Explaining DV (sort of) to a 5 YO child who witnessed it

[Crawling]

Hi back in August of last year my MIL was kicking off and screaming at my DP because my DP had always said no unsupervised contact with the DC she always had times when she would do this so I took my DS upstaires and came back and told her to please leave my house. She gave me a mouthful of abuse, death wishes and so on. So I repeated for her to leave the house or I would call the police. She turned and left I walked after her to make sure the door was shut because we live on a busy road and I didnt want it open in case the DC ran out.

When I got there DS ran down staires and my MIL turned and attempted to strangle me I was left with red marks and slight bruising. I pushed her off and she bit my hand, my DS was screaming and I hit her to stop her biting my hand. DP had run in by this point and when she launched at me got in the middle to stop her harming me she scramed him and bit him and hit him he pushed her out and shut the door but he did not harm her at all.

I reported but so did she both saying the other hit first. We both had minor injuries so police would take it no further. DS for a few months was very frightened and didnt want to see her. But lately he has been asking why she has not said sorry and why she did this. Now I dont want to make her sound evil because she is my DS GP and he loves her even though he is scared of her, she will not be allowed to see us again but how do I explain all this to my DS in the best way? DP is 100% supportive of this decision BTW and since she left has spoke of some truly horrific things she did to him as a child and exactly why unsupervised access was always banned.

[Mouseface]

I told DD the truth, in very basic terms.

Children are amazingly resilient. My DD whitnessed me being assaulted and has never forgotten it. She asked questions and I told her the answers.

I kept it calm and basic. I explained that the person who attacked me was angry with lots of people but that night, they took it out on me.

I told her it was okay to feel how she did about this person, she hated them. I told her that the police had arrested them, I went to court and they were evicted and charged with breech of the peace, assault and ABH.

I explained it all as and when she asked. She was 5 too.

I'm sure that if need be, you could talk to your GP and ask for more support. Or maybe have a look on-line for a support group, talk to them how best to approach this with hi.

[cheekeymonkey]

I think I would try and explain it as an illness. I think he is too young to explain that some people are just evil as he may then be afraid of everyone. I strongly suspect it is an illness and she requires help.

[Mouseface]

BTW, I'm so sorry that you have all been through such a horrific time and that your DS had to whitness her behaviour.

What a vile woman. I'm glad your DH has opened up to you, he must be finding this extremely hard to deal with.

Has he had any support? Counselling?

[MooMooFarm]

God Crawling how awful for you all.

I nearly didn't reply as I don't really know what to suggest, but my gut feeling is, as with most subjects, that you have to be as honest as you can, in terms that a five year old can understand.

I'm trying to think of what I would say - I may have to come back to you on that - just didn't want to ignore your post.

[JandT]

How old is DS? I'd probably explain that your MIL had an awful moment (probably would say 'unwell') and that unfortunately she hadn't apologised yet so until she does, you won't be seeing her.

[Crawling]

Thanks all I have been trying to be honest but we we go around in circles with why wont she say sorry, maybe she will say sorry later, maybe I can ask her to say sorry. I guess I will just be patient and keep answering him as best I can.

Mouseface I am sorry about your experience. No DP wont have counsilling he seems to think the things that were done to him were not that bad but I think it was abuse, he is slowly letting it all out.

MooMooFarm thanks for replying yes I think being honest is best but I keep worrying that I will put to much of my perspective in and end up manipulating him.

CheekyMonkey yes we also suspect that there is something wrong.

[Crawling]

JandT DS is 5 however DP has said even if she sais sorry she wont be allowed back unless she accepts full councilling and is willing to see only him until he is happy she has changed, which will never happen I feel guilty saying she can come back if she sais sorry when that is not the case and she is not coming back.

[tomhardyismydh]

I think what mouseface says, but I always remember my mum explaining it to me interms of violent person making wrong choices when drunk or angry and when he feels angry or drunk they fail to use thier words well and so instead, hit shout etc, she also didnt know if they can help what they do, but it is wrong and they should try better.

i would not say illness or unwell unless asociated with an illness as dc will then be more confussed, if its anger problem or drink i would be honest about that.

