Need help: serious problems in my relationship...

[isitamistake]

Am a regular but have name changed for this. Really sorry as I don't particularly like name-changing, but felt I had to for this.

OK sorry if this is long! Sorry for the 'list' way I've written...:

-Have been with DP 7 years as a couple & many years before that as a friend. I always felt he was my closest person & have never loved anyone as much as I've had him
-We've had problems (intense arguments / sometimes involving screaming etc) from the start of the relationship.
-Now we have a toddler. DP is a wonderful dad & loves DS to bits & spends loads of time with him.
-DP tends to go through depressions, has always done so.
-DP never wanted children & is also very very financially wary & tight (even though we're financially comfortable). He doesn't work though & is very reluctant / scared / don't know what about it all. He's in the middle of a career change (doing a training) but I think he's taking far more time than we expected to & it doesn't seem to me that he'll be working any time soon. So most of the financial burden falls on me (which up to a point is fine).
-Our main problems atm are: the fact that he's SO anxious about money. The fact that, bizarrely, he's not willing to work. The fact that our fights (which tend to get circular & ugly) seem to be getting worse. Or at least they haven't changed. And the main thing: he just dropped the bombshell that he doesn't want a second child, it's too much of a 'burden' (in his mind), DS has really taken over his life / mind, he says he can't concentrate on his work / training (even though I do by far the biggest portion of childcare plus we have regular help). He also talks of financial reasons. I on the other hand, maybe because our relationship is more generally on the rocks, can't give up on the possibility of a second child. I feel if I did that I would simply hate him for it.
-Time is not on our side. I'm 37, he's late 40s. We'll need fertility treatment to have our second baby (that's how we had our first). He seems to change his mind every second minute about it. Only yesterday he told me three things. First, that he's not having a second child, not ever, he doesn't want it. Second, at some other point, he told me OK lets have a second child but you (me) take over responsibility / financial issues etc (which up to a point I'm already doing & would be happy to provided he started to work even for a small salary). Third thing he said, that we should put it off for a few years, but which time though I'll be over 39 & with fertility treatment involved chances will be slim.

Anyway, that's the story. Any thoughts? I'm really sad & desperate, we fight & fight & fight. We used to love each other as much as 2 people can love each other, and I guess we still do, but life has kind of gotten in the way & we can't seem to make the relationship work. I suspect he stays with me because of DS (not only, but as a major factor). He adores him & can't even imagine living apart from him (cries & goes into a panic just at the thought).

[mathanxiety]

He needs to go to a psychiatrist and get treated for his serious anxiety problems, plus depression. His personality (selfishness and immaturity, possibly narcissism) will be another matter. The idea of being so emotionally fragile that he cries and panics at the thought of beng separated from the DS is just not right. No child or partner should have the burden of this kind of possible reaction to separation hanging over them. This extreme emotional dependence on the child will be very bad for DS in the long run. It will stunt his emotional growth.

I think what he's getting from the DS is an adoring fan right now. This will change as DS gets older and shows he has a mind of his own and isn't so ready to shower unconditional love on your DP. Your DS will be incredibly torn between being true to himself and trying to maintain his father's emotional and psychological equilibrium -- a terrible choice for a child to be faced with.

What are you getting out of this relationship apart from the drama and tension of the fighting and all the financial and emotional responsibility of being a mother and the main breadwinner?

[isitamistake]

Mathanxiety, am a bit shocked by what you wrote. I suppose it all looks bad when you write it down

Well what do I get from the relationship. I never suspected his temper (which is bad) before we got together. So 7 years down the line it still shocks me. He's one of the kindest people, best listeners ever, quiet & shy with everyone that knows him. People always respond to him warmly. Very very very intelligent but also has had huge traumas in his life & is a chronic underachiever. I think he only expresses his 'other' side (horrible temper / immaturity / panics) to his partners & mum. He's only had 2 long term partners, me and another relationship before (12 years).

[isitamistake]

Also, again without going into too much detail, he is getting help, in fact, he's involved in the caring professions himself (in career change). But it doesn't seem to help He thinks it helps though. But I don't. Or at least it's not enough. Its not psychiatric help, it's therapy.

[isitamistake]

I want to say one other thing. Trying to be brutally honest here.

