I feel like i need a reason to leave...

[snaildoodle]

I've been married for 10 years, we have 2 lovely DC of primary school age.
H and I got married 18 months after meeting, i was really swept off my feet; I'd just split from a long term boyfriend, my mum had just been diagnosed with cancer, and I thought H was kind and charming and hard working.

I'm very new to the forum, but have posted in the Emotional Abuse thread about how I realised through attending a work related training course, that my H has always been emotionally abusive. I don't want to bore everyone with the long story of our relationship; but in summary, he goes through phases of being charming, loving, enthusiastic, (so long as I don't want to talk about anything deep, or ask for any support, or nothing else goes wrong at his work),these can last for quite a few months. Then he can just change; moody, abrasive, cruel, manipulative. (for example he has never hit me, but in the past he has thrown a plate of food at me, thrown me out of a room. He has started arguments calling me horrible names then when I am crying and upset sits back and says 'look at you, you are mad! you need help! Look at the state you are in!' Last month he purposefully soaked eldest DC with a hose of cold water even when DC was crying and asking him to please stop, and then denied it, then when I said I'd seen him do it said it was a joke and he didn't realise DC was upset; also a lie since I saw him walk over to DC as DC was crying and turn the hose on.



Here is the heart of my problem. I know I should leave, and in reality, his current Mr Nice Guy phase won't last. I have just started a new job, and am trying to pay off my credit card debt and then squirrel away some money so we can go. It will take about 6 months I think.

My H is a church pastor. Everyone thinks he is wonderful. I don't blame them because to the outside world he usually is. However 18 months ago he had an affair with someone in church, he denies they slept together, but they did kiss and 'fool around'. I later realised he has always had a pattern of becoming good friends with women, what I didn't know then was that he was sending flirty emails or phoning them a lot, but he insists they were all just friends and I am crazy and i just don't understand friendship, I'm jealous at how popular he is. (this is nonsense, by the way!). H has since bought a new phone and laptop, which are password protected, so even if I wanted to check if this still goes on (which I don't really, except that I do wish I had proof), I couldn't.

I work for a Christian project attached to the same denomination of churches. (but in a different church building to the one H works at) I love my job. However realistically if I just leave now, it will cause so much upset as a lot of people will side with H, and I think it could become unbearable for me to stay in my job, as we know all the same people. My family and friends just want me to leave H. A few weeks ago I started crying in work and told my boss (another pastor) what was wrong and she was wonderful, told me she would support me whatever I decided and was very annoyed at how the A had been swept under the carpet by those in leadership.

Best case scenario for me would be to have some proof of how he really is, so that I could stand up for myself and say, look, this is how it really is; otherwise I know he wil make me out to be mad and crazy and unpredictable. I want to give me and the kids a way to get out ,that doesn't mean everyone will think i am mad and terrible for leaving H and also because I think the church people deserve better, the way he is behaving isn't right; and the more he denies everything the worse it will get. I just feel so stuck. What can I do?

[humptydidit]

snail I can see where you're coming from... BUT, I don't think this is the answer.
My exH still maintains that I am psychotic and mental even 6 months on and blames me leaving on that... If that's what your H is going to think then he will think that whatever.
I can see that you want something concrete to give as a reason for leaving, but whatever you use as an example, he will twist it to make you seem like the bad one. That's part of the abuse, to refuse to take responsibility for your own self and behaviour.
I think most abusive people never realise that they are abusers, at least not in a serious way which makes them determined to change, in fact there are lots of abusive men who claim that their ex said that they were abusive and then use it as another example of how mental their ex was.
I think the best thing you could do is to get some support and like you said start putting some money away. Are you in the US? I don't know the names of the organisations there, but you need something like womens aid or a domestic abuse organisation. If you contact them then they can talk you thru your options and help you to make a plan to leave safely.
I also don't think that you should let the whole church image of goodness thing worry you too much, my own mother had to report her priest to social services for abusing his children who were removed from the family... what i'm trying to say is that there are abusers in all wallks of life, you need to focus on you and your kids, don't worry about what other people think, it's your life and you need to live it happily.
x

[sunshineandbooks]

snaildoodle . I think humptydidit is right and needing a reason is a red herring. Ultimately, the fact that he is abusive and you are unhappy is a good enough reason by itself.

