H's brother and his brass neck

[bullinthesea]

Hello Ladies, you might remember me, from a couple of years ago, when I posted about my husband's affair: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/a1782820-My-DH-has-had-an-emotional-affair and you might remember that I stayed with him, in an attempt to repair the marriage. We have a DS age 9.
Everyone thought it would be best to LTB, and I think deep down, I know that this is probably for the best, really. I don't know why I have kept trying - weakness I suppose), but I thought that a split would seriously mess up my child (and myself) and really couldn't bear the thought of it.

My post today concerns H's Brother, and the requests that he makes of this family, that I think are just plain cheeky.

1st, his brother is 41, has 3 kids, and is separated from the mothers. He has had serious issues with gambling & bankruptcy, and wanted to rent a flat about a year ago. He asked H to be a guarantor at first. Initially, we discussed it, decided we couldn't afford it if brother couldn't pay his rent for any reason, and said no. Then, next thing I know, H says to me "Don't worry, I've sorted it, he's put me down as a tenant", which of course is even worse, as now we're liable for all the bills & rates too, in the event of brother not paying.

2nd, last week, brother phones up (the phone was on speakerphone, so I could hear) and he was telling H that his car insurance was due, and that it was going to cost too much. I was thinking 'and?....why are you telling us?' , he then asked H if he could put him down as the main driver on the car, to bring his bill down . Luckily, H said no, as he has points on his licence (but I did wonder what he would have said, if he did not have any points). It's known as fronting, and the insurance companies are all too aware of it. H could end up in serious trouble.

3rd, brother is currently on holiday with his new girlfriend (of about 6 months). He phoned us on Sunday, to tell us that he's run out of money, and he wants H to transfer some money to him (he's only there for a week!), oh, only £300. (He's due back on Tues). H couldn't do the payment on Sunday, as he can't seem to log onto his bank on our laptop, so he left it until the Monday (yesterday). I return home from work to discover that H's Mum has been trying to phone me, on my mobile phone. When I txt to find out what's up, she says that the brother needs H, and to get him to contact her ASAP. H also received alarmed messages of emergency from her.
It turns out, its all because brother hasn't got the money yet.
I can't believe that he'd got MIL involved (she's abroad herself ffs). So, then H gets in touch, the brother says he can't receive the money to his phone (they decide to use pingit) so can H send it to the new girlfriend's phone? He says yes. Then, a request comes through to H, for £400! It turns out that for some reason, they couldn't afford their hotel bill .
H then paid it, only to discover afterwards, that it has put us overdrawn!!
I am so cross. My name is also on this account, so it's now a joint debt ffs.

I have discussed with H, the need to have some boundaries with his brother, because he really does take the piss.
He says "yeah, but he's my brother, he shoved a few quid my way when I was at uni, he's family, etc etc"

I even said last night, that I am prepared to pay for the brother to take classes in personal budgeting/financial planning etc. H just laughed, and said "yeah right, I can really see him doing that".
I was thinking more along the lines of teaching him to be more responsible with his own money, instead of these ridiculous situations keep cropping up, all the time.

Also couldn't understand why MIL didn't sort it out herself, he's not our responsibility after all. She had all day, and yet we were both at work.

Lastly, the brother has no pension provision. I talked to H about this last night. I asked him if we're expected to fund his retirement aswell, when he runs out of money? "No, don't be silly" came the answer...

[DrElizabethPlimpton]

OMG. I'm sorry to say OP that this isn't going to end anytime soon. What motivation does your BIL have to sort his finances out? Zero, in my opinion.

If I was you, I would separate my finances from your H and clearly - in words of one syllable- tell him this nonsense stops now. If he doesn't agree to protect his immediate family from this financial risk, I would separate to not only protect your own financial position, but to get out of a relationship with someone who puts a feckless brother before his wife.

[TaliZorahVasNormandy]

Yeah, I'd go for separate finances. If your wimp of a DH wants to spend his spare cash then he can, he wont be spending yours.

[bullinthesea]

Thanks for your replies. He earns 5 times what I do, so separating finances might be hard!
Although that decision might be taken out of my hands, as he was talking about putting the house in just my name the other day, and it sounded like he was thinking of leaving.
He said that I had him down as a Casanova, and that he doesn't think that I'll ever trust him again.
He said it would be to make me feel more secure (sounded more like he's halfway out the door to me) in case anything happens

[MistressDeeCee]

Seperate finances completely.

This is the 2nd thread Ive read on here about pain in the ass brothers whose shit behaviour is being enabled. His mother needs to butt right out completely but of course she won't..she is another enabler.

Even if your DH earns 5 times as much as you the fact he is putting his wayward brother before you should be the more salient point. Maybe he does want to leave, it sounds like it from what he says. To be honest you'd be better off without the lot of them. Oh yes...I just bet he will put the house in your name...

How much more unstable can he make you...? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with this man and the shadow of his brother in your lives? There will come a point - if it hasn't already arrived - when whatever you say about his brother and his drain on your finances will have no meaning, because he and his family won't care what you have to say. Its nearly at that stage already.

