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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Relationships

Dh - I don't know if his behaviour should mean I LTB

28 replies

stankeryhank · 09/12/2016 00:09

DH had a terrible childhood abroad. Lots of death of loved ones, poverty and being passed from relative to relative until he was 16, when he escaped in the back of a truck to Europe.

There was nothing around at the time to help him, so he's morphed into an adult who quite obviously has PTSD and a range of other issues, but who refuses to acknowledge them.

This of course causes problems in our relationship. I want to give a couple of examples of what he has done:

  • My Nan died, suddenly, who I was very close to. DH was very involved in helping my family through the death and the admin and the funeral. He was an unbelievable star. We had a holiday booked months in advance, which meant we would fly out just after the funeral. I wanted to still go and be able to relax, get over things and DH blew up (shouting and screaming) about what a terrible person I was, how I must not have loved her at all, how I must be a psychopath for not observing any sort of grief period. It soon became evident that this was not about the holiday but that DH was looking for an excuse to get angry with someone because the death had triggered something within him. The awful part was, I WAS grieving, but there suddenly became no room for my grief, only his anger. So I was coping with losing my nan, on top of being shouted and screamed at for days and trying to comfort him.


  • I had a lot of pain straight after DS2 was born. I could barely walk or stand, so my attention had to turn to the bare minimum - caring for DS1 and for myself. DH had to work. However, the change of having DS2 and my usual attention having to briefly decrease to the minimum set DH off. Lots of shouting and storming about like a spoilt brat saying "what about me? You don't care about me anymore." So again, on top of terrible pain, a newborn and a needy toddler, I had to comfort and infantalise DH. Again, he was triggered.


  • DH fell out with a client. The client asked to have a meeting with him so they could sort things out and asked DH to bring a mediator. DH asked me so I went. In the waiting room, DH told me that I must agree with him on every point or be silent, and to not take the side of the client. I reminded him I was there as mediator to try and sort it out so both of them were happy. Out of nowhere, again, he started yelling at me, about how I don't support him, have no loyalty, I don't believe in him, that he's sure I would take the client's side, and that his own wife was "allied with the enemy" etc. It was almost as if he needed to offset his emotions before the meeting and decided it was much safer to do it with me. So out of nowhere, I got the full brunt of his anger with his client. (The meeting went right as rain, btw, because DH had vented before he went in.)


He does all of these things in public and in front of my family too. There is no different private/public persona. His reactions are quite spontaneous and un-thought- through. Very childish, basically.

The irony of all of this is that he is beyond wonderful in many ways. He would do anything for me and the kids or my family. When Nan died he was there at the moment it happened, making us all cups of tea, liaising with the hospital staff. He is the first to unblock a drain, drive out in the middle of the night to rescue someone who has had a breakdown, or take on the jobs that no-one else wants to do. He will always do the grunt work, the manual labour. He has bought both my parents and I a house and put them in our names.

ie, there is not an intention there to be like this, and this is what pulls me back from LTB every time.

But I also cannot carry on having the verbal and emotional shit kicked out of me every time something triggering happens. I can't see a lifetime of this. I have visions of being hooked up to a chemo drip in my 60s being treated for some aggressive cancer, and DH in the room with me ranting and raving at me - all because he feels threatened/insecure/triggered.

He will not acknowledge he is like this, so there is not even a first step towards getting help. He wants to lock himself in our house, never see people and never come out - that's his idea of security - hiding from all the threats. And of course, he wants me and the DC in there with him.

I suppose I'm asking - do you think there is a way to ride this out? Sometimes I can block out the shouting and I can remind myself that it is not me. But it is so exhausting. I am 35 now and have the energy to deal with him, but 50, 60, 70? I want peace.
OP posts:
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CondensedMilkSarnies · 09/12/2016 00:15

Your DH sounds tormented by his past which is understandable . It is not ok that he's taking it out on you .

I would give him an ultimatum - either seek counselling or the marriage is over .

No one in your family can live like this.

I'm surprised that if he blows up in front of family , they haven't said anything to him .

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Ohyesiam · 09/12/2016 00:34

Although he has my sympathy because of his past, it doesn't sound s of anyone v could live with him, and be a sounding board when he is triggered. Awful for the kids too. Record him next time, and play it back as you explain why you can't for with it. Then give him the ultimatum.

Good luck x

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Interesting2Me · 09/12/2016 00:39

You sound intelligent and compassionate and he sounds seriously damaged but not like a bad person. Just someone with terrible coping skills.

