Cheating worse than beating?

[Anniegetyourgun]

Following on from the thread which talks about cheating but turns out to be a very disturbing incidence of DV (and a similar one recently), I wanted to explore why infidelity might seem worse than other kinds of abuse. I've given it a new title because I didn't want to start a philosophical discussion on the actual thread.

It's hard for most of us to understand how an abused woman can accept verbal abuse, hitting, isolation, financial deprivation and all the rest. Everyone would draw their own boundary in a different place and "know" what we personally would not put up with, but it's surprisingly easy to find yourself in a situation that on paper you'd never stand for five minutes. It depends how you've been conditioned, how subtly the abuse started, all sorts of factors; and once you're in, a cunning abuser has all sorts of techniques to keep you there, accepting it as normal, not realising there is a way out or even that there should be. Horribly, some can even end up accepting a certain level of abuse towards the children. If it's what happened to you when you were a kid, it's not always obvious that it's wrong.

But then the abused partner finds out he has been with another woman. This, for some reason, is the last straw - the ultimate betrayal of their relationship. It's the deal breaker, when strangling her or slapping the baby or making a child eat his dinner off the floor were just regrettable. That's a massive distortion of values, surely? How does it happen?

There's unlikely to be just one explanation. Here's one for the kick-off: that however badly a man treats his partner, she can still convince herself he loves her "in his own way". There are times of intimacy, whether having (often abusive!) sex, watching telly together, even having an argument, it's just the two of them together. He's got his little ways, sure, but he's her man, she's the one who knows his vulnerable side, the one he can "be himself" with, and all that... I hesitate to say bullshit, but it is really, isn't it? But when there's another woman in the wings, it means they are not sharing that special if often abusive bond; someone else is getting his attention too. It may finally make her realise he doesn't love her.

Unfortunately if she gives him enough time, he may be able to explain away even this, so that she can rationalise him spending time away as him having needs that only she can understand, and as long as he comes home to (knock the shit out of) her at the end of the day, it's ok. As long as he needs me, I know where I must be - and you know what happened to the girl who sang that.

When people on "that" thread were totally reasonably saying "forget about the shagging, look what he's doing to you", although I absolutely agreed with their point of view, I kind of wonder whether it is really the best thing to say in the circumstances. Everything he'd done was awful and getting worse, which she somehow saw as getting better! ... but in a little while he's going to get a wee bit smart and instead of making threats is going to say how much he misses and needs her, and that's when a woman most often goes back. Maybe she should be encouraged to dwell on the shagging around, and realise it proves he doesn't need her, doesn't love her, is treating her as a domestic skivvy and sharing those special moments with at least one, probably two, and possibly more other women. Indeed if she were to vanish off the face of the earth he would just move on to another woman, as he's half-way there already. The only reason he cares about her leaving is his ego. Women don't leave him and get away with it. Missing her as a person, don't make him laugh.

[AnyFucker]

both awful, but I can kinda see how infidelity can be a last straw (in reference to that particular thread)

at least when he is kicking the shit outta you, and only you, he is "yours"

[WhenwillIfeelnormal]

Do you know Annie, this has been rumbling around in my mind too....

A few months ago, a poster on here was being very challenging to those of us who had got past infidelity - along the lines of "how could you?" and "he must be an awful person". On another thread however, this poster admitted that her P is violent and aggressive and she was good enough to acknowledge the double-standard. That she could tolerate DV, but not forgive infidelity.

Now that seems like flawed logic to me, but then again, if a partner has been aggressive and violent and is then unfaithful, perhaps this is when people finally start "doing the maths" in the sense that the infidelity is not an aberration or out of character. It is just another abusive behaviour in a long line of such acts. Maybe that is a person's "waterloo moment".

Also I think the message about DV being not the victim's fault is pretty well-documented and accepted thinking now - no-one in their right mind would suggest that the victim "deserved it" in any way. So it is easier to make it less personalised. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for people's view of infidelity. Even perfectly sane, intelligent people (on here as well as in RL) believe that infidelity is deserved and justifiable in some cases and that people have only got themselves to blame if someone is deceiving them.

This is why even people with high esteem feel "shame" when they have been betrayed, or think that they "caused it" or could have prevented it. It is almost impossible for someone to de-personalise infidelity, because of the harmful beliefs that prevail, that their partner wouldn't have strayed if he had been happy and satisfied.