When I think of leaving him, I panic myself at the thought of 'what will become of him without our DS & me around'. I really really think he won't be ok without us. That's what his previous partner thought too, I think, but he was ok & then went on to have a baby (unheard of as a possibility before, for him). But I seriously don't think he's recover from not having DS at home with him, & he's told me clearly that he'd do anything to avoid that. Plus when he's in his panics (not that he means it!) he cries & says he wouldn't see DS ever again if we were to separate. That's not him being rational, I'm just describing the worst moments during the fights.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

isitamistake,

You are ultimately not responsible for your partner actions. His previous partner never thought he could manage but he has and will continue to do so. Your son and you will be further emotionally harmed by this man the longer you stay with him. Your man crying at the thought of him living apart from your son is not normal or healthy at all. It also could possibly be seen as highly manipulative and emotionally abusive on his part.

Re this comment:-

"He's one of the kindest people, best listeners ever, quiet & shy with everyone that knows him. People always respond to him warmly. Very very very intelligent but also has had huge traumas in his life & is a chronic underachiever"

Can you not see any contradiction here?. He can to some extent control his actions because he is "nice" to other people. Many abusive men are nice and perfectly plausible to those in the outside world. You as his partner are getting the backwash of his dysfunction as his previous partners likely did.

You are both teaching your son damaging lessons here regarding relationships. All that there is in this are great highs and deep lows. This is all drama and a dramatic relationship like this is no healthy relationship role model for your son to be witness to and be a part of.

It sounds like his DS is his "supply" which is what narcissistic people need.

You did not really answer either what if anything you are getting out of this relationship now. The answer you gave was with reference mainly as to how he acts with other people and his previous partners. There is nothing in that answer about how you personally feel. In view of this I presume you are getting precisely zero from this dysfunctional relationship because this is precisely what this all is.

Put you and your son first NOW.

[mathanxiety]

If he does this during fights, than he's a manipulator. I suspect he has trained you pretty well to think of his welfare before your own if you worry about what would happen to him if you ended the relationship.

I really recommend psychiatric help -- sorry to be blunt here. Career changing into the caring professions may be in fact an indication that he knows he needs help. Some people in the caring area are there to satisfy ego needs of their own while fooling themselves and trying to fool others that they are in control of themselves and on top of things.

The anger, panicking, immaturity and underachieving all spell depression. The all or nothing irrationality points to a personality disorder (black and white thinking), as does the manipulation and reserving his worst side for women he is very close to, while others see only the shy, good listener, intelligent and good natured side.

[hetherine]

i'M sorry to say this but those ladies are absolutely spot on. you need to think about DS and yourself and not DP. You can only ever make yourself happy. no one should ever put themselves into an enviroment where another adults feelings/opinions/thoughts/desires etc completely overshadow if not overwhelm their own. when the above happens it is nothing more than abuse all you're left doing is walking on eggshells and no matter how careful you are they break. so end this relationship now get legal advice on how best to structure the contact between DP and DS and don't worry about how DP will cope as manipulators always come up smelling of rosees even though they reckon the the only aroma there is is manure.
I hope things work out for you and DS

[isitamistake]

Some of the things you've written are correct (& quite shocking if I'm honest).

However, people are not psychiatric labels nor are they caricatures. My dp is partly some of the things you've said, but there's a big part of him that's other things too. The things I said about him which may have come through as the way he is to other people are all part of him nevertheless. We still communicate (on some levels) very very well. Obviously on some levels we don't. I also love him very much & I've loved him for many years, in many ways. Not all them dysfunctional by any means! People are not black or white, not one or the other. He's not a monster. I believe he's quite unhappy though (although not always & not about everything, eg he's lovely with ds).

People don't break up from one day to the next. certainly not when there's a very young child involved! I'm a bit surprised by the ease with which some people say 'leave him'. I would try everything to keep our family together, I do need help to try & think through the situation.

[Spero]

Of course you shouldn't just break up on a whim when there is a young child involved.

But he is over 40 and his behaviour is therefore unlikely to change without serious professional intervention and a genuine will on his part to work at it.

And surely you agree that change it must, or your child will end up just as damaged as he would be by a bitter breakup.

If you are just fighting in a vicious circle, I do think you need outside help to try and move this on. If he won't agree, then I think you have your answer.

[mathanxiety]

He is a self-contained package, and the rough and the smooth are all mixed up together. We all are, tbh. But you are not the only one who needs to try everything to keep the family together. This is beyond the capability of one person.

There's a lot of middle ground between writing him off and accepting him warts and all. You can love the good parts and urge him to get real help in the areas where he's struggling, with the possibility of a much happier life for you and for him, and for your DS if he's willing to give it a shot. But he will have to accept the need for effort on his part, and to work sincerely for the good of the three of you. For all of this to start, however, he needs to have it pointed out to him that there's much room for improvement.

