and i'm definately not 'ok' but the big difference is I want to be and I know that I will be. I also recognise the lack of confidence in your abilities. If you were a solicitor once, studying, training, passing exams, working, there is absolutely no reason - assuming you want to - not to be wonderful at it again. It may be too early at the moment but perhaps begin to research what you would need to do to get your skills back up to speed - if in fact you do or if its a question of just jumping back in if and when you chose to? Its is daunting and hard and probably unthinkable at the moment. I coudn't find the door for the first year let alone contemplate the thought of getting up dressed, breakfasted, child cared and out to a proper job but even though I don't really want to, I know that I will be able to do it is just time and rebuilding your confidence and when you are in the awful dark place it is unimaginable that you will ever come out it but you will gradually, gradually, bit by bit. Also if you don't actually want to be a solicitor anymore, you obviously have a great brain to look at something else or apply your knowledge to some kind of other business that you would be more interested in doing. We say it over and over again but please be kind to yourself. You are doing so well, you have got yourself back home, looking after your beautiful children, going away for mini break with them for your birthday and keeping going. That is enough for now (assuming your savings can stretch a bit) and you are doing WELL.

Darling Dee, your ex does sound so hot, cold and generally a bit delusional about what his relationship with you will look like - certainly in the early years - but it sounds like you are doing AMAZINGLY well at detachment - well done you! Re schools, annoying, but honestly if he was all over it still talking about delaying a year that would be even more annoying possibly?

As for me, I'm so sad that I am leaving the UK next Tuesday (DS 4th birthday) but have a few days in HK before going home. Expecting a drop in morale in early days back but do feel a bit more positive about life after a wonderful Christening Day for DS on Sunday - one of those perfect days of winter sunshine about 70 friends and family, a sparky yet well behaved child and lots of laughter. I was stressed in the lead up to it as we had planned a UK christening with 2 children and 2 parents and thought I would be sad on the day and a bit bittersweet but in fact I was happy and proud and can honestly say that it was the first FULL DAY in a long while that I was properly happy. I also gave a little speech within which i gave a simple acknowledgement to ex's side of family and said I know grandparents, aunt, cousins and 'daddy' (didn't say his name) would have loved to have been here and are all very proud....

Ex is still overseas on his mystery holiday (judging from time of telephone calls) but I have not asked and he dodges questions from DS. He still owes me about £300 for home insurance and long standing bill but child support been paid. A few nasty emails about money type things but generally enjoying the peace and quiet of not seeing him to be honest. I'm still waking up every morning not believing it all still but I hope that this year that will occur less and less. I'm also - after a pep talk from German friend - going to try and do more positive thinking and framing of life. I'm a very 'non' self help book but I think I'm in danger of becoming a bit bittery, hard faced about things so whilst will never every forgive my ex for making me less than a fulltime mother and financially decimating me, I'm going to try and think of him and OW less and me and what I am going to do in life more. Get me. Will be buying Oprah magazine next......

Huge love
Dolly currently up here, soon to be down under ; (

-ve & +ve since post. had sent polite email to ex asking him to pay half of home insurance (legal obligation till sold) and half of bill he agreed to pay in mid-Dec as only received the December child support payment a few days ago, not these monies and please could he send.

He replied with horrid iphone badly typed, I paid December child support and have paid January child support early (he emailed this before but I have only received one payment - double checked for December)...then added 'never a thank you always wanting more'.

Now 2011 Dolly would have sent a ripper of an email saying you haven't paid and why should I have to be grateful for your shitty child support and few extra bills when you fucked off with another woman leaving your 2.5 old and me EIGHT weeks after a medical termination for a much wanted baby leaving you with enough money to swan off to the USA for a shagging month in NY and ski resorts so fuck off you fucker. Instead, taking my inspiration from Dee, I simply replied that the only payment I had received was the late December child support and as I was sending a polite reminder for legally required monies I did not think that this 'qualified as wanting more'. I then added that DS's christening had went well and to let me know if he wanted to see any photographs. Hah! distance Dolly prevails (for a while).......<preens>....

...Dee, I hope no more winking goes on (how fucking annoying for you, I could smack him on the back of the head for you), WELL I hope you are having a better day and Patience, I hope you found the rules to UNO....lets hope for a lottery win to faciliate an exotic meet up but honestly I'd go for a huge Thai villa half way with hot and cold running staff ; )

wellthatsdoneit Thu 12-Jan-12 13:15:32

Thanks for the support - it really does help.

Re the employment situation - it really does seem quite impossible. I worked in corporate which was an area dominated by misogynist types anyway, plus have been out of the loop for 7 years, it's an oversubscribed profession in a recession, plus I just could not do the hours I'd be expected to do and take care of two little children. And currently I'm living (rent free) in the wrong area. Oh, and I hated it too. Anything else?! Um, I will be focusing I think on what I can find around this area until all the financials etc are settled and whether that's something related to law or just clerical type work I don't know. I just don't know where to start to be honest.

Am feeling slightly more on an even keel - don't know whether that's because ex has now gone and I don't need so much contact with him, or i've been taking my ADs more regularly - probably both. Now I've got over the 'which country will the children live in' I think I've sort of lost my mojo a bit and need to get it back to sort out the divorce and finances. It's very possible that ex will try to shaft me/us on that. He will most certainly be having a child(ren) with someone else and then my two will be even further down the list of his priorities. What a knobjockey.

Dee - you certainly have the measure of your ex which is good to see. The wink was definitely an attempt to rehabilitate himself into polite society isn't it. I think you handled it perfectly. My ex also claims to want to be 'friends' but fails to grasp the concept of the perfectly logically question from me of: why on EARTH would I want to be friends with someone like you? You're a parasite.

Avoid avoid avoid. I think I may have said this here before but I think it's wise to employ tactics used by the Royal Navy in a warfare situation which is to expose oneself to enemy fire as little as possible. Bit difficult when you've got kids with them unfortunately. Yes, best to treat them as one would an annoying government department that one is forced to do-si-do through the bureaucracy with, tedious though it may be. Just another point on the Long Admin List of Life.

I've reread some of your back posts Dolly and our 'formers' do sound quite similar in terms of being very 'nice' before the break up and "I love you I love you I love you I couldn't bear to be without you" which is what makes the breakup and subsequent behaviour so breathtaking. I hope the post holiday blues wont' be too bad for you. Can you book a holiday or something as soon as you get back so you have something to look forward to?

I wonder as well, since you mentioned that you were (as a family) supposed to be moving back to the UK last year if that was a factor in triggering the break up? We were supposed to be moving to the UK (as a family) this year, and I do think that the closer it came the more my ex thought - wibble, I'm too scared to leave my mummy and all my friends and my revolting pickled herring (you might start guessing which country it is at this point although I'm too paranoid to state it explicitly in case ex ever does a search on me) - better dump Wellthats instead.

Sympathies on the snotty communication from your ex. It is always very distressing to be treated with contempt, and particularly so by someone who was supposed to be your confidante and most trusted ally. I'm an oversensitive old moo at the best of times and I'm sure ex knows that and plays on it. I wonder - do any of you look at your children sometimes and, well I don't really know how to say this, but think - how much of you is me, and how much of you is him. And the bit that's him - how am I going to handle that? The shitty bit of him that is (if it's there at all), and how much do I really know you? My ds is starting to look more and more like The Former everyday and they both have his hands and it freaks me out a little bit - the constant reminder of someone who has all but destroyed you and not given a fig about it.

Patienceobtainsallthings Thu 12-Jan-12 14:05:14

Just remember they are their own selves,their own unique little beings and have a different mother .They will have a different childhood and develop into their own people with their own experience.

Dee34 Thu 12-Jan-12 17:37:56

Lordy – as expected, ex is now stepping up as dad of the year and willing to interrupt his important schedule as an important busy man to deign to go and see one of the short-listed schools for DS. Only after I said I was going to visit a final one earlier in the week as a last minute decision, invited him along calling him as soon as the school confirmed as it was very last minute and he couldn’t make it (so he responsed by accusing me of performing a fait accompli on him time-wise and not giving him enough notice! I see it now – it really is all about him). I do wonder if I He is going tomorrow at 2pm…..deadline for applications is tomorrow and I have already submitted DS’. I think he thinks that we will be having some big discussion (nope) which is odd as he will have only seen one school. But, as advised, just went with my own feeling and assessments (and it seems a good job I did too!).

Anyway, other bit of good news – he is finally moving!!!By the looks of it, to the leafy side of town (nearer the train station!) – still in the same town as he wants to stay close for DS…..which also means (bizarrely) that I am not ‘allowed’ to move away. He has not come out and said this, but, I sent him a list of the final schools today that I had visited (I know, I should leave well alone, but want my conscious clear that he cant say in x years time, ‘you never told me this’ or ‘you withheld x info from me’ despite his lame response on this subject) and one was not in the immediate area to which he replied that he found it worrying and unsettling that I would want to move away and so take DS away from him…..again, bonkers and totally controlling. He seems to have merrily forgotten that he has had plenty of fair access to DS since day 1 and despite having no family or a permanent house now, I am still here (cracking friends, good job and a good community environment for DS though are what keep me here). So began some mis-construed questioning and insinuations that he should be kept fully aware of my plans for DS’ sake (ummm, like he kept me fully aware of his plans 12months ago for DS’ sake?!). Wont point-score, and told him firmly to perhaps mind his own and I would of course keep him informed of any decisions, but my planning and thoughts on certain subjects were nothing to do with him…..he seems to disagree. Oh dear.

So, am feeling okay about the house I think – had a twinge earlier on, as know the houses in that side of town are large and grand affairs (am imagining shutters on the window, window seats etc –yes, am torturing myself!) and would be a dream home for me (close to town centre – being a London girl etc). It was ex who wanted to move to where our old house was so we could get more house for our money. It was his dream house etc. So feel a bit like ‘gah’! Also, wondering how DS will feel, will he suddenly love being at Daddy’s new house more than our house (knowing ex, can expect him to be throwing money at anything in the house that is connected to DS, so will kit out his room, get stuff for the garden etc….. This will all be good for DS – i.e. homely environment with things he will enjoy playing with, but, hmmm, feel a bit flat). Will self-medicate and buy a house-interiors mag to preen over tonight!

*PS: Just written this on work email waiting for home-time, so only just seen updates. Will post back properly tonight!

Dee34 Thu 12-Jan-12 23:04:41

Well - ah, I see about the job situation. I second all of Dolly's excellent advice. Most definitely take your time as much as you can (finance and head-space wise). Know totally how you feel as it is a bit of a minefield and I remember feeling like I was stuck at some junction and no idea on which way to turn. You will get there. Regarding where to start, are there any organisations in your area that can offer help or advice? I know that there are some government funded companies that do this in my area as I went through them for some CV advice etc (I had pretty much put all ideas of a paid role on the back-burner when I left my old job as was aiming to do the self-employed thing, so CV was crazily out of date and I had spent the previous 10 years moving around going for internal promotions and job changes, so again, CV not really 'ready' for the external market. Think this can be a bit hit and miss though and definitely not something to do until you are ready). You've probably thought of all this though, so maybe best thing now is to give yourself some space/time to breathe - even if it's only for a short time.

Very glad to hear that you are feeling a bit better today - think the top advice I had on here from many sources was to take each day at a time. And there will be days of ups and downs to work through. Honestly, 6/7 months ago, I would have sworn blind that I would forever be thinking about ex and his OW/wife etc 24/7, but I don't. Has taken some time and working through things (on here, with real life friends, counselling, reading, all sorts). And I sincerely hope that one day - if they are still together - I can go up to ex's wife and say 'thank you very much for giving me my freedom and allowing me to be rid of ex which has enabled me to follow my true path and be happier than I ever thought possible'. That's not to piss all over the relationship I/we had or where I would have liked it to have gone - in fact, was certain it was going in terms of more children, doing more things together, growing old together. But, I can accept now that in my case, it wasn't meant to be and ex is not someone who I would ever want to be with, so he is most definitely right in his assertion that he is not for me!

Interesting theory regarding the move back to the UK for both you and Dolly.....could well be the case.....

Oh and goes without saying that he knows how to hurt you and may well be doing this (my ex does it every day I have contact with him). As you have said, avoid and detach. Agree with Patience about seeing the efforts YOUR parenting will instil in your children - it's something I keep reminding myself daily....

Love the tips from the Royal Navy tactics. Definitely something to remember next time he wheedle his way in somehow (he has now taken to echoing DS' pleas for him - ex that is - to come into our house to play when he drops him off. Which is slightly annoying as I then look like the wicked witch of the east - or is it west? - by saying no).

Dolly - so glad to hear that the Christening went well! And well done on the measured comeback to your ex! I think it's the best way, as as soon as they see any emotional reaction from you/us, it gives them a chink in the armour to chip away at. I am manically re-building my armour after a few emotional outbursts over last few months - we'll get there!

You had my chuckling at the Oprah mags....I have a stack of unopened ones (I had a subscription) here in the living room. Hmmm....maybe I should actually open, read them and 'live' the advice that is given out each month... could be another challenge for 2012! On a serious note - I think positive thinking is great, though need to keep remember to practice it!

Cenicienta - agree on the schools front and in the end, went with my own decision, so feeling happy and settled about that. I gave him plenty of opportunities and time to do his own thing, invited him to my appointments and in the end he can only manage 1 visit on the closing date for applications and I wont be surprised if he just doesn't bother going full-stop. Says it all really. And thanks for the lovely words and support - yes, hope this year is a good one, though based on last year, it can hopefully only get better smile

Re my ex - yes, agree, think that he is aiming for his rehabilitation back into society/possible joint friendships that we had. After all he is a pillar of respectability now that he is married, is moving house and carving out his dream step-family set-up. As Well says (and others before her), am not interested in the slightest in being friends. I have plenty of friends that I struggle to see and keep up contact with as it is, never mind that mine and ex's understanding of what a friendship is and how friends treat each other is slightly askew...

After an evening to consider, I am actually really quite glad that he has now moved away (or will be doing very soon). I wont ever have a chance to see them in my immediate area unless ex was going to work or coming to see/collect DS. I feel like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders.

PS: please excuse any typo's am knackered and off to bed....

Hello All

Posting and dashing as just up from London and off out tonight with old friends...but on the train up reading mystery type novel (The Swan Thieves, Elizabeth Kostova) I read the following paragraph and thought of all you lovely women....and then seeing Dee's coments had to post. In the novel the narrator is a pyschiatrist visiting the ex-wife of one of his patients to get a back story and observes:

"I had seen so many women emotionally knocked off their feet by divorce. There were a few who didn't recover, in the sense that they sank into permanent chronic bitterness or depression, especially if the divorce became linked to some previous trauama or to an underlying condition. But most women were remarkably strong, I'd always thought; those who healed themselves were full of a deeper life afterward. Intelligent Kate, with the light from the windows catching her smooth hair, would go on to something or someone better and be content, and wise

May we all be in the last category.

WELL darling. I also want to say - without being patronising - that you are in the middle of the maelstrom and things that may seem out of your reach/ability won't be when the seas return to normal and you emerge forever changed but stronger. But it sounds like you didn't much like your job so perhaps you could use this time to think about what you may like to do that could realistically fit in with your children?? Or at least eliminate things? Or simply just be for a bit....

anyway proper post soon xxxxx

PS. Darling Dee. Oprah Sue says put the energy you put into thinking about ex new house into thinking about your next house or adding a few personal touches to your current one. Dolly Sue says I would have nosed in exactly the same way ; )

PPS. My lawyer said the same about moving to the UK ; (

springydaffs Sat 14-Jan-12 00:58:57

Dee - ime ex will make a fuss no matter what you do (in this instance re schools). You gave him good warning but he didn't do anything about it. If you must respond to him not acting on the info you provided you could send him an email saying "choosing school tomorrow". But iiwy I wouldn't even send that. Short leash. Don't bother to dance to his tune albeit in a more subtle way re your fear that you will be accused of this or that if you don't do this or that. You will be accused anyway on some trumped-up charge so you may as well do as little as possible. He's mad, remember.

I hope the winky eye gets gangrenous and drops off ( I can hope that because I don't have to detach detach detach) (I was going to put a wink there but thought maybe not..).

Love to all and heartfelt wishes for a prosperous 2012 in every sense: emotionally, practically, financially, spiritually <3

springydaffs Sat 14-Jan-12 01:06:09

Sorry about the swish house btw. Personally, I hope it rots from under him - if it's an old house there's a good chance of all sorts of endless problems and that would be a shame.

cenicienta Sat 14-Jan-12 14:48:17

Hi Dee, please don't worry about the house.

Because of our work we live in a country / region that is considered seriously "under developed" by UK standards. Our house is "luxurious" because we have cold running water (some of the time) and a few light bulbs and electricity /internet (some of the time as well). The only toys we can buy here are cheap, very badly made and usually unsafe.

Our work often requires us to travel to very remote areas (with our 2 dcs under 5) where there is no water other than river / rain water, no electricity, no toys etc, but you know what, the dcs absolutely love these times and don't mind at all that the places we stay have mud floors and rain coming in through the thatched roof. They spend their time splashing around in the mud with the local kids who think metal bottle tops are the most exciting toys ever.

When we ask our DD (aged 4) what the difference is between our house and the houses we visit, the only difference she can think of is that we have flowers outside our house and they don't! Nothing about us having glass windows, a proper roof, a flush toilet, mattresses on the beds etc!

What I'm trying to say is that for children the beautiful house / toys / "things" aren't as important as warm and loving relationships, having fun and adventures, and just generally feeling secure and loved and cherished by the people most important to them.

By the way, I know this all sounds very appealing... if you ever fancy a holiday.. grin

Dee34 Sun 15-Jan-12 10:47:26

Springy - thanks for the advice. Pretty much did the same. Applied on Thursday - he said he was going to see a school on Friday. Have no idea if he did or not as he has not mentioned anything and I cant be bothered to ask him. Yes, see your point, I guess I am dancing to his tune a bit and having to defend myself (referring him to my emails from last year where I spent ages outlining the different schools, pros and cons and visits etc - all for nothing as he was still asking me last week, what the names of the schools were!). That is the exact measure of him, he cant be bothered or forgets and I am the one who gets blamed, so back to minimal interaction. I'll keep my records and make notes and move on.....

Re house - haha! Ex has deepish pockets, so no doubt no repair is beyond him. But going to focus my energy on my own house hunt now. Ideally somewhere that DS and I can call home and settle into, but which I could rent out if the need should arise. Rent on current place is killing me (in a having to fork out that amount each month that I will never see again way and landlord was very funny about putting anything on the walls - a criteria that only came to light after we had moved in. I am not even allowed to put a nail up).

Cenicienta - thank you - that is a truly lovely and a timely reminder that home is where the heart is and one I need to remember a lot over next few weeks I think. My DS would love to be splashing out in the mud smile and some of our best times have been where we have been out for a random walk with no destination and just taking in the views, objects and stumbling across something fun for DS to do.

Once again, I am feeling utterly disappointed in ex (when will I ever learn!). I always seem to think that when it comes to DS, he will pick himself up and get his arse into gear, but instead, he just remains his lazy old, self-absorbed, selfish self (which is good - at least it means that he hasn't had a total transplant and there are echos of the bad side of him that I remember - hopefully new wife will get this when the honeymoon period is over with). I am in the process of seriously doing potty training with DS (after several aborted attempts in the past due to various reasons, such as dealing with all this crap in the early days, moving house, me starting work full-time, getting rid of his dummy first and DS just not being ready). Anyway, he seems very ready now, so had earmarked this weekend to start....had also mentioned this to ex, who said, yes, he would be on board with this, supportive etc. Fine. I tell him the basics (get more than one potty, toilet seat, have plenty of pants etc etc). On Thursday, I emailed him the books that I am using as he agreed to get the same and read so that we are on the same page. Again, fine and he thanks me. I crack on with potty training from yesterday. Today, he turns up for DS - I give him a basic run down of how yesterday went then ask him has he got the potties? He has just one - he didnt have time to go out and get another (I emailed him a couple of weeks ago about having an extra potty or two). But, am thinking, okay, fine, at least he has one, so not too much of an issue. I then ask, you have the book, yes? Err, no. He has not had the time to go out and buy it (but, hey, its in his Amazon cart!). I asked him why he didn't go and buy it yesterday, bearing in mind he knew he would have DS today. His response - he was too busy packing. Didn't I realise that they are moving next Friday, so they spent ALL DAY PACKING (he emphasised this as if I should feel empathy for him/them!). Errr, surely potty training on Sunday comes before moving house next Friday? He then said that he wouldn't have had time to read the book anyway (the book is as thin as a magazine and can be read in an hour skim reading for the important stuff), though funnily enough they had time to go out for a rewarding dinner yesterday evening after all their packing. I was, by this time, a bit cheesed off as he had given me the full lip-service and then done his usual, I got a bit snippy and he then ended the conversation saying that actually, I should have bought two copies of the book, one for me and one for him (he didn't ask me to and part of me is thinking, should I though? I am not his unpaid skivvy...). He also told me that potty training isn't that hard and he doesn't know what a book would tell him that he cant pick up himself (so excuse mode basically - he didn't give me all this when we were discussing the approach via email). Now, I know that having a book is not essential to potty-training, but I was keen for us to both follow the same approach at least in the early days and ex, although very good at playing with DS, isn't much good at anything else to do with other parenting issues (doesn't see the harm in giving DS the same meal every weekend he is at his his house, is happy to take DS out for day-trips to the zoo several weeks in a row as he asked to go, will buy DS whatever he wants when they are out (including toys for much older kids) etc etc). Hence why I thought by reining him with a book it would make the process a lot easier. So, a bit of a blah start to the day, but boy, did it make me remember ex for his laziness. Though silently fuming that he can bend over backwards for new wife and jump through hoops for her and yet just brushes off everything else. I feel like I still need to mother him and cajole him along (which makes me look even more like a nagging harpy whilst new wife is the soothing calm for him).

I no longer hurt for me - more that I am utterly frustrated that he just cant seem to grasp the important things in his two 'lives'. I can bet, he wont forget to book a restaurant to take new wife out for a meal after she has had a hard week of slogging into London, but he cant remember to call up a couple of schools for his DS? Ditto, I can imagine (or rather, remember) all the dashing and darting around that goes on when it comes to moving - popping out to get more boxes, more bubble wrap, grab a takeaway lunch as you are too pooped to fix something and yet, he couldn't be bothered to factor in 30mins-1 hour to pop into the nearest bookshop and get a book on potty training. It just blows me away - and yes, makes me mad that he can be so out of tune with everything else aside from what is going on in his own little bubble kingdom.

Anyway, will see how things go I guess....but from now on, I will not expect anything from ex in regard to DS (bar being able to play with him when he needs to).

Dee34 Sun 15-Jan-12 10:59:39

By the way, should add, ex was in no way apologetic as he started out with the 'one potty, no book' line. He was defensive from the get-go, which of course riled me up.....

And, he is moving next Friday and yet is asking to have DS next Saturday (as opposed to Sunday)?! How would that work with potty training (bearing in mind, DS will be at nursery from M-F, so next time for either me or ex to sustained training at home will be next Sat?! Surely he wont have time to be following a pre-schooler around a house that he would have moved into the day before? Or will DS just adapt?). The mean part of me is thinking, 'yep, have DS on Sat' and let them see how they get on (isn't moving stressful as it is without a pre-schooler who is just starting potty training? Dont think I would do it if I was moving - ex only told me about his new house last Thursday and I had already spent the last week or so prepping DS about getting rid of nappies etc), the practical, mummy side of me is thinking 'well, it would be better for DS to be in at least one familiar environment to continue the process', but ex will be an arse on this - can guarantee it......

mummytime Sun 15-Jan-12 11:09:27

Just leave him to get one with doing it his way. I'd limit it to making sure when your DS is dry at day, and when he is dry at night, and reminding him he needs more changes of clothes for DS. Oh and any special words you use.
Potty training goes well when the child is ready, and I think needs to respond to the child.
No you can't expect him to do anything your way. You need to hold fire until it big issues such as letting him paly computer games well outside the age range etc.

springydaffs Sun 15-Jan-12 11:15:20

Well, some of us (though not all, obviously) could be hoping that his pad is strewn with copious poo and wee presents in the most awkward places because there is no great shakes to potty training after all. What with the fourteen children he has personally guided through this stage.

You're not still expecting him to be human are you Dee? I know it takes a while to get your head round it all but eg he has also proved beyond reasonable doubt that he is not up for co-parenting. He is with his mouth but that's as far as it goes. Looks good, see (nothing underneath) - plus it certainly looks like a handy and rich seam he is prepared to beat you with, reasonably or unreasonably. < latter

Have you looked at a list of (definitions of) personality disorders? Whereas I am not usually keen on cod-diagnoses, it may help in this instance to view him in a 2-dimensional way, being as the humanity element is curiously missing.

springydaffs Sun 15-Jan-12 11:20:05

Bets on that he will sabotage the potty-training. It is not feasible that ds will be able to make any headway in a house the day after a house move.

Dee34 Sun 15-Jan-12 11:51:21

Thanks - think you are both right! I will just let this go now as agree, he will not do anything my way (though really, it was a shared way in the first instance. I suggested some books, asked if he had any views on reading/ways to do things to which he said no, he would just do the same as me! Think that is where my frustration lies, if he wasn't bothered, he could have just said, rather than make the right murmurings to keep me quiet).

As they went away, I did day that he could email me if he had any queries, but just thinking now, I probably should have said nothing (bearing in mind Springy's comments about a short leash). I guess I will do what I can do here and he can do what he can/wants to do at his place. My main worry was that I was keen to have some sort of consistency between the houses as have noticed when other things aren't consistent that DS can play up (e.g. he was always used to me just putting him down to bed and leaving him to fall asleep, whereas ex got into the habit of lying down with him on his bedroom floor, now DS wants the same at my house. Frustrating as DS always been a poor sleeper, and had to do some serious sleep training with him to get him to the stage he was at). But, yep, DS seems ready, so hopefully he can cope with the differences - if any - between the houses. Nevertheless, a good learning point for the day I guess! So, will let them get on with it today and he can have DS next Saturday.

Springy - yes, was stupid enough to think that he would 'be different' this time and man up on this (why so, after the school debacle of just last week, I dont know. Actually, I do know - because he finally came giving me a sob story about how he agreed he had messed up with DS' school choice, but he was oh so busy, but it was all okay, as he trusted me to make the right choice anyway..). Hopefully this will be the last kick in the teeth and I will learn not to sweat the small stuff with him and just get on with it and then he can come and have a conversation as and when. Will be liberating as well.

Mummytime - not quite computer games, but have had to have a chat with him in the past about letting DS watch certain cartoons/animation that are aimed for older children. Again, no clue if he actually followed through with it or just did his own thing.....I guess I should just give up.

cenicienta Sun 15-Jan-12 12:32:10

Dee I can feel your frustration re the potty training. To anyone who doesn't have dcs this could seem like making a mountain out of a molehill, but when you're in the middle of it it's a different story isn't it. I know this would really wind me up as well.

I wonder if you could just focus on being consistent in your home, making sure that you and the nursery are doing the same thing. I'm not really an expert on potty training but would guess that the outcome of this approach might be that DS becomes dry at least whilst with you / at nursery.

It might take him a bit longer whilst with ex if ex isn't being so consistent, but when he returns home where everything is consistent, he should revert back quite quickly.

