Relationship problem, is it me? What can I do?

[UnacceptableWidge]

I considered name-changing for this as I'm pretty sure my DH knows my username, but it isn't as if this problem is something he isn't aware of.
I don't want to write out a ten page OP so will try and be as brief as possible and get to the essence of what is wrong.

This is NOT a post about domestic violence, btw, nobody within our household is being physically abused. There is a problem though and I cannot decide that DH changes his behaviour so am after advice on how I deal with it, as I think I must have been approaching everything the wrong way for it to have become so bad I am considering us living separate lives.

My DH is miserable.

He moans, nags, criticizes and generally gives off a negative vibe which then effects the whole household.

He does not recognize this, states he is fine with no issues.

He has always been a bit of a glass half empty kind of person but the demands of life and a family have made him more of a 'glass is cracked and chipped, half empty with dirty water' kind of person. Any conversation about the way his attitude disrupts anyone else's life is met with "This is how I am, how I've always been. A person can't change who they are"

Recently we have had 2 incidents where his outlook has culminated in an aggressive outburst.
The first was with our DS(18). He has been going through a, hopefully quite common, phase of feeling that because he is an'adult' and has his own income, he no longer needs to be bound by the rules of the house. DS is not a morning person nor am I.
DH used to leave the house early but is now leaving later. Morning used to be relatively calm. As calm as they can be when getting 5 DC ready and out of house.
DHs way of 'helping' in the morning is to constantly nag. Nobody he tells to do anything is given more than 2 minutes to do it before they are told again and again and again Last week DS snapped at being told to put all his meat on his sandwich (bought with his own money) and the 2 of them went for each other. Myself and DS3 intervened and they both went off to work angry leaving the rest of the family stressed and upset.

The second was just last night. DH collected DD (8) and I from a concert.
In the heavy traffic an arsehole taxi driver almost hit our car while attempting to bully his way into line of traffic after noticing too late that his lane was closed. We both commented that he was out of order and I took his plate number and council number to report him.
Shortly after a car literally shot out of a junction to get into lane we were in at lights. We were moving very slowly and it was clear that this person was not about to wait to be let in, he barely looked at oncoming traffic either.
DHs response was to speed up then shout and swear while slamming on brakes.
I was seething as DD was screaming in the back seat and worried that the other driver (who had windows open and was shouting at DH) would come and tell us off. She was upset by a second incident within a fortnight where she has experienced the frustrations of her dad coming out in such an unusual and aggressive manner.

I am certain these two outbursts are a reflection of a deep unhappiness (not depression) combined with his reassurance, to himself, that his misery is an innate personality trait.
He does not chat, talk, unload to anyone that I am aware of about any stress he is under. Conversations with one of his oldest friends are hour long chats on phone about football with a 2 minute how's the family? great how's yours? tagged onto the end.
He chats regularly to his DF but would never discuss the family or anything particularly negative with him.

I have suggested counselling but feel he is reluctant to do this.

I cannot live with this anymore. We have had countless conversations about how unhappy I am but I don't think he realizes just how much his behaviour is dragging me down.
I do not want to come home from work.
I am exhausted trying to get him to see my point of view.
I am tired of walking away and not intervening when our DC are being berated for something minor, while they are doing ten thousand things to try and please him.
I find it very difficult not to say 'I told you so' now that the eldest 2 DS have stopped trying (I warned about 5 years ago that if they were constantly criticized, nagged and basically told they weren't good enough they would quit trying)

I fantasize about the life of a single parent...how can that be a fantasy for anyone!!!!

Has anyone else had this in their family? If so, how did you deal with it?
How can I encourage him to see what we see, address his problems and get back the DH I had years ago?
I know I am not a perfect human being btw, who is? I am quite sure I am no picnic to live with, yet I genuinely believe that I do not have any power here to change the environment within our household.
I am at a total dead end.

Sorry that was as short as I could make it within needing to dripfeed later. I hope somebody can offer me someone some wisdom and advice?

[Lweji]

What actually happened between your DH and your DS?

My exH was a half empty person and would get very aggressive with other people sometimes. Eventually he turned it on me, although there was always an aggressive atmosphere when we argued.

