Bought house with parents, now they want their money back in one go.

(188 Posts)
DreamlessSleep Tue 08-Oct-13 11:46:47

My mum and step dad suggested that they helped us buy a house 5 years ago when our landlord was selling the house we were in, but now they want all their money back in one go (70,000 I don't begrudge them for wanting it but think they could have gone about it in a different way) and obviously we don't have this. We tried remortgaging but they won't take their names off the mortgage therefore we cant as they are now deemed too old to be on our mortgage.

Are there any other options I have not thought of apart from from selling? (Which is the option it looks like we will have to go for at the moment.) We were naive when we bought it and in hindsight we should have stuck to renting.

allmycats Tue 08-Oct-13 11:50:43

I would speak with a solicitor as to how you can remortgage, take your mum along , they want their money but are effectively stopping you from re-mortgaging by their action in refusing to take their names off the mortgage. How do they expect you to raise the money ? There must be a document that can be drawn up so that they an take their names off the mortgage and be covered thatthey will receive the re-motgage monies when they come through.

pootlebug Tue 08-Oct-13 11:55:58

If they want all their money back, and therefore no further interest in the house....surely they need to take their names off deeds and mortgage?

fuzzywuzzy Tue 08-Oct-13 11:56:13

Why are they refusing to take their names off the mortgage?

Surely they have no claim on the house once they get their money back, or do they want interest?

DreamlessSleep Tue 08-Oct-13 11:57:18

I don't understand how they expect us to find the money in one go without letting us remortgage. Plus our house is now valued at £27,000 less than it was when we bought it so even selling it we would be walking away away with absolutely nothing and them not quite the full amount.

DreamlessSleep Tue 08-Oct-13 11:59:56

I really don't know why they wont. We payed out tge fees and surveys and right at the last moment they pulled out. It seems like an impossible situation right now.

fuzzywuzzy Tue 08-Oct-13 12:01:46

In that case I'd tell them to go whistle.

Tell them the condition for getting back their money is to remove their names from the mortgage and deeds.

pootlebug Tue 08-Oct-13 12:01:49

However they expect you to find the money, having no financial interest in the house and still expecting names on deeds/mortgage isn't right.

In theory you should be getting it revalued and giving them their share....even if less than they put in. They bought an interest in the house, rather than lending money, from the sound of it. Would they be expecting a % of the 'profits' if it had gone up in value?

I would not want parents who had not put any money in (once taken out) having a legal interest in the house - the last thing you want is to have to pay a % of their care home fees should they ever need care, because on paper it is part of their assets.

IrisWildthyme Tue 08-Oct-13 12:07:06

Did they make it clear that it was only a loan when this all happened 5 years ago?

Do they just want the same amount back that they put in (without interest) or do they effectively own a percentage share of your house?

Can you clarify what their name is actually on - if they are co-owners of the house, with their name on the deeds, that is different from being co-signatories on the mortgage - which would mean they are sharing responsibility for ensuring that the monthly repayments get made. Are they are contributing to or underwriting/guaranteeing your monthly payments or did they just give money towards the deposit?

If they want their lump sum back and do not want to share responsibility for the mortgage any more then your only (*) option is probably to sell. If you've been on a repayment mortgage and just have to give them back the same amount they put in, you will probably have £5-£10k of equity left after the sale goes through - possibly enough to go through a Help-to-Buy type scheme to buy without their assistance.

(*) this of course isn't actually your only option. If there isn't anything in writing saying that they can have their money back on demand, then you can refuse. This is one of the ways to create a massive family argument which could sour relationships for decades...

DreamlessSleep Tue 08-Oct-13 12:09:45

Its like they think that if they take their names off we might sell it at a later date we might make some profit which they wont be entitled to. Truth be told if it werent for this we would never consider selling it.

IrisWildthyme Tue 08-Oct-13 12:11:04

Edit - written before you said the house has gone down in value - eek! I think you need to get an appointment for a solicitor or CAB advice person to sit down with you all together and work out the options.

Are you saying that you had found a way that you could remortgage, pay off their share and take full responsibility for the house without their aid and they refused because they wanted to keep their names on the house despite having no financial input into it? That is bonkers and unreasonable of them.

DreamlessSleep Tue 08-Oct-13 12:14:52

They are co-owner, all four of us (me dh, mum and step dad) are on the deeds but they dont make payments they paid the deposit. We were so naive we didn't ask when they wanted it all back as they said you can pay it back when you are in the position to. Unfortunately we didnt get this in writing or anything else written down which sounds incredibly stupid now I write it.

IrisWildthyme Tue 08-Oct-13 12:16:44

Ah so they want their £70,000 back now, but ALSO want to have a share in the profits if they house has gone up in value by the time you DO sell?

Well that is just NOT how investments work. If they want their money back now, and they consider that they have a "share" in the house, then the money they get back now is reduced by their share in the loss the house has currently made.

If they want to maintain a hope that the house goes up in value again by the time it is sold and that they may have a share in that increase, their money needs to stay right where it is.

If they invested money anywhere else and asked to have their original investment back but also to keep their rights on any future share of profits in the thing they were investing in, they would be laughed at. It is a ridiculous notion, and what they are suggesting would be exploiting you in a very unreasonable way.

DreamlessSleep Tue 08-Oct-13 12:19:06

Yes Iris, that's exactly what they want. Its crazy.

magichamster Tue 08-Oct-13 12:21:12

I think you need to firstly talk to them about why they want their names on your mortgage. Do they realise that if you don't pay it they are responsible?

Secondly, I would take them to CAB/solicitors/mortgage brokers with you so a third party can explain to them that unless they take their names off the mortgage/deeds then they won't be able to have their money back.

I take it you have looked around and can get a mortgage on your own?

IrisWildthyme Tue 08-Oct-13 12:22:24

Barking dingbats I'm afraid.
Is there a third-part who they trust who can help mediate here? e.g. do you have a nice sensible aunt or uncle who can explain patiently they if they want to sell you back their share of the house they have to transfer ownership of the thing they sell, they are not allowed to have both the money and the thing that the money is to be exchanged for. They have to choose.

fuzzywuzzy Tue 08-Oct-13 12:22:59

You're going to have to be brazen about it and point blank refuse.

Their choice is, remove themselves from the deeds and the mortgage and get the deposit back (altho I'm beginning to prefer Pootle's suggestion and returning them the percentage in value your house is now worth).

If they refuse they don't get the money back.

adagio Tue 08-Oct-13 12:23:43

what iris said

They sound most unreasonable. If they want their money immediately/in one go (which in itself seems a little off as it is putting you in a very awkward position) then they lose all rights over the asset, and should lose a proportional amount to the drop in value since purchase.

SetFiretotheRain Tue 08-Oct-13 12:39:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JassyRadlett Tue 08-Oct-13 12:43:39

Well, for starters they wouldn't be getting their £70k back, would they? It would be reduced by their share of the decrease in value.

It sounds like they went into this as an investment. You need to approach it as such.

On the bright side, you actually hold the cards here. You can't raise the money without remortgaging or selling. If you sell, they will need to take their share of the legal and estate agent fees as well as loss on value of house. If you remortgage, they won't have those costs (and you might be willing to give them the full £70K back as a gesture of goodwill and thanks for the help in the first place).

HormonalHousewife Tue 08-Oct-13 12:43:53

Is there a reason why they want the money now ?

I think they are being completely unreasonable. £70K is a heck of a lot of money to find 'suddenly'

DreamlessSleep Tue 08-Oct-13 12:44:20

Unfortunately no mediator, only my dsis and I cant get her involved as shes got problems of her own at the moment. I am going to have to be brazen with them definitely. I really dont know what is going on in their heads right now.