If you're willing to leave him over it eventually (which you should be) then why not basically lay down an ultimatum BEFORE his behavior kills your love for him.

It's seriously ultimatum time. He gets into therapy or your separate. I'd take the time to make this period unfortunately more uncomfortable to get to the better outcome which is him dealing with his issues.

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springydaffs · 09/12/2016 00:50

Sounds like there's a cultural angle to his expectations?

But screaming and ranting at you ' for days ' (Shock Sad) is not acceptable, regardless what's happened to him.

I'm sorry to say it but he seems to pull out the very worst at just the point you need support yourself. As you say, it puts him and his needs back to the top slot. He, and got, can't go on living with his belief that life owes him - and you should pay for it.

But, as I said, there's seems to be a cultural element here. He may also come from a culture that has antiquated views about women. Women AND mothers.

You're not his therapist. You're just a bog standard, ordinary human being - and his equal partner in life, to boot.

You can't live like this Sad

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stankeryhank · 09/12/2016 00:58

These are good replies, thank you.

I think there will have to be an ultimatum, I'm just not sure how to make it or when to make it.

DH also has night terrors - or whatever the adult version is. Where he wakes up screaming and crying and lashing out. He denies that this happens, so I recorded him once so that we could talk about it. That went down terribly and he got very upset and said it was a huge breach of privacy. I feel that if I recorded the rants he would say the same thing.

But then that puts us back in the cycle of him having a convenient emotional punchbag and wanting to keep the status quo

OP posts:
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CondensedMilkSarnies · 09/12/2016 01:04

It sounds as if he is in denial . Does he think it's normal to behave this way ? If he won't accept he has a problem then there's no chance of him getting help. In which case , you can only do what is best for you and your children .

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Atenco · 09/12/2016 03:03

Could you maybe find someone who has suffered in a similar way to convince him to get help?

Maybe the Refugee council could help you there.

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junebirthdaygirl · 09/12/2016 09:06

I suppose it would be impossible to be " normal" in the situation your dh has come out of. Think it's a good suggestion to approach the refugee council as maybe they have free counselling for families stuck in this situation or maybe there are other charities working in that area. The one thing you can't do is continue as you are. Your dc will be badly affected not to talk about you. Could you say you love him but he needs help and he has to access it. Maybe don't say yet you will leave him as that fear of abandonment will overwhelm him and stop him getting help. Although of course you are free to leave him.if he doesn't do it.
Do ye know any other families who were refugees who might talk to him about help they received? It's a very difficult situation for you. After all he has been through l hope ye can get help but at the end of the day you have to take care of yourself and your dc.

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NotTheFordType · 09/12/2016 09:12

That went down terribly and he got very upset and said it was a huge breach of privacy. I feel that if I recorded the rants he would say the same thing.

It would only be a breach of his privacy if you showed them to other people.

He is very determined not to address his own behaviour, isn't he? First he denies that he does it. Then when you prove that he does, you are now a terrible person. The focus is shifted back to your behaviour and how fucking terrible of a wife are you because you're not just laying there and letting him get on with using you as emotional punchbag/teddybear.

I would try an ultimatum, but to be honest I think you will have to leave to protect your own sanity and that of your children. How long do you think it will be before they become the target of his rages?

He may be a lovely man 95% of the time, but 5% shit is still 5% too much. Would you eat a sandwich which was labelled "No more than 5% human faeces" ?

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LeopardPrintSocks1 · 09/12/2016 09:19

Tell him to get therapy or you'll LTB. Somethings got to change. Your children will soon talk to you that way.

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Kr1stina · 09/12/2016 09:45

He's abusive.

Almost Everyone who is abusive is that way because of shit that has happened in their past. It doesn't make it ok .

So if he won't get help for his problems , you have two choices . Put up with this and watch your children being abused . Or leave.

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Kr1stina · 09/12/2016 09:47

And its not a breach of privacy for you to talk to someone about your own life.

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CondensedMilkSarnies · 09/12/2016 10:10

Do you think his reluctance to seek help is because he enjoys yelling at you ? If he loves you he wouldn't want to be screaming and yelling at you , he's using his past as an excuse .

A bad past may be the reason someone behaves as they do but it's not an excuse

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pointythings · 09/12/2016 10:17

If he will not acknowledge that he has a major problem and seek help, there is no future for your marriage. It is ultimatum time and you have to follow through for the sake of your DCs. They should not grow up with this, it will damage them.

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ElspethFlashman · 09/12/2016 10:23

You have great insight.