The great thing is that DS will get there. If ex has to do a bit of poop cleaning on the way, then grin

springydaffs Sun 15-Jan-12 12:45:58

that is one of the most painful elements of relating to people like this re the pain of hope; that they will start being human [again?], that the nightmare will be over. You can and do accept the split - though that takes a while to accept the rank injustice of it, especially in the working out - but the inhumanity is so hard to accept.

Patienceobtainsallthings Sun 15-Jan-12 20:10:26

Dee my 2 were trained at 2 &1/2 ,didnt read anybooks just got told main thing is keep them in pants no daytime nappies,too confusing,all kids will have the odd accident ,all helps to learn about going to the toilet/potty but just chill .Biggest gift u can give ds is being relaxed about it all dont worry about XP,he is an arsehole .Ds will cope smile.
Watched Great Expectations the other night and thought WOW we are all doing so well compared to Miss Haversham.......if ever there was a lady needing to move on from a man that conned her then dumped her.Consumed with anger,bitterness and revenge if i have a bad day now i think i will refer to myself as doing,"a Haversham"

McNaughty Sun 15-Jan-12 20:57:01

Hi Dee smile

My God, your ex is certainly no 'brain of Britain' is he. He's following the tried and tested script of the loser... " I might have left my only child and betrayed the woman I loved for a bit of stuff I met in a bar, but hey ho, don't want the big dream sequence to end, so I kept the hype going and now have a shiny new life but, of course, on paper I am a great Dad, a great guy, super sucessful and no one can tell me what to do... I'm always right". This is a guy with more money in his pockets than he had ever dreamt of and the delusion that this makes him infalible and irresistible to women.

When he says he wants to be involved, its just lip service. He wants to make it look as though he's part of it all, but he's not. Please don't wait around for him to make decisions. The only ones he'll make are the ones which turn your life upside down. You don't need to take his wishes into consideration. Inform him when you need to, give him updates when it suits you, but when he doesn't respond, IGNORE HIM. He's damned lucky that you have not moved to be nearer your family. Then he would be stuck with his new life without someone nearby to throw blame towards.

I actually think that you have moved on so much from the beginning of all this. Remember that he is ahead of you with his thinking and planning. He had a head start as he was lying to you for so long and he cut deeply into your soul. Its no wonder that it has taken you time to recover from his bombshell and get your bearings again. And you are!!

Please try not to worry about things like potty training, it will come in its own time and just go ahead and do it your own way. If he suddenly thinks he is a parenting guru, the fine, but I don't believe for a moment that all the big houses, toys, money etc will ever make him a good father. Remember that a good father treats the mother with respect. Your Ex probably can't even spell the word, never mind act with it. If he really cared for your son - his wellbeing and his future, he wouldn't treat you so badly. Please don't feel you ever have to explain to this man. He's just not worth it.

And to echo what the others are saying here. I have three DCs. Each of them has potty trained in their own time and in their own way. There is no RIGHT way of doing it. Just relax and let your DS lead the way in his own time. That way it will be much faster. If your Ex sees that you are tense about any part of your DS's upbringing (school, potty training etc) he may use it as a way of getting at you. String you along saying he will help, then undermine you at every opportunity. Don't be caught out again. If he wants to be part of his child's life, then he'll have to work at it more than he is at the moment.

Also, if you still had been together, do you think that he would have any more of an active role than he does at the moment. He may have avoided being involved so that he could load you up with the responsibility, then shout at you when it didn't go to plan???

For now, keep planning your own move, your own life. Please don't let ex into your home at all. All of these little moves are designed to hurt you. To make you look unreasonable. Be one step ahead of him. Even if your behaviour enrages him. So what? Let him huff and puff. Remember that if he leaves you in a rage, he'll go home like that. Your own home should be a cocoon for you and your DS, a place that he always wants to

McNaughty Sun 15-Jan-12 21:00:08

Oops! ...A place that he always wants to be, and a zone which is free from your Ex and his ego.

springydaffs Mon 16-Jan-12 10:26:33

[APPLAUDS McNaughty]

Going back to the 'hope' theme. Closing your heart to hope with him doesn't mean you will be incapable of 'hoping' (re trusting) in future relationships (not just romantic relationships but all relationships). He is a bad lot. Maybe he always was (? who knows?) but it can be a major strike to confidence, that thinking that how could I ever have been taken in by someone like this, he's a total sham. It's a very short step to believing "there must be something wrong with me (it's my fault! I should've known!)". That is classic post-abuse thinking which is, sadly, prevelant - all victims of abuse have to go through this stage.

It's not you who is duff. You can and do love, you know how to be fair, which is why you are struggling to accept that he isn't being 'fair' and is pursuing an agenda that isn't fair; you may even be over-egging the 'fairness' re if I'm fair, he will be fair. He has no intention of being fair, it isn't anywhere on his agenda, despite the copious lip service he pays to it. By advertising your 'fair' agenda, he also gets some rich clues of how to play the game with you. Stop 'relating' to him - better still, as far as is humanly possible, get out of his orbit altogether. I am very sceptible of the blanket 'co-parenting' that is currently slavishly adhered to, come what may - it is not always appropriate imo.

mummytime Mon 16-Jan-12 14:28:37

I have to say I feel my first moment of sympathy for your Ex's new wife, fancy moving house and having the just beginning to potty train son of your new husband come to visit? Especially when neither of you have done this before. It sounds like an episode of a bad sitcom.

It really does all seem to be about what your Ex wants, not you, not your ds, and not even his new wife (but does she realise that yet?).

McNaughty Mon 16-Jan-12 16:15:37

I so agree with Springy and Mummytime* and their advice. Its worth more than your ex's salary ten times over.

I had similar thoughts about the day to day resllity of a new marriage and the added stresses of a part-time toddler. Basically any relationship takes loads and loads of time to reach a point where it is good. Ok, in the beginning there's the obvious lust and all that goes with it but that soon gets overtaken with the real world. For example:

Money/finances, work, families/inlaws, tiredness, children, hobbies, TV preferences etc etc... add in anything else that is part of your life. Just making that lot tick over is a HUGE task and I would say that I am still working on a lot of these issues... for many years! smile

So your ex, Mr Corporate Man, is coping with all of that, plus a house move and doing it with a woman he barely knows! And here's luck to him.

What he's not telling you when he's seeing you, is just how stressful all of that will be. And there you are, the woman he knows so well, to let out all his frustrations on. He has to convince himself that he can control you as he needs you there to take all his crap. He'll be well behaved with his newly minted wife. So keep batting that crap back to where is came from and let him know that you are teflon coated. Take Springy's advice and don't feel the need to be fair. He's already shafted you - which bit of that was fair?

Stick in there Dee.

McNaughty Mon 16-Jan-12 16:16:04

* reality*

springydaffs Mon 16-Jan-12 18:00:42

I must say I have no sympathy for the new wife at all, not a shade.

Dee34 Mon 16-Jan-12 22:25:36

Thanks for the top advice. Have stepped back from the potty and letting DS get on with it (and he is doing well! Though have probably jinxed myself now!). Ditto for ex - he can (and will) do as he likes.

And so to yet another day of, out of the blue, ex asks (via email) if he can bring a hard drive round one day so he can get copies of our old photos (his exact words) from the old PC. Now old PC is the one we had before DS, so only photos on there would be anything uploaded up to around Spring 2008 when we I got new laptop. Isn't this just a bit weird? Why, in the week that he is moving into a new marital home with new wife, sealing the deal on their future and shared appreciation, blah, blah, why, is he asking me for our old photos? I doubt he will be wanting to put any photos up on his new walls (though there are some nice scenery shots from the various holidays we went on, back when we were miserable and living a lie of course wink)....I replied that he would of course be welcome to any photos of himself and said scenery shots, but he wouldn't be getting any of me/us together (gives me the creeps actually to think about deliberately giving him old photos 12 months AFTER he left, and not even 2 months after getting married. Would be a different case if he had taken photos with him when he left. Also, he pretty much wrote off the previous 11 years as one of regret, so again, why would he want photos?). I also said that I have no plans to get the photos over to him any time soon as PC is packed away. Very weird, and I suspect something is afoot, so will steel myself a bit.

Mummytime - I am also 'what?' about him really insisting he have DS next Sat, bearing in mind he knows that he is moving the previous day. But, knowing ex, there is an agenda there somewhere. Maybe he is doing it to prove to me/the world, that he can be very hands on and capable and look, new wife is so devoted to him and DS that she is willing to pitch in too. Maybe. Agree, don't think he has thought about this from DS' perspective i.e. his dad and his new wife are moving house (this will now be 4th house that DS has to adjust to including old family home, in last 12 months), DS will have to get used to new surroundings, new house, new bedroom, and remember to do his wees and poos in a (single) potty. Sounds like fun for all and ranks up there with ex's other great ideas including asking to take DS away for a week with then OW as soon as she arrived here, him introducing her to DS after she had been in the country for 3 days (taking their time together up to then to 30-something days)....but hey ho, as suggested, will just make sure DS has consistency back here, feels secure etc.

Ah sympathy for new wife.....I feel sad for her (not too much to weigh on my mind or cause me a moments worry) as she is obviously deluded in love. She has moved here for someone she barely knows, went on his (and his alone, no friends or family to back-up the story) tale of woes of the last 11 years and the terrible, hard life he had been subjected, is happy to play second fiddle to someone else's child, happy to live in our town and commute to London every day whilst ex has a commute from his bed to his home office (though he gallantly drives her to the station) and willing to never, ever go back to the US even after/if they have kids as ex has explained to her and they have discussed at length and agreed that ex will not be prepared to leave DS at any cost. Oh and on top of that, she must never get PND (and if she does, it had better not last for more than 3 months), she must never gain a few persistent pounds after pregnancy etc etc. Crazy in love or a bit desperate (and she could probably do better if she kept her eyes open a bit on her travels into London).

cenicenta/patience - thanks. Agree, will just be consistent at home and inform nursery and 'share' high level stuff with ex should he ask.

springy - yes, am/was ever hopeful that ex would suddenly get a light bulb moment and walk out of his fog and start manning up for the harder parenting aspects for DS. I think actions of last few weeks has put paid to that. I agree, i need to stop relating to him and being fair to a fault. I think my frustrations with his lack of input on schools etc lead to more 'contact' via email as I vented a bit. Time to rein it back in as agree, I am just setting myself up for a fall and also exposing myself to him. From now on, I will do simple and courteous informing, but wont go running around after him or going on the defensive. It's a constant learning process!

McNaughty - agree with what you have written, but it is hard to believe that in myself when ex is parading around grinning from eye to eye or trying to buddy up to me like we are great old friends. Though I do have reference points, like when we moved into new house and first night here, he sends me an email telling me that he is feeling down about the situation, wishes he could turn back time (all from the comfort of his living room in house he was in with Ms San Fran*. Honestly, I could have caused a lot of trouble between them with the emails and stuff he has sent, but I dont want him back, so cant be bothered). True, he wont be telling new wife any of this and instead unloads on me. I will certainly remember the point to not worry about his decisions and to ignore him.

Re potty training, if we had still been together, I would have done everything (as per everything else in family life). He would not have actively helped, but would have had an interest. Just like with every aspect of DS life (he had never gone to a shop/online and bought DS any toys/books/clothes/present. He used to give me his share of money toward presents when I remembered to ask - and I only asked as I wasn't working, so living off savings - but that was it. Oh he did enjoy playing with said toys and reading books to DS, so that was something!

*Ohhh, just had a wicked thought/realisation - he probably sent that on the sly (along with all his other crappy emails/texts) behind her back. Hah!

PS: Sorry, another War and Peace epic post! Will aim for brevity next time!

Dee34 Mon 16-Jan-12 22:58:22

Oh and not to worry - all of the stuff above is based on historic conversations of old (bar today and photo business). I have no idea what ex and new wife talk about now, or even if they are still sticking to their 'never leave DS' line (ex told me this way back when in the early days). No pumping for information going on - hardline 'not interested' tact is still in force smile.

springydaffs Mon 16-Jan-12 23:09:44

do you speak to him/have contact every day ? It sounds like it! It should be every 3 months so often.

the email to you on the day you moved was to mess with your head, tis all sad

like this

Keep up the War and Peace epics! great writing

Xales Mon 16-Jan-12 23:10:30

Hi Dee

He is still keeping you wrong footed isn't he sad Selfish selfish little man. Just keep doing what you are doing. Email we need to sort X, Y or Z for DS and then make your own decision and don't wait for one from him. If he deigns to reply in a timely manner he can have some input. If he can't be fucked to go visit a school until after the deadline he gets no say.

Keep an email/paper trail so that you can use it as a defense if ever needed in the future.

Remember he can bring a hard disk around and leave it with you to put what you deem acceptable on to it. He doesn't get to come into your house, sit down at your pc, and browse through your pc while downloading whatever he deems appropriate!

Make sure you don't accidentally add any messages/emails that he has sent to you onto that hard disk grin

Keep going, remeber 2012 is a new year, no more caring about the crap you wouldn't even walk on.

mummytime Tue 17-Jan-12 12:32:22

I really think you are so lucky to have got away from him, he wasn't what you thought, and is someone else's problem now.
I'd just try to work on your teflon coat, none of his rubbish should stick to you. As the primary influence on your DS's life you have a good chance to influence him for the best.
I'd also suggest you listen to Xales, you don't want him in your nice new home.

wellthatsdoneit Tue 17-Jan-12 13:37:11

Meh. I don't feel too sorry for the new wife. I sometimes almost feel sorry for my ex's new girlfriend but then think "What kind of a woman gets involved with a married father of two tiny children?". Although she didn't make and break the marriage vows, she is certainly complicit in breaking up a family unit.

Unless she's unfathomably thick to the extent that she can't chew gum and walk in a straight line at the same time, she's hoist by her own petard. And what's that saying? When the husband marries the mistress a vacancy is created?

I think you are wise to leave off the potty training for the moment Dee. Too much for you DS to cope with at the moment and I don't think it's worth it. My DS didn't train until his 3rd birthday and even then I had to spend a week indoors with him (I followed the Cod bootcamp method, which is on the mumsnet resources somewhere).

Dee34 Tue 17-Jan-12 23:41:23

Springy - you gave me food for thought.....I have looked back over interaction with ex and indeed it is pretty much back up at the peak of almost every day contact! Starting pretty much around that Christmas period. Sometimes multiple emails a day (e.g. school stuff of late). Yikes. Scary how that can creep up on a person (I would have sworn blind that I was limiting contact, but I guess - as occurred yesterday - by responding to his random emails, I am enabling the engagement and so begins the next sorry round of email dodging and war of words). So.......I will re-pledge to myself (and my sanity) to keep contact with him to the bare minimum. I will try hard to lose the mind state where I think I owe him one or the favour of x, y or z which would cause me to get back into that regular contact mode. Really, as big stuff like schools and potty training have/are being addressed, it just leaves the small daily stuff to plough through for the next few months and I don't need daily contact for that. Another day - another (well learned) lesson!

Xales - thanks hugely! Yep, he wont ever be coming into my house (this one or next one, or two or three etc). Nor will I be rushing to play happy families with him away from the house as don't trust myself not to be snipey, which would so not be a pleasant experience for DS. And I think I have learnt the hard way about opening the door for him with the school thing. If he cant be bothered, then so be it. I do just need to get on with it and leave him to whatever he is doing. Really cant be bothered about the whole photo thing and I am still thinking (but not asking - don't want to go down any dodgy paths) 'err, why?', so in no rush to upload any photos for him (he also suggested that he would bring round a harddrive and I could do the uploading for him - ah, so I could have kept sthum in response to his email and just uploaded the photos I wanted him to have!). Plus, PC is in the garage in some random box and as much as ex would like to think I have nothing better to do with my time that do his bidding as he wants and when he wants, the thought of wading through those boxes is not very appealing tbh.

Mummytime - think you are right and I need to dust down my teflon coat as the guard has been stripped back a bit as noticed when I decided to answer Springy's question on frequency of contact. My hairdresser (who I see socially as well a bit) also gave me a good talking to today as she said that she didn't want to see me slink back to where I was this time last year as I had moved on lots (I was telling her about ex's - imagined - big house etc). I didn't realise how easy it is to slip right back into that over-analysing mode, though obviously know the reason for it now in terms of increased contact with ex, thereby allowing him (I am guessing) head space and placing him in my memory on a regular basis. So, double yep - back on the no contact unless essential stuff about DS and forget his crap and concentrate on DS and I.

Well - Yep, my ex's new wife is most certainly welcome to him. Not interested in the whys and hows of her/them anymore (my new less analytical attitude!) unless it affects DS in any way. Am still doing potty training, just liasing with nursery so we do the same thing really. If ex wants to do similar, then good, if not, then fine; can hopefully work around it! DS does seem ready and I am ready and keen (also, know its a long way away, but DS starts school in Sept - in case anyone was in any doubt! - so looking to be dry and confident well before then).....How are things with you?

McNaughty Wed 18-Jan-12 20:14:53

I very much agree with everyone about him not coming into your house AT ALL. Never mind rifling through your hard drive etc... Its too late for any of that kind of interaction. After all, you might just have thrown some things away by mistake... oops! smile

Keep to your new resolution of less contact/less headspace. I think you know that we will all keep you on the right track grin.

You may not be ready for it, but have you thought about deleting some of the old communications you have from him? Perhaps archive it so you can't dip into it yourself. Its a constant reminder of how he lied to you and you don't need that even near your fingertips.

It sounds to me as though he is constantly coming up with ideas to contact you - knowing that the requests are ridiculous/crossing the line/baiting you, yet he is almost guaranteed a response from you, often making you look unreasonable. Put your foot down about what you will and won't talk to him about. Try not to cross that line. He's invading your personal space at the moment and will continue to do so if you let him.

He shouldn't have a window into your life, so only engage with him about your DS. Anything else should be off limits.

Dee34 Tue 24-Jan-12 08:37:40

Sorry to drag this thread up - can see that there are so many people who are going through the early days of affair discovery and I feel so much for them as I was in the same position this time last year......will try and post on some other threads...

But, today, I have just found out that my ex's new wife (the one he married at end of Nov) is now pregnant.

He did not attend one of our son's school visits as he was with her at their first scan (I put two and two together after he gave me an excuse at the time about how he had a doctor's appointment. When I shook my head at him about this, he said, 'It's no big deal, Dee34, I saw the school two days later anyway'.....

Apparently, they came off birth control as they wanted to give it time to flush out of her system, but guessing by first scan thing, she will be giving birth this summer.

I am in total shock - all of this was relayed on my doorstep - I asked as I had a sense about something (spooky, eh?). So much for focusing on our son......

I am also left hurt at the fact that 12 months ago, he sat in our old house, told me he never wanted to have another child with me etc. At the time, I said (jokingly), that I bet he would be married and pregnant within an year....wish I could have the same foresight in picking lottery numbers <sigh>. Oh and feeling totally and utterly humiliated (though that is on a small scale right now).

Sweet heart - just seen your post - am emailing you xx

mummytime Tue 24-Jan-12 09:09:12

Yes its a blow, but at least he's getting them all over quickly. The other good news maybe is that he might back off your DS when he has a new baby. So you might just be able to get some more freedom, maybe even able to move away properly.
What are you doing for you now? You do need to start looking after yourself, and having some fun.

McNaughty Tue 24-Jan-12 09:15:46


My heartfelt wishes are winging their way to you. I think that this was always going to be in the pipeline. He's a liar, its as straightforward as that. He will say anything to mainpulate you and hurt you. And he really doesn't care.

I can't stop now, but I will post later.

Its even more important for you to focus on yourself and your DS. Maybe staying close to your Ex is not going to be tenable for you.

In the meantime, don't engage with him. He will be looking for ways to get at you, so please don't let him. You are his only audience, so its time for you to walk even further away.

Plan your escape from this dimwit. You deserve so much better.

Patienceobtainsallthings Tue 24-Jan-12 09:35:35

Dee big hugs ,rattle it all out to your counsellor if you can get a chance .

Patienceobtainsallthings Tue 24-Jan-12 09:49:12

Protect yourself emotionally as much as you can Dee ,I am far healthier not getting drawn into my exs life ,2yrs on i truly dont care .Gf phoned me NY day ,re the kids ,i told her to tell him to contact my sol ,she called me cruel.Just some daft wee lass.Aint got a clue the upset her and kids dad have caused the children.But their lives are none of my business.Works both ways ,my life is NONE of their business.woo hoo.I refuse to get drawn into their mess ,i learned to protect myself against it.When GF called she said "Hi Patience ,Its +$%%^ here,Mr Patience's GF ,I nearly said to her Yeah ,and hows that working out for ya .
Apparantley he had had the worst xmas and NYs ever and she's never seen a man so heartbroken ..........shame x
I think they call it consequences .
Remember life is more of a marathon than a sprint .
Cry it out ,punch and kick and get rid of your anger ,you have a great life ahead of you without this lying tosser xxxxx

springydaffs Tue 24-Jan-12 10:38:30

yes patience, they do ham it up to anyone and everyone hmm

Bless you Dee ((HUG)). Do look after yourself eh, get as much loving support as you can, including this thread! (bit concerned that you're saying you're 'dragging it up' ??) btw are you still seeing a counsellor? though sometimes I think it helps more, during acute times, to spend time - online and in rl - with people who are going through, or have been through, similar heartache.

Thinking of you, lots of love winging its way to you xx

Dee34 Tue 24-Jan-12 10:51:57

Thanks - am still numb to be honest. Fully expected this to happen and yes, it seems like with this, this is the final nail in the coffin for me. This was always something I was ‘scared’ of happening and now it has, so I am at least free from that fear…..I think, even though I would never take him back and we are done and dusted, it is like a stab through the heart all over again. It is also so hurtful that he so very publicly rejected me and yet, is happy to go along living a fantasy by planning to get pregnant with her from the moment she arrived here (I know I shouldn't,but have worked out that she was preggers when they got hitched in Nov).

The news is also a bit of a trigger to make me re-think things again, I do wonder if he had been seeing her for a lot longer than he lets on, as who, in their right mind would plan to move in with someone, get married and have a baby with a person they had only physically seen for 30-odd days……… just seems strange. Also, I feeling personally low now as thinking that he could never ever have loved me (at least not as much as he does new wife, with the grand romantic, dramatic gestures). I cant help but to keep replaying their life over and over to try and get some sense from it all.....

Met Oct 2010 on busines trip (2 nights)
Second busines trip in Dec 2012 (5 nights)
Ex leaves us for NY and runs off to be with her (7 nights). On that trip, they plan to be together forever and she plans to move here
Between Jan 2011 and July 2011, they spend 30-odd days together, here or in the US.
She moves here in July 2011, living with ex from day 1
He introduces DS to her after 3 days of her arriving here in July 2011
They get married late Nov 2011. She gets pregnant around this time
They move house last week - big leafy house near town centre
He tells me she is pregnant in Jan 2012.
All of this intense stuff all within 6 months. By the time she has her baby, she will have been here for 12 months....transtlantic move, moving in together, getting married, buying a house, pregnant and baby within a year.

It also makes me feel like a complete failure - he is going back to the same circumstances of 2 years ago, willingly as pregnancy was no accident. I am left feeling like I WAS the one at fault, like look 'see, ex can do the family/commitment thing, just not with you Dee34 because you are x,y, z'. Not healthy thinking, I know, but its all that I can think of at the moment.

And of course, I now have to think about DS having a half-sibling that I am unable to give him (and – irrational – fears, such as will he prefer spending time there as he really likes babies etc). Dec 29th 2010, I was preparing to start fertility treatment and 7 days later, ex was telling me that he never wanted to have another child with me…..and then he does this…..Also, how will DS feel, knowing that he only gets to see his dad part-time, whereas the new baby will always be there….esp as this is all so soon after everything imploded. I am just so angry with him. He is so completely selfish and self-absorbed (and yes, I do get that this is his life now, he can do what he wants, with who he wants....just feel like poo).

wellthatsdoneit Tue 24-Jan-12 11:10:59

Hi Dee - sorry I don't have the time right now to respond fully, but I am thinking of you and I can imagine how difficult it all is for you right now (I suspect my ex stopped short of telling me his new girlfriend was pregnant when he told me about her at christmas). But yes, please continue to take whatever comfort and solace you can here - you're certainly not 'dragging it up'.

It's new information and it will take some time to process and acclimatise to it. You have every right to be hurt and feel angry at the way you and your DS have been treated. Jesus though, watching your ex and his new partner - it's like waiting for a train crash to happen isn't it? Irresponsible or mad? Who knows, but you are far better off out of it.

I'm sending you a big unmumsnetty hug ((((((()))))))

Patienceobtainsallthings Tue 24-Jan-12 11:16:38

Huge shock for you Dee ,but his behaviour throughout has been appauling ,you are a star,you are amazing,he isn't.It is very difficult to stay out of exs business ,but once you get to that place it is a place of mental freedom.Would be easier for my ex if i was still drawn in he could still tell me how i was doing things wrong,how its all my fault how gf is such a wonderful person blah blah blah,i m not interested anymore ,its better where i am now,concentrate on you and ds,spoil urself with as little stress as possible in the next few days and talk it out as much as you can.Talking is healing x

Dee34 Tue 24-Jan-12 11:30:00

Hi Springy - thanks for support...I only meant dragging it up, in a flippant way, as had been meaning to come on here and post on some other 'discovery' type threads....then ex gives me the news I have been pretty much waiting for really (so not sure why this is such a huge shock!). No, not seeing counsellor at the moment - thought I was 'fixed', but not so sure with today's news....

Also have to admit, I did let myself down and I cried as were talking (DS in the car, so didn't see). I think it was the shock really. It is such a blow, esp as he left as we were about to start fertilty treatment and he has now run off and got someone (younger) pregnant, whilst I am sitting here with time ticking on and no prospect of any further children because of ex's decision...Also baffled that he would leave similar 'misery-making' experiences of new baby and less attention on him/them as a couple to what is surely going to be a 'worse' scenario (remember, one bit of sterling advice he gave me before he left was that I spent too much time/focus on DS and for the future, I should remember to put my partner first!)?

Patience - thanks. I agree, but at the moment, cant accept it as yet (that I am better off etc). At the moment, it looks like ex is living the high life. New big house, new wife and now new baby (no dobut, he is going great guns in his career and bringing in big bonuses. Doubt new wife would have looked twice at ex if she had met him 12 years ago.....see, I cant stop these thoughts all over again!). Whereas I am just about floating. And, just realised that I will be getting even less maintenance when the baby comes along.....great. You are right about the lying tosser. Cant remember if I posted at the time, but just before he flew off to get married (a couple of days before), he gave me some emotional drama of how he had regrets, how he had wanted to come back, but knew I wouldn't take him back (load of crap - he never once asked, not that I would have taken him). The man was crying buckets down the phone (yes, I was a mug to have even given him than much of my time). All I said back to him at the time was that no-one had to do anything they didn't want to. If he didn't want to get married, then dont! And he did.

McNaughty - thanks. Yes, I think I will be well to keep myself protected from him from now on as just get dragged back into the murky waters. Yes, maybe he will be a bit less obsessed wth DS (I say obsessed loosely, as his interest is obviously on his terms only). I did engage a bit this morning as the news unravelled. I asked (in all seriousness), what did his friends and family think? A few have questioned the rush, but others are happy for him/them......bonkers. He was asking to have DS this weekend as new wife is away for the weekend - ruddy cheek.

