Why would anyone choose a newbuild over a character property for its looks?

(91 Posts)
treacleturkey Sun 28-Jul-13 17:14:37

I realise new builds are a lot better to run (economically) and so benefit the environment, but man, are they plastic and unattractive!!!

SirChenjin Sun 28-Jul-13 17:17:30

Availability of character properties v. new builds.



That do you?!

RVPisnomore Sun 28-Jul-13 17:18:48

Because people prefer the look and know that it has what they want, e.g. Garage, en-suite..........

I could go on.

Graceparkhill Sun 28-Jul-13 17:21:12

Also what are now "character " properties were once new builds!

MaryMotherOfCheeses Sun 28-Jul-13 17:21:27

Maintenance issues.

And some people actually like modern things. They're not all ugly you know.

treacleturkey Sun 28-Jul-13 17:21:47

thanks (but <<shudders>>)

treacleturkey Sun 28-Jul-13 17:23:13

But houses seemed to be made more solidly then........ today when you see newbuilds go up, its like they're just made of cardboard!

Antidote Sun 28-Jul-13 17:27:19

Some of us look at Victorian houses and come out in a cold sweat at the idea of gables, tiles, dank red brinks, chimney crevices, rising damp, ghastly stained glass feature windows & those horrid things you get on the ceiling. Bleugh.

Give me a nice newish house with a sensible roof & decent double glazing.

Disclaimer: childhood spent in Victorian heap with roof that leaked every other week.

Weegiemum Sun 28-Jul-13 17:31:40

We chose a new build for easiness. I'd become quite badly disabled with a neurological disorder which really affects my mobility. I needed a downstairs toilet, ground level entry, a shower cubicle (not over bath) and easy to adapt - we chose a house with a garage which can in future as my condition deteriorates as it probably will, be able to be converted into a bedroom with wet room that will take a wheelchair.

It's massively easier than our other house to keep clean, it's warmer (I suffer bad foot pain in the cold) and has enough bedrooms for dc to have one each - we're already entering teenage years!

It wasn't what we'd have chosen if our situation was different, in fact we still own our first house which was built in 1895 in the Outer Hebrides. But this is what it has taken to make our lives as easy as possible given unexpected circumstances.

VBisme Sun 28-Jul-13 17:34:07

New builds can be lovely, are cheaper to run and you don't have to buy in an estate, you can build one yourself.

In fact before DH and I bought the 14th century, inpractical yet gorgeous, house we currently live in we were looking at buying land and building a HoffHaus.

flow4 Sun 28-Jul-13 17:34:39

I've just bought a 1950s semi with three bedrooms, two living rooms, 2 solid fuel wood-burners, livable loft space, conservatory, patio, a large garden that's not over-looked at the back, plus a 12 foot deep lawn at the front, detached garage plus off-road parking for 2 cars... All that in a 'character' property would cost me three times as much.

Thesunalwayshinesontv Sun 28-Jul-13 17:34:41

What an appalling and unnecessary OP!

What are you trying say? That you find new builds so unattractive they make you shudder?

Neither interesting nor helpful.

Treagues Sun 28-Jul-13 17:34:42

I have a SIL who chose one because she wanted to rattle on endlessly about how easy it was to maintain compared to our old house, how much value it would put on quickly compared to our old house, how the neighbours were a cut above because naturally there's a certain income threshold on executive estates compared to our old house where any old gimmer might have been living for years
etc etc
SO that was fun.

MultumInParvo Sun 28-Jul-13 17:34:49

The gas bills.

Treagues Sun 28-Jul-13 17:35:38

I'd have a HufHaus in a second.

TheRealFellatio Sun 28-Jul-13 17:39:00

Some new builds are very attractive, and some period properties are dark, with low ceilings, small windows, and a rabbit warren layout, or built far too close to a busy road, or have no parking. No one category of house is automatically is perfect, or better than others, it just depends on the individual house.

noddyholder Sun 28-Jul-13 17:39:25

Depends on the house. Stommel houses are gorgeous compared to a pokey dark 2 up 2 down period house even with all its features in tact.

izzybobsmum Sun 28-Jul-13 17:39:54

I live in a new build. Three-storey stone townhouse, slate roof, dry stone walls down the side of the driveway and around the garden. It's beautiful, thanks for asking!

