Please hold my hand, I feel rubbish (long)

[MixedupMartha]

I have a very long story that I won't unravel here because it's so long, you'll all tune out.

My mother is...what to say?...controlling, sarcastic, vindictive, jealous, possessive, paranoid...I could go on all day.

Between the ages 13-18 she subjected me to quite horrendous psychological bullying/emotional abuse. I eventually got away by going to university and it was during this period that I spent 4 years under the care of a psychiatrist to recover from the experience. I won't list all of the abuse - suffice to say she wished she'd had me aborted etc etc.

I did quite well in the therapy (and have seen another counsellor since) but have been left with a legacy of anxiety and depression and occasional panic attacks. I function well - I have a great job, lovely husband, lots of friends and two beautiful kids - I just know I've suffered these things and I've got them under control but they'll never really go away.

After I left home, I remained in touch with my mother for the sake of my younger sister (14 years younger). It was not an easy relationship and she was constantly falling out with me. When I got married, she told my family a story about me that wasn't true - the story was designed to make them fall out with me and sadly it worked because they believed her. I haven't seen my family in 7 years (since my wedding day). It saddens me so much that they believed her, I eventually concluded they probably weren't worth having if they were prepared to believe I was the person she portrayed.

6 years ago, I read "Toxic Parents" after a recommendation on this website. I'd joined mumsnet because I was TTC and by the time I'd digested "Toxic Parents" I was pregnant with my first child.

As recommended by the book, I confronted her via letter. She wrote back denying the abuse had taken place, saying she couldn't remember any of it. I replied saying I didn't accept this - she responded with a second letter saying she did remember but blaming my stepfather - who defintely wasn't responsible.

She eventually accepted some limited responsibilty - never for anything specific - just said she wished she could turn back the clock but that she wanted to look to the future.

Stupidly, I believed she might have changed. I allowed her back into our life, allowed her into my child's life.

By the time my child was three, I was pregnant for a second time. My mother was back to her old self (nasty, sarcastic, offensive). When I took some time away from her (3 weeks without going to see her - no argument, just no contact) she put my sister up to contacting me and telling me "you ought to be nicer to our mum". I responded by writing to her again, telling her I was finding her difficult to cope with. She reacted by cancelling my birthday present (a magazine subscription that had only recently taken effect).

I haven't seen my mother since (it's been 18 months). I'm much happier without her malign influence in my life, however, this week she has sent me an email that makes me feel like a child and I'm really upset by it.

My elder child had a birthday and my mother sent a present. I e-mailed to say thankyou. I always acknowledge presents but every time she gets in touch, I start having trouble sleeping or I have panic attacks again. She responded to my e-mail by asking me was I ready to "sort things out". We now have two children, she hasn't met the younger one - she's desperate to see the grandchildren.

I replied saying I didn't think our problems were easily fixed. I said the issue was very complex and I could only have contact with her if she was prepared to either get some professional help or work with me to sort the problems out.

Her last email says she isn't prepared to do any of this. she says there's no point getting professional help because "If the counsellor doesn't agree with you, you'll just say he's wrong." She says she thinks we should "call it a day" and wishes me well for the future.

She accuses me of being ashamed of my family and says I have "said so on many occasions" (absolutely not true). She says my sister is upset because "she has two neices she isn't allowed to see (absolutely not true).

She says the crux of the problem is that "I love you but you won't accept my love". She also says "I fought hard to keep you, perhaps that was selfish of me" (typically sarcasic).

And finally - "I hope you don't regret this when your children are adults and they can make their own minds up about me and your sister".

This has nothing to do with my sister - none of it - my mother has dragged her in as an ally.

I feel she is threatening me. Her greatest wish would be that my children grow up and seek her out. She will tell them all sorts of lies that she was "prevented from seeing them" and she "has no idea why". She would love to split up my lovely little family - she thrives on that sort of revenge.

I feel like she's taken my entire family and now she's threatening me with my own children. I feel dreadful and panicky. Don't know what to do.

