First steps towards healing - dealing with abusive and toxic behaviour

[Glenshee]

My DB and SIL have years of unhealthy relationship behind them. Yesterday, yet again it came to a head, with flying objects, shouting, screaming, physical and verbal abuse :( Two children, aged 10 and 2, are in utter shock, although not for the first time. Parents are in shock too, but unable to act on it in a constructive way.

Generally, DB flatly refuses to separate or divorce. He's happy

SIL wants out, but is financially dependent, and although unhappy, doesn't have the strength to act on it. She tried but keeps buying his promises that things will improve. I support her the best way I can but it is difficult because she is not actually doing anything to change the situation.

I talked to her yesterday. Gave her all the usual advise - relationship counseling, making steps towards financial independence. She also knows she and the kids can come and stay at ours any time.

I will talk to DB later today. What do I say? How do I shake him up into dealing with it? Help me to put this into words. This is so far beyond normality, and has such a long history, that I am lost for words.

Thank you...

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Tell him you'll be calling the police and SS?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Actually, forget the question mark there. Call the police and SS. If you've got DCs traumatised by the abusive behaviour of their parent (s) then you have a duty of care to get the authorities involved. Is your DB the aggressor?

[Glenshee]

Cogito, thanks. Wise words, as always.
I wasn't witnessing any of it.
Do you think I should report it anyway?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

How do you know about the flying objects etc?

[Glenshee]

"Is your DB the aggressor?" - tricky one.

They're so lost in their tracks that they both display abusive behaviours, tbh. But I have more sympathy towards SIL because she's looking after the children, and is protecting them, as much as she can. DB doesn't seem to care much that children are emotionally hurt by all this.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Who told you about the flying objects and physical abuse?

[Glenshee]

SIL

[Glenshee]

It is very believable, given their history, but it is what it is - her side of the story, and not something I witnessed. Which is why I'll be talking to DB today.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

And is she a trustworthy person? Do you think she's telling the truth?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

If your DB is abusive, I doubt he'll admit it to you. There would be merit in calling the 101 non-emergency police number and asking their advice. It's the DCs that need protecting here.... it's not siding with SIL against DB or vice versa.

[Glenshee]

Yes I think she's telling the truth but I also understand that she might have a twisted perception of what's happening as it's all very emotional, intense and stressful.

[Glenshee]

Bump for any other opinions.

[Glenshee]

Bump for any other opinions.

[EldritchCleavage]

SS report I think. Even if you aren't directly a witness, if you think it is credible or likely that there was shouting, screaming, physical and verbal abuse in front of the children then alert SS to that and tell them it is an on-going situation.

I really think it would not be a good idea to leave the children in the middle of this, without intervention, for years and years because the parents are stuck. It doesn't matter so much which parent is most to blame, only that the dynamic between them is awful a significant percentage of the time. And if their dynamic is that messed up, then isn't it possible the children are pawns in this game or even being (at least verbally) abused as well?

[MillyRules]

Hi, does he hurt her physically, does she hurt him?

[Glenshee]

MillyRules, not on purpose, but strictly speaking - yes :(
I won't go into the details here.

[Glenshee]

EldritchCleavage, thanks

[Glenshee]

[dreading the conversation but it has to be done]

[MillyRules]

I don't know......unless you are actually there and witness all this then you only have her side and how she perceives her world. If they are both accidentally violent with each other then they are both culpable. Why has she involved you in this. Are you sure that underneath it all, they are on some level happy with their relationship. Did you see the kids actually upset. From what you have said I would tread carefully before doing anything. Is she by any chance a bit of a drama queen or do you genuinely think that your brother is all to blame?

[Glenshee]

No I don't think my brother is all to blame. I just think it's deeply traumatic for the kids, and they have responsibility for dealing with it. Both of them.

[BillyBanter]

When you say you are going to talk to your brother are you going to ask him what happened the other night or tell him it's not on and things have to change?

Has he said that things get shouty and physical or does he deny anything happens? I'm just thinking that if you are not witnessing things personally it might be better to be able to say to SS that he told you himself that he threw stuff etc. but doesn't see it as a problem whereas your SIL does recognise the problem but feels too weak to act as you think that the best outcome is for them to split up and her have the kids and support.

It might be that SS both force her hand and support her to split from him.

[Glenshee]

BillyBanter - both really. Ask what happened but also say that things can't continue like this (based on previous events if he denies this one).

[MillyRules]

So were you actually there yesterday Glenshea when this happened?
If not you only have your sister in laws word for it. Why have you got so involved in their life if you don't mind me asking. If you weren't actually there when this row happened and you haven't seen the children being in a emotionally shocked state, how can you be sure that this was the case. I just think calling the social services when you only have your sister in laws word on this is not the right thing to do. Talk to them together first and explain how you feel and maybe some conclusion could be made.

[Glenshee]

I talked to them both. DB refuses to discuss what happened yesterday, point blank. He says it's been the same for many years (probably true), and at this stage he doesn't know what to do to change it. He said he won't go to counseling because 'it's bad enough to not be shared with anyone outside the family'.

I stressed his responsibilities over children and that seemed to have sinked in. I think.

Sigh.

:(

[Glenshee]

MillyRules, no I wasn't there when it happened and only have SIL's word for it. I didn't make it very clear in my OP, sorry. I didn't witness children being shocked but in this situation, as it was described to me by SIL in some detail, any living thing would be shit scared for sure. Whether this is what actually happened - you are right - depends on whether SIL's side of the story isn't manipulated / clouded by her emotions etc.

I don't have the other side of the story, I'm afraid.

SIL turned to me for emotional support, which is why I got involved. You seem to be suggesting that I have overstepped the mark in terms of involvement - can you elaborate on that? If there were no children involved, I would certainly leave it up to them to decide what they want to do with their lives (even though I feel very sad for my DB), but because of the children I feel like I have a moral obligation to stand up for the children if that's what's needed.