If he doesn't want to change, then you have to accept that he won't and you have to decide if you are going to put up with it and allow your children to be subjected to the constant criticism and aggression.

BTW, DV is not only physical acts on the person. It can take other forms of violence.

[Vivacia]

"This is how I am, how I've always been. A person can't change who they are"

My first thought is that you're not challenging who he is. You're challenging how he chooses to behave in front of the children.

[Vivacia]

So, options? I can only think of three at the moment.

• Carry on as you are.
  
• Separate.
  
• Ask him to seek counselling for his anger management or else you will need to think about separating.

[pinkfrocks]

It sounds awful but what you have to realise is that you cannot change anybody.
The other person will change ( or not) depending on how you behave.
If you really think about that, it's the solution to the problem.

Your Dh does seem to have an anger problem as well as being a misery guts. he is right and wrong- he can change his behaviour though not his personality. I bet he doesn't behave in this way at work. many people who take out their anger, frustration and negativity on their family are different people at work. They get away with it at home.

So you have to start behaving differently.
Maybe a talk - with a time allocated to it- is a start.
Make a list of all the incidents where his behaviour is unacceptable. Telling an 18 yr old how much meat to put in a sandwich is petty and about control, not the meat.

Maybe your DH is unhappy at work- so he takes it all out on you lot. Whatever the reasons for his grumpiness and anger, he needs to learn that no one will choose to live with him if he doesn't change.

You need to set clear boundaries of what you will accept from him. You need to tell him what they are. He then has the chance and choice of whether to behave like a selfish, immature arse, or be a supportive father and DH, by behaving better than this.

If he needs counselling then that is his decision. It might help, it might make him see he is subjecting everyone to his moods and anger- and might help him to find the cause of these. But you can't force him to go. You might make it a condition of whether you stay with him though.

[Quitelikely]

What a grump! They went for each other? . That's wrong on every level and over your dh telling your son how to eat his sarnie!

Unfortunately what your don has learnt is how to be like Dad so I'm not surprised they responded in the same way.

Honestly I wouldn't have my kids walking around on eggshells for anybody especially their own father!
It's only teaching them bad behaviour and I wouldn't he surprised if one or two of your dc end up with some of his character traits.

IMO you only get one life and this is no way to live it!

[Dirtybadger]

Hmm. It's possible he's depressed, stressed, would benefit from counselling. All the rest of it. But it also sounds like he's quite happy with his behaviour. It sort of...sounds like part of his personality? I hope I'm not being pessimistic but I would be quite surprised if he managed to make the sort of significant change that would be required for you and the kids to be happy/living on harmony. He might be able to adjust a few behaviours but his whole outlook seems draining and I'd find it very frustrating and intolerable. Is he the sort of person who seems to enjoy stress because it means you have an excuse for being a twat

[dolceandgabbanter]

I think losing your temper over someone else's dangerous driving isn't that abnormal tbh. Not sure why your dd was so upset by it, presumably she is old enough to understand that people get cross at situations and that he wasn't cross at her?

As to the incident with your DS, you say yourself he is testing boundaries...how much of the incident was his fault and how much your DHs?

Getting annoyed and shouting about stuff (so long as its not all day every day) doesn't mean people are depressed or need counselling, it's pretty normal unless you're the kind of person who lives in a work of sparkles and rainbows. Is he really that grumpy ALL the time, or are there other times when he is perfectly cheery and normal? If the former, that's obviously a problem but the latter not so much Id think.

[Dirtybadger]

dolce the dh didn't just avoid the car and make a fuss. He sped up then braked hard - I suppose to "prove a point" but if you were in a car and the driver went to ram another car on purpose (albeit with the intention of then stopping just before). He was driving dangerously too. Not okay.

Also fail to see how the incident with ds was ds's fault. It wasn't resolves by either party in a healthy way but dh has no business telling someone how to make a sandwich! Nothing would have happened if he wasn't being a nitpicker.

[UnacceptableWidge]

Thank you for the replies.
I cannot read properly just yet as I am out and about with the DC but at a glance I see I have given, perhaps, a false impression.