DreamlessSleep Tue 08-Oct-13 12:49:15

Its obviously causing problems between us now, our family relationships will never be the same. It does feel like something has changed their minds but I dont know what.

BlissfullyIgnorant Tue 08-Oct-13 12:55:16

Ouch! Sounds like something dodgy is afoot. I would follow the percentage recommendation lots of people posted up there ^
Also, get a free half hour consultation with a specialist lawyer AND get a good financial advisor in case you need a remortgage.
How do you get on with yr DM's DH?

DreamlessSleep Tue 08-Oct-13 12:59:50

HormonalHousewife I think part of the reason is mum wants to give up her job. Shes not old, a 'young' 50. I dont understand how they thought I could magic up this sum though.

HormonalHousewife Tue 08-Oct-13 13:11:33

Hmm that makes sense then but still unfair

IrisWildthyme Tue 08-Oct-13 13:12:21

It's fair enough to want their money back - things can change a lot in 5 years and if there's a different thing they want to do with their assets then that ought to be allowed. Obviously it's a shame that they aren't going to stick to their "Pay it back when you are in a position to" which you might have reasonably expected them to despite not having anything in writing, but that bit is not worth falling out over. The crazy thing is them not understanding that having-£70k-invested-in-the-house and having-their-names-on-the-deeds are two inseparable things that go hand-in-hand, they cannot have one without the other. IF you can get access to £70k, you cannot, should not and must not give it to them without their names coming off the deeds.

Is your own financial standing now enough to support a mortgage on the current sum + £70k?

Bamaluz Tue 08-Oct-13 14:00:19

They can't expect to keep a share in the house if they get their money back. It's that simple.
Another way of looking at it is that you would be buying their share off them. Would they understand that better?

Depends how much you want this house ?. If the house is sold, they will get 25% each of the profit in the property after all fee's are paid, that way they will certainly loose out. As will you. You need to weigh up how much you put down and how much you will loose.
They invested in property and it didn't pay off, simple as. I have invested in property, and had to ride out any crash, maybe you should suggest they do the same.

TheFabulousIdiot Tue 08-Oct-13 14:26:34

Have you tried saying 'ok, we'll put it on the market this week'?

Bluegrass Tue 08-Oct-13 15:13:29

How is the legal title held, hopefully tenants in common at 25% each and not as joint tenants?

This is not a loan, a loan would need to be declared up front to the mortgage company as a condition of them making their own loan. They have bought 50% of an asset. If you sell they get 50% of what is left after sharing costs, which at the moment means they lose money. If you buy them out you should similarly offer 50% of the property's current value (again, they make a loss). In either case they have no more interest in the property and their names must come off the deeds. From that point onwards the risk of owning that property is all yours, and if the value increases the rewards are also all yours. They can't get something for nothing!

WhatWillSantaBring Tue 08-Oct-13 20:02:43

Another thing to consider sadly is stamp duty- if they take their name off the mortgage then you have to pay SDLT on their section- though at only £70k it might come under the threshold. Possibly a compromise would be to say you will return the full £70k but only if they take their names off- ie you treat the £70k as a loan rather than a shared investment.

Agree you could do better finding a friendly but neutral mediator - trusted friend or family member? Family feuds could cost more (in emotions!) than the amounts at stake so worth trying all "nice" approaches first!

TiredFeet Tue 08-Oct-13 20:09:35

you need to go and speak to a solicitor. they can advise you on the structure of how you own the property and the implications and options you have now. That doesn't mean things need to get nasty, just that you need to be clear what the legal position is.

DreamlessSleep Tue 08-Oct-13 23:16:35

Thanks for all the advice. Just got back from work. Have taken it on board. Will be having a meeting (hopefully a nice oone) in the morning.

IrisWildthyme Fri 11-Oct-13 07:37:14

Hi Dreamless have you had any progress?

DreamlessSleep Fri 11-Oct-13 12:42:54

We had a chat on weds and decided to sell. Much as I like this house its just not worth all the hassle. Im a bit sad but the longer it goes on the more problems its going to cause.

I hope they are going to take a hit on the investment they made. It is not fair if you take the whole lot.

IrisWildthyme Fri 11-Oct-13 23:04:08

Sorry to hear you'll have to move but I'm glad that you have come to an agreement with them without falling out. Good luck getting through the bumpy road to a sale and eventual resolution!

BrownSauceSandwich Sat 12-Oct-13 08:19:52

Just caught up with this. Dreamless, if I were you, I would be fucking furious with my parents for putting me in this position. And frankly, I wouldn't be letting go of a 50% share of the proceeds. It started as 50/50, but since then you and your other half have paid off some part of the mortgage (let's call it X. May not be huge, but your parents haven't contributed to that.) So the ratio of ownership is actually you: £70K+X; parents: £70K. I'd divide up what's left from the sale, minus fees, in those terms.

They probably won't like that, but if they're forcing you to sell the house, you have to treat them like the co-owners/investors they want to be. If they want to consider it a straight-up loan, then you remortgage IN YOUR AND HUSBANDS NAMES ONLY, you give them back their £70k, they have NO MORE INTEREST IN YOUR HOUSE.

They can't have it both ways. I'm sorry it's a source of discord for you, but please don't rip yourself and your husband off to satisfy somebody else's unfair demands.

DreamlessSleep Sat 12-Oct-13 10:47:01

Thanks for all your support. Brownsauce I am am actually quite cross but I feel like I shouldnt be. Mum just came over to take ds out and I coukd barely even even look at her. I know they want their money back but think they could have been much nicer about it. It is going to take a while to get over this I think.

Tbh I just want to give them as much back as poss and walk away, even if that means leaving with nothing. I dont want to feel like they have us over a barrel any more and I dont want to owe them anything. Im just so drained right now.

RandomMess Sat 12-Oct-13 10:52:10

I'm sorry that your parents have put you in this position, I think your life will actually much easier though once you have ended all financial ties with them, they sound a bit erm selfish in that respect.

DreamlessSleep Sat 12-Oct-13 10:55:09

Hoping so RandomMess. plus we were supposed to be hosting Christmas day here for them, but the way I feel right now I dont really want to.

RandomMess Sat 12-Oct-13 10:56:47

Well perhaps create a bit of distance for a while, tell them you can't host anymore as you'll have the house staged for selling!

DreamlessSleep Sat 12-Oct-13 11:02:50

Yes. I dont think it will be happening. I just cant envisage dh but but particularly me being able to sit through a whole day with them.

I don't blame you Dreamless, I think it will be very difficult to forgive them for this, afterall they are technically making you (their daughter) and their grandchild homeless. I know you didn't want to fall out with them but this this is unavoidable.

DreamlessSleep Sat 12-Oct-13 20:25:27

Havetowearheels they just seem so uncaring about it all. She has phoned me to ask me if we've seen anywhere nice to rent. hmm

Liara Sat 12-Oct-13 21:41:43

If they want it to be sold, the price will now be 27k less than it was. Any debt outstanding will have to be paid in full, so the loss will come entirely out of any equity that exists.

In the absence of any contracts to the contrary, that equity will be divided equally between the four owners of the property.

You and your dh can put in an offer to buy the property at its current price, using your parts of the equity and a mortgage.

You will probably end up better off than you would have done otherwise.

RenterNomad Sat 12-Oct-13 22:11:32

Is legal cover included with your mortgage bundle (you know, the life insursnce, etc.). That could be a way of getting some "good" advuce, not just 39mins of "free"/ initial consultation advice.

DreamlessSleep Sun 13-Oct-13 12:52:25

Im not sure on that one, I will ask dh later as he probably knows that.

