DH punishing me with his depression??

[Wifeoflaugh]

I posted this in MH on another thread but I'm trying here for a bit more input. All thoughts welcome.

Dh has had depression for years. Things have been much more bearable and our relationship much better since he started citalopram (been on it 3 years now).

My problem: Most of the time dh is outwardly apparently 'normal' although he gets stressed and low at times. And most of the time we get on very well and support each other dealing with our dcs. But every now and then if I do something that he sees as 'nagging' or 'humiliating' him he threatens suicide. The nagging/humiliating can be incredibly trivial e.g. tonight I asked him (in a friendly enough and not stressy voice) not to eat roast potatoes out of the dish with his fingers and use a fork. He said 'I don't do that' and the dcs both said 'yes, you do dad, you just did it,'. This he interprets as me humiliating him in front of the children, 'everyone is against him' and therefore life is not worth living. Another time the trigger was me grumbling that he hadn't replaced a loo roll when he'd used it up.

He has not made open suicide threats in front of the children but he lies on the floor muttering under his breath ("no point going on" etc) and/or storming off and threatening never to come back. Of course this terrifies me and upsets the children and so I end up begging him to 'come back' and pleading with him to accept my apologies. This has happened about once every 2 or 3 months for the past year and each time it's when I have been mildly irritated about a trivial matter and have expressed this to him. I'm not a saint and probably I sometimes I show irritation out loud which translates to him as nagging.

But I am starting to feel manipulated. It feels like my punishment for daring to express any irritation is an automatic 'now look what you've done - you've made me want to kill myself.'

I don't know whether to take this seriously. Is he so depressed that such a tiny thing really tips him over the edge? Or is he using his illness to punish me for annoying him? I don't think I can be a patient saint every minute of every day. Other events such as an unexpected big bill and a problem at work do not seem to have this effect on him even though they are highly stressful.

AAGGGGGHHH. Advice desperately needed.

[EricNorthmansMistress]

I'd hazard a guess that he's a big whiny man child and is using his illness to guilt you into never criticising him and to keep you subdued and obedient. Just a guess though. I wouldn't live like this.

[GypsyMoth]

Are you sure it's depression? My ex used to threaten suicide and was also, for years treated for depression. A psychiatrist got involved when it progressed to actual attempts and turned out he had BPD.

All those years I put up with it because I thought he would get better. He didnt have an' illness,' it's a 'condition'. No cure for bpd

[GypsyMoth]

Bpd in this case was 'borderline personality disorder'

[GreenBlueRed]

Is he the kind of person you can talk to afterwards, once he has 'normalised' or calmed down, to ask how he really feels, is he really feeling suicidal or does he just feel unable to cope and express his feelings? Or will he stonewall you afterwards as well? Do you try to tell him how you feel, or is it all about him?

It must be very hard for you to cope with, and I'm not sure I'd have anywhere near the patience you describe, so think you're doing really well.

[Wifeoflaugh]

Eric: Most of the time it's good and he's not a whiny man - it just sees to be the nagging (which I do not believe is nagging) that is such a trigger
Tiffany: I do think its depression just because the difference when he started taking ADs was enormous and wonderful. And because he suffers from the very classic symptoms on the 'tick list' such as sleep disturbance and weird dreams when he is 'down'.

OOps - popping out 20 mins

[MoaninMinny]

ask him whats the difference between asking and nagging?

I wouldnt let this go to be honest, I would say stop being a dramallama and grow up. If he goes off in a huff let him, when he comes back, address the issue

[ItsMeAndMyPumpkinNow]

If being told not to eat from dishes with his fingers or to replace loo roll makes him feel suicidal, that's for him and his therapist to work on. You do not need to alter reasonable behaviour on your part.

But FWIW, it sounds like emotional manipulation to me. From a disordered person who can't handle even the slightest criticism, and so finds a way to make it someone else's problem. Again, that's for him to fix (or for you to live with, if you can bear to, which it sounds like you don't want to anymore).

