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Is he a freeloader?(54 Posts)
Ok, long story short. Im divorced, was in a DV relationship. Ended it. Got divorced. Have a 7 year old daughter. All good in my mind. Met a lovely man about 2 years after divorce. I have a very good job with a good salary. Paying mortgage on my own house in lovely area. After 2 years met another man. He was also divorced. He had been married 18+ years and wife says she didnt love him anymore. No kids on his side. He is kind, gentle, funny, considerate. After 1 year of him staying with me for weekends, we decide to have a go at living together. Financial facts on him are, he has
savings of about £50k plus another £50k tied up in property. He has own business but it not doing very well with the result being i earn about 3 times what he earns. When we discussed the financial side of living together I was concerned that should the relationship not work out, I didnt want anyone to make a claim on my home. (After my marriage ended, I had to remortgage to buy ex h out of home.) New partner assured me this wont happen. At the minute we is share the bills equally. But he doesnt contribute anything to mortgage. This was at his suggestion. Im thinking the reason for this was because I made it clear it was my house... The idea is in the long term should things really work out in a 2-3 years, when my daughter finishes school we would buy a house together. Thing is its starting to niggle me that he gets 2-3 years of mortgage free life while im working my ass off to pay my mortgage... while he lives in my house and saves his money... Im also finding that when theres a bill to be paid I have to remind him about 5/6 times about it. He is forgetful but its pissing me off.. So i suggested he set up a direct bank payment to mine which he eventually did but my big gripe is that he maybe thinks hey this is great Im saving my money and living rent free... Then i honestly ask myself if the situ was reversed and i lived in his house I would abso-fucking-lutley have to make a payment for the fact that i lived there...
Hi Brenboo - I think I understand where you're coming from. knowing where you stand financially in a relationship is very important, and the clearer it is the better, it's a good base. There is nothing wrong with clarity around finances. Once you agree where you are you can concentrate on other things. Each relationship will have a different arrangement. You need to find the one that suits both of you.
As an example, this is my situation: my partner moved in with me almost 3 years ago, in the flat that I owned and I decided that because it was my property, I would not ask him to pay for the mortgage. He was divorced when we moved in together and his financial situation was not the best at all. Of course, I love him for all that he is and obviously not his money. He had quite some debts coming out of his divorce, plus even though he had to give up his ownership in the house that he owned with his ex, she has not released him from the mortgage, and the mortgage company doesn't want to either (long story, he was the main earner, she worked only some hours but demonstrated that with the benefits etc, she was able to keep up the repayments. She had a new partner moving in almost straight away and he is probably contributing. My partner doesn't pay any of the mortgage since the divorce). I am currently earning more that my partner. It was very difficult at first to talk finances together, but eventually, we did. This was important for me, because like you it was bugging me a bit as to where we stood. I also worked very hard over the years to secure a property and reach a certain level of financial independance that I want to preserve for myself.
Anyway, I am now pregnant with our first child and we moved to another property with an extra bedroom, which I have bought in my sole name with my own savings as a deposit. His financial situation did not allow him to put in any deposit towards it. However, our financial arrangements are:
Me: mortgage payments
Him: all the bills, all the shopping, he pays 9 times out of 10 when we go out eating, to the cinema etc, we only have one car, and he pays for all the things related to the car (even the insurance where my name features).
He has been forgetfull about bills and certain payments in the past, but I realise knowing him better now that it's just the way he is, and he was not being malicious, just not as organised as I am financially.
We tried the direct debit option with a payment to my account, but that meant him being more organised and didn't really work for us. At the end, what worked is that he took responsibility for the bills ie calling the companies and organising paying from his own account. We do try to have a 'financial meeting' every so often to discuss our financial targets (like saving for the summer holiday, xmas expenses, pensions for our future etc.).
It's not the easiest of subjects in a relationship, but it's essential to talk about finances. I don't believe in contributing 50/50 unless both parties are on the same level financially. I think it's about contributing proportionally, with what each party can.
Our next step are wills.... as we are having a child together, if anything was to happen to me, I would like that he would be able to stay in the property with our child. Also, he has children from his previous relationship and we need to balance everything.
I believe we are together for the long term, and because we are not married yet, we have already sorted out certain things for the events of one's death, for example, we are beneficiary on each other's pensions and work life insurance.
