Hi! Shall check it out tomorrow (off to bed, should have been there already..) Have a good day tomorrow

lol dpr! I sent you a song

Just in case Whatanother's MIL or SIL are reading this -

LOOK AT YOUR SON/BROTHER

He is at best disrespectful and immature, at worst abusive. He sets kitchen timers to stop his wife getting enough sleep, runs up debts that she has to help clear, and makes his own children cry in order to make her feel bad.

So maybe you should cut her some slack. And give her some respect. And maybe you should give your son/brother the stiff talking-to which is the least of his needs.

OK?

you know I am restricted as to what I write on here. Do you have my email? send me a message

Well he can't make you be in a relationship with him if you don't want to. We're not in Victorian times anymore.

I hope to goodness you are seeing solicitors and making concrete plans whatanother.

This morning he asked very sweetly if I had slept well. I'd forgotten about the timer incident, because of then course I hadn't been woken up by it and so had had a relatively good night. Later I remembered it and asked if he knew anything about the timer going off at 12.45am. Of course he didn't. I seem to have woken up with a bit more perspective this morning - also have found that with all the cycling I've been doing, I've got a "waist" again.

H also gave me the "ins and outs" about a couple we know who have split up recently. Lots of info. . . When I asked him how he'd found out, he said the man he's been "talking to" had told him. When I asked him if he was happy discussing our situation with someone who so easily divulged details of other people's relationships, he started to say something, then couldn't!
And guess what, it's 12.44 am and a timer has just gone off in the bedroom. It would have woken me up if I'd been asleep. I wondered why the kitchen timers had suddenly appeared in my bedroom . I'm sure he'd know nothing about it if questioned though.

Ok, well, today was hot. Decided to take DCs to park for picnic after school. When we got home, H was there and wanted to come, asked in front of DC's and then started crying because I didn't want him to. I told him to stop, he said no. . . . . So, I ended up making sandwiches for everyone, they went to the park while I went somewhere else on the bike to eat my tea on my own. Of course it was good on the bike in the sun,I did just under 10 miles in total, I found a nice spot to eat, ate, lay down and fell asleep in the sun for a good half hour or more, then woke up and cycled home, but . . . Why should I have missed out on the picnic? When I thought about him coming, I started crying uncontrollably. I told him I couldn't do this any more (again) and he said - "Yes you can, I'm going to fight" (again) leaving us at a stalemate.
I went out to see my friend's band play (on my own!) and sat there thinking "men are arses" for most of the evening. But better than sitting at home thinking it.

Just a quick post to say I'm away from all computers now till Monday. Hopefully I'll come back to some good news? I can see why you want to see Relate, because you're a person of your word. I do believe that once you've told the counsellor what's going on, he or she will be explaining to H that they can't counsel abusive relationships...

Re the telling him to go - would it be worth seeing if one of the church 'friends' will take him in temporarily? Not by actually saying 'absence makes the heart grow fonder'... Give you some breathing space?

Anyway, hope you have a good weekend, have compiled your notes for Relate (those examples you gave earlier would be good), and get lots of bike rides in.

xx

No it's not the childcare aspect. It's just that I said I'd try relate and I haven't done that yet. I have also repeatedly told him to go, and he won't.

Excellent post dittany.

Marriage for life: But you should have a working understanding for the existence and acceptance of divorce, by now, too.

Re: facebook-This is why I said avoid it. Can you manage it better? Just print or screen shot or some kind of record without reading it? Or set aside a specific time once a week (whatever interval) to (take that toxic bath) read through it?

Have you set up a time frame for action, WANC? What is holding you back? Is it childcare- while you exercise/perform? If you never exercised or performed again, WANC, splitting will still be the best/right thing to do for your mental health and that of your dc-for their entire lives. Don't you think?

I wish you luck.
I am taking a break from MN/computer for a while to devote more time to me-I am going to start sewing quilts again.

It's not a particular church. It's several that we've been to over the years. The trouble is that if something upset's people's worldview, it must be "wrong". I totally believe in the whole "marriage for life" thing and monogamy, which is why I think this has been so difficult for me.

He loves the idea of having a wife, not you as a person. And I'm sorry but that's what some churches teach, even as a subtext, that every man has the right to own a woman. It's not spelt out directly otherwise the women would be leaving in droves. Instead it's dressed up as god or "love" and you can't argue with god or love can you? Just as a matter of interest, how did you get involved with this church, because it seems deeply entwined with your marriage and his behaviour towards you.

A friend who tells you she wants you to stay with the man who is making you so unhappy isn't really your friend except on a very superficial level.

"I want to hug her, I love the way she smells, I love the sound of her sleeping peacefully next to me"

This is how you love a cat or a pet rabbit. There is no acknowledgement at all of your humanity, your personality, your needs (just his), or the fact that he makes you dreadfully unhappy. It's just schmalzy Hallmark stuff.

Another answer about looking back on the journey and how the God of love knows. . . . LOVE!!!
Why can't people understand that just because someone says they love someone, doesn't necessarily mean they do. I don't want someone saying they love me I want them to actually love me, without having to say it, because the way they are with me just shows that they do. Otherwise I don't want anything. Aaaargh!!!
What is wrong with people???
Talk is so cheap.
I used to ring H at work, at the end of the day if I'd had a hard day and was feeling ill, and he'd never answer the phone. Once I shut the index finger of my left hand (guitar finger!!!) in the car door and got a deep gash, bruised the nerve, couldn't feel anything and he still wouldn't answer the phone. In the end I had to drive home, get my friend to take me down to the chemist and steri-strip my finger. OM found out and was furious saying I should have dropped my kids at his and gone to hospital. When H came home, he didn't even ask how it was. Another time I came off my bike on the ice on the way to work. No one was around, I was OK but grazed, bruised and shaken. At the end of the day I held up my arm to show him (wanting a bit of sympathy) and he shouted "Yes I know!" and went into another room.
Why can no one understand that I have had enough? I have had another message from my friend saying she wants us to stay together. H has put loads of stuff on fb such as I love my wife, I want to hug her, I love the way she smells, I love the sound of her sleeping peacefully next to me <<< Aaaargh!>>>> Sleep - Hah!!
Aaaargh!
Every time I go on there is all this CRAP (sorry) written up there. It's unbearable.

Well it was my carefully considered professional opinion (professional Mumsnetter opinion that is ).

Second DreadPirate's suggestion about a new church. This bunch of chaps are clearly sticking together.

Oh, good grief- "didn't want to take sides", really?
Hasn't he already?! I can feel the condescension from here, such a non-answer to do nothing but lay a guilt trip on you.

Good responding in the moment on your side though, well done.

loony-bonkersness snortle giggle .

So many people you don't need in your life... Are you tempted to start going to another church? Maybe take the kids as a broadening their education type thing?

Got his reply. It was along the lines of ."I'm sad because you're sad" and "neither of you can carry on the way it was" because until I said I wasn't happy and wanted out, H was blissfully oblivious! He also said he didn't want to take sides and that I was "brave to reply". So . Just feel condescended to and patronised. He'd also said, in his first message that he "felt for" the kids and how he'd seen dd1 walking to school looking as he she had the "weight of the world" on her shoulders. I pointed out that she was fed up because she was late for school, knew she was going to get into trouble and was tired after a weekend away camping with other teenagers. He replied "Oh yes she looked tired." Why do men think women need to be talked down to?
<<<noise of frustration and general annoyance>>>

I'm chuckling too - well, more of a chortle

Ha ha dit, "loony-bonkersness" anyone else chuckle at that word, or is it just the endorphins still in my system. Lol.

