School Strikes 26th March - Invoicing the LEA

(433 Posts)
Bexinder Fri 21-Mar-14 11:47:46

Just wanted to share what I'm doing, and I wonder if we can get some sort of campaign going. Lots of UK schools are closed due to teacher's industrial action next Wednesday 26th March. Given that we parents have absolutely no leeway when it comes to taking children out of school during term time and will be hit with heavy fines per child if we do without permission, I'm invoicing my local education authority for failing to provide education on this day. They haven't asked MY permission to allow the school to close.....Now I'm not expecting them to pay this at all, but I am wanting to cause a stink. They can close the school over the pay and pensions row, but I can't take my children out of school for a funeral.
Sorry - rant over... if anyone wants to copy the invoice, let me know and I'll post it. Thanks!

TheOriginalSteamingNit Fri 21-Mar-14 11:48:48

Don't be so stupid.

This is a bit petty isn't it? I know strikes are anoying but come on - you'll just look a bit daft.

Bexinder Fri 21-Mar-14 11:51:53

Why is it stupid? The LEA are allowed to fine parents, why shouldn't parents make a stand when they can close schools at a whim over something that has nothing to do with my children's day to day education?

vickibee Fri 21-Mar-14 11:52:30

I understand you are cross about it but this is not in control of the LEA, maybe it would be better to send to NUT as it is them who have called this strike.
Our school is part shut, two classes out and three in so some parents have one child at school and one at home. LUDICROUS.
With regards to penisons public sector workers have good pensions compared to others so maybe thay should count their blessings....

MirandaWest Fri 21-Mar-14 11:54:12

Not taking your child out of school and teachers striking are two separate issues.

Why are you invoicing the LEA? Surely it should be the NUT union you are invoicing? The LEA has no control over whether teachers strike. They can't provide a days education for your child because teachers belonging to the NUT union are striking.

AuntieStella Fri 21-Mar-14 11:55:15

Slightly a side issue to this thread, but authorising absence for funerals is not part of the Sept 2013 changes (which affected only family holidays). It sounds as if you have a weak HT who is hiding their (poor) judgment behind an LEA/Governmental bogeyman.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Fri 21-Mar-14 11:55:19

It is not 'at a whim' and it is not 'nothing to do' with your child's education!

Bexinder Fri 21-Mar-14 11:56:31

Great point - it will go to the NUT. But the LEA do have a responsibility to provide education. Just got off the phone to the Sun, they're going to back this.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Fri 21-Mar-14 11:56:53

Well, that's all you need to know then, isn't it hmm

Forgettable Fri 21-Mar-14 11:58:25

Jeez

MirandaWest Fri 21-Mar-14 11:58:29

But how can the LEA provide education if the teachers aren't at school? Seriously you are not thinking this through.

AuntieStella Fri 21-Mar-14 11:58:36

What do you expect the LEA to do to break the strike? Or what will The Sun be asking them to do?

vickibee Fri 21-Mar-14 12:01:42

why can't supply teachers be brought in to cover striking staff from another union?

You have the responsibility to provide education for your child, not the LEA.
I support the NUT on this issue, and I rarely support strikes.

mummy1973 Fri 21-Mar-14 12:03:58

Please read why they are striking http://www.teachers.org.uk

ShoeWhore Fri 21-Mar-14 12:04:07

I agree, this is the teachers who have decided to strike, it's not the LA's decision. Usually then individual HTs have to take the decision whether they have sufficient staff to keep school open or not. And there are legal restrictions on how they can provide cover - they are not allowed to pay a supply teacher for example (although if a day's supply cover was already booked for another reason, they can use it). So if enough teachers strike, the LAs hands are pretty well tied.

vickibee Fri 21-Mar-14 12:07:08

My Ds's teacher is away on a course that day so even though she is NUT they can get a cover teacher in so my son's class is going ahead. It kind of gets rid of the teacher making a decision about the strike, perhaps she did it on purpose?

newbieman1978 Fri 21-Mar-14 12:07:37

The two issues you raise are not comparable.

If you and the majority of parents staged some sort of protest which involved not sending your children to school for a day I'm 100% sure that no one would be fined. That would be a comparable situation to teachers striking.

On the issue of Funerals, I don't know of a head teacher that would not authorise a day for a funeral. Unless you are asking for a week off for the funeral of great aunty Mary in Spain whom the child has no relationship with just because it's more convenient for you.

