Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide, which can point you to expert advice and support.

I think I'm going to tell DH its over tomorrow morning

(81 Posts)
BetsyBoob Mon 22-Apr-13 03:06:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dontmeanto Mon 22-Apr-13 03:40:10

Do you have friends there?

Ouchmyhead Mon 22-Apr-13 03:41:59

You're not taking anything away from your DD, he's done that. And who knows, by leaving him it may give him the opportunity to sort himself out, get help, and by the time your DD is old enough to remember he will be a good Dad to her, the Dad she needs and he clearly isn't at the moment.

BetsyBoob Mon 22-Apr-13 03:44:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BetsyBoob Mon 22-Apr-13 03:47:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BetsyBoob Mon 22-Apr-13 03:48:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SignoraStronza Mon 22-Apr-13 05:15:23

If you live in the EU then the Hague conventions relating to removal of a child from its place of habitual residence will apply. Technically speaking, you shouldn't do it without going through the court process in your current country of residence.

Practically speaking, just do it. Make sure you file a police complaint before you go to ensure that they have something on record. I lived in quite an unenlightened eu country in terms of the general attitude towards women and was pleasantly surprised that they took it seriously. Similar to you, objects thrown in same room as child etc. The police officer even asked me why I didn't just go!

What could happen is that, once in the UK, the police could appear on your doorstep, confiscate passports and force you to return to that country with your child to initiate court proceedings there. It depends how likely that would be - your ex would get legal aid but if anything like mine, wouldn't look into it/deal with the 'shame' and, presumably consider supporting you at another address while all this goes through (I'd planned to head for the local women's refuge in the unlikely event that it happened).

I lay low for a year, took dc to every surestart activity going in order to get her speaking English (at 2.5), then registered her at pre-school, doctors etc in order to establish habitual residence in the UK. It was still a stressful year and quite a balancing act in terms of allowing contact (he didn't bother for first 3 months) and the worry that he'd try to force my return.

Document every single incidence of his shitty behaviour, with detail of the effect on your dc. Start to gather all your documents (don't forget her birth certificate like I did) and try to get someone on side for a lift to the airport and practical storage of your belongings.

Good luck. Believe me, it will only worsen and the older your dc gets, the more established her residence there will become.

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Mon 22-Apr-13 05:16:30

He sounds awful, and you're absolutely better off without him, regardless.

But yes, definitely look into your rights in terms of where you can take your DD with and without his consent.

I'm reminded of an awfully sad thread on here (earlier this year?) posted by a British woman who moved to Australia to be closer to her DH's family. She was really homesick and missed the UK, her 'D'H ended up having an affair and leaving her for the OW. She was trapped in Australia as she could not take the children without his consent, which he did not grant.

It's the Hague Convention which you would need to seek advice on. Just make sure you're fully informed.

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Mon 22-Apr-13 05:18:33

Great advice from SignorStronza - very true that this will become more problematic the longer you leave it.

NotTreadingGrapes Mon 22-Apr-13 06:12:29

Love your name SignoraStronza!

OP- do not under any circumstances leave the country without his permission. That's the crucial thing. You can, and probably would, be arrested for kidnapping. (airports Europe-wide are already bringing in slowly but surely the need for a lone parent travelling with a minor to carry notarised letters of consent, so you might not even get beyond the departure lounge It would in that case, not even be instigated by your partner, airport staff/immigration staff are being trained to check single parents and children v closely.) I don't want to sound scaremongery, but there are lots of threads on here where posters abroad are advised to pick the children up and go home, and unfortunately you can't legally do that.

You have not failed your child. You will fail her if you stay with this immature pisshead. From your posts I glean he works in a bar/nightclub/restaurant and yes, that will mean that money is tight, especially if you are in one of the EU countries which is in recession.

You need to quietly and calmly get legal advice as soon as possible and make your plans. A friend of mine had to stay in the country she was resident in for a further year or so, until her case came to court, then, and only then, with the permission of the courts could she take her children to live in the UK.

