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Does anyone else feel dismayed by what some people will tolerate in their relationships?

(160 Posts)
Ledkr Sat 11-May-13 08:51:29

Thread about many threads but I sometimes worry that I'm just am old battle axe because when I read some if the stuff on here I'm just shocked at what some people put up with.
I can go early say that if dh went on a dating website, called me names, left me short of money or refused to help with his house or children he'd be out if my life.
Not being smug at all I was in a very subdivide relationship and my exh cheated but both times I got rid.
I'm in my forties so am sad to think that some young women are being raised to tolerate this. Shouldn't it be different now that its easier to go it alone?
Such a pity.

OhLori Sun 12-May-13 13:47:14

I believe things are currently getting worse in terms of the media and the way women are treated in it, the lack of recognition of the job done by single mothers ... the myth that women need to be in a relationship, should be scared of 'ageing' and of being alone and so on Seashell said.

Interestingly, my mother said to me the other day she thought women were being treated worse now by men (and society?) than anytime she could remember.

Charbon Sun 12-May-13 13:28:36

I don't think Ledkr was being smug at all, nor do I think posts pointing out that women really don't have to have relationships with men who do little domestic work and make jibes about their weight, are smug either. The worst posts IMO are those from people who are putting up with those behaviours in their relationships and which urge other women to suck it up because they do. Or those that reinforce the cultural default for women to keep families together, regardless of how they are personally treated by their partners.

Far from being smug about having a healthy relationship after an abusive one, I think most women are trying to say 'you can have better than this, there are good, positive relationships to be had.'

simplesusan Sun 12-May-13 11:20:01

Some very interesting posts.

I do agree that some (women mainly) are selfish and use their children as an excuse.
I don't want to hurt the kids by leaving my abusive, adulterous, demeaning husband is often really, I am prepared to put up with all this so as to have more money and a good lifestyle. Fuck the fact that it is better to set my children a good example, I want the lifestyle so will whore myself and kids to get it.

In many ways my mil was like this and I have zero respect for her after seeing what it has done to her children.
She was prepared to put up with abuse. She was prepared to let my dh be with a violent, abusive father.
the bottom line was that it was all favourable than being , God forbid, a single mother.
She is so demeaning towards "unmarried mothers," yet her son is a whore who has fathered several children to different mothers, but of course that is different because he is male.

I regularly pull her up when she is citing the usual "It's the woman's vault" shit.

GiveMeSomeSpace Sun 12-May-13 09:51:30

Fantastic post fellatio

One of the hardest things iswhen that grey area is moving - of that boundary of what is and what is not tolerable moves with the ebb and flow (or maybe just ebb) of a relationship. That perspective is then blurred and sometimes lost so at one extreme one can get get caught up in the petty things and at the other extreme, one can find themselves putting up with horryfing situations.

Ledkr Sun 12-May-13 09:39:05

Also after my two experiences of men I really am far from smug and expect my lovely dh to fuck up at anytime, which is hard for me and even more for him.
Let's hope its not a self fulfilling prophecy hmm

Ledkr Sun 12-May-13 09:36:02

Thanks for a good response fellatio I do see your point now.
Obviously didn't mean to be smug it was more if a thoughts out loud thing after if read yet another thread.
At risk of over disclosing though I did end up with someone for 18 yrs who was amazing and a great dad. He ended up cheating just after I'd had cancer and our dd was only 8 months so I do know about making a difficult decision to go it alone and it is truly terrifying.
So yes I'm sorry if I came across as smug as I honestly didn't mean to
I guess on mn you get to hear the very extremes of poor treatment and it shocks me.
I think in my two examples it was pretty cut and dry.
I'm in danger-I need to leave.
He's cheated-he needs to bugger off.
The simmering undercurrent of control and entitlement to do what you like regardless of your partners feelings, would be less easy I accept.

MorrisZapp Sun 12-May-13 09:10:08

Fellatio, great post. I see your point. I think there's a danger on here of 'telling off' younger or apparently weaker women for putting up with crap, because us clever big girls don't do that any more. I for one have put up with plenty in my youth, I'm older now and wouldn't put up with it.

But I don't always like some of the advice on here which can sound as if they are saying 'I've found a wonderful man now, so you're an idiot if you haven't too'. I've probably done it myself tbh but reading it back, sometimes it can come across as smug rather than supportive or helpful.

MatureUniStudent Sun 12-May-13 08:48:00

I think the problem of how men think they are entitled to behave to their partners must stem from how they learn to be men. Even if their household is kind, respectful once they mix with other boys at school, they are called weak, geeks etc if the do not make the other boys laugh by being mean or making horrid jokes at the expense of another person. My son plays a sport and each weekend I sit on the sidelines listening to the men. They all parry for the biggest laugh and it is always at another persons expense. Women don't naturally behave in that way, looking to be the top dog by running another person into the ground.

