Mumsnet Talk

Oh, and the guy is a psychologist.

He sounds as if he is disliked and disrespected by you and knows it. And this might be why he is being a bully, I mean what else is he sposed to do, fall at your feet begging for forgiveness? That's not very manly.

WTAF?? I went back and read the other thread. I strongly suggest you do too.

What a bunch of sexist, nonsense drivel. He's not manly because he is a bully. Bullies are cowards who prey on those weaker and smaller than them. In this case, his wife and children.

He respects her as much as he respects the shit on his shoe but oh noez, she isn't being wifey enough?

drizzlecake, you may be making the mistake of thinking this man is reasonable. Certainly, when I have been assertive in the past, he has not taken it on board, more likely accused me of having the problem I'm confronting him with, or dismissing it with a sarcastic, "So long as I'm always in the wrong, that's all right then." It's hard to imagine an abusive man if your dp is not one, but even indirectly suggesting the OP "give him a bollocking" "justifiedly" is dangerous advice.

Second the suggestion that you approach this with him in the way you see best. Just try to be direct, and watch his response carefully.

Best of luck getting

The recent discussion reminds me of when my dad hit me for something and nothing when I was a child. He and my mum came up to my room where I was lying crying in bed and told me that they have to present a united front in terms of discipline so that was why my mum didn't disagree with him or comfort me. And even if parents are wrong they're right really.

I do blame my mum for not protecting me and although I can see that she was ground down herself, she should have been on my side. Growing up without parents who have genuinely got your best interests at heart does not produce well adjusted adults and when one parent is appeasing the other, this is just not possible.

You have an excellent opportunity for insight and development and you should be proud of yourself that you are recognising things aren't quite right. My mum is still scurrying round after my dad, expects everyone else to and gets defensive when people point out that it's not how things should be.

By manly I meant from his point of view, he isn't going to magically realise his faults and beg forgiveness. OP should try other ways to make changes.

My advice was to try to make changes and then, if they fail, OP can decide what to do.

What happens when he won't listen to you (again) and the atmosphere becomes tense? Are you going to back down and stfu?

Seems to me you came out of violent(?) sexually abusive relationship and were then vulnerable to a man who abuses you in subtler ways. He seems a better man, but his behaviour is insidiously poisonous.

He doesn't need to hit you or anything, he just needs to let you feel his displeasure and he knows you'll back down.

Thank you for replying. I did get up and sort DC2. Then later DH got up and was much more helpful than usual given we then had the extra complications this morning of sick child (he went into work later so I didn't need to take DC2 on school run).

I hadn't really thought of 'discipline' being what I do all the time to get DC to just manage their behaviour/keep the show on the road. I had been using the word discipline to mean punishment. Will look at the 123 Magic DVD.

Jux Why do you ask about apologising? DH probably thinks that I do not apologise for anything. I do apologise, but I have always just given short simple apologies to him, I don't think he hears that I am sorry but I am not grovelling. I don't think I should have to give huge heartfelt apologies to my husband for small things. But I do now do things to try to ensure I am not in a situation where he expects me to apologise (for example I broke a plate a month or so ago, totally accidentally, and told him DC3 was responsible as I did not want him to take the piss/go on to try and get me to apologise in a big way for a broken plate). Again, this sounds ridiculous written down!

dequois I don't know what I will do if the situation gets tense. I don't really know what I am afraid of. I don't really think he would be physically violent, but I don't know. I am physically a small/petite person (despite my nn!) and, as you say, I think (hope) that it is just the fear of how my ex behaved that stops me being more confrontational.

It doesn't sound ridiculous, it is horrifying that you feel you have to cover up an accidental breakage like that.

If I break a plate (which I do a lot as I'm a clumsy arse) I shove it in the bin and think no more of it. Dh will just laugh it off and help me clear it up. If it were a fancy plate we valued, we'd both be a little upset, but hey, it's just a thing at the end of the day. Accidents don't need more than a 'whoops' or an 'oh shit, I'm sorry'.

It is really wrong that you have been put into such a place that you need to cover up such incidences.

* I broke a plate a month or so ago, totally accidentally, and told him DC3 was responsible as I did not want him to take the piss/go on to try and get me to apologise in a big way for a broken plate*



I'm glad you see how ridiculous this sounds written down. Can you also see how heartbreaking it is, because that sentence made me cry.

