Argh my mother! Going back to familiar patterns.

[UnbridledPositivity]

I don't really have anyone else I can vent to, so I hope that writing it down here will help.

My mother lives abroad and visits a few times a year. I thought her most recent visit a couple of weeks ago had gone exceptionally well, she really seemed to take on board some things I found important -

Backstory: she could probably be described as toxic: she didn't show emotions throughout my childhood, no hugs, kisses or telling me she loved me (ever), very controlling (still is), not allowing any emotions (positive or negative), generally vilifying me (I was the bad one, my younger sister is the golden child). I went no contact for three years, but got back in touch since DD was born three years ago and she has been visiting regularly since.

Now that DD is big enough to have her own opinions, my mother has been interfering every time she's here, things like telling her to put her shoes on etc. when I'd already asked DD to do that and was trying to avoid a tantrum by using a gentle and positive approach. They are always simple things, but they are things that are my job as DD's mum, and my mother kept getting involved and making things so much more stressful for DD than they had to be. So I had a gentle word with her and asked her to let me organise DD and reminded her that she was simply there for the fun things. During her past visit this went really well. Or so I thought.

But I should have known that it couldn't be that simple. I just had an email from her telling me that she found my aggression really hurtful. Aggression? What aggression?! Because this kind of emotional thing is difficult to discuss via email, I rang her to talk about it and sort it out. It seems she was very upset (didn't show it or mention it at the time) when I reminded her (gently!) that looking after DD was my job when she suggested changing her wet clothes when we were at the beach. Just in case you think I made DD stay in wet clothes for hours on a cold windy beach: I had taken several spare outfits for DD, but she kept getting soggy, so eventually when there was only one jumper and one pair of trousers left, I decided to keep those for the way home as I thought that was important. So I clearly thought about how to make sure DD would be ok. This wasn't good enough for my mother who kept pestering me to change her.

My mother has always told me that I am aggressive, and apparently that's how I came across to her during her visit. She described in great detail how I looked when I talked to her (apparently my eyes were looking aggressive and I was boiling inside, according to her). The thing is, I was perhaps feeling a bit annoyed at her, and disappointed that she still could not understand that it was important to me to look after DD in my way, but as I know she'll call me aggressive at the slightest hint of disagreement, I always make an effort to be as calm as possible with her, just so she can't use my 'aggression' to ignore the actual point I'm trying to make.

She says that she thinks I'm doing a good job with DD, and I think I do reasonably well by my own standards. But at the same time she still finds it important to tell me how to look after her. She seems unable to accept that when I do something or don't do something it's because I have thought about it and decided it would be the best course of action. I try to explain my thought processes and priorities to her, but she never listens and just keeps repeating herself that e.g. she was so worried DD would get pneumonia (in August!) that she just had to say something and take the risk of pissing me off. To me that just suggests that she thinks I'm a monster who would rather shout at her mother (I didn't!) than look after her daughter properly.

We regularly had this kind of disagreement throughout my childhood, with her calling me aggressive and getting 'upset' and me calmly trying to explain that my opinion simply differed from hers. It seems as if she goes into these moods where she can't take any disagreement and finds fault with every aspect of my behaviour and appearance. Even if I wasn't actually aggressive in the first place, her detailed descriptions of how I 'narrowed my eyes' because I 'felt so angry' and how aggressive the tone of my voice was (when I was actually trying to be jokey to make light of an annoying situation for DD's sake) are enough to make sure I am angry by the end of the conversation. Ironic!!

I try breaking this pattern by praising what I appreciate about her, speaking in a calm low voice, explaining how I actually felt, what the reasons for my opinions were and trying to build a wall around myself so I don't end up feeling how I did as a teenager when I had to live with this evaluation of my personality every day. I live in a different country and keep contact minimal.

How do I get out of this cycle of getting upset because she calls me aggressive? How do I stop being affected by her mood? How do I make her see me as a nice person who is entitled to her own opinions?

The ironic thing is that she has been in counselling for two years and reads tons of self-help books on how to talk about feelings. Ridiculous!

[BumptiousandBustly]

I am sorry to hear you are having such a hard time with your mother. I actually don't think there is anything you can do to make her listen to you, and accept your point of view.

You have to decide if its worth maintaining a relationship with her, and on what basis.

I decided it wasn't worth contiuing the relationship with mine - and actually (once through the fear, obligation guilt etc) I feel better for it.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"How do I get out of this cycle..."

Imagine she is a random old lady that came up to you in the street saying all these things. You'd be quite surprised and shocked that anyone would be so rude and offensive. You might even be upset briefly. But you'd probably end up dismissing this random woman as a bit bonkers, tell her to shut up and walk right on by. And that's how you handle her. Not as 'your mother' with all the importance and history weighing the word around your neck ... but as a grumpy, slightly mad, lonely old woman who deserves nothing but pity and contempt.

You cannot make her see you as a nice person so don't even try. If she thinks speaking in a calm, low voice is aggressive, don't hold back next time :)

[janelikesjam]

How ironic about the counselling, I agree .

I agree also with Bumptious, you may be limited as to how much you can do, realistically, as this has been going on for years and it sounds like you have made as much progress in getting her to "change" as you probably will ever be able.

