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"If a mother doesn't let the father see his children, then she shouldn't expect or ask for any money from him" says DH(106 Posts)
I suppose the thread could have gone in many places, AIBU, Feminism, Chat... but I've put it here because I think (sadly) people might have experience of what DH and I were talking about and so might be able to give some informed opinions.
For background, DH and I were watching Corrie, David and Kylie have split up and she won't let him see the children because she believes he could be a danger to them. David wants access to the joint bank account but Kylie thinks the money should be all for her and the kids and this is what prompted DH to say:
"If a mother doesn't let the father see his children, then she shouldn't expect or ask for any money from him"
I then said, what if the dad is an abuser, has committed DV against the mum for example, what then? DH replied that in that case if the dad was truly such a terrible person than the mum should 'have pride' and 'not WANT' to take any of his money as child support. I said well principles are all very well, but they won't pay for heating, or uniform, or food. Surely the best interests of the child must always be paramount which in that case means the dad should not be allowed to see his kids BUT he should be expected to pay child support.
DH loudly disagreed and TBH got quite narky about it! I would like to know whose way of thinking is right here?!
I would have no problem with that Fifi, provided that the partner who had gone out to work and was enabled to do so by the partner who stayed at home, was obliged to gradually financially compensate that partner who had lost out in terms of wage, career progression, market value, pension accrual etc., by staying at home.
That way, childcare would be valued. If men knew it was valued a) they would have more respect for the women who do it and b) they would start doing more of it themselves while they were actually married and c) the whole of society, including workplaces, would have to change in order to accommodate its status as essential and valuable and d) men and women's experience of parenting and work would be more similar, meaning that hopefully, relationship breakdown would be less likely in the first place.
basil, we had 50/50 before the split, in fact perhaps more like 60.40 in his favour and then he chose to take a lot of money and have no none of the childcare after. I accept I am unusual in that I earned a lot more than he did (we both worked full time) and our court order says I support the children. In fact one risk was he would get them after the divorce as he had done a bit more care although they were old enough to choose and he didn't want them at all so that never came to pass.
The problem with all my proposed remedies - dumping the washing on the man to do, forcing him to have them 50% of the time even if it were a week on week off or never changing Wed - Sat is that as you say the children suffer. If both parents abandoned the children as my children's father had done they would be in care (and I appreciate I am very lucky to earn enough to keep them all and to have paid out to their father).
As for men who set up a small business so they have no income (dead easy to do) or give up the high paid job to play at work in a vineyard in France to avoid paying a penny that is often done. I see it all the time. I've had men bragging about it on dates, as if they think it will make me think more of them! Even had the one who works for a very rich shipping family as an accountant/adviser regaling me about tax havens he used to avoid paying his wife (not exactly a good chat up line for someone left paying everything for her own children). I agree however that in principle if someone moves abroad, if you can find them and if they are paid under PAYE you may be able to use the courts to get paid abroad - not easy though.
Another trick some men use is give up work entirely and their new wife has a baby and she carries on working. Maintenance is based only on his income and not that of his new family whereas if the new wife gave up work and he supported her and the new baby he would still have to contribute to the first family.
[Thankfully however most men do want to see their children, are happy to do their washing and the dross stuff not just the playing around stuff and plenty also pay]
fifi, I may be being a bit thick, but surely if your DP has a court order stating his access days and duration, he can take his DD from her mother's care at the time and day decided and not bring her back until the end of his access visit? Does the mother turn up at your door to collect her after 45 mn?
Is the mother really doing it to be difficult to your DP and you? To me that says a lot more about the child's mother's state of mind than anything else if she does- she cannot bear to be without her dd for more than an hour. Which is certainly not healthy for the child. Does the mother have friends and hobbies of her own?
"LazyJaney, if you ever post in a way that shows you even see children in such disputes as human, rather than bitplayers in some man's psychodrama, then I may be interested in your opinions"
I think your biasses are showing, it's better to keep gender out of it IMO and look at the roles and who is being abusive, and who is being abused, clearly.
The kids are already involuntary bit players, collateral damage in the RPs psychodrama, irrespective of what the NRP does. The damage is Already being done. IMO the obvious solution is to recognise this as serious abuse and remove the kids, a short term pain for a long term gain.
Expecting saintly behaviour from NRP's when the RP is being an abusive shit is unreasonable - humans are just not that perfect. Kicking the NRP for not being perfect is just another form of victim blaming. It's a real testament that so many don't walk away IMO.
Damn it. I posted a massive rant and it disappeared!
DP hasn't got a court order yet, every time ex allows him contact she says they don't need to go to court, it's not fair in DD etc and he optimistically (foolishly) believes her. He's had a 7 month period if no contact, a 6 month and 4 month. The longer periods were as he was applying for legal aid back in the day. It takes so long as there's a period he tries to reason with her, then the wait for mediation. She had an appointment, then him, then together. She has missed said appointments dragging it out longer. She had freely admitted in front if the mediator she'd like it to go to court as it means he can't see DD for longer. Although he is currently allowed to see her, he'll be pushing for court in the new year. He doesn't want to do it now and help dude seeing her over Christmas.
They were never married. She's 24 and quit work at 20 when she realised she was pregnant and plans to be a SAHM from now on. DP didn't want it this way but obviously doesn't have a choice. Before that worked part time at co-op. DP is 28 and works at sainsburys. There's no pension rights/loss of career/earnings to take into consideration here.
I'm not sure if ex has problems being away from DD or still wants to punish DP. They split in April 2011. On one hand she makes snide comments to him every time to picks up or drops off DD. This week it was, you and fifi aren't as close as you think, you're not actually that stable... I've met her twice briefly when they were together and we have no mutual friends, I have no idea where she plucked that from! When DP had my DS's car seat in, she said DD isn't sitting where that cunt has been sat. I hate to think of the prison sentence I'd serve if I'd been there for that one....
On the other hand she doesn't have many friends. DP said she never wanted to go out when they were together, she wanted to be with him 24/7 and he wasn't allowed out either. If he did go play football with his mates she'd accuse him if having an affair with one of the other men, he went to see his mum and came back to the washing machine had shredded his favourite jumper... We were friends and colleagues at the time so it's not post break up bull shit. This attention is now on DD. She says DD is her best friend....
Help dude = jeopardise
Why do are phones want us to look stupid?
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