My personal advice: get him to sit down to express what you are comfortable/uncomfortable with. Ask him how he sees your financial arrangements now and going forward. And see how you can build a base from which to operate (for bills payments, for your holidays together etc.).
Good luck, and don't worry, you're not the first one who had those thoughts and wondered. Time will also tell quickly.
Wishing you the best.
Thanks to everyone, theres some really good thoughts here about this. FYI he does pay for half of food, utilities, holidays, santa stuff, repairs in house.. but I do think he does have the better end of the deal in the sense that he is living mortgage free/rent free in my house. I think to begin with I was very firm when i said it was my house etc but this was only in the context that I was very protective of what i had managed to hold onto after my ex-h had moved out. We have said that in a few years time when my DD changes schools we will buy another house and in that sense then the mortgage will be half and half. I expect he will use his cash savings from bank for this... But for the duration I feel that its unfair for him to be rent free.. There is no extra regular contribution for meals out, or special treats as recognition of the fact that he living there on my goodwill... What would bother me most would be that he did have an agenda in this and thought he was onto a winner. I guess the conversation has to be had about a further contribution from him and this way I will get a better idea of his true intentions here..
Sorry, but it doesn't come across in your post that you like him very much. It is more the tone of an exasperated parent dealing with a teenager. Perhaps you need to think about where you really want to see the pair of you going in the future.
It's tricky - I had a relationship 20 years ago where I earned significantly more, and I also had a house in my name. Bf moved in, but I never took money towards the mortgage (I wanted to be sure there could never be a claim on the house), but as I recall, we split the bills in half - pretty much the same situation you have. However, I was never entirely happy that I wasn't being taken for a ride (not maliciously, but exbf would have been quite happy to meander along with me paying).
After we had finished, I went out with someone else who clearly saw me as a cash cow (I wish I had the experience & wisdom then that I have now), and he basically moved in to my house without any discussion. Didn't last long. Anyway, from that point on, I swore to myself that I would only go out with people who earned a similar salary to me. I know it sounds hard-nosed, but I got sick of wondering if someone wanted to be with me because they really liked me, or because they liked my financial situation. My DH still says he was shocked when I came out and asked him how much he earned on our second date .
Anyway, back to you - I think you need to get legal advice. I don't think it is unreasonable for him to pay towards the roof over his head, albeit that it isn't the mortgage, if he can afford to do so. It's not just the cost of the mortgage, it's all the other bills that arise - repairs, upkeep, decor, replacing washing machine etc. But I would be very wary that any contribution could make you vulnerable in the future, hence the need for legal advice.
Of course he should be paying rent.
I don't think the issue is just money.
Do you still love him? How does the thought of being with him when you are 70, seem? What if he becomes ill and needs care? Or what if you become ill and need him to care for you?
Are you still having fun?
Maybe some counselling will help you sort out your thoughts. And help you find out what the real issue is.
Can you afford the present? Or are you skint and he has plenty of money? Do you have different attitudes to money - now is a good time to discuss this (more relationships break down over money than affairs).
going to play Devils advocate here, but does he KNOW you are unhappy. after all, he has done everything you asked (though of course previously you did have to nag him)
He didnt pay any rent/mortgage because you said you didnt want him to have any claim on your property (in hindsight this was your mistake, and a rental amount should have been discussed)
He only earns a 1/3rd of what you earn, and yet he pays 50% of all outgoings. When he was needing reminding about bills he happily set up a direct debit.
Does your mortgage come to more than 2/3rds of your income - ie once the mortgage has been paid are you on equal amounts to justify the 50:50 split - do you have the same amount of 'spare' money each month.
You seem to want him to dip into his savings, and are those not the same as your house - HIS investment/assets from before he met you? His safety net incase it all goes tits up? He is apparantly willing to invest that £50 grand in a joint property in a couple of years - do you think he will, or is that just a worm to hook the fish? Has he proven genuine previously. If he starts eating into his savings now you realise that there will be less cash deposit.
Ultimately I think its to do with what money is 'left over' at the end of the month, and whether it is just about equal - this seems to be the rule of thumb on MN when it comes to sorting out joint finances. If the bills etc have gone up, then his contribution is going up, same as everyone, the cost of living has risen. But if yo are left with nothing at the end of the month and he is adding to his savings account, then yes, this needs addressing.
