Worth trying (yet) again?

[sipofwine]

DP and I been together 8 years, 2 DC, small. We have had a difficult relationship - he has anger issues and we rarely have 'small and normal' arguments/rows - just huge, shouting ones every few months or so. I may be arsey about something (obviously I can be - as most people can..) and he gets angry in a disproportionate way. I react by getting upset and shouting back. WE have tried to deal with what we see as essentially being incompatible by attending counselling (two different counsellors) and he attended anger management a few years ago but refused to discuss his childhood with her (which, in my opinion is root cause as his father had a terrible temper and DP was shouted at regularly as a child and also beaten with a belt for punishment). Anyhow - the counselling seemed to do some good in the short-term as we were both keen to try the techniques and became much better at communicating with each other. Another way he has dealing with his annoyance towards me is to be passive aggressive and he recently didn't speak to me for 2 MONTHS!!! He will disengage from me occasionally (maybe every couple of months) and usually after me asking what's wrong and trying to cajole him/ignore him out of it, he will go back to normal after a few hours, or even day or two and things will be fine. This time, I decided to take action, though and didn't indulge him at all - so stayed perfectly civil and polite but after him refusing to tell me what was wrong a couple of times, I simply ignored the fact that he was not giving me eye contact/physical contact of any type ie we just discussed the necessary stuff like the children/what we were having for dinner (hence neither of us budged and it was an incredible two months).

Over this time I did a lot of thinking (and posted here on MN a couple of times and got really useful advice) and basically felt like a veil had been lifted from before my eyes. I realised that our relationship was dysfunctional and that he was bordering on the EA. I would like to point out, as I always try to on here, that I do not think I am the completely innocent party here. I know I can be demanding, a bit snappy and stubborn but I do maintain that everyone has their faults and I'm fairly normal. Anyhow - I decided that once Xmas was over and the next time he lost his temper with me that I was going to end it. This happened - he shouted at me and threatened that I should 'back off or he would say some things that would really upset me'.

That night we discussed it and I basically said I couldn't stand it anymore and thought it was very bad for the DC to witness this angry, shouty, unstable atmosphere. I also hate the way he threatens me and that I find it unacceptable. Anyhow - he has fallen apart, cried and not eaten for three days, begged me to stay, told me he loves me etc etc. He has booked an appointment to see his doctor with the hope he might get referred to someone re: Anger Management (lack of money makes private sessions unlikely) and read the passive aggressive article that someone sent to me on here, very helpfully. He agrees that he has both of these issues and has sworn that he will give his utmost to try to turn things around. At the moment, I have said that I still think we should split up, he move into rented accom and attend that counselling and see how things pan out in the future. However, obviously this isn't ideal in terms of upset to the children. I was so determined to end this ridiculous relationship but he is so incredibly remorseful. Do you think people can change in the long-term and should we give it another go?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

I'm sure people can change long-term but unfortunately, his reaction of immediately falling to pieces when it looked as though he was about to lose everything is fairly standard for an emotional bully. When the shouting stops working they try emotional blackmail. Some threaten suicide... it's all the same thing. Rarely lasts long before they revert to type

I'd stick to your guns. If he's truly remorseful and really wants to change then you can review his progress a few weeks or months down the track and see how you feel. However, I would anticipate that once you are out from under his influence for just a short time, you will feel so much better that you'll be reluctant to go back again.

[Lueji]

I think he could change, but not if you let him be around.

I think you are doing the right thing in sending him away and only let him come back if things improve.

The children will adapt.

Having parents shouting at each other in their home is probably worse.

[sipofwine]

Oh bugger! Thanks, Cogito, Lueji and TisILeclerc for your sage advice. I know you're right - I was slowly veering towards giving in yesterday until I read your wise words. The problem is, we have this 'happy family' a lot of the time and I constantly wonder if I'm being unreasonable/melodramatic/unrealistic. I can see when looking at it in an unemotional way that separating is probably the most sensible thing to do - even if it is just for a trial period. Do you think that def means he has to actually move out ie: rent somewhere?

I am thinking of giving it a time limit - maybe six months or so - but do you think I should discuss this with him or quietly monitor his behaviour towards me without him 'knowing' IYKWIM? I know I sound like a teenager - I'm a middle-aged woman for god's sake!!! I'm really interested to know how others have dealt with this and the thing is that I am pretty sure that my friends and family would say 'give him another chance' if I confided in them.

[DonkeysDontRideBicycles]

It sounds very wearing and only you know if you have the stamina to go on. Your family and friends don't have to live with him!

Lots of people have loud shouty relationships and call it passionate. Beneath the noise is still mutual respect and trust and yes, love.

In your case, alternate bouts of shouting and 2 month silent treatment are not what I call passionate but bullying and the least healthy environment for children. I would seriously worry physical violence would be but a small leap.

[DonkeysDontRideBicycles]

So I would still plan a separation, carry it out and review after 6 months.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

The trouble with the 'probation' approach is that nothing from his perspective really changes. You can end up, six months down the road, having to face the same agonising decisions all over again, wondering about giving (yet) more chances to improve. The trouble with the 'separation' approach is that it's a big upheaval emotionally, physically, financially. There are no good choices in these situations.

[DonkeysDontRideBicycles]

So are you saying Cogito a probation period just puts off the inevitable? I do agree it's a massive adjustment but if the OP wanted to stop this marriage wouldn't she already be packing his bags not posting here, undecided?