I left my XP more than 4 years ago and he still goes round telling people it's all my fault and I was mad, etc. Quite a few people still believe him. I really don't care, since the people I see regularly and those I care about know the truth and believe in me 100%

One of the things that may actually help you is to remind yourself most people really won't care what the reasons are for the breakup. Most people have enough going on in their own lives, so while they may enjoy a gossip or even feel genuine sympathy toward one party or the other, ultimately it will be out of sight out of mind and they'll go back to thinking about their own lives and relationships. When you're in an abusive relationship the habit of justifying your every move can become so ingrained that you can forget that the rest of the world doesn't require so much righteous justification for everything.

I'd also stop worrying that everyone will believe him. When I l left I was surprised to find out how many of my XPs 'friends' (people who spoke well of him when we were together) actually knew perfectly well what he was like and sympathised with me even while maintaining their friendship with XP. As time has gone by, the fact that I have managed to cope with homelessness, newborn DTs, buying a house and holding down a full-time job throughout all this has made people realise that the PND, various madness and manipulative bitch accusations levelled at me are all completely false. Especially as XPs life has slowly deteriorated now there's no one there to run around after him all the time. Actions speak louder than words and people are not stupid. The irony is, by the time people realise all this, I imagine that you (like me) won't give a damn anymore anyway as once you are free from this manipulative man you will go from strength to strength and develop your own life that has little involvement with his.

Bottom line is this: It doesn't matter what others think, only what you think.

Good luck

[snaildoodle]

humptydidit, thank you. I think you are right, and I need to put the children(and myself) first, but I am worried about how disruptive the children would find it if that we ended up moving to be with my family (if I couldn't stay in my job); they are a a 10 hour drive or a short flight, away from where we now live. i don't have any close friends here, so there is noone I could really ask for help, we only moved here because of H's job, and the house comes with his job so me staying in this house is not an option.
I am in the UK, I'm just being very cautious about how much info I include; pastor is the term most of the congregation use, thought it easier to stay vague!

[humptydidit]

sunshine you are right, when I left and told people that I had gone, I didn't want to spell it out to them. But actually I was shocked by the number of people who actually said they could see what was going on.
Most people can see my exh for the arsehole that he actually is and the ones who can't are welcome to his friendship because they are n't worth k nowing!

[snaildoodle]

Oh, and thank you sunshineandbooks, I think you posted whilst i was trying to work out my reply to humpty. It's even just a big help to know I'm not alone in this; that other people have had the same experience and got through it, that's so encouraging. I think you are both amazing, humpty and sunshine!

[humptydidit]

snail sorry, if you are in UK then it's much easier for me to help cos womens aid was who i spoke to ....!
My ex persuaded me to move far away from my family too, I am from the south of England and we ended up living on a scottish island!!! As soon as I made my decision to move, I knew that I needed to be with my family for support, yes it was an upheaval for my kids, we left on xmas eve with no presents, nothing except the clothes we were wearing at the time. My family were amazing, they were so supportive, bought more xmas presents and stuff for their stockings etc and new clothes for me etc etc. Then later on I was able to go back and get some of our stuff, but tbh I wouldn't have cared if I left it all behind.
My kids are in a new school, new friends, new town, new house and no daddy, but 5 months later they are ok. Mine are age 6, 5 and 1! In fact womens aid advised me to remind them of the advantages of being close to family... "It's lovely in this new house and granny and grandad are only 5 minutes away, so we can see them all the time now" etc etc.
In fact, if you do leave, then being so far away will mean that it won't matter what H's friends think, cos you won't have to see them.
You can reinvent yourself. When people ask me, I just say that I was marriend and it wasn't working out so I decided to move back to where I grew up!!! Nobody will question it, nobody will know.
Please ring womens aid and at least chat to them once to see what they say, nobody wil judge you for staying with him or going back to him, they have seen it all before.
REmember the road to leaving is a long and bumpy one, but when you get there it is so worth it!!!
You can ring womens aid national number, or you can ring a local number, do a google for it, or ask your health visitor or ring the gp surgery anonymously and just ask for the number for it, or even the police will give it to you, no questions asked.
x