Mummytime - thanks. Not doing anything for myself at the moment! Though can be a bit old dose of self-pity will be in the offing this evening. I think as you, McNaughty, Springy and others have mentioned, I seriously need to think about future for DS and I.

Dolly - will check out email in a moment and get back to you....I feel like I have been knocked for six. I am at work, but not working, just processing really......

I cannot believe that he was asking me one day to go out to Legoland with him and DS one day before NY, then 3 days later was ignoring my calls to DS, then a few days later asking if we could all do something together as a family. And asking for all our old photos. All the time, knowing he was expecting a new baby.The idiot.

And what if new wife gets PND (she wont though, she has assured him I would imagine) or the sex life dwindles or dies a death (again, am sure she knows the score on this), or doesn't want to go back to work and wants to be a SAHM (hmmmm, dont think ex will want to foot the bill for everything on past experience, or I will be the one to get it in the neck/have my purse hit....), or they grow apart (again, she knows the score here) or dares to put her new baby first....

I feel utterly worthless at the moment.

wellthatsdoneit Tue 24-Jan-12 11:30:14

All I can say is thank god your DS has you for his mum with that fruitloop as his father.

wellthatsdoneit Tue 24-Jan-12 11:49:44

Sorry Dee - cross posted. I think you've answered many of your own doubts there. You haven't fucked up - he has, and there's no control you can have over his behaviour. He's responsible for his own actions. Thankfully he's someone else's problem now. Heaven forbid indeed that the new partner should ever want to give her newborn her undivided attention, or struggle with losing the baby weight, or feel to tired for sex or be her usual glamorous self, or get depressed, or ill, or ever actually need to be able to rely on him. The big house and the big bonuses - it's all based on nothingness though isn't it. There's no substance behind it and at some point it's going to crash down like a pack of cards. God, it's going to be a white knuckle ride for her isn't it. Still, she can't say she didn't know what she was getting in to <shrug>

springydaffs Tue 24-Jan-12 11:52:36

I do feel for you Dee. That heinous party line about individuality, people have their own lives, it's none of our business (blah blah effing BLAH); move on etc - God, it's just so inhuman I find. Beats us with a stick when we're hurting and in agony.

as for thinking that he could never ever have loved me (at least not as much as he does new wife, with the grand romantic, dramatic gestures : my ex told me he hadn't loved me on the day we married, that he felt sorry for me and had to go through with it. There's a pickaxe to the heart eh? I believed it for a bit (it was actually the catalyst to me leaving him, so all wasn't lost) but rationale won out and I just wasn't having it: it was a way to control and shame me. He also, like your laughable ex, went on to the love of the century, making large about how this was the real thing, that he had been hoodwinked by the actress/matchgirl he picked up from the gutter (that would be me) and that now he had the real mccoy - and what a difference! The fact is, he had her hook, line and sinker; had developed his levels of control and moved in on her with the full armoury. She didn't stand a chance (not that I feel sorry for her - she has caused unbelievable damage to my family).

He has kept you closely within his orbit which makes this revelation all the more acutely painful. imo he is not right in the head (lame phrase), not a kosher bod - I would go so far as to say he is not capable of loving. Anyone. Including her. The poor cow is up the duff, not in her own country with her friends and support systems, banned from ever living there again. this is what he does to women Dee: he sets you up big time, stitched right in and up.

You may not have the truth about what happened in the past and the gap is doing your head in re how could he do this with someone he has known for 30 days? I agree that it doesn't sound probable - but OTOH whatever he says and does is alarming, he could well have built this entire charade on 30 days imo. She's either a desperatey vulnerable person to have been taken in by it all, to the point of forfeiting her entire life for him; or she is Bonnie to his Clyde. Who know who cares, they are both mad.

SearchSquad Tue 24-Jan-12 14:25:16

Dee, I am someone who has been lurking on your previous thread and now this new thread for a long time. I keep checking in on this thread hoping that you are managing well and wishing that your ex would at some point realise his folly.

Normally I have nothing to add because the ladies here give such brilliant advice. However, can I say this - you really need to MOVE AWAY from your ex physically, mentally and in every way possible. I feel that you interact with him way too much and this is really affecting your ability to get over him. You are more vulnerable than you think you are and your ex still has a lot of control over your life.

Do you realise that maybe you don't need to interact with him so much, that maybe you are not ready to be that unaffected cool ex partner who doesn't give a hoot about his new life? You did invest your whole being into your relationship and it is only natural that you are finding it difficult to get over him.

If I were you, I would now move away so that I stop seeing so much of ex. Or at reduce the interaction with the ex to a minimum. Sometimes, out of sight is out of mind.

Smellslikecatspee Tue 24-Jan-12 14:57:41

Hi Dee, I too am a lurker on your old thread and this one and have been silently cheering you on.

I can't believe that you have been through so much and are still standing. You should be so proud of yourself.

One day you DS will put all of this together and see how strong you were for him.

Patienceobtainsallthings Tue 24-Jan-12 17:19:15

Just to say you will heal at your own pace ,we all do,I have my counsellors number handy "just incase "not been for nearly a yr but great support if i need it .I also have a WA worker who I call if ever I need to run something by because I value her opinion.I still have bad days but I dont fight them anymore ,I feel the pain or the numbness acknowledge the emotion and then let it go .On those days I treat myself well,no stress ,easy life .I could still get drawn into exs life ,I choose not to .It is not good for my mental health .Independence is my strength.He will always try and push my buttons ,try and hurt me because he is so unhappy himself .Healthiest thing for me is to concentrate on me and my kids .
This too shall pass Dee ,and you will bounce back even stronger xxxx

Dee34 Tue 24-Jan-12 17:28:56

Feeling a bit better now....(dont think I could have felt any worse though this morning tbh). Huge thanks as always for all of the support and excellent advice.

Yes, think recent levels of contact that I mentioned before have contributed to make this news really knock me for six. Funnily enough SearchSquad, I feel that I had really turned a huge corner up until Nov and that awful call just before he went off to go and get married. I didnt think much of it at the time, but really, I let my guard down a lot as he basically spewed his emotional tripe at me (fair enough though, I was a 'willing' listener), then put the phone down and went off to get married (and he could well have known that wife was preggers at the time when he said to me how he wished he had known that I loved him at the time, how he would never have looked at another woman - it is at times like this, that I can now look at the new wife and feel utter pity for her. Yes, he has effectively banned her from ever moving (with him that is) to US or elsewhere, pretty much as he refused point blank to move away from here when I was with him - for 11 years, he refused to budge and would not even entertain the idea and I stayed here, like a mug. Ex is - excuse my language - fucked up and confused. A man who wanted his freedom and then hitches his wagon to the first person he meets). But, yes, need to batten down the hatches and minimise all contact until I can/do move away.....I will formalise contact agreements and send him dates for the year and we can disuss - briefly - via email. I dont want to see him. I will also ask him to use a book at handover (got it as advised on here ages ago). Ditto for a diary to record any (minimal) changes in dates.

Smellslike - thank-you. I dont feel strong at all. Esp after giving ex a good old blub-fest on my doorstep this morning. He must have loved that.....arse!

Well - again, huge thanks. I am mightly pissed off at myself for feeling so hurt at what I knew was the inevitable. I think that all the old emotions just got well and truly stirred up. And I know I have come on a lot from Jan last year, but there is that temptation to think 'how come he can treat some one so badly, act like a pig, get away with it and thunder off into the sunset of happy endings' feeling exhausted now though.

Springy - think your description is accurate and hadn't thought about it like this. Yes, I should remember that ex is crafting something magical from his drivel of nonsense. He was the same with me, and yet, I was dumped like a hot brick when a newer, more accommodating model came along. Someone who was so madly in love with a stranger that she was calling him a fantastic person and lamenting how she was so lucky to have found him (after 7 nights together - and honestly, ex is not that good - at anything) and looking forward to their many fantastic years ahead.

Dolly - cant get back onto private email at the moment.....typical of my day!

Met a good friend for lunch who gave me some tough love talking to (needed it, as think I was at risk of going loopy in rl and revealing too much of myself to people here (not friends, just work colleagues - who know nothing of what has happened, so I would have seemed a bit loopy shouting ex's news out - and I was so madly wanting to shout this out this morning, from the sheer percieved injustice of it all.......).

Cant believe that this time yesterday, my biggest concern was whether I should go on a speed dating night. And actually, I do need to make sure that this is my concern i.e. not fussing about them and actually getting on with my own life.

BTW, my spooky senses are telling me that he will soon announce that it is twins they are expecting (only suspect this as ex and I always used to joke about this as his mum is a twin and his sister ended up having twins!)

springydaffs Tue 24-Jan-12 17:59:25

Get your RADA training brushed up Dee. You've got to hide how hurt your are from him. I wouldn't make a sudden, pointed move; just act distracted, busy, casual. Preferably no direct contact unless your leg is hanging off (you get my drift).

could personally vomit at the 'he would never have gone off with anybody if he'd known you loved him' RAAAAHHHHH angry

McNaughty Tue 24-Jan-12 18:43:27

Dee, I’m pleased to hear that you are feeling stronger this evening. It’s a tough day and these things will come at you out of the blue. I cannot emphasis enough that you need to be as far away from him emotionally as you can be, otherwise he is going to continue to torment you with every twist and turn in his life. The contempt with which he treats you is a disgrace. Arriving on your doorstep and dumping his latest news into your lap. If he gets a kick from telling you, then shame on him. If he is too stupid to realise he is hurting you, then you should think yourself lucky that he is out of your life.

That crap about “if he’d known you loved him” is just another throwaway comment to make himself feel better about his cheating. You know its not true – you’d only recently had his son. Your love for him was staring him in the face, the twat .

Make it your priority to get the communications books in place and diary for the year. Keep reminding yourself that his views on co-parenting are not the same as yours. Develop a hard veneer as Springy is saying and keep your own feelings for those who care about you. The ‘leg hanging off’ is exactly right. smile Think about how you are going to communicate via the books. IE don’t make it a chore for yourself as I would take a guess that he won’t comply and you’ll be upset by him not engaging. Short bullet points is all he needs. The thing is that you don’t want it to become another way for him to hurt you. Someone else may have better advice on that.

I can feel the sadness from your posts earlier and thinking about it, its as though he has taken your life from you and has re-created your relationship with OW in front of your eyes. Remaining so involved with him is making you re-live so many moments in your life and if you are not careful, it will eat you up. Your ex is an extremely selfish person and doesn’t care who he destroys to get what he wants. Remember that his emotional education has come from US self-help books and seminars so trying to understand him as an empathetic human being is a non starter. He’s embraced the ‘me’ culture.

Try to think about where you are today and where you would like to be in a week’s time, then plot your way towards it. You don’t need to do any research, you know how he behaves towards you, so it’s a real chance to distance yourself. It might just be one or two things that you change, very subtely. How about starting a new, fresh thread with an upbeat title?

Patienceobtainsallthings Tue 24-Jan-12 18:51:50

Just remember splitting up,ex getting married and gf pg,thats hurt/pain like most people can t ever imagine,but you have dealt with it and have a great future ahead

romneymarsh Tue 24-Jan-12 20:12:39

Dee must have been an awful shock, although you did know this would happen, just I know that one day in the not too distant future I will hear the same and I must say my heart sunk when I read your update today.

You really must do as some of the posters above say, you have to stop engaging with him, that is the only way you will totally get over this break up.

I would say I am 80% there but your news today would definitely knock me back a bit in my healing. Thinking about you Dee, take care.

Xales Tue 24-Jan-12 20:18:21

Wow Dee sad Massive hugs!

I think I say it every time. What a wanker!!!

Well there isn't much more this man can do to kick you. It's not a huge surprise is it.

Yes they have a nice big house and she is PG. She has him though. She is now going to get 'fat' in his eyes and then have a baby. Sex is going to be off the cards for a while. She may full well get post natal depression, far away from family and friends, leaving work for however short a period and being stuck in a house with him. If he is as hands on as he was with your DS she is pretty trapped and going to be very lonely. He is also behind her back still whimpering to you as a completely pathetic worm that he has made a mistake etc. He did this knowing she was pregnant and they were getting married. That is her prize!! He is just going to get older, greyer and balder.

How long before he leaves her for something better or she sees the light and leaves him?

Fingers crossed you can in the future still have more children with a much better person.

Just be the best damn mum you can be to your DS. With one good parent who shows how much he is loved he will be fine smile

You have had such a lucky escape.

Xales Tue 24-Jan-12 20:20:41

Are you mourning him or the loss of a chance at a child? There is a huge difference...

You can always lie to him if ever confronted and say that to protect yourself.

Dee34 Tue 24-Jan-12 20:50:20

Yes, I do need to put my best game face on now and deflect ex's news and act as I dont give a toss.....will certainly try. I wont have to see him now until Sat morning when he picks up DS for overnight visit (with a phonecall on Fri).

In attempts to heal myself, have been thinking about how to limit interaction at least as first steps. So, will definitely enforce diary and book and take on advice about asking for bare minimum. If he doesn't complete as he is supposed to, then he can lump it and I will carry on as normal (i.e. do as I please - about time I think). As mentioned, contact had been heightened over last few weeks with xmas and school business. Looking back, ex also drew me 'in' to his life by constantly changing up access in the last few weeks, which has meant requests via email/text/calls/f2f to change a call here, change a night there. When doing this has told me that he wants to change say evening call to DS at 7pm to earlier as he is in the cinema! Cue me flying into a huff as (1) he cant be bothered to honour the calls that he was insistent about and it looks like DS is worked around his schedule and (2) I dont really want to know that they are off at the cinema/having a meal on a Sat night, whilst I am at home on my all that is going to be knocked on the head. I will outline weekend visits for rest of the year and ask him when he would like to take DS on holiday/for a longer visit, to get that out of the way as well as know I cant stop that (he wasn't bothered last year - asked once soon after new gf got here and I said no, would prefer that DS didn't go on holiday with a complete stranger!).

Xales - yes, have to keep chanting that to myself...I HAVE HAD A LUCKY ESCAPE. As good friend at lunch said, imagine if he had left me pregnant (which he could easily have done I think). Yes, I was silently waiting for this day really (may have mentioned it a few times on here)...I remember WWIFN mentioned something about romantic affairs and the whole hero/save me complex and how these particular affairs start with the whole soulmate stuff and progresses with yet more and more grand, dramatic gestures and sacrifices. Honestly, it was like reading how ex was behaving to a tee....very, very bizarre. Hmmm, good question. I would never want another child with him, or want to be with him (we have at least that in common).....honestly, it is about mourning the loss of not having another child (maybe) and the complete rejection I thought of that life, which in fact, was actually, just a big fat rejection of me.....

Romney - so glad to hear that you are on a better path. Thanks, and rest assured, I will take heed and keep my distance from him now.

McNaughty/Springy - yes, will start to focus on me now and the distance I need to create from this very moment on. Yes, I feel totally like he is basically replaced me with a more acceptable model and that's that. I think that he knows that this news has hurt me - as he told me, and as I was crying in front of him (the shame of it now), he asked me to stop crying. And that is exactly what I need to do.....

I may need to emotionally dump on here later tonight, as do feel like some things are eating away (please feel free to remind me that I have had a lucky escape and to pull my boot straps up and move on).....thanks for all of the advice and support.


Dee34 Tue 24-Jan-12 20:51:41

Patience - thanks, I think you have done a sterling job in detaching from your ex. I am determined to meet you on that 'other' side!

newhorizon Tue 24-Jan-12 20:56:27

Ah Dee, my heart goes out to you. My heart sunk when I read your post. I PM'd you some time ago. If you recall our stories are quite similar only my ex also abandoned his dd.

You are remarkable when you you think all you have been through over the last year, you are stronger than you think and you will also get over this knock.

Once a cheater, always a cheater and I actually pity that poor woman...because it's only a matter of time and by then you will have well moved on in your wonderful new life.

Dee34 Tue 24-Jan-12 20:57:36

This really seemed to sum up (at the time) my situation with ex......I had the page bookmarked, but think I will delete it now (maybe along with all of ex's emails, as advised, but need to read through them in case there is an 'paper trail' stuff in there that I need for the future wrt DS, so will just file everything away for now as dont want to wade through that stuff now).

Romantic Infidelity

Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continue living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate—someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own—is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.

People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born—any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.

Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up everything. Men in love lose their heads—at least for a while.

Hi Darling

Gosh sweetheart what a day you have had. Great advice as always so I won't reiterate but please do remember this.

As hideous and painful as it has been/is you have now had to deal with/survived the worst worst things.

Him leaving = check
Him bringing OW over here = check
Him buying house with her = check
Him living near you with her = check
Him getting married = check
Now him having another baby = check

You have survived it. It may feel awful now but there is no more additional fear to come - you aren't waiting for the other 'balls' to drop you can now focus on you you you and distance distance distance. I know so much easier said than done but this is it now my lovely there is nothing else to fear. And you are still standing, you managed work today, you are and can cope. As you know I am still dealing with not having another child and that is something that I am very much still mourning so I do know how hard it is though my sweetie (but so not to late for you if you did meet someone/want another one etc).

Evil Dolly also says that on the 'brightside' hot va va voom sex on the stairs with new wifey won't have lasted much beyond the honeymoon (hah!) and honestly given they don't know each other that well a new baby puts a different slant on (if not strain) to the most established and perfect relationships....not saying it will happen but if it does you will be looking amazing, swanning off on fabulous dates whilst he is up all night dealing with a new baby and prob very homesick wife who has no family over during this huge time of change (I know, was that person, it is hard) so I can't imagine it will be a bed of romantic roses....

HUGE love. I can so imagine to be in your shoes and no doubt will be soon so know it must be horrid and telling you on the doorstep? FUCKER emoticon.

Patienceobtainsallthings Tue 24-Jan-12 22:07:57

its all swings and roundabouts Dee ,I havent seen him since July ,so much easier,but this time last year he was regularly calling me a c%%t on the phone,so i did it all by text.I took back the power but he stopped paying maintenance.Any attention fuelled his ego,when i refused to join in anymore he stopped money and contact for dcs.Just a manipulative fecker.he showed a vile dark side and when i accepted that was the man he had become i could start to let go of my and old life.I first met gf when i was swapping car seats into his car,he could have warned me she was there,he could have introduced us,instead i opened the door and there she is sat where i used to sit,i just thought "lamb to the slaughter" & re him ,just and weak as ever,i said good morning and went on my way.A year previous i would have ripped her fucking head off.Soi had to work through a lot of issues Dee but it was the only way i could find to bring me any peace.I dont want to be angry and bitter,but my awareness of his behaviour is greater everyday.I never realised how positive this experience would be especially on the days i felt he had ripped out every internal organ,the pain was so great.But hang in there Dee we are a strong breed of women ,your heart will heal but these men have souls as black as soot and it will catch up with them and they have to live with it.

andthatwasthat Tue 24-Jan-12 22:11:14

you know Dee34 I have to admire you for all you have coped with so far, alls i really wanted to add is that this latest event must be the impetus you have needed to finally get this man out of your head, your thoughts and your life. he has moved on and has yet kept you dangling somehow. us women, we love and care deeply, even to those who are complete shits. i hope you went on that speed date, nw is the time for you to really heal yourself, get your life back on track, think positive and get that shit out of every facet that he does not belong in! sending you the biggest hug and warmest heart, heres to a great year ahead Dee34 - you dont need this man, or his sad waste of a life interupting your life anymore. cut, cut, cut

andthatwasthat Tue 24-Jan-12 22:13:26

any may i also add, that in no way does he have everything; great life etc. he just has a new partner ... all the relationships problems will come to them in due time. in due time someone who is worthy of you will also enter your life, get yourself ready!

springydaffs Wed 25-Jan-12 00:11:00

oh i certainly hope so Dee! <3

eyewonder Wed 25-Jan-12 01:32:53

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

mrscynical Wed 25-Jan-12 07:56:08

Oh Dee - I am ten years down the line from where you are now. Our stories are very similar so I do know exactly what you are feeling.

Early on I realised that, in order to move on, I had to go the text/e-mail only route re child pick ups etc. This was partly because I needed to distance myself and to stop him bragging about how wonderful his new wife (yes, he married immediately as well) was and how she was loved by everyone and how finally he had found his 'true love'. It was staggeringly insensitive and I could see it would not be good for me to keep dwelling on how bad I felt about myself. This was the best thing I could do and I definitely think it helped me get over the situation quicker than I might have otherwise done. Of course, via the children, he would let me know how great his life was with his new wife but I was so detached that I would actually snigger at his attempts to keep showing off. I must admit it did cross my mind that he was kind of 'protesting too much' but I got on with my life and did not really give it any thought.

Cut to this Christmas when out of the blue his wife called me - first contact I have ever had with her in those ten years. She told me that their marriage was a disaster and in fact had been within a month of the event. She had gone on to have two children with him in the hope that everything would get better but that she could take no more and was starting divorce proceedings. His behaviour during their marriage sounded even worse than my marriage to him and I ended up being incredibly sympathetic and actually feeling really sorry for her!

He has now messed with the lives of five children and is on his own. His career has suffered and he is apparently on anti-depressents. I have received texts from him offering his friendship and asking forgiveness but, apart from being decent and relatively understanding, I am not interested at all. My life is great, met a lovely man, got a good job and am stress free so I shall not be his 'friend' but shall be polite for the sake of my children and that is it.

Funny, if I had known how it would turn out all those years ago I would have felt vindicated or even quite pleased. But you know what, I actually don't feel that. I just feel incredibly sorry for all the children involved in this mess.

Dee, everything will be ok. Distance yourself, stop breaking down in front of him, get on with your life. There are decent people (and men) out there. Go find them and get on with YOUR life and take care of your son. I promise you that things will get better. But YOU have to take a hand in making everything alright - knowing that is the most important thing.

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan Wed 25-Jan-12 08:02:24

eyewonder you're meant to pay mn if you want to advertise on here love - and as i said elsewhere your copy on that webpage is barely literate which hardly works well as an advertisement for a book.

Patienceobtainsallthings Wed 25-Jan-12 08:02:29

Love that post Mrs Cynical x

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan Wed 25-Jan-12 08:17:13

(sorry for thread hijack OP - that poster is turning up on relationship threads trying to sell her book which is rather crass. hope your thread is helping)

SearchSquad Wed 25-Jan-12 10:59:51

Dee, good to hear that you are planning to distance yourself from him. I am sure your ex had a heart warming ego massage by seeing you cry. Don't ever give him this pleasure again.

Your ex realises that you are still quite interested in his life and he is feeding this information in such an insensitive manner in a bid to get some reaction from you. It is his feeble attempt to assert relevance and control in your life. Be strict about access and changeovers, any updates from him can be via email or letter and minimise all in person contact.

Right now Dee, you are dwelling far too much on your ex's life. Harsh as it may sound, please recognise that you have no control over it. Let it go. There is no happy ending in store for him. His ego, insensitivity and selfishness will always come in way of true happiness.

Once you stop interacting with him, slowly his relevance in your life will fade away and you will be no longer care. And then you will be free to focus on your own true desires.

Dee34 Wed 25-Jan-12 12:38:08

Morning feeling a lot better today, clarity is beginning to seep through and I am also strengthening my resolve to cut ex out of my life fully. I will be going right back to basics, how things were when I was still in the old house with DS and contact was very minimal (I can see now that certain events sort of threw me off course - house sale, moving house, events in their life* etc). These should - will - no longer affect me**. Contact will be via email only (ditched texting unless it is an emergency and he has DS. If I have DS, then there is no emergency that I could be interested in). Though he continues to abuse this, sending me 3 emails on Sunday morning, after he had dropped DS off at mine, asking me what size shoes DS takes and what age trousers and then another one about how DS was (he was completely fine and not ill or anything, so a strange one) and then how potty training was going. I ignored all of them - funnily enough, I was only drawn into email exchanges/debates when he wrote something to pee me off, and so the battle would begin. But, yes, no more. So draining and I know that when I have minimal contact with him, I feel so much lighter and happier (e.g when he is away for a good chunk of time or when I was away for NY and he screwed up my phone calls to DS). Early days, but am hoping to now re-set agree with you Searchsquad - I have been showing far too much interest in ex's life and going-ons and it is was eating away at me. Time to put a stop to it. And I plan to never show that man any emotion ever again (I shudder now at the whimsical style 'dont cry' he mentioned yesterday morning).

I had a list of things I was going to post this morning (that came up as random thoughts during the evening, things like how come this is what living his life like everyday is his last is like etc etc. Basically thoughts I dont need to give more space to etc). But on waking this morning, I felt determined to not sink further into that mire of crap, so will not post it. I need to stop those internal questions - questions I will never know the answer to really. And frankly, I dont want to know the answers anymore I's nothing to do with me and my life/future.

Santa - thanks for heads-up. I think 12 months ago, I would have been a sucker to buy a 'win your man' back type of book (lordy, ex would have loved to have been a witness to that!). eyewonder - no, there is no relationship between me and ex at all (bare the 'dysfunctional' one of late). Noting to save. Just need to sort out DS (and I do have some fears about how relationship with ex etc will pan out for him once new baby arrives).....

andthatwasthat/Dolly - yep, agree and thanks! I think honestly, I was on tenterhooks for this news (it just came a bit sooner than I imagined), so it does feel like a release for me in a weird way. Far more upsetting (yesterday that is - now it just feels like 'carry on', hope its not shock!) to hear about baby than the other events that have occured in last few months. Yes, will use this as a catapult towards bigger, better and brighter things and to foucs on myself and DS. There is certainly nothing left to fear now and I know that that fear was something that I gave life and energy to, energy that can now be put to good use elsewhere.....hope you are well Dolly now that you are back in sunny Oz!

Patience - get what you mean....I know ex's behaviour patterns (though I have in the past blinded myself to them as I slipped into thinking that he was telling the truth about x, y or z etc). Agree, any attention is like a big old pat on the tummy for ex. Time to disassociate - big-time. I may go back and revisit some of the tools and professional support I had last year, when I had started moving on properly (and I bet if I look back, it will be a case that as I was cutting out emotion with ex, having minimum contact, that would be around the time that he would drop by old house crying, uttering regrets etc...all such a big game).

*Going to see this as a blanket thing now in my way of thinking. I AM torturing myself going over the bare details of said events, so now, its just their life and their events. I was a bit too privvy to the details of these events, but that will/has stopped from today onwards.

** May need some help to stick on course here.....

Dee34 Wed 25-Jan-12 13:23:00

mrscynical - huge thanks.Your post so struck a chord with me......that has been my ex down to a is now perfect, she is perfect, they are perfect. And, yes, it does/did make me feel bad - very bad, especially with the added speed of events, which I interpreted not as madness or folly on their part, but as a big judgement on me and what our relationship had been/hadn't been, so as to propel ex in this manner.....of course, rationally, I can see that isn't the case, but being in his orbit and closely informed of their life going-ons has kept me down in this way. Yes, I will take the hand, lead in changing my life away from him and towards making everything right. I so hope that I will be in the same place as you in 10 years time (and with changes now taking place, hope to be happy again, without distraction from ex). Thank you.

newhorizon - how are things? Thank-you for the lovely words and it is certainly my new aim now (to get over this and keep moving forward without any (unwanted) distractions). Hope things are going well for you and your DD.

So, some brighter things to focus on.......I did have a list I started a few weeks ago. Need to dig it out and re-focus.

Hi Darling

Glad you are feeling a bit more on an even keel today and it sounds like you are being very analytical and self aware about everything which is great. Please don't feel 'bad' though about reacting the way that you did. Quite honestly you have every right to feel upset by it, by the speed of all of the sorry saga and being doorstepped with such news.