[fuzzynavel]

Definitely sounds like manipulation to me.

My Ex told me once he tried to kill himself "over me" - what a twat. I told him he didn't do a very good job then coz he's still here [snile].

To be honest and dont take this the wrong way OP, sounds like you look after him and his depression too much and he's now acting like a big baby.

[fuzzynavel]

Oh, new emicon time - snile (cross between a snarl and a smile)

[Wifeoflaugh]

Hmm interesting that most people seem to think it is manipulation.

greenbluered - yes, afterwards he will talk about it rationally and agree he was overreacting and apologise. Then it happens again...

I've asked him when he is calm if he is serious about the suicide threats and he says he means it when he is saying it but the next day he looks back and realises he was being stupid. What frightens me is that he really could do something to himself in the heat of one of these moments. Which is what stops me from calling his bluff.

Moaninminny - apparently the difference between nagging and asking is 1. the voice I use (if I allow myself to sound irritated), 2. saying it in front of the children (= undermining him) or 3. 'going on'. Last night (the potato debacle) I was accused of the 2 and 3. Yes, I said it in front of the dcs because basically I didn't want them to copy. In dh's interpretation I 'went on' because he said he'd never done it. We all pointed out he just did. Then he said he'd never do it anywhere else and I said he'd done it at my aunt's house last weekend. I then said never mind let's close the subject and tried to change the conversation but the damage was done.

Perhaps I was nagging but I bloody refuse to be 'subdued and obedient'.

Thanks for all the insight it is REALLY useful.

[ItsMeAndMyPumpkinNow]

His dissertation on your "nagging" is bullshit to take your focus off his actions. Don't get taken in by it! The issue is not your "nagging", the issue is whatever you brought up (potatos, loo roll, or whatever else).

And the fact that he will talk about it later, agree, apologise, and then just do it all over again shows that sees no reason to stop this behaviour. He keeps doing it because it's in his interest to keep you doubting, to throw the focus away from whatever it is you are criticising him for.

[MardyArsedMidlander]

It's a very clever way of making you walk on eggshells. When you live as a family, you should be able to talk to each other or point things out without the other person threatening suicide FGS.
You are not 'undermining' him- you are having a normal conversation.

[garlicBreathZombie]

I have severe clinical depression. I'm adequately medicated but it's still a big struggle and I'm often suicidal. I would never do this. My suicidal impulses are my problem, not anyone else's and certainly not for children to know about

Agree with the others - it's cynical, extremely selfish, manipulation. I also agree that his is so extreme, it may well be a symptom of a greater underlying cause such as BPD. The depression wouldn't be a red herring, btw - having BPD is bloody depressing for sufferers at times. Medication could mitigate that but would do nothing for the lifetime condition.

In your shoes, I'd institute a new family ritual whereby you all leave the room (taking your plates if need be!) and close the door on him. Don't speak to him until he's resumed normal service. Same as a toddler tantrum really! See whether it fixes him or he finds a new attention-seeking ploy.

I would call his episodes "tantrums", both to him and the children.

[Theala]

Just because someone is depressed doesn't mean that they're not also a complete arse.

Has he always been like this?

[HansieMom]

Ask him to remove himself to another room if he is going to lie on the floor and mutter suicidal thoughts as he is in the way otherwise.

[Wifeoflaugh]

Blimey - I expected at least some posts saying FGS woman, he's got depression, can't you be a bit more tolerant? I bloody luv you MN

It is such a relief to hear people saying what my gut feeling has been telling me for a while.

So, practically, where do I go from here?

I don't want to leave him. The good parts of our marriage are good enough to make the bad parts bearable at the moment. (This wasn't always the case).
I've tried talking to him and have said I feel I'm being manipulated. His answer is that he means it while he's saying it and/or that my criticism of him makes him feel I am manipulating/ repressing him or 'Sorry, I'm so stressed at work that I took it out on you'.
I've tried just carrying on as normal and ignoring the lying on the floor muttering (or stomping out of the house slamming doors) but my biggest fear is the effect on the dcs watching this. They are 12 and 14 so can't be fobbed off with 'daddy has a headache'. It distresses them incredibly and I am so angry with him for behaving in an alarming way in front of them.