I think this is the fundamental problem, how boys, men interact. My son knows that we respect each other at home, but to "fit in" or at least keep his head under the radar so HE isn't picked on, he (whilst not actively taking part) has to laugh and agree so it isn't him picked on.

If we could break how men act with each other, they may well return back to those sweet and charming children they were before the world got hold of them.

BigBlockSingsong Sun 12-May-13 08:10:27

Charbon makes a great point, some people enjoy the drama forgetting children are absorbing their environment like a sponge.

One of my relatives works with CP cases and the mothers often find after leaving/recovery etc is that the children are angry at them for not protecting them as well as the abuser.

The comment about one parent making themselves out as the 'victim' and bring you into it to reinforce how badly done to they are, both of mine do this.its headdoing' I'm quite intolerant now, I just think;

you chose to marry,
you chose to have kids,
you chose to mistreat,
you chose to argue in front of the kids,
you chose to whinge but do nothing about,
you chose to keep/stay
you then chose to leave....you are not a victim, the children are victims.

TheRealFellatio Sun 12-May-13 07:30:27

Apologies Ledkr I missed your post explaining about the hair pulling and threats. However, my point still stands - he was behaving in a way that was unacceptable; certainly emotionally abusive and bordering on becoming physically abusive, and he clearly enjoyed making you frightened. And yet...you had a second child with him.

I don't have a bee in my bonnet at all - I've only made a couple of short posts on this thread. I realise that with the benefit of 27 years worth of hindsight you can are able to speak as a woman who takes no shit now, but you've had to go through a lot to arrive at this point. And being attacked and raped will kind of polarise your position pretty clearly I imagine.

Clearly there was a here was a point where you were not that strong woman. The point were you didn't walk out with your DS1 under your arm the very first time his father pulled your hair and threatened you.

For other women, the level of ill-treatment may be very minor in comparison, and as someone else pointed out, the fear of being alone is a very big deal. Most women are not prepared to walk out on a home and a marriage and all that that represents for them, because their H is crap at helping with the washing up, or makes unpleasant jibes about the size of their thighs, or had a one night stand once. They may hate it, but they look at everything in the round and they choose not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And that is their prerogative, all the while they are not in fear of their lives or their sanity.

I thought your OP did come across as a little smug to be honest. You've found a relationship where you feel like a true equal, and that's great, but if your ex hadn't half killed you and forced you to leave for fear of your life, then perhaps you'd still be with him, and still be forever that vulnerable 16 year old in your head, putting up with the threats and the hairpulling as an occasional way of life, because, you know - 'it's just the way he is sometimes, but mostly he is lovely, and he's a great dad.' and all that other stuff we hear all the time on here.

We all have to decide what we will and and will not tolerate and how much is too much, in our own time and in our own way. Personally if I had a man who was fabulous in every possible way except that he refused to do any housework whatsoever, then sure, I might grumble on MN about it from time to time, but I'd not be in any hurry to get him out of my life. In the grand scheme of things I think I'd be prepared to tolerate it.

I think sometimes when people have been through serious, serious shit with men they become so evangelical about standing up for themselves that they lose the plot a little bit about how other people manage to tick along nicely with flawed, annoying, but basically decent, and good enough partners, rather than risk being alone.

lolaflores Sat 11-May-13 23:08:10

Ex drug users make the best counsellers?
Beg to differ
Seen several of them lose their jobs and behave in deeply unprofessional ways that have also led to jeopordy for their clients.
Not a given.
Ever

Lweji Sat 11-May-13 22:52:20

Regarding children, it's curious that people feel that they are the ones who break up the family because of something that their partner did.
So, they stay because they feel responsible for the unity of the family.
When, in fact, it's their partner who has broken (usually) their vows.

Lweji Sat 11-May-13 22:49:48

Lweji most ex-users I know would and do express dismay that kids are still using drugs.

My point still stands:

"Sadly, each person starts from zero.
Our own experiences count for nothing, and even improvements in society, count for little."

People who express dismay that the younger generation is "still" putting up with X or using Y, understand very little about how growing up works.
What transpires from quite a few posters here, including the OP is that we learnt from experience.
Sadly some have lower standards and self esteem than others, or just happened to have met a clever, devious manipulator.

And I don't think anyone is disputing that those who went through the issues (DV, drugs, whatever) make the best counsellors or advisers.