DreamlessSleep Fri 18-Oct-13 11:55:20

Thought I'd pop back to add the new development, a friends ex has offered us the very lowest acceptable offer on our house. Its all happening a bit quicker than I'd like.

MummytoMog Fri 18-Oct-13 12:11:21

Don't accept. If someone has offered quickly, then someone else will probably offer more and you shouldn't have to lose out. I'm enraged on your behalf.

comewinewithmoi Fri 18-Oct-13 12:23:12

Please do not allow your parents to get away with this. It may damage your relationship further. MAke sure the loss comes out of the £70k.

DreamlessSleep Fri 18-Oct-13 12:40:15

MummytoMog hoping we can up the offer. I do want more money but I also want to get out of this situation quickly, it makes me feel ill thinking about it all.

Comewinewithmoi I think we are irreparably damaged now anyway. They are so tight fisted they wont hear about taking less money. They'll get less from the sale than they want anyway.

TessDurbeyfield Fri 18-Oct-13 12:42:32

This sounds entirely wrong. Either:

1. they have lent you the money OR
2 They have invested in the house

It sounds very much like this is 2 not 1. They haven't just lent you money on the condition that you pay it back, it sounds like they've insisted on being part owners. If that is the case then they have to take a hit if the price of the investment goes down and in the costs of sale and purchase (unless you've agreed otherwise). They also can't automatically demand that it's sold to get the money back.

Did you get legal advice when you bought the house and put them on the deeds/mortgage in the first place? What do the deeds say about who owns what in the house? Did you get a legal agreement as to who would be responsible for paying what for the house and when one owner could request a sale? I would expect any solicitor dealing with the original purchase to have made sure you and they got independent advice and put in place an agreement.

Please get proper advice. It sounds as if you are being forced into a really awful position by a confusion about the original agreement. I know you want to keep things sweet in the family but if they have forced you out of a home and got an unfair financial deal out of it (the full £70K) then you will always resent them

EldritchCleavage Fri 18-Oct-13 12:45:34

Please see a solicitor. Or re-post in Legal. As joint owners, you share out the sale proceeds equally. They cannot have their original stake back.

TessDurbeyfield Fri 18-Oct-13 12:54:04

These might help a bit (though they are mainly about couples) shelter
our property
They can't just tell you to sell. Please check whether you had some form of trust deed or agreement set up when you bought. I'd be really shocked if a lawyer did the work for the purchase without telling you to set up an agreement.

I would be taking the house of the market and getting legal advice.

DreamlessSleep Fri 18-Oct-13 13:04:37

As far as im aware we made no official agreement. As I said before we were very naive about the whole thing. It was their suggestion to help us, they chose the house. So many things things they've said and done about this is making very cross right now. We were very stupid. Panicking as the landlord was selling the house were living in then didnt help though.

RenterNomad Fri 18-Oct-13 13:16:31

Have you heard the term "distressed seller"? It is a seller who is forced to accept a non-market price because of circumstances. It is a non-market price because most/ordinary sellers would not sell at that price.

Your proposed buyer, being the ex of your friend, probably knows your circumstances are "distressed", so is taking advantage.
WHEN you speak to a solicitor, be sure to state that you're being oressured into becoming dustressed sellers with no legal enforcement distressed aeller

RenterNomad Fri 18-Oct-13 13:17:51

Argh - can't get to the bottom of my posts to get rid of the extra bits of sentences! Apologies for the mess

H2OWoe Fri 18-Oct-13 13:19:53

Dreamless, I am so sorry you're going through this - it is pretty awful. I know it is hard but try not to allow yourself to be pushed around by other people's needs/wants. Is it worth making a list of what you personally need to do to improve the clarity of the situation and get the house onto the market - say, get legal advice / make appt with r/e agent for valuation etc? That way you're following your to-do list and not being knocked off track by other people around you.

It really sounds like you were rushed into this property by other people (the fact you didn't even choose it speaks volumes!) and now you're being rushed out of it. Put the metaphorical handbrake on the situation, and take some control back. Doing this fast looks tempting but actually will just push you into compromising your own needs/wants. Also with all the paperwork, no house sale is actually 'fast' anyway.

The friends ex who has put in the very low offer is, at the very least taking advantage of your situation and is doing you no favours. There is no point in grabbing at the first offer you get - far better to present the house beautifully for sale and put it to the open market in a methodical manner. Take some control back WRT to the timing and the circumstances of this - you will feel better straight away and you'll make better decisions.

very best of luck!

MummytoMog Fri 18-Oct-13 13:24:49

OK, let me tell you about what we did with our first house.

OH couldn't raise a deposit, so he and his brother bought together, their parents lent them the deposit for five years. They paid interest monthly to their parents on the deposit amount, then remortgaged after five years and paid them back the capital. Two years later, BiL wanted out of the house (to buy one with his GF) so DH worked out (with solicitors) what BiL's share of the current equity was and paid him that to buy him out, and moved the mortgage into his name, had the deeds changed etc, paid stamp duty and so on. So parents lent money and got entire capital plus interest back, brother invested in property, so got a share of the profit the flat made over that period (was £30k I think).

I'm guessing the best option would be for them to let you have the house to yourself, by remortgaging without their names on. Can you offer them two options - explain that the house has lost value, so not able to pay them back the full amount and they can only get a proportion of the value of the house back (so lose money) and the second would be to get their entire stake, plus fair interest for the years they lent it to you, back but have no further claim on the house.

They sound SO selfish. They should not have offered to lend you the money if they were going to be like this.

friday16 Fri 18-Oct-13 13:43:47

It was their suggestion to help us, they chose the house.

So in essence, they bought an investment property, and you bought a share on a part-ownership basis. It's water under the bridge, and it doesn't help your situation to pick over the bones of what went before, but either you were all spectacularly naive or alternatively they were a great deal more aware of the implications than you. Given people who are spectacularly naive tend not to have seventy grand lying around loose when they're 45 (you mother's now fifty, the purchase was five years ago), I would favour the latter.

You're going to lose money by selling up, but I think your choices are limited and in any event are going to leave your relation with your parents a smoking ruin. You can either:

(a) do nothing, shout "fuck you, see you in court" and leave it to m'learned friends (expensive, ugly and very stressful)

(b) get them out of the stupid idea that they can remain on the deeds and buy them out at an agreed (how?) price (sensible, but it sounds like they don't want to be sensible)

(c) sell up, divvy up the proceeds (you all lose money) and then attempt to buy another house (will you have a deposit?)

In any case, your lessons are (a) get legal advice before doing complex financial transactions, no matter how much you think the parties involved are trustworthy and (b) tell your parents to fuck off out of your lives.

DreamingAlice Fri 18-Oct-13 14:20:46

Please please please don't compound this mess which you essentially got into by failing to obtain proper legal advice- make sure before you do anything else or any make any further decisions that you talk to a solicitor first. I really cannot fathom why your parents lent you this money in the first place if as a result you are going to end up with no house and no money (and they will get less than the original stake anyway).

DontMentionThePrunes Fri 18-Oct-13 14:35:47

Do your parents happen to know your friend's ex, the one who is making the low offer?

Damnautocorrect Fri 18-Oct-13 14:38:11

Don't forget there's the new government buying scheme, it has its draw backs but might help you if your struggling with the deposit as it can be for 2nd homes / 2nd mortgages

DreamlessSleep Fri 18-Oct-13 14:48:57

Legal advice sounds the way to go, just cant really afford it.

They didnt know the friend's ex before he made the offer, no. He's desperate for a place as he and his ex have had to sell their brand new place now they've split up so obv he wants something cheap.