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Fri 21-Mar-14 12:07:52

The sun's a good choice. They like massive tits. Which is what you are going to look like if you carry this plan through.

I would have thought DM would be the more traditional route though.

Curlynoodles Fri 21-Mar-14 12:08:22

The sun = scum

BikeRunSki Fri 21-Mar-14 12:12:49

Because we live in a democratic society where strikes are legal, but unauthorised absence from school isn't.

I say that as someone who will be inconvenienced by the strike, and taking a day's leave means we won't be able to go and see the PiLs at Easter. So - teacher strike = 2 dc not seeing their GPs.

Galena Fri 21-Mar-14 12:12:57

Supplybteachers can be used if they are directly employed by the LA. They cannot be brought in from agencies. However, very few supply teachers are now LA-employed.

As a teacher, I am offended at your use of the word "whim". I am not part of the NUT and will not be striking, but I did go out on strike last year when called upon by my union.

I would do some serious research before you make yourself look foolish. I cannot even be bothered to explain what damage Gove has done to our education system, our terms and conditions of pay and our pensions.

titchy Fri 21-Mar-14 12:26:16

What are you invoicing the LEA/NUT for exactly? The cost of the tutor you're going to have to hire to replace the teaching your child would have had?

17leftfeet Fri 21-Mar-14 12:29:13

Hands OP a grip

It's not the teachers decision to fine parents

It is their right to strike over what is a very important issue

Teachers are invaluable and as a parent I support the strike as I want my children's teachers to be in happy secure jobs so they can do their best for my children and be advocates for their profession so more well educated, enthusiastic graduates see teaching as a credible and viable career choice

BTW Gove never asked my permission when he threatened to get rid of my subject (as it's not 'important' enough for the "Big 8") and left me wondering if I will have job this time next year.... I am only trained to teach one subject. No subject, no job. Doesn't matter to him that I am a consistently outstanding teacher with 90% A*-C pass rate in a socially deprived area.

Did he ask your permission when he overhauled your DC's curriculum, or turned your DC's school into an academy? Didn't think so hmm

VillaVillekulla Fri 21-Mar-14 12:30:56

What a bonkers thing to do.

Agree with this: The sun's a good choice. They like massive tits. Which is what you are going to look like if you carry this plan through.

Damnautocorrect Fri 21-Mar-14 12:52:34

The teachers are striking to protect the gift of education that our children are thankfully entitled to in this country.
Gove is trying to destroy this and turn education into a business.
If my ds's teachers strike I back them.
Good luck with your silly misunderstood campaign

oh dear god almighty, really?

Do you think the strike is because people want a random wednesday off work?

TheGreatHunt Fri 21-Mar-14 14:13:56

Maybe if the government stopped fucking about with education then teachers wouldn't strike.

We are not a dumbass nation so our education can't be that bad. So fuck off Gove.

Although given that the sun is such a widely read paper even though it appeals to 14 year old teenagers with page 3 (I mean come on, named breasts. Grow up) maybe I'm wrong.

TheGreatHunt Fri 21-Mar-14 14:14:38

*naked not named. Although to sun readers, they are just that. Breasts with a name.

morethanpotatoprints Fri 21-Mar-14 14:16:50

What exactly are you invoicing them for? This should be interesting.

BreconBeBuggered Fri 21-Mar-14 14:20:32

I would actually like to see the invoice. Is this very wrong of me?

ninaprettyballerina Fri 21-Mar-14 14:21:19

morethan people are being forced to take time off work so presumably recompense for lost earnings

HauntedNoddyCar Fri 21-Mar-14 14:21:54

But the NUT aren't behind the fines. So suing them for failing to provide education is nonsensical. You are getting in a pickle here.

TheGreatHunt Fri 21-Mar-14 14:23:02

Unless you take unpaid leave ninaprettyballerina or are self employed then there is no loss of earnings.

headlesslambrini Fri 21-Mar-14 14:27:13

The LA have met their obligation to provide education by providing schools and teachers. They are not in charge of strike's.

It used to be illegal under a.strike to take one member of staff from their duties to cover someone else who is on strike which is why some classes are in and some are not.

Also DCs are individuals, why should a younger child be kept off school when their teacher is in when the older one is off. If there wasnt a stike on, you would still be doing the school run so what difference is it. Its not an excuse for a lie in.

ninaprettyballerina Fri 21-Mar-14 14:31:30

Im not affected next week but if I were then I'd be forced to take unpaid leave thegreathunt
Not defending the OPs actions btw, just suggesting what the invoice would be for

Parliamo Fri 21-Mar-14 14:32:37

Am annoyed I wasted my time reading this goady stupid shite. There doesn't seem much point trying to summon the energy to argue with it. I'm impressed anybody is trying.

