Mumsnet Talk

Hi, thought I would start a new thread. I don't know how to link, please could someone else?

The thread title is obviously meant to be positive, though I am not feeling particularly positive right now. I am hearing what you are all saying about my responsibilities towards my DC though x

Previous thread

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((hugs)) for you, GettingBig - it's brilliant that you're still here, still reading and thinking about it all. It must be very, very challenging to do this, and I admire you for it.

I should add something about the contraception issue if I may.

I had the coil in for 7 years. My dh never noticed. I had the strings cut quite high, so were never able to feel them myself either. I had the copper one, so had periods as normal.

My dh never wore a condom when I had the coil in, like yours will. He will be unlikely to feel any little strings through the condom, and most likely too busy to notice!

I used the pill before, but turned into a moody mare and put on weight.

I can totally recommend the coil.

Good to see you are getting more positive. You are making progress - but in not too many baby steps!

DH does really love all 3 DC. I now realise he doesn't DO much for them, but he wouldn't want any harm to come to them at all. He plays with them, buys them treats, enjoys talking about them etc. He can be lovely with them.

GoldQuint I do think that they are happy childen. I don't know what they would say ten years from now, but they do seem happy now. DC1 in particular does very well at school.

I don't think I am condoning abuse by having the united front - although I do enforce the TV bans I do not get involved when he is having certain other disagreements. I never actively support him when I think he is being OTT. One example is teeth-cleaning, as that is something he does sometimes do with them. DC1 has occasionally faffed about so much and DH gets fed up with the time it takes DC1 to mobilise and get the job done. DH has then said "OK, you've taken too long so now you are not allowed to clean your teeth". DC1 reacts badly, suddenly rushes to clean teeth, shouting at him. He insists no, DC1 ends up going to bed upset. I would normally be settling DC3 at this point, so am not involved. I do worry about this teeth cleaning thing, I am fully aware it would not look acceptable if DC1 talked about such an incident to, say, a teacher. But they are his DC too, and I don't feel I can dictate to him how he should behave with them

you've taken the biggest step already - and that was to face up to the fact that something isn't right.

you're doing great!

ooer cross post.

you don't have to dictate but if i saw something i didn't like that my dh was doing i would talk to him about it when the kids weren't around. and he does the same.

it's not dictating, it's working how you parent and what you find acceptable.

OxfordBags and mathanxiety you both refer to the idea that this thing with the discipline reinforces DH's power over me and DC/idea that he is enjoying being king of the house etc...But DH has said to me that he would like me to get more involved with the discipline. I have not taken up that request, because I do not agree with the approach he is taking. So I am not sure that he is doing it to get more control over me, as he has effectively tried to persuade me to support him more, but I prefer to leave it to him.

Honestly GettingBig you are doing brilliantly. claudedebussy is right it isn't dictating but he would see it as that.

I think you asked at the end of the last thread that if you improved your self-esteem would it change his behaviour (for the better). I think it would help you and that is the main thing. I think that focussing on changing his behaviour will use up energy that you probably haven't got (or don't need to waste). He behaves like this because he feels justified in doing so. No amount of change of behaviour on your part will change his sense of entitlement that his needs come first.

So glad you're still here, GB! You've got guts, and I take my hat off to you.

The teeth cleaning thing. OK, a bit of reverse psychology works wonders, but the point of it is to finish up with cleaned teeth. What is his point? Not only are the teeth not brushed, but the child goes to bed upset. That's a big fail, isn't it?

If you were to get involved in disciplining them more, at dh's invitation, presumably it would be his form of discipline rather than yours? This makes you subject to his will even more. At the moment, you are in a way defying his kingship as you are not acquiescing, let alone participating, in his decrees as to how things should be, what he wants is for you to prove your are his loyal subject by doing as he does, this shows you will suspecd your judgement even as far as that. Then he'll have you all well under control and know he has a lieutenant with whom he can leave his more unruly subjects who will ensure things are done the way he dictates even when he's not there.

What do you think would happen if, in the morning, when he barks out an order which isn't followed immediately, you were to say "you could help you know"?

Leclerc I don't get more involved in the discipline so I don't know what would happen. But that is because (as Jux suggests) he means he wants me to get more involved in carrying out his form of discipline. Which I don't want to do.