H2OWoe Fri 18-Oct-13 14:53:47

Dreamless - check your house insurance policy - there may be access to legal help in the cover you have. OR check with CBA. Really, you are better off spending £100 on advice. You sound really stuck and it would be good for you to have professional objective advice. At least call the CBA!

Oreocrumbs Fri 18-Oct-13 15:15:12

I second all of the above advice. Mainly get legal advice. You are standing to lose your home and money. It will be a false economy to try and save some money by going without legal advice.

Also don't take the low offer. I can completely understand you are in shock (not to mention pain and turmoil that your parents have done this), but a quick sale isn't in your interests.

The time spent waiting for a buyer will allow you to take and process legal advice, and save up for a deposit and moving costs.

Another vote for "please do no accept this offer". If your relationship with your parents is already in tatters I don't see how getting legal advise or sitting tight is going to make it worse. H20Woe and Friday16 have hit the nail on the head. You say your parents will accept no less than their 70k, I think you will find that if your are all joint owners the solicitors will divvy up any profits between you all, therefore you will all get 25%. If you refuse to sign anything to the contrary there is very little they can do.
You need to establish if you are joint tenants or tenants in common, there are two ways to jointly own a property.
Post in Legal too.

EldritchCleavage Fri 18-Oct-13 15:31:40

Dreamless, you can't afford not to get legal advice on this. Honestly, post in Legal, someone will be along to help.

PastaBeeandCheese Fri 18-Oct-13 15:35:05

dreamless can I clarify please..... Your mother has accepted she is only going to get a proportion of the money back hasn't she? She must take the hit on the loss and the EA and legal fees?

I'm so sorry you are in such a difficult situation. They sound bonkers.

Dreamless stop prevaricating. Call a bloody solicitor! Many would give their interpretation first and charge once they do work. It might not take much. A couple of official letters might be enough.

Don't shaft your family because you feel ill with worry. It could cost you more than house.... (Health, relationship etc) come on my dear please, please make a call.

DreamlessSleep Fri 18-Oct-13 15:43:12

I will seek proper legal advice.

No pasta, it wouldn't be as bad if they'd accept less but they want as much as they can, which is ridiculous.

PastaBeeandCheese Fri 18-Oct-13 15:49:10

You definitely need legal advice. It will cost you less in the long run.

Your mother and step father can't act without reference to the law even if they do seem willing to act without reference to any sense of reasonableness.

Fluffycloudland77 Fri 18-Oct-13 15:58:50

I'd sell the house and fuck them both off. They sound as deranged as my parents were.

What kind of parent takes their offspring out of a safe mortgaged house and puts them into rental?.

friday16 Fri 18-Oct-13 16:06:59

Legal advice sounds the way to go, just cant really afford it.

I'm not sure you can afford not to, though. Look at the problems you've got into through doing it yourself first time around.

TessDurbeyfield Fri 18-Oct-13 16:07:52

You are actually in a much stronger position than you think. Pull the house from the market and refuse to sell.

Think of it from their perspective. They want their £70K back but you don't want to sell. They can't sell the house without your agreement unless they go to court. If they go to court then that's a huge amount of money and time to spend and they might not get what they want anyway. It's not an automatic thing at all. The court need to look at why the house was bought in the first place (for you to live there) and if it's still being used for that (it is), they also have to think of the needs of any child living there (is there?). So if they want to force a sale they risk spending a load of money and time and losing. If they win, well they've lost all that money anyway AND...

... then they'd have to work out what they got back. This can be really complicated. It should be written into the original deeds but if it's not then the law is hugely complex which means hugely expensive. Given the house has gone down in value and there are costs of sale etc it's very unlikely they'll get their £70K back even before they've paid legal and court fees.

In the meantime you say that they're on the mortgage which means that they're also legally liable for the mortgage. So if you stopped paying then the mortgage company could go after them.

Now I really wouldn't want to be in their position. They are liable for your mortgage, it's difficult for them to get their cash back and it's really uncertain how much they'd get back anyway.

No wonder they are bullying you into signing your rights away.

kilmuir Fri 18-Oct-13 16:08:32

Please post on legal section, wise words and help on there

EldritchCleavage Fri 18-Oct-13 16:10:56

Yep, ou see I think they have taken advicew, they know their position is not a strong one, so they are trying to bullying you into acting to give them £70k quickly, before anyone tells you you aren't obliged to do that.

Oops, too late! The power of Mumsnet is a wonderful thing...

PastaBeeandCheese Fri 18-Oct-13 16:18:46

Ass much as I agree with the sentiment fluffy they don't deserve their £70k back morally or legally. If they insist on the property being sold now then they take the hit on the loss and pay half the fees.

OP has offered them the chance to have their full investment back provided they view it as a loan and relinquish any interest in the property.

OP has been extremely reasonable and I'd be telling them that those are the two options and they can whistle for anything else.

No way would I sell the house and give them £70k.

friday16 Fri 18-Oct-13 16:23:34

So if you stopped paying then the mortgage company could go after them.

Why would they bother? There's a property the loan is secured over. Given the massive complexity, they'd just go for repossession. That would be the last thing the OP needs.

PastaBeeandCheese Fri 18-Oct-13 16:26:48

I agree friday but in that scenario wouldn't all 4 parties would be liable for the loss and fees as the repossession wouldn't cover the outstanding loan??

If that is right then its another reason why the parents need to accept they take the hit too or accept OP's very generous offer to repay them £70k if they take name off mortgage and relinquish interest.

Get legal advice and don't be bullied by your mother.

Yes she's your mother but I would cut all contact, including with your DS, and keep it strictly to conversations about the house.

What a horrible thing to do - would you do that to your own child OP?

What's the step father like? Is it him driving this?!

lljkk Fri 18-Oct-13 16:36:38

What percentage of the house do you each own, OP?
The solicitor who handled the conveyancing should be able to look it up for you without charging you any money for that information. Just phone their office and ask them to check. Your bank who holds the mortgage may have same info & won't charge you for it.

I can't imagine how painful this is for you. sad

PuggyMum Fri 18-Oct-13 16:42:53

What will they do with their £70k if they get it? If it's to try to et a decent return somewhere else they won't get a decent rate in a bank account!

Might be worth seeing if they would accept a monthly return from you instead?

But anything you do moving forward, please get advice. If you can crystallise the arrangement so everyone knows where they're at from here on in.

I second the poster who says don't sell the house. Certainly not at a silly offer!

holidaysarenice Fri 18-Oct-13 17:01:46

You definitely have the stronger position than they do.

There are so many points on here that you can use:
A) they are liable for the mortgage too.
B) the investment has decreased.
C) you do not have to sell and return 70000.

If you feel its hard to tell them to f off, then think of the loss you are taking, picture ur dd, then picture her without/with things that could buy her.

My impartial advice to see a solicitor to outline the possible situations to your parents. Then outline what you plan to do.

friday16 Fri 18-Oct-13 17:26:19

wouldn't all 4 parties would be liable for the loss and fees as the repossession wouldn't cover the outstanding loan??

Has the OP mentioned the mortgage being in negative equity? In order for a repo to not cover the loan the property would have had to have dropped in value by more than the seventy grand the parents put in. under the circumstances, if that had happened, the situation would be a great deal messier than it already is. So I think that a repo would be sufficient. In any event, there's probably insurance for the lender against a loss on a repo, and the people who would then chase the borrowers would be the insurance company post sale.

lljkk Fri 18-Oct-13 18:01:06

op said the property is worth £27k less than purchase price.

friday16 Fri 18-Oct-13 18:06:11

op said the property is worth £27k less than purchase price.