Oh boy, the reply to that one should be interesting. Love the thought of you bombarding him with an "H-like spiel" (I bet yours actually made sense though and wasn't a masterpiece of loony-bonkersness and illogic).

Did a 5.5mile walk today instead of the bike. I have to say that making sure I do something physical every day is what's keeping me sane. Would recommend it to anyone in the same position. It just gives me time to think. Look at the state I was in on Monday because I'd had a 'rest day' on Sunday after my 16mile stint on Saturday morning. The friend that H has been talking to on fb sent me a message saying I could talk to him. I sent him an H-like spiel asking if God thought it was ok to be unhappy and to be bullied. Not had a reply yet. I expect he's shocked.

Can't get too technical but looking into things.
More together because was able to do 11.5 miles on the bike in the evening. Always helps me think straight and sorts my head out. I cycled along by the sea and out in the fields.

Can you start to separate the accounts? If he's running up more credit card debt, then you don't want that associated with your own current account...

Hmmmm is he in a position to financial screw you? I'm quite alarmed by his behviour over looking at bank accounts etc.

Done now, sorry for double posting at end.

Done now, sorry for double posting at end.

You sound very together tonight whatanother. Good for you for standing up to him when he was trying to do his machinations or whatever he was up to on the computer.

It sounds like his dad is feeding him instructions perhaps.

Anyone else notice the discrepancy in the fact that he's been trying to touch / get near me for ages, and then suddenly wont let me sit on the same sofa as him. I wasn't close or looking at the screen and couldn't see what he was doing

Anyone else notice the discrepancy in the fact that he's been trying to touch / get near me for ages, and then suddenly wont let me sit on the same sofa as him. I wasn't close or looking at the screen and couldn't see what he was doing

. . . . as I have also noticed that he has rather a lot of messages from women on his fb acct, some signed "x" - the very thing he berated me about for OM's txts. "what would you say if women sent me messages like that." Duh?
Also he says he has lost his id toggle so that's why he needed me to log in for him. .
Also told my friend what H said about wanting to talk to her H about what he said re H not helping me do my work for the course, (which was only 'why hasn't he') and she said . . . . . "Bring it on, it's scriptural to help your wife"

Long, sorry Dd3 (7) made me laugh today. We were walking home and she asked "Mummy is everything ok with you and Daddy?" so I said, calmly, "No darling, it isn't, but it's ok." and gave her a hug. Two minutes later ds (10) announced that he was thinking up lines to help him "get girls" I know! But I explained that it was better to be yourself and have someone like you for you, than to just like your jokes. Ds then asked "Is that what happened when you met Dad?" to which dd3 (with knowing sideways glance at me) said "I think we should talk about something else!" I love my kids! Also dd1 (14) got annoyed with H because he took her ipod, re-wrote its name on the computer to his and rearranged / deleted her songs.
She kept saying "Why would anyone do that?"
Also fil rang, and later H asked to log onto the computer banking using my id saying he wanted to look at the accounts and our spending. so I logged him on but stayed in the room, sitting on the sofa near him, which he didn't like and eventually he moved. He apparently got timed out , odd because he was pressing buttons frequently and asked me to log on again and seemed quite impatient this time. I stayed till he'd finished and when I checked that he'd logged out, I noticed he'd logged onto his credit card account. Later he came upstairs and asked me to log on again so he could check which bills had gone out. I said ok but do it here. When I was logging on this time I noticed the "remember my id" box was ticked this time so I unticked it. He asked why he had to stay. I said as an ex bank worker I'm very cagey about anyone using my id to do financial stuff. He grudgingly bought it. That's more financial stuff in one evening than in the last year for him. Am I not meant to be wary, especially after he's had a long chat with fil who has already tried to help finance divorce proceedings. OM has contacted me. Don't care anymore, H is practically telling everyone I sh**ed him. I WONT, DON'T WORRY! But I've stopped being precious, . . . . .

I'm not really sure TMSB. I don't like FaceBook at all exactly because of these types of things. My gut instinct would be to ignore it in that context, all the while collecting evidence from it for any future legal proceedings. (Take screenshots of it too whatanother - just ask your PCs help function if you don't know how to do it).

I think the sort of people who are listening to her dh aren't actually the sort of people worth bothering about. We saw his litany of self-justification on the other thread. People who are taken in by that kind of thing probably aren't worth trying to persuade.

Yes, dittany, I was thinking about that. Print the crap out, WANC, and give to your lawyer. But dispassionately-the more crap he dishes out will be the better for your circumstances with the divorce, won't it? But don't let it upset you-it is validity and clarity. And probably par for the course for divorce territory.

But don't let it upset you; people will think what they will. Your character is obviously more well grounded and good as demonstrated by your behavior than your h's. He may think he is getting the upper hand in smearing you, but I really think that will backfire on him ultimately.

Dittany, would it do any good for WANC to not say anything to h, but post rebuttal/denials to the lies on her FB page? Just a form statement-maybe suggesting that others check with her about the validity of anything posted about her. This may include a phrase that these slanderous/libelous statements will be pursued legally. And post it (the same form statement) as a timely response to anything he says on FB. WANC-ask your lawyer about this, especially if you have a job that deals with the public.

WNAC, I do still believe that the sooner the physical split of living arrangements is done the better it will be for your dc. I am not sure about the ages of your dc, but I think it might be ok to explain his outbursts as a simple compairson to the tantrums of a small child. "He can't have his way right now, so he is just having a meltdown. He'll get over it soon. Nothing to worry about." And it sounds like it isn't that far from the truth.

Re: h hanging around the single lady in front of you--good for you for the snicker...
it would be hard not to encourage the association with gusto...but I guess do nothing. Not getting upset-you win. So enough. But encouraging the other relationship for him would relieve you of his attentions for a while anyway-tempting.

I have not been through divorce, so my thoughts may be off the mark (sorry ). You have probably already done so, but if not, check out the other threads about it.

I would actually say that looking at FaceBook is quite a good move. Whatanother needs some proof that her suspicions are correct given that she's being met with a wall of lies from her husband and a wall of enabling of him by the church people. It's hard to think straight when your reality is being undermined like that.

Ok, so he didn't change.

You have had some clarity. Then your friends stirred the pot.

The lies are really a "last straw".

I was going to say give it 3 weeks for H to blow his top, 3 days...what was it-3 hours?

1) "It is already over, and I am not going back."

2) Why on earth would you ever look on Facebook again? Just don't. Bait Bait BAIT.

3) Find another church for you & dc today.

4) Have the divorce papers ready asap and give them to him the day after your relate session. Or have him professionally served-at church? ouch...that might be too delicious.

5) Lock door/put stick under knob for privacy...he won't know unless he tries to disturb you against your agreement.

5) I don't know your school schedule, but get this going before the next main session starts-fall? That will be better for the dc than waiting-and drawing this out. Dc tummy ache is anxiety. Resolve this soon for them WANC.

Sorry this is choppy- not much time. I'll check back later.

you can live seperately short or long term perhaps?

I just feel as if I can't take all this stress. Honestly! Sometimes I just want to walk out and never come back. I'm only here for the dc's now. I feel like screaming.
AAAAaaaarrrrgh!!!!!!!!