If you only see her a few times a year, at least you are restricting contact there, and you could even make them shorter. How about tailing off email and phone contact gradually to something that suits you (once a week, once a month, whatever?) Avoiding subjects is another method, keeping clear boundaries, keeping physically out of the way, distractions, ignoring are other possibilities, in a way building a wall around yourself, as you say for protection.

[UnbridledPositivity]

Thanks for reminding me of the 'fear, obligation, guilt', that is definitely how I've been feeling.

It might work to treat hear like a random little old lady. The problem is that she is sometimes ok, and then I get complacent and feel guilty when I keep my defences up.

She phones me once a week without fail. Perhaps it's time to be a bit shorter on the phone and not tell her any personal things.

I do wonder what's going on with her. Several members of her family have had dementia/Alzheimer's. Can it start as early as late 50s? She still works in a demanding job with lots of people around her, but the way she zones out of conversations or starts a conversation halfway through her train of thought has made me wonder about this. She often refers to people as 'she/he' without actually mentioning who she is talking about first. Is this a symptom of anything? She eats a very restricted diet (no meat, dairy or many carbohydrates, without medical advice), I wonder if that can lead to this kind of behaviour.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Alzheimer's can strike at any age. Disordered eating and the malnutrition that results can lead to psychological problems e.g.Jamie Oliver showed how malnourished schoolchildren struggle to concentrate and can exhibit behavioural problems.

[RabidAnchovy]

Stop contact with her

[ivykaty44]

You care how your mother see's you and you are seeking her approval.

Stop worrying abut what your mother thinks of your mothering, you have different ways of doing things (thankfully) and will give your own dd cuddles, love and kisses which is something your own mother didn't do - so think about it - why would you want your mothers approval this was the mother that didn't show affection.

Just say mother we have different ideas so lets leave it before I get aggressive and then things will stay nice. Keep saying it and don't say other things

That way instead of telling her in detail why you choose to do something your way. You are doing it your way without having to justify yourself, you don't need to justify yourself to anyone.

Plus she then can't accuse you of being aggressive without you saying well I did warn you several times you provoked me

[Badgerina]

I personally don't agree with the idea that you need to modify your behaviour in order to change the way your mother sees you. That doesn't sound healthy at all. In fact all that would achieve in my opinion is to keep you in the pattern you so clearly want to escape from.

Just as you don't need to change to gain your mother's approval, it's important to recognise that you don't need to change in the (vain) hope that it would "make" her react differently to you.

People choose to think a certain way. This in turn influences the way they feel. Following on from that, their feelings impact the way in which they express themselves.

Your mum could have given you the benefit if the doubt. She could have examined whether her own behaviour was entirely reasonable. She could have chosen to have a gentle conversation with you when she was still staying with you. She also could have asked whether she had upset you. In short, she could have lovingly reached out to her daughter and warmly communicated with you about something that was bothering her.

Instead, she emailed you, accusing and blaming you for the way she felt about your interactions. She hasn't taken any responsibility for your interactions.

You sound like a thoughtful, aware person. You don't sound like someone who would be in denial about the way you express yourself. In short, you sound like someone who takes emotional responsibility. Does that sound accurate?

Don't change YOU. Change the way you approach your relationship. Limiting your contact might be the sensible option.

[UnbridledPositivity]

Yes, I've been thinking about how I could change my behaviour, but the goalposts really do always change. I thought mentioning the things I appreciate about her couldn't be wrong, but she found a way of turning everything into a negative that was all my fault. Can't win with her.

I think I can only manage her rather than expect a normal relationship. I'd forgotten about this when I thought the visit had gone surprisingly well. Time to have some concrete boundaries!!

[UnbridledPositivity]

Apparently the last time my mother had a bloodtest everything was within the normal range, but I have no idea what was checked. She is extremely regimented about food and constantly talks about people's weight, another reason to limit contact as I feel like a fat oaf when she does this (she doesn't comment on my weight except when she thinks I'm skinny, but she equates weight loss and diet restrictions with willpower/discipline).

[TheWonderfulFanny]

Well it sounds like you can only get on with your mother when you're actively parenting her, and taking responsibility for her actions and reactions. Is it worth it?

[Mayisout]

If you think DD has her own opinions at 3 you probably aint seen nothing yet.

You probably bridle at DMs 'advice' due to past experience and she sees this as aggression, it's prob a response to previous unfair treatment, but once DD's life is busier and she is older and you are more confident (after seeing your success in parenting) DM's comments will have less effect.

[UnbridledPositivity]

It's not so much what she is saying as the fact that she gets involved makes the whole situation at the time stressful - two people badgering DD instead of just me dealing with things in the way we usually do. Added to this is the fact that my mum thinks she's supporting me by getting involved with DD's things because she says that she has the same opinions as me. My view on this is that she uses phrases and tones which are all to familiar to me from my childhood, and I don't want anyone to speak to DD like that because it used to make me feel horrible.

I can't break off contact because that would be proving her right. Plus she is in DD's life now (in strictly controlled doses, e.g. they are never completely alone together), and DD enjoys spending time with her.

My mother is not getting any more mature about dealing with conflict. If anyone disagrees with her, to her it means they are attacking her (me, her colleagues etc) when there is no attack taking place at all.