[cestlavielife]

why would he not see Ds if you were to separate? that is not logical or rational - it is emotional manipulation...

the people who are saying "leave" have expereinced or seen at close hand what it is to live with a "depressive" manipulator - i say in quotes because while he may genuinely have issues it is sometimes ahrd to see when the mental health issue ends and the controlled manipulator begins...

my exP "cannot live without" us - yet he clearly is doing so. just not very well....but two years down the line of being totally separated it just becomes ridiculous... when he continues to say things like "you are my life and i cannot live without you" - it becomes obsession/manipulation...

i think you both need help - maybe separately seeking counselling rather than together at this point?

fighting and fighting is not a good atmosphere for your ds at all. it has to stop one way or another....

[mathanxiety]

Yes, separate counselling might be a very good thing. Fighting in circles is exhausting.

[hetherine]

a long time ago (20 years to be exact) i was married to a chap who thought nothing of punching doors walls etc when hen couldn't get his own way. he would also lie. when i was very near to giving birth to my second child he actually spent money that was needed for my hospital things on of all things 2 ft tall teenage mutant ninja turtle (this is true i swear) he just couldn't see why i was so upset. any way long story short after a lot more emotional abuse and sadly death of second baby we split up he proffessed that he couldn't do without me etc but guess what he's still in the land of the living and has had many more partners. i know that your dp is good and bad we all are and yes that does make things hard to bear. but if he is not going to listen to reason and appreciate your points of veiw then honestly what else can you do? sooner or later you are going to have to put yours and and ds's mental wellbeing and happiness before his. he is a grown man and has family and friends to turn to so he won't be alone and any manipulation is wrong repeat WRONG

[Anniegetyourgun]

Cestlavielife: "while he may genuinely have issues it is sometimes hard to see when the mental health issue ends and the controlled manipulator begins" - oh, absolutely!

The OP's partner sounds really, really like my XH (except for the DC - we had four). He was always going to make a lot of money one day, too, but never did; and every argument was "the end" of our relationship even though, like the OP, I'd have done anything to keep us together. So WHY does he keep crying that he'll never see the child again? Did you threaten him with splitting up/keeping him from his son (I bet you didn't)? Is he just saying it to get you to keep on promising it will never come to that?

You note I say XH. In the end I had to leave for my own sanity, which some 16 months on is slowly recovering. We initially agreed to 50/50 shared care of DS4, but the school has recently asked me to take over as much as possible because DS was showing marked signs of emotional suffering during the weeks he was with his dad. I don't wish harm on the old fool, but children's welfare comes before parents', that's just how it's got to be.

[mathanxiety]

My thoughts on your problem are also from the perspective of being an ex wife. ExH threatened suicide, in my case. When that failed to get the concrete result he expected he changed his tune to blaming me for driving him to suicide.

Ultimately, there are some people who don't understand what a win-win situation might be. In the case of my ex, he made it clear that the relationship would be his way or no way. A good relationship as far as he was concerned would be a win for him and necessarily a corresponding loss for me. I was forced to admit this after many years of feeling I was slowly being destroyed and wondering why.

[queenofdenial2009]

Hmmm, it's very tricky. I agree that he probably is very unhappy and most likely depressed. But, but, but...

He reminds me far too much of my ex and that didn't turn out well either. Actually you remind me of myself six months ago and the clue is in my name.

No, you don't want your family to split up nor do you want your relationship to not work out. But it's not working and you need to do something. The trouble is once you start knowing this sort of stuff, you can't un-know it IYSWIM.

I definitely think you should consider going for counselling yourself. I would also read the Lundy Bancroft book 'Why Does He Do That'. I think that could really help you.

One question: how would you feel if he died? When I had all these thoughts swirling around in my mind, I asked myself this and knew I would just feel relief. Not good is it?

[mathanxiety]

QoD, I felt that feeling too . And the suicide threats had the effect of completely alienating me from him. I caught myself muttering in my head "why don't you bloody well get on with it then?" Not my proudest moment.

[AboardtheAxiom]

I am going to echo everything already said on here too.

Why not look into counselling/therapy for yourself?

QoD and mathanxiety - yup, I thought that too!

[mathanxiety]

Hello ATA

[AboardtheAxiom]

Hi math!

[SolidGoldBangers]

He won't kill himself if you bin him, you know. He will run whining to the next woman about how all his XPs mistreated and misunderstood him, she will think, 'Oh poor baby' and he will fuck her head up as well.
You can't fix self-obsessed whiners, you just have to keep them at a distance.

