Making a good marriage out of an abusive one? Please say it is possible

[CloudLining]

A friend has confided in me about her marriage. It came up because her husband is always off with his hobby at the weekend, leaving her and her DC (1yo). She has just returned to work and is desperate to spend time as a family.

While she was telling me about it she said she hated discussions with DH because 'she didn't want him to resent her' and she 'didn't want to make him feel guilty' as he has a temper and guilt can set it off. She said she thinks he needs anger management as DH shouts and throws stuff when he is angry. She told me it would be her fault if she provoked him and he did something or threw something with her DC in the room. She said her mum says never to push a discussion with a man too far as we are 'all animals' and something might happen that would then be her fault for pushing.

Obviously, I am concerned about her. Her confidence is very low and she said she gives as good as she gets but it is apparent that her DH scares her and she's avoiding conversation with him in case he blows. My DH and hers are close, I know her DH loves her. But I can also see he is a bully.

Does anyone have advice? I think he is controlling but I can't say that to her. She trusts me to want the best for their marriage not just for her and that's why she's confiding.

[justiceofthePeas]

She should speak to women's aid and probable leave him. He is unlikely to risk and she feels he a is a genuine threat to their child.
if he really loves her he will get help without her having to be there and in danger while he does it.
Otherwise this will likely get worse. She cannot change him and changing herself won't fix him either.

However, it won't be easy for you to say this to her...the best you can do is be there for her and try to make her see it is possible for her to leave him.

[justiceofthePeas]

he is unlikley to change

[cestlavielife]

tell her to go speak to a counsellor. on her own. someone who can help her see that she is not responsible for his behavior. only her own



so long as he thinks everything is her fault then no there is no hope.

but she needs to work on herself as she cannot change him.

buy her the book "why does he do that "and have her read it bit by bit the relevant chapters.

[justiceofthePeas]

Yy to reading Lundy Bancroft although if he is as volatile as he seems she may want to keep it at yours.

There us also a book "to be an anchor in the storm" that you may find helpful.

On no account should she go to counselling with him. (Read the links at the top of the support thread for those in emotionally abusive relationships for why).

You could try to get her to watch murdered by my boyfriend but it really is grim viewing and she may not be ready for such a harsh wake up call.

He will try to isolate her from you if he thinks you are trying to help. Just be there. Whenever you can. And keep reminding her this is not her fault. This is NOT her fault. Abusive people are abusive because they choose to be. (Her mother is wrong). You cannot make someone hurt you. They choose to do it. (Worse than that most abusers can switch it on and off like a tap. I bet when he throws things he throws her things not just any old thing either that or something that will smash. And if there was a knock at the door during one of his animal rages he would go back to mr nice like the flick of a switch.)

Also let her know, if she is worried she can log it with 101. They can log it but take no action i.e. not speak to him but have her address as a priority so that if she ever does really feel like she or dc is in immediate danger they will come as a priority.

And...if she does decide to leave (it often takes many attempts) then come back to MN or go to WA for escape plans. There is a lot that can be done, building up a fund, copying documents, moving essential items to a safe place. Leaving is the best thing but also very dangerous so a plan may be required.

[justiceofthePeas]

And sorry your friend is going through this.
Thank you for being a good friend

[justiceofthePeas]

Sorry multiple posts. To answer you OP.
No, I don't think it is possible. Sorry.

It is very difficult to admit you are in an abusive situation. Harder to convince yourself it is not your fault. This is a process and it takes time. (Reading Lundy really would help)
Getting an abuser to truly admit they are abusive and that it is no one's fault but their own is almost impossible.

[Hissy]

in a word.

no.

an abuser abuses.

only ever gets worse. never better.

when a person realises they are in an abusive relationship, the best thing they can do is end the relationship as quickly and safely as possible.

with or without support. ending the abuse can only be achieved by ending the relationship and minimising that person's access/control to the innocent lives around them.

the abuser can choose to change. any time they want to.

but that's the nub. they WANT to control, belittle, strike fear.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

If she's been brought up to believe that 'we are all animals' and that victims are to blame if they are attacked then the poor cow has no chance. If you're telling her that you know he loves her, you're really not helping. 'Love' is treating someone kindly.... not being abusive. If your DH is friends with someone who bullies his wife, then I question his judgement of character.