So it's not in negative equity. The whole problem is that the OP's parents injected £70k of equity at the outset. There's still £43k of equity. No problem for a repo.

TessDurbeyfield Fri 18-Oct-13 18:18:45

Friday - I'm in no way suggesting she should stop paying the mortgage just that the parents are in a very vulnerable position. By being on the mortgage they're liable for the debt too. I wouldn't want to be in that position at all if I were them.

If I were the OP I would offer to pay them their share (dropped by the % loss in the value of the house) in return for taking them off the mortgage and deeds. That would seem the right thing to do and a very good deal for the parents

ExcuseTypos Fri 18-Oct-13 18:28:01

Gosh what a nightmaresad.

-Please get legal advice

-Do NOT sell to a low offer

-Make sure your mum pays her share of the losses. - if she argues about this, tell her it's because she wants her money now. If she was to wait a year or so, the house will most probably rise in value and there will be no losses.

Good luck.

Helliecopter Fri 18-Oct-13 19:30:26

I've no legal expertise and can't offer any better advice than what everyone else has said, but I just wanted to say good luck.

If you really do think your relationship with your parents is irreparably damaged by this now, then don't just sell at a low price and give them their money to have it all over and done with. Fight your corner and as horrid as it will be, it WILL be over eventually. Get legal advice (on here if nowhere else) and be firm with them. It's completely unreasonable to demand all their 'investment' back and as others have said, I think they're trying their luck because it's YOU that's in the strong position here. Where's the written agreement? Where's the proof they ever lent/gave/invested money?
Just because their names are on the mortgage what does that mean...find out. Go in armed with knowledge and be prepared to fight for your family and home.

Horrible situation to be in and I can't imagine how crap it's making you feel. What kind of parents would make their child sell their home? sad

Keep us posted. I think lots of us will want to know how you get on.


NatashaBee Fri 18-Oct-13 20:06:41

I really hope you manage to get legal advice, OP. At the very least, if you do have to sell, the money they get back should reflect the drop in the property price.

clam Fri 18-Oct-13 20:27:58

OP, am I right in thinking that, even if the house sells at a loss, you're intending to give your parents 70k back?

Please tell me I've got that wrong!

bimbabirba Fri 18-Oct-13 21:30:12

OP plead take legal advice. It doesn't have to cost a fortune but you can't let them ruin you, which is what they're about to do.

DreamlessSleep Fri 18-Oct-13 23:20:08

Just got in from work, thanks for your advice agsin. We will definitely be getting legal advice. I have definitely learnt a life lesson here. Then dh and I have some very difficult decisions to make.

Clam They basically want all if not as much as possible.

PuggyMum they have talked about buying a student house to rent out, I feel bitter writing that.

CreatureRetorts I believe it is all from my step father even though the only conversations we have about it are through my mother. Its like he is is making my mother do all the dirty work.
In truth I dont know their motivation for doing this. I couldn't do it to a child of mine. It just seems a strange thing to expect after how much they pushed to buy this house.

DreamlessSleep Fri 18-Oct-13 23:23:59

Hellicopter technically there is no proof, but I wouldnt want to never give it back, we cant just give the whole amount now as we don't have it. Which is why I dont understand why they stopped us remortgaging.

clam Sat 19-Oct-13 00:08:53

OK, so is their argument, "We lent you £70k, therefore that's what you owe us?" Because that falls flat the minute you remember that their name is on the mortgage, which means it was not a standard loan, but an investment, and those funds can go down as well as up.

Glad you're going to be getting legal advice.

Not wanting to project here, but what is your stepfather like? How is your mum's relationship with him?
Mine is quite controlling and would pull this sort of stunt if he had the means but be too cowardly to spark to me and go through my mum. She would go along with it and act normal as that was her coping mechanism. Now, I am projecting but he could be bullying/controlling you now.

You have all the cards, treat this as a financial transaction and get the best deal for your immediate family. It's your home!! I can't believe how you've got to sell - a complete nightmare in itself.

*speak not spark

DreamlessSleep Sat 19-Oct-13 08:31:17

He is pretty controlling, that is another issue she's had.

bimbabirba Sat 19-Oct-13 09:03:54

They don't need proof, they have their name on the deeds as tenants on common. OP please get a solicitor to check what share of the equity they have based on their contribution as it's not necessarily 50%, depends
on what was agreed at the time.
If they want to reinvest in a rental for students, could you perhaps suggest that instead you stay in your house and pay them rent based on their share of the equity as worked out by a professional?

DreamlessSleep Sat 19-Oct-13 09:14:31

Thought of that, but u get far more income from students.

Oreocrumbs Sat 19-Oct-13 09:45:32

Stop worrying about them. They are not worried about you and your child(ren).

I think you need to find your fire. The damage to your relationship is done now - nothing you do from this point forward can make it any better or worse.

So you must fight for your family. They lent/gave/invested that money saying you could have it until you were in a position to return it. You are not in that position. So you have not broken your side.

Don't let them make you feel like a naughty child, just because they are your parents. You have to try and see this as a business deal. Don't let 'the other party' screw you over.

I think you need to find your fire. The damage to your relationship is done now - nothing you do from this point forward can make it any better or worse


Your mum has put her husband and bank account before you, her own daughter.

You need to stand up for yourself and your family. Get the best deal you can, don't let the step father screw you more than necessary.

outtolunchagain Sat 19-Oct-13 09:59:39

Agree you need to check deeds , the ownership will be as set out in there , if you sell the proceeds will go in pot , expenses deducted and the solicitor will , in the absence of other instruction , pay out in proportion to what is on deeds .They will not get their 70k and from what you have said they have no right to it .

You hold all the cards here .It may be as well that your mortgage company would not agree to a sale at a low price.

You absolutely must get legal advice as you have a very strong position and they are trying to bully you and rush things because they , or at least your stepfather knows this I suspect.

bimbabirba Sat 19-Oct-13 10:21:02

IIRC from studying land law, they may not be able to force the sale if as Tenants in Common they have less than 50%. Also, as you have a child a judge must give you one year to sell the house and fin other accommodation. As I said you must get proper legal advice

PrimalLass Sat 19-Oct-13 10:25:56

Oh poor you OP, what a horrible situation. TBH, as I could not have a relationship with someone after this, I would say that either you buy it from them or you don't sell at all.

WhoNickedMyName Sat 19-Oct-13 10:28:22

If they put in 70k and aren't making a contribution to the mortgage payments, and the understanding is that if and when you sell, they get the first 70k of equity (plus maybe a nominal amount of interest) then I think that's fair enough.

I agree though, that the way they've gone about it, totally out of the blue is shitty.

The thing is, all this should have been written into a contract at the time. You haven't really explained how they're written in on your deeds/mortgage, and so you need to get proper legal advice.

I do sympathise. DH and I learned the hard way when a financial 'favour' from his step-dad and DM ended up leaving us 12k worse off and them in clover. Never again!

In this situation I'd feel exactly as you do - get rid of the house, give then their 70k back and cool off the relationship.

DontMentionThePrunes Sat 19-Oct-13 10:34:26

But if the value has gone down, then they would be getting lots more than their share if they get £70k + interest on selling the house.

WhoNickedMyName Sat 19-Oct-13 10:56:50

But they put 70k in to start with. If that was done as a loan then that's what they should get back.

If it was done on the understanding that it was an investment for them, and they were taking their chances on property prices going up, then I agree that's a different matter entirely.

It all depends how it's written up.