DH is not, usually, an aggressive person. The incident with DS was borne of frustration on both of their parts. DS, while passing the breakfast table after stomping away let out a big bear growl and DH raised the training shoe he was putting in his gym bag (apparently wasn't intending to do anything other than make the threatening gesture ) DS took a step forward and both raised voices. It was the beginning of fight but it was diffused before anything could happen. The situation is not a typical scenario at all. It was awful but I lead DH away and DS3 led his big brother away.

Last night was both shocking and a little deja vu moment from last week.

I am well aware of the various forms of DV. I do not believe that there is abuse going on within our family, physical, emotional or otherwise.

I DO believe that DH is very arrogant in his parenting and is not open to change, although he does make the right noises and approaches DC in a different way for a couple of days everytime this comes up.
Our different parenting styles are driving a huge wedge between us and I am seeking development of my own in the way I handle it.
I have started to wonder if I have got it wrong, he has it right and my parenting skills aren't up to scratch, but without meaning to sound pompous I don't think that is the case. I think I'm a pretty good mum.

Sorry I need to dash off. I will come back later and read properly. I do really value and appreciate the input you have given but want to look at it when I am able to go through it in detail.

Thank you

[UnacceptableWidge]

dolce I would guess she was so upset because it WAS unusual behaviour, it was much later than she is usually up, we had just had the euphoria of her first live concert and most importantly, it was just over a week since she was witness to the incident between her DH and DB.

Pretty bloody horrid for an 8 year old I would say.

Also, yes, he is (now anyway,wasn't a few years ago) grumpy, nagging and moaning probably 90% of the time unless he is tuned out watching tv!

[Vivacia]

An aggressive person is somebody who has been aggressive. Perhaps (most probably) they got aggressive because they got frustrated and didn't have a better way of handling the emotion. But they are still an aggressive person.

Last night was both shocking and a little deja vu moment from last week.

You are all defining what is acceptable. The aggression won't stop until somebody says, "this isn't acceptable and here's the consequence".

You start by saying, "There isn't domestic violence" at the start of the thread but then slowly reveal an incident of domestic violence. I'm guessing the second incident will also be revealed to be your husband hitting a child with a trainer.

[Vivacia]

I think that this can go one of two ways.

One, you stay in the frame of mind that made you start this thread in the first place and nip in the bud the growing violence in your home.

Two, you start to defend and minimise the growing violence in your home.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

"I am well aware of the various forms of DV. I do not believe that there is abuse going on within our family, physical, emotional or otherwise".

Bullies like your H are unhappy no matter what and take out all their rubbish on others. I would put money on it that he does not treat his work colleagues with anything like the same disrespect as you people get at home.

So what do you think is happening here; you people all seem to be on eggshells around this man all the time. And you would say the above as well because the alternative is too awful for you to both contemplate and acknowledge. Denial is not just a river in Egypt. You've already stated that you cannot live with this anymore and you fantasise about life as a single parent. That to me says the whole situation is very bad in your home.

What do you think your children are learning from the two of you about relationships here?. What do you get out of this now?.

If someone else wrote your posts what would you advise?.

[UnacceptableWidge]

I honestly hadn't thought of those two snapshots painting a picture of DV.

I knew it would be easy for posters to draw that conclusion, based on the two outbursts. They are, after all, the reasons that have led me to be posting here. I outlined there not being DV because I wanted to be clear that these two things are unusual and have led me to not wanting to be in my own home. Not out of fear, more out of ...I don't know the words, but when you know something needs to be done and you are so unsure about the right approach that you become almost frozen by indecision.

I think, although I may, possibly not be looking objectively enough, that the situation we are currently in could more accurately be described as a crucial crossroads. One where behaviour like that is allowed to continue by not being addressed or by not knowing how to. She that happen then yes, I can see how easily our household could be an unhealthy environment for everyone in it.

I found your posts to be very helpful Vivacia (although I am unsure if you're guess at 14.12 was that I haven't revealed exactly what happened or if it was a prediction of what you see to be future events)
As I said, I really hadn't thought of last week as being a DV situation.
A bloody awful situation, definitely. Absolutely not something that I am seeking to minimise in any way,shape or form.

