Had Enough

[Shattered]

I am feeling so bad at the moment. I had a huge row with dh tonight - in front of my 2 yr-old ds - I feel so lousy because we were screaming and swearing at each other and he was just sitting there watching. I absolutely hate it happening in front of him and it rarely happens like that, but I was so furious that it all just came out and he was suitably 'nasty' back to me. I feel like the lousiest mother, considering ds has also been quite sick the last few days. In a nutshell, I am also coming down with the same thing ds has, so I feel rotten and very tired. DH has been busy with work & went out to dinner with some colleagues last night, while I was at home administering all the medicine and taking of care of ds. It's really getting to me that I do everything for him, I bath him, feed him, change him, put to him to bed, get him up, and do everything that needs to be done. I even play with him as much as I can because dh doesn't seem to be around enough. In the beginning I felt obliged to do all the caretaking because dh didn't want the baby in the first place and because he was the one who was working full-time. Now I feel I'm doing much more than my share - dh still sleeps in, gets to watch the news/sport/football, doesn't do any housework, never ever cooks dinner, doesn't clean up the kitchen and I have to ask him if I want something done. He takes care of the garden and the outside area, but I just feel that I've made a mistake in letting the situation get to this point. What does everyone think, should I be doing everything because I'm a SAHM? He also had the audacity to hint that I don't care about my son, when I absolutely adore him and I think this was just his way of being nasty. He manipulates what I say and doesn't take responsibility for any of the disagreements we have. I really can't stand the sight of him at the moment...

[bundle]

Shattered, this needs sorting & quickly. Ok, some might say you're partly 'to blame' for letting things get this far & out of balance in terms of what each of you do around the house, life admin stuff etc - but if you're anything like me you probably just 'get on with it' (ie it's easier to do it yourself than to tell/show someone else how to). No wonder you resent your dh, and everything blew up in a row, but you both need to sit down, and calmly talk about all this stuff. maybe both write down what you do and what you'd like the other one to do. in terms of immediate practical stuff - can you afford a cleaner? do you have any relatives nearby who could share some of the childcare? being a SAHM is IMO the most stressful job ever (I work p/t) and you deserve a bloody medal. don't be hard on yourself, it sounds like you've done a terrific job up to now, but it can't go on like this you'll get more resentful and some of that anger is bound to filter through to ds. good luck in sorting things out.

[Shattered]

Bundle I couldn't see dh ever agreeing to a cleaner because I am not working at the moment. I occasionally get someone to do my ironing, but that's it. My parents live quite close and do help with babysitting, but ds still spends the bulk of his time with me. KS, I guess I've been doing everything since ds was born because I haven't been 'working' since then. DH does pay the bills and that sort of thing, but I seem to do the physical stuff like cleaning, cooking, caring for ds. I agree that taking care of a child can be very stressful and even though dh has a fairly high-pressure job, he gets home by 5.30 - 6.00 pm and then he relaxes - can't say the same for myself. Sometimes he travels too, which he says he finds tiring but it's also tiring for me because I have ds all to myself. At least dh goes out to dinner and stays in hotels while he's away!! It's such a tedious situation.

[oxocube]

Hi, Shattered. Like a few of the other mums who have contributed to this thread, I cannot offer any solutions, only sympathy. My d.h. is just the same, although he doesn't usually get home until about 7 ish, and also travels quite a lot through work. We have been together for 14 yrs now, and I suppose, to a large extent, I partly have myself to blame for his complete inneptitude (sp?)at anything other than his work. I allowed this development of set roles, and maybe in the early days, I even encouraged it. I was proud to have a man to look after and was equally proud of his ability to provide for me. (PLEASE don't get offended by this everyone - I was very young and extremely naive!!) That was before we had kids which brought so much more work and many different stresses into the equation.

He works hard, but like your d.h. the moment he walks through the door, his day ends. Like you, I do everything with our 3 kids, the house, garden, and like you, I also get pissed off. Its just too much some days. The only saving grace is that once the kids are in bed, we do talk a lot and have a lot of laughs and fun together (if I can stay awake long enough!)

We also have rows, though we tend to go through stages of everything being fine, and I am ashamed to say that some of our rows, like yours took place in front of the kids. I actually find weekends much harder than through the week. Mon -Fri, I don't see how little he does at home, if you know what I mean, and by the time he gets home, the kids are bathed, in pyjamas and ready for a story (read, of course, by me).