[MixedupMartha]

Anyone?

[sushistar]

Gosh, she sounds a nightmare. Can you write to your sister explaining she is welcome to visit the kids? That's what jumped out at me - that your sister believes somehow she's excluded from your life (unless your mum just made that up). It sounds like if you could at least keep your sister as a positive relationship, your kids could have a positive relationship with one of your familiy, even if it can't be your mum.

Sorry, I'm very ignorant about the sort of abuse you're talking about, but I'm so sorry it's been hanging over you for all this time.

[EightiesChick]

I'm sure this won't happen! Your kids will trust you as their mum - someone who has been a good mum to them, unlike your own.

Have you ever written to your sister or other family members to give them your point of view and the background to the lies told at the wedding etc? Even if you've done it before, it might be cathartic to do it again and explain what your mother has now done.

Are you still having counselling to talk through this (on your own, I mean)? It sounds like it would help. And tbh it does sound like you are better off with no contact as things stand.

[EightiesChick]

P.S. I am off to bed in a few mins but didn't want to leave this unanswered. You are not being rubbish and shouldn't feel guilty about being hurt and distressed. I'm sure you will get other responses but I will check back on the thread tomorrow anyway. Try to get a good night's sleep and read/watch something to distract you if needsbe.

[stripeywoollenhat]

you don't have to do anything. if contact with your mother distresses you so much, don't have any contact. it doesn't sound, from your post, that this is a conclusion you came to easily or flippantly: trust your own judgement on it. your children will be able to process that you don't get on with your mother, even if that's all the detail you give them: they are not going to stop loving you on the say so of someone that they do not know

[MixedupMartha]

Thanks for your replies.

I haven't written to my family, no. They aren't a touchy-feely family and I don't know whether they even know that emotional abuse exists. I'm not being awful but they're not very bright (I'm thinking specifically of a very dear uncle who I'm not sure can actually read).

I'm really not "ashamed of them" as she insists - just aware I've told you they're not very bright and that sounds judgemental.

I suppose what I mean is, they are of limited understanding - which explains why they believe her lies about me - they never think to question and believe everything they are told.

I am considering writing to my sister. I was going to invite her to come and visit the children. I don't think she'll come, out of some sort of loyalty to my mum - but she needs to see that's her choice and nobody is stopping her.

[rupert22]

I dont really know what you are asking here. To me, you are in the driving seat and you have control of the situation i.e. saying no to her coming to see the children. Yes i know she is talking about the kids in the future, but as we all should know, the future is another country, and its only worth worrying about when it comes.

You have said yourself the past 18 months have been much happier without her in your life. Stay away from her then. Dont beat yourself up, you are protecting your kids from a poisonous, bitter grandmother, who wouldnt worry if she spewed bile at said kids about their much loved mum/.

I do understand about the panic attacks, i have suffered them and wouldnt wish them on my worst enemy. But the secret to controlling them is to limit stress. If you keep up a dialougue with your mother, the panic attacks will return, worsse.
I would simply write back saying thanks again for the gift, and goodbye.

What you could do is visualise yourself receiving a call telling you she died unexpectedly. I know its not nice, but your feelings on imagining this news will be very instructive i.e. would you bitterly regret not trying to build bridges

[MixedupMartha]

Gosh no, Rupert.

I would be relieved.

That's not nice is it?

[rupert22]

Its neither nice not evil, just the reality. She has been a quite useless mother and has caused you untold pain and anguish. ITs not surprising you would feel that way.

I had a three year rift with my mother recently, and all my life a difficult relationship with her. I have imagined her sudden death when out of touch and felt the same as you.

She caused this, when she should have been loving you unconditionally as you do your kids. x

[EightiesChick]

People who don't know or understand the term 'emotional abuse' can still understand perfectly well that a person can be cruel and unkind to another person and therefore might spoil their relationship. You may find it is not so hard for them to process as you imagine, even if they are not intellectually dazzling. They certainly are less likely to disbelieve what they are told if they never hear the other side of the story from you.