I also think that when posters are in need of a jolt or a bit of strength to do the right thing, it would make sense to focus on the behaviour they are most angry about, so in that thread's case, even if the infidelity seems the least of her troubles, respondents should perhaps emphasise that, because she clearly needs to leave that man and keep her and her children safe.

[SolidGoldBrass]

It's because women are endlessly, endlessly, fed the lies that 'love' (ie heteromonogamy) is their purpose in life, that other people are property, that nothing is more important in a relationship than monogamy, that 'difficult' (ie violent or verbally abusive or unpredictable) men are romantic and exciting and that martyrdom is a virtue in women.

There is a separate sort of abusive relationship where the unmonogamous partner is actually getting his/her kicks from betraying the other, but that's (presumably) not what's going on with the specific thread referred to,. which I haven't read yet.

[countingto10]

It would be interesting to know what percentage of abusive/violent men are actually unfaithful too - 100%, 75% ? Is infidelity abuse ? Part of overall bad behaviour ?

From my personal experience, the infidelity was a culmination of my H's arrogance, selfishness, sense of entitlement etc. It felt (and still feels) extremely personal to me (far more than any of his other "bad" behaviours) and even though he was treating other people badly in subtle ways. But if ever he had laid one finger on me or our DC, that would have been the end.

We are shaped by our past and my mother put up with some horrendous behaviour from my father (no violence though but us kids were subject to some appalling scenes etc). This "taught" me what to expect from relationships ie bad behaviour etc so I put up with my DH's crap until the affair which "opened" my eyes (with the help of counselling "How much are YOU going to put up with before enough is enough ?").

Interesting topic though.

[Anniegetyourgun]

Mm, if someone does believe the infidelity is their fault but the rest isn't, wouldn't the shame of not being good enough for him dig them even deeper into the abuse rather than shocking them out? In a case where the partner has been unfaithful, I mean.

I know you're right about the "people only stray if they're unhappy" myth. I was tremendously relieved when our counsellor said that my (pretty feeble effort at an) emotional affair was just a symptom, as I'm sure it was, but she then went on to say that in her experience nobody ever had an affair in a fully happy and satisfying relationship. I wasn't in a good place to question that at the time, but I can think of people I've known (commonly at work) who seem to be ever so content with home life and yet were having a bit on the side, mainly, it seemed, because they could. It wasn't so much a "why would you have an affair" as a "why not?". There would have to be a "why" for me as I believed strongly in monogamy as a way of life for myself, but as we know, not everybody feels the same way.

Actually this thread is probably unnecessary now, as I think Confusednchaos pretty much put her finger on it on the other thread.

"the infidelity hits home harder than anything because the abuser explains away the other behaviours by saying its because they love you too much, the infidelity shows all the weaknesses and lies at once"

It's so well put, concise and heartfelt. She's been there. It's sad that horrible things sometimes happen to nice people precisely because they are nice.

[countingto10]

That's it - it does show all the lies and weaknesses at once. I could explain away DH's other behaviours, kid myself etc but not the infidelity. And also he couldn't either - it was the shock he needed to change his behaviours/face up to them (before stuff was explained away because "He was doing it for "us", the DC, the business etc" but not the infidelity).

[WhenwillIfeelnormal]

Yes Annie and counsellors like that do more harm than good, because they collude with the unfaithful ("you wouldn't be doing this if you were happy") instead of getting their clients to think about more ethical choices - choices that would actually boost esteem and self-respect in people like you, who know deep down that deceiving someone is wrong. The monogamy/non-monogamy debate is a red herring here, because if someone departs from monogamy without telling their partner, it involves deceit.

The aspect about infidelity that is often overlooked is that it makes fundamentally decent people feel worse about themselves.

And counsellors who peddle these beliefs to the betrayed make them feel ten times worse.

The problem with this too is that since counsellors themselves are very often in monogamous relationships, they cannot look at this more objectively and like so many other people, believe that fidelity can somehow be prevented by someone other than the unfaithful party. If people believe this, they can comfort themselves that it can never happen to them.

And yet, those same counsellors would never dream of saying to an abusive client "you wouldn't be doing this if you were happy and satisfied" or colluding in excuses for behaviour that is wrong.