But it is the 'proper' start to a new you and what I am sure will be a wonderful future for you. I know I will be torturing myself when it happens with my ex and will be using your above post to navigate it as and when.

Try and see it as a kind of 'freedom'. No more bomb shells can come and you are in the clear blue water - even if it is not the water of your chosing - to find a new life and a new way of living.

Without sounding patronising, I am proud of you lovey. Short post tonight as past midnight and been clearing up garden with help of two backpackers all day so am knackered and then out for dinner tonight with DS and friend as it is Australia Day tomorrow so in 'holidayish' mode. Absolutely torrential rain for most of this week so don't feel envious! Its quite tropical where I am so it is very dank and swamp like at the moment.

I've had a bit of a week with ex but now feel very removed and quite pleased with myself for the way I have reacted. I feel a bit of a sense of freedom myself. Not sure how long it will last but I'm just not willing to get so over wrought about what I consider to be his unreasonableness and am going to 'fight' it by being super calm and measured. I've wasted enough time being floored by him and I think I am better than that and deserve better for myself.

Will get back to you tomorrow when not so befuddled by tiredness.

PS. I bought a cheap high pressure hose to do garden/decks and I have to say its been very cathartic - pointing the water 'gun' at things and cleaning them 'violently' is cheaper than therapy and quite empowering. Not to mention I can imagine inanimate objects to be ex and OW ; ) .....bit like being lara croft but cleaning at the same time ........

Dee34 Wed 25-Jan-12 19:43:11


Patienceobtainsallthings Wed 25-Jan-12 19:49:35

** May need some help to stick on course here.....

no worries ..........
just breakin a filthy habit innit smile

Patienceobtainsallthings Wed 25-Jan-12 19:50:52

ps Loving your Lara Croft ,Dolly xxx

Dee34 Thu 26-Jan-12 08:19:54


Sort of a AIBU I guess....

DS was overnight with ex yesterday. Ex sent me a text at 5.45am to say that DS was awake and wanted to speak to me. I didn't hear the text at the time, but picked it up when I woke up around 30 mins later. Ex then phoned (I did not respond to the text) at 6.15am (which is what woke me up). I suspected it was DS up at his usual early time, so decided to ignore it (does that make me a bad mum? I used to answer the phone, esp when in old house, but towards end of last year I thought, actually, ex is so mad keen to be a hands-on dad, let him deal with DS' tears, like I had to, as he has to manage through this, also he was overstepping boundaries, calling me in the evening and at all hours in the night like 3am or 4.30am, as DS was awake and wanted to speak to me). He then phoned again at 7am, but I was in the bathroom, so, feeling a bit guilty, sent him a short email saying 'What is up with DS? If he wants to speak to me, call now, as free'. That was at 7.15am. Got a quick one back 'No, he is fine now. He woke at 4.30am and asked for you'. Fine. I busy myself getting ready for work. Then ANOTHER call at 7.55am. This time from ex's car as he is now on way to drop DS off at nursery. Can hear DS grumbling in the background, try to talk to him, but cant hear, so ex relays what DS has said.....'He wants to go to the train station'.....Eh? Thought he was phoning to speak to me (I think to myself.....then of course my mind whirs into action. New wife obviously goes to the train station). Try to speak to DS, but he either cant hear me or is just in a funk, so I tell ex, why he is taking DS to the train station, he says he isnt but his wife obviously said goodybye to DS and explained where she was going. Cant lie, this did get me riled (images of them being all cosy and DS being upset about her going to the train station - latter is utterly false of course and DS just probably wants to go to the train station full-stop irrespective of who is there, but it's things like this that do send me into overthinking mode etc etc). Also upset a bit, as obviously DS wanted to go to the train station and not necessarily speak with me, but ex thought it right to call me up, now he had a grumpy pre-schooler in his car on his long drive to nursery.....

I will not react - old me (well, me of as late as Monday this week!) would have now sent ex a terse email telling him that he shouldn't be taking DS to the train station (yes, yes, know he cant, but this does rile me up! I fully suspect that he does take DS to the train station to drop wife off on the days he has him - just try not to focus on their happy clappy family image) and that he shouldn't be phoning me up to placate DS and then start in on their daily routines. Am I over-reacting?

I suspect I should not have even bothered answering the phone in the first place.......but, ex has thrown this back in my face more than once. How he has phoned with DS crying for me and I have not answered the phone. Hence, the guilt and, in the end, the factor in me emailing and answering the phone.

And blimey, he has just phoned AGAIN (8.10am). I did not answer!!!!! Probably to tell me off about telling him about boundaries before previous call ended.

PS: I should mention that on Tuesday evening, I sent ex an email outlining future comms (again). How I would only respond to urgent emails about DS when DS was with him. How he should now use the notebook that goes in DS' nursery bag now. No text etc. And he has now broken all those rules - because DS woke up early and wanted to speak to me. Is this valid?

MsPav Thu 26-Jan-12 08:53:09

No, he is at it again, and has got into your head once more. Ignore, ignore, ignore.

McNaughty Thu 26-Jan-12 09:11:51

Ditto what MsPav said. IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE.

Your Ex is now in the real world of having real children who wake up early, make demands, cry, are not rational, who want attention and just some reassurance and love. Don't let him use the day to day hard work of child rearing to get at you.

He'll have to learn to deal with this. Its not your responsibility, nor is your DS suffering in any way. Please don't feel guilty. Your Ex is just tryng to transfer his guilt on to you.


Reiterate above advice. Frankly if DS was EXTREMELY distressed then a call is Ok but it sounds like he was being normal 3.5 year old out of his routine but with his Dad who he sees very regularly so he should have been able to manage his behaviour. I'm also surprised he showed his (ex DH's) vunerability/inability to cope with normal pre school behaviour to you. I really am trying not to be conspiracy theorist about things or suggest things that are not 100% transparent but it sounds like a bit of reaction to your email proposing/outlining distance and structure. It seems like Oh good old Dee didn't really mean that, she will still be there for me 100% of time....if your ex didn't see DS much it could have been valid but given the amount of time he spends with him I would say its just a bit calculated (even if it is not absolutely conscious per se) to try and regain 'control'.

Huge kisses as I know even the suggestion that DS is not 100% is hard. My ex did the same a while ago when DS smashed his new flatscreen with toy (when he was not yet 3). Quite what I was meant to do about it I have no idea as he knew I was at spa for birthday with girlfriend but again it was just a you deal with this/share my pain kind of thing; nothing I could have done.

Love Dolly x

Patienceobtainsallthings Thu 26-Jan-12 10:07:36

Just stick to your plan Dee ,as you say the more phonecalls the more likely you are to be drawn into their world and thats not healthy,i know personally i would lose my unbiased perspective on a situation if this happened regularly.I used to get the odd phonecall when my ex had the kids,if i missed it i would text asking if everything ok? This is normal,i would do the same if kids were staying over with cousins etc and wanted to speak to me.All the calls this morning are inappropriate and unnecessary shouldnt b texting at 5.45 am ,he should be seeing to ds.
Cut urself loose from his neediness,lord knows you dont want to be hearing about every detail of his life anymore,even if he wants to share it.

Dee34 Thu 26-Jan-12 11:30:14

Thanks for the reality check - much, much appreciated. I think I was sort of thinking 'this is not right, this is the sort of thing someone would do if they were in a realtionship with that other person and the other person was just away for the night or something' but, I had the guilt of thinking 'gosh, what if DS really was extremely distressed, hyperventilating and wanting some reassurance?'. Ditto texts and calls at 5.45am/6.15am, was thinking, hmm, is this an emergency, but DS wakes up every day at 5.30am or earlier (muggins here used to be the one to get up with him every day when we were together) and can imagine that being in a new house will take a bit of getting used to as well. But this has given me another dose of clarity about ex, he obviously has so little respect for me that he cant stop and think 'ahhhh, Dee34 may still be asleep as it's 5.45am and DS is with me, or she may have company. I wont call now, but will explain to DS that his mummy is still sleeping and we can maybe try and call later on when she is awake'. No, I am there at his beck and call as and when he needs it.....And in the end, after all that, DS was not overly fussed to be speaking to me anyway (which I can deal with as know how pre-schoolers live in the 'moment' and out of sight can be very much out of mind).

Yes, not happy that I had to get drawn into their world of morning routines and breakfast scenes and interactions with DS as it does just make my imagination go into overdrive (and its already been through the mill this week - feel very emotionally and physically tired right now).

He did not leave a message after his last call at 8.10am and no email or text from him (thank goodness!) and no combative emails from me berating his actions (only as I know that would trigger a flurry of emails where I get called unreasonable, told to accept x, y or z, etc). So, feeling very glad that I didn't get drawn into that and his neediness.

100% ignoring, ignoring, ignoring......

oldwomaninashoe Thu 26-Jan-12 11:52:49

Dee, as the others said IGNORE
If you are really concerned 'phone nursery to find out how Ds is/was, do not respond to ex.

To second what Mrs Cynical said the other day, your ex is very fickle and falls in and out of love easily. You have this insight his new wife does not!

mummytime Thu 26-Jan-12 12:06:29

Don't answer the phone, you really do need to tell him he can only call you to sort out arrangements (or do this by email) or in a real emergency. He is perfectly capable of looking after normal everyday events.
If you DS woke at 5:30 and asked to speak to your ex, would you phone him? Of course not.
If one of my kids asks to speak to their father when he is away, we don't phone him, we wait until the next time he phones (usually); and we're not separated.
You not answering is normal. Him expecting you to is controlling, and he needs to get over it.

Dee34 Thu 26-Jan-12 12:35:29

Hi Mummytime - I did that on Tuesday. Sent him an email (very neutral as asked a friend to look over it). Said contact between us when he has DS should only be for an emergency situation (e.g. he should not call me to ask if I have packed any spare vests for DS! Or other trivial things). In a real emergency (as in going to the hospital etc), then ring, otherwise contact via email.

I also said no texts again (I had said this before Christmas as he got into the habit of dropping off DS, we would have words then he would go back home and start sending me off texts along usual 'get overyourself', 'move on', 'you are being unreasonable'....basically texts where I felt like some little girl being told off by her dad, and all done from the comfort of his home). I have not sent him a text at all. He regularly breaks this to tell me something (non-important) about DS or to ask me if he can speak to DS as some time other than the agreed time he can call.

I also said that I would be putting notebook in DS' nursery bag to record essential info about DS (not interested in hearing that they all went to a theme park, but if DS has suddenly developed a phobia of sitting on toilet or regressed wrt potty training, he could makea bullet point about that (though tbh, DS is at nursery 5 days a week, so nursery just as likely to pick up info and pass it on, so dont expect him to record much in here. May be more relevant when DS starts school?).

Also said:
- All comms should be about DS only
- He needs to prioritise his contact time with DS (he has changed contact every week since beginning of Jan due to being at some meeting or other....). I feel that he is taking the pee here and also when he cant make a certain night, it then needs us to re-engage to negotiate a different night etc.
- Also asked him 'if you have an queries for me that are not urgent, but about DS, please save/record these and let me know at a single point in time. I do not want to recieve multiple emails from you about DS' clothing'. As an example, he sent me some emails on Sunday asking for DS shoe size and trouser size...he had had DS overnight on the Saturday and bought him back at 11am and those emails were sent at 1pm-ish......I can get multiple emails on a single day asking for x, y or z.
- On handovers where we meet - please supply me with any information you consider important about DS at the time (e.g. he had a temp this morning, been off his food since last night etc). Please do this via the book, or quick verbal summary. What tends to happen is he will drop DS off, then text me (grr!) something he has forgotten to say or will completely forget, then I find out that DS has runny nappies and I then have to contact him to check what has happened etc.....

Did I miss anything? Though tbh, I can talk until I am blue in the face and he will decide whether to ignore or agree. I mean I sent him the above on Tuesday evening and it was ignored this morning. Guess all I can do is just keep up my end and hopefully he will get how things should work now? confused

springydaffs Thu 26-Jan-12 13:27:23

I don't think you can hope for him to 'get it' - his agenda is entirely different to yours and he has no intention of 'getting yours'.

you know what is and isn't important - you may have to draw up a list of categories (for yourself? maybe for him??) of levels of importance.

I say this because I drove the message home to stop endless comms (after copious comms along very similar lines to what you are being bombarded with) and he didn't let me know when dd was taken into hospital with suspected meningitis and kept overnight, crying repeatedly for me, during access time with him. HIs reason for not telling me was that I had said I 'didn't wish to be disturbed' (his words).

Please do't think your ex wouldn't be the same. imo he shows all the hallmarks, so draw up a list of categories, labelling them in various shades from urgent (phone call) to not important (email). He will probably still send copious comms and you may have to wade through endless emails I';m afraid. He is using ds as a means to mess with your head.

wellthatsdoneit Thu 26-Jan-12 13:29:01

You know what Dee, I think you might be on a hiding to nothing and might just have to accept that what you want to happen in respect of co-parenting your DS just isn't going to happen. If I recall correctly was there some issue of you both promising that DS would not be stuck in the car going to the station? As with the handover book, and the endless emails and calls, I think you're bashing your head on a brick wall - whatever you say, however you try to get him to be reasonable, and whatever he says in response - well, he's just going to do what he wants anyway isn't he? As the others have said I think you just need to ignore the phone calls, and the follow up reproachful emails. This is how he is. Whoever said he was offloading his guilt onto you has got it spot on. There's nothing you can do to make him change his way of (dys)functioning. If anything I would suggest to him that if he is not able to cope effectively with having DS without having to call you every five minutes and at 5am then perhaps you need to rethink overnight visits for the time being until your ex 'sorts himself out' and is able to prove he's capable of looking after DS without having his hand metaphorically held by you.

Dolly - how are you? I have been thinking of you being back in Oz after your holiday. I hope you are ok.

wellthatsdoneit Thu 26-Jan-12 13:30:50

Oh, and also Dee - I think your ex needs to realise that DS waking up in the middle of the night and missing you is the cold hard reality of your ex's decision to split up the family unit. If he tries to guilt you into answering the phone you simply say that this situation is of his making, not yours, and you have no control over it.

Patienceobtainsallthings Thu 26-Jan-12 14:37:00

Yep its all about choices and with those choices come consequences

springydaffs Thu 26-Jan-12 15:20:55

He's not 'up' for consequences though is he? He doesn't think consequences belong to him. He's god remember - god of the his world, forging a new world of his making where rules don't apply (to him, though every rule book is thrown at belongs to you).

McNaughty Thu 26-Jan-12 16:19:48

Just catching up here and a couple of things to add...

If I were Mrs New Wife, I might be getting a tad upset that my Knight in Shining Armour was calling, texting, thinking about his ex... well, quite a lot, in fact. I can't imagine that she would be happy with him being so involved with you still. Whose the one who can't get over the break up? Remind me?

Also, like Mummytime over the years, my DCs have been with either one of us for a few nights at a time due to business committments. We had an unwritten agreement that we would not call unless there was an emergency, or similar. It also wouldn't have been practical to make calls or text when you were in the middle of a toddler's strop.

The waking at all hours, crying for the absent parent when they were stressed was totally normal.

Everyone here is right. Your Ex will need to grow a pair and realise that this is called 'Parenting' and no amount of books or self confidence will prepare you for those early morning wake ups, week after week. And with New Wife expecting - it must be a joy to be in that house in the mornings at the moment - NOT!! smile

I agree that if the overnights are causing too much stress, keep your DS at home until you feel comfortable with him being away.

Xales Thu 26-Jan-12 17:08:57

haha look at you ex's life right now.

DS wakes at godawful o'clock.

Fall at my feet Dee ignores my rightiously important (because they are from me) texts and messages.

Hot new slim wife spends half hour vomiting copiously, eats a peice of dry toast, looks wan, waistline thickening, boobs too sensitive for him.

Son.whinges all the journey in the car irritating him and hot new wife.

Ex still ignores him.

What a wonderful start to the day grin

Patienceobtainsallthings Thu 26-Jan-12 17:56:37

So true Xales ,that post made me smile ,.He might not be up for consequences Springy but they will happen just the same .All we can do is look after ourselves and our kids.

springydaffs Thu 26-Jan-12 18:06:28

He definitely will be up for them! but what I mean is that there is no point reasoning with him with a 'consequences' argument. He just doesn't want to see it.

Patienceobtainsallthings Thu 26-Jan-12 18:08:22

Another line i had stuck on my fridge door Dee was

My ex was also a self entitled arse .
Distancing myself was the best gift i ever gave myself.
Took me a while to work it out though smile

Patienceobtainsallthings Thu 26-Jan-12 18:12:19

Your right Springy reasoning doesnt come into it ,they are on a different planet smile

McNaughty Thu 26-Jan-12 18:47:46

I love your snapshot Xales. That's my feelings about the other side of this story too.

I moved away from my family when I got married and it took time to adjust - I was only a few motorways away, not an ocean. We didn't have DCs for a while, but it was tremendously difficult to be away from everyone and settle into married life even although I wanted to be with my DH. We had to get to know one another and work out a way to live. I know its tempting to think its all hunky dory with Hot New Wife, but for most people, that amount of change in a short time will bring its own issues.

Keep on the IGNORE path Dee. Its so important that you don't get drawn into your Ex's life. You will soon be glad you have moved on from him, so keep your focus on you and your DS.

wellthatsdoneit Thu 26-Jan-12 19:03:27

God, the new wife is bonkers. BONKERS. How long has she been here - six months? She's not even past the ooh-all-this-novel-and-exciting bit yet, much less onto the christ-this-is-SHIT-and-i-want-to-go-home, and she may well never get to the oh-well-it-is-what-it-is-and-i-accept-it (I didn't), and there she is - knocked up, having to undergo all those transitions of moving across the atlantic, becoming a wife, becoming a mother, with no longstanding friends and no family and with no means of leaving if she wants to stay with the child, unless she has the foresight to leave before she actually gives birth. I just want to yell at her - run Forest, run!

And the ex - well, he just doesn't have a bounce of an idea of what he's doing full stop does he. Sounds like mine you know - yeah yeah, get her over here, she'll LOVE it and i'll tell her whatever she wants to hear and if she doesn't like it well i'll just dump her (but trap her here because of the child) and get someone less inconvenient.


wellthatsdoneit Thu 26-Jan-12 19:03:42

I'm now singing 'Bad Moon Rising'.

MajorB Thu 26-Jan-12 20:08:18

Hi Dee,

Long-time lurker here. Think you're doing really well with the latest revelations.

Was wondering if you'd considered asking your ex if he'd thought about going on a parenting course as in:

<ex calls as DS is crying &/or asking for mummy, Dee picks up phone>


"Hi Dee, it's ex, DS is crying, and I was wondering if you could speak to him?"

"Listen, <big sigh from Dee> and I'm saying this for your own good, at some point you're gong to have to learn how to parent your own child you know, have you considered taking a parenting class? You don't want to end up as one of those blokes with multiple kids, to multiple different women and unable to effectively parent any of them. You're a grown man, a husband, and a father of one, and soon-to-be-two kids, if you're struggling now, it isn't going to get any easier, and you can't always expect me to pick up your slack - I've got my own life to lead. Comfort your son, just as I do when you're not around, and I'll pick him up at the appointed time."

<Dee rolls over in bed to spoon with hot male model she picked up the night before>

Do you think that would work?

Dee34 Thu 26-Jan-12 21:26:37

Honestly - sounds cheesy, but, Mumsnet rocks smile

I have taken what has been written in the last few days (along with RL advice) and putting ignore stance into practice. Bar episode this morning (he didn't call again) I have tried to put ex completely out of my mind. A good friend came round last night and I think if I had been in a worse place, I would have spent the whole night re-hasing the injustice of the whole situations, bawling my eyes out.....instead, gave her a very quick update (she was shocked to hear news as she saw me a lot with ex and has always commented on how I did everything - a hell of a lot more things than she does at home/for her partner and she is a SAHM), asked her to toast me moving on and we cracked on talking about other things!

I think now, after the shock, it is more like 'okay then. Enjoy that life'. I think as suggested earlier, the hardest thing was that I would not be having a child. If I think if I would like to be having another child with ex, then the answer is most certainly no (though I am hugely thankful for having DS, despite who his dad is). I am living a life where I can see how ex can be when he falls out of love with someone (and honestly, it is a complete shock - a complete change from the old ex I knew who would have bent over backwards for me, or so I thought). Of course may change my mind once baby is here and DS is talking about his baby brother or sister, but will cross that bridge when I come to it if/when it happens

Springy - yes, I remember you mentioning about your DD going into hospital. That is something that I could easily see ex doing (it was vital that he contact me several times super early this morning and yet, when he was away with DS for NY, he could not phone me when he was supposed to as he was busy enjoying a dinner party and could not contact me to let me know DS was okay in the morning as his phone was charging he couldn't be arsed, yes, maybe I need to add a section to the notebook with colour codes explaining what constitutes as an emergency call etc.

Well/MajorB - wish I could say that to ex! But know what he will say 'dont flatter yourself, I was not calling for you. I was calling as DS was crying for you. You can choose not to speak to him when he is crying and upset etc etc'...basically, it would be spun back on me. Agree, I would never, have never called ex at silly o'clock just because DS is crying for him. A parenting course may come in hand for him, but he probably thinks he knows it all and better still knows the mistakes I made, so when new baby comes along, things will be perfect. Madness. But, hey, his madness!

Well - yes, we agreed that DS would not be dragged out to the train station when ex had him so he could drop off new wife. Though that was when they lived round here; it would have meant him bundling DS into the car, driving 20 or so mins to the train station, then coming back on himself and driving 25 mins or so back to take DS to nursery (nursery is near here, train station opposite end of the area). I didn't think it was fair to take DS out from say 7am-ish, drive all around when he didn't start nursery until 8am. Of course I dont have any say in this and I expect as she is now preggers and train station is near to their house, he could well be taking DS there on drop-offs. Not a huge problem I guess (in a choose your battles wisely kind of way) as long as DS doesn't then expect trips to the train station all the time en-route to nursery!

McNaughty - ah, but he spins it as the new wife is so wonderful and accommodating (apparently she is well aware of ex's daft suggestions for going a family away day - just me, him and DS - so she is also extremely confident of her position in ex's life to allow him to do this). And I suspect I am still portrayed as the un-appreciatve ex who nagged him to death, did this and that.....I know he is most probably spinning the lines about how their life is so perfect, so yes, best to let them carry on with their perfect life and I will forge out similar for DS and I. Interesting to read the perspectives of you and Well though...think thats how I would be and know a handful of friends who have moved here from various mainland European countries who have said the same about settling down and it taking time. But each to their own and all that.....

Xales - love that viewpoint, though forgot to add 'and in the meantime as new wife expands, Dee34 slims down and is now almost at pre-baby weight/dress size'. Stupid ex last week said to me 'you have dressed differently in the last year'. Er, I am wearing my OLD wardrobe from before I had DS (size 12) before I disappointed and 'balloned' to a size 18. Muppet. Will try and remember that view when I get the odd twinge of them having it all....

Patience - love that quote! Don't know where my old pile of inspirational stuff went after moving house, so need to start a new set.

MajorB - now that would be a turn up for the books! Ex obviously thinks that I cant get any better than him, hence calls at inappropriate times.....oh, if only!!

Dee34 Thu 26-Jan-12 21:37:32

Dolly - Happy Australia Day! Huge thanks and keep up the good work yourself in distancing yourself from ex. We definitely are better and do deserve better! Yes, it is a bit like a renewed sense of freedom, still all a bit new following recent past, but it does feel good.

Hope you and DS have a lovely meal out and agree with Patience about Lara Croft - sounds like wonderful therapy! Wish I could do the same....

springydaffs Thu 26-Jan-12 23:18:45

Something I read today that I thought may be apt in your situation/s. The writing style is a bit clunky but it's about effective ways to communicate with a narcissist and, as your ex’s behaviour/s seems to be well on the narcissism spectrum, it may come in handy:

Skills for dealing with attempts to intimidate can be divided into two areas, intrapersonal and interpersonal. Intrapersonally, it is essential not to reacte. This means that reactions of fear, impatience, or anger are not practical. In their place should be patience and curiosity. On an interpersonal level, responses and questions like, “that’s interesting; could you explain that?”; or, “I am not clear about that; would you please clarify (or elaborate)?"; or, “it seems like there is a contradiction in your logic.”

All of these can generate positive results in terms of reducing the control of the narcissistic forces. This is done through the non-reaction, which communicates, “you are not so powerful that you can manipulate me, or us, and distract us from the issue”. It is also done through the questions which communicate, “I/we are not afraid of you; we are not leaving the space/situation to your control alone; we will challenge you if necessary; you cannot win through intimidation or disinformation”

Think Dr Hawkins robot voice grin

It takes a bit of practise - I, for one, find it very difficult to delete erm.. passion from my voice and have to check an arch inflection..

springydaffs Thu 26-Jan-12 23:21:18

Hi Dolly <waves> Happy Australia Day [waves flags] and hope you're settling in well. [The weather helps, non?] xx

springydaffs Thu 26-Jan-12 23:25:29

btw - none of his effing business what you're wearing Dee. Would it be appropriate for your bank manager to comment on your apparel? No different here.

Hi Dee Darl

SO pleased that you are bouncing back and had a nice evening with your friend. So much of it is training your brain to reframe and reorder negative could have been/what if thoughts (of which I am the undisputed champion of the world) but sounds like you are doing pretty damn well. Also love Xales description and it did cross my mind too - as I think I said, no more hot sex and hot and cold running mini-breaks for a while. Oh dear, what a shame. I think she has definately made her bed (by setting up camp in yours) so I'm not being 'poor her' about it but I know from experience the strain of having a child away from family and friends even if you are madly in love (as I was). It is going to be tough for her and for your ex to deal with, however, 'easy' it may look from the outside looking in. I know its not nice to indulge in schadenfreude but hey we are only human ; )

Thanks everyone for the Australia Day wishes. Last year was just awful with me sitting around friends pool crying etc and this year we had no plans (tends to be very much a family day so a bit down) and was shitty weather but ended up being a lovely day. Ended up playing beach cricket with DS in rain, then impromptu lunch with girlfriend and her kids as her DH was working (own business), impromptu drinks with another girlfriend and her baby as her DH was sick, then a little too much wine with my lovely new tenant (art dealer who is relocating to Sydney to work in friend's gallery and between houses) chatting about stuff and a timely reminder that I am actually quite an interesting and pretty nice person all in all (I think the hard part of last year was doubting myself and wondering if I was indeed this awful miserable bitch of a person and that I deserved to be left and demonised by ex). I feel OK just right at the moment to be honest and beginning, like Dee mentioned, to realise that if this is the person he is when is not in love with someone anymore, it is not someone I would wish to be with. I had always given myself permission to write off 2011 and just BE and sit in whatever emotions I felt (wretched and miserable and often quite pathetic) but told myself on my return in 2012 it was time to reclaim the old Dolly who was actually quite fun to sit next to at a dinner party (vs too thin, too much wine, too many cigarettes, fragile, unhappy Valley of the Dolls-esque Dolly of late). Can't say I am there yet but I WANT to be. Am also organising more social things and have drinks out with two girlfriends tonight (bit tough as first w/end I haven't had DS since our lovely long trip).