SignoraStronza Mon 22-Apr-13 06:13:30

Also, have you considered coming over for a 'holiday' and just stringing it out? I left ex while he was working in another party of the country. Had given him ultimatum after ultimatum but he chose not to believe we'd go and stay gone. Not that he had any sort of relationship with dc. Never changed a nappy, bathed her -nothing! Very occasionally took her for a stroll to show her off, returning at slightest hint of crying or whiffy nappy, but was very telling that he asked me to accompany on any subsequent visits, as he just didn't have a clue.

In the end, I worked the morning, then my lovely boss took me to pick up my three enormous bags (BA charged a fixed fee for every additional bag) and pram, collect dc from nursery and drive us to the airport!

On a more serious note, his behaviour towards you, where sober or drunk, stressed or not, is domestic abuse. He knows exactly what he's doing. When I met the hv here for the first time, it really shocked me when I was told that had it happened in the UK, dc would have been on the 'at risk' register and closely monitored by social services. Just witnessing these sorts of tantrums from him (I.e being in the same room) is classed as abuse to the child, let alone what he inflicts upon you. DC was a very angry toddler when I came back and, without going into too much detail, it was only after removing her from the situation that I realised how abnormal her behaviour was. It took ages and a lot of love and persistance to get her on an even keel and I'll always regret not leaving sooner.

I don't mean to be alarmist or prescriptive. My ex never 'beat me up' or hospitalised me, but the strops, tantrums (he'd scream and shout when the baby woke at night), throwing things, breaking (my/household) things, door slamming, name calling, head banging, crazy driving, jabbing, shoving, barging, spitting, fight picking (esp when I was on the sofa bf), storming off, silent treatment, kicking off in public etc etc had a terrible, cumulative effect
on children if witnessed. If you feel like you're trading on eggshells, you may not do all of the singing and silliness that little ones need, for example. Your guard will be up, anticipating the next kick off. I'll admit that at times I was just going through the motions.

Was he drunk when you asked him to look after dc for an hour to give you some free time? His stropping is a form of control - believe me, the alcohol/work stress is just an excuse.

Please, please look after yourself and dc. You are both very vulnerable atm and the less 'heads up' you give him about your plans the better.

Good luck.

NotTreadingGrapes Mon 22-Apr-13 06:16:51

Webchat link about child abduction by a parent.

www.mumsnet.com/qanda/rosie-dyas

mathanxiety Mon 22-Apr-13 06:17:46

Just pack and then leave exactly as SignorStronza advises. Get somewhere safe. Make a plan and just do it. You need to report all incidents of domestic violence. This includes threats.

Staying and trying to make him see sense is a waste of time and you risk injury too.

Forget about your public image. Everyone who lives near you has heard the fights and has seen him drunk, believe me.

Feelslikea1sttimer Mon 22-Apr-13 06:26:41

Hey, sorry I felt like I needed to comment... I was in a very similar (identical bar the different country part) I stayed for the sake of my children...

My word, I wish I'd had a forum 15 years ago and someone saying 'leave him' I eventually left when my children were 8&9 and it was the best thing I ever did, don't get me wrong, it's been tough but now 5 years on, I'm pg to a wonderful man and we all have a lovely life!

I think all I wanted to say is, sadly they don't change and in my opinion, it only gets worse, I would leave now if you can as it's much better for your little girl as she won't remember the arguing (I still feel guilty that my kids told me AFTER we left how sad it mad them to hear us arguing in the night) sad

Good luck and whatever you do, you know it is in your daughters best interest which means its the 'right thing to do'
Xxxx

Lizzabadger Mon 22-Apr-13 06:26:51

Listen to SignoraStronza.

mathanxiety Mon 22-Apr-13 06:26:52

WRT leaving the country -- get legal advice and bide your time until you can do it legally.

I would be very reluctant to lean on the PILs in the interim. He would know where you are and he would put on a great show of love and sobriety, blah blah, and the PILS would then press you to return to 'marital bliss'. Go to your friends or seek the help of women's aid type organisations.