The teeth thing. Just, . That is abusive, given how bloody important it is to clean teeth!! The fact that your DC runs to do it and goes to bed upset because he can't means he knows this (I think my dd would just run to bed giggling cos she didn't have to do it !) It's heartbreaking. Imagine what a dentist would think? "Do you clean your teeth every day?" "Well Daddy doesn't let me clean my teeth sometimes."

Not allowed to clean your teeth? FFS! Damn right you should be worried about this. It's a basic health care issue isn't it. I can't imagine this ever being a scenario in our house but if it was i'd be barging in saying "Nope, dd, you are going to clean your teeth RIGHT NOW" and then ask DP what the hell was he thinking.

The teeth-cleaning thing is bonkers! How upsetting and confusing for DC1 Your OH is ensuring that he gets it wrong and fails Daddy no matter what he does. So he faffs a bit, big deal. He then tries to please Daddy and is told he can't do what he's meant to, meaning that the only outcome is that Dc1 has been naughty. It's a mindfuck and, to me, shows that the whole shebang is about OH thowing his weight around and making a small child feel bad just to make OH feel superior and righteous. He's not giving his child a chance to be good, he's ensuring he fails. One could say that DC1 shouldn't faff about in the first place, but he/she is only a child and has to be given some space to get it right! Have you ever considered that Dc1 keeps faffing about because your Oh's approach actively prevents him from learning what to do?! It's just cruel, really cruel.

I do feel angry reading that you feel you can't get involved when he is pulling this sort of shit. What matters more - your child or your fear of confrontation? Sorry if that is too blunt, but it has made me angry. What he did is proper mindfuckery and I actually had my hand over my mouth in shock reading it, it is just so cruel. Your united front should be with your child amd children over stuff like this, not him. And if you know it'd look really bad to a teacher, then you know it is disgusting and unacceptable and shouldn't go on. Him being their parent too is no excuse. He shouldn't be doing it, and no, his behaviour is not your responsibility, but you need to be your Dc's champion, not his appeaser. The sad point is, however, is about not dictating his behaviour to him - even the most mediocre parent would not need to be dictated to about stopping this sort of thing, because it wouldn't even occur to them to be so awful in the first place? Can you imagine sorting out the teethcleaning like that? No? Why not? Because it's disgraceful, isn't it.

Saying he wished you got involved more is just a way of making you feel guilty and cheeky for confronting him about it, in order to close the matter down. As LeClerc details, I bet he would be really affronted if you really insisted on being more proactive. And yes, I also bet that he'd still expect you to do it his way and be too harsh and overly-punitive.

You say he loves talking about them (well, anyone can be a good parent when they're merely talking, can't they? Even paedophiles and murderers could talk wonderfully about children), getting them things and playing with them. In other words, all the easy, fun stuff that benefits HIM and requires no effort, stress or real involvement and connection. A good father does the ordinary stuff, the boring stuff, the gross stuff, the upsetting stuff and the stuff you really don't want to do (like washing toddler puke out of my and DS's hair at 4am last night!) and values that stuff as much as the fun. Any idiot can have a laugh and buy children's affections. He's just doing the things that reap rewards for him; Fun Daddy, Generous Daddy, Sweet Daddy.

And then you say he 'can' be nice with them. Can, indeed. One minute he's buying them a 'don't tell Mummy' treat then the next, telling them they are incapable of being good, enforcing punishments in his absence for things that don't even deserve punishment, playing cruel mindgames that force a child to fail and disappoint. I can't imagine how confusing and damaging that must be for them, I feel like crying. No wonder they appear to adore him - if your choice is being humiliated and actively forced to lose and be naughty or play along when Daddy feels like boosting his ego by being fun, then hell yes, who wouldn't always appear adoring?! I would.

And him not wanting any harm to come to them does not automatically mean he isn't treating them badly regardless. More obvious abusers, who beat, scream at or molest their children don't actually want harm to come to them, and talk lovingly about them, buy them things and play with them nicely too, you know.

None of this is trying to say you are responsible for his actions, btw. But you are responsible for needing to talk with him over not damaging them this way.