Just try and look to the future.

It's very clear in the bible that the husband is held accountable for his responsibilities (spiritual and otherwise) towards his wife and children - I think your dh is in for a huge shock because of course God sees through all the lies he has convinced himself of. Has your husband behaved has Christ would, been loving, kind, respectful, considerate, put your needs before his, been prepared to die for - thought not .

yes, but this man has said he's not sure he knows the full story. I feel bad actually because I looked at his facebook account to find this out, and I could not believe it. I'm not sure why I did it, just a had a feeling, but I'm shocked. He told me he had only had a couple of chats with this man, actually there are 22 messages, a lot of them quite long, as is his style, (you can see if you look at the old thread herewhich is quite long. Feel really bad actually, but I know that I have to go through this. It can't stay as it was.

I'm so for you.

I'm sure that there are men at your church that stick together mainly because he is so manipulative and lies so convincingly he gives off a saintly act to all those around who can't see through him.

Keep venting here it will stop you doing something reckless like cutting his lying tongue off such as screaming like a banishee at him.

bedroom

Also found out he has been lying about me, telling someone that OM was texting me and telling me to leave him etc, which is completely untrue. I can't understand why he would say all this stuff about loving me and wanting us to be together and yet still be doing so much negative stuff behind my back. Also because my friend's husband, who helped me a bit with my work assignment asked his wife (my very good friend)why H hadn't helped me, H said he wanted to "talk to" him???
You are right, he is so making himself out to be the victim here and me as the big bad brazen hussy who has had an affair (I haven't - part of me almost wishes I had, but I so don't believe in them) and who just wants to rip the family apart, and isn't trying. It's so hard when you've given yourself to someone for so long and trusted them and believed that things were ok, but that you were at fault for any issues. I have spent so long sitting and crying over this. I just need to focus. Phew!!!

<<<<<<makes an indefineable and unspellable noise to portray frustration>>>>>

He tried to walk into the bedromm this morning when I was dressing. When I said wait I'm dressing, he said "why" and started crying. loudly. The younger dcs all saw and the middle two then came to me for a hug complaining of tummy ache and feeling sick.
I feel so sad about all of this. It's so horrible for the kids especially for dd1 because she really loves him and gets on with him really well, and I'm worried for her most of all.

Typo - our church not your church? Also I was talking about my H in second para, not my friend's.

And yes QS earplugs are definately on my shopping list!
I've a week until relate and then . . .

Also sil rang up and was quite rude and abrupt to me on the phone, even for her. When I told H he just said "Oh" mind you he's been allowing her (and other people) to be rude to me for the last 11years, why should I expect anything different now. So much for his turnaround.

I really think it was more of the cargirl thing. We have been on holiday with them, and my friend's H has taken H off and got him washing up etc. And they don't go to your church, my friend was there when he gave me this hug.

Also despite sulking and grunting at me all afternoon, he found the time and inclination to get embroiled in a long chat with a single mum who goes to our church. They were packing up together very companionably when I walked up and I had to stifle the urge to laugh out loud.
Good luck to her, I thought and chuckled. I have to thank you all again for your support and say how much better I'm feeling now that I've separated from people who tell me that my feelings don't matter and that I'm paranoid. Immeasurably better.

WANC - nothing useful to add, other than, have you ever thought of buying yourself a pair of earplugs?

It's hardly seeing everybody as a domineering controlling person noting that the men in this church appear to stick together.

I wasn't the only person who noticed it, TMSB noticed it too.

I think words would be more useful in this context TBH - "You're husband is abusive and nobody in the church would blame you if you divorce him". I notice the women in this situation have either been listening to whatanother or sharing their own stories (with one uselsess enabling exception).

I don't think you can automatically assume that this friend is the same as her H!!! It could have been a silent hug in support of her going through an awful time with her controlling dh!

There is a difference between keeping your barriers up and seeing everyone as a domineering controlling person.

She might have been completely worn down so she has no resistance left. The silent hug from the male part of the pair set off alarm bells for me too. It's far too much the big man controlling the little woman, this time by pacifying her. If anybody was going to hug you it should have been his wife.

"God had forgiven him"

Well god might have but that doesn't mean you have to. I'm betting that bloke yesterday told him this. It's just not on. Next time if something like this comes up say that you've spoken to god too and he told you he hasn't forgiven him in fact. (Well don't, but you need these kind of defenses).

This religion thing is being used as a total manipulation to get you to stay with him. Can you see it?

Just one other thing, the next time he is feeding you his crap I was thinking maybe you should imagine him as Pinocchio and watch his nose growing long. You could even imagine him in short trousers and a little hat with a feather in it. I just think you need some more defenses against him, even silly ones, maybe especially silly ones.

why was he sulking?????

It sounds like a nightmare tbh.

I know also what you are saying, tmsb, about them "appearing" to be wonderful, but you'd have to meet them. He helps and does loads around the house, is very financially astute, plays with their son. They aren't perfect but she is happy. She does not burst into tears at the thought of spending the rest of her life with her H. As I do. And I did several times this morning during the process of trying to be nice to him as it was his birthday.

No, he doesn't hug often, but they really are very special friends and he is a good man.
However, today was H's birthday. I got him a small present (no money) and card, then made him a cooked breakfast, even let him give me a hug to say thank you. Then while he went to church with the kids, I baked marble fairy cakes with chocolate butter cream icing and got curry and roti ready for lunch. When they got back, the kids told me that there was a church picnic on so I wrapped all the food up in towels and took it out to the park. H ate his food, went to play "catch" with one of the other men. I wandered off and met a friend who I had a long chat with. She's in the same position as me, but further on. For the rest of the afternoon, H sulked and spoke to me in grunts. Then later he went out then texted me that he loved me, that God had forgiven him and he (H ) wanted us to be together as a family. I couldn't answer as the texts made me so angry. When he came back I expected a barraging, but there was nothing. He wasn't around when I was giving the kids tea, and it was nice.

Hi WANC
How are you doing today?

I wasn't going to post on this, because subtlety is tricky. It is really almost down to splitting hairs. But that is what the manipulators do.

I am glad you had a good time with friends and I am also glad you still have your barriers up because

imho

he is starting over with you.

If he has truly changed, that is good, nay, really great! But in reality what are the chances that he has really changed? I would have doubts about it, but that is just me.

His dismissiveness of the recent conversation about more space is a red flag. It is super great that you noticed that!

The "making plans" is a strategy to keep you hooked in with obligations that you "promised" to do whatever. Then if you don't-back on the drama triangle (villain).

Don't make plans, be evasive. "You could not possibly schedule anything that far ahead" (even a week ).

Does your friend's husband hug you often? That just sounded a little off to me. And, well, sorry about this too, but the beginning of the thread is about how everyone else thought your dh was so wonderful and you were a wonderful couple. So this "wonderful couple" that you had over... ...maybe they have some skeletons in their closets because it sounds like friend's h may have been coaching yours in the fine arts of manipulation, especially if h's behavior seemed on a brand new direction after this 'meeting'.

He hugged you and said nothing. Did you have any kind of little feeling at all about it? Did your friend see it-what did she say?

Keep your guard up and stay focused.

