Contact - opinions please.

[OptimistS]

Been a while since I?ve been on here, but I could really do with some feedback from other people on a subject that has been troubling me. I know that ultimately I am going to have to be the one to make the decision and I have to base it on what I think is in the best interests of my children, but I would like to see what other people think. I have posted this here, rather than in Lone Parents, because I am after a broader perspective, based on what people think is right, rather than one based on purely on the lone parent viewpoint.

I left my ex 2 years ago, because of violence. Things were awful for the first 6 months after the break-up, but once stood my ground and made it clear I was not going to be intimidated by him, things settled down. I have bent over backwards to encourage contact between him and the kids, trying my best not to confuse his relationship with them with his relationship with me. I thought we?d come a long way and developed a friendly, co-parenting relationship. I?ve involved him in all major decisions involving our kids, invited him along to all their doctor/health visitor appointments, etc., and have told him that he can see the kids whenever he likes. This currently stands at 4 hours once a week, though he will occasionally pop in unannounced for a couple of hours, which is fine. We could put the kids to bed and share a coffee and a joke. Everything seemed fine.

However, I am now seriously wondering if I have done the right thing. Maybe I should have allowed his involvement to stop when they were still babies. If I hadn?t made so much of an effort with my ex when we split up, I can guarantee that he would have no contact with our kids. He has 4 other children, only one of which (a grown-up daughter) he has any contact with and even in her childhood he disappeared out of her life for 5 years. Should I have just let this happen while our kids were too young to have formed a relationship with him? They?re only just 2 now (twins).

The reason I?ve had this sudden change of heart is because he has just beaten up a 15-year-old boy, the son of one of our mutual friends. Not badly, but that?s not the point. He was a child and it?s wrong, both in the eyes of the law and morally. However, our friend is a bit intimidated by him and has decided not to press charges. It?s not the first time my ex has beaten up a minor. He beat up his daughter when she was 17, but because she refused to co-operate with the court, he was let off. In the last 6 months he has also caused his (now ex) girlfriend to need stitches to her face, though he put pressure on her to retract her statement so he got away with that as well. In my opinion, he is more than capable of turning on our kids. Not now, while they are so young (in fact he?s excellent with young children, probably because he is in complete control), but as they get older and start back-chatting him and challenging his authority I have serious concerns. I know how it will play out: Once they hit 5 or 6 he will start criticising them for being too loud or unrestrained, or not quick enough to grasp something... From this age on he will becoming increasingly confrontational with them as they head into teenage years. Then we have the very real risk (IMO) of things deteriorating into violence.

Although there?s always been this possibility I?ve been kidding myself that I will be able to eradicate the risk with a two-pronged attack: 1. Always having contact at my house so I can keep an eye on things and step in if necessary. 2. Teaching my kids about abusive behaviour and how best to respond to it. I figured I?d be able to help them maintain a supervised, therefore healthy, relationship with their Dad until they were adults and able to see the whole picture and draw their own conclusions. Looking back, I can?t believe how insanely optimistic/incredibly naive I was to think that (but then I can?t believe how appalling my character judgement skills were when I picked my ex to be the father of my children).

What I?ve also realised is that even if I can protect my children from the direct consequences of their father?s badly controlled temper, I can?t protect them from the indirect consequences. What happens when they go to school and other kids say things they?ve heard like ?Your dad beat up so and so last week?. How is that going to make them feel?

So I?m sat here now thinking what can my ex possibly offer my children? Love? His kind of love is possessive and controlling, whether it?s with family or women. A role model? He fiddles the dole, gets in scraps with people down the pub, beats up children and does recreational drugs. Financial support? He has never paid maintenance for any of his children and I can?t see him starting now.

Whatever I do, my children are going to be hurt. If I stop contact they are going to have to go through all sorts of issues regarding rejection. If I allow him to remain in their lives he could be an incredibly negative, unsettling and destabilising factor. Can I even stop contact? Would the courts stop contact based on how a man is likely to behave in the future rather than what he?s like now? If he does stop being a part of their lives, how do I explain it to them as they get older? I don?t want them to think Daddy didn?t care about them (these were much wanted children when we conceived them), nor do I want them to think that Daddy is a violent psycho as I don?t want them growing up thinking that half their being is somehow of less value than the half that comes from me. The sum of the parts is greater than the whole and all that, but it still needs all the individual parts to exist.