However I would like to ask about this:
He does all of these things in public and in front of my family too. There is no different private/public persona. His reactions are quite spontaneous and un-thought- through

Is it only YOU he abuses? As in, does he scream at clients? At the bloke in the garage? At his colleagues? At the guy who cuts him off in a car park?

Cos you say it's spontaneous but if it's only directed at you.....then sorry, but he absolutely 100% has control .

So it's personal, you see?

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hellsbellsmelons · 09/12/2016 10:24

Does he do this to you so your DC can hear it all?
If so then you know you need to get away.
You cannot have your DC being brought up in such an awful environment.
It will teach them all sorts of awful relationship lessons that they will copy as they grow older and form their own relationships.
Whether that be as the 'victim' or the 'abuser'
Please don't do it to them.
If he won't admit to it or have counselling then you have no other option than to get out of that awful atmosphere and live your life happy and free from 'abuse!'

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SandyY2K · 09/12/2016 10:33

I suppose I'm asking - do you think there is a way to ride this out?

You can't ride it out, otherwise it will wear you down. I won't say LTB either, but he needs counselling, otherwise there will be tremendous damage done to the marriage.

I'm weary of issuing ultimatums. They come over as a threat and immediately make the person defensive.

Instead phrase it along these lines ...

"I love you very much, I appreciate how supportive you are and how good you were when [insert detail], ..I know the difficulties you went through were devasting. I'm worried that our marriage won't survive unless you should get some counselling to help. Because I'm not sure how much more of this I can cope with.


That's not a threat. It shows care and love.

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ElspethFlashman · 09/12/2016 10:34

I am also wondering......if you were no longer living together... would he blow up LESS?

If his punchbag was gone, then would he stop exploding as it would be too difficult to find another one?

I would also point out that at the moment he has ONE punchbag. As the children get older and react in unpredictable ways that trigger him, he will be living with THREE.

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TheSparrowhawk · 09/12/2016 11:45

The line in your OP about wanting to lock you all in the house gave me the shivers. He is potentially dangerous. This level of threat perception, fear and denial is a toxic, explosive mix. You do not have to bear the brunt of this.

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SandyY2K · 09/12/2016 11:59

Just to add that you can't mediate on a situation with your DH. It just wouldn't be impartial.

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Hermonie2016 · 09/12/2016 14:05

My stbex had a dreadful upbringing which I only discovered the extent of when he went to counselling 4 years ago.

Sadly it didnt make it better, actually worse as the focus was on bringing up feelings but not on how to deal with them.It meant at home he was explosive, the best way to describe it is that his nerve endings seem to be external so anything seems to be a trigger.

The biggest issue you face is denial, as to him it's just his reaction.I am now separated as it became too challenging to live with, exactly for the reason you gave, I imagined being old and still subjected to anger.

Some things I have learnt.Put in place boundaries, when stbex was angry I would calmly ask him to speak respectful to me.It often calmed the situation.It is however exhausting and after 4 years of worsening behaviour I had to accept I was getting less from the relationship and needed to put myself first.

Don't recommend counselling unless trauma specialised, some counsellors could make it worse.CBT could be an avenue alongside books such as Chimp Paradox which helps to explain emotional reactions.Also Dan Siegel books, often aimed at parenting but very well written.

Lastly I think counselling is perhaps an inflammatory word so you could suggest coaching for more positive interactions.

To those saying he only does it to you, I know how that feels, however I also know it's only me that stbex felt he could share those buried feelings.He has such pressure to just be nice around everyone else that his anger gets stored up.
Anger is often the secondary emotion and fear or shame is the primary emotion.
Inner child work may help but does require effort from the individual.

It will not be overnight, if you start this journey of healing don't expect quick results.The brain can rewire but takes time and practice.If he doesn't take it onboard there will be no change to your situation.

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Interesting2Me · 09/12/2016 14:12

Almost Everyone who is abusive is that way because of shit that has happened in their past.

I don't think that's true. Also, I think it's clear that he really is damaged. He's not making it up or pretending, his own quality of life seems to be very poor due to his PTSD. OP isn't stupid and she clearly hasn't absorbed the perspective of an abusee (it's all my fault etc etc). She understands that she's not to blame.

The problem OP is that you really do have a responsibility to protect your children and yourself. Also, frankly, he may be happier if he is pushed into getting help once he realizes the stakes.