Ex is being a pain, but a bit like Dee, right now I feel very disconnected by it all and don't want to - indeed choosing NOT to engage. Recent little episode is that before xmas was seeing child psychologist on my own with view to ex seeing her on his own then having mediated session about how better to communicate with each other in relation to our DS. I thought this would be a +ve thing for the NY and give us the opportunity to have to listen to each other and hopefully improve things without going off tangent (me included) as we would have a third party to bring us back to the point and hopefully help things.

Anyway, he now is not going to do it as he does not believe a child psychologist is the best person to talk to us about communicating re our son (errr. if not a child psychologist then who? the f'ing gardener? - anyway, politely asked him to email me ideas of who would be best suited) and that "our communication issues are rooted in a continued desire from you to not live in the present, look to the future and blame me for everything.". Old Dolly would have gone off a bit on this one but new Dolly replied saying "I will ignore the dig about all of our communications issues are down to 'a continued desire for (me) to not live in the present' and refrain from offering my perspective on the issues/problem as you would no doubt find it as inflammatory as I do and it will lead to a sprial of your fault/no your fault/no your fault type of thing which I believe we - certainly I - am seeking to avoid. Instead lets both try and work together for DS by seeing psychologist". Anyway, he won't but I tried and he is the person obstructing it for now real reason. Gold star for being restrained please ladies <awaits applause>

Real issue now is to sell house and get job as my mom job is now only a few hours a week as they are not busy but I feel up for it (child care nightmares aside) and much more mentally robust. I think a few Terry's chocolate oranges have made me a bit more physically robust too!

Hope everyone is doing OK, Well, I think of you often as I you are where I was 9 months or so ago and I found it just a horrendous time. Springy, I hope all is good with you and your family and Patience, you sound like you are in a good place and love to all others.


Patienceobtainsallthings Fri 27-Jan-12 10:15:48

So uplifting to read your post Dolly ,yeah i am in amuch more contented place these days..I have left the violent feelings of anger and bitterness behind now and i think re the lost relationship im just left with dissapointment.Sadness the kids lost out financially and emotionally but it really is
Accepting the things
I cannot change .........
No doubt i will lapse before the divorce is final,but I am slowly rebuilding my life and its amazing the changes that are occuring,all because I make better choices re what is in my best interests.Big hugs to everyone xxxx

ps Dee loving your positivity !!!!

Patienceobtainsallthings Fri 27-Jan-12 10:30:35

I honestly think for me I had a real turning point when i just accepted i was going to be doing the kids 24/7 with v little money from ex.I think a part of me just didnt believe the whole "walk away " scenario.Now ive got my head round it I can start to get on with my new life.But part of my recovery was definately setting high boundaries regarding exs behaviour towards me.He chose to walk his new path but my choice is not to be drawn into that world.

Dee34 Sat 28-Jan-12 11:10:59

On BB, so apologies for poor writing...

So, resolve is still strong. No contact from Thursday am to Friday pm, when he called for DS. Which was fine. Roll onto this morning, first face to face contact since bombshell of Tuesday...he starts of proceedings by asking me if I have any spare pants for DS. Give an incredulous look as he knows DS is potty training and had said that he had plenty of pants...but, ah, soon transpires that he actually means trousers (have had other Americanisms along the way, biscuits are now cookies etc etc). Anyway, he then goes. All fine. I then get an email at 10.05am asking me when DS' swimming lesson is. A perfectly fine request, but, he took DS to the exact same swimming lesson last Sat (though now thinking if he bothered as he can't be that forgetful? And as it was day after he moved house and esp dubious that it was a bit too much for him/them etc etc) and last Sat I had explained on the doorstep how DS still needed a swimming nappy for his lesson at (surprise, surprise) 10.15am. I had also sent an email in that week stating lesson time and for him to make sure he had made a note of it.

As he sent it at 10.05am and DS lesson is at 10.15am, I erred on side of caution in case he is just incredibly dumb and didn't want DS to miss his lesson....I feel for some reason that I shouldn't have bothered replying at all and just raised it at drop off tomorrow am?

I think he is being a lazy arse and still relying on me to do the bulk of the dull/boring parenting stuff, such as reminding him of times and dates etc??

Dee34 Sat 28-Jan-12 11:24:57

Sorry if I am over-analysing (please tell me if I am!). I just feel like I am having to re-learn the rules of engagement with this person who is now a stranger...

Springy - ex has long commented on how much weight I have lost and my clothes. I do give him short shrift or a withering look which usually shuts him up. I do not want any compliments from that man (and I always view them as suspect anyway). Like the ways to deal with a narcissism fuelled person.

Dolly - sorry to hear about interactions with nasty ex, but well done on keeping calm and carrying on!! Feel for you with the thoughts of Australia Day last year...but you are getting stronger (we all are) and Australia Day next year will be even better!!

Dee34 Sat 28-Jan-12 11:42:24

Got my answer - he was sat outside the swimming pool when he sent me his email. Obviously too much trouble to ask teachers, so relied on me instead as 'he had it in his mind that class was at 10am'. Even if he did forget, he needs to learn to remember surely....

Another lesson learnt! Will ignore future emails like this (thought he was dashing to get DS to his lesson, not twiddling his thumbs whilst waiting in his car).

Xales Sat 28-Jan-12 11:59:52

Ignore Ignore Ignore

He has a mobile. Most of them have a basic calander/appointment system. The posher ones complete diaries. Any appointments you need to share with him do the once. If he cannot put it in his diary or remember then that is his problem not yours.

If he calls you confirming details or going over them again, advise him to review your initial email/text. Do not give him the information again.

If your DS misses his swimming lesson that is your ex's fault not yours. Tough love I know as it is your son who misses out, however all the time you allow him to call you up over these things you are not disconnecting, you are enabling him to be a pathetic dad. How do you think he would cope if you were dead (not wishing!!!)? He would either have to remember or some other pathetic woman would have to support him.

Stop chasing him like with the school. Tell him the plan. Once. Do not listen to his questions/problems (unless they are reasonable) and refer him back to your original email/text/diary.

Do the same now with holidays/work trips abroad (funny how they seem to have stopped so much now his is married and OW is over here..) for the next 3 - 6 months. Once these dates are agreed send one email confirming them and then any questions/changes refer him to your original email (again acceptable allowances for emergencies etc but an old friend and drinks/a weekend away do not count as an emergency).

Be prepared for him not wanting his son around when new baby is born for a while. Also be prepared for your son to maybe regress a little when the baby comes. It happens in stable families let alone situations like yours!

Pathetic man starting to sound all cool and american with pants. How easily he is swayed...

I had something else to add but have forgotten while typing grin can't have been that important.


You are in South East right? Next time I pop that way to visit my mum for the weekend would you like me to leave my motorbike outside your house and jacket there to wind ex up grin

Epic post sorry!

springydaffs Sat 28-Jan-12 15:07:11

I must say I am astonished that no comms from Thursday am to Friday pm is seen as a triumph. I don’t mean to piss on your efforts Dee but I dread to think the level of comms previously – this is excessively excessive comms.

The intention is to keep you engaged. Not so much to get you to run around doing the dirty work but to keep you engaged. You have said what you want and he heard it, he just has no intention of complying, insists that you will be kept dangling on a piece of string (and subsequently derided for not ‘moving on’). He has no intention of you moving on.

I had to take out a restraining order on ex for precisely this: excessive comms. From the kids’ shoe sizes to he wanted the shoe polish (go to the shop/get your own). It was a drastic step but not after repeatedly saying over a long period of time that I did not want such high level comms, which he flat ignored. Perhaps you could draw up a list/chart of comms – dates, times – to see for yourself that this level of comms is excessive.

I wasn’t exaggerating when I said that ‘meaningful’ comms need only be eg once every three months as a rule. He’s heard you Dee, he just has no intention of complying (think of the things you have asked him not to do – he immediately goes right on doing it). Also, don’t relate to him on a personal level eg withering look. If he makes those comments, don’t reacte. Not a flicker, definitely not irritated – ignore it. I would limit f2f contact drastically, preferably to once a year? (something to aim for) – I appreciate that isn’t easy as eg f2f is necessitated during handover as ds is little. Is there any way you can not be in his physical presence? He wants to hurt you, and he knows how to do it sad

‘Having a word with him’ about eg personal comments, inappropriate relating is, in fact, relating to him personally. Don’t relate to him personally, your personal relationship is over, it’s business now. You’ve said all you need to say numerous times. Keep comms sparse, even about practical things. Have you done any boundaries work? Recommended, quite an eye-opener.

Had to laugh at the pants/trousers biscuits/cookies. He’s totally reinvented himself.

wellthatsdoneit Sat 28-Jan-12 16:31:58

I would have completely ignored the text/email about swimming. It is his responsibility when DS is in his care. Please don't pick up the pieces for him - you are not staff, and even if you bloody were it would be your time off! I think you really have to be tough with this one Dee even though you feel like DS might be the one losing out (eg missing a swimming lesson) I think it's the only way your ex will learn how to be responsible and actually take care of his son ON HIS OWN. I really wouldn't be replying to any texts or emails unless they were extremely serious. How's that list coming along?

The americanisms are rather telling in my opinion. Very contrived and seems to me to be a symptom of being in love with an idea of what something is or represents. Wonder what will happen to them once the American Dream wears off.

Patienceobtainsallthings Sat 28-Jan-12 18:08:42

Ah well done Dee ,i totally get what you mean about learning to communicate again with someone who was once ur partner and now a complete stranger .I guess thats the most difficult bit,trying to have a conversation with someone you once shared everything with and now you hardly recognise.I always think actions speak louder than words,keep on cutting back on the interaction,as time goes by and your life changes he will get used to it,but dont "enable " him,he has to learn to look after dc on his own and he aint goin to do that if hes textin u all the time.Hope you treat urself this weekend x

Patienceobtainsallthings Sat 28-Jan-12 20:03:22

Courage Does Not Always Roar
By Paula Fox

When life gets you down and the problems you face are certainly more than your share...
When you run out of strength and you want to give up because it's just too much to bear...

I want to remind you, my precious friend, that you have what it takes inside...
extraordinary courage that may not roar but it doesn't cower and hide

It's the quiet voice inside you that says, "Tomorrow I'll try again."
It's the courage to keep on going... to see things through to the end

You are not defined by this moment in time. You are not what has happened to you
It's the way you choose to respond that matters and what you decide to do

Courage is not the absence of fear, but a powerful choice we make...
the choice to move forward with purpose…regardless of what it takes

It's the courage that's found in ordinary women who are hereos in their own way,
exhibiting strength and fortitude in life's challenges every day...

Valiant woman of exceptional courage with enduring power to cope...
taking each problem one day at a time and never giving up hope.

We're encouraged by the faith of others to survive and overcome,
with the courage to say, "I may be down...but the battle is not done!"

For the woman of courage is a winner... regardless of what she loses
She displays amazing beauty and strength with the attitude she chooses

She gives herself the permission she feel disappointed or sad.
But then she empowers herself with focus on good things...not bad

Her story is one of gentle strength reminding us all once more...
Steel is sometimes covered in velvet and...courage doesn't always roar

Dee34 Sat 28-Jan-12 23:11:09

I get the control/refusal to comply now....

After a gap of some months*, today, ex sent me a photo of DS at play in his house a few hours after email about swimming. This photo was not requested and I did not acknowledge it. I did not stand on the doorstep this morning lamenting how I would miss DS that day/night which could have maybe been taken as a green light for ex to think about sending a photo (again, not that I would have wanted a photo and tbh, he is not that sensitive or emotionally attuned, well not to me anyway). So total mind games. I specifically ask for reduced comms and instead he ups the comms - for his own reasons. He didn't send me a single photo of DS when they were away for NY after he ballsed up calls - again, didn't ask for one and did not expect any, but would think if he were being genuine he would have sent one then (still wouldn't have acknowledged it though). Instead, DS hadn't been gone more than 6 hours by time of photo and he is coming back tomorrow morning.....

As said, didnt reply to him. I suspect he was trying to make me remember just how great a dad his is as I was out for the day.

Again, just feel drained again.......I definitely dont want to be his enabler, though realise I have been playing this role to his tune (damn).

Springy - yes, will need to be quite explicit and write down the whole boundaries and rules out for ex. So, really, I shouldn't even be engaging to re-inforce some of the things that we have agreed on previously. Just ignore? I have to admit, I do find that hard as it winds me today and the swimming lesson, I was initially of the mind that I would not reply and then thought, 'but, DS may miss his lesson'. Of course, get what Xales and Well are saying about ignoring it, but half of me did feel responsible for making sure DS made his lesson (even though he was not on my 'watch') and also felt majorly peed that I had told him the info on several occasions and it seemed that he had just simply forgotten or couldn't be bothered to remember. But yes, this is still engaging with him on a personal level, which is not good. And yes, I need to remember that I cannot assume responsibility for DS whilst he is with ex as will just exhaust myself.

Unfortunately, I cant avoid seeing him for handovers as no family nearby to facilitate this and it would be a bit much to ask a friend to come over a couple of times a week, esp as most are mums so would be busy with own family life at those particular times. Contact should be reduced soon though as doing the every other weekend access from Feb, so wont see him at all during the week (he was picking DS up on a Monday after nursery and taking him back to his house and then back to mine for bed; as he has now moved away, I expect he will either ask to drop this - unlikely - or ask to have DS overnight that night - most likely. This was partly borne from him being away on business a lot in the week and him not able to do drop-off on Tues am, but Xales is right, they have reduced a lot in last few months, still has UK trips, but overseas has not been for a while; overnight on Weds, so he then takes him to nursery on Thurs am and then again one day at the weekend - seeing him twice within space of a little over 24 hours....can see now that this is not good, but, for me, seeing DS every weekend was a huge coping mechanism for me when I started working full-time etc). But, yes, agree, a period of 36 hours with no manic comms is hardly cause for breaking out that bottle of champagne**. Hope it doesn't escalate to cause for a restraining order, but realise I can effect this a bit with my responses now.

Xales - yes, getting diary sorted out now, and will bear in mind what you have mentioned about agreeing dates for next 3-6 months. Think if I weren't here, new wife would have been picking up the flack (ex told me early on, last year that he knows he is lazy and she knows he is lazy and she doesn't mind! confused. Their business of course). Oh yes, motorbike parked outside would be fantastic! Only I am not in SE (cant say exactly where on here as would give too much away and I probably reveal lots on here anyway!)!

Well - the americanisms, I cant stand only because I dread DS coming back saying the same things. Silly I know and young children are endlessly impressionable. Will just have to grin and bear it if it does happen and correct him.

* actually, no, he sent me a photo of DS at his house opening some Christmas presents (must have been taken on Christmas Eve) on Christmas Day. No message, just the photo - decided best policy then was to continue to ignore (may remember, I have said umpteen times do not send me any photos and I do not request photos of DS). Did I mention before? I cant remember sometimes - though think I need to dig out that incident diary I started a while back...

** the same bottle that he bought back in Dec 2010 after getting physical with new wife - presented on the pretext of us opening it when we got pregnant with second baby......its quite a nice bottle, so will save it for a really happy occasion!

Dee34 Sat 28-Jan-12 23:14:27

Patience - wow, powerful and bang-on words there. Had a bit of a silent cry (a good cry! Just a tear or two) as it really resonated for me......

I have copied and pasted it to a word doc and will be putting it up on my fridge and another copy in my handbag to carry around with me.

Thank-you. x


Gosh he isn't making thing remotely easy for you is he. Again, excellent advise which I can't really add much more to. I think the key is to sort out the ground rules for access. My ex has my son every other weekend, Friday to Sunday afternoon and then every other Thursday overnight with an agreement to consider Friday to Monday morning when he begins school. I think it is tricky if your ex would want and be granted 50/50 custody but I can't imagine the 'scrappy' nature of a night her and a night there in the week is great for continuity for your DS and also exposes to you to seeing your ex every two seconds. Whilst there are many men that bugger off it is good for your DS that he wants to be involved with him but it does seem on his terms and to suit his working/personal life - you need to get the balance right to suit you and DS too. I'll PM you with some details of how ex and I arrived at our agreement which may or maynot be helpful.

On the emailing you about things/photos etc - not sure if this would be playing into his hands but perhaps it would be worth sending him an email along the lines of:-

Now we are officially separated and you have a new wife and new life, I feel that we need to begin the next phase of our life as co-parents but respecting the new boundaries that need to be drawn. I feel that over the last 12 months I have been supportive of you as possible as you adjust to being in sole care of DS and of course we both want the best for him. However, your constant emails about clothing sizes, times of activities, calls when DS is unsettled etc are beginning to raise question marks about your ability to be fully in charge of DS - either that or you do not respect the fact that we are no longer together and it is no longer my job to constantly advise and support you in relation to parenting. I would suggest that it becomes your responsibility from now on to be on top of timing and location of activities and for you to measure DS etc etc and not rely on my being constantly available to provide this help to you. We will of course continue to exchange and listen to important relevent information about the development and behaviour of our son for the rest of his life but we both need to take responsibility for the day to day details of his life. In a similar vein whilst you may be sending photos of DS enjoying himself with you when he is not with me, I find them a little instrusive and they serve as a reminder that I am not his parent in residence 100% of the time - something which I believe you know causes me great sadness and so would appreciate if you desist from sending them. etc etc......then if he continues to send photos/ask you inane questions you know that he is doing so 'on purpose' as you will have set out your case.....anyway just a thought and not sure it is the 'right' thing but maybe the other lovely ladies may have a view on this.

I'm looking forward to seeing DS after his first w/end away for a couple of months. Went out for drinks with friends Friday one of whom had spent Australia Day with ex (he invited himself post surfing).....she tells me has has put on about 5kgs (hah!) and she and other wives were sniggering as this time last year he was known as shirt off <name> as he got into great shape but never wore a shirt and was often admiring himself in windows etc....none of his friends have met OW either so she either can't face it or they are just going to wait until they believe everyone has forgotten that they are big cheaty pants and are open arms (not a bad strategy but equally not commanding a lot of respect apparently)....also found out he went to NY and Hawaii with her over xmas which I am a bit hmmmmphhh about as we talked about doing that trip and of course he has buckets of money to do it with hey ho...he has also pissed them all off apparently by falling out of contact now things with OW are going well again....

possibly as a result ended up going out for a drink with man in bar who asked me (wasn't going to but friends were like why not)...anyway slightly disastrous as when I got to other bar realised he was v. v. drunk and a bit up himself so left quite quickly - although not before a mini not really snog but touching of lips at bar (I was a bit tipsy but not drunk)...he was also very very minor TV actor but recognisable (where we live is very like hamptons are to NY so lots of holiday folk up here during holidays)...anyway ran off when realised being an idiot but still, there are adventures to be had and felt a bit rock and roll for 5 seconds, not bad for a 41 year old ; ) ....

other than that cleaned my car for the first time ever so feeling a bit I am woman hear me roar...aware that makes me sound spoiled/pathetic but my house is up a cliff so climbing down 60 stairs with vacuum, hose, power cable and running up and down turning things on honestly seemed beyond me last year....everything in fact seemed beyond me tbh so feeling a bit more in charge of things....again, aware it sounds a teensy thing but beginning to think I was actually a bit depressed as honestly going food shopping was a stretch at times and now am feeling like I can anything for myself....

lots of love one and all
manual labour dolly x

MsPav Sun 29-Jan-12 16:39:58

I wouldn't send the above. Whilst it is an excellent basis for agreeing ground rules, we already know that this has been done again and again. He agrees and then ignores.

It is simply an issue of control, XP still wants to be in a relationshp with OP in which he calls the shots, despite having a new wife himself. Issues around DS are simply the mechanism he uses.

Also, and I know this from bitter experience. You cannot make your XP a better parent than he is. He is what he is, and you can no longer cover/prop him up. Your DS will be fine, and if he is let down, that is NOT your responsibility.

Ignore, Ignore, Ignore!

cenicienta Sun 29-Jan-12 17:23:26

I agree with Downunder's suggestion.

It's not the end of the world if DS misses a swimming lesson / wears clothes that are too big or small for him / is told at 5am that Mummy is sleeping so he can't speak to her.

Dee I'm saying this as a huge supporter of you and the way you've moved forward... you need to start to let go of DS a little bit more. Let go of the details. It really is the only way ex will learn to take responsibility.

As long as you're there as a safety net ex will never really learn to do the job of parenting, and in the end DS will suffer.

As Dolly suggests, reiterate the fact that his constant harassment of you only makes you doubt his ability to parent and that is of great concern to you.

I would go a step further and stop email contact completely. The notebook should be quite sufficient for communicating important info about DS.

Do you have a friend whom ex could call in an emergency, who could then easily contact you? That would take away the need for him to phone / text you, and also make him think twice about whether it is an emergency.

You've come an awful long way but this guy is still controlling you. Get tough!

mrscynical Sun 29-Jan-12 19:18:37

Dee, you really need to view this situation from outside if that is at all possible.

Look on it as though you are in a film. This current cinematic release is a Swedish, gloom and doom introspective look into the lives of unhappy adults and the decisions made by each of them which makes their misery and selfishness even more tragic. You are the supporting actress and the ‘stars’ of this saga are your husband and his current wife. Your character is really quite depressing and, although I know you don't mean to, you are playing it really well. The critics are saying 'but no woman would really act like this surely?', 'I just wanted to shake the ex-wife, she seemed to enjoy taking the bait of the ex-husband', ' why didn't the ex-wife just cut him off and put an end to the show-off dramas of the leading man?'.

Don’t you want to be the leading lady in a funny, quirky, feel-good rom-com? If you do, then it could be a possibility in less time than you think. However, as I have stated before, only YOU can make it happen.

Patienceobtainsallthings Sun 29-Jan-12 19:51:42

Another reason for making the break Dee is ex may start telling you his wife's top parenting tips once she becomes a mum.
F%ck goin thru that ....

Very easy for him to turn any communication between you into him being a victim,wife the rescuer and you the persecutor.For him any communication is a "reward" even if its negative attention.

Just remember you are in charge ,you have the right to not reply.He isnt ready to let go........
you are.I would start today,everyday you ignore unnecessary messages,cross it off on your calendar.You can choose to change your own behaviour thats the good bit,he has no control over you anymore,enjoy your freedom.

springydaffs Sun 29-Jan-12 23:24:57

Wow, you've had some tough posts Dee. I'm sorry about mine - you took it well. And I meant it well!

I suspect you may feel that my take on your situation is coloured by my experiences with an horrifically controlling ex, that I may be projecting my experiences onto yours. I wish in one way that I could say that were true but imo he has all the hallmarks of a controlling abuser. What concerns me is that you are as much in his web as ever - it is agonising to read your posts, to read the latest stunt he has pulled on you, to hear you and others calling him 'forgetful' or 'lazy' etc. He is none of these: he's wide awake and knows what he is doing.

I have held back (believe it or not) because I know how much you are hurting and I didn't want to make it worse PLUS I hoped it wasn't what it looked like, hoped that here was a man who was lost and didn't know what he was doing.. but imo he is stitching you up and, also imo, things are going to get worse. He's on to too good a thing and won't let you go easily. He is weaving a web around you every moment and by continuing to relate to him as though he were a normal person - a normal person who has lost their way somewhat - then imo yu're not getting the sum of the man. You hear it often on MN, the phrase run for the hills and it could not be more apt for you. He is a thoroughly bad lot - actually, frightening, calculated. As long as you are exposed to him he will have power over you.

Please notice that he gives you the opposite of what you ask for. You ask him not to send the photos, he sends the photos - relentlessly, over and over; you ask him to keep in contact when ds is with him, he doesn't keep in contact. This is someone who had beaten you down with a campaign of calls, emails, comments, emotional manipulation (re 'if only I had known you loved me I wouldn't have strayed' [subtext, it's your fault]; all that shit just before he went off to get married...) - he's torturing you and it's agony to watch; and the confusion you feel - so much stronger now since he stepped up his campaign. H'es got you on a spit roast and gets off on hurting you.

Read Men Who Hate Women and Women Who Love Them - Susan Forward (I think?). He is using his wife to torture you - and, later on, he will use you to torture his wife (if he isn't already). He gets off on it, the sad, sick bastard. He has groomed you, is grooming his wife and, very sadly, he will groom your son. How do I know that? have a guess.

Planetofthegrapes Mon 30-Jan-12 03:57:05

Yes, Dolly wrote a great email, but based on past form he's going to do exactly the opposite of what you ask, because he's a sh*t.

She's destined to be the most "awesome mom" and worse "cool step-mom" in the whole world.

I'm sorry that you and your son have got at least 15 more years, if not a lifetime, of this sh*t

Planetofthegrapes Mon 30-Jan-12 04:07:57

Sorry, I was a tad blunt.

The strange thing is that I feel sorry for miss awesome too, I think in a few years time, when you are further out of his orbit, it will be clear that you've had a lucky escape.

Hi All

Slightly off piste to recent discussions in the course of some research I came across a US woman who has written a book about women who are suddenly left. It is UNCANNILY accurate and I can tick every single one. Its like men join a secret cult when they decide to leave and exhibit exactly the same behaviour - couldn't not post as was like reading my (recent) life story......

Ten Hallmarks of Wife Abandonment Syndrome

1. Prior to the separation, the husband had seemed to be an attentive, engaged spouse, looked upon by his wife as honest and trustworthy.

2. The husband had never indicated that he was unhappy in the marriage or thinking of leaving, and the wife believed herself to be in a secure relationship.

3. By the time he reveals his feelings to his wife, the end of the marriage is already a fait accompli and the husband moves out quickly.

4. The husband typically blurts out the news that the marriage is over "out-of-the-blue" in the middle of a mundane domestic conversation.

5. Reasons given for his decision are nonsensical, exaggerated, trivial or fraudulent.

6. The husband’s behavior changes radically, feeling to his wife that he has become a cruel and vindictive stranger.

7. The husband exhibits no remorse; rather, anger is directed toward his wife and he may describe himself as the victim.

8. In most cases, the husband is having an affair and moves in directly with his girlfriend.

9. The husband makes no attempt to help his wife, either financially or emotionally, as if all positive regard for her has been extinguished.

10. Systematically devaluing the marriage, the husband redefines what had previously been an agreed-upon view of the couple's joint history.

Patienceobtainsallthings Mon 30-Jan-12 09:18:29

Yep that about sums it up Dolly.My ex will always be the "victim" in this .

wellthatsdoneit Mon 30-Jan-12 10:02:12

Oh yes - that rings true here Dolly. My ex is continuing to be an absolute shit although he would never admit that he is angry with me. He is angry, it's quite clear, but he just substitutes the word 'disappointed' instead and doesn't clock on that this is incredulous on so many more levels. I guess we are uncomfortable reminders of their shabby behaviour and we haven't done the decent thing by handing over our children and all the finances on a plate and then disappear quietly into the night (acceptable), or just plain drop off the face of the planet (preferable).

Mine has just asked for a 'power of attorney' from me so he can 'sell the house'.


Just like that - as if he was asking for a cup of sugar. I honestly think he thinks I will give it to him too. He is THAT detached from reality. No doubt he will play the victim card to his (now) nearest and dearest when I won't. Boo hoo.

Dee - your ex is clearly equally psychotic. He clearly cannot understand why you don't want to live in the house next door to him and be best friends with his new wife and go on shopping trips with her and have girly nights out with white wine spritzers and all go on holiday together. He just CANNOT understand it and he will never understand it - BECAUSE HE'S NOT NORMAL! I agree with others who have said that whilst Dolly's email is very articulate and to the point, there's little point in sending it. Past track record indicates that he will smile and nod and then ignore it, or smile and nod and do the opposite. Whichever it is he is still keeping you engaged.