Sometimes I wish I washer witty. There must be some scope for taking the piss here surely?

LackaDAISYcal Fri 21-Mar-14 14:33:20

"The sun's a good choice. They like massive tits. Which is what you are going to look like if you carry this plan through."

grin

Parliamo Fri 21-Mar-14 14:33:46

*was more literate, as well as more witty

During the last strike a stupid parent at our school threatened to do this, but taking her invoice into the school instead.

She is a SAHM

hmm

'The Sun are going to back this'

You are a loon and I dont believe that for a second.

WhatEverZen Fri 21-Mar-14 14:35:02

I had no problem with the school authorising a day off for a family funeral and i have no problem with people using their right to strike, however inconvenient it personally may be to me.

I fully support our teachers... and no, Im not a teacher. Just a parent with 2 children in our education system that some politicians think they can play political football with and ignore the advice of those who actually know what they're talking about

girliefriend Fri 21-Mar-14 14:39:06

I think op you may be missing the point, one of the first of many stupid policies Gove pushed through was to clamp right down on unauthorised absences.

Teachers are striking because of Gove and all of his policies which are so detrimental to our childrens education. Rather than 'kicking up a stink' you should be cheering them on!!

ChocolateWombat Fri 21-Mar-14 14:39:21

Crazy! Sounds like a total failure to understand what striking is about and the huge difference between the government policy on school attendance and the general principle of striking.

Any member of the labour force can strike at any time. Someone on strike is withholding their supply of labour (without pay of course) in order to make a point to the employer. Collectively striking aims to force the employer to give into, or compromise on the demands of the employees. Typically these demands include pay, pensions, working conditions, hours etc.
Strikes are usually organised by Trade Unions, who are independent bodies which members pay a fee to belong to. They call a strike as collective action is more effective than individual action. The strikes are certainly not organised by the employer, school or LEA.
The whole point is that they cause disruption. The disruption is to force the employer to consider the demands of the employee. Just like a train drivers strike, it will cause disruption to the customers....in this case, the children and their families.
You can look into what the dispute is about and you can join the campaign if you think it is fair. Or you can feel annoyed about it....it is intended to make you feel like this.

The LEA have not called the strike. The government have not called the strike. They both are keen for it not to happen.
The government has ruled that non attendance at school can be fined. The LEA enforces the rule.

Sending the invoice will not get you anywhere. It will just show a failure to understand what is behind these 2 very separate issues.

girliefriend Fri 21-Mar-14 14:40:02

Also had no problem getting dd 'authorised' for a family funeral hmm

Pooka Fri 21-Mar-14 14:42:17

I also had no problem getting authorisation for dd and ds1 to attend my fil's recent funeral. First day off in term time for several years, apart from tonsillectomy and other illness.

scottishmummy Fri 21-Mar-14 14:46:01

Gosh how irrational.teachers have right to strike,irrespective of whether you inconvenienced

donnie Fri 21-Mar-14 14:46:16

pmsl @ "nothing to do with my child's education" grin

Wow OP what good insight and understanding you have! Op please, do send the invoice in - an you C&P a copy here please, so we can all chortle?

On a more serious note though; do you want your dc to be taught by good teachers or not? because more and more of them are deserting the profession. Or would you prefer your dc to be taught by someone with a couple of dodgy A levels for a much lower salary?

Whilst I understand your frustrations this is just about the dimmest thing I've read this week. You're going to end up looking daft and embarrassing yourself. Please don't do this.

scottishmummy Fri 21-Mar-14 14:53:03

Strike in England and Wales not scotland

rocketeer Fri 21-Mar-14 14:56:33

You are spectacularly missing the point. Gove implemented the unauthorised absence rule so shouldn't you be supporting the teacher's strike in the hope that this is one of the things that can be changed?

Seems the OP has scarpered....

wooldonor Fri 21-Mar-14 15:27:40

I'm fed up with seeing this sort of post on facebook, usually agreed with by lots of hun type posts.

The two things are totally unrelated and if the Sun really have agreed to run a story they will also make themselves look silly as this was covered by other papers at the time of the last strike.

