How long would you expect before he tries to take things further?

[kittya]

My friend has been seeing a really sweet guy for 3 months. They go on dates approx twice a week. He seems really keen but..... He hasnt made a move on her. He politely kisses her at the end of the night. She's stayed at his in the same bed and nothing. I think he may just be inexperienced or shy. She does like him and doesnt want to lose his friendship but, is started to feel unattractive. She thinks he just doesnt fancy her. They are going out tomorrow day and she wants to take things further but doesnt really know how to bring it up and she would hate to lose him as a friend. What do you think is the appropriate time gap and, what should she say to him?

[Mongolia]

How old are they?

I tend to agree with her in that he just doesn't fancy her.

I wouldn't say anything, but would assume I have found a good friend, and move on.

[kittya]

both mid twenties. She's had a couple of long term relationships she thinks he may have only had one girlfriend. She gets on very well with him and his friends and theyve really made her feel welcome but she said he never even holds her hand. Theyve had drunken kisses but he never tries to go further.

[Mongolia]

I would say that apart of a friendship, there's nothing there.... Sorry.

[kittya]

Ive told her that as well. She is nervous to bring it up but wants to know. Is it worth her asking what he wants or should the actions/non action say it all?

[ItsGraceAgain]

I think she should jump him. At least she'll get a reaction!

[kittya]

well, there is that!!! She just loves all his group of friends, her social life has really taken off since she met him and, she does actually fancy the guy. He seems pretty solid (I never said boring) oh, Im glad Im not young again!

[Mongolia]

Kittya, I think you should be thankful for the friendship and try to find another person, this one seems in need of company but not of romance, and the friendship can be gone if you put any pressure on him.

It may be that he is shy, but would you enjoy taking the lead and calling the shots all the time? I wouldn't, and the fact you are here wondering about this shows that you wouldn't like that either. I would rather wait or go in the search of a man with more initiative.

[kittya]

Im talking about my friend, not me!!! but I will pass on the advice.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Has he at any point said anything to suggest to her that he wants a couple-relationship with her? Does he refer to the time he spends with her as 'dates'? Do they in fact go out just as a couple, or is it a matter of socialising with a group? How, for instance, did the sleeping-in-the-same-bed come about, did she miss the last bus home, does she live miles from where he and his friends socialise, or did he invite her to stay the night?
Basically she is going to have to make an advance to him, verbally or physically but she needs to be prepared for him to turn her down/say he just wants to be friends.

[kittya]

well, he stayed at hers one night at her invite. They sat in and watched dvds and ate dinner. He never made a move on her in bed. They go out as a couple and with friends, he does kiss her full on when they are out. Last night they went to the cinema and he never made a move and he asked her what was up in the pub after but she never had the courage to say anything. They have made plans to go away for the night in August. I think you are right and she will have to make a move tomorrow night. She doesnt know how to bring it up though,

[thumbchick]

don't bring it up, just have a couple of glasses of wine and then try and jump him but she has to be prepared for him to refuse.

He might have strong faith reasons why he doesn't "do" sex before marriage.

He might not fancy her.

He might have physical problems.

He might be gay and trying not to be (been there, had a bf like that and he was great for the snogging but reluctant to do anything else).

She has to give it a go and then see what comes out of it; if nothing, he refuses her advances, then she needs to ask why - if he won't tell her, then she needs to look at whether this is the relationship for her or not.

[mathanxiety]

They don't seem to be able to communicate very directly with each other. She doesn't tell him what's up in the pub, she doesn't know how many gfs he's had in the past (after 3 months it's odd not to know something like this), and she is nervous about bringing things up. Meanwhile, he doesn't seem to be volunteering any info to her that would be relevant to their relationship.

I thought the gay thing too, and have had a similar experience to yours Thumbchick (exH). Either that, or he's a bit of a controlling type, enjoying seeing her confused, and that's what's making her nervous.

[SolidGoldBrass]

He might even be asexual (no interest in sex at all). Mind you, she sounds like a prize wuss as well. Most people by now would have had a couple of drinks and gone, look, don't you fancy me at all?
TNH I think it's extremely unlikely that her making a move on him will get her anywhere as he really doesn't sound at al bothered about having a romantic or sexual relationship with her. He may, as MA says, have picked her because she's a wuss who won't put much pressure on him, or he may be so wrapped up in his own issues that it hasn't occurred to him he's sort of leading her on a little bit because he sees her as just another pleasant new mate. If he was interested in sex with her it would have started happening the night she invited him to share her bed.