Do write and explain things to your sister. Maybe suggest that you correspond at first and then work up to meeting? She may need a little time to think things over - I wouldn't assume you have failed if she doesn't jump at seeing her nieces immediately.

Off to bed now, good luck, will read again tomorrow.

[MixedupMartha]

thanks for your help, people.

I ought to go to bed - feel so churned up by her - I'm 37 for goodness sake.

Will check in tomorrow. Perhaps a new day will bring fresh perspective.

[loopyloops]

How was the relationship between your sister and mother as she was growing up? Perhaps you should think about a full and frank discussion with her, and if I were you I'd just totally forget about your mother. Your children will grow up knowing the truth.
Take it easy.

[MixedupMartha]

(I really AM going to bed!!)

My sister also believes everything my mum says.

Their relationship was much better. She's easily maliable and controllable - my mum loads the bullets and she fires.

She managed to alienate her from her father (they are divorced). She told her heaps of lies. I tried to give her an alternative view but to little effect.

Now bed!

[Condensedmilkaddict]

Martha I really do feel your pain.

I think you are worried that she will somehow manipulate your children, or mix them up too.

Don't worry. YOU are their mother. Not her.
And plenty of kids grow up without a grandmother. Sounds as though they will be better off without her!

I have told my kids some of the things I went through as a child, and they are horrified.

You will be a great mother to your kids because you will be sensitive to their needs. I would suggest keeping up with the counselling, as it sounds as though your mother can still get in your headspace.

I guess to an extent all mothers can. I remember once my mother said to me after I had just had DD, "you've failed at everything you've ever done."

Fucking lovely.

Clearly her way of telling me that being a SAHM was not impressive to her .
Now I have a great job, a uni degree (which she never had) and she still makes digs at me. Usually about me 'leaving' the children.

Some women are just mean for no apparent reason.
But can be charming enough to the people they want to manipulate (your sister). It's actually utterly sad when you think about it - they don't have 'real' relationships and try to knock anyone that does.

I wish you all the best.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Your mother is truly a toxic parent. She has turned your sister (who is more easily manipulated by your mother hence their better relationship) against you. BTW your sister may have a relationship with her mum but it is purely on your Mum's terms so she is not in a good position either. That is not a healthy relationship either for your sister to have. Such toxic women often employ the "divide and conquer" strategy.

Why is your mum like this - well its probably because her own parents likely treated her abusively as a child.

Counselling solely for your own self is a good idea and I would look into this again.

Your Mother would never entertain the idea of counselling anyway for her own self as she thinks she has done nothing wrong. You must remember that unlike yourself, this dysfunctional family do not play by the "rules" governing "normal" family behaviour. It is a waste of time asking such people to get counselled. Like many toxic parents, she has "forgotten" all the issues, blamed you for it all and has not taken any responsibility for her actions. These people work to a blooming script!.

I would certainly second this comment that condensedmilk made:-

"You will be a great mother to your kids because you will be sensitive to their needs. I would suggest keeping up with the counselling, as it sounds as though your mother can still get in your headspace".

You may also want to look at the recent "we took you to Stately Homes" threads on these relationship pages.

Block her e-mails as well. If any presents are sent from her take them to the charity shop. You do not need her malign prescence in such a manner. You let her back in once; you do not need or want to let her back in any more. Same with your sister, I would not want to have any contact of any sort now with her either.

[MixedupMartha]

Thanks for your lovely messages of support - they've really helped.

I honestly worry for my sister. She's 23 years old now and still lives at home. My mother has no real friends (just work colleagues) and though she's tried countless times to hold down relationships, she always fails because she's so controlling and immediately wants to marry them. She got engaged to my stepfather within six weeks of meeting and was pregnant with my sister four weeks later. It was a huge disaser, as you can imagine.

My sister has a job but she's never learnt to drive. My mother drives and owns a car so ferries my sister wherever she wants to go and has never encouraged her independence.