We had more church friends round today. A couple. H took the man out into the garden and spent quite a long time talking to him while I talked to his wife. They really are a wonderful couple. After H finished talking, my friend's husband came in and gave me a hug. Said nothing. We had a chilled out time and H has not barraged at all and we've even laughed at stuff without him trying to get close or touch me. However, my barriers are still up. He keeps acting as if the recent conversation regarding more space never occurred and talking about what we are going to do next year and so on. Which obviously is very subtle. It has been a nice day. I did 16 miles on the bike and am feeling it. The only thing was I found his thyroid meds had been left out on the dressing table. Not good when 3year old wandering about. . I'm knackered now. Hope I sleep.

Dpr I will do that as soon as I work out how to, in my experience they are too large to email. I may open a myspace account. Cargirl H has come on mn and looked at and added to my threads before, so I limit what I say on here now with regard to "official stuff."
Once again he has not put the kids to bed properly so dd4 is still up and she's been shattered all day and when I came upstairs he had covered half the bed with clean laundry again. Last time he blamed dd1. This time he can't because she's not here. He's been out of the house since 8 - .

thinking of you.

Have you booked an appointment with a solicitor or anything? Perhaps the only way forward is to issue divorce proceedings?

Brilliant! Send me one?!

I am feeling almost high at the moment. I have found a way of buying songs on the internet so that I can listen to them on my phone, and have managed to download my own songs onto the computer, a step away from putting them on the internet. And no help from any man!

Will do, DP.

Whatanother, well done for doing the piece of work. You won that battle and I'm in awe of the nine mile bike ride.

I know I was forceful, but it was more to counteract the force of the attack that I know you are under from him and his cronies.

- just cut and paste -

Thanks everyone. And dpr I really appreciate you typing all that out for me. Dit, don't worry, I'm quite stubborn when I want to be. It is hard though when you are so tired and someone keeps on saying that none of this is deliberate and that it's all my mis-perception and paranoia.

I got it done, but it was a poor excuse for a piece of work. I submitted it with an apology. The lady that runs the course understands the situation though. At least I did it. Went for a 9mile bike ride this morning so am feeling better in myself though tired. This morning at 5.30 i I was far too shattered etc to go out to work for 2 hours so going to do it tomorrow. He's being encouraging today, so . . .

One other thing - just thought I'd copy this in for you - don't know whether you've got/read any Lundy Bancroft yet, but this is what he says about the confusion between love and abuse in the mind of the abuser... Might help you keep your perspective?

" So is [the abusive man] lying when he says he loves you? No, usually not. Most of my clients do feel a powerful sensation inside that they call love. For many of them it is the only kind of feeling toward a female partner that they have ever had, so they have no way of knowing that it isn’t love. When an abusive man feels the powerful stirring inside that other people call love, he is probably largely feeling:

* The desire to have you devote your life to keeping him happy with no outside interference
* The desire to have sexual access
* The desire to impress others by having you be his partner
* The desire to possess and control you

These desires are important aspects of what romantic love means to him. He may well be capable of feeling genuine love for you, but first he will have to dramatically reorient his outlook in order to separate abusive and possessive desires from true caring, and become able to really see you.

The confusion of love with abuse is what allows abusers who kill their partners to make the absurd claim that they were driven by the depths of their loving feelings. The news media regrettably often accept the aggressors’ view of these acts, describing them as “crimes of passion.” But what could more thoroughly prove that a man did not love his partner? If a mother were to kill one of her children, would we ever accept the claim that she did it because she was overwhelmed by how much she cared? Not for an instant. Nor should we. Genuine love means respecting the humanity of the other person, wanting what is best for him or her, and supporting the other person’s self-esteem and independence. This kind of love is incompatible with abuse and coercion.

…Abusive men come in every personality type, arise from good childhoods and bad, are macho men or gentle, “liberated” men. No psychological test can distinguish an abusive man from a respectful one. Abusiveness is not a product of a man’s emotional injuries or of deficits in his skills…Abuse is a problem of values, not psychology. When someone challenges an abuser’s attitudes and beliefs, he tends to reveal the contemptuous and insulting personality that normally stays hidden, reserved for private attacks on his partner. An abuser tries to keep everyone — his partner, his therapist, his friends and relatives — focused on how he feels, so that they won’t focus on how he thinks, perhaps because on some level he is aware that if you grasp the true nature of his problem, you will then be able to escape his domination."

I can't say anything better than Dittany has! Just to let you know I'm thinking about you, and I know you'll find the strength to do what you need to do.

xx

btw - Dittany - would you mind emailing me? thedreadpirateofmn at googlemail dot com

He doesn't love you. Stop listening to him. He wants to control you and have you as his servant. That's hard to hear when you want a relationship with someone and want them to care about you, but it's true.

Sleep deprivation is a brainwashing technique. That's what he's doing to you. I know that sounds dramatic in a domestic situation but that's what it is. Obviously his motivation is to stop you doing this piece of work so you don't have the opportunity to get free of him through a new career.

Stop blaming yourself and stop listening to him. He's a liar, he doesn't want to support you, he doesn't want what's best for you, he wants to undermine you, all the while lying about it so you hear his lies and they make you confused because his actions are so different. That's why I asked you if you had plans to leave or if him and his enablers had beaten you down, because it sounded as if he had beaten you down.

You're going to have to dig deep and get this work done. Fight nasty if it comes to it, be sneaky, whatever it takes to fight him and get it done. If you have to tell lies, go out, not cook a meal and feed the dcs biscuits, whatever, just do it. This is vital for your future and for theirs. Once you've done it you will feel so much better.

Oh and stop asking for or expecting his help. That's his power over you at the moment - you needing his help - so he's able to withold it from you and weaken you. You are in a battle here, you need to realise that it's a battle over whether he controls you or you control your own life. You have to win it, nobody has the right to control another person the way he is controlling you.

Its not your fault, but nothing gets better when you're shattered- you've got a 3 year old- get some SLEEP! Mine are MUCH bigger and I'll probably be up before them!

No I'm still here not knowing what to do, unable to sleep and wondering whether this could actually be my fault

I'm so sorry, this is a long thread and I've only just got to the end...I probably started reading just after you posted..
Hope you've either got to sleep or chatting elsewhere.

I have not been able to complete the piece of work that I needed to do for the now job that I am meant to be starting in September. I have been under such pressure with all of this. H could have very easily helped me if he truly loved me and wanted to support and care for me as he claims. Instead this week he has upset me and caused me to be so sleep deprived and exhausted that I am unable to focus or concentrate on anything for very long. I have two degrees and yet I can't even complete this relatively simple task. I have asked him repeatedly to leave and HE WON'T. I'm down about as far as I can go right now.

We just had a sermon on husbands and wives and what was preached at my current church is the same as at my 2 previous ones.

I quote from the sermon

"there is no justification for abuse within marriage whether it is emotional, physical or spiritual"

about wives being submissive "only behaviour that is respectful needs to be submitted to"

He IS abusing you and that is not right, it is not what God wants for you. I hope it helps to be told in black and white that he is not being a christian husband as God would have him be so don't let others pressure you into staying with an abusive man.

Again, the sleep deprivation tactic is a common abuser's one. You do know that he is doing all this stuff on purpose to get at you, don't you? He wants to upset, confuse, disorient or undermine you. Anything to keep you from mustering the strength to stand up to him.

I think TMSB's tactics of using distraction or dismissal are very good indeed. He is trying to keep your focus on him all the time so you don't have time to think what is best for you or your dcs.

How are you feeling about all this whatanother?

Do you ever think "what a tosspot"?

