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My ds1 and my other children

(69 Posts)
WinkyWinkola Wed 02-Jan-13 20:02:38

Tonight my ds2 (aged 3) stood in front of me and dd (aged 5), spread his bottom cheeks and said, "Look at my butthole!"

I could have wept. His older brother (aged 7) is bringing all this disgusting language and behaviour into the house and teaching it to his siblings. Words like butt breath, constant (and I mean constant) talk of diarrhoea, poo etc. 

It makes me so sad and angry that my younger dcs are losing their childhood innocence far quicker than ds1 did. 

Ds1 has had huge anger and defiance issues. He's seen a counsellor for over a year now and his behaviour has improved slightly. As to whether this is him getting older or the counselling, I don't know. 

He finds all this foul language hilarious and gets very giddy, hyper and silly to the extent where I look at him and wonder if he's actually sane. He won't stop it regardless of our asking him not to talk of such stuff especially to the younger dcs. 

 If I do anything like take a toy off him, he gets very abusive and writes stuff like "Mummy is a shit!" on the car windows. 

Our relationship is pretty bad. His hostility to my every day requests like teeth cleaning, come sit down for a meal etc is pretty strong.

 I can't leave him alone with the dog - the dog bombs into where I am after a few minutes alone with ds1 - or playing with the other dcs because one of them always gets hurt. I may not always see what happens but it's never ds1 hurt or crying. 

He just doesn't seem bothered about his behaviour and our requests to modify it. I'm strict with removing toys or privileges but it doesn't change things in the long term. We just clash and clash because he resents my making requests of him and I detest what he brings to the family in terms of foul language and defiant, idiot behaviour.  Almost every polite word from me is met with impatience, rudeness and a curled lip at best. He adores his dad who like me, condemns the poor behaviour. 

He's only 7 (8 in April) but he has the air of an invincible teenager and thinks nothing of flying off into a rage. The counsellor just thinks he's an intelligent, highly emotional child who cannot handle his intense feelings yet. 

I can't see things getting better and am exhausted by the constant conflict. Where does he find the energy for it? I get upset at the thought of him leaving home and never wanting to see me again. But then the thought of not having to deal with him brings me much relief too. 

Is there something I'm missing? I've tried the time alone with him, going bowling, the cinema etc and if you're alone with him, it's fine. Otherwise, it's horrible. 

Any ideas please?

LaCiccolina Wed 02-Jan-13 20:16:25

May I ask - and I really don't want to hurt so apologies for asking - but has the councillor ruled out any SEN type issues? I'm no doctor at all, this sounds intensely distressing. I also have limited boys experience just really didn't want to read and run. I'm so sorry it's so hard and sending hugs....

Footface Wed 02-Jan-13 20:23:42

Just a couple of questions How's his behaviour at school? And has this been a problem that has escalated over time or changed quickly.

My ss was very defiant. He was also very clever but stubborn with it didn't care for punishments, they just seemed make him more determined

WinkyWinkola Wed 02-Jan-13 20:24:17

No SEN issues identified. He's doing very very well at school - prize winning - and is very well behaved there.

It was because his behaviour is perfect at school that the GP could not refer him. We found out own counsellor who is very understanding and supportive.

Cheesemonkey Wed 02-Jan-13 20:25:17

It sounds very difficult for you all. As pp said, it may be worth looking at wether or not this is an SEN issue, his school should be able to help here. It might also be worth looking into some family therapy, as it sounds like his behaviour is impacting on all of you.

WinkyWinkola Wed 02-Jan-13 20:27:11

Hr has been prone to huge hysterics since the age of 2. We just thought it toddler rage but the drama went on and in and on.

We were so desperate after 36 hours of his rage one weekend and that's when we decided we had to tighten out belts and shell out for a counsellor ourselves. He loves her.

I fear for my other dcs thinking this is normal behaviour. They are all well behaved, occasional hissy fit but all normal and so east to manage in comparison.

I just wish he was the youngest so he couldn't influence the others.

WinkyWinkola Wed 02-Jan-13 20:28:57

I think I need to be clearer about what SEN actually means.