Bowlersarm Sun 28-Jul-13 17:40:26

I have several friends that living in fantastic new builds but they cost a lot of £££££££'s.

With a limited budget, I agree with you that I would rather have a Victorian 2 up 2 down than a modern 3 bed house which would probably be a similar price.

We live in a 'character' house dated around 1850, but DSes covert their friends newer houses.

pictish Sun 28-Jul-13 17:43:43

OP we chose a period property over new build for the same reasons, but it's just down to personal preference isn't it?
No need to be like that about it...people who buy new build like them just the same as you like yours.

FernandoIsFaster Sun 28-Jul-13 17:44:13

We moved from big 4 bed new build to not so big 3 bed old house and gas and electric bills have TREBLED!!

Hulababy Sun 28-Jul-13 17:44:34

I prefer a new build. I like modern exteriors and interiors.

I don't "do" character - fireplaces, draughty windows, uneven walls, darker decor and furniture, cellars and attics, etc. Just not for me.

I don't find many of them them particularly attractive either - obviously I like the look of a nice country cottage type (though wouldn't want to own one) and I like some older homes (type with a solid blue door in the middle, a bit like a regency style town house - but again not sure I'd own one - usually a money pit), but on the whole I prefer modern properties and modern interiors.

marriedinwhiteisback Sun 28-Jul-13 17:47:55

I was about to say what the real fellatio said. We are in the middle of moving from old to new(ish). The new house is going to be easier to run, the space is better laid out, and it's easier to make it look nice. It will also be easier to clean and maintain and security is less of a problem too. This was all DH's idea but it is growing on me and I can see the benefits and with the dc about to fly the nest we need less space and it makes sense

We live in a new build on a new estate. It cost a fraction of what a 'character' property would cost for the same size, is covered by the NHBC for 10 years, is covered by our builder for even more stuff for two years, is cheap to run and cosy in the winter. We have loads of space, a decent sized garden, and as everyone else is new as well no cliquey neighbours. Love. It.

DifferentNow Sun 28-Jul-13 17:54:20

We live in a new build and our next house will be a new build too. I like spooky old houses with a history but practically, I also like the clean, modern feel of a new build. The main reason though is that DH and I are crap at DIY and have neither the skill, or with 5 DC, the time to 'do-up' a house. It's nice not having to factor in costs for tradesmen or worry about big maintenance bills.

TallulahBetty Sun 28-Jul-13 18:28:15

Don't new builds have warranties? That is very attractive.

Jan49 Sun 28-Jul-13 18:59:54

I prefer older houses but worry about the maintenance for a Victorian house so we've always bought 1930s semis, a compromise really.

When I bought my first house in the 1990s all our friends seemed to be keen to buy new builds, which surprised me. A lot of them seemed to see an old house as second hand and like buying second hand clothing and they wanted a house that had never been "used" by anyone else. confused

I like old features that tell you things about how people lived in the past and have character.

I think the only new build I'd consider buying would be a flat. For a house I don't like anything newer than the 1950s.

noisytoys Sun 28-Jul-13 19:05:03

Most of my friends live in new builds and they are lovely, cheap to maintain, don't need doing up etc

The only 1 thing that made me go for an older property instead of a new build was the issue of storage. In my older flat I have a huge loft space, floor to ceiling airing cupboard, alcoves in every room, built in cupboards. Non of that is in my friends new builds and although we have the same amount of rooms, my flat is bigger and we have a hallway with doors leading off that rather than doors leading off the living room. It makes a huge difference in terms of how spacious it feels

VelmaDaceDinkley Sun 28-Jul-13 19:16:15

My house is 100 years old with period features, old sash windows and high ceilings.

It's also:

dark and dingy
freezing cold and draughty in winter
there are patches of damp
there isn't a right angle in the place which makes decorating difficult
it is difficult to find furniture to fit the odd dimensions
things are always going wrong with it
it has been subject to some dodgy DIY over the 100 years which needs correcting
it's difficult to clean
there aren't enough plug sockets, and the ones we do have are in random locations

I can see the attraction of a modern house TBH grin

Englishroses Sun 28-Jul-13 19:35:27

availability is a big issue locally. All the olds are enjoying the character properties and have no intention of leaving. I blame the baby boomers for these issues!

timidviper Sun 28-Jul-13 19:45:17

As others have said there are pros and cons. Our house is 100 years old and needs a lot of maintenance, heating, etc but it is far more spacious than a modern equivalent.