Nobody is walking around on eggshells, although I see how my posts are painting that picture. DH would say that nobody does as he asks. They do, but he expects so much that he doesn't see it.

If, for example, DS1 makes his lunch while DS2 & DS3 are making breakfast, then they all leave and DH enters the kitchen. He won't see that the bread has been put away, the knife, the meat, the milk. That yesterday's rubbish from their bags has been put in the bin. That DS2 helped DD get a drink of juice. That DS3 made me a cup of coffee.
He'll see that someone had toast and there are crumbs all over the side and the butter was left out. then he'll go find someone to moan at...even if he has put the butter away himself. The kids roll their eyes in a "dad's whinging again" kind of way, but I find hearing it beyond tiresome.

That's the usual moaning, daily crap I referred to in OP.

Apologies, again, I can see my posts here are probably going to be very long and all over the place.

Trying to take in and digest everything above.

[pinkfrocks]

All families shout, argue, get annoyed and lose tempers- at least we did and so my friends with teens.

I don't think that is DV- it's family life.

OP- have you ever, in so many words- looked at your DH when he's being OCD in the kitchen and said' why don't you just shut the fuck up you miserable git',

Maybe not your style, and mine neither in RL but you get the drift.

Do you ever challenge him and tell him what a miserable tosser he is?

[BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted]

Whenever he's miserable, moaning, nagging or critical just put a name to the behaviour. Every single time. And then tell him that none of the other members of the family get away with saying "This is who I am, just get over it" so he won't either.

He sounds bloody awful. I wouldn't put up with this kind of joy-snuffing crap and I don't think you should either. Life's just too damned short.

[trackrBird]

Well he certainly comes across as a miserable, aggressive, controlling nag from these posts.

I think I must have been approaching everything the wrong way for it to have become so bad I am considering us living separate lives. I really think this overstates your role in this. He has decided that behaving like this is acceptable and can't be changed, and has said as much. And it looks as though you've tried many approaches to change things.

So this does leave you, as you said, somewhat at a crossroads.

Just one point. You suggest he wasn't always this bad. Did something happen at the same time his behaviour worsened, I wonder. Did he start taking medication - or experience some life change?

[UnacceptableWidge]

I am finding it hard to digest the posts about DV. Certainly what occurred with DS could be taken as DV. Maybe I am deluding myself by not seeing it that way. I see it as serious. Not to be tolerated. An indication of other problems. Inexcusable.
A massive over-reaction to a non event (on both of their parts but blame weighted heavily on the grown man's side)

pinkfrocks yes we have spoken about it before. A lot. A very, very lot of times.

I have never been able to get across how it feels to hear it, day in, day out.
He thinks it's perfectly fine and totally natural for a parent to nag. He doesn't often have positive things to say, unless they come with a but. Occasionally he does but not often.

He nags and moans, the DC continue to not be perfect and act as almost every other child I've ever met does, he nags and moans some more, I start to feel empty inside, we chat, he nods, explains that he likes things the way he likes things, tries a bit harder for a few days, forgets we spoke, he nags and moans, the DC continue...on and on it goes.

His expectations don't alter. His behaviour still gets the same results over and over and over. It's to a point now where if I mention anything it's become just another part of his routine. Nothing changes but I feel myself pulling away from him.

I am going to go and get some sleep and think about all the advice I have been given here as some of it has made me wonder if I'm not seeing what some of you are. I don't want to sound dismissive of the DV points that have been raised. I know it is sometimes impossible to see it when you are in it but those 2 incidents are very unusual in our home and I described them accurately. I haven't missed out any detail to minimise anything, I think they are both bloody awful enough exactly how they happened.

I am certain he is the main creator of his own stress.
I say main because we are a large family, of course there will be some stress. The DC and I add to his stress too, not saying that because I am excusing anything. Of course I, the DC, our jobs, finances create some stress. But I think he's starting to crumble under the weight of his self imposed stress and is raging at the lack of anyone else meeting his expectations combined with his misery.