Does anyone else's dc get more and more hyper, making ape like noises and flailing at the meal table?

He does not behave like this outside of our immediate family it has to be said.

He doesn't have many friends either.

Footface Wed 02-Jan-13 20:29:49

I think you need to go back to the gp, his behaviour sounds extreme. I think you should explain that he's hurting your dog, might help to make a referral

Sometimes list worked with ss, so there would be a list of expectations i.e. wash face, clean teeth, helped for a bit as the control was his.

izzyizin Wed 02-Jan-13 20:34:21

He has been prone to huge hysterics since the age of 2 Was this before or after the birth of dd?

WinkyWinkola Wed 02-Jan-13 20:41:04

Around dd's birth. I also messed up BIG TIME by stopping bfing him when she was born. Counsellor thinks that has something to do with it but that his behaviour is rather extreme still.

stargirl1701 Wed 02-Jan-13 20:41:05

I obviously don't know you, your family or your ds1 but I did teach a wee boy whose parents reported similar difficulties. He had an attachment disorder. He made great progress over just one year with access to a nuture base. Maybe something to consider raising with school or an Ed Psych?

Midlifecrisisarefun Wed 02-Jan-13 20:41:46

Reminds me of DS1, undiagnosed behaviours, low boredom threshold, high IQ, easily frustrated, silly behaviour, defiant, attention seeking, poor sleep patterns, unable to 'get' other people/friendships. School was good until between 7 and 8.
Does he do sport etc where he can burn off energy and frustration? How does he sleep?
DS1 improved, for few years, in a prep school on a scholarship where they did an hour and half a day sport! They also had very high academic expectations.
He needed both physical challenge and intellectual stimulation and strict routine.
DS1 slipped back in his teens to pain in arse! He is now 24, still doesn't sleep well and needs constant stimulation or is a real pain. He works up to 80hrs a week or doesn't know what to do with himself!
I send my heartfelt sympathies!

WinkyWinkola Wed 02-Jan-13 20:46:53

Shit Midlife. Snap. He's a crap sleeper. Could go to bed at midnight and still up at 5.45am.

He thinks nothing of waking up the whole house at this hour or earlier by being really noisy or crawling into my bed from the bottom and tickling me.

He is pushed hard at school. Hes not bored there. sport every day at school plus karate 2 x per week and football on Sat am. Plus piano. If I don't get him to do extra stuff, he is just not tired.

I'm scared he will get into drugs when he's older as a two fingers up at me.. He LOVES computer games but I won't let him play those now because of the total hysterics he had when I ask him back to earth for food or bedtime.

Smudging Wed 02-Jan-13 20:49:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Smudging Wed 02-Jan-13 20:55:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Looksgoodingravy Wed 02-Jan-13 21:02:31

I read the 123 Magic book and never looked back. Ds is now 6 and we use the techniques explained in the book, this book was actually recommended to us by a child behaviourist. Not for everyone granted but for us it's worked a treat!

ImperialBlether Thu 03-Jan-13 00:39:18

It sounds incredibly stressful, OP.

One thing I wonder though is how does your DS1 know those words in the first place? Where does he hear language like that?

I would talk to your GP and explain how he is with the dog and the other children. I worry that his behaviour will become sexualised at a young age, too, and would hate for your other children to fall victim to that.

izzyizin Thu 03-Jan-13 02:51:14

Are you saying that you breastfed your ds1 until he was 2yo or thereabouts and that you abruptly ceased to breastfeed him after the birth of your dd?

You've said that he's well-behaved 'outside of the immediate family'. Does your definition of 'immediate family' include dgps, aunts/uncles, cousins, or is it you/your dh and his siblings?

Is his behaviour more acceptable when his df is around or does he continue to exhibit the same level of hostility towards you?

FWIW, the 'disgusting language' you've referred to is not uncommon in children of his age, particularly boys, who can go through a phase of taking great delight in repeating words that describe bodily functions ad nauseum and showing off his 'butt hole' is par for the course.

Did you adopt a suitably unimpressed demeanour and ignore his display? If not, how did you react?