One thing I loved when DCs were younger was that they could thunder about upstairs without us worrying about the noise where new houses aren't as solid

MarshaBrady Sun 28-Jul-13 19:46:53

I love Georgian very much. Big, square, light rooms with high ceilings.

Also love modern design, mostly due to the amount of light because of all that glass.

apatchylass Sun 28-Jul-13 19:50:56

Never lived in a new build but tried to buy one once. I was attracted by the straight walls. I got so fed up of Victorian terraces - fireplace on one wall, radiator on another, so nowhere for the furniture to go. And alcoves that didn't quite fit anything.

New builds have fitted wardrobes, en-suites, off street parking etc. I don't think they're necessarily ugly, just modern. in 50 years time our grandchildren will be cooing over how cute and quaint all the noughties houses are!

MarshaBrady Sun 28-Jul-13 19:52:59

They do have to be designed however, with thought to space and light.

purplewithred Sun 28-Jul-13 19:58:02

I did a self-build. It is beautiful. It will probably carry on being considered beautiful for about another 20 years, then start to look at bit old fashioned, then look really naff for about 50 years, then suddenly become period and quaint and beautiful again.

solveproblem Sun 28-Jul-13 19:58:59

Maybe some people don't like rising damp and mild prone properties?

BewitchedBotheredandBewildered Sun 28-Jul-13 20:13:32

I live in a very characterful Victorian terrace which is so pretty that people stop in the street to take photos. The walls are built of rubble and the lovely original sash windows are single glazed and would cost a fortune to refurb or replace. If you want to hang a picture you have to excavate a 6 inch square hole and rebuild it before you can get a picture hook to stay in! It is hideously inefficient in terms of layout and running costs.
Our business is building modernist, modular houses in a factory. They take about 12 weeks to build and 2 weeks to install and per square foot are cheaper than bricks and mortar. Ours are built of structural insulated panels, steel, glass and oak. I can't wait to move into one of ours, hopefully this winter.

BikingViking Sun 28-Jul-13 20:18:04

I'm with Antidote on this one - right down to the childhood spent living with continuous renovation, damp etc.

I live in a flat built in 2006 now and bloody love it. Takes me an hour or two tops to do a weekly clean (which I did this morning then the dc's and I spent the day at the beach smile )

Ideally you should always live in the ugliest building in the immediate vicinity - that way you can look out of your windows at all the much prettier neighbour buildings without having to see your own grin

BikingViking Sun 28-Jul-13 20:21:10

Also, I didn't have the heating on at all over winter and we were fine (could even wear t-shirts inside when the windows weren't open) and it gets pretty cold here (Scandinavia). I still have traumatic flashbacks from my childhood and going to bed wrapped up virtually in coat, hat and scarf despite the heating being whacked up...

Viviennemary Sun 28-Jul-13 20:28:41

I like a period house as much as anybody else. But some aren't that attractive and some new builds especially the more expensive ones can be nice. It's all a matter of taste.

notamumlol Sun 28-Jul-13 20:29:51

I absolutely despise period houses

PlatinumStart Sun 28-Jul-13 20:30:08

I have a Victorian town house - four floors lots of stairs, love it but not particularly practical.

I am currently renting a new build elsewhere and have to say though its pretty dull looking, ensuites for every bedroom, fitted wardrobes and large rooms make it a very attractive option

Bonsoir Sun 28-Jul-13 20:33:27

Lots of old properties are horrid, impractical, expensive to maintain... And new builds can be lovely.

MrsBungle Sun 28-Jul-13 20:34:39

I moved from a Victorian to a new build - well, it's 20 years old so not that new! I liked my old house. I also love my new house. I like modern. My new build is nice. It's double fronted, nice red bricks. It doesn't look plastic at all.

Themobstersknife Sun 28-Jul-13 20:36:39

Shudder all you like.
Makes my gorgeous, spacious, economical, environmentally sound newbuild house, with plentiful storage, lovely bright interiors and large rooms cheaper, because of all the shudderers like you.

Me, I could never see the appeal of period features. But each to their own.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHopeful Sun 28-Jul-13 20:50:54

I'm a bit baffled by everyone's spacious new builds (maybe you have a bigger budget).