This is the first of several that comes up on a search

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10372784/Letter-from-parent-demanding-60-fine-over-teachers-strike-goes-viral.html

Isthatwhatdemonsdo Fri 21-Mar-14 15:33:21

Jesus Wept! I've heard it all now!

chicaguapa Fri 21-Mar-14 15:36:21

why shouldn't parents make a stand when they can close schools at a whim over something that has nothing to do with my children's day to day education?

What makes you think that the reason(s) for the strikes has nothing to do with your children's day to day education? confused

scottishmummy Fri 21-Mar-14 15:51:42

It's not a whim,it's legitimate greviance.and point of strike is to cause inconvenience
I support any worker right to strike

softtoyqueen Fri 21-Mar-14 17:28:45

I hate the heavy handed approach to unauthorised absences and do not agree with them.

But I support the teachers in the strike because they are striking because they are against certain issues in the government's education policy - and so am I. (and I am also grateful we get a day off to boot).

mrz Fri 21-Mar-14 17:29:29

Just to be clear supply teachers or other staff can not be used to cover a striking teacher's class

PatriciaHolm Fri 21-Mar-14 17:38:54

Oh dear. This is so going to be accompanied by a sadface photo, isn't it, probably with a side serving of resolute children looking aghast at having to take a day off.

You know the article will also include your age (probably wrong), employment (ditto), and house price, don't you OP?

Loon.

Galena Fri 21-Mar-14 17:51:18

mrz This disagrees with you.

mrz Fri 21-Mar-14 18:16:36

I'm afraid the information in there is completely wrong Galena

Here's the guidance from my union who are not striking

Reporting for work
Firstly, and most importantly, you must make yourself available for work as usual. If the head/principal decides to close the school/college, you should ask what s/he wants you to do e.g. work from home or from an alternative venue. Alternatively, if your school/college remains open you must inform the head/principal that you are available for work and ask what s/he wants you to do e.g. come into your usual workplace, work from a different location or work from home.

Covering for striking colleagues
When colleagues are taking industrial action but ATL has not balloted, you should work as normally as circumstances permit but you should not undermine your colleagues' action. This advice also applies to supply teachers. Members who are under pressure to cover for striking colleagues should contact their ATL rep or branch secretary for further advice and support.

In the case of maintained schools, you should be aware of the provision in the School Teachers' Pay and Conditions Document that all directions of heads are subject to the requirement of reasonableness: if an instruction is clearly unreasonable, it can legitimately be refused.

ATL would normally consider it unreasonable for you to be asked to:

take over the work of colleagues engaged in industrial action, other than in exceptional circumstances such as genuine emergency
undertake a teaching load greater than usual or to accept additional responsibilities or duties as a result of colleagues taking industrial action
agree to the amalgamation of groups of pupils or students or to the division of one group between others as a result of colleagues taking industrial action.

The rarely cover contractual provision should not apply in relation to strike action. *Teachers should not be required to cover for absences which are know or which can be foreseen, and in the case of strike action the NUT will have written to tell schools the date of action and that they are asking their members to take action in line with statutory requirements.

NASUWT guidance

Where members of another TUC-affiliated trade union are involved in industrial action, NASUWT members should:

make clear to the headteacher/principal that they will be reporting for work as normal;

make clear that they will not accept any variation to their contracted duties and/or undertake the timetabled or other responsibilities of those engaged in action, including taking into their timetabled lessons pupils from classes of teachers who are involved in strike.

Where a school/college remains partially open and certain classes/year groups are sent home, NASUWT members should not agree to timetable variations to accommodate classes or pupils who would normally have been taken by those taking action. The NASUWT would need to establish with the headteacher/principal that members who are working with their normal classes will be able to access all of the necessary services to ensure the health, safety and welfare of themselves and the pupils.

MerlinFromCamelot Fri 21-Mar-14 18:19:49

DD1, secondary school has announced all Y9s to stay at home. All other years are in.

DD2, primary, business as normal. School getting a supply in to cover DD class. So seems supply teachers can be used if the school decides to do so.

Galena Fri 21-Mar-14 18:31:56

Ah, but I wonder which is law and which is advice. I think a HT is LEGALLY allowed to ask you to cover but cannot force you, but since the advice from all unions is that you shouldn't cover striking colleagues, they don't bother to ask as they know most teachers will say no.

Euphemia Fri 21-Mar-14 18:39:07

You're off your head, OP.

Teachers go to school to WORK. As such they have the right to withdraw their labour.

Children go to school for EDUCATION. Completely different thing, different rules.