RandomMess Sat 19-Oct-13 11:21:49

I would:

1. Tell your Mum that you are concerned for her as you can't believe that it is her wanting to do this as makes no financial sense and that she would never want to see you homeless. (Just state this as fact so she knows that you will support her if she decides to leave her arse of an H)
2. Offer to pay them some "rent" on the £70k now and they maintain there investment in the house - like a shared ownership scheme works.
3. If she doesn't think that option would work then you will be following the advice of your solicitor which is x y z - presumably you will have a year to find a new home and they will only be entitled to x amount as per the tenancy is drawn up etc.

DreamlessSleep Sat 19-Oct-13 14:51:47

I have tried number 2 already but they aren't interested, they just want one lump sum.

PuggyMum Sat 19-Oct-13 14:57:03

It is a horrid horrid situation dreamless.

It might be worth testing the water by saying...

Sorry mum but our only option here is to remortgage to give you your money back. If you won't let us do that we'll need to seek legal advice....
If we sell the house, which has one down in value by x% you'll only get £x back. We wouldn't have accepted your money if we'd have known you would want it back already. You've put us in a very difficult position here.

friday16 Sat 19-Oct-13 14:58:41

they aren't interested, they just want one lump sum.

Your relationship with them is, for practical purposes, over. Tell them that you have no intention of giving them a penny but they are welcome to sue for it. In order to do that, they will have to present a case, in writing, as to why they think the money is due to them. That alone would clarify matters. Their nonsense of wanting the money but also having their names left on the deeds would obviously be laughed out of a court, so even if they got a judgement against you, you would at least have the option of extending the mortgage (tricky given the equity position, but not impossible) and buying them out.

Herisson Sat 19-Oct-13 15:08:04

If I were you, I think I'd appeal to their greed. You could say, look, there are two options. Either we remortgage, which means you take your name off the deeds and we pay you back your £70K. Or we sell the house, in which case you will only get back a proportion of your £70K as there will be a loss which we will absorb in proportion to our current liabilities so if the house is worth £210K, they take a third of the 27K loss and you take the other two-thirds. I imagine that since they are so keen to get their money, they are likely to take the first option.

RandomMess Sat 19-Oct-13 15:41:45

I think it may be worth doing everything in writing from now on.

So so so so sad for you flowers

DreamlessSleep Sat 19-Oct-13 18:43:45

Yes I will RandomMess.

Feeling so down right now.

PastaBeeandCheese Sat 19-Oct-13 18:48:12

Oh dreamless it is a rotten situation but it's not of your making.

Your offer to treat it as a loan, remortgage and repay in return for them coming off the deeds was very reasonable.

You just need to think about yourself and your children now. Just tell yourself that whatever uncomfortable correspondence is to come it is for their sake and that you've already made a very reasonable offer that they chose to turn down.

Your hand had been forced in all this.

lljkk Sat 19-Oct-13 18:49:53

They can't have one lump sum.
(Do I need to shout that??)
The best they should hope for is to get back a fixed percentage of their investment, which sadly for them, seems to have lost value.
Can you even get a mortgage to cover the £70k if the property has lost that much value??
I can't believe how badly they are treating you. sad sad
If you are resolved to sell, not least to cut ties with them, then your conveyancing solicitor would be able to advise about what their fair share of the proceeds or debt would be (be able to advise without you spending too much money for that advice, I mean).
I'm with others that in the ideal world you would refuse to sell, go all heartless & force them to sue you. I don't know if I could do that, either.

Helliecopter Sat 19-Oct-13 18:52:30

Try to be strong. I know it's probably not much, but we're all behind you, as 5 pages of messages here should show you!! Any time you want to come here to rant about things or ask for support, you'll get it.

Kewcumber Sat 19-Oct-13 18:54:24

Offer them the choice of two ways of doing it:

1) the £70k is a loan and if they want it repaid then you convert the equity into a loan and they come off the deeds in order for you to remortgage (always assuming you will get a mortgage for that much)

2) they have a share of the equity and you will sell the house and they will get 70/purchase price x net proceeds after legal costs.

Just tell them to pick which they prefer. And sit it out until they decide.

Don't be bulldozed, just sit tight - they can't evict you and if your relationship with them is damaged anyway then you might as well get a sensible result.

Fluffycloudland77 Sat 19-Oct-13 18:54:30

It's a minefield renting to students though, they have higher expectations now & you've got HMO regs to comply with, I think someone's been watching homes under the hammer.

Looks like your step dad makes the bullets & your mother fires them.

If its going to get nasty be ruthless, she's not prepared to fight for her child but you can fight for yours. The legal board on here is very good for advice.

RandomMess Sat 19-Oct-13 18:54:38

Post with all the financial details of the house - type of deeds of ownership percent shares mortgage in whose name for how much etc etc over in legal.. There must be someone who can tell you on here what the law of loss and ownership is as a starting point.

Kewcumber Sat 19-Oct-13 19:05:04

Legally I'm pretty certain they would be viewed as part owners as they are named on teh deeds. If they loaned the money they would not be on the deeds unless they have a charge on the property and can force you to sell if you don't make repayments but that also needs to be registered with Land Registry. Assuming from what you have said that its not, then they are just part - owners and they get their share of the net proceeds. If they can persuade you to sell.

What happens if you say to them "Sorry its ridiculous to sell now at a loss, we will return your money when the market picks up"?

Fluffycloudland77 Sat 19-Oct-13 19:06:54

You're not the only one to go though this. When I met dh all my parents wanted was the keys to my flat.

Not really heard from them since.

Katz Sun 20-Oct-13 08:39:35

Surely it makes no difference to them if you remortgage and buy them out or if you sell to someone else. They get their money. In both cases their names would come off the mortgage. Can you not be a little devious. Tell them you have a seller. Tell then the price and simply work with your solicitor on just changing the mortgage from the 4 of you to you and your partner. Why should they know who the buyer is.

RandomMess Sun 20-Oct-13 09:09:09

What I don't understand is why they are on the mortgage as well as deeds? Are they helping to pay off the mortgage as well? Did you put any equity into the property at all? This is the detail that I'm not 100% sure on, who paid all the legal fees to buy etc. how long have you owned the property?

MadeOfStarDust Sun 20-Oct-13 09:26:18

If I were them at the start I would have insisted on my 70k being a charge on the deeds - not a loan as such, not an investment as such - then if you and your partner split up, I would get my money back on sale of the property....

If they went down this route, then if the house is sold they get their 70k (if the house is sold for more than 70k)- no sharing of any losses....

MokuMoku Sun 20-Oct-13 12:12:32

I'm glad you have decided to take legal advice on this. What a shitty situation to be in though sad

ilikecooking Mon 21-Oct-13 23:29:50

Please check to see if your house insurance has legal cover/protection included. A call to your insurer will tell you the answer. This could be your saviour.

Fluffycloudland77 Tue 22-Oct-13 07:51:29

Some employers run a free legal helpline for staff, it's a complicated area though.

I hope you don't have to sell it to a third party.

ettiketti Tue 22-Oct-13 07:58:30

Without going into detail as it would out me, something similar happened round with my MIL and stepFIL many years ago.

We had no choice but to move and relocate hundreds of miles to another area where I had some family. MIL was furious but there was no other way (she wanted far more than her fair share and sadly we had been foolish enough to think she was going to be reasonable when it came to this!).
DH hasn't spoken to her since and forbids me to. I go between guilt as we have children, and thinking she did this herself.
It was out of the blue, overnight, driven by stepFIL but she's a grown woman so no excuse.

DreamlessSleep Wed 30-Oct-13 11:17:17

Another update, we sought advice, technically we could put a fight for the money and split whatever we got for the house between the four of us but some one else has actually put a decent offer in for the house and we've decided to get rid as dh and I would no longer want the house anyway through all we've been through and give them whatever money we get for it. We don't want to be beholden to them at all.

tribpot Wed 30-Oct-13 11:26:54

So you're actually going to cough over their 70K, even though you will be making a loss on the house?