We bought a Victorian house because a modern house on a similar budget would have had one less bedroom. Apart from the master all the bedrooms would have been pokey. Also there was no storage anywhere and the gardens were titchy.

I think for us to afford a spacious new build comparable to ours it would be double the cost (minimum).

I love the period features, the layout is fantastic and its so spacious but it is freezing in the winter.

Bunbaker Sun 28-Jul-13 20:52:39

I grew up in and Edwardian house, moved to a Victorian terrace house then to a couple of newish houses. Then we had a 200 year old house that was beautiful and full of character... and damp/woodworm/mice/insufficient insulation. It needed rewiring, new plumbing and a new boiler and cost a fortune to heat. It was a lovely house, but the maintenance was eye wateringly expensive so we moved to a newish house - one of four individually built and not on an estate. Our utility bills were halved immediately and this house is so easy to maintain and clean that I'm afraid that for practical reasons I will stick to newer houses.

nkf Sun 28-Jul-13 20:54:15

I would love a newbuild. I have spent far too many hours on old property. Moneypits, the lot of them. I long for a small, easy to eat retirement home. I can be the character.

Themobstersknife Sun 28-Jul-13 21:01:35

WhenSheWasBad I suspect it depends where you live. Older properties where I live are few and far between and therefore sought after and more expensive.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Sun 28-Jul-13 21:02:30

newbuilds are only plastic and unattractive if they are plastic and unattractive, the same way that character properties are only dingy and damp if they are dingy and damp. My newbuild isn't very attractive but it is more attractive than the rows of pit houses and the badly rendered '30s semis that my area is littered with. There are some lovely old properties around here but they cost about £350k more than mine for the same space. I don't have a spare £350k, and I like to be warm. My old Edwardian house had an immersion heater that could only be used if the burglar alarm was set confused. I can't be arsed with stuff like that and i have sufficient character of my own, I don't need to depend on my house for it.

Themobstersknife Sun 28-Jul-13 21:02:34

Nkf I agree. I am the character. I don't need to buy it in a house. ;-)

celticclan Sun 28-Jul-13 22:02:07

I don't think all new builds are bland. I live in a Victorian house, inside its quirky but from the outside its quite unattractive, new builds of a similar size are much nicer looking.

BewitchedBotheredandBewildered Sun 28-Jul-13 23:48:40

Have a look at the Farnsworth House by Mies Van de Rohe.

You may not like it but it's far from bland, and was built in 1951!

Earthworms Sun 28-Jul-13 23:56:45

I lived in a gorgeous character cottage. Rented, thank god.

Rising damp, falling damp, freezing cold, cost a blood fourune to heat. And insure contents. Mysterious smells, mysterious leaks.....

I love my soulless new build.

Only rented tbf, but I'm in a new build now and it's ugly as sin, but far less of a problem that previous character properties have been. No draughts, damp or leaking roofs here. It's blissful.

Gunznroses Mon 29-Jul-13 00:10:35

I don't want a house with 'character', the only character it needs to have is mine and my family. Im not interested in all the scores of people who previouly owned it, how they lived, what they did to it blabla, i just want to know it as it is now. 'Character' in a house makes me feel uncomfortable.

Mimishimi Mon 29-Jul-13 00:38:16

I grew up in a 'character' cottage. My dad spent nearly all his spare time doing maintenance work on it (when he wasn't doing it on the car).

Jaynebxl Mon 29-Jul-13 07:24:22

"What an appalling and unnecessary OP!

What are you trying say? That you find new builds so unattractive they make you shudder?

Neither interesting nor helpful."

I guess because the OP is proud and keen for us to believe know they live in a period property.

We have just moved from a 110 year old Victorian terrace to a relatively new house that's 25 years old. I loved the quirky character of the ols house but you can't heat character or stretch out into its space.