[londonartemis]

Maybe he is using her in front of his mates to make it look as if he has a girlfriend. A long standing male friend of mine implied for years that he had something going with another girl which we all believed, and in fact it turned out that nothing had ever happened bar good friendship with her.

[kittya]

I had a friend who's husband turned out to be gay and she said to me at the time "he made be feel so unattractive" I have noticed that about half of his group of friends is gay or bisexual and it was the first thing I asked her, she said it had crossed her mind as well. They are a quite tight knit bunch of friends all born and brought up in the same area and she is an outsider and is loving the fact that they have embraced her. I assure you she is not a wuss, she is lovely and outgoing and everyone always comments on how nice she is. She also has a very feminine figure, great knockers, if I may say so. I think any boy with a pulse wouldve jumped her by now. Infact she has been invited out by this group next week and the guy she has been dating isnt going. I think she should go and see whether it works without him. I almost think theres no point in her bringing it up anymore.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Kittya: There's certainly no reason why she shouldn't socialise with this group of people she likes and who like her. But she probably should give up on hoping that this particular man is going to be her boyfriend and therefore stop behaving as though he is eg hanging around analysing what he is thinking or waiting for him to call, best bet is to enjoy the social life with or without him.

[mathanxiety]

Gay, imo, or just not into her sexually. I would go further, and say if she feels nervous about broaching issues with this man, and it's not her usual personality or approach, she should not be considering any sort of intimate relationship with him, close friendship included. No harm in developing friendships with the group, but ime closeted gay men who use women as beards are baaaaaad news.

[kittya]

You wouldnt think he would need a beard though would you considering afew of his friends in the group are in gay relationships. Even if he's not, he might just be completely inexperienced and I dont think you could be bothered with that, if she is honest. changing the subject sort of, how do you feel about relationships with a bisexual guy? Im not saying this chap is but, are people ok with this now? I have loads of gay friends myself but not bisexual ones, I just dont know anyone who is. Is it a generation thing? I never remember knowing any when I was younger either!! It was so black and white in them days!!

[FabIsGettingThere]

Maybe he just wants to wait.

Not everyone fucks after a couple of dates.

She should talk to him.

[kittya]

Yep, there is that as well. She just thinks three months is long enough not to even cop a feel!!

[FabIsGettingThere]

That is her opinion though. He might feel differently. Which is why she has to talk to him.

[mathanxiety]

A beard can be used for any number of reasons, work, family, etc. Or just to bolster his own self-image, if he's struggling with his sexual identity and wants to identify as straight for whatever reasons he thinks this might be desirable.

As with any relationship, communication is key, whether you're involved with a bisexual or gay man. The lack of good communication, the nervousness about bringing things up, in the relationship your friend is having, would be a red flag for me that the relationship is shaky. As far as a relationship with a bisexual man -- communication would be just as important as with anyone else. If someone feels they can't bring things up or can't ask questions, don't go there, and don't go there with someone straight either.

There's a good deal of debate among my friends from an online forum for women who are or who have been involved with bi or gay men as to whether there is really such a thing as bisexual. None of them who are involved with men who identify as bi feel really secure about the affection of the men and some of them are just waiting, on some level, for their houses of cards (as they see their relationships) to collapse. None of them ever feel truly adored or completely 100% attractive or "enough" for their partners. Some feel their men are one woman short of gay.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Fab: but most people are aware that in the general culture of the UK, dating someone for three months involves an expectation of sex so if a person has firm reasons for wanting to wait, or issues around it, that person needs to communicate this. If the bloke tells her that he doesn't want to soil his holy cock with anything premarital, or that he's a wounded butterfly who needs a bucketload of patient ego-stroking before he'll feel able to give her a snog, at least she knows what's going on.

[FabIsGettingThere]

People can want to wait without it being because of a negative trait you know.

[kittya]

I dont think when they are alone he makes a move although he has done in the pub, infront of his friends. Oh, I think I know where this is going. She really likes him as well. Ive had the bisexual discussion with her and she feels (as do her other friends) that in afew years there will be no sexuality and everyone will be everything!! I know Im showing my age because I dont agree with that. Anyway, this was before she met this chap. She might start feeling differently soon!