You need to draw a line under this relationship as it stands right now. Forget the whys and the wherefores of how it all started and how it all went wrong. Forget trying to salvage it. If ten years down the road he is sober and has grown up then you can always reconsider. But for now you are not safe and your baby is being abused too. So safety is your number one goal with a long term plan for a separate life as the top item no your list.

Find somewhere safe to go while you work towards this goal, even if it's just a room in someone's house or digs your friends can help you secure..

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Mon 22-Apr-13 06:29:17

i hope everything went safely for you.

The important thing to remember when someone is aggressive when drunk is that they are an aggressive person

Alcohol does not change who you are. It lowers inhibitions. So your husband, at the core of him, is an aggressive bully who would like to shout and scream and threaten you. But he daren't yet do it while sober. When he is drunk, his inhibitions lower, he loses fear of consequence and you see him come out.

In time, he may show himself when sober, if he comes to feel that you will take it.

I sincerely hope that you took that baby and left the home, or that you asked him to leave, and that you are ok.

SignoraStronza Mon 22-Apr-13 06:31:33

Sorry TreadingGrapes - am not disagreeing with you about the correct legal route.

I know what I should have done, it was just that in reality it was not possible for me. My earnings would have covered nursery fees and perhaps rent of a studio flat, leaving nothing for bills and food - let alone legal fees. I just made a conscious decision to flee and deal with any potential fall out if and when it occurred.

I did get questioned at the airport and still do sometimes, even though things are now legally established (applied for a formal residence and contact order after a year of being back in UK) but always supplied a copy of her birth certificate and said we were visiting relatives.

I know that 'kidnapping' dc was wrong, but weighed up all the options and for me, it was the only way. I was prepared to take the risk.Had initially wanted to stay, in my job, in the same town, but he made it clear he would never give any financial support if I left and would have made life thoroughly unpleasant.

Betsy yes even in the EU especially so restrictions will apply especially as you are married and as EU there be easier to enforce

which country are you in

BetsyBoob Mon 22-Apr-13 06:35:58

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Branleuse Mon 22-Apr-13 06:37:25

You should go. Take the baby.

If you move to be nearer your family, then youd have reason to go in the eyes of the law, especially if you could prove it would be in her best interests and benefical to her and you would have a better quality of life, especially if youre fleeing violence from him

BetsyBoob Mon 22-Apr-13 06:40:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dontmeanto Mon 22-Apr-13 06:45:47

The hague convention rules also applied to my son and me, and due to the stress of court proceedings (being a doormat when it came to xh's bullying) I chose to withdraw my request for "application to leave the jurisdiction."

I stayed, with great difficulty and struggle, in the UK as a 25 year old lone parent with no family to help me. Luckily, I had some good friends and a local church donated me lots of furniture and slowly but surely I found my way.

Five years later I am with my new, wonderful partner whom I've just had DD with. So whatever you decide in regards to which country, just leave him. It can be done! And you and your DD will be happier in the long run.

NotTreadingGrapes Mon 22-Apr-13 06:48:28

SS- no I know you weren't disagreeing with me smile

Is it Germany you are in OP?

It doesn't really matter which country you are flying into and out of. They are all being advised to check, it's just the bureaucratic motions that are slowing it down for some countries. Also, they seem to pick and choose when/who to ask. Christmas 2011 I was asked both when leaving Italy and when entering the UK (dd travels on a UK passport) for the letter of consent. Coming out of the UK and back into Italy I wasn't. Since then I haven't been asked at all (and have been in and out about 6 times. I do however always have the letter and wave it about so it can be seen)

dontmeanto Mon 22-Apr-13 06:48:41

X-posts! Ah, that's great then, if he wouldn't object then get outta there! Good luck x

Seabright Mon 22-Apr-13 06:54:21

Are you in a city with a British Consulate or in Berlin, with the Embassy? If so, get her a British passport now, so that if her German one goes "missing" or accidently gets "destroyed" by him, you and she can still travel.

They'll probably be able to give advice on what sort of consents you need to move her to the UK too.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now