In moving to a newer house we have gained:
En suites on 2 bedrooms
An extra bedroom
utility room
Less things that don't work
Smooth walls
More options for placing furniture without all the alcoves and nooks and crannies
Less draughts
Our own drive
Walls you can hang pictures on without needing industrial tools

We have lost:
A bit of quirkiness
Original fireplaces

Sounds like a good deal to me.

formicadinosaur Mon 29-Jul-13 11:59:23

It's tricky to get permission to knock an old house about sometimes. I love old character but also love other eras too.

noddyholder Mon 29-Jul-13 12:12:59

I definitely prefer the feel of old houses but you have to have the time and money if you want to eliminate draughts etc and update insulation and finish. Where I live they are definitely bigger but there is a lack of decent modern here. 70s and 60s houses are amazing but I looked for nearly 2 years for one and only one came up for sale and the people decided to stay in it in the end! It is not competition!

propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS Mon 29-Jul-13 21:15:20

I love an executive new build. I like open plan living so appreciate a huge kitchen diner with family living area. I like a utility room, a walk in wardrobes, multiple ensuites, a playroom. Basically all the modern touches that make life luxurious and comfortable. Plus a well insulated, warm house is a real bonus.

mumblechum1 Mon 29-Jul-13 21:27:10

I must admit there's a newbuild up the road which caught my eye today: www.primelocation.com/for-sale/details/29672281?search_identifier=ca64693f249aa19d7a661a1fbd4937e0

We always used to buy old houses but are currently in a meh 50s house which has all the drawbacks of a character house (damp, wonky windows, smoky fireplaces) but without the character grin

mumblechum1 Mon 29-Jul-13 21:29:20

Oh yes, and our characterless 50s box costs a bloody fortune to heat angry.

Biggest mistake of my life, buying this place.

propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS Mon 29-Jul-13 21:42:51

Mumble, that newbuild is beautiful.

mumblechum1 Mon 29-Jul-13 21:44:56

I know. There are three there, the original Victorian house has been done up and the other two have been built in the grounds. None of them has sold yet though......

Sidge Mon 29-Jul-13 21:50:25

I'd much rather have a (decent) newbuild.

"Character" properties can often be cold, draughty, expensive to buy and maintain.

I'd much rather have a clean, bright, spacious and insulated house than have to live with exposed brickwork, beams, draughty fireplaces and doors and windows that don't fit properly.

mumblechum1 Mon 29-Jul-13 21:57:42

yy Sidge I'm with you on the exposed brickwork and beam thing. They never look properly clean imo, probably simply because they're dark.

OrangeLily Mon 29-Jul-13 22:10:58

Did you mean to be so rude?

My new build is great because:

1. Non-traditional/interesting layout.
2. Very clean compared to our old builds
3. Minimum upkeep
4. Light and airy
5. Very warm
6. Heating bills are so much lower
7. Easier to get a mortgage on
8. Lower deposit
9. Double glazing awesomeness
10. Blank canvas - this is OUR house and I don't have to fix any previous owners' ideas or mistakes
11. Your can choose exactly what you want in your bathroom/kitchen/floors/fittings to your own personal taste.

celticclan Tue 30-Jul-13 00:35:11

Character comes from the people living in the house not its past.

noddyholder Tue 30-Jul-13 09:57:08

I have been in loads of houses with lots of character where the owners are dull as dishwater. The character was still there though in the house. I don't know why people get so upset on these threads. Modern houses are different and have their own style if they are well built and designed. But there is no way a bog standard barratt home has the character of a georgian house even if stephen fry is living in it! I prefer old but can see the attraction of all the 'advantages' of new houses. I spend my time renovating old houses to bring them up to that standard though so know it can be done but not everyone wants the hassle or expense. I don't know why some of the brilliant designers we have in this country can't tackle the wimpy home style and give it some individuality.

nkf Tue 30-Jul-13 10:19:05

It would.be nice to see some interesting modern building in the commercial sector. Most new build companies seem to copy old styles. The modern townhiuse look.

noddyholder Tue 30-Jul-13 10:22:58

Definitely the current ones are in general very dull.

minibmw2010 Tue 30-Jul-13 10:23:59

That's a stunning new build Mumble, big price though, even in Bucks which can be v pricey.

Ours is a new build (or was 9 years ago). It's great. It's a double fronted red brick house with lovely sash windows and I love it. Yes it's on a development but who cares. The only thing we had to work on was the garden as they left us a huge slope but we got that fixed and now it's ideal for us. smile Plus I never hear the neighbours so sound proofing is good.

MrsBucketxx Tue 30-Jul-13 10:28:19

I love my new build as the developer has used a traditional exterior with modern interior.

the whole range is the same.

the only thing lacking imo is the gardens, tiny plots on everyone.