I guess, what I am saying is that I have more or less accepted that for us, this is the way it is going to be now. Things have probably gone on for too long. Of course, I could leave, but aside from the practical issues, I love him dearly and still fancy him like mad, which helps.

I suppose what you have to decide is whether you are prepared to continue like this. What would you do if he refuses to change? Do you still love him? When I first discovered Mumsnet, it seemed that everyone apart from me had wonderfully supportive partners. Obviously, from the many threads similar to this one, there are a lot of mums who find themselves in a similar situation. Not much comfort, I know, but at least we're not alone. I hope someone can offer you some more constructive advice or suggestions. Perhaps someone has managed to turn this kind of situation around.

Oh and re arguing in front of your baby, don't beat yourself up over it. Its not great but it happens. Love oxocube xxx

[Jaybee]

One idea that may result in helping to sort this out - have you ever thought of getting a job for a couple of evenings a week? This would force the issue - dh would have to sort out your ds and put him to bed etc. and you could use the money you earn to pay for a cleaner. You would also get some work colleagues which may result in a social life of your own away from ds. Get on and apply at a local supermarket or something.
Just a suggestion.

[Lucy123]

I sympathise greatly, although since dd was born, dp has really had so much work that he hasn't been able to help (v inconsiderate clients) I can imagine how you feel.

It sounds like you need a treat - can you get him to babysit for a weekend while you do something else?

Also of course you need to find a solution to the ongoing problem. Before dd was born, dp and I used to have terrible rows over the housework until we agreed that since he hates it more than me, I would do all the housework and in return he would pay for food including expensive ready meals and meals out. It worked - I was still doing all the work but I had something in return and felt appreciated. Is there something specific that he could do (that he doesn't do now) that wouldn't cause resentment and would shift the balance just that little bit? (as this is often all it takes - it sounds like you'll be onto a dead loss if you simply ask him to do "more" for the baby and around the house). Saying that though, just because he didn't want the baby before doesn't mean he should be let off the hook entirely - your son is here now and needs his father.

Finally most children witness parental rows at some point and I really think that in many ways this is healthier than having a seething ongoing restentment. Obviously it's better if they don't, but this is the real world.

[bundle]

Shattered, sorry to hear cleaner or other help not possible..(I suppose he thinks "why have a dog & bark yourself?". me & dh have our ups & downs but I was delighted last week when he suggested we try & get an extra day in nursery for dd (she's done 3 days since 7 mths old) and I have that free time to myself - and he specified this should not be for doing stuff around house etc, but "me time". initially felt guilty about even considering it because the idea felt so decadent, but it's really made me think about taking up eg art again, a truly de-stressing thing I used to love doing. a few mths ago I would never have imagined dh suggesting this but I've had a few minor illnesses over the last few mths and I think he's realised how run down I've been, trying to balance stuff. I suppose it's all down to negotiating and trying to get partners to empathise.

[Lucy123]

ps the job idea also is an excellent one, although I'd suggest getting a morning job and using the money to get a cleaner/babysitter so that you don't end up working after a full day working in the home.

[SimonHoward]

Shattered

Sorry to hear of you plight.

I was like your DH in that I didn't want any children to start with but since DD has arrived almost all of my family and friends have be astounded by how much I do. Seems that they had this idea I was going to leave everything to DW (yeah, right, she has a large collection of sharp knives and I'm not pissing her off while she can reach them).

In all seriousness though, unless you DH is doing 12 hour shifts and lots of travelling before and after I think he is being short sighted and silly not to help out, even if it is just getting your DS ready for bed or getting him up of a morning.

[Rhubarb]

Shattered - what an absolute pig he sounds! I guess he is just so used to getting his way by now that it will be very hard to get him and you out of this rut.

Here is what I suggest. Get yourself signed up for an evening class - there are plenty that start at 6.00pm, just right for when your dh gets home. Let him cope with your ds for one evening a week to let him see how hard it can be.

Make a list of everything you do during the day, from the moment you get up to the moment you go to bed. Dh once accused me of 'not working' so I did a list for a whole week, then presented it to him and made him read it, he never accused me of not working again!

Do not do his washing or his ironing, you have enough to do with yours and ds's. My dh has his own washing basket and from day one I made it clear that whilst I may do more than my fair share of housework, I would not be his mother. His dirty laundery is his business, if he doesn't like it tough - it's no skin off your nose if he goes to work in rumpled dirty clothes.