Relate may explain that they can't counsel in abusive situations - because they're very aware that the perpetrator is often very good at manipulating the situation to appear wronged...

And re the laundry - he's deliberately setting up situations where he can be a 'victim' for trying to do the right thing but not being good enough. I'm afraid you can't rely on him at all for useful help around the house - but you knew that anyway, didn't you? He's quite happy for your children to suffer as long as he's pushing your buttons.

This morning when I cam back from my job (had to leave the house at 5.30am and do 2 hours work) he had not dressed dd4, given the kids their breakfast or made sandwiches, so basically i ahd to do everything in half an hour before heading out to school. When I said he should have done it, he said "but I've been doing the laundry", I pointed out that laundry was not such a high priority when we need to go to school.

I go out for long bike rides when it gets too much. Relate in in just over a week. I may tell them if it comes up, why do you ask?

He's acting like a spoilt child. Doesn't matter how much you might want to work on the marriage, if he's got no respect for your boundaries (or health) it's not going to make a difference is it?

Is there anywhere you can go for a proper scream from time to time? Take a cushion into a wardrobe or something? Cos it's so much more healthy for you to be angry than to get depressed, but I understand you can't show much of either in front of the DCs.

When is it you're off to Relate? Will you tell them you're talking to WA?

Typo's, combination of predictive text and not wearing glasses while doing message. Band = came, he = if. H has slept upstairs in dd's room, and I have been woken because he has music playing. Just loud enough for me to hear and keep me awake. Been awake since before 3! I can't do this any more! This is not working and it is screwing with my head! Just went in to try and stop the music and he'd set it with a number code that I don't know, so I took it to the farthest point in the house. Then he came into my room saying "where's my phone?" and when I said it had been too noisy and kept me awake, he said "sorry!" it was quite loud I have to say, when I picked it up, and playing christian music! Aaaargh!

He's been very stroppy this evening. I had a friend over for a long, long chat and so when he band home and I think was hoping to I don't know what, he unexpectedly had to put "nice head" on and not make me cry. Instead I've come upstairs to find he has chucked stuff all over the bed like the big laundry basket still full of socks. And various other bits of clothing (Which he knows I hate). Also bumped into OM today, this time to speak to, and he knew about all the stuff I have been up to since mid may, and he said "he only there was a way round it." looked in my eyes, hung his head and went off. So thanks that's 2 people messing with my head. I managed to hold it together though. Just! My friend this evening made a really helpful suggestion that I hadn't thought of. . . .

I think you need to prepare yourself, rather brace yourself, because he is going to ramp up the drama, and it may get pretty extreme.

I hope that at this, or some near, point you will know in your heart-brain-and soul, that anything he starts in on will just be a tactic to control you. You don't need to know more, you don't need to even give him audience.

"It is already over, I am not going back." Might be a good key phrase.

Try to anticipate him and plan diversions for these departure times or other circumstances of "drama". I mean dump a cup of milk on dc and then "oh, to the tub!" (not literally, well-maybe ). Not being available physically and/or being distracted by something else-will help you shield your emotions from him.

I know it is hard because we were brought up to be nice and polite. He is playing this against you. Develope skills of dismissiveness. I now it is rude, but you need to do it.

yes, he has been phoning and facebooking, because I have arranged a music session tomorrow, and he said I never told him, and then accused me of announcing it on facebook and not telling him, and then responding to someone else on facebook before I answered him. I managed to calmly explain that I had told him last week and also that I'd not had my phone on me or seen the facebook until both messages were on there. And he says I jump to conclusions. Uch! I should have addressed all of this years ago, if I had then I would not be such an emotional wreck now, and OM situation would not have happened.

How about just rehearsing a few key phrases ready for situations he creates? If you've practised beforehand, it's easier to find the words and squash the emotional response - a bit like, no actually a lot like - responding to young children when they say 'I hate you', 'you don't love me', 'you always say/do that', 'you have to do this now' etc etc...

Emotionally manipulative bastard.

I had a dad who enjoyed making us children cry too. It made him feel powerful and put him at the centre of attention. You were worried about disrupting your dcs' lives but they are better to be as far away from it as possible. Your children need a fundamental message that this kind of way of operating with people is completely unacceptable.

I agree with DP's suggestion of treating him as if he is just being silly. There is no need to take that kind of thing seriously.

I am so glad to hear you have real life friends validating your feelings and experiences.

It does sound as if it would be better to deal with it like that, but I was feeling quite emotional myself although I wasn't actually sounding or looking like I was about to cry like he was. I couldn't dig within myself and lighten things. I'm meant to be getting an assignment done today and I can't concentrate. I am very weepy. What do people do on situations like this? How do I approach it? I really want the kids to be ok most of all.

I'm sorry, but he sounds like such a drama queen I'd be tempted to laugh at him for that . Would that be possible? At all? It's such a toxic atmosphere for a child, maybe making light of it (silly Daddy being silly again) would be better for the 3yo? Please don't hesitate to flame me if I'm being inappropriate

Yes I feel ok, but it has taken so much out of me. This morning, he went of to work saying goodbye in a "breaking and about to cry" type voice, so of course I was left with howling three year old who was really upset by that. Roll on Monday week. He's out this evening anyway so . . . .

Oh hurrah then - someone who knows exactly how it can be! Apart from the time that you have to spend around him, do you feel that you're getting stronger? You certainly sound it

No I'm very definately getting there with the decision but you know . . . . . . Had a long chat with the church friend from the weekend and I think I need to just steer away from people who put down my opinions and feelings at the moment. She was really supportive and non-judgemental said she'd known us long time and him even longer and had observed. Also that people don't tend to change out of these patterns. No talk of "miracles" etc. Also got to chat to friend who I thought was being silent, and she agreed that he did appear nice, but she still believed me because her previous relationship was abusive so she knows what they can be like. I wouldn't have believed it of her husband either. He seemed lovely.

If you get hassle from people telling you he's a nice guy tell them if they feel like that they can be married to him then. It's amazing how many people want women to stay in abusive relationships (and they do know they are abusive) just so they can feel comfortable with themselves.

"he first accused me of treating him like a slave"

You're married to Kevin the teenager. Although seriously I think he's probably been treating you like a slave - I still can't get over him getting you to trim his beard. So these kind of accusations are just projection.

What are your plans now? Do you want to leave him or are you still feeling beaten down by him and all his enablers and supporters?

But you can cut up the credit card, and phone the gym to cancel the trial... wasn't getting rid of the card one of the things he agreed to?

Thanks tmsb. I have been thinking about it and it's just all the disruption that it's going to cause to the kids and all the hassle I'm probably going to get because "he's such a nice guy." My friend who came round has been a bit silent with me, he was so good and hands on with the kids yesterday while she was here, but when we were alone he then reduced me to tears again. (He asked what he could do to help, then when I suggested he wash up about 4 or 5 things but didn't want to stand next to him and talk and dry up, he first accused me of treating him like a slave and then said I wasn't making enough effort to try to make it work). I have to listen to what my inner voice is saying. I'm trying to be strong now. Today he got phoned up by a cold caller from a very expensive gym offering him free 4 weeks trial. Of course he's going to take up the offer because "they called him", and he's given them his credit card details which are a condition of the free trial! Actually it's because he's been hankering after membership to this gym for ages. He's not done anything about getting debt counselling as he said he would. Oh well . . . . cant go into more details here but . . .