He isn't depressed, unhappy yes. Deeply unhappy but not depressed. Yet.

I see him changing. For the worse. I don't know how to communicate with him as I feel we have got into a pattern of not communicating effectively. I am bordering on resentment and that bothers me too, because I'm not sure you get back from that place.

I really want to fix our problems but this has left me confused and unsure. He has reacted with anger and aggression twice in as many weeks. Out of character. Not acceptable and not given any impression that it is. Family life has not simply swung back into place. I think as I said before we are in a not brilliant place. This is certainly a crossroads for me.

I am working on what I can do and hoping he will do something more than the nothingness he has done before. But I am stuck. I feel lost.

Sorry my posts are huge! I just want to explain it properly and try to work things out as best I can.

If by any slim chance anyone is still reading then thank you. It is helpful simply getting it all written down in any case.

[UnacceptableWidge]

I'm not sure trackrbird
It's been this way for so long now I can't pinpoint anything.
I will try and think about that too.

I asked him earlier this evening to write down anything and everything that causes him stress. He did but has gone to bed and I'm so tired and stressed that I am planning to do the same before I look at it.

I only hope he has been honest.
Everything is apparently always ok, fine.
Sometimes, because he is very black and white, I think he feels that if he says 'that upset me' or 'I was hurt by that' that he thinks he is calling me evil or something.
During our many chats before about the whole nag thing, when he says he'll 'try' to nag less, there will be some 'I know I'm shit' type comment.

Any crap behaviour on my part doesn't make me anything less than fine, but anything he takes as a criticism is basically saying he is shit (how that translates into it being ok to constantly moan at DC I will probably never understand)

[Wrapdress]

It doesn't sound like DV to me. He sounds unhappy, stressed, burned out, tired, irritable, frustrated. Mostly unhappy. He may just be saying this is the way he is and that's just that because he's tired of trying to be something he's not. A good dad maybe? Is he hiding something? Does he need a vacation by himself?

To me it just seems like something is going on with him, he's internalizing and then all kinds of crummy things are coming out sideways with him.

[MrBuscuits]

Bin him. How dare he drives like this? You deserve so much better.

[Lweji]

When you say it's not DV because it's out of character, DV can be one instance. One event.
Every time he oversteps the mark, it will be out of character and the one time. Except it's not one time, but the FIRST time.

He's got worse, but I suspect he was always somewhat like this, but has settled on this behaviour and is letting it out.
He may be challenged, but not sufficiently (you're still there), and the challenge will only make him feel worse about himself and behave worse.
I'm not sure there's anything you can do. I had a very similar exH to what you describe.
He has to recognise that his behaviour and attitude is damaging the family and the relationship. He doesn't seem to be able or want to, and for me that is being abusive. Most people will try to improve their behaviour. He is saying take it or leave it, and I think that's exactly what you should do. Take it or leave him.

[pinkfrocks]

I have never been able to get across how it feels to hear it, day in, day out.

well this is the problem, isn't it?

Why can't you get it across? Are you afraid to? Are you being soft and gentle? Do you need to say it in different words? what is stopping you telling him? Afraid to rock the boat?

Nagging doesn't work. That's why it is water off a duck's back.

stop trying to analyse him or give a label to the behaviour.

Just say how you feel and tell him it's a deal breaker now and unless he changes you will consider ending the marriage. Plain, simple, ball in his court.

[Dinnaeknowshitfromclay]

You could leave, not because you don't love your DH but because you do love yourself. Life is short and he is not looking to change any day soon. That would be my reason for separating, so I can have a sunny future. You can only change yourself, not others. That is something he needs to learn but he won't so...you need to make some decisions or this is forever.

[dalekanium]

Perhaps, for you, mulling over wether or not this is DV is not helpful, maybe even a bit of a red herring. Sometimes to define and label helps. Sometimes the label itself muddies the waters.

So what's the problem and what can you do?

My heart aches for you. You sound so desperately unhappy. You only have one life. Do you really want to spend it like this?

Even if you don't want to separate I'd say it's getting to ultimatum time, shape up of ship out. As someone said earlier, you can't change him. But you can offer him a chance to change how he behaves around you.