Nettletea, thank you. Yes you are right I made it clear i didnt want him to have a claim on the property and in hindsight it was my error, so i need to address this. He has indicated that his savings are for the house/future plus he has a rental property and has said this will be a pension for both of us.. Im not sure how genuine this is.. Yes he did set up a DD but it took him 3 months to do this.. I have to be totally self sufficient as i have no family or anyone to rely on. At the end of the month I am ok for money but this is because I work my ass off to provide a home for my DD and to provide for her needs.. When his marriage ended he started to build a property that is half built but it all went tits up when the market dived and he couldnt get a mortgage to fund the rest of the build. So he was forced to go stay with family and it was driving him crazy.. I think he only takes about £700 a month as an income from his business and if he had to buy a house wouldnt get a mortgage and doubt he could afford to rent anywhere..
So he was staying with me half the week for a full year before we moved in and i basically had to remind him constantly that I was providing food and heat for the time he was here and that caused some tension. So he then started to pay for things and said he was just forgetful.
It all boils down to the fact is he not making a contribution to living here and is it due to the fact that I was very clear about it being my house ?(I was protecting myself)
Or is it because he doesn't think he should pay as its not 'his house'? Wasnt it just a blessing that he met me and that solved his accommodation problems..
So the site with the half built house has a potential buyer and i asked him what he would do with the funds if it went through and he said Id either bank it or invest in another property??
So the site with the half built house has a potential buyer and i asked him what he would do with the funds if it went through and he said Id either bank it or invest in another property??
I am not sure I understand this comment. Are you saying that he should be instead putting the money towards your house, even though you said you don't want him too?
Is the 'another property' he talks of the one that he wants to buy together with you?
If he has property bought before he met you, isn't he equally entitled to retain the money he makes on selling it rather than sharing it with you, just like you want to retain ownership of your house and not give part of it away to him. It seems like you are saying that you want to keep your property for yourself, but expect him to use his funds from his property to contribute rent. Rent which you said you did not want. Surely if he pays you regular rent then it could be argued that he has contributed to the household expenses and could make a partial claim on your home anyway?
If he sold his property, would it raise enough for him to use as a deposit on a home for himself? In which case then paying rent to you instead of a mortgage means he is losing the opportunity to own his own property, and he would presumably build up equity on this property in the next few years, again if he were not living with you.
I thiink that there are some issues that you need to discuss, but I think you need to look at it from his POV as well. You could end the relationship tomorrow and chuck him out, he has no security in that respact.
An appointment with a solicitor to discuss the legalities of it, then a long chat with him, are in order.
Personally, as posters upthread have mentioned, I do not get any sense that you actually are in love with this man. Maybe that is really the issue here!
Maybe he's not looking at it from the point of view as to whether he is better off or not, but whether you are better or worse off. After all, if you wouldn't get a lodger anyway, you wouldn't ever have the extra money from someone else living in your house. So financially, by having him share all the bills you are already better off than you would be living alone.
I'm not saying what he's doing is right, but perhaps he's not really being a freeloader and you might need to have a discussion together as to how to make it financially fair on both of you.
Have all your bills doubled since he moved in?
Your council tax would have had 25% discount as a single adult? So if he pays 50% of that then your reduction is actually more paying 50% rather than the 75% you were paying.
If he is paying 50% of all bills then he is paying 50% towards the upkeep of your DD.
I don't know how much your DD costs probably peanuts compared to my DS (11) who leaves every light on, would rather be naked and have the heating up, complete change of clothes every day even if only worn for 2 hours due to prefering to be naked!, PC on 24 hours a day, runs the bath until it is completely cold etc. But it does mean he is paying more than he would just as a 50/50 split between two of you (although still far less than if he was alone).
What about meals, trips out or holidays?
Have you taken all payments into consideration?
I hope that all makes sense.
I don't like the idea of having to chase him up though. That would get my back right up.
OP said all meals out and holidays were split 50:50 - so yes, he is supporting DD in his payments, which I think is pretty gracious.
Im interested to know what % of OPs wages are mortgage before I can judge whether its unreasonable or not. And what % of his £700 he spends on paying 50% of all bills and running costs.
On £700 he probably wouldnt be alble to get a mortgage, but he might be entitled to housing benefit. also his bills would probably be less on a small place with just him in, than your place. Do you think he COULD draw more from his business, or is that all he reasonably can without going bust?