I never understand why people confuse the two.

mrz Fri 21-Mar-14 19:25:18

Galena it is unlawful for agencies to supply teachers to replace those undertaking official industrial action if the agency is aware of the action (Regulation 7, “Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Business Regulations 2003).

ipadquietly Fri 21-Mar-14 19:28:48

angry As regards my 'good pension'. I am just about to retire after 20 years' full time+ service, working bloody hard. My pension is £2000 more than the state pension at under £10K per year.

Bloody Tory press.

Merefin Fri 21-Mar-14 19:29:53

OP The Sun may say that are backing this, but they will make you look like a chump, sure as anything.

And YYYY to everything everyone else has said. Teachers need our support....it's Gove who has ramped up the thing with term time absence.

Jinsei Fri 21-Mar-14 19:39:05

What a foolish and ill-informed OP!

I hate the new rules in absences during term time, I think it should be left entirely up to the head teacher's discretion if parents want to take kids out - ours has always made sensible decisions previously.

However, this has nothing at all to do with the teachers' strike, and it's pointless trying to make a connection. The teachers are legally entitled to strike, and as a parent, I support them. I want the best people to be attracted into teaching, with terms and conditions that are appropriate for what they do. Yes, it might be inconvenient if I have to take the day off work when the teachers are on strike, but schools are not run for my convenience - schools are not about childcare but about the education of our kids. And decent terms and conditions for teachers are a huge part of that.

The only common factor between these two policies is that idiot Michael Gove. If you want to make a stand, write and ask him to stop ripping apart our education system. Otherwise you're wasting your time.

Abbierhodes Fri 21-Mar-14 19:45:42

Oh my god, you are a complete and utter dickhead.

chicaguapa Fri 21-Mar-14 19:47:00

Can you invoice the government instead? Because if Gove stopped dicking around and actually met with the unions to discuss it, there wouldn't be a strike. So the buck stops with him, ultimately.

He's in charge of the education sector. Yet he's failing to ensure your DC can go to school next Wednesday and be educated. He knows the schools will be closed, he knows it can be avoided by his actions, yet he doesn't give a shit.

Don't blame the LEA ffs! What have they got to do with it?

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Fri 21-Mar-14 19:47:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ipadquietly Fri 21-Mar-14 19:49:52

Also, OP, teaching is actually a JOB, not a hobby, and teachers are entitled strike to show their disagreement with profound changes to their pay and conditions.

AlpacaLypse Fri 21-Mar-14 19:53:14

Going off at a tangent... could the NUT please arrange their next strike for a Monday or a Friday please? Preferably with a nice sunny weekend attached? Then at least I could take them to the seaside with a tent.

I imagine the reason they keep choosing Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays for industrial action is to avoid being accused of only wanting a long weekend - but at least some of us parents would appreciate the chance to have one as well! smile

Abbierhodes Fri 21-Mar-14 19:54:52

Gove won't even talk to us. We would call off the strike if he'd simply engage with us. Your kid is losing a day's education because he won't go to a meeting.

domoarigato Fri 21-Mar-14 19:59:04

Dumb

gringringringrin Abbier: absofuckinglutely.

Not liking the responses OP?

Silkyandmoonface Fri 21-Mar-14 20:12:10

Teachers are striking to protect the education of children like yours OP.
Apart from all the other appalling changes to education in England, if teachers pay and conditions are completely decimated-who will want to become teachers?
You will not get good graduates going into teaching in the future because they won't be able to afford to. You will be left with the poorly qualified and inexperienced educating in state schools. Wonderful. And (some) PARENTS are complaining about teachers trying to protect education-jeez!

Galena Fri 21-Mar-14 20:46:09

mrz I know - I mentioned waaaay up the thread that only LA-employed supplies could cover and very few are any more.

mrz Fri 21-Mar-14 20:50:03

but that isn't true Galena

kilmuir Fri 21-Mar-14 20:50:29

You sound a right tit. They are allowed to strike, its meant to be an inconvenience

clam Fri 21-Mar-14 20:54:23

Oh, surprise, surprise, the OP has disappeared.
Gone to slink under a stone in embarrassment for starting such a ridiculous thread, I hope.

junkfoodaddict Fri 21-Mar-14 21:01:03

mrz
My school has 3 teachers striking. They have asked one teacher to postpone her co-ordinator time so that the teacher who usually covers her can cover the class of one of the teachers striking AND bringing in supply for the other two classes.
Stupidly, the teacher whose co-ordinator time is being moved, AGREED! Thsi teacher doesn't agree but is so wekam she said yes!
What affect (in terms of law) does this have on the school? Not sure if it is LEA or agency supply cover.

junkfoodaddict Fri 21-Mar-14 21:01:46

sorry about the typing errors.

mrz Fri 21-Mar-14 21:05:54

Technically the school isn't employing someone to cover for a striking teacher but I can't see the head's actions being condusive to good working relationships.