The most important thing to do is offer an ultimatum now BEFORE you get to the point where you feel you can't forgive him. If you continue to be understanding and kind, but subjugate your own needs then you'll hit a wall and ask for divorce. He'll then realize how serious this is and beg for another chance but by then you'll feel like you no longer love him due to the trauma of your marriage. Better to draw a line now, then you have all the love and capacity for forgiveness whilst he gets better.

I feel, more than anyone else I think I've ever seen who posted with an angry explosive husband, that your marriage is 100% fixable. There is no reason that you can't help him become the calm loving man that you wish was there 100% of the time. But you have to give him an ultimatum. You can't love him better. He needs to do it for HIMSELF when he realizes what he has to lose. If you give him an ultimatum NOW, you can probably transform this relationship. In ten years you'll look back and be so happy about what you came through together and survived.

But, it's important to do this is a structured and organized way.

NEXT STEPS

  1. Surround yourself with a lot of support, including a counsellor for you and explain to your trusted family/close friends exactly what you are doing and why.


  1. Send the kids away to family for something and sit him down at a good time and be clear with him that you love him but you WILL NOT LIVE THIS WAY. Maybe write it down as well in a letter.


  1. I would insist on a temporary separation. I would ask him to move out and to earn his way back home. This gives everyone breathing room and also a short unhappy preview of what losing you would look like.


  1. Have concrete steps in place for him to do. He must e.g. agree to counselling and medication etc. He must admit he has a problem. He must stop yelling etc. It's damaging to the children, it's damaging to you, it's damaging to him. Be very specific.


  1. Keep telling him you still love him AND DO NOT WANT TO DIVORCE.


  1. Keep inviting him to things. Plus, this is the one marital instance where I would involve family. By which I mean I would explain to your family that you love him AND WANT TO STAY MARRIED but he is sick and needs help. Everyone should be rooting for him to get better. I would encourage them to still reach out to him and beg him to get help. Explain to the kids that daddy is sick etc. Everyone should be lovingly asking him to get help. If he feels that he loved and it is a safe space for him, he should be willing to do the work.


  1. Do some research into women's aid. If he becomes violent or threatens you then you know that, PTSD or no PTSD, you are not safe with him.


  1. Accept that this may take some time. Keep communicating and reaching out to your support network.


Again, this is the only bad marriage I've ever seen here that I truly believe you could post truthfully in a year and be saying "I'm so happy, we have the best marriage in the world" and be right. This marriage can be everything you want it to be but self sacrifice won't get it there. A lovingly delivered ultimatum, not in anger or as a knee jerk reaction or last resort, but as part of a careful plan is the best chance you have of saving this marriage.

I've seen this work in an addiction scenario and tbh, I've also seen it fail. You should talk this plan over with a counsellor or trusted family in advance, read up on PTSD etc. Seriously, good luck.
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Interesting2Me · 09/12/2016 14:14

Hermonie2016

I'm interested since you're experienced in this area and you seem to understand perfectly what is going on. What do you think of a thoughtful separation as I posted above?

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Kr1stina · 09/12/2016 14:40

He shouts and screams at her for days when she does something he doesn't like
He shouts and screams at his wife when she is in terrible pain
He kicks the verbal and emotional shit out of her
He wants to lock himself and his family is the house and never come out again .

I'm not sure this is man I would be giving ultimatums to. I think he sounds potentially dangerous and I'd be wanting to have an expert advise on this before I did anything .

This most dangerous time for any abused woman is when she tried to leave. Two women a week are killed by their partner or former partner - this isn't a theoretical risk.

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Hermonie2016 · 09/12/2016 14:44

Interestig2me,

Excellent advice and one I wish I had read years ago. What can easily happen is a negative downward spiral. I just couldn't understand his irrational responses to 'normal' situations and started to fall out of trust and then love with him. My responses were often not as calm, as I felt under threat and that allowed the blame cycle to continue.
I also reached my limit and wanted a divorce, first time was 2 years ago, in reflection it was to make it all just stop. Once you get into a cycle of disconnection it's a fast road to divorce.

Only on reflection, since separation, have I realised that firm boundaries expressed calmly did actually work but it's not immediate so I couldn't see progress.

stbex emotional reactions were those of a little boy as his abusive background did not allow him to develop emotionally. Externally he is a very successful and competent adult and does not appear to show the anxiety that goes on inside.

Upshot however is that whilst I had to deal with stbex emotions I couldn't be sure if 100% of the time stbex would be there for me and I was exhausted and drained by it all. We also had additional challenges such as a step family which made life more complex and less enjoyable.

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