My parents as grandparents, I need help please!

[weedinthepool]

My parents & I have always had a difficult relationship due to them generally having an idea I was being sexually abused when I was 4 but not doing anything about it (a Dr told my mum something wasn't right physically & she dragged me out of there & lied to social services). They have since denied this & won't take any responsibility (2 other children in their care were also abused & still no responsibility taken, not their fault it was the abusers).

So emotionally not great but practically very supportive, particularly with 3 dc's & helping me leave my sexually & physically abusive H.

HOWEVER, as grandparents they have been tricky to handle. They have worshipped their GC (they have 5 inc my 3 and my 2 DN). They have insisted on doing a fair bit if childcare when my sis & I worked. I haven't always felt comfortable with this & have balanced paying childcare with maybe 1 day of them having the kids. Kind of to keep them happy. My sis has only used them. The problem has been that my dad in particular has undermined & put down us, the parents, consistently in front if the kids. Taking my dc's out if time out when I've put them in it, told me to stop telling them off & they have generally been competitive telling the dc's that the Xmas presents from us, their parents were rubbish compared to what the grandparents bought etc. loads & loads of stuff like that.

So now the dc's (mine & my dn's) behaviour with them is off the scale. All the dc's behave very well at school, with other grandparents etc but there is a distinct lack of respect for my parents from the dc's

Yesterday my DN kicked my mum in a restaurant obviously my mum was v.upset. My dad has just rung me (yes it's all my fault even though DN is not my child!) and said they need a talk. They put in all this effort, they are getting nothing back from any of the GC and they buy them lots & take them out everywhere & the DC's don't respect them. They are not grateful enough. I need to do something etc. He was really angry. The Dc's are 11,7,7,3 & 3.

I work really hard with my dc's on their behaviour, they are well behaved everywhere but with my parents. I generally remove them as soon as they start to misbehave, I take them home, I remove luxuries & I put them in time out. My eldest (11) has pointed out how badly my parents (my dad really) speaks to me. How can I explain during this 'talk' that I understand the dc's are difficult and that I agree that they need to behave better however my parents also need to change the way they deal with them/allow their parents to take control? The lack of respect is unique to my parents and I will take full responsibility for my dc's behaviour and I certainly don't condone it but how do I make them see that if I work to change my dc's behaviour they need to change too?

Sorry this is so long but I really need some help from you, am I in the wrong here? Is my perspective skewed and I just need to address my dc's behaviour? Please be honest x

[weedinthepool]

I know who the abuser was, he did it for a decade, it was a member of my mums family.

I know things need to change but I'm not sure how to do it?! Xx

[TheOneWiththeNicestSmile]

Could you speak to your dad with your 11-year-old? Hearing it from the horse's mouth might make him think (unless in his head it'll be you putting words in the child's mouth )

Your dad absolutely doesn't deserve any respect from his grandchildren (or his children!) until he treats the family with respect himelf.

[Meerka]

I'm afraid I'd be pointing out that yes, if lack of respect is shown then it runs two ways.

They've undermined you, refused to set (reasonable) limits and refused to allowe consequences for actions. Of course the children are going to play up. They are fine in any other situation, so it's probably not them.

Now they can either sit down with you and try to work this out together, how to put more appropriate limits in place and create more constructive grandparent-grandchild relations, or they can get angry and blame the children. They also need to understand that how they speak to you teaches the children how they can speak to others.

This'll be a hard pill for them to swallow but frankly if they've undermined you, it's about time they faced it. You're both holding up a mirror to them and offering a more constructive way forward.

There is no other way to say it other than bluntly I think. You can be calm while you're doing it, that would work better. In fact I think I'd suggest that they come to your house after the children are in bed one evening and say this.

Or alternatively since you're not actually all that comfortable with them doing childcare, suggest that it's not working and you're all better off with them seeing the children for shorter times.

I do think you should tell the children that this behaviour is not acceptable though. But I don't think I'd be doing the grandparents' work for them, given how they speak to you and undermine you.

[Meerka]

I'm afraid that in order to get change, sometimes you need to rock the boat weedinthepool. I get the feeling that you're a bit afraid to face your father down? I think you're going to have to if you really want things to change. Unless you simply take the children there less.

