Flirting. Discuss.

[IsGraceAvailable]

I've noticed an upswing in threads about flirting -> suspected infidelity and such. Maybe the warm weather's brought it all out - makes a pleasant change from abuse, in a way.

What do you consider 'acceptable' flirting?

I used to work in a very social industry (advertising). Flirting was part of everyday routine. I'd go for lunch with clients & colleagues; there was a function of some sort every night; about twice a week I hosted a late dinner on business. I flirted, I danced, I hugged and kissed (in a "dahling" sort of way), I enjoyed intense conversations that were often personally revealing.

Sometimes I learned more (psychologically & physically) than I'd asked to know, but I always felt safe. And I never threatened another's relationship.

I had a bunch of fun. I can honestly say I loved a lot of my clients & co-workers.

Now I'm back in the 'ordinary' world, I realise this very sociable behaviour is not always considered okay. At least 75% of the men I knew, back then, were unfaithful to their partners, and about 50% of the women. I don't know whether our environment provoked their infidelities, or whether they would have found a way to cheat anyway. I do know the people I most liked & respected did not cheat - but, sometimes, there was pressure on us to do it.

I know where I stand on all of this (it took me a while to figure out). I wondered what you guys think? Where do you draw the line? How did you arrive at your 'line', and how do you enforce it?

[secunda]

I am a flirt. But I have an internal line, can't really define it, but I just feel when something is tipping over into the wrong.

[seeyoukay]

I flirt like a thing that flirts a lot. Never let it be any more than flirting so I don't see the harm.

[IsGraceAvailable]

Me, too, Secunda

But neither of us was freaked out by the dodgy photo on facebook. Quite a few people were. So are we wrong, for thinking you just can't avoid fuckwit females on a night out - or are the others wrong, for thinking every attached man should keep strange women off his lap??

[secunda]

No I think we're sensible, obviously

I think if someone's got a bit of spunk about them (excuse the phrase) then they will be a bit of a flirt. I don't even particularly think the girl was a fuckwit, she was probably just a bit pissed.

[IsGraceAvailable]

Yes, and I shouldn't have put her down like that. Well caught, thanks Secunda!

Did I start this thread at the wrong time? Are all the ferociously-suspicious and potentially-betrayed DWs out having romantic dinners with their OHs??

Before I decide to leave it for tomorrow (rain again, we'll all be indoors on Mumsnet): I used to wonder what my team's wives would think, if they knew all the boys had been drunk-dancing on the bar with their willies out. As I knew the wives, I reckoned I could guess. I think the ones, whose wives would be furious, are the ones who did cheat in the end.
Chicken or egg?

[BritFish]

i am a flirt, but it depends on the situation. there are pictures with my DH with women on his lap, usually my friends and myself!
flirting for us as a couple means only in person and among good friends.

[IsGraceAvailable]

Hmm, BritFish, what does "flirting only in person" mean??

[WhenwillIfeelnormal]

I used to be an outrageous flirt - and in my younger days, it got me into a few tricky situations and to my regret, I know it also caused a few lovesick blokes pain, which I'm not proud of. However, like you Grace, I never flirted with anyone who was married or in a long term relationship. That was my "line" as secunda suggests.

I used to be pretty liberal about flirting, believing that it helped the working day go quicker and was often completely harmless, but actually now I think it's disrespectful to one's partner - and someone else's if the recipient of the flirting is attached.

There is an implication in your post too that the wives who would have taken a dim view of their Hs exposing themselves in public were so uptight that their Hs cheated on them. I'd reach a different conclusion actually - and that is that the sort of fuckwits who think it's hilarious to get their dicks out in public are more likely to be the sort of self-absorbed arses that would cheat anyway - and it's got nothing at all to do with their wives.

I know it's bad form to mention a thread within another thread, but the only reason I felt my hackles go up about that FB picture was the previous thread from the OP. I think if I'd read it without prior knowledge, I might have had the same reaction as you. Just got one of those memories for names and threads I'm afraid...