Sorry OP don't mean to talk about you like you're not here. You said part way through your last post,"we have this 'happy family' a lot of the time", do you mean most of the time you rub along perfectly well or did you miss a word like 'image'? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

[dequoisagitil]

I think this guy has had a lot of chances and wake-up calls already. Results being nil.

Stick to your guns and end it.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

The OP's suggestion of a kind of secret probation at home delays things, certainly. What's inevitable is not that he leaves but that there will be more chances. The OP said originally I decided that once Xmas was over and the next time he lost his temper with me that I was going to end it. That resolution has been and gone and nothing ended. I can't see how six months of quiet monitoring will result in a different outcome.

[sipofwine]

Thanks for messages, Donkeys, and you're not putting words in my mouth - I'm grateful for this to be discussed. I do mean we 'are' a happy family. DP and I get on well a lot of the time - maybe two thirds (though obviously hard to estimate in a that way!) so when it's fine, it's fine - I wouldn't say brilliant, but we are fine and the kids are happy. But when he snaps - he really does and I have spent a large proportion of the time we've been together very, very upset because he's either 'switched off' from me and showering all his affection on the kids (in a PA way towards me) or feeling hurt, upset and bullied because I've been shouted at in an abusive way. HOWEVER - obviously when he does discuss his feelings he tells me things from his point of view and I understand how he feels too. He's not a bad person - he's really lovely in lots of ways and I miss hugging him and feeling that comfortableness that you get with someone you've been with for years and would miss that so much. I know he has anger issues and finds it hard to express himself calmly. He has agreed that he needs to sort these two things out. Sorry - I'm rambling now - just trying to explain my quandry really. It's good, comfy, easy, relaxed and lovely a good deal, in fact probably most of the time. Some of the time I find it very upsetting and dysfunctional and most of all worry about how the kids are being affected by the instability.

[sipofwine]

Cogito sorry - I'm not explaining myself very well. I'm a bit all over the place today. I value your responses and actually I've NC a few times through embarrassment of remaining in this place and still asking for further advice here on MN and you have always been so helpful to my posts.

I guess what I now want opinions on is whether it is wise to actually say that we will give it a 6-month or so trial 'out loud' to each other (providing he is attending his counselling as promised) or whether that allows him to control his temper and lead me back into the relationship under false pretenses. I'm making this complicated!! I basically just want to know if people have done trial separations once DP has moved out or if they've just kept track of whether things have improved and acted accordingly in their own heads....

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

It's a bit of a truism to say that abusive/bullying people are very nice when they're not being abusive or bullying. It's also true that, being with someone like that for a prolongued period of time, your acceptance of the bad behaviour gets skewed because you value the 'good, comfy, easy, relaxed' part enough to make excuses or rationalise it away.

When I was with my exH I also thought we had a great connection and he was lovely in lots of ways. He was also very keen to share his feelings, especially when they seemed to explain his behaviour I also attributed the outbursts to 'issues' because that's what he as telling me. It took a long time to readjust. Even now, years after his departure, something brings him back to mind and I have another little 'good grief, why did I put up with that?' moment.

My 'test' is this. At his worst, if a stranger came into your home and displayed the same behaviour would you think they were trying be friendly, would you be sitting down with them looking for psychologial reasons for their actions, or would you be on the phone to the police...?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"I basically just want to know if people have done trial separations once DP has moved out or if they've just kept track of whether things have improved and acted accordingly in their own heads.... "

I gave my exH chance after chance and he stuck around. His behaviour would improve or deteriorate roughly in proportion with me having had enough or not. I did part company with him once but he practically camped on the doorstep until I gave in. Eventually... ironically.... he left of his own volition to be with someone else who 'didn't give him such a hard time' :)

[DonkeysDontRideBicycles]

Thanks for clarifying, Cogito.

sipofwine quietly monitoring your DP is probably what you've already been doing? I know it takes two to row but after 8 years you've already tried counselling and put different approaches into practice. Has this relationship run its course?

It seems a lot to carry on your shoulders, if you do confide in a rl friend or close relative they may add pressure to go one way or the other, or may have some inkling already and be waiting for you to broach it. Whatever happens I'd probably want to line up some solid support.

[sipofwine]

You're right - I consider myself pretty no-nonsence (ironically) and would def not put up with it from anyone else. Even whilst he's making me feel confused and have been considering trying again (over last few days) I'm still having flashbacks to horrendous rows when I've just had to drive off and cry/smoke a cigarette (gave up years ago but only do after horrible rows with him) just to try to calm down. Have felt pretty desperate over the years and sometimes long to just be calm and stable for a prolonged period of time without any shouting. God knows the children must feel like that then.

[Lueji]

So, you are not well 1/3 of the time? That's quite a lot, actually. That's about 2 days each week.
And he is abusive and makes threats when he's upset?

You realise that the good times are there because otherwise you'd leave?

And you say the good times are not even that good. They're OK.

Not eaten for three days is the equivalent of suicide threats, IMO. It's a grand gesture for you to feel sorry for him.

Personally, I wouldn't give him a time during which he'd have to behave. He can always keep it up (if he can) and then relapse. Six months are nothing.

If you "give another try" I'd tell him that shouting again, or making another thread means separation. End of.

But it depends on you.
How tired are you?

At some point I was exhausted and just couldn't bear another argument or another threat (then there was the DV). I have dealt better with his appaling behaviour post break up than with the intensity of the arguments in the home.