[Anniegetyourgun]

Well I don't think there's much question why people cheat when they're like the unspeakable creature on the thread we're talking about. It's just another example of the way he treats his personal slave, sorry partner, with utter contempt. They weren't married so I guess he could say he never promised her exclusivity anyway (technically if he was cheating it was on his long-abandoned wife). I think actually he was dropping heavy hints that he was having affairs to upset her, but was still furious when she found proof. Basically he just did whatever he liked and she was supposed to suck it up. How can one get through to women in this situation, this is not love! (And men too - there was one on here just last week, wasn't there, whose partner barely noticed he existed but he kept asking what he could do to fix things - you can't mate, give it up! Again, the cheating was almost irrelevant but it was the thing that concerned him most.)

I think you're right, SGB, "lurve" has a bloody lot to answer for. Monogamy can be great if both partners agree and want the same things out of life. It's also a very practical way of bringing up a family, though by no means the only way. But it's got to be about choice, the choice you both make to commit exclusively to each other, the way you treat each other, whether you decide to stay long term. Once one partner gets to make all the choices it's not a relationship, it's a dictatorship, as they say - or worse.

[celticfairy101]

SGB is right to a certain extent about the 'property' issue in relationships, but this cuts both ways and it isn't just for the woman. A physical and verbal abusive man will nearly always view the woman as his property, to the point that when she does leave him he persues her to still pose a threat.

However I don't think that the shock of infidelity is about losing your 'property'. It's so much more complex than that. It involves betrayal, deceit, the person you thought you knew and of course, if there are children involved, then the hurt and devastation to their lives.

There are so many different types of affairs anyway. Emotional, one night stands, romantic affair, long term mistress. Who is to say which one is the worst?

[BrittanyBeers]

Violent, controlling relationships are very intense IME, and yes, the beatings are justified with that old "it's because I love you too much" bullshit.
Cheating can't be excused in this way and it feels as if someone (the OW) has interloped on this "close" suffocating relationship. (After all, you were led to believe it was just you and him against the world.)

When I look back at a major violent relationship I was in, my blood still runs cold when I think of him cheating and the twisted pleasure he got in telling me all the gory details, how many times he came etc.
Yet I feel almost "meh" about the time he repeatedly slammed a door on my head as I lay on the ground.

[Anniegetyourgun]

Ooh Brittany...

Well they do say it's the bruises on the inside that hurt the most. Not, of course, to belittle physical pain in any way. But the emotional hurt goes on for years.

[AnyFucker]

brit

[globalmouse]

this is a very interesting thread.. I only recently posted that I was having difficulty getting my head around meeting the ow 18months down the line.
Although she rescued me from an abusive relationship, I was still half-angry about the fact that exh had run off with her and split up our family!!
Very odd.

[booyhoo]

i could forgive my partner for cheating on me but i could never forgive him for hitting me. that isn't to say i could forgive him easily for cheating or that i definitely would but i know i definitely wouldn't forgive violence.

[Tillyscoutsmum]

This is very interesting and, even having had personal experience, I still don't know the answer.

I was married at 19 to a 37 year old, very abusive man. I was an outgoing, seemingly intelligent (5 A grade A levels) teenager when I met him (although there was abusive in my home life as a child so I was pretty messed up inside).

This man slowly and gradually totally controlled every aspect of my life. I couldn't take up my Uni place I'd got, I wasn't allowed to learn to drive, I lost contact with all my family and friends and was beaten on many occassions (usually if another man so much as glanced in my direction). I wasn't allowed to wear make up and my wardrobe consisted of things even my mother would consider too old and frumpy to wear. He picked me up and dropped me off at work every day and I wasn't allowed the tiniest bit of freedom. I totally lost who I was and I never really once thought of leaving.

At the age of 24, a woman who was 8 months pregnant turned up on my doorstep and told me she had been sleeping with my husband. I remember telling her that it couldn't be true because I knew he was far too possessive to sleep with a woman who was pregnant with someone elses child. She then told me it was his and he's been shagging her for 2 years. I found out later there were more.

That is what made me finally leave. He made my life hell. The divorce took years and cost thousands and he left me in huge amounts of debt (repossessed house etc.)