And Grace, there are a lot of footie fans on Mumsnet, so most of us have probably been with friends watching England draw their first match, hence not much traffic on the site tonight! We've had a crowd round tonight at our house and had great fun, despite the goalkeeping howler.

[skidoodly]

I consider acceptable flirting to be flirting that doesn't make bystanders feel uncomfortable.

[IsGraceAvailable]

lol & thanks, WWIFN.

I seem to have entered essay mode with this post - sorry

I didn't mean to imply the nervous wives triggered their H's infidelity, I was trying to say I don't know - chicken or egg? Maybe the wives were cross about such things, because they felt a risk in their men. Or maybe their protectiveness led to their Hs feeling, and acting, like gated schoolboys.

I've always believed in 'instinctual truth'.

Had I respected my own instincts, I would not have suffered the abuse I have - though I now feel it was all part of a painful lesson I had to learn, given my background. I'm proud of learning: it's opening up a bunch of fresh questions!

Just as these forums have helped to speed up my recovery, they've also revealed depths of fear & insecurity that I never suspected within women and men. When somebody posts here with an 'infidelity or not?' question, the thread gets flooded with posts full of vitriol. Each one, giving an example of quite ordinary (in my view) misbehaviour, but loaded with horror for the poster.

I feel everybody likes to flirt, everyone has an ego and flirting nourishes it.

I was thinking about whether, in these countries (geographic GB), we lack sensible guidelines about what's acceptable? I know I've often been considered inappropriate & threatening, and I know I felt more comfortable in Latin America. But that doesn't explain anything, or help much. A very close friend called me a 'loose cannon'.

Am I out of order, then, or am I missing something? Or is she?

I wonder how the majority of Mumsnetters would feel about me or secunda if we were at a party of theirs. We know they can trust us, but if they don't then something's wrong surely? What is acceptable flirting?

skidoodly wrote "I consider acceptable flirting to be flirting that doesn't make bystanders feel uncomfortable."
I agreee. But what if the homebody doesn't find it acceptable? How the hell do you know what flirting won't hurt??

[BritFish]

by flirting in person i mean no unnessecary texts or flirty emails...i dont know? like at a party i would go over and give DH and mine friend from when we were younger a big hug and kiss on the cheek, but i wouldnt send him a text like 'missed you soooo much we much have coffe you naughty thing'
or however you text-flirt

[IsGraceAvailable]

Yes! I see what you mean, BritFish. I think that doing a bit of eye-flashing, rapt attention & outer-body touching (not out OF body, heh) is good for the ego. I like flicking my hair around, feeling pretty and doing a bit of dirty dancing. But if the follow-up call/note said anything more intimate than "You were on good form", I'd be creeped out. It'd be inappropriate; intrusive.

Maybe because the communication is one-way - with the phone or email, you don't have the benefit of all those subtle signals, which say "This touch is OK but don't try that touch!" sort of thing. It would also mean the other person had misread me, and that would worry me. I'd feel I'd given the wrong message.

But how do you know you're giving the right messages? One time, I walked into a party to find a woman friend giving XH a lapdance - the room was crowded, she had her clothes on, but it freaked me out (I later realised he'd engineered it, but that's irrelevant here). I could not explain why it was so awful. She often danced with XH, very suggestively, but that just looked like playing to me. I still can't put my finger on why it felt so wrong.

Is it just a matter of picking up signals? Is that why a cheeky remark by text feels sleazy, where it doesn't in person? I don't know how this'd work on a video call - I've only ever used them for work!

I'm very glad I don't live in Jane Austen's time, but at least they had clear guidelines!!

[secunda]

Ooh, you see I think in a way previous centuries provided better opportunity for flirting. Especially the dancing. No one does proper dancing with his arm round your waist any more. It was seen as perfectly respectable but I reckon you could tell a lot about a guy from dancing like that with them!