How do I tackle this?

[garlicBreathZombie]

Definitely talk to DC openly about it and refer to his 'episodes' as either tantrums or episodes. Don't rise to any string-pulling, and support the kids in detaching from it as well.

If someone is on the verge of suicide, the correct response is to call 999. In your situation, I think that's a very good idea for two reasons:

1. If he keeps on doing it, he'll be referred for MH assessment (in hospital.)
   
2. It shows DC the real way to care for someone in crisis (getting appropriate help.)
   

What an absolutely dreadful way for a family to live :( and

I am very much of the "Take all suicide threats seriously" school of thought, but for being criticised over table manners? FFS!

[ItsMeAndMyPumpkinNow]

Is he likely to change?

Doesn't sound like it, given the array of responsibility-dodging responses he gives you that you describe it your 15:31 post.

Do you want to keep on like this? Do you want to keep exposing your DC to it?

What means do you think you have to tackle this that you haven't tried already?

[WibblyBibble]

Er, he sounds like he's being a complete twat, but then I'd be pretty pissed off if someone told me how I was allowed to eat potatoes in my own home, tbh. The replacing loo roll is inconsiderate, the potatoes is his right to eat them how the hell he likes. It doesn't affect you. I don't think this justifies his behaviour, but otoh I can see that if someone is constantly coming up with petty, pointless criticisms of things he does, that could contribute to depression.

[SolidGoldVampireBat]

Tell him if he doesn't get a grip he can fuck off. Yeah he's depressed, waa waa, but that doesn't mean your life has to take second place to his forever. I bet he doesn't lie on the floor kicking his feet and grizzling if work colleagues/mates down the pub/his parents tell him to stop picking his nose or not to leave the door open like that or whatever - like all crap men, he reserves his bad behaviour for you because you're his 'woman' ie the receptacle for all his bad feelings, an object he owns and can treat as he likes.

[garlicBreathZombie]

Sorry, Wibbly, but that's just daft. You teach your children table manners at mealtimes, don't you? If the DC aren't allowed to pick up spuds, neither are the parents. Same with loo roll, etc; it's all normal, considerate behaviour.

Claiming stress or depression to get away with poor manners is ... bonkers!

[GypsyMoth]

I did the ignoring thing. The response was to up it a bit. Take the pills/knives etc past me, so I saw them. And inevitably would have to react.

Then when I stopped talking him round I did dial 999. Which he hated. Told me off. Becsuse he was never serious. It was about control. Maybe tell him that from now on you will do that

The second time my ex tried it, he had pre empted the situation and hidden phones and locked the doors. Forcing my attention.

He still does this with new girlfriends.

[Wifeoflaugh]

Wibbly, in a way I think you're right. But I honestly don't think it is endless petty criticism. The potato thing was Really not that important to me (those fecking potatoes!!) and was basically because I'd seen him doing it before in a 'polite' social occasion and it had embarrrassed me a bit. I hadn't said anything then because I didn't want to embarrass him in public but then when I'd seen him do it again at home I asked him not to, because I am
unsuccessfully trying to instil some basic table manners into the dcs.

Where is the line between unfair criticism and being allowed to express dissatisfaction/ annoyance in an honest equal relationship?

[ItsMeAndMyPumpkinNow]

I get exactly where Tiffany is coming from and agree with her, except for this: Maybe tell him that from now on you will do that [dial 999]

Don't tell him, as that can be construed as a threat: you don't want to enter the same manipulation game he's in. Either dial 999, or don't, but don't dangle it as a threat.

[Wifeoflaugh]

Mmm - bit shocked. Have just tried a BPD test answering how I thought dh would answer. Had to guess a lot for parts.

It came up Very High for BPD.

Shit.