What would you say this means?

[Bibithree]

A married friend of mine is conducting an affair with a man she knows has a partner and child, but won't admit to it being an affair as although they are having sex, it's a casual thing and (she claims) they don't want anything else from each other (ie. emotional support, feelings, love, relationship etc) ... I don't approve, she knows my thoughts on this but that's by the by.

After every time they meet, she spends hours picking apart their conversations, asking me constantly what I think he meant by what he said etc. I want to scream at her that he's using her, she's just an amusement for him and can't she see she's developing feelings for him that she totally denies she has. This weeks snippet is: he said he thought when they first started meeting it was madness, now he thinks it's fun.

She is taking this to mean he has developed feelings for her that he didn't have before and I know, having known her for many, many years, that she's hoping this is the case.

What can I say to her to convince her he's just having fun and that this means nothing? I love her dearly and don't want to hurt her feelings or make her feel like a fool, but I would rather be the one to do that than let him do it to her. Should I butt out and not risk becoming the bad guy in all this or try harder to protect my friend?

[GypsyMoth]

i think you need to leave her to it and just be there when it all falls apart....you've pointed out whats at stake

[JodieO]

I do think he's "doing" anything to her, they are doing it to each other. She's just as much to blame as he is, it certainly doesn't seem like he's the one using her as it works both ways. They're both married and cheating on their partners, the ones having the affair would be the least of my concern; or their feelings tbh.

[Mongolia]

" don't want to hurt her feelings or make her feel like a fool"

Then the only option is to butt out.

Or perhaps tell her that you preffer not to hear more about it, mayybe she would get the hint that it is not madness, it is not fun, but just wrong?

[Bibithree]

Thank you. I know what she's doing is wrong, as does she, but she is still my friend, faults and all, and although what she's doing on one level disgusts me, she's still my friend and I don't want it all to go wrong.
I will be there for her when it does, as this is not going to end well, no matter how it ends. I try not to engage in conversations about this with her, change the subject etc but she has only told me so feels like she can trust me to unburden herself. I will try and be more forceful about telling her I don't really want to hear about it.

[Anniegetyourgun]

None so blind as those who will not see. There's nothing you can say to convince her because she's not listening. Personally I'd refuse to listen if she talks about her bloody affair when you've already told her you don't approve. She's being about as selfish in dumping on you as she is about having an affair (what does she think an affair IS if having sex isn't?!) Save all your emotional energy for the day it does all go pear-shaped, because you're going to need to make one heroic effort not to say "I told you so"!

[Squitten]

I don't think it's a case of "bad man taking advantage of woman to get his kicks" and she doesn't need you to protect her. She knows the score here - he already has a family. If she chooses to be the "other woman" then she needs to accept the consequences of being in that kind of relationship, i.e. that he may well go back to his family. If she really believes that that isn't even an option then she isn't too bright...

I would stay out of it if I were you and be there for her if it goes wrong. Who knows? He wouldn't be the first man to leave his wife and kids for someone else

[Bibithree]

I know she doesn't need me to protect her but I feel protective towards her, which is my issue not hers. Like I said, we are very good friends and I she's not the deceitful type, she's a born worrier, so this is entirely out of character for her. I think she's got carried away with something that should have gone nowhere and now can't give it up because she is enjoying the attention and equates that with thinking he has feelings for her.

She doesn't want to leave her husband, doesn't want him to leave his partner, she is adamant on those points, but I think she does want it to be true that he's falling for her.

Maybe he's not the bad man taking advantage here, but from what she's told me I think she's in further than a. she intended and b. much further than he is (emotionally), whether she admits that or not.

[mrsboogie]

I have a friend/colleague who is in exactly the same situation. It means nothing to him - he will never leave hsi wife and child for her and she pretends that she feels the same but it is obvious that she interprets the guff that he gives her in order to get his leg over when drunk as something more.

I have also told her (and continue to do so) that what she is doing is pointless and a waste of her time when she could be looking for a decent bloke (which is what she says she wants, rather than being a shag on the side) but now she has developed feelings for him and enterains fantasies that his wife will kick him out and he will come to her. His wife will not do that - she certainly hasn't in the past when he has been caught having a serious long term affair.

Anyway there's nothing you can say to protect her - people will always do what they want to do.

[MorrisZapp]

I've spent the last 15 years gently trying to make my best friend more realistic about men and their motives. But it's wasted breath - affair or no affair, if she's into him then she wants him to be really into her and no amount of rational comment from you will change that. I've heard it all, from 'he won't make the first move because he's too intimidated by me', to 'he hasn't phoned me for two weeks, he must be very busy at work' to 'he's overwhelmed by his feelings for me, that's whats scaring him and making him pull away'.