Potterer Tue 30-Jul-13 10:38:14

Ladies and Gentlemen I give you Poundbury

Duchy of Cornwall Poundbury

New can be stunningly beautiful. I love period properties but where I live they are few and far between; people seem reluctant to part with them grin We chose a house built in 1999 due to motorway links for Dh's job, layout, space, number and size of the bedrooms an perhaps most importantly what we could afford.

noddyholder Tue 30-Jul-13 10:42:39
noddyholder Tue 30-Jul-13 10:44:03

God I think those are horrible! I don't think people want pseudo period they want contemporary design. Mock anything rarely works but in Europe they seem to be able to do it and cheaper than us!

MarshaBrady Tue 30-Jul-13 10:49:37

I love modern design. Usually big sheets of glass and loads of light, with clean lines. Good spaces.

Not sure if new build has become a thing that specifically means the townhouse look.

minibmw2010 Tue 30-Jul-13 10:51:05

Poundbury looks lovely but I heard its a tricky place to live. Lots of rules and regulations that Prince Charles is very much a stickler for which I think I'd find hard to live with.

MarshaBrady Tue 30-Jul-13 10:51:30

Modern and Georgian with modern interior are my favourites.

Arisbottle Tue 30-Jul-13 11:00:14

We live in a new build which we designed ourselves .

It is not everyone's cup of tea but I love it. To buy a period house with this much space, the outdoor land and extras would be millions .

We have huge windows to take in the amazing view.

noddyholder Tue 30-Jul-13 11:01:57

Aris that is what I will do when I eventually settle!

Turnipinatutu Tue 30-Jul-13 12:00:49

An individual new build, that you have designed yourself is a totally different thing IMO to a mass produced new build on an estate.
The article that Noddy linked to outlines this well.

I probably wouldn't buy anything newer than 50's, as I like solid walls, fireplaces, floorboards and a good sized garden. Yes these things do have disadvantages, but I love living with them. I also dislike square boring rooms and love quirky features and nooky storage spaces.
However, if I had the money and could find a good plot, I'd design and build my own house in a heart beat!

As has been stated, some people don't give a monkeys about the characteristics that come with old houses and some even dislike them. They love their easy to clean, cheap to run, modern looking homes.

I have plenty of friends who happily live on new build estates and I'd never insult their choice of home, just as they don't look down on my dusty, drafty one.....grin

EstelleGetty Tue 30-Jul-13 12:08:07

Ours is newish, built in the late 90s, I think, and i was totally against a new build to begin with but love it now. It's ok to look at from outside, but the interiors were done by an Italian company who've given it a very Italian mid-century kind of look, all clean lines, warm woods. We got to keep the sofas when we moved in too, and they're very elegant burnt orange ones.

We rented in Victorian tenements before, and they were lovely to look at, but I wouldn't go back. Way too cold and expensive to maintain.

Bunbaker Tue 30-Jul-13 12:44:43

"I also dislike square boring rooms and love quirky features and nooky storage spaces"

And I dislike quirky features and nooky storage spaces. I like square boring rooms because they are so much more versatile and usually have more light in them. I hate dark rooms and poky spaces.

tabled Tue 30-Jul-13 12:47:07

period houses don't equal poky or dark ime!

Turnipinatutu Tue 30-Jul-13 14:11:05

I can see this thread turning into a complete bunfight as everyone defends their own likes and dislikes! grin

FCEK Tue 30-Jul-13 14:37:00

I've seen a new build I like. It's a bit over budget but then the cost of doing up an older house to suit our tastes would be the same

WetGrass Tue 30-Jul-13 16:04:28

We've moved from a character to a new build. We spent 2K redoing the plumbing at the last house. We're spend

WetGrass Tue 30-Jul-13 16:06:02

We've moved from a character to a new build. We spent 2K redoing the plumbing at the last house. We're spending 2K on original art and handmade quirky furniture on arrival in this place. I think the newbuild will end up with more character than the last moneypit place.

treacleturkey Sat 03-Aug-13 17:38:58

To be honest my Victorian IS cold and draughty in winter, but i love the fireplaces, bay windows, high ceilings etc. No two walls are aligned with each other!

Didnt mean to offend others btw!! smile

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