Tell her to look at it this way. If a stranger in the street acted in the same way as her partner, intimidating her and scaring her children, would she think it was her fault? Or would she get away and call the police?

Oldest trick in the book to say 'if you didn't make me so angry, I wouldn't have to abuse you'. So find the courage to tell her what you really think. He's a bully. She deserves better treatment. Her DCs deserve a better home. The victim is never at fault.

Womens Aid 0808 2000 247

[kaykayblue]

I would try and get her to question some things without pushing too hard.

Like ask her why would it be your fault if he throws something at you? Because you wanted to have an adult conversation about something that bothers you?

If she thinks that "we are all animals", does she think that her husband blows up in the same way at work when he is asked to do something he doesn't want?

In which case, why can he control himself perfectly well at times, but suddenly loses this capacity when annoyed with her?

I think your friend is nowhere near ready to accept that her husband is - at best - a complete arsehole - and at worst, physically abusive. I think some of the book recommendations might be a really good first step.

Also, no. Abusive relationships don't get better. Once a cycle of abuse starts it just goes round and round ad infinitum.

[CloudLining]

Thank you for your replies. I really appreciate it.

Even as a friend I find it hard to believe there is no hope for the marriage. DH has had a v poor role model in his father (stroppy temper that no one ever challenged) and although I think he understands there is 'professional behaviour' at home he has no concepts of restraining himself, or that frightening someone isn't an acceptable way to behave. I really want to believe that he could follow a path that would help him see he was wrong.

I am seeing my friend this afternoon and will ask her a bit more about her self-confidence and also just say I've been thinking about what she said about being responsible for her DH's reaction. I have to be so careful as I know she really really wants the marriage to work, and absolutely has not identified DH as abusive. She keeps telling me she would hate me to think badly of him.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Sometimes the guy in front of you is just a shit. So he had a nasty father? He had two choices... copy the same behaviour or swear never to treat anyone the same way.... and he made the wrong choice. So he's learned to be professional outside the home? Just means that he's a coward as well as a bully.... only picks on people who he sees as weak or who aren't going to get him sacked or make his life difficult.

As for following paths. Bullies only follow one path and that's the path that gets them what they want. They are all about themselves, use others for their own ends and simply don't care if they cause pain or upset.

Of course your friend would hate anyone to think badly of him... She spends her whole life treading on eggshells because she believes that, if he gets aggressive, it's her fault. She's terrified that someone will challenge him and it'll be her that gets the backlash behind closed doors. She doesn't want to think of him as abusive because she's got a lot riding on the marriage and she doesn't think she has other choices.

You may not know what to do for the best - and you're in a no-win situation here - but you really shouldn't collude with the delusion. As a friend, you are entitled to say that you don't agree with the way he treats her.

[CloudLining]

I don't think I'm colluding - if I thought taking a strong line with my friend would help I'd do it. But I think she'd just clam up and stop talking to me.

I suppose I'm hoping that they can change and that there might be a path out of this. Her mother (ever helpful) has told my friend not to try to change her DH and that's just how he is. Please let that not be true. Counselling? Something? Could help them both?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

With respect, you're colluding in the sense that you want to think the best of this man, buying the bad childhood excuses and wondering if counselling would help him. That's the trap a lot of abuse victims fall into... the 'he can't help it', 'he doesn't understand the effect of his behaviour, 'perhaps counselling will help' trap. I'm sure you don't want your friend to remain a victim?

Her mother is right in one very important respect... she cannot change this man. No-one can change another person's behaviour. Joint counselling is not recommended when there is bullying and abuse present. Individual counselling to help her stop blaming herself for his behaviour might be useful. The only 'path out of this' is for your friend to save herself and her DCs by a very firm rejection.

[kaykayblue]

Her mother sounds like a complete cunt by the way.

What sort of scum raises their daughter to believe that they are only worth however much someone wants to treat them?

I want to punch her. And her shitty husband.

And then buy your friend ALOT of mojitos.

[kaykayblue]

her = the mother, not your friend in the third line

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"DH shouts and throws stuff when he is angry."