We never had children together (thank God) and I now I have them, I would really like to think I would have left sooner if he has been abusive. My step father was abusive and I never forgave my mother for sticking around and putting us through it. But who knows ? I have no idea whether I'd have stayed through what I did. There is just no logic when you've been almost brainwashed by men like this

[EcoMouse]

I've experienced atypical DV and infidelity in seperate relationships. I didn't 'stand for' either but the infidelity did by far the worse damage to me.

For me, it's largely about future ramifications. If someone displays controlling or other red flag behaviours, I find it relatively easy to step away. If someone is having an affair, I might never know.

I found it easier to extricate myself from the headshit wreaked by DV than that caused by infidelity.

I can stand losing my respect in people (DV) but not both my trust and respect (infidelity). If I have no trust, I have no hope. If I have no hope, I have nothing but a future in dread of it happening again and me not knowing until it's 'too late'.

i.e. In a DV scenario, the abused always has the option of leaving, no matter how blind they might be to that possibility. With infidelity, you are unaware, all choice is removed from you, your life can be ripped apart in front of your eyes but you can have absolutely no idea until it's gone. The shock can be immense and the disempowerment of ignorance is far from bliss.

[booyhoo]

tilly that is an awful introduction to love. so glad you were able to remove yourself from it and i hope you are now happy.

[SolidGoldBrass]

It;s also fear of infidelity that drives some abusers (this is where you sometimes find abusive women - so terrified of infidelity that they become incredibly controlling, verbally abusive, destructive of property etc): certainly if someone is with one of those I can understand how finding that the abuser, who has been blaming the abuse on his/her 'insecurity' and deep passionate possessiveness 'love' has in fact been putting it about all over the shop would be an eye-opener.
Mind you that would be an example of an affair as a positive thing - providing the impetus for the abused partner to leave.

[Tillyscoutsmum]

SGB - In my case, I think that's spot on. Ex h's mother was an alcoholic and had died and he had serious "abandonment" issues. His possessiveness of me was always blamed on that. He was always petrified he would lose me and that's why he acted like he did (obviously 15 years on, I can see it for the utter bullshit it was but at the time, I was almost flattered

booyhoo - thank you. Yes - very happy now. Its taken a while and a hell of a lot of therapy though

[Anniegetyourgun]

XH was always fixated on the possibility of me having an affair, even before we were married (big red flag of course). I doubt very much that he ever put it about himself, but if I were to find that he had I think I'd laugh like a drain.

[celticfairy101]

SGB: which is why I would never have an affair with someone in an abusive, controlling relationship. I would always think that I was being used as a stepping stone to a way out.

Britney my soon to be exh did the same thing to me regarding the telling all the gory details of their first night together and the glorious, fantastic sex they had [sceptical]. Found out later he's using the potency tablets. He had issues keeping a stiffy.

This from Simone De Beauvoir:

"No one is more arrogant towards women, more aggressive or scornful, that the man who is anxious about his virility."

My stbexh was never violent towards me but always put me down regarding his supposed superior intellect.

[WhenwillIfeelnormal]

I saw your thread globalmouse and while I can see why you are glad your abusive relationship ended, I nevertheless completely understand why you feel the way you do towards the OW and your unfaithful H. It's not as if the OW's motives were to rescue you from an abusive relationship, after all. Her motive was to get your H to leave you. What a prize though, eh?

Yes EcoMouse I completely understand what you are saying. In a DV situation, it's openly conducted, in all its horror. The only deceit that might exist is the motive for it, e.g. mother abandonment, extreme love and all the other ridiculous excuses for violence.

But with infidelity, it isn't openly conducted and there is deceit about every aspect. However erroneous that choice is, people know that they are choosing to stay with someone who is violent, whereas a betrayed partner is in ignorance and has that choice taken away from them.

It's the deceit that messes with your head, the sense that your life is being controlled by events that you knew nothing about.

[ninah]

because the cheating is disloyal

[SolidGoldBrass]

Hmm. Funnily enough the one moderately abusive relationship I had was actually ended by an OW actively pursuing the bloke.
I sometimes wonder where she is: I would love to buy her a pint and thank her - and find out if he was horrible to her and how quickly she dumped him...

[ninah]

that's what's so mad though, the image an abusive man has for the outside world can be so plausibly attractive