Its a mad situation and Im sorry to hear you are in it but please, don't put up with it. Your DH can go and shack up with his brother and kiss his ass for the rest of his life if he likes, hopefully with you far away from all of this.

[bullinthesea]

Thanks Mistress, I appreciate your post.

I've just remembered something else that he had done, that is very irresponsible financially (I didn't intend to dripfeed, but I have literally just remembered this at 2.20am!)

1. He has in the past, taken out credit cards in his name, but for his friends to use. On one occasion, (after we were married) I was tidying, and came across a credit card statement. It was for £10K, and I knew absolutely nothing about it. It turned out it was for our friend. I was shocked. He told me it was ok, as the friend was paying it back. I was very unhappy that he had done it, and that he had kept it a secret from me. If anything had happened to him, that debt would have become mine surely?
   

He has done this credit card thing for numerous friends in the past. Why do they always ask him? It is bizarre. None of my friends have ever asked me to do this. I find it very odd. He only told me about the other friends using them many years later.

1. The same friend once asked H, if he would take out a mortgage in his name, so that he could get a property to do up and then sell. H told me about it, and I basically said that if he did it, then we would be finished. It was before we moved in together, but still, I was shocked that his friend had the cheek to even ask, and that H was dumb enough to go along with it.
   

1. H's brother wanted to buy a business not long ago. H was saying that he'd like to 'help' out financially (several grand) with this. We do not have the resources for this, so I assume he meant taking out a loan that we can't afford. He hadn't talked this through with me, he had just decided himself.
   

What worries me so very much, is the willingness that H has, to just go along with other peoples requests. It's like he doesn't have the filter that most of us have, where, before doing something like this, you think 'is this really such a good idea? I will discuss it with my spouse'.

To be honest, I'm actually scared of what he might do next, without telling me. I'm up at silly o'clock worrying about this.

[bullinthesea]

Oh, and when I was telling him that I was unhappy about him being a tenant on his brother's tenancy agreement, because it puts us at financial risk, he said that I was catastrophising, and imagining the worst, and that the risk is very small not sure what planet he's living on. It's all me, being unreasonable apparently

[MistressDeeCee]

OP your DH sounds like a massive people-pleaser. There may be huge self-esteem issues in there somewhere, or perhaps a need to be seen as the all powerful man who has it all and can fix everything..he who must be revered, but in your shoes I wouldn't give a damn what the reason was.

Its a real shame because people-pleasers aren't liked very much, generally. The requests to them simply become more and more outrageous as those who are taking the piss out of him lose even more respect for him, for being a soft touch.

I think this is something he will have to sort out for himself and you will have to tell him to leave. That will give you an opportunity to sort out your emotional and financial stability, which this man is casually eroding.

You are "catastrophising?". This man is a walking disaster, a catastrophe waiting to happen, and Im pretty sure that if/when he falls on his backside he won't get any outside help. If you stay with him though, you will suffer the fallout. He doesn't respect you, and that will become more apparent in time but I feel you know this already.

Please get rid of him..he needs to go back and live with mummy now. You are not his healer, or fixer, he isn't your child that you can perhaps chivy along. You must have the patience of a saint, honestly.

I don't think you can stay with this man and I think his actions in themselves will make the choice for you..your relationship will become untenable. Im not sure if you have DCs but either way, its time to abandon a sinking ship and have the chance of a life of less stress, without a fritterer who is more interested in pleasing others than you

[MistressDeeCee]

Meant to add, even though it may be painful separating at first you really will be happier, and relieved in the long run. & however long that run is...just run!

[temperamentalamongcorvids]

I remember you, Bull

You could be shot of both of them, you know.

[tippytap]

Hi Bull,it isn't your bill that's the problem. It's your DH.
If your DH said 'no', these things wouldn't keep happening.

I think you're blaming your bil instead of your DH because the more issues you have with your DH the more obvious it is how broken your marriage is.

Honestly, is this what you want your life to be like?

You don't need something big and bad to happen to leave. You can just say that enough is enough.

Be kind to yourself. Xx

[Greenrememberedhills]

This is not a man who cares very much about your thoughts, feelings or worries , even now.

I think MistressDC is right. I can't think how you are getting much from the relationship.

[ememem84]

Agree. Your dh is the main issue. Not Bil. Although if Bil didn't keep asking dh wouldn't keep agreeing...

I'd try as much as you can to separate finances.

If dh is tenant on Bil's lease could you not just tell landlord that it's a mistake? (This could cause all sorts of hassle so beware)

I'd also check to see what sort of debt/security is registered against your house - if dh is thinking to transferring to your name. You don't want to be liable

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

What are you getting out of this relationship now?.

You've probably still tried because you still keep putting his needs above yours. Perhaps you thought he would change (no they do not change and he will continue to enable his brother for the rest of his days out of some misplaced feelings of guilt and obligation). I would read up on co-dependency and see how much of that fits in with you.