I'd be careful of doing him down to her. You might want to, but at the moment she just won't accept what you say, and instead will hold it against you, or think that you are just cynical/ unromantic/ jealous or whatever.

She's heading for a fall of some type, and there will come a day when you can say your peice.

You do sound like a lovely friend, she is lucky.

[GladioliBuckets]

I would make it clear you don't want to hear about it. If she's not in a relationship then she doesn't need to go on about him, does she? She has her head up her own bum, she's not listening to him, she's not listening to you, she is in fantasyland. Tell her that this makes her a very boring friend (like someone who goes on about Weightwatchers points all day then eats loads of crap in front of you.) You might feel uncomfortable being caught up in the deceit too but she won't give a toss about your feelings. Being told she's boring might cut through the shield a bit better.

And you could always suggest she come on MN to vent her anxt and get a right good earful of common sense in response. She might even read this thread too (couldn't hurt).

[Anniegetyourgun]

Ooh, on past experience, GladioliBuckets, I rather think she'd get an earful of something... wouldn't all be common sense though.

[WhenwillIfeelnormal]

If she's asking what this means:
"he said he thought when they first started meeting it was madness, now he thinks it's fun." I'd say that before getting involved with her, he thought it might be dangerous and threatening - and now he views it as just a shag. Bet she won't want to hear that though.

I've got a friend who went through this last year. Her married man absolutely hated me (never met me), because I kept pointing out the inconsistencies and contradictions in what he said to her. Turns out I was right - and he was feeding her a crock of shite, but although I felt for her, I persistently tried to make the betrayed wife a three-dimensional person to my friend.

I do think lots of OW dehumanise the wife and this allows them to collude in the deceit and inflicting of pain on another woman. The husband in this case dehumanised the wife too, she was painted as a career obsessed nag - despite lots of factual evidence to the contrary. I had no route to him (more's the pity) but I could at least try to get my friend to walk in the wife's shoes and see her as a woman trying to raise children, all the while she was wondering why her husband was distant and being critical of her...

Try to get your friend to walk in the wife's shoes for a moment - to stop and think what it must be like to be married to someone who is deceiving you. Try to get her to see it from the child's point of view too.

It's a strange take on modern morality that as long as affair partners are "just after sex" "it's okay" isn't it?

[MorrisZapp]

Totally understand where you're coming from whenwillifeelnormal, but I think it's pointless to try to end your friend's affair by asking her to feel sorry for the guy's wife.

The wife is not the concern of the OW. Remember to the OW, she is the 'woman' not the 'other woman'. To her, the wife is the 'other woman' in her lover's life.

The only way to get her to take action is to make her see the harm she is doing to herself, and how it will all inevitably end.

Nobody ends relationships they're really into out of kindness to a stranger they've never met (and likely have heard bad things about).

[WhenwillIfeelnormal]

Actually, it did work to some extent Morris - so much so that she actually started challenging some of the stuff he was saying about his wife - he even accused them both of colluding against him! As my mate had children (now grown up) I think this tactic did work with her to some extent - she's not without empathy and could remember what life was like with young children - but of course as you say, she was besotted with him and kept hoping that it would turn out that the betrayed wife was having an affair and therefore there would be a happy ending for all.

Must admit, I was also hoping that the poor wife was cuckolding him too - and would call his bluff, but then I kept remembering that there were poor kids involved in all this and if both parents were "at it", all hell could break loose. Plus, two wrongs don't make a right, do they?

As it is, my mate is now a complete wreck as it's dawning on her that what everyone was saying was true - but I'm afraid she is one of those women who repeatedly gets herself into ridiculous relationships. Don't get me started on her ex-husband...! So as friends we are now trying to get her to analyse why she does it, as she always gets hurt - and hurts others in the process.

[GladioliBuckets]

I would guess at low self esteem and subconsciously feeling she deserves to be treated like crap, therefor being attracted to unkind/selfish/cowardly men. In which case, my 'you're boring' line of attack might be a bit like 'get confident, stupid.'

[ItsGraceAgain]

I hate when this happens! Naturally, your mate won't listen to you ... and, the more off-balance her affair makes her, the more obsessed she becomes with picking over everything they said/did/breathed/how often he blew his nose ... and the more infuriating it gets

I like the "walk in the wife's shoes" approach. It could work if she's been in the wife's shoes, otherwise she'll simply believe any old tosh he tells her about his DW.

I like even more your remark about it undermining her confidence! Can you use this - with examples - to prompt a rethink? Kind of a fresh take on "you're worth more than this", in the sense that the affair is making her worth less, due to her new insecurity?

Tbh, it's unlikely anything will put her off until he does the job himself. But I agree with you, it's worth trying to! Good luck