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not ok to shake our son...

(135 Posts)
DippyDoohdah Mon 15-Oct-12 22:42:36

my estranged Dh and I have been trying to have some family time before divorce finalised, to make sure w are doing right thing/see if can come back together.long story but includes me feeling very strongly that is too heavy handed with 2 and 4 year old ds..4 year old showing some autistic tendencies.anyway...
yesterday, 2 year old (soon 3) did something minor and Dh told him to say sorry..ds refused a couple of times..Dh got very angry that he was being defied and grabbed ds, raised him in the air in front of him and shook him two or three times, shouting, until ds burst into tears.Dh thinks they need a firm hand.he came to pick them up for nursery this morning and eldest was playing up about not wanting to go out..Dh frog matched him to door, shouting and ds was cowering and trekking me did not want to go..Dh pulled them both out and they both left in tears.
they can be challenging, extremely bright and loving.
I just need a bit if affirmation that this is not ok, no matter how many nice bits can come unbeaten..

madda Tue 16-Oct-12 19:43:42

oh dippy, your DS sounds adorable

do have a quiet evening to yourself, get some food, rest up.

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 19:46:45

thanks sir boob, madda. madda..er..yes he would treat a collegue like that. Held a knife to his throat or strangled him, unbelievably cannot remember which. too many stories from him. no police involvement, thats not how he and his (cash in hand and bit dodgy) colleagues do it.
Know that is even worse and I do take your point, obviously!!does not excuse anything, nada

madda Tue 16-Oct-12 20:01:21

ah ok
then at least you know you are even more validated to get your DCs (and you!) out of there

and if your HV knows he is capable of such behaviour to adults...then surely she can set the wheels in motion?

i dont think you deserve this level of unpredictability in your life. Honestly.

robotsatemywashing Tue 16-Oct-12 21:48:54

Personally I would report him to SS myself. I have had to do this in the past.
My STBXH hit one of our dc round the face, I was suffering some kind of ongoing PTSD (if that makes sense) and blanked it out. I later mentioned it when having counselling, it got referred to SS. SW came round and did an assessment on our family, all fine, case closed.

BUT

Because I work in education I was told that I could lose my job for not reporting it immediately as it calls into question my ability to safeguard children in a professional capacity. SS could ask for a Position Of Trust meeting with me, my employers and the police to discuss my ability to safeguard children in general.

Now I ring SS immediately if the dc's mention anything negative about their dad because I will not lose my career due to his mistakes.

I'm not sure what your role is exactly, in terms of your job, but this may be relevant to you.

DippyDoohdah Tue 16-Oct-12 22:09:19

robots...I thought my manager would have perhaps raised something that, but not at all.and my health visitor is well aware of which partnership agency I work in..again, not an issue.I know, with them, there is some understanding that its harder to see the wood for the trees with your own situation, and that is what I said to the health visitor,I need some outside support and validation.
having heard nothing from stbxh, I can hazard a guess that he thinks am being silly and will contact me at the weekend when he thinks I may have 'calmed down'

sashh Wed 17-Oct-12 06:39:01

Dippy

In your job have you come accross any abused women? The excuses you are making are all the same ones:

He's not always like this
He just lost his temper
He is fantastic at other times

He is an abuser, and you, at the moment, are an enabler.

I grow up witha parent who could be wonderful and in the next breath be vile. I lived my childhood in terror because I never knew when the bad side would arrive.

Please, for your children, stop contact.

robotsatemywashing Wed 17-Oct-12 09:01:31

I think that your manager and HV are under-reacting. They have a duty of care and should be referring all concerns, not deciding what info to pass on, to SS.

If I was you, I would cover my back and ring SS myself. And I would not be letting him have unsupervised contact with the children either.

How have things been today, Dippy?
I've been thinking about you.

Twimpo Wed 17-Oct-12 22:27:04

Absolutely unacceptable, I would have knocked my husband out if he had done that to one of my kids.

ThingsThatGoBumpInTheNight Thu 18-Oct-12 03:13:55

Absolutely unacceptable, I would have knocked my husband out if he had done that to one of my kids.

^^ Same here

Sorry you're going through this, dippy

I would give SS a call and ask their advice. x

DippyDoohdah Thu 18-Oct-12 15:41:51

thanks.spoke to health visitor again and agreed that ss really would not take this on where I live.some of u ladies may think am underplaying butI do know what their caseloads consist of. she suggested that I write a contract for him to understand and agree to regarding treatment of children and contact.I did and approached it gently.he accepts his behaviour was completely unacceptable and looks like a worn and ill man who knows things are slipping away.not asking for your sympathy there, just stating a fact.
am meeting with h v next week again as she wants to know more, basically that I am being protective, which I am.he now knows that any further shouting, touching when angry, can lead to stopping contact. I have not broached issue of up coming decree nisi yet as that will to him over the edge and I don't want that for anyone, especially the boys

cestlavielife Thu 18-Oct-12 16:03:50

what will happen when he tips over the edge?
what will you do to protect the dc?
you cant control his reaction.