If it's any help most people usually get upset when someone starts behaving differently and more assertively, then they adjust and settle down into the new status quo. So it's (usually) a matter of expecting some waves of anger/upset, then they will pass.

[weedinthepool]

Yes I am definitely afraid to confront my parents. Whenever I have confronted them in the past about their undermining tendencies I have just been shouted down, been told I am ungrateful told that I am wrong about the situation.

Hence why I am really angry at their refusal to take responsibility whilst not knowing what to do with it. My boundaries with them are skewed because I don't / can't stand up to them.

[weedinthepool]

Meerka their switch to focussing and blaming the children is worrying as it shows they are doing what they did to us as children to the next generation. Simply because they can't or don't want to admit that they have made mistakes. The lack of respect their GC have for them isn't down to them as they just can't cope with that theory.

[ivykaty44]

you don't have the talk - you explain that this situation just isn't working and you have decided that it is going to change. Then change the arrangements

If you want go and find a brick wall - bang your head against the brick wall for several minutes - this you will find is an easier experience and probably less painful than having a chat with your parents. All your parents want is to tell you what to do and ignore you. So why bother?

[chimichanga1976]

Hi weedinthepool, I can't offer any more practical advice and I fully back everything that's already been said by pp. You can try, of course, but it doesn't look like this will be rectified given that your 11yr old has already told you what they've observed, and the other kids will obviously be aware too that you're being undermined and your authority challenged.

Your younger kids prob just can't yet verbalise that it makes them unhappy hearing their mother being talked to like dirt, therefore it manifests in misbehaving. I don't think it's solely down to lack of boundries by your parents, not if they disrespect you in front of the kids.

I am presuming this abuser is well out of the picture now? I do fully agree with KatelynB, too. The first priority of any loving parent should be to protect their kids. This is a no-brainer and should be human instinct. Your parents let you down so badly I would have a hard time having any type of relationship with them, if it were me.

My advice is don't let them be with the kids unsupervised anymore. And, if after your talk nothing has changed and they still undermine you, wash your hands of them completely. They don't even deserve to play at "Grandparents" imo. Are you meant to have amnesia, and forget what happened to you as a child, just to suit them? I just feel very aggrieved on your behalf re your past basically being swept under the carpet tbh!

[Meerka]

I think that you need to quietly arrange for different childcare then too.

I also think that it would be a good idea to read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward. There's a lot of good stuff in there about handling difficult parents.

Because you are afraid of them, I also think you may benefit from (skilled) counselling. It's not a cure-all and it's not for everyone but if it helps, it can really help. You shouldn't have to be afraid of them.

I actually think the past silence about abuse and the current situation are two different things. But the way that was handled will inevitably colour the way you feel about them and the way you are able to be with them.

But you are entitled to stand up for yourself!

[weedinthepool]

Oh yes, my past (& the experiences of the other 2 girls) have been firmly swept under the carpet. I have been told under no circumstances should I discuss the abuse with the other 2, even though one of them approaches me repeatedly. My abuser is completely NC as are the whole side of mums family who also swept it all under the carpet. I think banging my head against a brick wall is a spot on analogy. I want them to have a good relationship with their GC but if facilitating it means I have to sacrifice respect for myself & from my dc's I will have to say no.

[chimichanga1976]

Also, Weed, what is your sister doing about the problem? Did you say her kids also play up when with your parents?

If so, maybe she could also be there during the talk, especially if you feel your courage waning, she would have your back? Just thinking, there's power in numbers and if she's experiencing similar issues, they can't just shout you both down can they? And deflect the blame!! Buggers, honestly!!

Hell, get your sister's partner there too, then they're well and truly outnumbered!

Best wishes with what you decide,sending you support vibes : )

[Meerka]

Your parents have no right whatsoever to tell you who to can talk to about it and whom not. I hope that you were able to ignore them and respond to the other girl's approaches if you wanted to.

[weedinthepool]

We are in contact Meerka, albeit surreptitiously!

My poor sis has had my poor DN to the doctors today because my parents insisted he goes for his behavioural issues. Dr laughed them out of there & his teacher was shocked as he's the model pupil at school. They control my dsis more than me. Last night they told her DH to not interfere!!!! As he was going to help my sister out with telling my nephew he was wrong to kick. I'm fuming! How dare they insist he is seen by a dr! Poor dn was gutted!