[snaildoodle]

Thanks both. I've started to try and make a plan for what to do. I am really worried about how H will react when we go. Very few people know about his A; he did tell his mum and dad some details, but they have never mentioned it to me, so i don't know if he told them the truth; despite the fact that he doesn't have a good relationship with them, and is frequently nasty to his mum, they seem to expect me to be responsible for his behaviour, and his mum sometimes admonishes me for 'letting him' do or say something.

I very strongly suspect that he has been telling some friends, and the people who we both work with that I over reacted about his As (he told one friend the most recent one wasn't sexual, conveniently leaving out the going to her house lying on her bed kissing and touching bits of the story.... i have no idea if the previous two emotional afairs I kno about went further than stupid emails) or that i have 'issues'. Am trying to seek legal advice but I am so worried that he will make me bring the kids back, or the conditions of the residency orders would be such that I couldn't realistically move back to family (it really is a full days journey away from our current city). And his friends / family / our colleagues will back him all the way? And if i am made to move back, they will all think so badly of me that, well, it would be a nightmare, i'd have no support at all......

H has been away over the weekend at a conference;the children have talked a lot about how they miss their dad but they have had the 'best weekend ever' with me. It all feels so much calmer and more easy going with H away, he's either in a mood, or ignoring us, or has some grand scheme to go on a bike ride or a walk (which is usually a route way too long and difficult for the kids, but he shouts and thinks they should just toughen up and be fine; last time he took the kids when I was at work on a route I'd said I didn't think was suitable, eldest DC fell off bike down a steep bank, through nettles and into a lake, youngest DC thought he was drowned H shouted at him for crying,....now DCs are very nervous of getting back on the bike; and I feel like even if I say something isn't suitable, H goes ahead and does it when I'm not around). But they do miss their dad, and I don't want them to hate me if we leave...arrghh. I'm being really stupid and indecisive.....

[Saffysmum]

You don't need further reason to split - he's had an affair (even though he doesn't admit to this, but I'm sure he has). You are unhappy, and quite frankly I think you'd be well shot of him, he sounds a manipulative bully.

Why do you have to go though? Why can't you ask him to leave the family home? Go to CAB and find out your options - then see a solicitor for a free session.

You've done nothing wrong, so why should you and kids find somewhere else to live?

[Anniegetyourgun]

He's being absolutely awful to the DCs. How can you let them carry on being treated like this? The hose thing is so cruel, not funny to a normal person at all (a couple of teenagers squirting cold water at each other might be, but not an adult soaking a crying primary-age child), whilst the neglectful bike rides are positively dangerous. He could end up doing one of them some dreadful injury. It's like he doesn't even realise they are little children.

[Hassled]

You do not need proof. You're very very unhappy for all sorts of justifiable reasons and you need to get out, for everyone's sake. The best of luck to you.

[FabbyChic]

Honey why would you even be bothered by what other people think? Surely this is about what is best for you and your children.

What others think is of no consequence providing you have the support of family and friends.

[snaildoodle]

Thanks everyone. I really, really appreciate your support. I've just phoned some of my friends back home and told them, well, the whole sorry tale, and they have been amazing.
Saffysmum, I'll definately go to CAB; and I didn't realise until today you could get a free half hour with some solicitors, it would really help to know where I stand.

He did have an affair; he refuses to call it one because he says they did not have penetrative sex.
Unfortunately, the house comes with my husbands job (kind of like a vicarage?) so I have no right to stay here. Not sure I'd want to, it's not been a happy time in the two years we've been here.

I just keep going round in circles in my head. Whether to just go, go back to where my family and friends live,and risk H going ballistic and starting legal action...or move out, find somewhere local, and just cope on my own with the the kids, cope with the flack I get and hope I'm strong enough.....

