10yo dd is now refusing to see my mother

[VivaLeBeaver]

I've posted previously about my problems with mum. Main thread here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1353614-Toxic-bitch-of-a-mother-says-shes-not-setting-foot-in-my-house-again

Ive seen my mum twice since this happened, the first time we met for coffee and dd was there and refused to look or speak to my mum at first. Mum repeatedly asked dd why she was ignoring her and I had to explain that dd was still upset about what had happened. Mum said she was being ridiculous. I think I managed to drag a few words out of dd in the end.

Then I saw mum again at her house on my own.

Told dd earlier that I want us both to go round tomorrow and see her. Dd says there is no way she's going. She started crying and said that grandma had upset her too much and that she's a mad old biddy and she never wants to see her again.

Do I force her to come or accept she has a point and tell my mum that these are the consequences to her actions. Mum still thinks she did nothing wrong btw.

[colditz]

What the hell! No, no you don't make her see the mad bitch!

[michglas]

She scared her own grand-child out of her wits by screaming and swearing while she cleaned her house. That is not acceptable behaviour and I know that DD2 who is also 10, would not be very quick at forgiving. Don't force your DD to see your mum, it will only distress her and maybe cause her to resent you for it.

[ChippingInLovesChristmasLights]

People really really need to read your other thread before posting in reply to this one.

Stand up for your DD. She is in the right.

I actually agree with the posters on the other thread who said you and DD would be better off without your mother and your DH.

It's sad your childhood was so shitty that you feel their behaviour is at all justified :(

[michglas]

I did read the other thread before replying and i would also urge others to do so before replying.

[ChippingInLovesChristmasLights]

Sorry - my first comment was absolutely not aimed at the colditz or michglas who hadn't posted when I started writing. I was just worried people would pile in and tell you to tell your DD to do as she was told and respect her GM having not read your other thread.

[ChippingInLovesChristmasLights]

x-posts again mich!! Definitely not aimed at you!!

[VivaLeBeaver]

Thanks, you're right. Will leave dd at home with dh tomorrow. My mm is just going to have to lump it. She's not going to accept it very well and I know she's going to come out with all crap pseudo psychology about how dd is being a drama queen and looking for attention by acting up, etc.

There's also the issue of dd,s Xmas presents from my mum. They're already here under the tree but I've told dd I don't think it's right to accept presents from someone you're refusing to speak to or see. I've told her to have a think about it.

[colditz]

It's also not nice to demand to spend time with someone you've previously verbally abused, which is what your mother is doing to your daughter.

[Bogeyface]

My main issue with all of this is despite the shitty treatment you get at the hands of your mother and your husband, you are still trying to get your dd to fall in for a quiet life.

Do you want her to have the same life that you have had?

Sorry, I know thats harsh but you are being treated very badly and I dont want you to teach your dd that its ok to take that.

[NunTheWiser]

After reading the previous thread, I have to ask you why you're prepared to excuse your DM and your DH for what is totally unacceptable (and in the case of your mum, extremely dangerous and worrying) behaviour? Why do you think your DD should put up with it? Your DD sounds in a much better place than you and you should follow her lead, frankly.

[stuffthenonsense]

Stand up for your daughter and i totally agree with you about the presents...but try to put it to your DD in a way that doesnt come across as 'see gran or lose pressies'. I m not saying you will put it badly, i know that i always manage to open my mouth and shove both feet in thats all. My mother is a bit like yours and refuses point blank to see that she has done anything wrong, its an absolute nightmare tbh. Merry christmas.

[MrsWembley]

Oh Viva, after having read your thread about your DH fucking off on holiday and now I see this about your DM, I feel awful for you. It is not normal behaviour, from either of them and, like someone has already said, don't you ever wonder how much happier and simpler your life would be with just you and your DD? I know it's a horrible thing to contemplate, especially at this time if year, but please, start thinking if the possibilities.

on your behalf.

[ISayHolmes]

There's no way she should be forced to come with you. There's no reason for it. If your daughter starts crying at the thought of seeing someone who's acted this way then you keep them away from them.

She should not be taught to keep on going near people who are dysfunctional even when her instincts tell her not to.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Your DD is very perceptive.

One generation i.e you has already been profoundly affected by your mother's dysfunctional toxic behaviour and you still want a relationship with her out of perhaps being yourself in FOG - fear, obligation, guilt. This often happens to people who grew up with toxic dysfunctional parents; such adults keep going back for more crap because they still think they (in your case your mother) will change and admit full responsibility for their actions. I tell you now that this will never happen.

It is of no surprise to me either that you married someone who seems very much like your mother too; what on earth did you learn about relationships when growing up?. Damaging lessons that's what and that poisonous legacy continues to this day with your child now seeing it. I would also suggest you have counselling regarding your mother as well.

Do not let another generation i.e your child be so affected; such dysfunctional stuff like your mother pulls often goes down the generations. You have a choice and you are not totally powerless here.

Re the presents from your mother, I would unwrap them and take them all to the charity shop. I would not give your toxic mother such power over your family. Stop visiting her, you owe her nothing and she has and continues to let you down abjectly.

You would not let a friend treat you like this; your mother is truly no different in that regard.

Viva, if you've never read either Toxic Parents or Children of the Self Absorbed I would suggest you do so as well as posting on the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these pages.