PS, you are the SAHM, why on earth aren't you allowed to decide on the discipline? What do you mean, you'd have to do it his way?! Again, more control, more abuse, more undermining, more infatilisation of you.

Why not ask him instead to get more involved in the process rather than just the discipline?

Ask him to help getting the children ready in the morning - using games and not threats, eg, "I bet you can't get your coat before I've counted to 10" or "Which of you can get dressed the quickest?"

Sit down and talk with him (away from the kids) about the sorts of "discipline" you would like. His reaction might be quite illuminating

Telling you he would like you to get more involved in the discipline is another mindfuck. He knows he has that turf in his possession and that he is not willing to let go of any of the power. What he is telling you when he invites you to get more involved is that you are an inadequate parent whose approach does not constitute discipline (in contrast to his).

There is also in that sort of remark a 'poor me shouldering the entire burden here' element.

The teeth cleaning thing is calculated to induce shame in your child, who must go to bed with unclean teeth and then wake up with foul breath, plus your H is running the risk of allowing the DC's teeth decaying. To willfully create poor health of any kind in a child is physical abuse, and there is emotional abuse here too as Oxford has described.

It is a terribly vicious vicious form of abuse because it involves something the child should be allowed to do to his own body part but is being forbidden. He is instead being forced to let that part remain unclean. Your H is doing to your child what he wants to do to you -- taking away control over what happens to his own body.

What is confusing to children is that they know innately that all of this is wrong but apparently there is a united front presenting it as normal. They do not live in a bubble. They get out and they know other children do not live like this.

What you have described as his love for them is his love for how they reflect well on him and how nice it makes him feel inside when he plays the part of magnanimous dad and they smile. The real fun for him comes in the fact that this is the other side of the coin (where he tells them they are useless, etc).

GettingBig you have come a long way, but I am utterly gosmacked at your defence of your H's parenting skills when it involves verbally humiliating your children, inconsistent and harsh parenting, and physical abuse by preventing the more basic health needs from being met as a form of punishment.

I know that you acquiesce to his every whim at the moment out of fear, but you have GOT to start re-evaluating his relationship with your children and seeing it for what it is.

He invites you to be more involved in discipline knowing that there will be either one of two outcomes: (a) you will refuse as you don't agree with his methods. He therefore still has it as a stick with which to beat you and for forwarding his agenda: eg "I wish you would take on more of this burden, do I have to do everything around here?", as well as still having his own way in terms of controlling "disciplining" the DC, OR (b) you will try to appease him by taking on the discipline and adopting his methods and practices, in which case you're yet another child in the house to do as he bids.

You say he can be nice with the children. Yes, when it comes to the fun playtime. Who doesn't enjoy that? Friends we see twice a year behave like that with our DS, but if they spent a little longer with him, they'd realise it's not all cute phrases and funny faces. It's hard work. Your H wouldn't know the first thing about that except from watcing you do it all as he has totally and utterly absented himself from the reality of parenting. It's tough. It requires commitment 24/7. It's not a part time job.

Some posters have asked the same question, but I'm going to ask again, and I hope you decide to answer. What do you think would happen if you sat your H down after the DC were in bed and addressed the fact that you disagree fundamentally with they way he discipline's his children?

your NSDH is depriving child of its rights, and in the process causing humiliation and encouraging disregard/disrespect for self, yes and the confusion.

very brave GB to share your situation so candidly. I hope it is helping you to feel good about the good you do for your DC and a way to keep doing that despite his sabotaging.

As for feeling that you can not dictate to him how he disciplines his children - so how come he gets to do it to you? It's back to good old fashioned sexism again.

OP, you are doing a good job of surviving in a difficult environment. You are a loving and supportive mother, and we are not attacking you. You, if you're anything like me, have not trusted your own judgement because h is erasing it and replacing it with his own pronouncements. We are presenting you with a different perspective on what goes on in your house, so that you can re-evaluate it. Don't think you have to take all this in straight away; I have found that I need to think it through, argue the points I don't see, watch more what h does and think it through again; clarity comes eventually and I am then sure what I think (at least half the time!).

Be kind to yourself while this process is happening, and don't listen to the voices inside you which may say that we're telling you you're a terrible mum/woman. You are not.