Do you get maintanance from DDs dad, and does that count in to your 50%
Do you regularly go through the bills, so that you know that the prices of things have gone up and his contribution has increased accordingly, or are things a bit tight atm and thats why you are thinking he should be giving you more.
OP commented that she wanted him to treat her to more things to make up for the fact he is living rent free. I think that might have more significance than anything.
Even before I got to nettletea's post I have to say alarm bells were not ringing for me - and I reckon I'm actually pretty cynical.
So in short I agree with everything nettletea has said - you made it perfectly plain that you were not interested in him contributing to your house, it appears he makes a decent contribution in terms of the 50/50 split, especially when your DD is factored in.
If things have now changed and you do want a more formal relationship with some sort of shared finances there is no shame in sitting down and saying things have moved on/your opinion has changed.
He's paying half of Santa for your kids and half of the repairs to your house, and you think he's a freeloader?
Of course he doesn't pay rent. He's not a lodger, he's your partner.
Lodgers don't buy half your children's Christmas presents or a single penny towards repairs to the house the live in.
You seem to want this both ways.
Would you really be happy to profit off him by taking his money for a property he has no stake in while you accept his money for your children's presents, despite him earning a third of what you do?
If there's a freeloader in this relationship, it's not him.
I'm amazed at the comments you've received.
I guess men are still expected to provide.
nettletea, id say that 40% of my salary is on mortgage. then i have normal household bills and food etc. maint from DD dad is not regularly paid to me . From his £700 id say he is paying £100 pcm to me for utilities.. For repairs to house and santa stuff , holidays I pay two thirds of everything, he pays 1/3. I pay all the childcare costs in full..
What does he contribute to your life other than money? Does he do his share of domestic work? Is he pleasant company? Are the two of you happy with each other sexually?
I think you should have a chat with a solicitor so you actually know what your legal position is, and what's the best way to keep yourself financially sorted without either you or this man being disadvantaged or unfair to each other, however, as everyone else has said, you sound more resentful of him than in love with him.
Is there something else bothering you about this relationship?
My response was more to do with the fact that he appears to need reminding to contribute his fair share 5 or 6 times
So is your mortgage £900 a month?
How much is childcare / school fees?
Do you both run cars?
What does he spend his remaining £600 on?
Brenboo quite a lot of food for thought on this thread. Have you had any further discussions?
So you don't want any claim making on your home, but expect him to pay towards the mortgage? Is that right?
He's not a lodger - he's your partner. He's not there to pay rent. I can understand the niggle about being late with bills but that's a separate issue. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable being asked by a partner to contribute to the mortgage, whilst having no stake in the house at all. That sounds like a very strange request to me.
Not having a go, just asking to see if I'm reading it right?
Sorry, re reading this page my comment sea to echo what's already been said. My bad
Threaders, but should he then live rent free? A guest shouldn't pay, but he's not a guest, is he? He treats it as his home but he doesn't pay towards it.
I can absolutely understand the OP wanting to keep her house for herself. That doesn't mean he can stay there for nothing, though, does it?
Interesting views on this, I am a bit intrigued by the majority opinion that he must pay the rent. I am interested to know what will be your opinion if the roles are flipped in this case i.e. the op is the one to move in with her new partner who owns the house and he asks her to pay the rent and gets her sign a 'declaration of trust'. I am genuinely interested to know this.
As far as my opinion is concerned, I completely agree with curlyblackhair on this, not saying others are wrong though.
IB - he's not living rent free though is he. He's contributing towards the upkeep of the house, bills, food etc. he's not contributing to the mortgage because the OP wants the house to be completely her own. Which is fair enough, but I can't see how that then means he should pay towards the bricks and mortar, the cost of which remains the same whether the partner lives there it not.
If I moved in with a man who was determined to keep my tiny mitts off his property and assets, then charged me rent while accepting services inc. unpaid childcare for his children, I'd point out nannies are usually the ones that get paid, not pay their employers, as I slipped away.
It sounds to me like you want your cake, eat it, then give it to your daughter.
At some stage if the rel lasts, you will have to share finances with an open heart. Do both you and DP a favour and decide if he's the one for you soonest.
If you need a richer boyfriend, get one - there's no crime in making 'better off than me' a deal-breaker, altho yr choice may be limited. Otherwise, you get to take the rough with the smooth.