[mathanxiety]

So true, SGB. This is what mine did; even before he left he had the next idiot lined up. And I found out he had whined all over town about what a bitch I was, how he had expected daily to come home at night and find I had changed the locks and turned him out on the street...

If your DP ever threatens suicide, though, call emergency services immediately. I was told by the police after ExH had called 3 suicide hotlines one night (they notified police automatically after the third call) that the police will take anyone threatening suicide to the A&E for assessment if you ask the to. Don't try to assess the danger level yourself. The police would prefer not to have to investigate or photograph or clean up the scene of a suicide.

[isitamistake]

I love my DP & I feel I need to explain.
He is not self obsessed (the opposite, I would say, talks about himself only to very close people).
Certainly not a whiner (rarely whines, I whine much more!)
He is NOT a 'self obsessed whiner' (as SolidGoldBangers suggested). Not sure where you got the idea in my OP that he is?
And he has never ever threatened suicide!! Where did you all get that idea? He's depressed, yes, at times (although he has periods where he's much more functional & does well, and also his depressions are never paralysing i.e. he still looks after his boy, still does his training etc).
He has found it a challenge to be a father. He has found it emotionally overwhelming, I think. He never wanted children & I admit I pushed him in order to have DS. He loves him hugely & looks after him properly (there's nothing in the way he looks after him that I have concerns about!) Its just sometimes, at his worst moments, during fights (to which DS is never a witness) he panics that if I leave him he'll be apart from his son. It's not as if he says these things all the time, and we have perfectly rational conversations about the problems in our relationship where he never talks in that kind of emotional 'state'. Its only in certain moments that he's like that (but that's serious enough, I know!)

I know that all of you are certainly trying to help, but there's something in some of your responses that doesn't feel quite right. Perhaps because each situation is unique & everyone responding (maybe not everyone, but a few) have had experiences which they feel are similar so are reading bits & pieces of their own experience into mine. Which is not necessarily helpful although some of your comments have made me think.

As for counselling, I'm already in therapy (for a few years now) & it's very helpful. We also do therapy as a couple since last year because I told him our problems are serious & he agrees. Since the therapy our fights have decreased hugely but this week we had this fight & I felt despair again.

Your comments, however, have made me think. SO I made a decision. That I'm not going to make the mistake I made a few years ago & push him into having another child. However much I would theoretically like another child, I won't have one & won't push him unless things change significantly in the relationship. I told him this after reading all your comments & said I think we have serious issues, we need to work on them & I'm not even thinking of a second child until there's a change that's tangible. Subsequently (during this week) we've had 2-3 very long conversations which were not necessarily completely successful on every level (e.g. he often feels that I criticize him relentlessly) but they were not bad actually.

The main thing is that we definitely love each other (which I wrote at least twice in my OP) & have loved each other in many ways for years and years. I enjoy his company, he makes me laugh, he's my best friend & lover. He is a man who has problems. I need to learn (as you lot have said) that I can't 'fix' him which I suspect I've been trying to do for years...

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

One good thing from all this is that you will now not be trying for a second child.

You two are not good for each other and never will be. Your ideas of love towards each other are unhealthy. You're also making the time honoured mistake in acting as his rescuer and or saviour as undoubtedly his last partner did (till she saw that nothing she ever did for him made him any better). You are not responsible for his depressions.

I think as well this is all one way on your part; you are so desparate to keep all this mess together that any rational thought process on your part goes out the window. He therefore continues to do nothing to want to change things for the better between you. You're the only one doing all the work here.

Goodness alone knows what all this infighting is doing to your child. Your DS may never witness any in fighting but a child would pick up on any underlying tensions between parents.

What's he learning from you both about relationships?.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

isitamistake,

You did not really answer previously what if anything you are getting out of this relationship now. The answer you gave was with reference mainly as to how he acts with other people and his previous partners. There is nothing in that answer about how you personally feel. In view of this I presume you are getting precisely zero from this dysfunctional relationship because this is precisely what this all is.

I would also argue that none of the couples therapy you have had to date is actually working. If you have been seeing the same counsellor for a long time then perhaps too it is time now for a different approach. I am glad that therapy has been helpful but there is therapy and there is therapy.

Where do you want to be in say a year or two's time?.

If this is what you ultimately want out of a relationship then that is your perogative. You cannot write all the problematic stuff and at the same time not really want to take on board replies which are undoubtedly uncomfortable for you to read. It makes me think you just want someone to say, "yes you're fine really, there there". If another poster thinks he is a "self obsessed whiner" this is purely based on what you have written about him.