As others have said, you seem to view discipline in thelight in which your H practises it, and not as what you do every day of your life. Discipline is not punishment and control, it is something so much more, and your approach sounds well-balanced in the context of how we view child-rearing in the 21st century. Please don't do yourself the disservice thinking that your H disciplines and you do nothing - you are disciplining them in yourown healthy way all day every day. It's about teaching societal norms, and guiding through communal behaviour. Have a read of this - I always find Montessori's definiting and understanding of discipline really enlightening and encouraging as it is so focused on the child's ability to learn for themselves what is required of them in the big wide world.

It will be worthwhile reading in light of the way your H treats your DC and considering what lessons about discipline they are taking from their encounters with him.

With regards to speaking with your H, I think it is probably fairly obvious now how your H has structured your relationship to work (possibly even to you, although you are so involved still, it's probably very difficult).

You were in a physically abusive relationship, and your H "rescued" you. You are afraid of what might happen if you make him angry, and he knows this. He has even hinted at the repercussions of crossing him by hitting a wall/door (sorry, can't remember which). He has pushed butting with you to see how far you will take things (leaving cupboards and doors open despite you voicing your objections) and he knows now that you will drop key issues for fear of angering him. He has you well trained. I think you know that you don't want to have a direct discussion with him as you don't know what he'll do. Don't for one minute assume that he isn't aware of how you feel - after all, this has been his goal all along.

This whole experience must be so bewlidering for you, but if I can give you one piece of advice, it would be this: every time you think of something that you are worried about detailing on this thread because of what me may think of your H, POST IT. This is how you will start to enlighten yourself. It won't be our reaction which is important, but rather your own. Every time you write it down, and every time you see how "ridiculous" it sounds, you are growing and understanding.

What I apologise to my husband for:
being grumpy

What I do not apologise for:
breaking stuff by accident

What I asked to apologise for repeatedly:
nothing

Honestly, even DS doesn't have to apologise to me for breaking a plate.
He's just expected to clean it up (within reason...).

(Disclaimer: unless he had thrown it in the air or something like that)

If I had to apologise for breaking a plate in my own home, I'd be tempted to break a few on H's head.

I hear that it is difficult for you to get his behaviour is very wrong (and your efforts to appease/keep calmness), but it is ridiculous to avoid blame for breaking a plate by accident, ooops, is about right for the response! Its a plate! I am also pleased you sensed it sounded ridiculous when written down (as it absolutely is). Maybe the understanding that you say you do not 'get', is whether this is you over-compensating for fear of previous experiences, or whether it is him?

I think his behaviour is awful, and you probably have learnt ways to manage situations to avoid any conflict, which means facing fear in order to change that. Only you will know how safe or not, you all are, but you must know that before attempting any challenge to the status quo for him, so that you and DC remain safe.

You know how to give your DC the emo and physical care and attention they need, keep going its exactly what they need. Let them see that you care and have time to give attention, are interested and will not frighten them into doing things faster, and nurse when ill. I hope DC is better soon and you have a lovely day with them enjoying them.

The relationship with your H is very flawed right now.

We all blame both parents if they didn't protect us, it is their primary job. I blamed mine for not protecting me (same as Handbag ^thread) against my father, and actually making me feel his temper was my fault! The only one at fault is the one who can only discipline by fear.

Fi

GB, being assertive has nothing to do with size.
I was very assertive with ex, even though he had more than twice my weight and about 8 inches taller.

It's mostly about attitude.
Something that you must develop, possibly with the help of counselling. But you have to start doing it in your life.

And if he ever becomes physically threatening you should know that it's time to leave immediately.

I had an abusive ex and now I have a non abusive DP. I have had a few minor wobbles about approaching certain subjects or things with DP because of my past and how my ex would have reacted, but over time I have learned through experience that I no longer need to fear that he will react that way because he is not abusive. Initially I felt the fear on thinking about or starting the conversation, but the way DP discussed it with me has reassured me over time that I dont need to fear about those previous triggers.

However you HAVE tried to discuss stuff previously, or to put your point accross, and although he hasnt reacted quite as violently as your ex, he has still reacted in ways that made you afraid to go down those paths again. that says far more about his behaviour than your previous experience. He has reinforced your fears rather than reassured you by discussing/compromising in a supportive and loving/equal way. This is the difference, and why you must understand that you are recognising the behaviour because it is still abusive, although different.

GB, please ignore DrizzleCake's awful post, it is victim-blaming bullshit. No-one is a bully because of anyone else's actions or attitude, people only bully because there is something deeply flawed and inadequate within them that makes them need to make other people lesser than them, less real than them in order to cope or feel any sort of self esteem. There is nothing that anyone else in the world could do, say, infer even, that makes a person bully.