[Saffysmum]

snaildoodle: CAB were very helpful for me, so glad you will go there. They also recommended a lawyer, who gave an hour's free advice. And you may be liable for legal aid - so find out this from CAB, it will honestly make you feel so much better, because you will start to feel that you have some control. Good luck.

[snaildoodle]

Thanks Saffysmum. I def. will, because otherwise I'll drive myself mad wondering which is the best thing to do.
Anniegetyourgun; I'm am really worried the DCs will get hurt, not because H means to, but because as you say, he just doesn't seem to understnad they are just children.
But then I still worry about what would happen if we leave, and he gets joint residency, and I have to try not to worry when he has them on his own? Because I have no proof at all about how he treats them; no marks, my word against his.

[sunshineandbooks]

snaildoodle how old are your DCs? If they are at the upper end of the primary school age range, I think the family courts (CAFCASS) will take their wishes into account when discussing residency. If they are old enough to recount the hose incident themselves, that will go quite strongly against your H and in your favour.

How much time does your H actually spend with the DC? Many many abusive men threaten their partners with custody battles should the woman dare to leave, but in reality most of them do not do it because they don't want the hassle of day-to-day care of the children. My X threatened me that he would tell everyone I had PND and that I was an unfit mother. My HV actually snorted out her coffee at that one! It is such a cliche among men of this type, believe me.

It's not often I'd say this, but secrecy is your friend in your case. Family courts rarely remove residency from the parent with care unless there are extenuating circumstances and a risk to the child. Get some advice from CAB and a solicitor then plan your escape with military precision. When you are ready, just go. Get yourself set up in your own place with the DC and then send him a letter saying he can contact you on XXX telephone number or, better still, via your solicitor to arrange access. Do not give him your address at this stage. DO NOT prevent access as it will go against you in court, but do not set it up for your H either. If you are worried about your DCs safety, you are well within your rights to insist on supervised contact (this is not the same as denying contact, whatever your H may tell you). Leave it to your H to take YOU to court. Many men don't bother when push comes to shove, though I suspect that your H may be one of the ones who does. If he does, the most a court is going to do is reprimand you and insist you allow your H access probably unsupervised unless you can show reasons that it should be supervised. If you leave and contact SS with your concerns, they may be able to present a report to CAFCASS that leads them to suggest supervised access only. The hose incident should not be downplayed.

Good luck.

[PeepToes]

Snaildoodle I could be writing this thread myself. I am the same position.

I have 3 pre-school age DCs, an abusive H whose job is in the caring profession. I left my H just before Xmas to stay back in my home town, 65 miles away, and had the guilt of taking the DCs out of their nursery etc. I left after I told my friends the whole story, and they pointed out that he was abusive, to me and that some of his actions could be seen as a sort of child abuse. My friends are GPs. Once I told them, they encouraged me to tell my parents so that they could help me move. I left a note for my H who did not have a clue.

He told everyone I left as I was ill and needed to spend time with my folks (I had PND). I was so upset as I had kept his confidence about the drinking for years, and I felt he had undermined my position in my work community.

Unfortunately I went back, as he moderated his drinking behaviour, and I missed him! I now see that he is still abusive, but more subtly so, and my "excuse" for leaving (the drinking) has gone. I am still miserable, and feel that I can't forget or forgive him. So I know I need to leave.

Most people say that you don't need an excuse to leave - the fact that you're miserable is enough. It might not be the right thing to do, but as long as it's right for you, that's what matters. However, in mine, and in your case I think it IS the right thing to do.

You need to leave him. He is being abusive to you and your children.

You need support - practical and emotional. You don't need to tell him. He will probably try to make you stay.

The Lundy Bancroft book is helpful in terms of confirming what you probably have worked out for yourself-that he is abusive.

My H has been cruel to the kids - he pours cold water over them in the bath - he says it's for a joke - yes maybe the once, but he does it all the time! He takes them out on inappropriate walks, and gets annoyed when they prefer to go to the playpark.

Your kids will not thank you for being a miserable mother who put up with an abusive father. You need to be strong for them.

Sorry my response is all about me, but I just wanted you to know that you are not alone, and that I honestly feel for you.

Basically you do not need an excuse as his behaviour is excuse enough.