I?m rambling now. I really don?t know what to do for the best. I will make my mind up eventually, but while I am still considering it I am interested in other people?s opinions. What would you do in my situation? All advice gratefully received, thank you and sorry for such a long post.

[theoptimist]

Personally, in this situation, I would keep contact scheduled and supervised. To deny it altogether might cause him to fight for more contact.

[GypsyMoth]

My kids are older, my ex was violent too. To me and to two girlfriends after me. He has attacked latest girlfriends kids too. Cafcass are reluctant to give him direct access. My ex has had alsorts of anger management non of which has worked. He is still violent, has now been to rison for it. Thank god he lives a fair distance away. Would NOT want kids being picked on about that.

My kids told cafcass he let's them down. My eldest refuses to speak to him too.

In your case. Would he go through courts for access? I welcomed It. Needed a professionals opinion on him. He now has to have a forensic pshychiatric asessment and then he maybe can see them at a contact centre. If he turns up

[whereismumhiding]

He sounds awful. But he's their dad. I think you are grappling with all of the issues in a very clear way.

Supervised is definitely the way to go. Is there someone, like a family mediator or somewhere to go to talk it through with them. I wonder if it is worth asking your GP or ringing your local sure start centre to talk with them about who could help you think it through. You're being a responsible mother looking at what is best for your children now and in the future.

I worry when you say he is likely to turn on them when they start to not agree with him or be too noisy. You're making a clear risk assessment that your children are at risk from him. The contact is only supervised by you, so in a sense you are at risk too, as he's coming into your house.

But if you rock the boat, he could get nasty. Have you thought of supervised contact at a say..? Sure start centre or somewhere else neutral where other people are around? You could do it once a week, if it could fit into your life, and no more of the "dropping in" then. ?

Does this help?

[OptimistS]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I've been thinking about supervised contact, although I have a feeling that if I go down that route one of two things will happen - he'll either give up contact with them completely, straight away, or he'll turn nasty and be as difficult as possible about the whole thing (eventually he'll not bother with contact, but not before he's caused the maximum upset). Supervised contact will basically mean no contact whatsoever eventually. If we're going to go down that route, it may be better if it fizzles out rather than being forced to an abrupt end. If I started hassling him for more support and demanding maintenance, I could probably get him out of their lives for good anyway, without resorting to the courts.

I think I will phone CAFCASS tomorrow. Apparently they can give guidance as well as deal with court cases. I will also have a word with my health visitor. I'd really like to talk to a child psychologist who specialises in children's emotional well being after family break-up and see which he or she feels is the lesser of two evils.

Thanks again. Keep the advice coming.

[cestlavielife]

sorry but he sounds nasty....

he has a history of violence. has been violent to others recently - is there police record, crime number even if charges not brought?
has he had a psych assessment?

keep a record, diary...

you wont be able to supervise for ever. how do you know he wont turn on you?

what about when they go to school and he decides to pick them up?

droppping in unnanounced? is that ok with you?

i tried the supervised by me approach but it didnt work... tho maybe coz he couldnt accept we werent together anymore.

courts wont stop contact but it could be ordered as supervised by others.

better regular scheduled contact times.

maybe he drops in unnanounced to check up on you...what if you had a new partner? how would he react?

[Fabulousshoes]

I really empathise with you on this one having experienced a similar situation with my ex but I have been going through it for 12 years so hopefully can give you some insight into what your future might hold. I could write a book on my experience but will try to keep to the main points.

I split with childs father when she was just under a year due to violence, controlling behaviour and just generally realising what a huge mistake I had made in being with him.

I have literally spent the last 11 years on a rollercoaster with this situation. I have always had the intentions of putting my feelings about him and our relationship aside and purely letting him be a father to his child but unfortunately this just isn't always possible.