Ummm...funny he should say that: he is infectious to you. It is part of the drama triangle-complaining that you are treating him bad=you villain. You know where it is coming from and why-just walk away. Well done on the bike ride.

Crying may be coming from a different source-the deep sadness that your marriage is not 'happily ever after'. Your soul is in mourning. Cry on and don't feel that you shouldn't. There will come a time when you are done crying and that will be that.

Slight slip, WANC-"I really don't know what he expects me to say any more"...
I know this is a delicate dance, but you are not his puppet any more. His expectations is essentially what all of this is about, isn't it? You are not bowing to his expectations any more. You are civil and a reasonable person-if that isn't good enough for him then he can pound sand.
You do not have to spend one microsecond trying to figure out what he wants to hear so you can say it.

If you do not want to be physically in close proximity to him, then don't be. If he can't figure it out then say it-"I do not want to be next to you right now." Remember-no excuses or apologies for what you feel-you do not need to offer a discertation for validation-your feelings are already valid.

FOCUS.

I am sorry this post is so long. It is hard to find the right words-it is a complex idea for complex circumstances.

Hang in there. All the crying is, I think, a sign of healing. Maybe you have not 'hit bottom' yet, but you will and then things will be so much better for you. Take care.

Have looked up the triange and personality disorders. Just been reduced to tears again. He was washing up and wanted me to dry up with him, and started complaining that I treat him like he's infectious. I have cried so much lately that my eyes actually sting when I cry now. Had to go out for a hard bike ride to get it out of my system. I can't bear it and I really don't know what he expects me to say any more.

Also, look up the "Drama Triangle". It describes the manipulative tactics using a triad of positions-villain, rescuer, and victim.

It seems like before he may have been "rescuer" in saving you from "going to he**". But now, definitely playing the victim and trying to get you to "rescue" him, if not then you are a "villain".

Just don't participate. As Dittany suggested, give non-confrontational, non-commitment type answers.

Oh, really?
Ummm, maybe.
I'll think about it.

Re: the OM...I would think you have enough on your plate right now. It might serve you well to take a break from thinking about him, a la-you are just common and indifferent acquaintences for a while.

Just smile at him and say "you're entitled to your opinon". You are not obliged to either agree with him or defend yourself. He's just saying stuff like this to get a connection, even a negative one so he can keep his hold over you.

Oh I'm really fed up today. I seem to have gone backwards. Passed OM on the road in the car. Floods of tears, had DD4 saying "Don't be cryin mum it'll be OK". H this morning was listening to some Christian teaching and is "fasting". This has made me very annoyed, especially as he has since accused me of being rude to him - we had a conversation on the phone, the conversation finished, I said bye and put the phone down. And he has said I'm in a bad mood and he's fasting. It's meant to be a private matter, and fasting is not going to make me love or want to be with him. Even God does not force people, He gives us free choice. Aaaargh! .
Aaaargh! At least I have another session with WA tomorrow.

All of, not all me.

Thanks tmsb, will probably have to wait as money is tight. Unless I can find a willing friend with a big garden. Going to research as advised. It's funny, but all me this is starting to make sense of the niggles I have had over the years, and can explain so much about why I have felt so incapable and such a failure. Also explains I think the fits of unexplained crying and anxiety. Hmm

I am glad you are beginning to realize that your perspective is the truth of the your situation (and I am glad you will not continue to tolerate any of it). His situation is he needs an emotional (if not physical) slave...and he is because he will have to start all over with someone else.

It also sounds like you are doubting yourself less and less, and I think it is because you have clarity. You see through the scam of his brainwashing now.

Love is good and 'makes the world go round'....yada, yada; but it doesn't excuse everything, does it? I feel from your recent posts that you are understanding more on your own behalf. We do need to think about ourselves and that is not the same as selfishness.

If you are going to pursue Relate, I hope you will do copious amounts of homework before you go. The "NPD in churches" is an example of the type of information that is online that can help you greatly. Look up "Borderline Personality Disorder", "Narcissism (NPD)", "Personality Disorders" and there may be marriage counseling advice on line, too. The more you know and the better you develop your vocabulary to talk about it, there will be less chance you will be overwhelmed in the Relate session.

Good for you for your outing-when is the next one?

I looked at the article on NPD in churches, and I have to say it did ring alarm bells. Especially the bit about portraying themselves as the victim.

I guess sometimes you have to see for yourself what someone is really like, and attempting to do the positive things, like Relate, can help show their true colours and underline that your responses and feelings are valid. Just take care of yourself.

It's good to hear that you spoke to friend who appears to understand and didn't attempt to talk you out of your feelings.

Also had small talk with church friend (who has known H longer than I have) she didn't judge, and just nodded when I said "you know what he's like"

I know what you are saying dit. I have had a nice time away. I do want to give relate a try. H seems to have calmed down on the barraging over the last couple of days, although he did do the touching with his fingertip thing again when I got back. I have a really strong reaction to that, it actually stirs up a whole host of feelings including nausea and anger. Also I did cry for a fair bit of the drive back home. I thought being away might maybe make me feel like I loved and wanted to be with him. It hasn't!

The thing is worrying about what people say and acting on it may end you up into all sorts of difficulties. Relate is not recommended for abusive relationships, which this one is. If you get the wrong counsellor you could end up with someone who is on your husband's side and encourages him to abuse you more under the guise of you taking "equal" responsibility. It will make him very confident indeed and cause you more problems. I mean look what happened with your GP.

You don't need anybody else's permission to live your life the way you choose. It sounds like you are still trying to do other people's idea of the right thing.

I just don't want it to be said that I didn't try all the options and give it a fair chance to mend. I have enjoyed this time on my own though. I've become quite a solitary person . . . .

Enjoy your time tonight. Good news via email too. Sounds like you,re about ready to make a move? Not sure however what you,re looking to achieve with relate though - is there anything left to work with?

I'm going away for the night on my own. We have relate in 2 wks. 1good thing is that I have become a lot more assertive through all of this so I'll say "I'm off out" and just go, rather than asking permission, and then getting into a long discussion that usually ends in me agreeing to take 1 or more of the dcs. Even if I don't want to.

Good no barraging. Do you know where you're going next with this? Or don't you want to say here? Did H say anything about the counselling?

H has been to his first counselling session. No barraging today.

Funnily enough dpr it was because I went down to the beach with him and 3 DC's and put one earphone in to listen to the radio while we were down there, that he got in a huff. He said I was really rude and so I said sorry and still he went on, and I said several times. But I've said sorry. At one point I had to use what felt like physical fogging because he approached me in quite a physically aggressive manner so that I felt I had to take steam out of the situation fast. Again got me close to tears, but didn't cry until he'd gone. I sent him out to get eldest DC before I allowed any upset to show. Happened to see OM twice today and didn't cry so that's progress too.

Put on some loud music? Put on some earplugs? Tell him he's not giving you any of the space you've asked for and that this is disrespect?

If you had a good marriage, you wouldn't be here.

It's tough, but you can keep going.

xx

You do the work and you support him. From his point of view it is a good marriage.

He's entitled to his opinion but it doesn't have to have any effect on what you decide to do.

He's barraged me again. He says I'm being as bad as him. I can't bear it and I don't know what to do. He just keeps going on and on about how we have a good marriage and we work together and support each other. Aaaargh! I can't bear it!

sgb, I think that post sums it up very well <chuckling>

My stbx husband said to me after I ended the marriage 'I believe in marriage as an institution, you clearly don't'. We are both regular churchgoers, me CofE, him RC, kids both CofE and in church schools. I thought to myself 'if we carry on like this, I'll end up IN an institution'!! Refer back to 1 Corinthians 13: 4-7:

Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

If he's not treating you like that, he doesn't love you.

