My f**king ex-builder. Part 2

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

I just spoke to a solicitor to discuss a point regarding calling a professional witness/getting a professional report from the council. The guy asked the name of the builder then said there was a conflict of interest as they had involvement in a case with him 3 years ago (2006) regarding a building dispute. Obviously not able to go into any details, or whether they represented him or other party (presume him if conflict of interest), but he said 'much as I would like to help, I feel we would not be able to involve ourselves, I am very sorry' and then recommended two colleagues from other firms to advise me.

Oh dear. So not only was he crap, but he has a reputation there. Or, am I being unfair in presuming he was at fault that time? Is he just unfortunate? A coincidence.

We may well have to actually get a formal solicitor involved to repreesent us now I think. I think its not just a case of this guy being a bit crap at his job. I actually am concerned he might do some damage to a property so serious he could hurt some-one or damage their property beyond repair/to the tune of 10s of K. I actually think he needs something more serious done. I wish I knew what.

Solicitor said we would be looking at hundreds of pounds for representation, before he realised who the builder was, but would need to meet to discuss so could not put a formal figure on this.

We will not get any money bac from him even if/when we win as he has none, we are certain of that, so any money we spend will be dead money. But it would be worth it wouldn't it?

[MollieO]

I think you have to consider what you want to achieve by taking legal action if there is no hope of recovering anything from him. It may be a case of spending good money after bad. Whilst it might make you feel better it won't actually change anything. Have you got legal expenses cover on your household insurance? If so it would be worth discussing with your insurers to see whether they would cover the costs.

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

We have legal expenses cover but alas does not cover building work !

We are counterclaiming, he is suing us for some obscure amount for some unknown reason, which we have asked to be clarified. And in response, we are defending the claim, and counterclaiming for the costs we incurred to repair the damage he caused to our property. There is no point not counterclaiming. We need to defend our claim anyway so while we are at it. We were going to sue him anway, but not until our second baby is born (due any day). Our hand is forced now rather than later.

Ideally of course, I want the money back. In the absence of that, I will get an injunction or charge or whatever it is on his house, or send the bailifs around. Or make him formally declare himself bankrupt/fold his alleged business, whatever.

In the absence of any money, I want to try really hard to ensure he does not work again. Someone has to stop people like him screwing over normal people who have no money to waste, or worse. Maybe a few hundred pounds is worth that?

I also want to stand up in front of him in court and get my time with him. I want to see him stand there and lie and be caught out.

He is not using a solicitor, and his argument/case, if you can call it that, is pathetic. Which worries me about this other case. If he has used one of the biggest local solicitors to represent him, it must have been bigger than this case which is small claims.

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

And I have to say mollieO, this joke of a builder has caused us so so much stress and heartache, that making me feel better will change a lot. Not financially, but we realised when we had to spend thousands to rectify his mistakes and finish the job he messed up, that actually our wellbeing and happiness was more important than money (well we had to think that as it has used up all our savings/equity).

And also, the potential for revenge. Very. Appealing.

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

OMG, I have done a bit of looking into the builder. I know, i know should have done it before.

I had not considered checking him out at companies house. But I just have.

He registered his business 23 March 2009. Around the same time we made contact with him re our loft. He was advertised, but it appears he registered literally the week we spoke to him.

Now, is that a coincidence, or what?

Oh, and he is a Ltd Co. I did not realise what that means. and now I do. Means he is liable for nought right?

Is there anyway I can find out if he has had other businesses? He is not registered, individually, as bankrupt/insolvent, just checked that.

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

This man is clearly up to something.

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

.

[NoseyNooNoo]

Can the general public do a Directors Search at Companies House - it will list his directorships, those he has now and those he has stepped down from (i.e. previous companies). They tend to go back a few years.

[Northernlurker]

So - he took and fucked up your job at exactly the same time he decided to become a limited company? Uh - yes you're right he is clearly up to something!

[fanjolina]

Blimey Pavlov. If he has past form for fucking up questionable workmanship, then surely your architect shouldn't have recommended him?

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

I am going to speak to the architect tomorrow about it. He does not always do plans for him, so i am guessing this was a job that did not involve him, perhaps he did not know? I cannot possibly imagine that he would have recommended him if he knew at all, he has a good reputation, which is already now slightly tarnished with a few builders as he is linked to this mess, and he has happily provided a report outlining the builder's fault/mistake without charge for us to use in court.