WELL. I have just fallen off my sofa. Is he on crack?

Assuming your house is in both of your names why on earth would he believe you would consent to giving him power of attorney? Is it because the house is overseas and you can't travel to sign papers?

If so (as I know from experience when I thought we were selling the house last year when I was overseas) when and if you get an offer that you both agree on (when the split of the proceeds from the house sale is legally agreed) you can transfer limited power of attorney (only for things pertaining to the house sale) to effect the sale and division of assets (which needs to be water tight) but obviously not before hand as you are clearly aware.

Good luck - sounds like you are going have to some 'interesting' conversations....

wellthatsdoneit Mon 30-Jan-12 10:34:30

There is no reason why I can't travel to his country to sign any papers - I am just unwilling to do so at the moment because we haven't yet agreed about how everything is to be divided up. I think he thinks he can sell it by 'stealth' by 'craftily' getting a power of attorney from me.

Yes dear readers, he really is that 'confused'. He is a sociopath, but fortunately for me not a terribly bright one. Sigh.

I expect more ranting and frothing at the mouth from him. My ex will never forgive me for the way he's treated me (I don't want to trivialise the holocaust but someone once said this about the nazis and jews didn't they).

Dee34 Mon 30-Jan-12 10:59:29

Hi – certainly been an eyeopener. And given me lots of things to think about.

I think that I now can see clearly where I have been going wrong. I don’t want to over-analyse, but, if I asked myself honestly, I probably was of the frame of mind that Springy mentioned. I did think that ex was a lost man who had lost his way/didn’t know what he was doing. I think I have enabled this stance some way from day one – by effectively laying main blame with ex’s dad and his influence; by pandering to his inane requests for information and attempts to contact etc. Even up until yesterday if pushed to discuss ex and pregnancy, I would have talked my way into the viewpoint that ex must have been talked into having a baby so soon, how it must have been new wife’s decision and he just fell into it (I haven’t been discussing this and have no intention to, so please don’t worry on that score. Just thinking about how I would have relayed things and processed stuff). I hope that things are not as bad as predicted, though know that many have lived the reality of this, but I now know that ex is very clearly in charge of his full faculties and is very aware of each and every decision he makes. There is no fallback, there is no evil dad muttering things into his ears, there is no deranged new wife forcing him into having a baby with her. He had freedom of choice and those were his choices. And more importantly, I need to completely get away and block these choices. I shouldn’t care if he chooses to have a baby every single year from now on in or if they live to a ripe old age together. I now need to work towards this point. So, yes, I see that the complete block and detachment is key.

I agree he is not normal to not understand the effect of some of his actions and decisions, and I now need to exchange the ‘not normal’ view from one where I am feeling that he is not normal as in not himself and ‘ahh, he has gone mad and is headed for a breakdown as he never used to act/say/think like this’ and instead into one where he is not normal and this is himself (poor grammar, sorry), the real him that is now in place.

I hope that he is not grooming DS (fills me with terror), but then I am reminded of things he has said to me, and which I hope he doesn’t go around repeating to DS in the safety of his own home.

I don’t think I could cope with 15 more years of this – though can guess that this will lessen as time goes on and even more so as I start to steel myself, remove myself from his orbit and interactions are less and less and have no effect on me.

God, it’s just so, so draining at times.

countingto10 Mon 30-Jan-12 11:19:23

Have you actually met/talked to his new wife Dee ?

Just wondering if you could maybe meet her for a coffee/informal chat as she is going to play a big part in your DS's life and maybe you need to cultivate some sort of relationship with her ? And maybe (in the long run) deal with her wrt your DS re arranging times of access etc, anything re school etc. Maybe, just maybe, she will be easier to deal with especially if your ex is doing a number on her too hmm. You would have to very careful, clever, whatever not to play into anybody's hand but it might be the way to go - more than one way to skin a rabbit and all that.

Just a thought.......

wellthatsdoneit Mon 30-Jan-12 11:48:56

Hi Dee - I just realised when I was doing the ironing - I hope you didn't think I was shouting at you when I used capitals about your ex not being normal - I was just trying to emphasise the point. If anything I was shouting at your ex!

I can understand the dilemma. When ex told me about his 'new' girlfriend at christmas and I chucked him out of the house, he STILL wanted to do things 'as a family' the next day as 'ds would like that'.* I told him that, no, I wouldn't be doing 'family' things the next day as in the circumstances it just wasn't normal. DS may have loved the idea of it, but not the reality of his mum being miserable and struggling to cope in the company of a sociopath and bully. The upsetting reality is that there's going to be enough dysfuction for DS to cope with as he grows up and he doesn't need to be exposed to anymore bizarre situations unnecessarily.

It is tough - but our ex's are using the children to have it all their own way and to offload their guilt onto us. You won't be suffering it for the next 15 years because we are evolving creatures and you won't be the same person you are now in 15 years - you won't even be the same person you are now tomorrow.

*The reality is that the ex can't bear his own company and needs constant validation to prop him up, even if it's me - the hated ex wife (it's as if he's worried that if he's left alone without interaction with other humans his very existence will be snuffed out, and actually, if I had an empty little head like his I'd probably be a bit worried too).

Dee34 Mon 30-Jan-12 11:53:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

countingto10 Mon 30-Jan-12 12:14:44

I think it is very hard and probably too emotional atm but it may help to think of him feeding her bullsh*t too. My DH admitted after his affair that he told OW everything she wanted to hear and manipulated her as much as he did me.

Remember his new wife has a onesided view of you and your relationship with ex, he has told her everything about you etc etc. Maybe in the future when there has been enough time elapsed you may feel meeting for coffee will let her see that you are not mad/bad or whatever he has said and sometimes we just have to be the bigger person for a DC's sake. If this marriage succeeds then when your DS gets married in future, has children etc you will have to meet her to make it easier for your DS IYSWIM.

It is very hard for you as it is so raw still but with time and space it may become easier.

FWIW, my DH took my DCs to OW's house without me knowing even that there was an OW so I know the pain involved and the pain involved in all the deceit of an affair etc.

It has been 3 yrs now for me and I can look on the OW as having issues of her own and know that my DH was so good at lies and deceit that we were both duped by him (though she did know he was married with 4DSs hmm).

It's interesting that he didn't/doesn't want you two to meet - worried you would both compare notes hmm.

Good luck with it all anyway.

Dee34 Mon 30-Jan-12 12:32:08

I dont think I could meet her now - definitely not at this stage. Lots has gone on in the background; I was forbidden to meet her when she first arrived here, even though ex introduced DS to her after 3 days. I think I went into it all at the time, ex wrote 'No, you cannot meet her. That is very werid. etc etc'. This was all in a an email. They later decreed that I could indeed meet her as ex wanted to do something with DS and I said no. By that time,I did not want to meet her as DS had been in her company for x months/weeks during his time with his dad (sorry, vague on the detail as cant remember it all now).

She aso threatened to call the police on me in my own home (she was in SF) when she overhead ex and I arguing in Jan 2010 (we were arguing because they were talking to each other from the family home on the phone. He had agreed to phone her away from the house and then obviously couldn't be botehred, a week or so later after agreeing to this....we were living under the same roof as he had nowhere else to go and didn't want to pay for a hotel - yes, I have enabled this man from day one).

I am also 'hmm' about the influence she has over ex - though still not forgetting that ex is in charge of his own actions. Back when she threatened the phone call, ex had come back home (he had stormed out after I tried to grab the phone) agreed to talk, but only on the condition that OW had told him that he had to phone her every 15mins - during our talk. Told him to stick that idea at which he did call her and tell her that he was indeed okay. Bearing in mind, ex and I have never had a fall down/shout in your face argument, never had any physical fights etc the fact that he rolled over and did as he was told has stuck with me and made me super wary of any interaction with her/them together. I have also had the 'if people dont want to support us, then we are happy not to have them as friends as they are not true friends' party line.

I dont think she has to encorach on certain aspects of DS' life though does she? Esp re access and school. I know friends who have stepchildren and they pretty much butt out (for want of another expression) on that sort of stuff.......but get what you mean about not having to engage with ex and also her influence being constant for DS now.

Long winded, but I dont think I physically or mentally could do that just other people meet the OW/new wife/partner?

Dee34 Mon 30-Jan-12 12:38:31

Yes, had already thought about that, in terms of DS getting married in the future etc. I get about being the bigger person and would love to do this for DS, but sometimes, and just now in particular, I am thinking why is it always me.....though guess I have enabled ex so that it is always me....

Self pitying rant is out into the ether by the way and not directed at anyone btw.....

springydaffs Mon 30-Jan-12 12:54:51

obviously couldn't be botehred

No, he did it on purpose to hurt you. YOu set a boundary, he purposefully flaunted a refusal to abide by that boundary. YOur boundary was a very reasonable one, remember. She threatened to call the police because she was up to here with the shit he had told her about you - she believed every word of it.

I didn't meet the OW (though my situation is different, in that I left the marriage and 'OW' came along later). She was totally brainwashed about me - and still is to this day. I have still never met her approx 10 years later - not properly anyway. ex died before the spell broke about him for her (bad sentence) ie she was still in the honeymoon period. Rabid eating disorder (^one of^ the clear symptoms of being with an abuser) but still loved up with the psycho. She never got to work through to the other side ie her life didn't become so unmanageable and she hadn't got to the stage where she lost her mind enough to start to question him.

I honestly don't and didn't see the point in meeting her. She was brainwashed to the hilt about me and there was nothing I could do or say that would in any way break the lies. I wish I had severely limited the kids' exposure to her, and them; but I was doing the decent thing: kids need their fathers etc. Kids don't need a psychopath for a father, I don't care what anybody says; though, very sadly, I have had to learn that the hard way. Which is why my posts are so urgent!

springydaffs Mon 30-Jan-12 13:11:32

He will probably interpret your sudden withdrawal from him as jealousy. Don't worry about it! In fact, don't worry about one single thing he thinks or says, or she thinks and says. don't worry about saving face - there are more important things at stake here.

springydaffs Mon 30-Jan-12 13:27:46

btw don't write out the boundaries and rules for him! Do it for you and then enact it, dont give him any clues. You could write out eg a (short) list of what consitutes an emergency and word it as: 'Please contact me if the following are happening' etc. Don't say the words 'Don't contact me if they aren't' - though he will very probably get around your conclusive list somehow. Don't flag up that you're setting a boundary - slip it into an email as a btw. Don't come out all guns blazing because he has plenty of ire he can draw on and will use it. He will never feel he has hurt you enough, will always go for hurting you more: don't give him any clues about how to hurt you.

wellthatsdoneit Mon 30-Jan-12 14:27:46

Why does he feel that he can never hurt her enough do you think? I don't understand it. He wanted to go, and he's gone. He's got what he wanted.

I wouldn't want to meet the OW either Dee. I think at the moment it's not something you need to even think about unless you genuinely want to.

Dee34 Mon 30-Jan-12 18:14:41

Because I am to blame for everything. He has told me this directly - I am to blame in that because I didn't give him enough x, y or z, he had to look elsewhere, find someone else, someone who really appreciated it, thought he was fantastic. Nothing about his own failings or how he carried on as happy as Larry and normal before revealing all. I dont believe a word he says of course - stopped believing all that some time ago. I think because I dont agree with his world view it doesn't sit right with him.....he obviously needs to believe that life was so terrible, how he was so wronged, to make the present valid, understand that bit. He had me doubting a lot of my own memories in the early days when he would say things like 'dont you think it was terrible back when we were together?' or 'dont you remember x,y or z'...Nope I didn't and can see it's all gaslighting etc (I ditched my rose tinted glasses a long time ago and never claimed that he, me or us were 100% perfect, but we did have a fantastic time together up until xmas (which I got the blame for and not a word was uttered about his folks, even though I had begged him if we could stay in our own home. But he refused and I know why......wonder if I had had a wonderful time there what the excuse would have been then. Actually, I dont wonder as not interested anymore)....

Suspect that he will think it is jealously with me now taking action and withdrawing. As you say, tough, dont care what he thinks anymore......

McNaughty Mon 30-Jan-12 19:37:13

You know it still takes my breath away how some people have the audacity to openly blame the other person for 100% of their problems. Its the categorical... 'I've done NOTHING' wrong and am only thinking of you...' Really? Your Ex is not worth your energy any more.

I remember so well in the beginning Dee when he was messing with your head about your most recent past then he kept tugging on your soul every so often when he said that he wished it was all different and he missed you. It was all an act. It was designed to make him look as though he'd second thoughts and all the time he was getting off on having two women at his side. Worst thing was that he made you start to doubt your skills as a mother. That was unacceptable in the extreme having taken any stability away from your little family without giving you the dignity of a response.

BUT... I am delighted to read your recent posts. You have turned a page - its wonderful to see. I don't doubt the pain of the journey so far and how much determination you have to have reached this stage.

I do agree that your distancing should be done subtely, no drama or openings for him to shaft you. Just a grim determination that you call the shots in your own life and he can go swivel when it doesn't suit.

Be one step ahead of him, don't remind him of his duties. He either wants to be a good father or not and No.1 on that list is respecting his DS's mother. |Any time you feel downed by him, its because he does not respect you and for your DS's sake, make your Ex raise his game to your level. He either comes with you on this parenting journey, or he'll have to survive in your wake.

Your strength is amazing and I am sure that every time you look at your DS you know it is worth it. He will respect you for it. You are the best role model for him, so keep on this track and you'll have the best DS in the world. x

Dee34 Tue 31-Jan-12 18:57:11

Proper access/contact (never sure of the right word!) has now been agreed with ex and I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. Will go down from current levels of seeing him/interacting with him 4 times a week to once every fortnight (and even that may reduce as DS starts school and ex can do Mon am drop-off, though he didn't seem that keen when I mentioned that!).

Only bugbear is that whilst discussing holiday weeks (yes, had to do f2f meeting as couldn't bear idea of a million emails ping ponging and we would still be at battle now if had gone down that route), he mentioned that he wanted to take DS away to US for thanksgiving. Think someone warned me to be prepared for that. Ummm, wasn't when he mentioned it today. Esp as he pushed it under the guise of seeing friends and family (her friends and family that is, who ex even admits he has seen only a couple of times). Know that he can take DS wherever and to see whoever, but I still cant believe that he has no empathy to say, 'hmmm, maybe not a good idea to suggest this just now' etc etc. Actually, yes, switched on Dee34 can believe it. There is also the very big fact that DS has plenty of relatives in the UK that he doesn't see enough of (i.e. ex's own family). Reminded ex of this and he said 'yes, yes, that's true' as if it hadn't crossed his mind. Fully expect him to come back asking again nearer the time, but when he first mentioned it, I did hope/guess that this would fall in school term time and put the kaboosh on that idea. Have no problem with ex and new wife taking DS abroad for a holiday (and I am the one who suggested he put some dates forward now to go in the diary so that these are known and agreed upfront), but, honestly, I dont trust him not to go there and then one day just disappear, esp as he would have his wife and children with him. Probably over-working my imagination, but ex's actions have been so impulsive compared to the steady person I used to know, which is what niggles at the back of my mind.....I just dont trust him...though know that is no basis for my saying no.

Apparently Thanksgiving is the concession to her having to spend every Christmas and NY here forever and eternity (ex blurted this out before I could stop him - did not ask! Maybe he wanted me to feel sorry for her? Or feel empathy for her and the sacrifice she has made...etc etc).

But, all in all a good outcome. I let go of some of the smaller details remembering the adage about choosing my battles.

I was able to breathe through the meeting and ping an elasticated hair-band on my wrist when things started to rise in me. Amazing what you can do if you really try (says she, wishing she had done this from day 1!). Came away with no fury embedded in me and was able to skip about the rest of the day's work with no worry. Felt like I was swimming for once as opposed to the drowning/weighed down feeling I have been experiencing.

McNaughty - several RL people have said the same about distancing/withdrawing myself from ex's orbit (as has been said by others on the thread as well). I.e. don't go in with a big announcement - just carry on and do the actions and he will soon get the message. I felt like the door to that part of my life was closed now. No more nonsense interaction (fuelled from either side), minimal interaction and all necessary interaction focused on DS. Still a way to go before it all becomes second nature, but am feeling really positive now. Thanks for the warming words; yes, I am constantly grateful for DS and determined to do the best for him (even if that is hard on me at times). Thanks!

Dee34 Tue 31-Jan-12 19:10:49

Phew - Thanksgiving does fall over school term-time, so can present that to ex if he asks again. Hence, I can now avoid looking like the crazed/over-bearing/psycho ex who cant get over losing ex and move on, blah, blah smile

Maybe he will think about a week between now and school starting in Sept 2012 to take DS on a holiday/see his relatives instead.....

enuffalready Tue 31-Jan-12 19:29:21

You what, Dee, it would be over my dead body that a trip abroad would happen. Seriously, he wouldn't even have to disappear would he? If his NW was still pregnant it'd be a problem with the pregnancy that would mean they - including DS - couldn't come back, or if she's had the baby it'd be a problem with the baby.

Given that he's treated you with nothing but contempt, has basically got form for taking time to plan ways to screw you over, is a complete liar and thinks the world revolves around him, I would take care if I was you. In fact, the way he's been so reasonable about access should tell you he's planning something - he ALWAYS is when he's nice.

Just say no. Refuse to hand over DS's passport. Just don't take the risk. Doesn't matter if you look crazy/psycho - rather that than having to live without DS.

Still think you're pretty darn amazing, btw.

wellthatsdoneit Tue 31-Jan-12 20:29:32

I'm so pleased you have got access more established Dee - I think it will make a huge difference to you. Long may the skippy light feeling continue!

springydaffs Tue 31-Jan-12 20:43:52

It's not you who is the crazed/over-bearing/psycho ex, let's get that clear!

I really really wouldn't care what he thinks or what it 'looks like'. HOpefully, once you settle into never meeting him ever again unless you have to [once in a blue moon] then you will settle into not caring what he thinks, not factoring what he thinks into your decisions.

Personally? no way would I let ds go abroad with him since you didn't ask

Xales Tue 31-Jan-12 20:48:21

Remember Dee this is none of your business.

What ever concessions she/he has made regarding Christmas and New Year are nothing to do with you and none of your business. What ever sacrifices she has made to be with her husband are her business (more fool her).

You have asked nothing of her, it is nothing to do with you and it is none of your business. See how this works the other way grin

If you get to the stage where it is Christmas with you then Christmas with his dad then there is nothing to stop them going away a week before Christmas and coming back like Boxing Day. Your son wouldn't know the difference...

Can you fit in a visit with a specialist solicitor to find out where you stand with preventing him from taking him to the USA for your peace of mind?

Dee34 Tue 31-Jan-12 21:28:13

Hmmmm Xales - he mentioned all that as in 'no, listen' (in response to my raised eyebrows when he landed the TG request in my lap) 'we have agreed to spend TG in the US so as to stay here for Xmas/NY'. All said pretty quickly and I did say after he said it 'sorry, not interested in that really as it's none of my business'; also said when he asked me if I would be willing to give up some of my time if/when his folks came down for a visit (the gp's who saw DS for two visits in the whole of last year, April 2011 and then Dec 2011). My reply, 'no, we have to both work around our access time and ditto for family. Though special circumstances can be discussed'. Totally agree, it's none of my business, but ex dropped it into the conversation....but, arse, I can see what is happening now, getting sucked back into the machinations and thinking about the minute of their lives.....!

Not wanting to overanalyse, I think he is saying that he will stay here for Xmas/NY, so DS gets to spend that time with ex's parents and cousins in the UK, but yes, see what you mean about how he could just take him anyway (though I have DS' passport). I know I keep saying it, but I just dont trust him to not do something impulsive. I doubt I have any legal grounding on this though, so will just need to sit and wait and see what happens/if he makes the request. I also thought that if we had parental responsibility then he would need to get my permission to take DS to x, y or z country abroad and ditto, I would need to get his permission?

Springy - yes, was being sarky (a bit!)! You are totally right, I shouldn't care what he thinks and am getting there!

Well - thanks, yes, I am kicking myself thinking why didn't I do this ages ago, but better late than never and really, I think the pregnancy has kicked me into action. If it hadn't been happening, am sure the protracted access/swapping whenever would have dragged on for a good few more months....silver lining and all that I guess.

enuff - thanks. I hadn't thought too much about him being reasonable meaning that he is up to something, though that is usual practice, yes.... Hmmm, the TG request did come after we had reached agreement, maybe that is what he was angling for?? But yes, I will be on my guard, though I do now feel more empowered to say no and mean it and not be persuaded because ex wants this or that.....

wellthatsdoneit Tue 31-Jan-12 23:51:54

I'm not a hundred percent but this is what I think based on recent experience (I'm assuming you both have parental responsibility, which is the usual state of affairs unless it's been specifically removed through the courts):

- each of you needs the others consent to take your ds out of the country, even for a holiday. If one of you has a residency order you may take ds out of the country for a holiday for up to 4 weeks without obtaining the other parent's consent
- in reality I think your ex most likely wouldn't be questioned by british border officials when leaving the country, but he might be questioned on arriving in the states (they're big on illegal immigration aren't they?) in which case he should have a letter of consent with you every time he travels.
- if he did abduct your ds (take him out of the country without your consent) or 'unlawfully retain' him (not come back after a holiday) present circumstances mean your ds would most certainly be considered to be habitually resident in the UK and as such you could bring an application for child abduction under the hague convention (to which the UK and US are both signatories). You would get legal aid for this (no matter the merits of your case or how rich you are). From what I recall I think the US has a pretty good track record of adhering to the HC, hearing the case fairly quickly and returning children to their country of habitual residence (presuming that is you know where to find them - the US is a big place), although I think that might differ from state to state. In the UK all hague convention cases are heard in the high court in london because that's where the judges with the expertise in it are, but I know it's not like that in many other countries.
- there are defences to the HC, but not many. Consent is one of them, but (in england anyway) the defences are interpreted narrowly by the courts.
- I'm not sure about prohibited steps orders (ie an order specifically preventing him from doing something) - I think you might need to show that there is a genuine cause for concern of abduction, and I think it might only pertain to a specific trip
- prevention is absolutely better than cure!

In short, I think it's not something he would find very easy to do 'impulsively' in the US, especially as your ds doesn't have US nationality/passport. They'd have to disappear from the system which I assume would take some planning and forethought. Nevertheless, your ex is bonkers and the US is a big place so when and if the time does come that you feel comfortable with him taking your ds out of the country (anywhere, not just the US), I'd make damn sure you have a strongly worded letter of consent (or perhaps even a deed so that he signs it too) which sets out the background facts that you are the primary caregiver, ds' country of habitual residence is the UK, and that you are giving your consent for ds to travel with his father to X country for a holiday between the dates of Y and Z after which he will return to the UK permanently. That way if your ex does claim you gave consent you have something that says "uh, yes, for a fricking HOLIDAY you donkey". You can couch it to him in terms that he's going to need it for border control and that you're doing him a favour to make his life easier (if and when you agree you can even say something like "Oh for GOD'S SAKE, now I'm going to have to get a bloody letter of consent sorted out for you too. Well I expect you to pay for it at the very least. Sigh, grumble, complain etc). I'd get this drafted by a suitably experienced solicitor the first time and then you can use it as a template for any further trips. I'd also make sure that it's very clear by your continuing circumstances and living arrangements that you are the primary caregiver and that ds' primary place of residence is with you. All the more reason to get those access arrangements in writing.

I know a vair vair good solicitor who accepts legal aid and also does a free half hour initial consultation! I bloody love her and I owe her a huge debt of gratitude. She's not in your neck of the woods (but she's not in mine either and it doesn't make any difference - we do everything by phone and email). You probably don't need her now but feel free to PM if you want her details.

Incidentally, does anyone know if one parent can apply for a passport for a dc without the other parent's knowledge/consent?

springydaffs Wed 01-Feb-12 02:14:18

I'm not absolutely certain that one parent can't, well <not very helpful>

<also double negative> re I wonder if one parent can without the other's consent.

I think I posted before that I contacted the UK border authorities who had a notice to stop him if he tried to take the children out of the country. They contacted me annually to ask if I wanted the bar to be removed.

I also caught my ex applying for passports for his home country, which is not part of the hague convention. it wouldn't surprise me if they tried to get ds an american passport (if that were at all possible...)

I also agree that the States is a big place and wouldn't risk it. You don't know where her family live, you know nothing about her, no addresses etc.

LASTLY: Dee, please please (to the power of 10) don't let him know what you are thinking, what you are planning, what you are considering ie don't have open convos with him. eg don['t say to him "you wouldn't get an american passport for ds would you? I'm worried you will". He is not to be trusted so keep your world/thoughts/concerns totally tight. Remember the E word - Enemy.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about the sweetening to prepare for landing the punch! If he is being nice to you, he is planning something horrible sad

springydaffs Wed 01-Feb-12 02:17:27

re don't be a blabber mouth!

It has occurred to me that by nailing down the contact arrangements, you are effectively ds's resident parent, ex is ds's non-resident parent. That puts you in a much stronger position. The way things were before, he could have argued that your roles were equal. I'd get it set in stone legally though, it's not like he's ever true to his word eh.

mummytime Wed 01-Feb-12 07:31:56
wellthatsdoneit Wed 01-Feb-12 08:25:34

Springdaffs - would it be ok if I PM'd you about something?

wellthatsdoneit Wed 01-Feb-12 08:30:44

Those were very good links mummytime.

Dee - this is down the road somewhat and will hopefully never be necessary, but if you go to they also have something called an 'abuction pack' which you can prepare and have to hand to give to the police etc should anything happen.

Dee34 Wed 01-Feb-12 08:57:06

Morning - thanks for the sterling advice about travel and access.

I will definitely keep those pages bookmarked mummytime. I will have DS' passport with me, so ex would have to let me know his intentions (esp as we have agreed on set holiday weeks), from which I can respond armed with the above info. Defo right Springy- wont reveal anything to him to forewarn him or allow him to up his game.....I know some people will say 'well, he can do what he likes with DS when DS has him' and I agree. If her friends and family were visiting in the UK and ex had DS for a weekend when they were here, then I would swallow (hard) and send DS off for the weekend. It's just this mad inplusive stuff that is bugging me (combined with his alleged highs and lows - even if false and mentiond to curry favour, I have this in an email, so could be used as 'evidence' possibly). With some planning, he could transfer money over there, buy a house, cash in on his savings and live quite nicely. And as pointed out above, I know nothing about her, bar her name and the state she is originally from. Ex's parents have never met her family/been there, so doubt they would have contact details for her family either.

I think that the request for TG was a dummy one (though still keeping my wits about me and treating it as a real request). Similar to the request to take DS on a 'holiday' when he gave me 2 weeks notice (or less), which turned out to be their wedding/honeymooon. If he had really wanted to take him back then, he would have asked to take him back when they booked their holiday. When I said no, he backed down straight away, so more of a 'look, I asked, did my bit and it was Dee34 who said no' (not that I care what he thinks). Ditto here, reckon he can now say 'look, I asked and Dee34 said no' without ever really intending to have taken DS there....though he is crazy in love so wouldn't put anything past him right now and his madness to create and cultivate a new perfect family unit.

Should I get the contact agreement formalised now, or after a while when the agreement has been in place and it is the 'norm'? Should I just write it up, get ex to sign and me to sign and then a third person to sign (and date obviously). Or should I go via solicitors (costly?!).