[cestlavielife]

dont say ill unless she ahs dioagnosed mental illness - and you can say for sure she has metnal ehalth problems.

otherwise too confusing the next time your DS is "ill" or you are "ill" he may expect you to be violent!

i woudl say it is never acceptable to be violent that way whatever the excuse and you dont know why she wont apologise but some people have problems.

[Mouseface]

Maybe if DP is letting it out to you, then that's a step in the right direction for now.

I know you are dealing with a hell of a lot so be gentle on yourself if you find you get frustrated with it all.

There is only one of you to go around.

I agree re DS, just tell him the truth re no apology, you don't know.

And yes, don't use 'ill' or 'poorly' as an excuse, he will associate it with others being ill/poorly like cestlavie says.

I'm afriad this will take time. Lots of hand holding and time.

How are other members of the family about all of this? Or is it a bit hush hush?

[Crawling]

Thanks again all ok just be honest with him and keep explaining as much as he asks

SIL has refused to speak to us which has also upset DS as she had a DS his age who he was close to. BIL believes us but does not like to talk about it much. DP does seem to be so much better he had real problems with confidance and self esteem so much he had a tough time speaking to people he didnt know but now his confidance is improving .

FIL (divorced and was always banned from family functions by MIL) is great and has now said the reason he left was because MIL was abusive to him but he never said anything before, he even showed a scar on his chest where MIL stabbed him and it was the final straw for him. So sadly she has been doing this for a long time

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

Try telling him that a few people have something that's kind of broken in their heads which is why they are so nasty, they can't help themselves and it is nothing to do with anything DS did. But when people are broken like this it's best to keep away from them until they can manage to get fixed or fix themselves (TBH as it sounds like this woman has had a lifelong pattern of violence-to-get-her-own-way and is therefore unlikely to recognise that she has a problem and moderate her behaviour, probably best not to talk much about the possibility of her getting better).

[DerangedSibyl]

At five, I'd say that grandma was too naughty to let into the house any more, and that as she is a grown up, she can't be punished by you to make her behave better, so you're not letting her in any more.

[Isetan]

Last June my Ex strangled me in front of our then 3.3 DD until I was unconscious. He saw her for the first time in January and the visit was supervised by two psychologists (Ex is in prison for 2 years for attempted manslaughter against me). I was very fortunate to have the support of a counsellor for me and a child psychologist for her. They advised that I condemned the behaviour and not the person and when DD asked why her father had behaved that way, I was honest, I told her I didn't know and said that sometimes people do some very hurtful things to other people (If I had a diagnosis I would have tried to explain it, but I didn't, and I never speculated). In the first few weeks after the attack she was concerned that he might attack her and I had reassured her best I could that I would try my very best so that this wouldn't happen.

Even before she saw him she had condemned his behaviour and said she thought that he was sorry. A condition of him seeing her was he had to admit to what he had done (no excuses) and had to apologise to her for his behaviour, which he had done. Unfortunately it is taking a long time to re-establish contact but that is out of my hands. However, I regularly urge her to draw pictures so that we can send them to him and she has photos of him in her room. Its important that she doesn't feel (which to to a certain extent she probably does) abandoned by her father and that she knows where he is and why she doesn't see him very often.

I am amazed and am in awe of the way she has handled the situation I would never had made it this far without her strength and empathy, and yeah I am talking about an almost 4 year old.

It was important that she was able to talk about what happened, not just with me, but with lots of people (sometimes she would start discussing it with complete strangers on the train ). She had several session with the psychologist where she re-enacted the attack with dolls and she was encouraged to talk about her feelings. I was advised that even very young children come up with their own narrative when it comes to witnessing traumatic events, and by letting her freely talk about what had happened I could knock some of her more bizarre theories on the head.

She doesn't speak about it as much any more but occasionally she does say she misses him and when that happens we talk about it and sometimes draw a picture for him or look at photos.