At the age your children are you are still in a position to protect them and will be for the next few years. I always went with the attitude of 'once she's an adult she can decide for herself' and I never badmouthed him or gave her any explanation as to what had gone wrong betwen us but unfortunately he didn't carry this same attitude. As soon as she was old enough to understand he would badmouth me, tell her it was my fault we split up and as she got older things have got worse and worse. His contact was sporadic, sometimes he would pay maintenance sometimes he wouldn't depending on if he had a job. He was sacked from one job for punching a fellow employee. As she got older and began to have interests in clubs/activities at the weekends etc he would make her feel guilty for wanting to pursue these instead of spending time with him. A few times I took the decision to stop contact altogether but it became impossible to moniter the contact between them as she now has mobile phones, e-mail etc and he would contact her that way rather than through me so I would constantly feel as if I was harrasing her by asking if she had heard from him, what has he said etc.

Things came to a head this year and I took the decision to stop contact. My daughter is now 12 and after several visits to her father which ended up with her coming home in tears and having anger directed at myself and dp. I had to sit and talk to her in a far more adult way than I would like to have done but she has finally started to see her father for what he is, a selfish manipulative and controlling man.

I could cry at all she has had to go through with him and for the fact that now at 12 she is coming to terms with the fact her father is not the kind of "Dad" her friends have or the man she so wishes he was. Thankfully I have a wonderful partner who treats her like his own and their relationship gets stronger everyday.

We have had the threats of court and everything else but nothing has come of it and even if it did I now know that my daughter would not want to have contact with him and hope that this would be taken into account.

I cannot tell you the right thing to do. You can only decide that yourself but the main thing is to save you children from as much heartache as you possibly can. Be that now or in the future. They are precious beings and from the experiences you describe with his other children it seems that the writing is already on the wall.

I feel for you I really do and I hope this has helped a little bit. As I said my story is 11 years long and even with hindsight I do not know what I would have done differently but I do know that I have done the best I possibly could. Good luck, and remember that whatever you do although it may not seem it at the time, in the long term your children will see that you had their best interest at heart and as long as you are always there for them they will never resent you for protecting them.

[cestlavielife]

lesser of two eveils --well......the childrens' safety and wellbeing is prime here - you have serious concerns - whether for now or in three four years time...

logically from what you say: he will get nasty now to you (i assume that is what you mean) if you stop contact - but will get nasty to the children in the future if you keep on with contact now and then he gets violent with them...

which is worse for the children? two years of nice daddy now - then oh dear he turns nasty?

or you getting the nasty bit now and over and done with?

i think - to reiterate - he has been violent recently to a young person and to another adult - therefore it is logical to fear for your own safety and that of your children - even if they only two... and even if you supervising them...he only has to get violent once to cause severe harm... to them or you.

can you really be sure that he will be fine with the kids for the next three four years? i dont think so....

what is his game? you seem pretty sure he is a take it or leave it person when it comes to contact with his kids --is his contact with the twins to do with him controlling you, still?

i just dont trust violent exes... and you supervising access is unsustainable in my view.

sh&t will hit the fan sooner or later...

[cestlavielife]

p.s. again - i also thought he would "go away" as he threatened to do once he realised that was it, we would not al be togetehr again; or once he realised it was supervised contact or nothing...but he hasnt...

supervised contact starts this weekend after only one hour of contact since august 2008.

fabulousshoes -i also can see this all rumbling on for years.... and that he will use the children....

like you said "I have always had the intentions of putting my feelings about him and our relationship aside and purely letting him be a father to his child but unfortunately this just isn't always possible."

ugh.

[OptimistS]

Hmm, not looking very positive here...

Cestlavie, you're right of course about their safety, although by lesser or two evils I was referring to the emotional fallout caused to my children by removing dad from their lives now as opposed to the issues created if I stopped contact/initiated supervised contact at such time I felt it became necessary (probably around 8 years of age) when he would probably also disappear and leave them with rejection issues. I wasn't actually thinking about any risk to myself, though I probably should be come to think of it. The popping in unannounced only happens about once every 4-6 weeks or so - I h ave made it clear that I will not be happy about it happening regularly.

I still have a lot of thinking about what I am going to do, how I am going to do it, and when I am going to do it, but reading through all your replies and turning things over in my head, it seems a given that supervised contact (if any contact at all) is going to be necessary.

Still interested in other people's opinions though. Thanks.