How long has he been seeing a private counsellor and what is her specialism?

izzyizin Thu 03-Jan-13 05:18:10

Having re-read your responses, I note that he has been seeing a private counsellor for the past year. How many sessions per month does he attend? What strategies or therapy has she advised for addressing/counteracting his inappropriate behaviour?

Two additional question: have you been a sahm since ds1's birth and has his school expressed any concern about his behaviour?

WinkyWinkola Thu 03-Jan-13 08:51:05

Hi Izzy.

I stopped bfing him 4 weeks after dd was born. It wasn't as abrupt as suddenly stopping but it was that gradual either. Say from 3 feeds per down to 1 in a week. I feel great shame about that but I was freaked out by random feeding a newborn and a toddler.

He sees his counsellor every Saturday morning. She says ignore mild bad behaviour, give warnings and then put him in his room for punishment.

I have been a SAHM all this time.

WinkyWinkola Thu 03-Jan-13 08:55:13

He behaves badly with me, his father and siblings. And with my parents around but not dh's. They have seen flashes of it because they've been here for a whole weekend but never the full extent. He seems to be able to control himself in certain situations.

The counsellor suggested a meeting with his teacher last year. She was astounded at the behaviours we had described to her. The counsellor wanted to keep the school in the loop. There are no problems at school for him at all. He thrives there. I mean he gets into trouble for being slow in the changing room but nothing major at all.

WinkyWinkola Thu 03-Jan-13 09:04:05

That's tandom, not random feeding.

He definitely tries to play off his dad and me. He has always preferred his dad even from as young as 5 months - he would only be soothed by his dad.

So we have struggled to be united - I don't think we even realised how skilfully he was dividing and ruling us. It's better now in that we have established a hierarchy of action if he misbehaves and what to do if one of us is losing our temper.

I know kids are fascinated with bodily functions but he goes on and on and on about it. I timed him once on a car journey. He was talking and sniggering about diarrhoea, butt holes etc for 118 minutes despite my asking him to stop it.

It's his influence on my younger dcs. A 3 year old saying , "Look at my butt hole," and spreading his cheeks upsets me.

What happens when ds1 hears about sex from wherever? Is he going to come home and go on and on and on about it to the others in a sniggering, tittering way?

I know I can't stop this kind of knowledge but it's that coupled with all his other behaviours, it just feels like he's not altogether there and that he really doesn't get appropriate behaviour despite our constant boundary setting.

Sometimes I just feel disgusted with him and with me because I feel it's all out of my control and I'm useless with him.

Smudging Thu 03-Jan-13 09:31:19

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WinkyWinkola Thu 03-Jan-13 10:34:08

We have labelled him as difficult, you are right.

We ignore him or put him in his room whenever he shows unacceptable behaviour. We have done this for the last two years having realised that trying to get through to him when he's in the red mist is impossible.

It's very hard to ignore a child when you are driving on the motorway and he has unbuckled his seat belt and is throwing his booster seat about, screaming until he is red in the face. Why? Because you told him that we have to go to the supermarket.

It's also very hard to ignore a child when they trash their bedroom or refuse to get ready for school or run through the house, upstairs and downstairs screaming throughout.

So, whether we have labelled him as difficult or if he is actually difficult, who knows?

We absolutely ignore where possible but the influence on the younger dcs is worrying me too.

HollyBerryBush Thu 03-Jan-13 11:00:10

He's attention seeking - and you are giving him negative attention - any attention to an attention seeker is good attention.

He is an attention seeker pure and simple - he can manage his behaviour for other people - ie school/GPs

By now his councellor should haved identified why he has the need to demand all your attention - and that probably comes from jealousy of your other, younger children, who take up more of your time.

My eldest was like this, although by the time he hit secondary school he gave them the ride of their life as well "sigh^, he's just coming through the other side now he's 17.

He hasn't affected the other children at all, who if anything think he's a bit of a prat.

Eventually your younger children will resent him because he takes up all of your time and they will feel marginalised.

I don't have the answers, I couldn't find them myself.

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