Northerlurker - i have checked the dates that we were first put in touch with the builder through a trade website (rated tradesmen), i requested some builders contact me and he made contact on 11 April. He had registered his company just prior to that, so while it is clear now he was not specifically intending to screw us personally, he had clearly not been trading for 9 years as he claimed, at least not under that name and therefore misrepresented himself as an experienced tradesman. According to the register, he is not linked with any change of name/insolvency/bankruptcy in the last 20 years relating to this company, but i don't know if that means he has not had another company go bust. I cannot find anything that will let me search him as an individual. I might phone them and ask. I don't mind paying a small fee.

His insurance documents as a builder were valid from before that though, they were valid from Nov 2008 i beleive? I have paid a fee to monitor his business with companies house, any documents he files i will be notified of, like if he goes bust, if he changes his business name that kind of thing.

I did not know i could check all this stuff at the time, but said to DH we wanted to use him so we would have probably beleived anything he said anyway, such as 'i used to work self employed and have just started a formal business'. We wanted to beleive him i think as he seemed to genuine. It is only as things progressed badly we realised that it is all so wrong.

I just wonder how many times he has done this before now.

I shall find out if i can get access to who the directors are etc

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

I also spoke to trading standards/consumer advice - fat lot of good they were, clearly a private company with targets to meet, could not get me off the phone quick enough, or it was his break time. He whizzed through what i needed to do without listening to a word i was saying, it was a formal response to a generic builder/services issue. I tried to tell him i had some concerns, and that the court side of things was in hand, and he was like 'this is what i need to advise you..blah blah etc, and that anyone can trade as a builder, hope that helps, call us with this reference no. if you need to ask any questions, bye' . Was not told anything i did not already know!

I would really like to find out if he has done this before, as if so, it might be fraud?. Hence reason i want to keep an eye on his business.

Inspector Pavlov....9 months too late!

[racmac]

I have been following your story but not commented before - he really does put builders to shame.

My advice would be to represent yourself - dont bother with a Solicitor - its small claims and the District Judges are used to people representing themselves - they tend to bend over backwards to help them.

As long as you stick to the dates for filing info you will be ok.

Whereabouts are you in the court proceedings - has there been a directions hearing yet?

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

racmac- we have the allocations forms to complete and fill out. We have a report from the SE/architect already, which we need to submit and are debating whether we need a formal professional report from the building inspection site visits. I have an email saying pretty much what I need, and we might incur more charges to get a formal report from building control, we are thinking the email might be enough as it is a professional response to information request. We only got that form this week.

I think we will continue to represent ourselves, you are right there i think.

The builder we used to remedy the work, he thinks he might not even be a builder but perhaps a roofer trying his luck elsewhere. He is advertised in YELL i noticed, as a 'loft conversion specialist' HA!

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

It is good to know the judges will want to help us. Does that apply even though we are the defendants with a counterclaim, rather than the initial claimant?

[fanjolina]

This is what I don't get Pav - his work was so shoddy that your second builder didn't even believe that he was a proper builder.
And yet he came on a recommendation from a guy deeply involved in building in your local area.

Maybe something went seriously wrong in the past couple of years and he used to be OK? A drinking problem maybe?

[fanjolina]

gah - missed your posts as I was feeding the baby.

[racmac]

Well the allocation questionnaire is easy enough to complete - any problems then ask - are the proceedings taking place in your local court because you can ask to have them moved.

Yes the Judges bend over backwards to help litigants in person - at least that has always been my experience.

The Judge may order a joint expert report so beware - you would have to agree an independent 3rd party who would inspect the work etc and make his report - the Judge MAY decide your report isnt enough

It is likely that once the Judge receives the allocation questionnaires he willcall you both to Court for a directions hearing where all that can be discussed.

You will want to argue to the Judge that the report is adequate - it is an independent person, it is pointless incurring more expense in this matter - it has already cost so much and to add to the expense of Court litigation would be pointless. You may wish to allow that report because the Court will give a lot of weight to it.

At that hearing you will need to agree dates to exchange witness statements from everyone involved - ie your architect, new builder, you, husband - everyone you intend to call as a witness. Start preparing your wtiness statement with all the relevant points - its basically a statement with Court heading at top, numbered paragraphs - spaced well so easy to read and a statement of truth at the bottom.