Oh look lovey, the sooner this marriage is over, the better. The man is a disgusting inadequate little tosspot. (Oh, aned if you are reading this, you bellend: you will NEVER be happy until you actually manage to understand that women are human beings and every bit as important and valid as you think you are.) And the church is full of fuckwits, too. I am not the best person for religious guidance, admittedly, but there are quite a few MNers who are Christians (as you said ;church' I guess it's a branch of Christianity you belong to) who manage to believe in God and Jesus without peddling misogyny and condoning domestic violence. If being a Christian is important to you and you're not just stuck with it as a mindset because you;re surrounded by bucketheads, there will be other MNers who can support and advise you and reassure you that Jesus and God if they existed would think your H is a knobjockey as well.

I never even noticed it. Har, har.

Didn't want to mention it but [snurk]

Tempted to change my name just because of the initials. Lol.

That seems to pretty much sum him up, DreadPirate.

(No you weren't being too demanding WANC. Getting a pregnant woman to climb a ladder is outrageous behaviour. He always puts himself first.)

You know you're not being too demanding at all - he's been and continues to be an arse...

Yes, re-read that link and remembered that H came to our first antenatal appointment (we'd been married about a month and a half) and read a book WHILE we were in the consulting room and the doctor was talking. He took no part in the discussions at all. Also while I was expecting DC 4(who didn't live) he had me going up ladders to change smoke alarm batteries (so in a house), because he was scared of heights! Wouldn't you overlook that rather than put your pregnant wife and unborn child at risk? Am I being too demanding here?

Erk, I just read his thread too. He is extraordinarily manipulative and seems to think that declarations of love excuse all other behaviour. He must be very difficult to deal with in real life.

Glad to hear you saw a better doctor today WANC.

My Dad, I don't know what he'd say, and no siblings but I do have another family member who lives closer and is supportive.

Excellent! Keep it up!

Yes I looked at the thread. Scary! I've had a nice day actually, and a good chat with my neighbour (male but my Dads age) so that has made me feel better. Also re-visited gp and saw different doc who took full notes.

But wrt to your family, how about your Dad? Any sisters? They might surprise you you know?

Just had a look at his thread - yuk. Yuk yuk yuk. And well done Warthog .

Well, on the bright side his FIL wants the marriage over too? [hopeful]

Hope you're seeing the solicitor again soon to get things sorted. Let us know if there's anything you want an opinion on? Can always post something specific for you under another name

My family live on the other side of the country and my mum in particular believes in sticking with it through anything. We get on but I'd get no support from them on this. Also DH started his own thread on here under the same name as he used on my old thread. I didn't know until a friend told me. I do have a couple of really supportive friends both churchy. I don't talk to other people about it really. The thing that really gets to me about fil is that when we were really struggling financially, fil laughed at us when we asked him to bring us food, yet he's very prepared to contribute financially to the break up of our marriage!

Good - don't get depressed, get angry!

I don't remember where your own family are in all this - are they still around? Sorry if I'm dragging up anything sad...

Your H really is an apalling piece of work. Did you look through that thread I linked to? Did it sound at all familiar? Any help?

And whereabouts are you in the country? Would you be interested in seeing if there's an MNer nearby, who you could talk to and feel less alone in this? Or is Womens Aid enough right now?

xx

He not if, flippin predictive texts

Ok. We have just had a conversation. A few days ago now, If told me that he went to his dad for some money this month. I was a bit annoyed because I thought it bad to be begging for money at our age. Today he announced the money was here. His dad had sent the money to him at work. This wound me up a bit, but then he said it was solicitor money. H had rung round until he found which solicitor I was seeing and then gone begging his dad for money for one himself. All this time saying he wants to work at us etc, but expending far more effort sneaking behind my back than he ever did on us. It's just another nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned. I'm disgusted but it backs up the way I'm feeling actually.

I think he's probably good at disguising the purposefulness of his passive aggression. That's what passive aggressive people want you to believe - that they didn't mean it, so you're the bad guy for getting angry or frustrated with them.

I think you are making a mistake if you think you are going to have teamwork or togetherness with this man. They are good things to aim for but it's just not how he operates. He's in one-up "I am more important than you" mode. People who think like that can't cooperate because they think they are losing something. They can only envisage relationships where one person is one up and the other is one down.

I really don't know that he does do it on purpose, I do think it's genuine thoughtlessness, however the effect is the same. It's really wearing and it destroys any sense of togetherness or teamwork.

I think it's more than lack of basic consideration, it's being done on purpose, like the car in front of yours - that's him displaying his dominance. Until you get back into line he'll keep punishing you in this passive aggressive way. And then he'll probably keep punishing you anyway just to make sure you know your place.

Do you yourself think you don't owe him anything or is there part of you that still feels guilty for standing up for yourself?

I do a lot of work with victims of domestic violence, the type of behaviour your husband is displaying is nothing short of mental abuse.
Its true that you have to work hard to make a marriage work, but only if its a healthy relationship in the first place, if all the hard work is one sided and is leaving you mentally exhausted then thats not a healthy situation to be in.
Sometimes in life you have to accept that some people, either physically or emotionally or not safe to be around, you can't change another person you can only make choices to make your own life better. If you feel as though you can save your marriage then go for it, if not then its better to be happy on your own than unhappy with someone.

Would also like to point out that anger management isn't suitable for everyone, in some cases it helps the peron control their anger better in front of other people only to let it out even worse when they get behind closed doors. Yes it works well for some people.....but in domestic abuse cases it isn't usually the solution.

This morning I was running late and needed to drive the DC's to school. I found he had parked his car across the drive and left his alarm on (it's am old car so the alarm is not an automatic thing). I don't have a device for it. I was able to get past, but it's this kind of lack of basic consideration or thought that really gets to me. I also think he believes his barrage was effective because he kept saying "I love you" this morning. It feels a bit like a slap in the face when he says it actually. Very strange.

He is emotionally at the level of a six year old. All about him, no reciprocating responsibility. Tell him to go "Pound Sand". Men know what that means.

Move on. That could include changing churches too, btw.

Communication:
Repeat back to him what he is asking you. (He may not realize how absurd it is until he hears it rather than saying it.)

Then, without pause, state your perspective and why you could not possibly live up to his _____ expectations ("impossible" would be tactful, but resist "psyco"). And you could add a "Not Negotiable" clause.

This is creating boundaries. Things you will not do. (Ah-hemm-For Example: You will not "Be his mommy."-like dittany pointed out.)

Unreconcilable differences-would that be grounds for a divorce where you live? The church wouldn't have anything to do with it...tell the mother superiors that God isn't living with him, you are.

Stay focused. You are right about all of this. Trust your feelings. And try not to be so reflexively trusting about everything he tells you. That indicates creating some emotional distance from him-sort of another boundary, part of your strategy for dealing with all of this crap.

He's very demanding isn't he?

Pressing all your emotional buttons too. You aren't obliged to provide any of those things to him you know. He seems to have an infinite sense of entitlement of what you should provide to him, but no sense of offering you anything in return e.g. space, privacy, time to sort out your head, kindness, consideration.