Thanks hugely as always, Dx

McNaughty Wed 01-Feb-12 09:13:29

Dee, I love your attitude. You've found this strength from within yourself and its positive to read your recent posts. Hang on in there, you are finally getting a step ahead. smile

A quick comment about finalising contact agreements. I know very little about the legal side of things, but I seuugest that you seriously consider going down the solicitor route. I know the cost is scary, but I think that you want to make sure that any agreements you put in place are watertight. You don't want to give him wriggle room. I know this from one of my relatives who said that when the chance came to finally gain control of the situtation, they wanted to make sure that it was final and legal.

You know how unpredictable your Ex can be and he will do all in his power to hang on to this shiny, new relationship. Armed with a year of his areshole-ish behaviour, don't take any risks. Nail him re: your DS so you don't have any worries about what he might do. Tell him what he can do. End of.

Take care x

McNaughty Wed 01-Feb-12 09:16:29


Hi Darl

I think I may have mentioned this before but if you like I can scan/send my contact agreement to you as an outline. It also mentions 'default' access for mothers day/fathers day/birthday/xmas/amount of time son can miss school without agreement for holidays/amount of time ex can have him/notice required for holiday etc.

Obviously I hope that in time we will email and agree outside of the base agreement BUT I think it is useful to have in case of conflict/unexpected developments to fall back on if things get tough.

I'm having a bit of a hmmm day as ex has asked to extend the easter w/end (its his w/end) by 3 nights - this will be 5 nights - the longest i've ever been away from son. Happy for son he actually wants to take him but bizarely a bit upset by it even though I know it was coming and it will be nice for son (assume they are going with OW and her son).....that said currently considering selling engagement ring and going on yoga retreat in Bali for a week and getting ex to have him for longer...thoughts...would be financially fairly irresponsible but part of me thinks fuck it......

lots of love to all.

springydaffs Wed 01-Feb-12 11:14:06

Definitely worth nailing it down legally - actually, worth its weight in gold tbf, a necessity , despite cost. I would sidle up to it iiwy Dee; take advice and get the bare bones sorted out first without letting him know what you are doing or that you are doing it legally. Maybe you could wait until his eye is off the ball with the new baby before making it legally formal? You know him and when the best time would be to strike. Do you play poker? wink

Heard about a site on which you can sell gifts etc from former lovers/spouses - don 't know the addy but the woman who set it up is Annabell Acton - google? I'm thinking of selling my rings too Dolly and you can't get a decent price for them on the high street. I'd also be watching him that he doesn't gradually erm incorporate ds into a new happy family ... (I know I sound nuts but ime you can't be too careful and better to be safe than sorry, he's already got you up the creek without a paddle sad). ime in both your situations, get a legal cast iron boundary in place and don't blur the boundaries. Your ex's aren't to be trusted.

Of course, well smile <wibbles>

mummytime Wed 01-Feb-12 11:24:46

I would go to a solicitor to get a water tight agreement (but follow the advice on choosing the best time to get him to sign it).
Do remember that the norm for taking kids out of school in the UK is never, and a lot of schools have a policy of only agreeing an absence (other than medical reasons) only in exceptional circumstances, and that doesn't include a family wedding as I discovered. So you would be perfectly reasonable to have no "taking out of school" written into any agreement.

TG is a much bigger family celebration in the US than Christmas BTW, I wonder if your DH realises that, just as Hogmanay is to at least some Scots.

Patienceobtainsallthings Wed 01-Feb-12 12:37:27

Desperately need yoga break in Bali ,wow that idea has just blown my head off.Def go if you can ,nourish yourself Dolly you sooooo deserve it.

I would say no and keepsaying no to TG,as not only will ds be at school but he will bein the middle of doing all the school christmas things. From making cards to practicing for the Navitiy Play.

wellthatsdoneit Wed 01-Feb-12 13:42:45

Hmmm. Am just thinking of an american friend of mine (male) who lived overseas and had taken his kids back to america for a visit last year. When he was leaving the US he got questioned by the authorities and they very nearly prevented him from getting on the flight. In fact he had to buy a return ticket back to the US to pacify them, even though he and the kids didn't actually live there and were in fact going out of america home

Even more reason for you and your ex to both sign a document (when the time comes) which indicates where DS's place of habitual residence is. If he refuses to sign it then you know you've got trouble ahead and he can't be trusted.

wellthatsdoneit Wed 01-Feb-12 13:43:09

Oh, have PM'd you too saffy smile

wellthatsdoneit Wed 01-Feb-12 13:44:35

And Dolly - get thee to a Balinese yoga retreat! There's not a doctor in the land who wouldn't deem it medically necessary.

<3 post mentalism>

springydaffs Wed 01-Feb-12 15:24:05

Just found a letter and doc which may be of relevance to yous re passports, border authorities etc. It is from info received in 2003 - things may well have changed.

It is a long document but mentions 'lodging a caveat' (facilitated through a Court Order) to prevent passport facilities being granted, and the letter is signed by a Caveat Officer at a UK Passport Service agency.

it mentions a 'port precautions scheme' to prevent unlawful and permanent removal of children abroad, which is (was) not operated through the Passport Agency but through the local police; stating that if the possibility of removal is real or imminent that the police may agree to circulate the child/rens' names to port departure points in england, NI, Wales, Scotland.

there is mention of a booklet entitled "Child Abduction", produced by the Lord Chancellor's Dept - obtainable from The Lord Chancellor's Dept, Foreign and Commonwealth Office - or from a passport agency.

This info could well be out of date entirely but eg terms like Caveat Officer etc may be helpful.

wellthatsdoneit Wed 01-Feb-12 17:58:32

That's very useful for me too - thank you springydaffs.

Sorry to impinge on dee's thread. Is anyone there? Just found out via my brother that my ex puts pictures of him and his girlfriend up on facebook. I am so so devastated and heartbroken and destroyed. Obviously I know she exists but such an extent, and to trumpet her loudly on the internet, when he must realise he still has my family members on there. It's soul destroyed. I feel bereft. I don't feel like I will ever get over this.

wellthatsdoneit Wed 01-Feb-12 17:59:47

I feel like I'm disintegrating. It's been pretty bad the last couple of days because ex has been very bullying in terms of the children etc. I'm not sure I can cope for much longer.

Patienceobtainsallthings Wed 01-Feb-12 19:30:18

im here well if you want a chat or pm me and dump out anything if u need too

Patienceobtainsallthings Wed 01-Feb-12 19:51:18

Just remember the opposite of respect is abuse
They have no shame
He will not spare your feelings
You have to work on your own self care.
He will continue to try and push your buttons.
Detatch as much as you can , my exs actions still leave me shocked but at least i dont have to live in that world and neither do my kids .

McNaughty Wed 01-Feb-12 20:31:52

Well sounds as if you feel you've been knocked by the FB information and the 'normality' of it all. Its as though you didn't exist. It also feels so final.

But you do exist, and you have the right to be treated with respect and the time you were together (including your DCs) is part of that. At no point do you have to do his bidding just because he wants everything to fit into his revised view of the world.

Patience is right. You have to take care of yourself, even if its just getting through today. Rest when you can and do feel pushed into making any decisions until you are ready. You are not compelled to go at his pace or take his bullying. Slowly gather your strength, in your own time and take small steps towards being detached from him. It will get better, but for now focus on yourself and things that need to be done. The rest will wait.

wellthatsdoneit Wed 01-Feb-12 21:11:26

I feel like I'm going to puke.

Dee34 Wed 01-Feb-12 21:11:58

Well - sorry to hear how you are feeling and also about your ex posting photos on FB. I agree with McNaughty I imagine with his big reveal online, it does feel final and you are left questioning a lot about is natural (I think) so please don't beat yourself up about it or think that these feelings are not valid because he has gone/moved on. They are valid, they are real and you can very much feel them (and have to, to work through them).

McNaughty and Patience have summed it up perfectly - really, really make sure that you take good care of yourself. Take it as it comes and don't feel like you have to rush anything (esp. if your ex is bullying you). I know it feels like you are in a bad place with this bombshell, but you will (in your own time and gradually) work your way out of this and into a better place. Focus on re-gaining your physical and emotional strength - you have shown such amazing courage given what you have been through and the recent legal battles (that alone would knock most people for six, regardless of outcome).

Totally agree with Patience about not sparing your feelings and having no shame. Totally ignore and distance yourself from him (again, know this is easier said than done based on my own experience).

PM if you feel up to it. Take care, x

Patienceobtainsallthings Wed 01-Feb-12 21:24:23

Its the shock well,i tried rescue remedies but crying was the only thing that really helped the soreness,usually curled up foetal,it will pass babe and we are here to hold your hand xxxxxx

wellthatsdoneit Wed 01-Feb-12 21:24:37

I feel like I'm right back where I was at the end of May. I don't know if I've told you this Dee - but I started to read your thread as I was sitting outside waiting to see a solicitor in his country for the first time. He had shoved off for the week after telling me it wasn't working and left me alone with the children. All the high schools were graduating and it was a beautiful early summer day and all the students were out in the streets celebrating. I have never felt so surreal and outside of life. I remember starting to read your thread. Everything was so raw and it still is now. I can't see that I am ever going to recover. I feel like I'm in hell.

wellthatsdoneit Wed 01-Feb-12 21:32:46

Thank you, all. I had about an hour there where I was strangely serene and able to put the kids to bed. Now it's back and hitting like a truck. I can't bear this grief.

Patienceobtainsallthings Wed 01-Feb-12 22:07:21

Its a tough time ,
I remember pouring out my heart to my counsellor ,
told him all the bad stuff about ex and he just looked up across the room and said ,"And you want to be with this guy why?"
I just kept repeating that ........over and over
This too shall pass Well and you will have a better day soon ,take care x

WELL. So sorry you are having such a shitty week. The feeling of being erased from someone's life and the feeling that they have no regard for your feelings anymore when you trusted them with your life, with your children's life is just awful and truly physically painful.

It is impossible to believe that you will work through the pain and in time in will lessen. When I was at my darkest (and I still have those moments) I wanted to yell out at those who were saying, its time, you will work through this, you are strong. I felt like shouting from the roof tops - no, you don't get it, I feel like I am disappearing under the weight of guilt, and I will never ever feel whole again, I will never recover from this. But you know what. As much as its impossible to believe it, you will my darling you will. You won't be the same but you will find a way to get past this and hopefully thrive. It is the old cliche of time but its early days and even when I hit the two year mark later this year it won't be enough. Its going to be up and down and it won't be linear - you will be up and down the snakes and ladders board but keep posting when you slide down. I do and I will. Also don't feel pressure to be 'ok' and 'move on'. You will do it in your own time. There is no timetable.

In the meantime, maybe you could take the pain of your exH's monumentally crass behaviour by posting on his FB to 'use' in your thinking about him - a bit like Patience was saying about her therapist. Do you want to be with someone who very very shortly after a separation which he knows has broken your heart and changed your world forever has such little emotional intelligence or residual respect for you that he posts pictures of his new girlfriend in a public forum that your close family and friends can see? Even if he had such low regard to you, surely he should have enough awareness that it will cause close friends and family to lose [further] respect for him as I can't imagine anyone would think this is acceptable behaviour from a grown man who has recently split from the mother of his children. Try and use it as 'evidence' that he is - now certainly - not the man that is deserving of your love.

HUGE kiss darling and love to everyone. I am racking my brains for things to sell to do Bali....I'm also a bit 'down' thinking of son off camping with OW and her son at Easter. Two years ago at Easter my H and I were in the City for a w/end, I was pregnant (with lost baby) and had a beautiful Easter Egg hunt on the roof terrace of the hotel for son. I thought we had a lovely lovely family and have a gorgeous photos of us entitled 'The Ralston Family' with H's hand on my stomach. Turns out he was bitterly resentful of not going on surf trip and was already planning his exit 3 months later. Arse.


Patienceobtainsallthings Thu 02-Feb-12 09:11:25

I knew the relationship was over the firsr time we split nov 09 ,but only in my head ,my heart still loved him.I knew it was over and i was better off without him but i guess i just wanted my best friend back and the pain to go away.I think the mind lets u accept the reality of the situation gradually to protect us x

Dee34 Thu 02-Feb-12 09:45:09

Morning Well - how are you feeling today? Sent you a PM last night. Hope you were able to get some rest. x

newhorizon Thu 02-Feb-12 09:50:18

Thanks Dee. All is good with DD and me. She had a magical xmas after everything she's been through.

Just been reading over the thread. Can he not just get on with it, instead of running to you everytime he can't handle ds. I'd love to hear what his 'new wife' has to say about it. He made his bed, now let him lie in it.

Absolute no no for DS to travel to US. I certainly would not let my dd out of my sight, you don't know him anymore.

Take care

Dee34 Thu 02-Feb-12 10:05:42

Re getting contact legally agreed - think you are all right about timing here. And defo wont let him know that I am seeking this. Will have to think about how to couch this to him, even when picking the ideal time, though am guessing by then that he will either have stepped up to the plate and organised his work and social life around having DS on his set nights or he will just keep on doing what he has been doing for the last year......ultimately, it's about DS having stability and routine in the light of the mass of changes he has had to roll with (though he has done well).

Springy - thanks for the info on travel abroad. Funnily enough, I dont mind (she says through gritted teeth, smiling through the pain) ex say taking DS on holiday to France etc as know he (ex) would never want to take up residence there. Whereas, the US is a whole unknown on so many levels. Esp with ex now talking about visiting their friends and family (only mention this as one of his parting shots was that we always did things with my friends - which was partly true, but not for want of getting ex to organise things - I used to cajole him into organising a poker night round ours for his mates, but he was too bloody lazy to even do that!...seems to me like same sh*t, different faces - eventually.....and so wonder if he will flip one day and decide to make some other grand gesture to new wife, such as 'hey, lets just get lost in the US', esp as she is used to picking up and moving off). But shouldn't let my imagination get away with me, and wont obsess too much on this....will start to look at legalising the contact agreement and also what I can do about travel abroad.

I think if TG falls at the same time every year, then DS will always be in school (am sure they have thought about what will happen when their own child/ren come of school age), so that will be that. I dont think it's essential that DS be taken out of school to go to the US to celebrate an American holiday for his stepmums benefit. Different case if they did a weeknight/weekend celebration here in the UK (again, through gritted teeth!). Hadn't realised TG was such a big thing.....ohhh, just realised something about timing of ex and new wife's wedding/holiday! Detach and ignore!

Dolly - go for the Bali break! I would! I need to think of what to do when ex does take DS away on holiday for a week, but also need to juggle the whole school holidays/annual leave thing. I think I may go for broke and treat myself to some time away when they are away and then see if I can use parental leave for another time with DS

wellthatsdoneit Thu 02-Feb-12 13:02:46

Just a quick post to thank you all for the messages of support. I am still here but didn't get any sleep last night. Just feeling very numb and tired so will respond properly a bit later.

Dee - I'd be cautious about a trip anywhere overseas - once he's out of the country he can use that as a launch pad to go to the US. i would always make sure you see a lawyer before he goes overseas anywhere for the first time and your bases are covered.


hello ladies - WELL, I joined you in the sleeplessness nights last night, after a return to crazyland in my world. I'm actually quite thrown by it as I now have real concerns again about ex H core stability.

To cut a long story short, we don't really interact v. much outside of email and once a fortnight when ex drops off son but we live up lots of stairs so I come half way down and son walks up.

I have been trying to be businesslike and non emotional in communications as stated. So yesterday when ex was meant to be picking up son I sent him text saying we are having swim trial for new swim school at XYZ (nearer to him than my house so no issue there) can you pick up DS there in carpark or if you want to look at school his assessment is 15 mins earlier. He said he would try and make it - so far so good.

Ex comes into assessment a little late - all OK - teachers talks to us about DS swimming - I introduce ex - all OK.

I ask ex to dress DS whilst I see which availability they have - we also had brief chat about DS not progressing that well at old swim school and is he ok with this one (background: ex was nearly commonwealth swimmer and its a big thing to him in terms of techniques and approaches - beyond wanting DS to swim and the school be nearish my home I have no real view) - yes he is - all OK.

We all go outside and I get car seat to transfer (his has broken and is being repaired). It starts to rain so we shelter and talk about he can do this day is this OK etc. I am being relatively businesslike chatty and talked again about I like this school, I don't think the other one was as good etc. He interupts very rudely and says in the horrible voice that I have heard so many times 'You've said that already, I'm not here to hear you repeat yourself like you always do, get on with it.' - it doesn't sounds so bad written down but it was really rude and nasty and given we had had 5-10 mins of 'normal-ish' interaction (so much so I was thinking, ok new year, maybe we can make this co-parenting work). Instead of reacting - remember DS was there - I said - I'm going to go now, I'll email you details, by DS have a nice time at Daddy's. Possibly a bit abrupt but I didn't want to get into anything and also irritated that he had been rude.

Anyway. Cue crazyness. ex suddenly went ballistic and starting saying very aggressively 'Finish what you were going to say, finish your sentance, finish your sentace' I said in a fairly bemused (genuine) way, ex I said I'll email you have a nice time I'm going home now....ex then stands in front of door of my car, folds arms and says, 'you are not going anywhere until you finish your sentance' I said ex you are being ridiculous, please remember DS is here I'm leaving now. Ex is yelling in my face (not shouting but loud agressive voice' - 'Finish it, Finish it, Finish it'. I say really quite calmly, don't do this in front of DS I'm leaving. He would not move from the driver door so I went in passenger door and shunted over...he opened door and put his body in it and said you are not leaving etc etc...all the time repeating 'Finish your sentence, Finish your sentence'....DS is now getting upset so I get of car, so come on DS i'll help you in your car seet. DS says stop being naughty to DH and me. I say oh daddy isn't fighting with mummy he is just being a sillypants, you are a sillypants some times, and I most certainly am a sillypants sometimes, remember I got very grumpy with you when you did xyz,- everyone gets cross but he isn't cross anymore thinking that DS saying this - I was crouching down talking to DS - would bring him to his senses. No. he carried on despite DS being upset. I did get in car and drove off - he ran after it gesturing that somethign was wrong . my iphone headphones (in pocket as going running) were sticking out of door - i opened door to get them in and he started up again. he as frothing at them mouth. I eventually said I was calling his parents to talk to him and not immediately, but did let me shut door and drive off.

I was really really shaken as although we have had a few dreadful rows they were all ages ago when things were raw and about 'important' things - money, OW, etc - not me not finishing a sentence. I think he realised he had crossed a line as 5 mins later he sent an email to me but copying in his father saying essentially - you are unreasonable, however I recognise that I should not have tried to 'compel' you to finish your sentence and walked away, here are examples (in this instance fictional) of you being unreasonable.

SO. I am now back to thinking that he either has mental health or anger management issues or is on drugs or something as I cannot believe he coudl get so angry so quickly about something so inconsequential. It has made me really uneasy - I hated leaving DS with him after being so angry but honestly didn't want to make a bad situation worse and was a bit shocked TBH.

Anyway, my long story short, seems to be a long story long so sorry! Am going to get ex to drop DS off at local cafe every other Sunday to meet me from now on as I dont' want him here. If he can't control himself in a car park of a swim school then I dont' want to feel like I did yesterday in my own home. Its is all a bit shit really - i dont' want to 'overeact' as I genuinely want no more drama in my life but its made me really worried for his general stability.

enuffalready Fri 03-Feb-12 06:15:20

Awww, Dolly, didn't want you to go unanswered. I genuinely think that your Ex is behaving like that because he can quite clearly see he's losing control over you. You haven't risen to any bait he's thrown your way so he's upping the ante to get you back in his orbit.

You should feel very proud of yourself for having done that and for how you handled today's incident. For what it's worth, I think you should email back - CC in FIL - stating that no matter what fictious issue he has with you can he please restrain himself from behaving like that in front of DS again because his behaviour clearly upset DS.

Say you're not going to engage in a war of words, your priority is - and will always be - DS's welfare and his behaviour today was unacceptable in those terms.

The email won't change a thing, but it will get in writing to a third party that he behaved very badly. You may need this 'evidence' one day. Obviously don't then reply to any other emails as that's not detaching.

Big hugs to you, you've done so well.

wellthatsdoneit Fri 03-Feb-12 09:56:24

Absolutely agree with enuffalready. Email him and cc FIL outlining the unacceptability of his behaviour (particularly in front of DS). I would tell him that you will not tolerate abuse and if it is repeated in the future then you will not be willing to have direct contact with him (I'm not far off saying this to my ex if his emails continue to be so aggressive). I'd also say that you don't intend to discuss this further and are now treating the matter at an end (because you don't want to get into a spat about it as that just means more engagement with the arse, not less). All email or face to face contact can be done through PIL or other suitable friends/relatives if necessary.

You don't need this Dolly. He is a knobjockey of the highest order. It's very tough because unfortunately we can't just cut them out completely because of the children, but we have to try and minimise exposure to them as much as possible. You don't deserve to be treated like that and your son doesn't need to grow up with your ex's current behaviour as a role model in how to treat other people/women/mother of his children. You need to protect yourself.

Sending you big cybernet and unmumsnetty hugs - please do something nice for yourself this evening xx

Patienceobtainsallthings Fri 03-Feb-12 10:17:36

Dolly this is abuse.
You did so well ,he cant behave like this infront of ds and he has absolutely no right to talk to you like this.He flipped it.He has to take responsibility for that,i would have this logged with my sol if it happened to me,but dont know how it all works in oz.He wouldnt let u get in your own car,who the hell does he think he is.V frightening plus ds witnessed everything.He cannot talk to anyone else like this or they would call the police,just cos u have a child together doesnt mean he has any right to abuse you.How fucking dare he ,he has as much right not to let me in my car ie NO RIGHT are right to do handovers in public places,if he is anything like mine his life aint that great he is stressed out and fucked up his life,and somehow that means he thinks he has the right to talk to me like a piece of shit.Eh .....jog on sunshine ,your mess your stress im doing alright thanks so piss off and learn some manners.
Hope your ok Dolly ,these incidents with my ex used to really upset me,big hugs and get thee to Bali xxxxx

Patienceobtainsallthings Fri 03-Feb-12 10:20:15

waves to well hope u can do something nice for yourself this weekend x

Patienceobtainsallthings Fri 03-Feb-12 10:24:18

My good news is my divorce might be complete by the Spring.
Ex has managed to sink even deeper into the sewer i found out this week.But that is why we split..........incompatable.....
I am fucking amazing
He is an arse

wellthatsdoneit Fri 03-Feb-12 10:56:23

<waves back to Patience>

Yes, you are fucking amazing!

Dolly - if you're going to email him I wouldn't put anything that could be inflammatory. Just be matter of fact - say it made you feel frightened and you regard it as abusive. I don't expect he will admit to responsibility for his behaviour which is why I think that you need to tell him that you don't intend to discuss it further. This is not about how he perceived the incident - it's about how YOU perceived it and how it made YOU feel. If you felt frightened, shaken, abused, then your feelings are valid and you don't need to give him any opportunity to imply that your feelings are not valid/important/valuable. I suspect that this has happened because, much to his annoyance, you continue to exist. Well that's just too bad for him - you deserve to exist, you are not going ANYWHERE (not least without your son), and you deserve to be treated like a human being. So he can go and fuck himself and the goat he came in on. (Don't put that last bit thought).


springydaffs Fri 03-Feb-12 11:22:36

Awful. Yes this is abuse. I also would log this with your solicitor. I went to the Freedom Programme this week and happen to have the handout on the table as I'm typing: the title is 'The dominator is his name, controlling women is his game'. I've been trying to work out which category his behaviour fits into: King of the Castle, the Jailer, The Bully, the Headworker, the Liar... it seems to fit into them all. You can do the Freedom Programme online Dolly - I think Dee has done it that way? It helps to get your head straight about behaviour like this. He's got you stuck in a foreign country, trapped for the forseeable, seriously limits your movements - you'd think that was enough! but no, he has to control the minutiae of your life. Ex also blocked my car into my drive once in a similar way, kids present. It simply is not good enough.

I'm also a bit hmm that FIL gets cc'd into comms - how very bizarre

I agree that he knows he is losing control of you and has upped the ante; lost control because he can no longer control you. I'm seriously hoping he does more of it tbh (in one way!) so that his agenda comes out into the light, clear and plain - clear enough for the law to see what he's really playing at; that his concern is not ds but keeping you under lock and key, mind and body.

I know how frightening it is - I shook with fear when ex did similar to me. so hard when the kids are there, so hard to think straight.

Thanks Ladies

So I did respond (before I read your lovely notes but hopefully you can see I have learnt a bit in the last year) which simply said (replying to all so cc'ing in FIL)

"Your father has made it very clear to me that he no longer wishes to be in the middle to protect his individual relationships with us; something I understand and will continue to respect - apologies FIL.

I will therefore only say your email seems to have been driven by fear as I think you understand your verbal and physical behavior crossed a line.

I had/continue to have no intention of involving your parents nor will I be making any decisions that are to the detriment of DS or his relationship with you which I had generally thought to be a positive one. However it has given me pause for thought on a number of issues which we will no doubt discuss privately or via lawyers over the coming days.

He then responded saying say what you mean that is what I was trying to get you to say (not ccing in FIL)

I responded saying (not ccing in FIL) again quite simply:


I found your aggressive behaviour to me and in front of DS, unacceptable.

I tried, repeateldy, to walk away; you would not let me.

I believe you have anger management issues to deal with to make you an effective parent.

I have been trying to forward co-parenting ideas which you have rejected

I will be talking to professionals how best to deal with this."

He then emailed me saying that all I need to do was finish my sentence and I would have found he agreed with me although he recognises he should have walked away however he was amazed and disappointed at my reaction (so disappointed it would seem he frothed at the mouth"

I responded I had no wish to get into a protracted email exchange about it.

He sent another email which I ignored and then an email about communication setting out how he wanted to talk to me about xy and z (things I have been trying to get him to discuss - all related to DS and activities/bike/things like that).

I think he realises he crossed the line (not excusing him) and has been trying to build up a paper trail in case I go to solicitors etc etc. I'm going to learn from my mistakes - I do recognise I can be very knee-jerk reaction about things when I am upset - and consider things over the w/end. I will definately arrange the public drop off but will send a considered email next week. I am mulling over talking to my solicitor but I genuinely want to leave behind the soap opera of last year behind so I don't want to open up the wound again if you see what I mean but I also don't want to downplay what I consider to be hugely hugely inappopriate behaviour. I think that my (for me) measured responses have been helped by a genuine desire to detach, realisation I am glad my wagon isn't hitched to his if this is how he is and also have given up booze for February (there is a charity thing over here called Febfast for addiction charities). Honestly DYING for a glass of wine and its only 3 days in (yikes) but did help me not shoot off ill-thought out emails last night when he was emailing and calling (I didn't take calls - which he has positioned in his emails of me not being a responsible co-parent - in the one call I did take just after I said I wasn't going to speak to him as I was upset, he was with DS and should be focusing on him and I didn't believe we would have a constructive conversation - then ignored the 4 calls from him over the next hour). Oh and all this not helped by then going to dinner at SIL's tonight for youngest nephew's birthday - outlaws also there - nothing mentioned - I mentioned nothing as will keep my word to FIL not to involve him although got a few concerned looks not sure if they were poor DIL or gosh DIL is mental - as sure DH has presenting himself as victim of hideous moi - God where is Mr Sauvignon Blanc when I need him??