You may know all this in which case i apologise! Any questions ask away!

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

Fanjolina I had the posts removed as I inadvertantly disclosed my profession in more detail than i wished!

I had said though that DH said very similar to you, that he felt something had occured, possibly as recently as while he was working with us, for him to be so bad but for SE to recommend still. He wondered if he was suffering from a mental illness of some kind either known or unknown, but possibly alcohol too.

racmac the expert witness I have used, his report, demonstrates work that has already been rectified as well as work that has not yet been rectified. Not sure a new independent report would evidence those changes as they are now changed? Of course that report would however still demonstrate that certain errors are still there according to the plans. Who would be liable for the costs of a joint report? would that be a joint cost? The report I have already is from the SE who worked for/with both us and builder, rather than us specifically.

So, if/when we are called to court to discuss this with the judge, will we have to stand up in court, will it be in an office, will the builder be present? I would much prefer to meet him face to face in a formal court setting rather than in an office as he is quite intimidating.

We have already put in our defence, do we need to break this down to individual statements then for each of us all? Will the SE have to attend in person? We were considering just using his expert report/letter of statement.

Oh this is so complicated !

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

racmac is it better to ask the SE and the building control surveyor and the new builder to be witnesses in court, or would the written report of the SE and from building control be enough?

I mean, we are doing all this, and I do not even know for sure yet why he is claiming that we owe him any money as he has not made this clear, whether he is saying we owe him money from the original quote, or whether we owe him more money because he had to lower the floor (i guess it does not matter really as we need to evidence the bad workmanship etc for our counterclaim)

[fanjolina]

Pavlov - if you haven't already, you should also include details in your counterclaim that the electrician is withholding your Part-P certificates, due to non-payment from the builder.

[PavlovtheForgetfulCat]

fanjolina the electrician has now said he will deliver the part p certs, and we will pay him what we owe him (for seperate work,to test our electrics and change a light) and we will do a 'swap'. He said he did not want to give them to us until we paid him due to the problem with the builder, and we do not want to pay, until we recieve the part p certs, so he will be coming around. But, we have tried to contact him and he is being evasive, even though we have his money sat here waiting for him.

A good point, and we have emails from him to confirm his stance on this.

Also - another thing has happened. We keep losing boiler pressure - spoke to plumber on phone (ours) who said it sounds likely to be a leak in the pipes somewhere, this is most likely to occur when a radiator is removed/replaced and/or new pipes are laid. This really worries me, as it is going to potentially mean a)ripping up our brand new carpets in our hallway, and in our loft room b)ripping up the floor in the loft for the third or fourth time c) chipping out plaster to get to the pipework he run up a wall, messing up new paintwork/woodwork/plastering.

I am not sure it is ever going to end!

[Natalia175]

Pavlov
I have a lot of simpathy for you as we are in the similar situation. We are considering taking to court our builders who did not complete our kitchen extension. Talked to some legal advisors and chances of getting any money back are not good, as our builders are also only LTd company, so we can only get compensation as long as their company is in good cash position.
Anyway, you asked where you can check on your builder. www.registry-trust.org.uk will show you if he was taken to court by others already and has not paid (so little chance of getting your money back). You have to pay £30 to do your search. Otherwise, it sounds you got all information on him and his other companies already from the companies house website.
We are planning to make a claim against our builders (small court claim as we want to represent ourselves). We live in SW and also made use of a free drop-in legal advice sessions (run by South West London Law centres). We found it very useful. Let me know if you need more infor
Good luck

[racmac]

sorry Pavlov been away for weekend

The Court hearings will be in a small informal room - you will sit opposite the builder or his representative(if he turns up)

The DJ wont allow him to be intimidating - when he is outside court room sit away from him and ignore him

Yes a joint report costs would be split between you which is why you want to argue for your own report to be allowed on the basis of what you have already said. Make it clear who the report writer is - i wonder whether he would do you a covering letter confirming his expertise - ie he has been doing job for 25 years and these are his qualifications - it will help to show Court that he is not some bloke from the pub you have hired

Dont worry about the statements yet and no you wouldnt need one fromthe person that has prepared the report although if he has anything else to say you may wish - ask the Judge for advice - you can always prepare the statements and not call them as a witness.

The final court hearing will be more formal

if you get stuck on the witness statements i can always help you - but once you have directions hearing let us know