Do not stay for your son, is this really what you want him to be learning about relationships?. What do you think he is learning here?. People in healthy relationships simply do not behave as your DH has done.

You cannot rescue and or save someone who simply does not want to be saved.

[ravenmum]

Are you sure that the credit cards are for his friends, and that's not just a story he's telling to cover up his own gambling problem or other debts? If he makes plenty of money, why would 400 quid leave you overdrawn?

He needs your permission to put the house in just your name. Don't give it to him, or sign anything without legal advice; separate your finances asap, before he pulls some kind of "clever" trick that leaves you with massive personal debts.

[bullinthesea]

Thank you all for your replies, I have such a lot to think about here.

ememem84 - how would I find out about any debts/security against the house? There should be no debts on it, as I used my inheritance money to pay off the mortgage about 7years ago.

[BertrandRussell]

Honestly? This isn't a problem with the holiday money- it seems perfectly normal to me to bung a sibling a couple of hundred quid if they are in trouble- but with your husband and his brother's approach to financial affairs. They are as bad as each other-with the "fronting" and the credit cards. And they will come unstuck one day. You have to disentangle your finances- if I were you I would start by opening a new bank account and putting your salary in that.

[Roussette]

Has he or your been on Experian and looked at his credit rating? I have no idea how he has managed to do all this stuff for other people, the hoops you have to jump through just to open a bank account with rules on money laundering etc.

I would go apeshit if my DH did just one of these things that you are talking about. Why do you accept any of this? I have no idea if your DH is a people pleaser, or just plain stupid but he sounds like he is some sort of crook or wheeler dealer doing this stuff for all these people. I'm all for helping family or friends out but not like this. His DB shouldn't be going on holiday if he can't afford it. Your DH sounds a complete and utter nightmare.

As for the credit cards for other people - I would say that's bullshit and they are his. No one with even half a brain cell would take out credit cards with £10K on for someone else.

[WhoNickedMyName]

you have a DH problem, not a BIL problem.

seems your H lacks appropriate boundaries in all areas of his life. I doubt there's much you can do about it.

[BertrandRussell]

He's not a people please, or unable to say no or any of that. He and his brother are both wheeler dealers who lack a normal sense of financial probity. Do not allow yourself to be drawn into their rather murky world.

[bullinthesea]

Ok, step one, I have just been on the experian website, to credit check myself. I can't check him without his permission I don't think.

We do have a joint account (for bills etc), and separate accounts for wages to be paid into, however, a couple of years ago, he asked me to put myself onto his wages account too, as we wanted to get this insurance thing, which required me to go on it.

Can anyone think of any other checks that I can get started on?

I'm trying to think practically, but I'm also on the verge of tears this morning, and only got about 2 hours sleep last night (I also have PMS, which really doesn't help!)

Your posts are helpful, thank you to everyone that's taken the time.

[bullinthesea]

To make things worse, I became financially dependent on him when I had DS (he convinced me to leave my full time job, wish I hadn't now), at the time, I completely trusted him, and believed him to be a decent guy.
During the time I was home caring for DS, we couldn't afford to pay anything into my pension. It worried me.
I'm gradually changing that, now that I have a part time job (which fits in with school runs etc), but it's slow progress, and my wages are low and wouldn't even cover half of the running costs of the house if he left. I've been trying to put any surplus money that I have each month into my pension, to make up for the lost years. It doesn't leave me with much.
He unfortunately holds most of the financial power, as he earns far more than I do. I'm scared that he'll completely screw me over if we separate.

[badbaldingballerina123]

My ex husband was financially dodgy and irresponsible. Also a ridiculous people pleaser. I ended up with charging orders (or something similar ) on the house due to his unpaid debts. He self destructed financially during the divorce and we lost everything. It was a horrible time , I never recovered financially but I'm not sorry one bit. I don't miss living like that. I still get chased for his debts now.

This would fall under financial abuse / emotional abuse possibly . My advice is to speak to women's aid and take their advice about documenting this with someone official. That way you will qualify for legal aid should you divorce. They DONT suddenly start being financially responsible once divorce proceedings start.

[bullinthesea]

Omg BadBaldingB, that's really awful. How long is it since you separated?

[badbaldingballerina123]

This was eight years ago. He continued his financial abuse through the divorce. I gave up perusing any financial settlement it just wasn't worth it. I just wanted rid.

He also had a toxic dysfunctional family/ mother .My understanding is that this type of behaviour e.g. financial abuse , affairs , extreme people pleasing ect are typical in men who come from these families. They come across as naive nice guys but they are far from it. It's all about secrets and deception.

[badbaldingballerina123]

I remember your previous thread. It's highly unlikely that it wasn't physical. I'd be surprised if that was the only time . Their extreme need for approval overrides anything else. It's clear he's had no trouble deceiving you for a long time regarding finances.. It's my experience that a deceptive person does not limit their deception to just one area of their life. They are not honest with anyone including themselves.