When you said this: Now it just seems as though DH has his ideas and that is largely what goes. I don’t think I can even remember much about the ideas I used to have on this I thought, yep, that just about sums up their whole relationship, not just his approach to childrearing...

I am impressed that you refuse to give big flowery apologies over trivialities. This is assertive and positive, well done you. Not at all surprised that he expects such melodramatic grovelling over nothing, however. His ego needs are gobsmackingly grandiose and immature. Not impressed that you blamed DC3, however. Yes, she's only a baby but don't get into that as a habit. You're meant to protect them, not use them to protect yourself, even if they won't receive repercussions. By doing this sort of thing, you place yourself on a level with them as a child helpless and powerless in the face of Daddy's wrath. This will stop you being able to protect them. They are already being sacrificed on a low level over your need to appease, minimise and blank things out.

The plate thing doesn't sound ridiculous, btw, it sounds horrifying and bonkers. Why on earth would a grown adult have to lie over something as utterly mundane as breaking a plate because they are scared of their partner's reaction?! If you can't see how fucked-up, wrong and abusive that is, then I am really worried.

I am 5ft 1, by the way, and do not feel scared, EVER, about confronting or aguing with my DH. My EA Ex was 6ft5 and I was scared about confronting or arguing, because I could never be 100% sure his emotional abuse wouldn't tip over into violence. But in a healthy, respectful relationshipmof equals, I have no worries whatsoever. Do you see? Your fear of things tipping over do not all come from your past experiences, it's because the instinctive, animal part of yourself recognises abuse even if your mind does not consciously name it such and feels uneasy that violence could occur. And your OH has cleverly made sure to do a few violent and aggressive things in your presence, just enough to ensure that a former victim of violent abuse can never feel 100% secure or relaxed. Keeping you neatly in your place. Bastard.

My DC the same Lueji just ask to clear it up (unless glass, or china plate), but I go for the 'don't worry, its ok, just an accident ... keep away from it whilst I clear it up', I do show if a broken something has upset me, but thats for me to manage although has upset DC in past and I've had to reassure that I'll 'get over it, its only a ... you didn't mean it,etc.' DC don't like to have broken something, it doesn't feel nice for them, being precious about that is our problem.

Unless as you say, DC juggling with or behaving without consideration for possible damage!

Nettletea thats lovely to hear! As those patterns of fear (even without the fear) are like very bad habits to break, having sometimes spent a lifetime putting in place, and your new DP is giving the reasurrance to break them for you (hope for us all!).

Fi

I'm that you even feel there is any blame attached to breaking a plate, and double that you felt you needed to blame it on the baby! It might be the only member of the household who wouldn't get into trouble over it, but why should there even be any trouble? They're your plates ffs. Unless it was a precious heirloom from your H's family and you were juggling with it, no blame should attach. Besides, if you worked for a living, as you used to and want to again, you could buy a whole set of replacements.

Either you feel such minor mishaps are a big deal when they aren't, in which case I hope your counsellor helps you to relax and take these things in your stride, or your H really would throw a wobbly about it, in which case he is a knob of the first water. I think we're all leaning towards the second interpretation as a great deal more likely, frankly.

You have an accident with a plate, and are scared of having to apologise for it, so blame your child.

I asked because I had a feeling you might be doing that, or having to grovel for things which people don't usually have to apologise for at all! If I broke something - unless it was special - I wouldn't apologise, I don't think. Why? I didn't do it on purpose. Who to? I have no idea. Crockery belongs to both of you. Apologise to yourself, then just tell dh it's happened. Or don't.

If dh breaks something, he'll probably tell me. He wouldn't apologise either. Why would he?

I can see that pretending one of your children did it makes life smoother. At some point though, he'll hold them responsible and chastise/punish.

While I agree with OxfordBags' indictment of drizzlecake's post, I do think she sounds quite similar to me, two or three years ago. That belief I had that since I can't change him, I must change myself to cope. And try to love him through it all... That sunny "oh our relationship's much better now that I've...", which doesn't sit easily with the condescension with which I spoke about him (or even all men) at times...

" But they are his DC too, and I don't feel I can dictate to him how he should behave with them."

Yet he does it to you all the time..

is anyone gonna stand up for them?

I don't think that is fair Princess. GettingBig is just beginning to realise the situation she is in. I am also sure that she tries to protect her children from the worst of his traits (albeit sub-conciously) on a daily basis. I don't think she needs the guilt-trip from us. She gets that enough from him.