[chimichanga1976]

Then you have a chat with the lass that is repeatedly approaching you. What's the worst that will happen? Nobody will die if you just have a chat and listen to what she says. The poor girl sounds desperate and knows that you, at least, can empathise. She's trying to sort it out in her head as a means of moving on so a chat may well be mutually beneficial?

This is not Big Brother, how would your parents find out anyway? But I do feel concerned and troubled by how much power they seem to have over you and how scared you are of them. This is coming across loud and clear in your posts.

But I repeat, what is the worst that can happen? You are a grown up, intelligent, autonomous woman and you are DEFINATELY stronger than you think you are!

This is not a dictatorship so don't let yourself be dictated to. Your life is in your hands, you're master of your own destiny. I've learned the hard way that to be around people who have a negative influence on my life is particularly damaging to my sense of self. And I've culled a lot of idiots from my life over the years and am flipping better off for it!

You are the biggest, most important role model for your kids. They will want to emulate you. Be the role model that you would have liked as a child!

All the best X

[cailindana]

Why do you want your children to have a relationship with people who facilitate abuse the abuse of children and continue to abuse you in front of your children?

Your own parents failed to protect you. You know exactly what that feels like. And now you are doing exactly the same thing to your own children - you are subjecting them to family members who only want to hurt them.

It has to stop, now.

[ajandjjmum]

I think you have made some very clear and powerful points in this thread, but appreciate you won't be able to be so forthright speaking to your parents.

Don't let them call the shots. Write them a letter, and hand it to them saying that if you try to discuss the situation like adults, they will end up shouting you down, and you are not prepared to accept that.

Tell them you will meet when they are prepared to discuss the issues sensibly and respectfully.

And the second they revert to form, get up and walk out.

[mamaslatts]

Why would you leave your children in the care of adults with a terrible track record for safe guarding children??

That alone would mean the most they could ever expect from me would be supervised access. The fact that they are still bullying and belittling you and are still trying to control your response to the abuse they allowed (by not allowing to talk to this other victim) and I don't know how you manage to have any civil relationship with them at all.

[IloveJudgeJudy]

I've had a sort of similar experience. My father behaved very badly while bringing my DS1 home from school and a couple of other times. I didn't realise straight away, but as soon as I did, my DC were completely removed from any care that he might have given.

I'm not going to lie; it did cause a huge upset in my wider family. We wouldn't have father in the house and so DM refused to come unless he were also invited. That did change after a few months; she did come to us on her own. My DBs got involved and thought we were unreasonable, even though, if it had been their DC, they would have reacted in a similar fashion. Things have never got back to the same footing with my siblings or my DM (though part of that may be down to the way they have behaved while my teenage DD is now having some MH problems). However, despite all that, we do not regret at all the actions we took. You have to show your DC that you are there for them.

As your DC has already pointed out to you that your father doesn't behave correctly, your only course of action imo is to ensure that your parents never again look after your DC. If you don't you may end up losing your DC in the end.

[IloveJudgeJudy]

Meant to add, we also had to be very vigilant whenever my father was present at any occasion. We could not trust him to behave properly and talk to any DC in an appropriate manner. He was a bully.

[DayLillie]

I would withdraw the children from their care and into full formal childcare, on the basis that the children 'cannot be trusted to behave', then only visit on high days and holidays, as a family group for an hour or two at a time and have a few excuses ready to leave as soon as anything does not seem right.

I would then stop doing any timeout etc, but continue to talk and listen with the 11 year old and the others, if they have something to say. Then work out what you want and how to manage things from there.

I think the brick wall analogy is spot on - if they did not change after you were 4 and what happened then, they are not going to change now.

[GoatsDoRoam]

They have insisted on doing a fair bit if childcare when my sis & I worked. I haven't always felt comfortable with this

You are their parent. You decide who spends time with them.

Stop handing your children over to these people: you KNOW that they facilitate the abuse of children. Just stop it. Use paid childcare and/or people who you TRUST with the wellbeing of children.

WHO CARES if your mum and dad don't like it and kick off: your children's welfare is far more important. Be their guardian.

[Vivacia]

My boundaries with them are skewed because I don't / can't stand up to them

I think you are right. Reread your posts. You are allowing these people to look after you children, when you know that they are unwilling to protect children from sexual abuse.