Once a month make sure that you organise a night out for yourself and a few friends. Even if you do not want to do it. You may feel tired, not up to it, nothing to wear, etc, but once out you will not regret it. It will help him see that you can have a life outside of caring for him and ds, that you are a person in your own right. He has taken far too much for granted and now is the time to draw a line. It will take time, he is too used to the way things are at present, but perserve, he'll get used to it sooner or later, he will have to!

You are an individual too, you have needs just as much as he does, don't let him grind you down like this. The row was just the beginning, you needed to let off steam, don't feel guilty about it, kids need to know that people don't get on all of the time, it's perfectly normal. Now get out there and have some fun!

[Mooma]

Rhubarb for President!

[PamT]

Rhubarb, I think I will try some of your suggestions as I am in the same situation as Shattered and oxocube. I have been a SAHM for the last 6 years and find that I have to look after 4 children in the evenings/weekends, the most demanding being the 36 year old one! During the week I accept that he goes out to work and my job is the kids/housework side of things but unfortunately this apparently applies during weekends and holidays too (I have often asked if I can have a day off but get no response). I wouldn't mind if he would just clear his own mess up but he never even thinks to put a mug or plate in the dishwasher, even when he has had a late night supper or something on his own. It does become a bit of an issue and the bitterness which comes with it stops me feeling so loving which then has a knock on effect in the bedroom (which despite talking it over time and time again never seems to hit home)

Friends have told me to find a saturday job because they have educated their DH that way. I did work for a whole saturday about a month ago and came home to find the house a tip, breakfast dishes still out (dirty of course), the kids hadn't had any tea etc. DH was brought up in an old fashioned home where mothers did stay at home to slave for DH so I suppose it is only what he is used to.

Our circumstances have changed a little now and financially I have less to lose if I do work part time so I'm off to scour the supermarkets/job centres etc for something. Previously he has moaned that he doesn't want me to work when he is at home, he uses the excuse that he would never see me, but personally I think it is more to do with the childcare aspect of it. He has however accepted that I will not work during the day because school holidays and sickness would make it too impractical and we are so desperate to move house that this seems the only way to do it.

[ariel]

Just because i am a sahm i still want and need help from dh, as someone else mentioned most jobs are 37/40 hours long and they can have tea breaks/dinner breaks and once they clock out there working day has finished. My dh gets up at 4am and is home at 3/4pm, so we agreed i would do all the night feeds and obviously(sp?) i get the kids up and to school, although i do 90 per cent of the "child care" dh is very good at doing house work and on most evenings cooks tea, he gets up with the kids on the wkends so i can get a few more hours sleep. I have often said to dh that i would happily go to work full time and let dh be a house husband, but he allways says going to work every day is a much easier choice then taking care of the children full time, i suppose i am quite lucky.

[Rhubarb]

Don't you believe it Ariel!! My dh now concludes that he is the lucky one to be able to go to work and switch off from what is going on at home! I don't know about you but my working day consists of looking after dd, sorting out the household bills, anything that goes wrong with the house, I sort out, housework, I also do charity work when I can, any arrangements such as holidays or babysitters I have to sort out, I usually also cook the meals. Some days, even weeks go by and I might not talk to another adult, my brain gets fuzzled through lack of intelligent conversation, my brain is working overload so much that I often dream of organising clean nappies, and doing dd's lunches for her. Dh says going out to work is a break for him, he doesn't have to think on his own two feet much, he gets an allocated lunch break, lots of coffee breaks, is able to read the newspaper cover to cover and even manages a decent conversation with his work colleagues.

PamT, you may have to put up with an untidy house for a while. Men have different priorities over ours, so for them a sink full of washing up does not motivate them to grab the dishcloth, they'll leave it until they have run out of clean mugs and even then they may only wash that one mug that they need. They feel safe doing this knowing that you will sooner or later crack and end up doing it all yourself. No, it's his mess let him clean it. My dh also came from a house where his mother would slave over his father, but I would not let him use that as an excuse to treat me like his mother. He just had to change his ways or bugger off and find someone who would do all his stuff for him, luckily for me he saw sense and changed his ways!!!