DreamlessSleep Wed 30-Oct-13 11:36:01

They won't get all of it. With fees and the fact it is now worth a fair bit less but we dont want them to be able to ever say we didnt try our best to get back the money.

Geckos48 Wed 30-Oct-13 11:42:27

So sorry you are in this position, they sound bloody awful

for what its worth, I think you have made the right call, just don't give them any reason to say you are beholden to them or owe them anything.

Walk away and, if it were me, I would cut all contact.

contortionist Wed 30-Oct-13 11:49:09

It's your money! Don't give away tens of thousands just to avoid feeling uncomfortable.

It sounds like you've taken advice about how the sale proceeds should be divided. So share that advice with your parents, and then follow it exactly. You don't owe them a penny more.

Saminthemiddle Wed 30-Oct-13 11:53:43

The same thing happened to me with my dad and stepmother but I had to sell as I got divorced. Our relationship was never the same again because they wanted more of the profit, which basically left me with nothing after fees. I think the best you can do is take that advice which is split the sale 4 ways and try and start again. I had to borrow the deposit from another family member for the next very small house but fortunately it went up in value so I got over it in the end, but our relationship was never the same. I ended up writing my dad a pretty heartfelt letter which he ignored! It sounds as though it is your step dad that is causing the trouble, not your mum, so maybe you can have a heart to heart with her somehow.
Never again would I get involved with family members and buying property, especially if step parents are involved.

tribpot Wed 30-Oct-13 11:53:54

Ah okay, so you are going to split the loss with them. Based on percentage of original investment, presumably. Seems bloody stupid unless they actually can make use of the capital loss (I am trying to sell a property for that reason but not evicting members of my family in order to do so!). But an even split of the proceeds allows you to separate your finances from these people in a way that is indisputable.

After that, the real damage to your relationship can be assessed. Quite frankly I would little more to do with them.

DreamlessSleep Wed 30-Oct-13 11:56:37

We need a clean break from them. We will never go into anything like this again.

RandomMess Wed 30-Oct-13 12:43:48

I can really understand your need to draw a line underneath it all and move on without them.

How much are you going to lose out on sad

DreamlessSleep Wed 30-Oct-13 13:08:40

We lose the 10 thousand we put in as deposit and then we lose the 16 we've paid off. Plus fees and surveys we previously had done.

DreamingAlice Wed 30-Oct-13 13:24:03

No no no noooooo. Please don't give them more than they are due. Please follow the advice you were given and split it accordingly. Are they really suggesting they want you to wind up with absolutely nothing- no house and no money? You are not beholden to them- nobody is coming out of this well!! Your relationship is irrevocably damaged as it is, I fail to see how getting a fair split of the money will make it worse. sad

RandomMess Wed 30-Oct-13 13:35:44

At what point will the agreeement about how to split it be put down in a legally binding document/agreement. I'd say the right things for now and then change my mind when it comes to the last minute - that is far too much to lose!!!

tribpot Wed 30-Oct-13 13:35:44

What? Why? Are you still trying to pay them their 70 back? It doesn't work that way. Couldn't it actually look like money laundering? What was your solicitor's advice?

DreamlessSleep Wed 30-Oct-13 13:56:18

They wont get anywhere near 70 back its just not possible. We still have to see them occasionally for the sake of the kids and if we don't give them what we can it will be brought up all the time and made to feel guilty all the time. I dont need the hassle of that. We arent rushing into anything and it will be done properly.

3littlefrogs Wed 30-Oct-13 14:25:06

That is a very good point about money laundering.

Definitely get legal advice and everything in writing.

You really don't want a tax and police investigation on top of everything else.

Property "development" is a classic method of money laundering.

DreamlessSleep Wed 30-Oct-13 14:30:22

Cant see it being classed as money laundering, they wont be gaining anything from it.

tribpot Wed 30-Oct-13 14:49:15

But their loss is disproportionately small. I would double-check this before you go ahead.

DreamlessSleep Wed 30-Oct-13 14:50:53

Ok will do. I hadn't even thought of anything like that.

3littlefrogs Wed 30-Oct-13 14:51:20

They might be required to prove where the original £70K came from IF there was any kind of enquiry. It is unlikely, but not impossible.

showtunesgirl Wed 30-Oct-13 14:53:35

OP, I am worried that due to you understandably wanting to get this all over and done with as soon as possible, aren't thinking of your longterm future.

I really would get more legal advice if I were you.

DreamingAlice Wed 30-Oct-13 14:57:31

I don't see why you would let them anywhere near you or your kids after this, to be honest. They are forcing you to lose money on this house- and for what? So they can come away with less money than they put into it and you with NOTHING- and not only nothing but having suffered a LOSS.

This is quite possibly one of the insanest things I have come across in a long time and believe me, I have a crazy family.

DreamlessSleep Wed 30-Oct-13 15:07:40

They are doing it so they can take the money to do something else with it. But yes it does seem a crazy thing to have done.

Much as I'd love to cut them out completely abd have nothing to do with them again mum is a good grandparent and has a good relationship with the kids. There will definitely be a lot more distance between us though.

SteamWisher Wed 30-Oct-13 15:11:24

How is your mum a good grandparent when she's forcing you to sell which directly impacts on her grand children? hmm

moralimbecile Wed 30-Oct-13 15:14:14

Dreamless - where are you going to go?

DreamlessSleep Wed 30-Oct-13 15:18:21

We can stay at fil's if we haven't found a place to rent by then.

Yes this is shit behaviour by them but aside from this her role in their life has been a positive one. I'd just be cutting my nose off to spite my face to completely stop all contact.

Your mother is forcing your children out of their home and jepordising your financial well-being based on a mis-judged whim. She's not winning any awards in my book.

PastaBeeandCheese Wed 30-Oct-13 15:55:35

In the light of the advice you've had will they not reconsider your original offer to remortgage to give them their money provided they come off the deeds?

I still think this was an overly generous offer from you but it means you can keep your home and cut financial ties with them.

DreamlessSleep Wed 30-Oct-13 15:58:02

No they won't even consider it. I have explained it would be better to do that many times over.

tribpot Wed 30-Oct-13 16:14:55

It's so bizarre that they won't take the one option available that would actually allow them to recoup their whole 70K. This is because they want to hedge their bets, isn't it? Take all of their capital out of their investment but retain a 'life interest' in the asset so they can share in any eventual profit. Deeply odd. It's like they want to punish you for the house's value falling.

SteamWisher Wed 30-Oct-13 16:46:51

How bad does she have to get?
Man alive, you're taking this far too lightly tbh.

SteamWisher Wed 30-Oct-13 16:47:36

Moving house is one of the most stressful things one can go through and your mum is putting your family through it all for money.

bigbrick Wed 30-Oct-13 16:51:54

Just say ok you'll sell & move & that's it for them as grandparents. Let them show what they value in life

DreamlessSleep Wed 30-Oct-13 17:03:15

Their presence in our life will be cut right back, I physically cant even talk to them right now im so angry about their behaviour.

AdoraBell Wed 30-Oct-13 17:16:32

Moving house has been compared to divorcing in terms of the stress level.

How many times are you going to put yourselves and your DCs through that amount of stress to please your DM and step father.

What if you can't afford to rent, can you live permanently at FIL's? With all your belongings, without hindering his home life?

I know you think your DM is a good grandmother, but I don't believe it. I understand what you said about step father controlling DM, and maybe she needs help because of that, but losing large amounts of money you can't afford and having no home to live will not help her and it could negatively impact your DCs. That doesn't achieve helping DM either.