DippyDoohdah Thu 18-Oct-12 22:08:47

of course I know I can't control his reaction but I tell him when the boys are not there.its me he will be angry with, but I think he is becoming more resigned to our split

DippyDoohdah Thu 18-Oct-12 22:10:47

when I say I don't want that for the boys,I mean the fall out or him not seeing them for a while, confusing them...

Sioda Thu 18-Oct-12 22:48:55

A contract? Seriously?! Between an abused partner and a violent thug. So the plan is to rely on your 4 year old to report breaches of it to you? Why are you taking advice from a HV anyway? And talking about parenting courses? He's a violent criminal who tried to kill someone. It's a little beyond HV's and parenting courses. Your HV may be very nice and supportive but she's also just not very good. He will continue to do whatever the hell he wants to your children when he's alone with them. That's why he won't accept supervised contact. Of course he says his behaviour was unacceptable - he's not stupid, he'll say what he needs to say to keep contact. Do you really think that that's all it takes for someone to stop being violent and abusive? That they just wake up one day, admit they've been naughty and decide to stop?

You know he's violent to your children, you know they're frightened of him. That's all you need to know. Yet you continue to fail to protect them. They're not confused and if they were I dare say they'd choose confusion over intimidation if they had a choice. They don't need family time with this man. No father is far better than a violent and frightening one. They need you to protect them. Not hide behind what some random HV tells you to do. Surely what you need is a counsellor to help you get past the abuse you've been subjected to by this man, to help you to trust your own judgement again, stop looking for outside validation, stop focusing on him and what he might do, and assert yourself. Please branch out from this daft HV business for your kids' sakes if nothing else.

DippyDoohdah Thu 18-Oct-12 23:03:26

I am seeing a counsellor and have had long session with her today.again, she can see the complexities. I will sound like I am making excuses but the incident with his colleague was an incident, was not towards children and he did not try and kill him, it was their awful macho 'way' where they come from..still utterly demonstrative of his values though.
in child protection cases, parents sign contracts and they are no more legally binding.and am not relying on my sons to tell me, as I will be there at contact until I see fit/he disappears...which I think he will.at present, stbxh has a good legal aid solicitor, and if I am not careful around contact now, she willhave the boys spending whole weekends with him. I have spoken to three different solicitors about him and some of these past incidents.it is here day and I cannot prove it and say it will not be enough. I am posting for support and have had some good ideas and help but please can some people stop being so quick to judge me as not protecting my children.judging without all the facts is not fair judgement.

Mumsyblouse Thu 18-Oct-12 23:31:27

Dippy, I do remember your back-story. I'm not going to repeat it here, it's just awful. I feel very sad that you are still with this man, or at least, still playing happy families in the hopes that it all turns out well. I'm even sadder that his aggressive behaviour (which has been mainfest in every country in which he has lived, in every context) is now coming into your children's lives. This is not surprising, you know what kind of man he is and you need to get him the hell out of yours and your children's lives.

The threat is if you are not there, he won't see the children. Great, this is the best outcome for everyone. Stop saying he's a good dad some of the time, again, I don't intend to list the reasons he's not dad of the year, but he isn't, he just isn't and you do know this deep down.

I don't think people are being quick to judge, more trying to encourage you to continue down the path of divorce and moving him out of your lives, and not to continue to make excuses for him (of course, he's ill and sad now you have called him to account, I'm sure he wasn't when picking up his own child and shaking him). I know you feel sorry for him, I know you loved him once/still do perhaps, but you have to get away for your own sanity and your children's safety. Nothing you have said makes me think this is going to be a one-off, he's moving from the older one to the younger, please protect them.

I suspect unfortunately that your colleagues see the professional you (which is a great side) and are reacting to stereotypes about other professionals which is leading them to miss the abuse and seriousness of the situation you are in. No amount of happy days out will make up for these awful experiences, something like that plants itself indelibly in your mind.

YOu don't need SS to protect your children, this is just a measure of how scared you are that you prefer the authorities to step in and make a child protection plan rather than you set down boundaries with your husband. You are terrified about him finding out that your happy family is actually getting a decree nisi very soon. If I were you, I would call a halt to this fantasy now and ring Women's Aid and get some more concrete advice on how to protect yourself and your children when he finds out what is going to happen.