Hopefully better w/end and thanks again everyone for your lovely responses and hugs - SO appreciate it xxxx

springydaffs Fri 03-Feb-12 11:24:00

You did so well Dolly! <hero>

springydaffs Fri 03-Feb-12 11:33:23

He is not taking responsibility for his behaviour - he is blaming you for it eg the email that said he shouldn't have done it, BUT then listing your 'misdemeanours' (in his eyes) - he is blaming you for his behaviour.

I know you want to draw a line under the soap opera of the past year but he has upped the ante now (re exposing what he's really up to) and I'd say don't back out now when the baby is about to be born (ifgwim). Let him hang himself. Do some more of that boundary stuff, it smokes him out.

McNaughty Fri 03-Feb-12 15:50:56

Phew, Dolly! I applaud your reactions to your Ex's attempts to harass you.

All I can add to the other wonderful posts is that in these circumstances I tend to link a person's anger to their guilt.

By God, he's a guilty piece of shit, hence his growing anger at your growing distance from him. You can read these guys like a book and you can see his facade crumbling. Maybe his new life in his reconstructed world aint so good after all.

Just be glad that you are out of his orbit and keep your wonderful calm responses coming. Be nothing but civil, then you can walk away with your integrity intact.

Patienceobtainsallthings Fri 03-Feb-12 15:55:06

in the summer ex was arrested for offensive voicemails and got let off with a warning ,as soon as police were involved it just meant for me every communication could b evidence now ,i know that and he knows that.It just cuts out the offensive rubbish.not saying u have to go to the police yet dolly,just mean ,try not to get drawn in and keep high boundaries.

wellthatsdoneit Fri 03-Feb-12 16:21:51

Ah, but they don't call it 'angry' do they. They call it 'disappointed'. My ex likes to let me know how 'disappointed' he is in me almost every time we communicate. He's fecking furious.

springydaffs Fri 03-Feb-12 17:51:50

Is he your dad ? hmm

wellthatsdoneit Fri 03-Feb-12 17:56:29

I know. Patronising in the extreme on top of everything else, and clearly severely limited in the irony awareness department too.

Patienceobtainsallthings Fri 03-Feb-12 18:18:53

or he is dissapointed by his own behaviour

Patienceobtainsallthings Fri 03-Feb-12 18:23:56

one of the best bits of not living witb ex is not having to listen to his bullshit everyday,good luck to all the dafties that hooked up with our exs ,cause it bored the life out of me smile

Dee34 Fri 03-Feb-12 19:24:30

Hi Dolly - so sorry to hear what you have been through (but so chuffed with your very measured and calm response in the face of such a wind-up merchant). Absolutely shocking that your ex did all of that in view of your son and seemed determined to continue the argument regardless of....well, everything. I am angry on your behalf that he could act this way and think that this is appropriate (esp in the way he basically blames the whole episode on you! Madness.....). You did fantastically to keep your composure in the email and also to call a halt to the email ping-pong that he obviously was enjoying in some way (what is that saying that any attention, even negative attention, is better than no attention? Maybe your ex has clocked on that there has been a change in you and more importantly the way you react/interact with him, and he doesn't like it.....he needs that attention I reckon). And what the heck is he thinking (or playing at) with dragging his father into the email in the first place....??

I think McNaughty is right about the guilt as I got this lots from ex. I struggled to see how he could be feeling honest-to-goodness-guilt as he wandered around so smugly telling all and sundry how happy he was now, but I think he was. He could never be decent and perhaps ensure that his guilt would mean that he would treat me with a bit more respect, but not to be.

I agree about the drop off in a public/populated venue to avoid any future nonsense from him. Hope you are okay. Will you get to speak to DS whilst he is away with his dad?

Well - ditto. Sorry that you are going through so much s**t with your ex. It is hugely funny (as in what the heck are they on?!) when they trot out the disappointment line. Again, like the anger, I got this verbally, in emails, texts....esp when I chose to dare to disagree with something ex wanted or rather decreed. He is most definitely the deluded king of his castle. I have escaped (prefer this viewpoint to the one where he got to do the choosing and dumping) and you, and Dolly, all of us that have gone through this.

Patience - agree, wonder if my ex has taken to his usual laze around the house, spread out over the sofa, wearing shorts with his bits hanging out (that he was always scratching, in-between picking his nose and then slyly eating the crusty bogies from under his nails), holding his hands over his belly and moaning about x, y or z (I used to joke and say he was turning into an old curmudgeon like his dad). Definitely a lucky escape! smile.

wellthatsdoneit Mon 06-Feb-12 12:05:40

Just wondering how everyone is today? I am feeling glum. Glum glum glum. Went sledging with ds yesterday and it felt tough as ex's country is a snowy one and it brings back many memories of ski holidays etc. Plus he is breathing down my neck in a psychopathic way about selling the house and I am feeling under the kosh (although I shouldn't be because he can't do anything without my consent). He is like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde - so over the top lovely to everyone else, and utterly vile to me.

springydaffs Mon 06-Feb-12 19:41:32

Yep, been there re the Jekyll/Hyde character. It is very confusing eh <bleurggh>

Can you limit comms between you? re get another phone, change number/email addy etc? Then he's out of your face as much as possible. I used to get a friend to read the letters from sol first and give me a general rundown of what they were about - also whether they were nice (ha!) or nasty. Kind of helped me to break it all down into manageable chunks. I read the letters in the end but it helped to have a human shield. Great that he can't do anything without your permission re house.

Glad to hear you're making some new 'snow' memories wink

Thinking of you well and love to all xx

wellthatsdoneit Tue 07-Feb-12 13:32:46

Thanks springy - i have limited communications as much as I can (i think). I'll only discuss the settlement/divorce etc via email as he's just so much of a bully and things get heated very quickly if we discuss it. I will discuss it face to face with a mediator further down the line if that becomes necessary - not going to do it on my own with him though, which seems to send him (even more) bonkers. He calls most days to speak to the children and I pick up the phone and if I hear it's him I just hand it straight over to ds. Worst thing is if he wants to skype as then I have to sit with the kids (as they're very young and just wander off) and keep them engaged with the conversation AND have to look at his arrogant mug.

The comment about making new snow memories is a brilliant one - I hadn't thought of it like that and it really made me smile. Gawd, it's just a huge chunk of my life (10 years) that I can't think about at the moment. I'm still in the stage where everything I look at has a memory of him attached to it. It's like six degrees of separation - anything you could care to mention I could find an association with him. Tough times, but gotta keep on truckin!

springydaffs Tue 07-Feb-12 14:31:37

You're grieving, and grief won't be rushed - I was going to say 'unfortunately' but really it's very healthy to allow the grief to run its course (with all the ups and downs..). HOld on sweetie, this too shall pass (it always does) x

Dee34 Tue 07-Feb-12 15:13:31

Hi Well - hope you are feeling okay today. I agree with Springy about making new snow memories. Glad you had a good time with the DCs. In the old days, ex would have been out building a snowman with DS, but, hey, I was able to do it as well as go sledging (and I dont generally do the cold/snow!), but we had a fab time! I think we get stronger from these experiences, which is one thing as we go through the ringer.....

Re the memories everywhere, I totally get your point and experienced the same. Could you perhaps pack some stuff away? Very early on, I had some bedroom decorations that I packed away, ditto, I had been thinking that this Christmas, I would avoid using some things in case it brought back memories, but in the end, I was fine, so think this will come with time for you. I do still get flashes when I see something and think 'oh, I remember when ex and I bought this or that together', but mostly I dont (dont know why! I think I end up thinking about other things I guess.....). Defo stick with email comms where possible. Hmmmm, Skype - am sure someone else will have better advice than me. Ex asked me about Skype a long time ago, but he originally suggested it back in like Feb or March last year - so literally a couple of months after his bombshell and he wanted to do this when he was over in the US, staying at her apartment.....told him where to go obviously....

Had the laugh of the week, no, century, yesterday with ex. Had taken some advice on here about setting out some boundaries/agreements with ex (yep, know he will most likely ignore, but in terms of creating my own 'paper trail', think this will help so he can't then accuse me of x, y or z.....same with the school stuff. Have all his emails and reasons for declining invites and then his final email of bascially how he couldn't be bothered as he knew I would do a better job on that etc etc, cant remember the fluffy details now). All couched in very neutral terms and covering general things like finance etc. I did mention one thing which I guess I shouldn't have on reflection as it crosses into them, but had asked (all via email btw) ex if he would explain to DS about the whole concept of half-siblings and him and baby having same dad (I think I am dwelling on the whole idea of ex's reference to new wife's friends and family and how they seem to automatically become DS' as they have a baby on the way now - he has been away loads with her and not asked DS to go, bar the very limp request for DS to go the US/their wedding last year. Get that on some level her family may want to 'integrate' DS as they would obv have a blood relation through new baby, but its just like arrgghhhhh, another thing to sit down and accept. Also, no offence, ex is dumb enough to not even think twice about this, that or he doesn't like to confront certain situations .....). Anyway, just wrote something along the lines of 'hope you will explain the subtleties of the situation to DS as and when and that he will be having a half brother or sister who shares same dad as him. Obviously explaining situation in language he can understand'. Nothing else said about them or asked about them. His response - 'oh yes, good point. When would you suggest I talk to him about that then?'. After I brushed myself down after spluttering my coffee, I composed myself and replied '[Ex], as you may remember, a couple of weeks ago you - quite rightly - told me on my doorstep that your joint pregnancy was nothing to do with me. I agree. I trust that as you agree about talking to DS as and when you deem appropriate, that you will no doubt select the best time to do this'

I left out the bit I really wanted to write about how surely the fail-safe manual they have been following for the last 14 months should have this sort of scenario covered and how of course they have made this decision with DS' best interests in heart along with all the other decisions they have made in the last 14 months.....being very sarky now, btw!

Can see that he is still blinded by the fantasy of living his dream life and having me as his trusty best friend doormat he can dump his sh*t on when he likes and will do all his hard and dirty work (and common sense thinking it seems) for him. Just can't believe the cheek of him....esp as when he told me to basically mind my business, it was when he told me the pregnancy news on my doorstep and I was stood crying in front of him....sheesh, as I was told at that time, wish I had never given him the satisfaction of seeing me crying in front of him about that now. I just dont want to be drawn into the drama/soap opera anymore.

As for everything else, am keeping on detaching. Emails have peaked again as he is picking up that contact is not wanted/returned unless essential - and there has been nothing essential bar the agreement stuff (hence, quite happily ignore his pointless emails about 'should he bring DS' wet trousers home or should he wash them at his?' or other super urgent topics.....can't wait until he is just a distant memory!

McNaughty Tue 07-Feb-12 16:48:17


What a great upbeat post you have just written. I know its couched in pain underneath, but your attitude and strength are gaining momentum and for once I can feel that you have the measure of your ex and the fact that he will never change - its you who has the opportunity to change and you are doing it! smile

My (slightly cynical) interpretation of his questions about when to tell your DS about the future is that firstly, by asking you to define 'the right time' means that if it went belly-up, it would be your fault for telling him that was the right time. Secondly this occasion will be one of the first times that he has to own up to what he has done and take the consequences of his behaviour. Woops, he's got nowhere to hide, no-one else to blame. Shame wink.

Look at it this way, you've picked up the doormat and thrown it away. You're right, you were a convenient target for blame so take heart from the fact that he is struggling with this - sending you emails about the stuff you never give a second thought. Stick with it... ignore, ignore, ignore.

And if it helps you to cope with your responses by writing the reply you would like to send. Write it, read it, delete it. That way its out of your head.

As for their fail-safe manual to a happy life? think they're reading it back to front and upside down! grin

Oh Dee, your ex does sound a bit in la la land. sounds like you dealt with it tres bien indeed well done! And WELL sorry that you are going through it. It is a horrid time and memories are hard, particularly when for you they are happy ones. Making new memories is the only way, although can be a little bittersweet but they will become more vivid and in time happier.

I'm a bit down the ladder at the moment as a result of last week's drama. I've also fallen a little off my distance horse as over w/end DS has just awfully agressive behaviour (for him) and when he got upset was hitting me and spat at me (sounds awful written down but he is lovely boy and whilst lots of character not at all like this). I was 'hey hey, what's all this' and he said 'I'm being daddy' sad. Of course said no Daddy would never hit mummy and he would be cross with you if you did (all true) but obviously his little brain trying to process. He also was v. mean (out of character) to 11 month old girl we saw socially to the degree I left after 25 mins. He also wet himself for first time in I can't tell you how long. Anyway, should have left it but sent ex an emotional text telling him and then arranged a telephone call with him today which we had where I outlined DS's behaviour and what we should do about it. In my text I had said (stupidly) that I didn't want him to see him this w/end as I wanted to get DS back on the lovely track he was. I know I couldn't do this and was stupid to go there but I wanted him to take it seriously. Anyway, net net he did concede his behaviour was bad, won't happen again, blah blah.

Also a bit upset as met a friend (with whom I used to be v. close and now not so much as her partner is friends with ex) and she asked me if I was OK as I seemed a bit subdued. We don't really talk about ex anymore so I said Oh i had an incident with ex that upset me but I don't want to bore you. she said no go on and I did. she voluntered that 2 people in their circle of friends had spoken to her about ex being aggressive/inappropriate with them in the last week or so so with this she was like gosh he is not in a good place etc (i didn't ask what incidents are but she said nothing to do with DS etc)...she also voluntered some information about the OW (primarily that she has no intention of moving to our city - although she and none of his friends have met her). I didn't ask any questions, she voluntered. Anyway, she texted me afterwards saying she felt she had said too much and could I not reference it to ex or anyone in our circle here. I said of course I won't (and haven't/won't). Then today she called and said she has been worrying since and that she can't talk to me about ex anymore (fair enough) but her reasons were that what I had told her is too 'serious' and that although she didn't think anything would happen to me or DS if it did it would make her feel awful knowing what she did and doing nothing about it so she didn't want to know anything. I was a bit taken about by her reasoning but said sure no problem I can understand that but tbh feel a bit slapped face, not because of what she said per se but because she asked me about it and then drove the conversation to which I didn't ask any probing questions. Anyway, probably being over sensitive but I felt like I was being 'punished' for responding to questions - I am so careful not to dump stuff on her - on anyone really aside from one dumping friend over here who is wonderful and a very close friend....i have felt very 'red faced' all day - literally a bit face burny. Does this make sense. I am just going to suck it up and mentally transfer her to 'social' friend but I guess its made me feel a bit more isolated over here and has led this evening for the old feelings of gosh its so unfair I am left over here and don't have any proper/close/old friends and that so much has been taken from me, including friendships. I know that sounds pathetic but I'm really feeling sadness about DS being my only child, am a bit financially stressed which isn't helping, and no feel like I have to live a soap opera whilst pretending all is well. I am in a ITS NOT FAIR. mode.

so, give me a kick please lovely ladies...

mummytime Wed 08-Feb-12 10:07:48

Dolly it sounds to me as if this "friend" spoke to her partner, and got told off, maybe for telling you to much. Or told not to listen to you.
There is no reason for you to feel embarassed, some people are just like this, their natural nosyness overcomes proper discretion, or any boundaries on how involved they want to be.
I would be a little concerned about your exes aggression though. Please keep records, and get advice on what to do if things seem to deteriarate but don't talk to him about it.
I can't remember how old you son is but in my experience kids often get "naughtier" at about 5, and when tired from starting school. However your exes behaviour isn't helping, as they learn more from actions than words.

springydaffs Wed 08-Feb-12 10:50:42

I think the 'I'm being daddy' comment after ds's behaviour is extremely telling and I would get this incident logged. Poor lamb - bless him sad

That 'friend' is certainly covering her ass isn't she? GRR I'd take it that you got a nugget of very useful info from her but that, frankly, she is no loss as a 'friend'. You know what they say: when the rubber hits the road you find out who your real friends are. Painful but true. I'm not surprised you felt you had been slapped in the face - I think you were (horrid woman).

I think you were right to withdraw contact in light of ex's behaviour in ds's presence. Take this seriously - it is. (though I would avoid heart2hearts with ex about it tbh)

Thanks Mummy and Springy. Helpful and Springy I know you are right about talking with him. Need to pin that on my mirror. You are right about friends. What I was taken a back about was not the not wanting to talk to me about ex per se (I have several friends who I don't talk about ex to as they are still quasi in his social circle) but the fact she said what you have said is upsetting, its upset me, i've been thinking about it and its too heavy and i have my own family to think about I don't want to be upset by hearing things like that and imagine how I would feel if something happended to you (!?!) your life is so shit its upsetting ME and if ex turned psycho, imagine how I would feel!!

I could understand if I was on the phone to her morning noon and night about tales of woe but literallly the only conv about ex in about 5 months...hey ho...anyway, giving it too much headspace....thank you ladies and mumsnet again for the place to vent/process....will not be mentioned it to any RL friends in Oz lest I sound like teenager : )

springydaffs Wed 08-Feb-12 13:08:19

I don't think it is teenagery tbh. I think you are dealing with some very serious stuff and you are finding out pretty sharpish who has the good sense to deal with it.. with good sense! Your 'friend' - well, it's all about her isn't it? Whether she's coping (wtaf?!?). I have a similar situation in my family at the mo, in that someting monumentally shit has happened - I have been accused of some pretty awful stuff - and members of the family are bemoaning how they aren't coping. No thought of how I may, or may not, be coping - they are nowhere to be seen, too busy lamenting on their beds!! It's all about them! Drop her like a hot brick, and anyone like her Dolly.

Here's your situ: ex has trapped you in a country that isn't yours, literally on the other side of the world, for the forseeable; controls your every move, is obstructive over unnecessary minutiae. Now he has upped the ante by abusing you (1) in front of your son (2). This is serious stuff! This is your liberty, ds's emotional and mental health (not to mention yours..) - plus anything else that he may be throwing into the mix. Serious stuff imo.

McNaughty Wed 08-Feb-12 16:35:37

Dolly, the advice from everyone here is spot on. I wouldn't worry too much about ex-friends and acquaintances. They will only have heard what they want to hear and people love being part of a drama. They also have no idea of the consequences of idle talk and it sounds as though if she'd a brain she'd be dangerous. She had to tell all to her OH who then panicked and told her to retract. Yeah, whatever...

You have done nothing wrong, but there are others who may use you so only trust those who have stood by you over the last few months. Its none of anyone else's business and the woman's comments to you after your chat are self-serving. Just someone who is out of their depth and doesn't have a clue what you have been going through. Her opinion is meaningless.

However, what you should go on is your own instincts. If you have a gut feeling that things are not in a good place with your ex then its a good indicator of how you should proceed. Just say to yourself 'How bad am I waiting for it to get?'

Its difficult to know what to do and you don't want to be over dramatic. Don't wait for anyone else to tell you how it is. You know how it is and its only your opinion of the situtaion that matters.

McNaughty Wed 08-Feb-12 16:37:22

And your DS - he's just pushing the boundaraies and being his age. Be firm and loving and you will have nothing to worry about. If you seriously think that your DS is being harmed by your Ex's behaviour, then cease contact.

You can't have this time back again, but you can make sure that whatever time he has with him is positive and that he is safe, emotionally and physically.

Thank you ladies for your wise advice. Not sure if its allowed on Mumsnet but I want to thank each and everyone of you for your care and responses. To quote Tennessee Williams 'the kindness of strangers' is valued, appreciated and will not be forgotten xxx

wellthatsdoneit Wed 15-Feb-12 19:42:44

Sorry not to have replied for so long, am very mentally drained at the moment.

Hope the detachment is still going well Dee. I would say to keep an eye on how it might creep up again - I think you're going to have to keep your boundary in your own mind (as your ex won't) and not deviate from it unless life and death. Let his little fingers burn themselves into a frenzy - you do not have to reply. Bring wet trousers home or wash them at his??? What a chump.

I'm sorry you're going through it at the moment too Dolly. I know in addition to everything else how difficult it is to suddenly be a single parent to a little boy. I have a copy of 'raising boys' back in my ex's country and I think there is a chapter in their for single mothers. Not sure if the author is any cop or if he's a raving lunatic mind you.

The "I'm being daddy" comment is very telling and a shocking indication of what a dreadful role model your ex is for your son. I sometimes feel I have to cajole my ex into caring about the children and am sometimes frightened to point out when I think he's not being a very good dad in case he disappears from their lives. But then I think, well, hang on, is a person so fickle and feckless someone who the kids would really benefit from having in their lives?? I dunno. They never said anything about THIS in the ante natal classes!

I think also some of it is that little boys go through a testosterone surge at about 4 too - maybe yours is starting his now?

Agreed that the 'friend' sounds like someone you would probably be better off without. You are right to move her from 'friend' to 'more of an acquaintance really'. You certainly find out who they are when you go through something like this don't you. Only one person of my ex's nationality has made contact with me since our split, which I find very telling. The rest I assume are either a) hopelessly socially inept or b) insincere and stick-to-their-own types. I don't have time for either.

The kindness of strangers is something I have been making full use of in the last six months. Off the top of my head I can think of the lady in my ex's country who saw me sobbing down the phone to my best friend in a cafe and came over and asked me if I needed a hug, and also the young man on the Waterloo-Reading train before christmas who saw me sobbing whilst texting on the way back to my friends house after having given evidence in the high court all day but before the judgment and offered me a tissue and said he hated to see people upset and asked me all about it - and believe me I let him know in all the gory detail and he was kind enough to nod sympathetically and keep handing tissues. The rest of the carriage must have been agog. Who said that Londoner's weren't friendly? I won't have a word said against them - not on my watch!

Dolly, Dee, Patience, Springy, and all others on this thread - you are among friends xxxx

springydaffs Sat 18-Feb-12 11:47:31

Who are you calling strange?! grin

Honestly, us women eh - we are heroes and champions. That's not to say men aren't eh (or some men, to be precise) but hey, it's us I'm celebrating at this precise moment.

Group hug, medals, chocs and bunches of thanks to all of us battling to survive these hideous 'men'. We'll get there! [battle cry]

<chariots/ hair flying/ raised arm [upper arm bangle]/ charging into battle>

Dee34 Fri 24-Feb-12 11:23:57

Hello - hope everyone is well. Quick check-in from me......after a lowish week (lots swirling around in my brain regarding ex, me, DS and various bits of his news), I now feel that I have turned a corner. A huge corner.....not sure why....thinks its the time now, think I have become attuned to him and my respones to him and my various needs (hopefully in the past) to engage with him, think about him etc. I have also been reading the book that Dolly recommended on Runaway Husbands and it has had a huge impact. So much so that I came back to re-read this (and previous) thread and it is like reading the advice for the first time in parts...mainly as I can see so much more clearly now (if that makes sense?!). All the advice on here has been spot on and wonderful support for me - it has really made the difference (hugely!).....

Ex still continues to grate on me* - but I now know that I have the 'power' to not let this affect me (or not as much as it used to!). Still expect a wobble or two on the road ahead (esp when DS comes home talking about new baby brother or sister etc), but, at the moment, I couldn't really care less if ex and new wife had a baby every year now - which is a massive change from as short a time as a few weeks ago. I think it's the realisation that actually, I would not want to have another child with this man myself, coupled with the utter farce (in my opinion - am sure that they see it as another way of sealing their deal etc) of the situation. Honestly - my seeting anger ('how could he have a child with someone he has been living with for 3 months', 'how come he is all for starting a new family so soon after ditching the last one', 'how will this affect DS and give him more stability, make him feel secure') has been replaced with a 'oh well' attitude. Am more than happy to leave them to it and my only wish now is that ex starts to get a clue and make sure that his (ex's) relentless quest for happiness takes into account what is best for DS. So, I hope he does some reading about how he can make DS feel more secure/not feel threatened when new baby arrived, but I know that this is for him to tackle, not me and I cant make him do anything.....will see how things go.

Well/Dolly - how are you both doing? Hope things are getting better.....

* I could go into pages the latest issue he landed me with - short version: DS has been ill, off nursery since last Thurs pm and at home with me from then through to Weds when he was well enough to go back to nursery. Ex's night for access that evening....he calls me 5 times in one hour whilst I am driving. 2 texts and an email also. Obviously, once I have parked up, I worry as DS has been ill and still on antibiotics. Turns out DS is crying for me. Fine, I speak for a bit (though by now, ex is saying 'oh he is fine now'! confused). Fine. Go about my evening. Then I get a call at 12.50am on landline - I ignore, then another call on my mobile and again, think 'maybe DS is ill', so I answer. There is a 'crisis' so ex tells me somewhat seriously.....the crisis is that DS is crying for me (I can actually hear him hysterical in the background), saying 'go away Daddy, I want my Mummy now'......I am on speakerphone and ex asks me if he can bring DS home as he cant calm him down! I agree (I know, I know...I would have felt horrible saying no as DS was on speakerphone and also had that need to comfort and soothe him as he was crying like I had never heard before), though whilst still on the phone, he starts to question me about whether DS has been sleeping in my bed (yes, he was, he had a burning temp and as I am working full-time - was WFH am, pm and evening to catch up on my hours whilst looking after DS) and how I have now given DS separation anxiety, even though he skipped off to nursery in the am and was fine and dandy when I waved him goodbye and explained he would be with his dad that night....I ignore. They come round at 1.45am, and on the doorstep, DS is suddenly as bright as a button (with a bit of fake crying that can be spotted a mile away) and ex tells me 'we need to have a chat tomorrow about some things'....I ask 'what' and he replies about DS' anxiety and behaviour!!! Anyway, Thursday comes round and I decide that er, actually, I dont want to talk or email convo about any imagined nonsense from ex, so send a very dry email explaining this and that is that. I also remind him that we are back to communicating via notebook in DS' bag and no texts or non-urgent emails.....Phew, a few weeks/months ago, I would have given ex two barrels in an email with what he came out with on the phone/doorstep (along with a terse reminder about how his various decisions over the last 14 months had caused a whole lot of problems that I just had to suck up and maybe questioning how he thinks he will be able to parent DS when there are worse circumstances than this to contend with), but now.....??? I just dont care. I dont want to enage or talk with him. I am loving having the notebook (though he has yet to write anything in it!) and having that extra bit of distance now.....I dont feel like I have to justify myself (as I used to) and honestly in this whole incident, despite DS being upset, my main regret is that I basically allowed ex to use me to do the hard parenting stuff as he couldn't do it....but feel like he took advantage a bit with DS being ill......definitely marked for future reference to spot...

Dee34 Fri 24-Feb-12 11:25:07

Oh dear.....I did go on for pages and pages with that last bit - sorry! smile

mazza1974 Fri 24-Feb-12 11:42:17

you are an inspiration ! well done you for getting this far you sound really positive and in control xxx

Xales Fri 24-Feb-12 14:30:04

It is very hard when it is your child crying and tugging at your soft heart strings but isn't he pathetic. Next time tell him it will be good practice for the future... grin

Also the 'we need' erm no you don't need... Just ignore when he says it, a non committal uh huh as you close the door on him.

Ignore the phone calls/texts and when he comments just an 'oh it wasn't in the book, sorry...' Until he gets the hint. Your DS may be about 15 then though grin

springydaffs Fri 24-Feb-12 23:56:25

Just watched Christina Perri singing Who Do You Think You Are on Graham Norton - thought of you lot! I was going to post a link but it isn't available yet - I'll do it tomorrow.

Well done Dee - that book sounds great! Though as you say, things click at the right time eh. so glad he his reaching full turd status in your heart and mind at last smile you've covered huge territory in only a year - well done girl