As for the potential money laundering aspect, a lot of money laundering enterprises actually appear to lose money. The people who are doing it don't care about those loses because the money they get back is clean. The financial authorities know that, that's why simply saying "but I lost money" won't satisfy them if they suspect wrong doing.

I'm really sorry you've been put in this position, but I agree that you are taking it far too lightly.

If I were in your position I would not only get legal advice but I would instruct a solicitor to write to them outlining the agreement you made with them and with a sensible proposal for resolving this. Like if they want the investment back they relinquish that which they invested in.

And if they cry "you set a solicitor on us" they tried to make you and the GCs homeless and out of pocket.

DreamlessSleep Wed 30-Oct-13 19:11:44

I know how stressful it is to move, this will be my 8th move. 1st time with the children though.

Nothing will be done from now on without consultation.

RandomMess Wed 30-Oct-13 19:38:52

I think if you do as they propose they will still complain that they didn't get all their money back, so you may as well split the equity remaining 70:10 in the way you put it in. Paying the mortgage is lost money anyway on a house that has gone down in value and presumably it was similar to the level of rent you were paying?

I really feel for you <<hugs>>

Oh Dreamless what a shit situation

While I understand your need to get it all done and dusted ASAP, it's possible that in years to come you will really really regret not looking after your own interests and doing this via a solicitor with the proper financial shareout if you do go through with the sale.

I disagree that you'd be cutting off your nose to spite your face if you cut all contact. Your own mother is breezily forcing you to sell your home, causing you to uproot your children and move them in with your FIL - hardly ideal IMO - and expecting you to take a massive financial hit in the process.

If this was my mother I would be telling her in no uncertain terms the effect her actions were having on her family (ie daughter and grandchildren) and that we would not be able to have any kind of relationship with her in the future.

Print this thread off and send it to her.

contortionist Wed 30-Oct-13 20:38:33

You're not nearly angry enough about this. Have you done the numbers and figured out how much your goodwill gesture would cost you?

contortionist Wed 30-Oct-13 20:43:54

Don't forget to include stamp duty, estate agents fees, conveyancing fees, surveys, searches etc.
Those are all costs of the transactions, and if you're paying them, it should be counted as part of your financial contribution.
Mortgage capital repayments too (but not interest).

RedBushedT Wed 30-Oct-13 20:48:24

I have nothing to add advice wise, but just wanted to say that I cannot believe how cruel your mother is being. Whether she is being pushed into it by your step father or not, I cannot imagine ever putting my children in such a position for the sake of money!
You have children, in what crazy world would you do this to them?! You wouldn't. Get angry, she is behaving atrociously.

Omg I can't believe they would do this and then beat you with it if you don't give them all of the 70k. I think from now to eternity I would be beating them with it.

Yes we have to move again, remember you forced us to sell the house and left us with nothing etc...

I'd have to question just how much they care for their DGC if they are happy to put them out of their home!!

3littlefrogs Wed 30-Oct-13 21:58:35

Do not underestimate the effect of moving house on young children. It is stressful for adults but much more so for children. I speak from experience.

DreamlessSleep Thu 31-Oct-13 06:45:32

I do know how damaging it can be, but hopefully it would be good for the family in the end as currently live 15 mins from town and will be able to move close to the centre so that will be helpful as I cant drive, and the school would be suitable for ds as has special teams and classes to help him (he has higher functioning autism.) Assuming I can get him in that is. Plus will be walking distance of mil and step-fil. (We get on well with them)

Inertia Thu 31-Oct-13 06:55:30

Why on earth are you rewarding your parents for making the children homeless by maximising their payback and continuing to see them? She isn't a good grandparent, she is making her own grandchildren homeless so she can make money. Like previous posters, I don't understand why you are putting the feelings of your swindling parents above the security of your children.

They are going to say that you have cheated them anyway, you do realise that don't you? They expect their full 70 k back so they are going to badmouth you regardless, so you may as well split the losses fairly.

In the absence of a contract, all losses in equity, EA fees, survey fees etc should be split 4 ways between the 4 investors. I would insist on having a contract drawn up to formalise how the money is split before you sell.

ginmakesitallok Thu 31-Oct-13 07:04:09

Have you actually made it clear to them that if you have to sell they will not get their money back?

Do not do anything without drawing up a solicitor's agreement - you should have one, they should have one.

Without that it will a) potentially be very costly b) you risk some sort of money laundering accusation. Money laundering is a 'go straight to jail do not pass go' situation. C) you will fall out with your money grabbing parents anyway as they will feel hard done by.

This is a case where a solicitor is worth however much they cost & will potentially save you a lot of money, stress & heartache.

DreamlessSleep Thu 31-Oct-13 07:25:01

Im definitely not putting them first but its just not that black and white.

they know they wont get it all.

Nothing will be done without talking to the solicitors first.

And do not screw yourself to give them extra. Your relationship is damaged anyway & they will not recognise you shafted yourselves to give them more - they will just whinge that you didn't give them 70k.

If you are going to sell they share the losses equally. (Assuming they have 50% share).

Good - I think you may find the solicitor has different advice. When are you seeing one?

Geckos48 Thu 31-Oct-13 07:34:01

The money should be at least split 70/10, if not more in your favour as you are paying the mortgage and they are not, I assume you can prove the mortgage payments?

I think you need to stop thinking about this as her daughter and start looking at as her someone you have bought a house with. Especially as you plan to have a relationship with her beyond this.

So any improvements you have made to the house you need to add onto your 10k, plus the fees you have had to pay etc etc etc.

Look at it like this, when you leave this house you could have

A) no home, no money

B) some deposit and full mortgage payments to show to another lender who, might WELL be happy to loan you the money for a new house.

This could actually work out really really well for you but you need to protect yourself and your children. If your mother and step-father don't like that, that really is there problem.

PastaBeeandCheese Thu 31-Oct-13 08:46:56

They are absolutely bonkers to turn down your offer of the full £70k back in return for coming off the deeds knowing that if you sell they get less.

You have made clear to them that this severs all financial ties so if you sell and they get less you won't be paying them anymore.

Do you have siblings? What do they think? Mine would be appalled if my parents were making me homeless.

I'm so sorry dreamless.

DreamingAlice Thu 31-Oct-13 08:47:55

Dreamless Is there something else you are not telling us here? I have huge sympathy with how stressful this all must be but I just don't get your reaction to this, since it seems to me that- to be blunt, you are not really acting like a normal person would respond in this situation, which worries me some.

DreamingAlice Thu 31-Oct-13 08:48:50

And I might add that what your parents are doing is also totally bonkers, which makes the whole thing combined really, really strange from where I am sitting. Sorry.

nauticant Thu 31-Oct-13 09:17:44

There can sometimes come the point when it's best to cut one's losses and run. Especially when it resolves a situation that's so stressful it's making someone ill.

So I think we should respect the OP's wishes if she wants to walk away. But she really ought to consult a solicitor and find out what kind of legally correct deal can be presented to the parents. I'd be surprised if the parents would have a legal right to be immune to the effects of negative equity.

giantpenguinmonster Thu 31-Oct-13 20:05:17

OP - I agree you should get legal advice ASAP. But I suspect that they will be entitled to a proportion of the proceeds. So if (for illustration) they put 70K in and you put 10K in and took a mortgage for 60K you would both own 50%. If you sold for less (say $120k) they would be entitled to less (60K).

But most importantly, if they intend to buy another property it will also have fallen in value compared to when you bought yours. So they will get more for their money. If you give them everything, they will actually be profiting for the situation IYSWIM.

Either they don't understand how investments work, or they are being really mean.

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