Sioda Thu 18-Oct-12 23:35:31

Sorry I didn't realize you were present during all contact with him. From your previous posts it sounded like he was having unsupervised contact. As far as your evidence problem goes, have any of the solicitors suggested getting a report from a child psychologist? It's extremely expensive and I don't know if it's covered by some kind of legal aid but it would be really helpful here. In fact it's the only way to 'prove' the way he behaves with them. Has anyone else observed his behaviour with them? Anyone who could back up your account? Could you engineer a friend or relative to be around to witness it? Even a biased third party is better than none.The health visitor seems to have expressed concerns in the past, has she witnessed or been told anything by him that would help? Any police reports of previous incidents?

It's not hearsay evidence when you go into court and describe the incidents that you've seen. It is your word against his but that's not at all the same thing. When it's your word against his it's simply a matter of who the judge believes. They make judgment calls like that all the time. Your account is likely to be far more plausible than his because you're telling the truth. If you had a child psychologist report backing you up or any third party evidence that would of course really help.

I think you're overestimating the importance of his good solicitor. She can only work with what she has and you seeking to restrict his contact on the basis of his abuse doesn't give her any grounds for getting more contact for him. Of course you need to be careful around contact but you can do that by getting yourself a better solicitor than his and getting evidence together. I wouldn't rely on him leaving the country and you supervising all contact can't be good for you.

DippyDoohdah Fri 19-Oct-12 08:58:11

I will post more later, I don't know what to do.my solicitor is good but has already cost me thousands and I have run out of money.I am not entitled to legal aid.not is he but as he works cash in hand he claims legal aid anyway.so if I block contact, he can take me to court and I will struggle to defend it. I maybe will call womans aid but alot on on next couple of days so not sure when.also a friend of mine had a similar situation minimised by them. I also might go through the thread and write down some of the observations and try to explain to him why its going to be contact supervised by me.I know that's not great for me but my counsellor has helped me work to the point where I do not want him as a partner, but would like the boys to have limited and positive experiences of their father.any negatives, and I will change contact to a centre our stop it.I hate this so much.you would not believe what well adjusted happy boys I have though.
thanks for posting Mumsy, you spoke a lot of sense..yes it is sad and yes I am scared

ThingsThatGoBumpInTheNight Sat 20-Oct-12 00:27:50

This is where family courts go wrong fgs

You have to have money to prevent someone who could harm your kids from having contact whereas he has free legal aid to help him to force you to allow him to see them

Has the CAFCASS Officer (guardian ad litem) not met the children yet and prepared a report??

Surely they should be on your side and their recommendations should reflect that

I don't know if you could get the children their own solicitor to represent their interests, as its private family court and i have not much idea in that area, may be worth checking out

One way or another the children have to be protected against harm

LewisFan Sat 20-Oct-12 00:55:24

Dippy, why not ring the LSCB and ask a hypothetical "would this meet your threshold / be actioned" about your situation? be absolutely honest with the history and updates and see what Social Care say?

Do you know your local Safeguarding office? Ring them - lie, pretend it's someone else...?

I am struggling to see that Social Care would ignore it - it's gone past the CAF and is definitely over the TAC stage.... I really can't see how they would ignore what you've put here. Your son has been assaulted and is constantly emotionally abused. That is damaging, as is witnessing your distress and suffering abuse too...

Just try a referral. At least try...? I know the form is long and painful (also work in the sector) but at least you could say to your boys "I tried..."

hebetrayedme Sat 20-Oct-12 19:38:08

You know it's not ok. He could seriously hurt your child, and certainly emotionally damage him.

DippyDoohdah Sun 21-Oct-12 09:20:50

I am thinking that I could say to him that I am to finalise the divorce because of all the past with the two of us, all the extreme behaviours hr has told me of his past/incidents since have known him and because of the issues with him and the boys. I will day that because of all of that I will have to be st contact, unless he wants it to be my parents or a contact centre. if he threatens his solicitor then I can say I will take it to ss, which I would. I reiterate, I work with ss and know situations that would horrify you where the children still not removed

Badvoc Sun 21-Oct-12 09:25:57

You are enabling this man to physically hurt your children.
Now think about the excuses you will give e children they are older, or to their partners who they abuse thinking its ok?
Ffs....

DippyDoohdah Sun 21-Oct-12 14:17:55

where us it written that swearing at people is supportive. not helpful in any way.it was once and I am being present when they see him, why have you got such an issue with that- bad voc? I do not intend to let there be a repeat incident

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