As much as I dislike her father (I wish Jim could fix it so that I would never have to see the prick again), he is still her father, and she has a right to have contact with him and as her mother it is my responsibility to be her advocate in this regard.

[RockinSockBunnies]

Sorry to hijack but Isetan - does your ex really have to see your DD? Can't you cut all contact and cut him from your lives? Given that he tried to kill you and is in prison, hasn't he essentially blown his chances of being a father and renounced his rights? It just seems a bit extreme that you have to maintain a relationship with him of any sort.

[DerangedSibyl]

he may have lost all his rights, but they little girl has done nothing wrong, and she has the right to know her father if she chooses to.

[Crawling]

Iestyn thank you very much for sharing your story, I am so sorry you went through all that, I hope you are in a much better place now. Your advice is brilliant thank you.

[Crawling]

Sorry Isetan

[squeakytoy]

That must be so hard Isetan :(

I really dont think I could find it in me to allow my daughter a relationship with anyone who had done that to me. I am of the view that no father is better than an evil bastard.

[Isetan]

RockinSockBunnies, its not about his rights its about DD rights and I am doing my best to honour and respect them. If there was/ is the merest suggestion of emotional or psychical abuse then I would end contact. Before DD my response would have been exactly the same as yours, but since DD came the conviction that motherhood really is a selfless responsibility.

I am very fortunate to have bloody good professional support and a DD that brings the sun out.

Apologies OP, I didn't intend to go on. I just wanted to say that it is really important that your DS can talk about what happened and be reassured. It can be very difficult reassuring others when you your self are and but if you focus on condemning the behaviour then the words will come.

Look after yourself and good luck.

[cestlavielife]

i think isetan's story raises the point of apology/remorse:

" A condition of him seeing her was he had to admit to what he had done (no excuses) and had to apologise to her for his behaviour, which he had done."

if he is apparently sorry, is doign his time, understands why - then i can understand isetan's strong beleief in making sure her dd has the opportunity for safe contact.

but - when you have someone who does not apologise and shows no remorse whatsoever, or just blames you/someone for their behaviour - then it really is a lost cause.

my exP just does not take responsibility for his behaviour at all. he does not apologize/recognize even any of his behaviour as being out of order. as far as he is concerend I am the one who is at fault. always.

that puts a different spin on it. like with the op's MIL.

[Crawling]

No need for a apology I think you are amazing for doing something which must be hard for you, for your DD Isetan.

I will admit a part of me is glad this abusive woman will no longer hurt my DC or DP. Her behaviour was always self centred and my DC were only of interest if they would fetch her attention but otherwise they were discarded

[Isetan]

The apology to your DS IMO is very important, it is part of the healing process for him. Crawling, your MIL sounds horrendous and I don't think I would have handled the situation as well as you, she sounds toxic and its difficult to see what long term value your DS will derive from seeing this woman. He needs to be reassured that he didn't cause, can't change or fix her behaviour. Your DH having unfortunately suffered at the hands of this woman from a young age, will understand your DS emotions like no other.

My situation was different because I didn't suffer years/months/weeks of emotional/physical abuse from my Ex and he has always shown genuine love for DD, so it has been easier to separate my needs from her needs. I don't know if my Ex would repeat his actions and I have no intention of finding myself in a position where that is tested. When he is released there will probably be months of supervised visits at a contact centre. My main purpose is making sure that neither me or DD will suffer long term by his actions, the best revenge is .

[Isetan]

I am no martyr, and had I suffered years/months/weeks of abuse I would probably handle the situation very differently.

Like I said, if there is the merest hint of emotional and or physical abusive towards DD then I'd get all mama bear on his ass and he wouldn't see us for dust.

My experience, Ex being in prison and the fantastic professional support has made it possible for me to think and act the way I do with regards to DD's contact with her father.

I wrote the above because I didn't want anyone to think that I am either deluded or wear a halo, I'm just thankful because from reading other peoples DV experience on MN, it could have been a whole lot worse.