SmileyEyez Sat 11-May-13 22:24:17

Thank you I appreciate that, though this thread is about why people tolerate their situations,just wanted to put m side xx

I do think children torn between spending time with their parent seperately is an issue,,,,,,but that's another thread smile

Charbon Sat 11-May-13 22:11:57

Cross posted.

Your kids' lives don't have to be 'ruined' if the relationship ends. But the responsibility for their lives being disrupted isn't yours to take. That's their father's domain. I'd really urge you not to take responsibility for your husband's behaviour or your inability to put up with it. Your instincts to get away from this relationship are absolutely sound and no child wants their parents to martyr themselves on their behalf. They'd rather their parents were happy, actually.

SmileyEyez Sat 11-May-13 22:11:05

I agree, just putting another case across.

My kids well fair is more important than my own and separating my kids from their dad isn't something I feel justified to do but something I have to do for myself, hence feeling selfish , but I digress from this thread ;)

Charbon Sat 11-May-13 22:06:42

The other thing to think about Smiley is that people often say they are staying in unhappy relationships 'because of the children' but that is rarely the whole picture. People stay in relationships because of their own self-interests as well - and that needs to be acknowledged. I agree with what perfect storm said upthread. Some parents put their need for a relationship or the gains they accrue from it before their children's rights to have a safe and peaceful existence. This is a general point by the way and is not directed at your personal circumstances, having seen your thread. It's an observation I've made on several threads though where that sort of selfishness is going unchallenged, but it's an unpopular view sometimes.

SmileyEyez Sat 11-May-13 22:05:01

I understand that completely Charbon,

But as the parent who has been poo,d on so to speak , I have to ruin my kids lives because of something their dad did,

That's why people tolerate situations in their relationship, their children , dammed if we stay, dammed if we leave!

My kids are my life, I brought them into this world, I chose to bring them into this world.

What ever their dad does should never effect their life, but it does, and that breaks my heart, more than his fathers affairs!

It's boat called DIGNITY!smile night xx

Darkesteyes Sat 11-May-13 22:02:50

lola i would describe Italian men in the same way you have described Irish ones. i have experience of the Italian patriarchy because i have one Italian parent. Entitled and very mysogynistic culture.

Charbon Sat 11-May-13 21:58:08

You see I think this myth about children being 'none the wiser' needs exposing for all it's worth. Just like the one about separated parents not being able to provide a 'real family'.

Children pick up on far more than adults think they do and will often thrive in atmospheres that are suddenly devoid of marital tension. They are also able to adapt to all sorts of family contexts as long as they feel safe, loved and there is calm and peace in their homes.

SmileyEyez Sat 11-May-13 21:51:54

I don't want my kids to side, but how do I explained why I have destroyed their family life to a one parent family( no disrespect to one parent families) ;) ;)

SmileyEyez Sat 11-May-13 21:50:19

That is one of my dilemmas, taking my kids away from their father, who has repeatedly been unfaithful,

By leaving my husband and taking the kids with me, I am giving them a life without a real family!

That is why we put up with things that as a single person we would NEVER let any one treat us without respect.

But for the family, we sit quietly on what we know of the other parent .

We put on a smile and keep things going, no one the wiser.

Then we break! ;)

Charbon Sat 11-May-13 20:37:53

Some very interesting posts to absorb but for now wanted to come back to arthritic's accusation of 'victim-blaming'. I was referencing some very specific behaviours that I've observed happening in abusive relationships, which frankly are no less excusable especially when children suffer the fall-out. I mentioned three - having affairs, points-scoring wars of attrition in front of children, friends and family - and trying to get children to side with one parent over another. These behaviours are damaging and shouldn't be condoned in my view. If you think that is 'victim-blaming' I can live with that, but there's no way I can condone children living in those atmospheres and so yes, I blame both parents very much for that and make no apology for it.

Ledkr Sat 11-May-13 20:24:11

Ex users make some of the best drug workers too.
To be fair though when I posted it really wasn't about dv. It was on response to so many threads I read on here and of rl friends experiences.
Men (predominantly) who openly go on dating/sex sites, don't help with children or house, spend weeks away on lads holidays, call their do names, have shed loads if money to themselves and afford their wives a meagre allowance. Of course all these things can be cited as abuse however I wasn't talking about sustained dv which of course is not easy to end due to many deciding factors.
I'm sad that I had to justify this as I said I was "dismayed" not annoyed or angry or that I thought they were weak or even said they should leave.
I merely felt saddened to see what some people will actually tolerate without taking action even if that action is simply not putting up with it.
I'm sure someone will come along and pick to peices what I have said so I shall jolly off to watch the voice now and leave it there.
Night all.

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