It sounds like he wants an all loving, all forgiving, all sacrificing mummy whilst he remains the spoilt little boy who does what he likes and lives how he likes. But you have to forgive otherwise that makes you a bad person.

Do you want to sacrifice yourself for him any more?

In the meantime you could just tell him "no".

He has just barraged me again with a whole load of stuff and I am worn down and tired. Saying he wants persistence, patience, forgiveness, some love. I am so numb.

"when you get church people telling you that things aren't that bad, God wants you to stay together and that there is something special round the corner, I mean, who wants to go against God?"

Unless they've got a hotline to God (which would be a heretical claim) they have no idea what god wants.

Your dh got criticised (not abused, what a martyr) on here because he was out of order.

Trust your feelings. Your feelings know what is right for you and you can't stand this situation.

God says wives must respect their husbands, sure

BUT it also says in the bible that husbands MUST treat their wivees how Jesus himself treated the church / sacraficed himself for us.....

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" (Ephisians 5:25)

He ain't upholding his part of the marriage vows, so why should you be locked into it?

Over and above all of that, God wants you to be happy, free and secure - none of which you are right now.

and there endeth my sermon (which I had told to me when I was divorcing my husband)

Is it possible that your dh is just so convincing in his manner and what he says about you and your marriage that he has everyone fooled including those at church?

Is it possible that your dh is just so convincing in his manner and what he says about you and your marriage that he has everyone fooled including those at church?

Hi wanc - just caught up with you

tbh, the doctor sounds like a liability - it's absolutely not on for her to tell you to stay with a man like this, or bring religion into the consultation at all. Can you see another GP at the surgery? Hope you get the UTI sorted anyway.

What sort of church is it? None of it sounds healthy. Is it an alpha type thing?

Listen to your heart, stay strong. Keep on making the positive moves. Maybe read this thread and see if there are any bells ringing over the behaviour? You really aren't alone in the way you're being treated and feeling, and you're certainly not alone here

Can't afford books atm. I have a growing list to try to get hold of from the library.
DH has taken the kids to a club and phoned to say he's staying to "have a chat" with another male church friend and will be back later.
I just read a thread where the OP talked about how she really loved her OH and felt he was her soulmate. I don't feel that. Also have finally articulated my feelings. Have written them down but not shown him as that probably would not be a good idea, but it helped me to sort out the jumble in my head. He has never really opened up to me. When I ask him about anything personal that's important, he speaks in very general vague terms or "can't remember". Also he thinks that he can use being depressed as an excuse for not treating me well. He went to see the doctor about it, but she apparently said he didn't need medication!!

Double standard. He gets his private phone friend but you don't get privacy for total strangers from the other side of the planet.

Sarcasm is anger in disguise. It is still anger.

He is "still" acting like a six year old. "See? I'm being good, aren't I?"
He wants things his way or he's going to have a tantrum (manifested in the stream of accusations).

"Sounds quite feasible"-he wants to brainwash you into not trusting your own judgement. Yet the feeling you come away with is "Stifled and Despairing"-that is where the truth lies-not good.

His going on MN was a control power play and nothing else. Reading your diary was a complete invasion of privacy and breach of trust. So he doesn't trust you? This is classic deflection behavior because he has something to hide.

Stay focused, WANC.

Did I recommend books before? Perhaps it was another thread...
Anger Management by Peter Favaro
and
Disarming the Narcissist by Wendy Behary

well, have taken one positive step today. no info because who knows who is reading this. . . yesterday H came in, saw me on the computer and said "nice to know you're being talked about!" and I was actually responding to someone else's thread.
Then this morning he gave me long lecture about how he's trying and how he had a lot of abuse on MN, being called misogynist(sp?) and controlling and how no one would listen to his side. He also said I have been hiding things from him over the last 4 weeks. Actually he has been hiding things from me for the last 10+years and I've only been trying to get my head straight. he said the only reason he went on MN and read my diary was because he wanted to know what was going on. All this sounds quite feasible, so why do I feel stifled and despairing. having thought about the person he spoke to yesterday, I have calmed down a little, because I realise that he has probably hear a lot of stuff from the other side as I have talked to his wife over the years about the situation. I expect he took everything he was told with a pinch of salt.
Anyway, have made some positive steps forward today and am less upset. Last night I hardly slept.

He not he....sorry

Hello again. Sorry this may be rather tactless...

You are not over reacting. Your perspective is important.

Your perspective is important.

<<<<You exist, damn it!! >>>>
<<<<You have every right to be upset!>>>>

Quit letting these people talk you out of your feelings. They are your feelings, and they are VALID.

Dismissiveness is emotional abuse. Dismiss, ridicule, degradation-just keeping you pressed down so he can have another power play at your expense. You will be in a great state of depression if you continue your present course, if you are not already.

Churches do alot of good in the world. And it is blasephemous to say anything negative about them. But, just a suggestion, mind you, try googling "NPD in churches". There can be some rather toxic dynamics that go on with people at church. I am not, of course, saying this sort of thing is what is happening with your church experience, but it may be worth some study to clarify your valid perspective on that source of influence over your circumstances.

You could say that you talked to God last night and he doesn't want you to stay in an abusive marriage because it isn't healthy for you or your dc.

Dismissiveness from ANYONE does not invalidate what you are going through. And collectively...no-your perspective is still paramount. It is your life.

Take things one at a time. That will help you not feel so overwhelmed.

Take care.

I am seeking further help, but it's really hard where I am at the moment, adn also when you get church people telling you that things aren't that bad, God wants you to stay together and that there is something special round the corner, I mean, who wants to go against God?

"Gp said he was just a "typical man" and I should "ignore" any nasty comments / ignoring me etc,..."

No! Absolutely not respectful behaviour and as his wife, respect is the very, very least you deserve. 'Ignoring' (stonewalling) and 'nasty comments' (verbal abuse) are base indicators of a dire imbalance and I would really urge you to seek further help.

I don't know what else to say except for to state the blindingly obvious fact that you deserve better! All the best in seeking a way to attaining that.

Having been to an initial counselling session and H has been doing a lot more, making helpful / caring comments etc, I really thought maybe he is serious about change. Don't know if i'm over-reacting. Went to gp about urine infection and discussed home situation. Gp said he was just a "typical man" and I should "ignore" any nasty comments / ignoring me etc, and find something else to do. Even saying the thought of staying in this situation is intolerable, and the thought of breaking up the family makes me feel awful, and at times I feel like I just can't go on didn't really seem to register with her. She said marriage is hard and you have to work on it. Well I was almost feeling friendly to Dh when he came home (today was also better because after a week at home with "stress" he went back to work). Then I tried to phone a friend with his phone (on his say so) and he pointed out that he'd changed his pin. When I asked why, he went really cagey. Then this evening he went off to talk with a male "friend". He came back quite "chipper" and so I said "how did it go?" and again he got cagey and said "You know, the last four weeks?" and I said "well what about it?" and he was cagey. I got cross and said he was back to the same old s**t of not talking to me and he said "don't talk to me like that". The thing is, I know this person he has been talking to is not the most discrete, so tomorrow I imagine the school playground will be an interesting place to be. I'm so upset. He has been going on about me being open and so on with him, when he is keeping things from me just as he has always done. I'm very sad. Am seeing WA again tomorrow. GP was a church person and asked whether I wanted what I had said to go on my record and I said yes please. Maybe he's been right and I've been a bad wife all these years.