It's not easy, but the more often you give in the more they will take advantage of you. Look at it like bringing up a toddler, if you let them get away with throwing their food on the floor, they will do it time and time again. You have to be strict with them, not give in, not once, if you do they just learn that mummy will give in sooner or later so they will do it more often. Men need to be trained like this (sorry Simon for offence here, I'm sure you're different!). It's no use reasoning with them, they need to see action. Remember, reason with women and action with men.

Good luck!

[PamT]

Oooh Rhubarb you are so strong, I wish I could be more assertive but I tend to come over all aggressive then dissolve into floods of tears. I think you should have your own TV show, "Training Men the Rhubarb Way" but as we know from other threads, the participants only come over as useless idiots (I might act like one sometimes but I wouldn't want it to be shown publicly).

My friend was all ready for thowing her DP out the other week and in a fit of rage she kicked over every chair around the table and threw stuff all around the living room. DP was so shocked when he came home (helped by the fact that his 2 friends were actually frightened that she might turn on them) that he has turned over a new leaf and has even asked her to marry him. He's never been so busy around the home and has done loads for the kids. I have often wanted to throw crockery but my better judgement kicks in and I know that I would only have to fork out to replace it.

[Shattered]

PamT, I know exactly what you mean. Even after the row we had (I went to bed early but asked him to clear the kitchen because I wasn't going to do it), I came out the next morning and half the dishes were still in the sink, the cat food had been left on the floor all night, and there was a blanket left lying on the sofa which he couldn't be bothered to fold up and put back in the cupboard after he'd used it. (Cupboard was about 2 feet away). He had gone to work, so once again I had to tidy up after him. He was a little better tonight when he got home from work, but as Rhubarb said, they just don't THINK. DS and I have both been sick and there was a number of things dh could have done to help me, but it just doesn't happen unless you ask.

[PamT]

And that's another cause for complaint. When I'm sick I have to look after myself and the kids and still cook, clean, wash etc. When he's sick he never moves off the settee, moaning and groaning and demanding this that and the other, I usually end up sending him to bed because at least I don't have to listen to him then. I do believe that you are correct in your conclusion that men just do not think.

[SimonHoward]

Rhubarb

DW didn't need to train me.

By the time she met me I had been in training for over 25 years. Both my parents were ex military so I got taught at an early age to just get on and do what needs doing.

If anything I'm the one that goes home and chases DW about things she should have done and that I am left with.

[Rhubarb]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Simon - send them all to military camp!

PamT and Shattered, your partners sound as if they really do think you are their mothers. Try dressing up as their mothers then, ask if they want spoon-feeding, bathing, a hand wiping their botty, etc. Keep this up and they will soon get the message - plus how many men would want to sleep with their mothers? Tell them this and keep sex off the agenda until they change their ways.

Failing that you could copy the woman out of the Carlsberg ads - how gross is that!!

[oxocube]

LOL Rhubarb! However, what if we discovered things about our d.hs we really would rather not know!!! I don't think I could ever take sex seriously again if I thought my d.h. wanted me to dress him in a nappy and spoonfeed him Weetabix

[winnie1]

Lol, rhubarb!!!

[Bozza]

Shattered - you have made a good start to improving your situation by posting on Mumsnet IMO. A few weeks ago I posted about my problems with DH (see Why am I so horrible to DH? thread under Relationships and got a really positive response with loads of helpful suggestions which really made me think things through. I also read part of Men are from Mars.... and thought about our communication problems. Anyway I had a talk with DH and explained my position and I think it really helped. I think a lot of it was that I was not really feeling appreciated and I was subconciously doing more and more around the house to get the appreciation - silly really. Also I was complaining when DH didn't do something or suggesting he did it rather than asking outright which has proved a lot more effective. And I think DH has put some effort in too. So although things aren't perfect they have improved loads and the advice I got on here was really helpful.

Last night DH even changed all the towels in the bathrooms and put them onto wash because I had mentioned his trainers could go in with them the night before. ie he remembered a full 24 hours and he even went into my gym bag to get the towel out of there. OK so he had to ask me which cycle to wash them on....

Actually I feel a little guilty because its obviously so much harder for you. DH does a lot of the post-meal clearing up, cuts the grass, will put washing out/bring in, put ironing away, do half the cleaning, load/unload the dishwasher, tidy the toys away,picks DS up from nursery because I work 3 days. Anyway my advice would be to try the direct approach (avoid suggesting/nagging) and ask him to do little things.