Thinking of you.

[snaildoodle]

sunshineandbooks; yes, the children are junior school age, so sounds like their feelings would be taken in to acccount, that's great! I've been trying to phone CAB and a another local free legal advice service, but the lines are constantly busy, so will try again tomorrow. I feel more confident already, though just beginning to gather a plan. Thank you!

PeepToes: I really feel for you too, and your story also really struck a cord with me. I wish you weren't going through this too, but since you are, well it really helps to know I'm not alone! Does that make sense; bit sleep deprived tonight! Hope you're ok.

Am loving the support for those in emotionally abusive relationships thread. Will probably try and confine my vents and tales of woe to there; have just had a massive vent about what went on last night and feel so much better having it down in black and white. I feel like then, it's written down, it's there, it really happened, and H can't try and charm / guilt me into forgetting it or pretending it never happened. I need to remember, until I get out of this!

[sunshineandbooks]

snaildoodle, glad you're feeling more positive about things.

Good point about the therapeutic aspect of writing things down. I'm now so far out of my own abusive relationship that I'd forgotten what it's like living with it on a daily basis - how you can feel like absolute s**t one minute because of something he's said or done and how he's charmed you completely into thinking you majorly over-reacted the next and that everything is fine. It's a major head spinner. I started writing everything down on a daily basis (and continued to do so for a year afterwards). Seeing it there in black and white really stopped me from minimising things. I came across that document about 18 months ago and when I read through some of it I was shocked at how differently I see things now compared to how I viewed them at the time. Although I knew it was wrong, I really didn't see it as shockingly wrong as I would now. Keep writing things down! Not only will it help you gather the strength to leave, it will also help you to recover after you've left.

Thinking of you.

[bleedingstill]

snail, I am from a church background.

You won't be the first woman to leave an abusive pastor, nor the last.
You have had great advice here.

You don't have to live this miserable life any more. A whole new life awaits you and your children.
Good luck

[snaildoodle]

Thanks bleedingstill.

I spoke to a lawyer today, and she was very helpful. She said that I can take the DCs back to where my family and friends love, and because it is technically still in the UK, it's not against the law. However, there are steps I can make to ensure that Hdoes not then try and twist things by telling the police I have disappeared with the children; letting local police know i am safe and the kids are ok; emailing H to say we are fine, that he can contact me by email, that I will be in touch soon regarding visiting them.

She then said that although I clearly have good support back home, etc, I would be best to have evidence or people who are able to verify my side of the story, other wise, if H 'presents well' in court (which he will) the judge could take his word against mine. She suggested getting my counsellor or GP to write a letter of support saying I had disclosed domestic abuse to them; I did to my counsellor but she then try to do couples counselling and seemed totally won over by H, saying he just found it so hard to talk about his emotions and I should give him time. I have never told my GP anything, he is an older man and I am worried that he wouldn't understand. So i feel like I'm going round in circles again to be honest.

[AnyFucker]

Please please take your dc's away from this man and go home to your family

don't try and "stick it out" near him

you know he will continue in any way he can to make your life hell

my blood ran cold when you described the hose incident

please, protect your children, and protect yourself

what other people think is of absolutely no consequence, he could be Barack Fucking Obama, but he is still an abuser

leave him, as soon as you possibly can

I feel so, so bad for you

don't let him ruin your dc's childhood, please

[AnyFucker]

couples counselling within an abusive relationship was a mistake

don't make it again, please

[Alambil]

where in the world are you?

You can ask to see another doctor, so you could have a female / nurse and disclose to them - you've done it once, the next time is not so bad (been there too)

Don't feel like you have to justify anything because of his job. TBH, he's broken the sanctity of marriage by having the affair - this is over and above that. I'm from a church background and it was difficult with such a close community, but those that don't believe you are NOT worth having in your life. They are not worth your time, worry and emotion.

Please find courage and get out of there. You and your children deserve peace and happiness. That can not happen whilst he is still in your lives.

I don't know if you're in the UK but you can ring the national dv line on 0808 2000 247 to get some support and discuss income, housing and practicalities.