Here's what one typical website has to say about this kind of behaviour

Progression of Domestic Violence
PHASE 1: Pre-battering violence: verbal abuse, hitting objects, throwing objects, breaking objects, and making threats; increased tension, anger, blaming and arguing. When abusers hit or break objects or make threats, almost 100% resort to battering

I don't know if you've ever been unlucky enough to be in an abusive relationship but I'm guessing, by the way you write, that you have had a relatively sheltered experience. For your own benefit you have to be fully aware of exactly what you're dealing with if you're going to get involved as confidante and advisor. Men like this are malevolent..... their victims may not be able to judge them properly but you have to see it for what it is.

The next think I suggest you read is this advice from Womens Aid entitled Things to Avoid Saying and Doing when dealing with a victim of abuse.

[CloudLining]

I'm taking in everything you're saying. Of course I want there to be a solution that doesn't involve breaking up this family. But most of all I want her to feel comfortable and safe in her relationship.

Domestic abuse isn't something I know much about but I can see this relationship isn't in full blown abuse though I acknowledge that it could get worse. By the same token, I want/hope/believe it is possible for it to get better. I suppose I was hoping for advice as to how that might happen.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

What do mean by 'full blown abuse'? It's tempting to think Domestic Violence is confined to stereotypical ideas of 'battered wives' but I'm afraid there are much more insidious and less obvious methods of abuse than the strictly physical.

Your friend is frightened. The person who is frightening her is her husband. She is being subjected to abuse. No equivocation.....

[trackrBird]

I think a lot of people want relationships like this to be recoverable, or for the abuser to get help and change into a decent person. But abuse is not simple, and recovery is extremely, vanishingly rare. It's a hard truth to face.

[CloudLining]

What I mean by full blown abuse is that I wasn't frightened that he was unpredictable and violent. But obviously the predictable 'threat' of shouting and throwing things if conversations get awkward is sufficient reason for me to be concerned.

If the choice for my friend was living in a marriage where she tiptoed around or the end of the marriage I know she'd choose the former.

[Lweji]

The only person who can change a marriage from abusive to a good one is the abuser.
He would need to recognise his own behaviour and would have to want to change.
If your friend leaves him, she is simply protecting herself and her children (if she has them) from his abuse.
The one breaking up the family is him. He has already done that. Living together does not a family make. Love and respect does.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

A lot of people in abusive relationships end up with no confidence, no friends, no self-esteem.... They think they're making a positive choice to 'make a go of it', 'take the rough with the smooth' and other clichés but they're actually being controlled by fear. Even when they dare to think in terms of getting out they place obstacles in their own path.... parental disapproval, 'the kids', money, the shame/failure of divorce.... and end up doing nothing because it's all too scary.

As a friend, I think you get a few opportunities to say to someone 'the way he treats you is wrong, you deserve much better and you have options'. You can't harp on about it, put pressure on or anything like that but, if asked a straight question, I think you have an obligation to be honest.

[EhricLovesTheBhrothers]

I'm afraid your optimism is misplaced. Maybe you should have a browse of the women's aid website to learn a bit more? I appreciate you need to be softly softly with her but that doesn't include giving her false messages about his capacity to change. That really is colluding.

[sus14]

I am pretty sure that if she tells you that he throws things etc - that that will be just the tip of the iceberg. I have told a friend about my relationship and I certainly have not told her very much as she was so shocked by the lesser stuff - I'm ashamed and embarrassed and it makes it so real and shocking to tell someone. So I would assume that it is much, much worse than he is letting on, and that she is terrified about uprooting her life- but she is beginning to realise she can't carry on like this.

My friend was 100% on I should leave, full on, she was great but I wasn't ready to hear it. In the end she got frustrated and we stopped contact, although we have met up again recently and I am hoping to see her this weekend :-) I think she may have felt she got too involved and stressed by it. From my point of view, I felt that she didn't understand what massive decision it was to leave him, with the effect on children etc. Easy to say, very hard to do.

The women's aid link cog sent you is spot on and I would follow it. Don't tell her what to do , but tell her his behaviour is not right. Another friend who perhaps had more influence on me told me that her husband would never, never speak to me the way mine had (and I told her very little). She needs to hear that this is not normal, and she needs to get her head around the fact it is bad for her children - this took me a long long time. And she needs to know that you will help her with practicalities - where to live, how to sort out money, that sort of thing, when she is ready. She will leave him, how long it takes is up to her, and I am not sure there is very much you can do about it apart from be there to listen and open to the concept that she may need to leave him.

[sus14]

worse than she is letting on , obvs