She takes her to work and collects her at 5pm (they work reasonably close to one another). My sister does the weekly shop with my mother because, apparently, my mother won't wear her reading glasses (too vain) so claims she can't read the labels on food in a supermarket. My sister jokes that she has to go becasue she's my mother's "eyes".

My sister, thankfully, has an excellent social life outside the house. Her friends think my mother is "cool" because she tries to act like them (she was pictured on my sister's facebook page sticking two fingers up at the camera along with my sister's friends and trying to look part of the gang). She really goes overboard with buying her affection - huge amounts of expensive presents at Christmas, big birthday parties etc. Everyone thinks she's a great mother but it's all for appearances.

She has asked that we forward our new address if we move house (which we will do, soon). She wants to continue sending presents for the children. I am completely certain that this is part of her dysfunctional game-playing (to help them remember she exists and make them more likely to go and find her later on). My feeling is that you can't "call it a day" with one member of a family and cherry pick the rest.

I'm sure she's going to use this as "I wasn't even allowed to send presents to you" but I think I'm doing the right thing??

[mummytime]

Get some counselling, if only to help your work through the issues fully.

Can you give our sister an email where she can always contact you if she wants. Just tell her you are there for her if she needs you, and you would love to have her see your DCs. She is an adult and will have to make up her own mind, so as long as you leave a door open for her, I would then make sure there is no contact with your mother.

What is your DHs opinion btw?

[MixedupMartha]

DH agrees - like me, thinks she prob has a personality disorder.

e comes from a reasonably stable family, has no idea how dysfunctional some people can be (though obviously knows my story). He worries that the kids may feel they've been deprived without truly understanding why - then at other times he thinks we should just trust our instinct.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

BACP have a list of counsellors and do not charge the earth.

I personally would not think your children would feel they have been deprived on anything here.

People who are within dysfunctional families play roles. Yours is scapegoat, your sister's is golden child. Your sister is actually no better off than you are really in terms of any relaitonship, this is all done on your mother's terms. Unlike your sister you got away from this dysfunctional lot.

I would trust your instincts here; your mother has got your sister exactly where she wants her. Your "golden child" sister has also allowed herself to be controlled and manipulated (you did not allow yourself to be manipulated in such a manner with predictable result that you became the scapegoat for this dysfunctional family) and will continue to do so. She is at the end of your mum's invisible lead. I would also think your sister would pass on any forwarding address of yours to your Mum as well as keep sending presents (and I've already advised what to do with these). Your mother is certainly not above using your sister to get at you and by turn the children. Toxic parents as well are more than happy to pass on their issues to the next generation; this can become a generational problem.

I would now start the process of cutting both your mum and sister off (that is so easy to write that, doing so is another matter entirely) as I think this is the only way you will escape their malign influences on your own family life. Do not let these creatures poison something that you have which is something good.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Stuff too her "desperation" to see the grandchildren.

She was no mother to you and she would not be any decent grandmotherly figure to these children either.

[MixedupMartha]

Thank you Attila - you've really helped.

[MixedupMartha]

Thank you Attila - you've really helped.

You know, I sort of knew I was a scapegoat and I read in Toxic Parents that you have to "cut off their supply" but I've always wondered what these toxic people do with all that negative energy if you actually do?

Surely they look for another scapegoat as an outlet for their hate?

[mitfordsisters]

MixedupMartha, if you are feeling anxious, cannot sleep etc. then this woman is not good for you. I feel the same panic and worry when I speak to my dad. So I stopped contact a year ago. Phew, the relief that was!

Since then I have been rebuilding relationships with my siblings, and extended family, and amazingly, without the influence of my dad, a lot of the difficulties we had getting on have melted away. Our family life was characterised by 'divide and rule'.

My dh is going to take my children to see my dad so that they know who he is, but I won't be in contact with him anytime soon. I sent a letter before breaking contact in which I asked him to respond about three specific incidents , when he had caused a lot of pain and upset. He decided not to address these. Until he does start to take responsibility, or get professional help, I'll give him a wide berth. I think maybe you should do the same.