[mummytime]

Please go and seek some counselling. I just read the bit about knife throwing on your previous thread, and if you can't see how incredibly un-normal and unhinged that is, then you really need to get your feelings and thought sorted out.
Your DD is right, and my well be quite happy to give the present back rather than see a dangerous old woman.
Please for her sake go and talk to someone outside and trustworthy about all this.

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

you know i think you should respect dd's boundaries. by the sounds of it your mother had no respect for even the most basic of your boundaries and that skews our thinking and makes us put up with all sorts of things and people. dd's boundaries are still intact - she is rightly deciding she doesn't want to spend time with a woman who scared her and who she knows treats her mother like shit.

don't corrode those boundaries - they're healthy. and don't make her give back the presents - that's like saying if people give you things you have to be nice to them even if they are abusive arseholes which doesn't really give her a good foundation for healthy relationships in the future.

maybe your mother made you beholden to her through gifts as a child? your mum chose to send gifts - they don't buy her anything in return.

[Xales]

Agree with the others, you are setting your DD up to accept being treated like shit and thinking that this is what she is worth because you are accepting exactly the same.

You need some counselling or external help to see that none of the way your husband or mother treat you are right or acceptable.

Do you want your DD to be married to a man who fucks off while she is ill or how your mother treats you? If you can't do it for yourself you need to do it for her as she is now being treated this way.

You both deserve better

[HecateGoddessOfTwelfthNight]

viva - genuine questions and not having a go at all. But just asking you to think.

Why do you want to see your mother when she has done all that she has done, treats you like shit and has terrified your daughter?

Why do you accept being treated so badly by people who are supposed to love you when you are a fab person who deserves so much more?

What would be your 'line'? The thing that would make you say "enough. No more."

[VivaLeBeaver]

Hecate, I don't know to be honest what would make me say that enough is enough. She's always treated me like shit, wouldn't talk to me when I was pregnant and wrote me a 6 page letter telling me to have an abortion as I wasn't married, etc.

I do feel sorry for her I suppose and guilty as well. She had a terrible upbringing as my Granmother was even worse. My Gran in turn had been abandoned by her mother as a toddler. So I see what you're saying about it going down the generations. I do think my mother has undiagnosed mental health problems, she seems very bi polar - ticks every bi polar trait going.

I think I feel guilty as when she and my dad split up I was the only person she had. My brother at that point had walked away and hadn't talked to her for years. I was propping my mum up emotionally through the divorce and helping her with advice when buying a new house, etc.

I think what it boils down to is I'm too scared to tell her that that's it and I don't want to talk to her again, scared of the reaction. Someone earlier said about me wanting to keep the peace and I do think thats very true, I'll do anything to avoid confrontation.

I have told dd she doesn't have to see her again and if she wants to keep the presents then thats up to her.

[squeakytoy]

I am going to go a bit against the grain here and say you should take your daughter to see her, if you are going to see her too.

I think that by allowing your daughter to refuse to see your mum, you could be setting a precedent that might impact over the next few years.

I dont think your daughter is wrong to be upset, nor do I think she is being unreasonable in wanting to avoid her grandmother, but if you are going to continue having a relationship with your mum, then I think your daughter also has to try to re-establish one.

If it is a case of bi-polar/ocd/mental health problems, then it isnt totally your mums fault, and I think explaining that to your daughter too would help.

I think your daughter is old enough to learn that we sometimes have to spend time with people who are not nice, who we dont like, and who we would prefer not to be with, but we have to bite our lip, and get over it.

Perhaps put it to your daughter that YOU need a bit of company and support and that she has no need to apologise to her grandmother, but you would like her with you.

[HecateGoddessOfTwelfthNight]

But you don't treat your child this way. Reading between the lines, it's like you are saying that somehow how she is is due to her own upbringing - but if that was true, and she was a victim of it and it's not her fault - then why don't you mistreat your child because of your own upbringing?

I just wish that you didn't feel that you had to take this treatment yourself.

If she does have mental health problems, is it the right thing to do to accept her treatment of you and remaining in her life and letting her 'get away' with it - when that means that she'll probably never get help?

I understand that you're scared. It's a scary thing. But what are you scared of? What is it that you think that she might do that you can't cope with? - by, say, not answering the phone, not reading a letter, calling the police if she shows up on your doorstep?

Confrontation is a scary thing. But living like this is scarier.

I just feel so sorry that you don't see that you are worth so much more than to be treated the way you are. She's really done a number on you.

[RandomMess]

I think your dd has the right idea, I think you at the very least need to issue new strict boundaries around your mother's behaviour towards you and your family. Whenever she starts to be unreasonable get up and leave "Mum you seem in a bad mood so I'll leave you to it"

[HecateGoddessOfTwelfthNight]

Oh, and be proud of your daughter that she has the confidence and sense of self worth to be able to say NO! You will not treat me like that. I will not accept it.

And be proud of yourself that, despite everything you feel about yourself and what you accept because of that, you have been able to give that to her. It's a wonderful thing.

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

not sure what the benefit in training a child to spend time with nasty people is squeaky?

you don't think that sets her up for putting up with abusers in her life?

there is no reason at all she has to see this woman.

taking a stand for your dd may be the first step in taking a stand for yourself OP.

you had no choice as a child but to put up with her, you do have the choice to protect your dd from her even if you choose to still expose yourself.