Don't be such a dick head OP. Teachers are striking for good reason. I don't agree with term time holidays being so strictly regulated but it is a separate issue.

2little1s Fri 21-Mar-14 21:27:53

I agree with the original OP. Teachers are public sector workers and have very generous final salary pensions which are increased with inflation, excellent holidays and an increment each year until they reach the top of their pay scale. Private sector workers never have such generous terms. I think Michael Gove is brilliant and it's good someone is finally sorting out the education system which is failing many children.
I think I will also complain and contact the Daily Mail. Teachers should be like the police and be considered an essential service and not allowed to strike. the NUT is extremely left wing and this should have no place in our schools

ipadquietly Fri 21-Mar-14 21:40:20

I will reiterate. I am getting £9000 per year after nearly 20 years' service.
I have worked lunchtimes - orchestra, choir, recorders.
I have worked on Sundays so that children have feedback on the work they have done on Friday.
I have done things for the community - access to a local pond
I have taught children and tracked their progress (to the nth degree)
I have been observed, seen by Ofsted, measured against standards.

I did have a previous job, where I fulfilled a better paid role within an organisation. A small part of the organisation, with a specific reporting role.

My pension, at about £750 per month is hardly generous, seeing that I am a 'well paid' member of the senior leadership team.

As to Michael Gove being brilliant. I think, 2little1s, that you are a little bit deluded.

stillenacht Fri 21-Mar-14 21:46:14

I am not on strike that day (different union) but my disabled sons teacher is. My in laws fortunately are driving 280 miles to look after him as DH and I are both in the wrong union. In a couple of months DH and I are taking 50 pupils away for four days (I'm part time), DS will go into social service respite care for one night and my parents will have both DSs for the other three. Shall I invoice the parents for the additional hours care I am providing?

lougle Fri 21-Mar-14 21:46:49

"Teachers should be like the police and be considered an essential service and not allowed to strike."

Absolute rubbish. Teachers do not provide an essential service (where 'essential' is used to mean maintaining order/saving lives or other 'must be performed at that moment in time' services). Their teaching can be postponed. They can condense a subject, or skip an enhancement activity. It's not ideal, of course, but it can be done on the odd occasion without too much detriment to the children.

These teachers are striking to protect the education of your children, which in their view is being eroded. Now, you can agree with that or disagree, but you can't take away their legal right to protest in the form of strike action.

It would be a very dangerous time for employees if the right to strike action was removed in all but the most essential services (Police, medical staff).

I'm a Governor of two schools and volunteer in a third. The teachers bend over backwards to help the children they educate. To suggest that they would take a day's strike action for trivial cause is completely disrespectful.

clam Fri 21-Mar-14 21:59:21

2little1s "an increment each year until they reach the top of their pay scale."

This doesn't happen automatically anymore. Get your facts right.

Nennypops Fri 21-Mar-14 22:03:50

2little, suggesting that teachers should be regarded as comparable to the emergency services and therefore prevented from striking is utterly ludicrous. Who loses their life if a teacher goes on strike? If it was so essential for children not to miss a moment's education, schools would not be allowed to exclude.

As for your views on Gove, I'm seriously wondering whether you're his wife. No-one else could make that sort of pronouncement remotely seriously.

2little1s Fri 21-Mar-14 22:06:08

teachers say they want to defend education but are still going on strike. I know many teachers and they want to defend their salary, pension and holidays. They dislike Gove because he is taking on their unions and their conditions of service. He is improving education. I too am a governor of a school. Any teacher earning £9000, as earlier poster said must be working part time...I know what teachers' salaries are ....at least tell the truth. Too many parents are scared of saying anything against teachers because they are worried that the teacher will take it out on the child.

clam Fri 21-Mar-14 22:07:29

"Too many parents are scared of saying anything against teachers because they are worried that the teacher will take it out on the child."

Then they're stupid too. angry

Delphiniumsblue Fri 21-Mar-14 22:08:45

You will merely look silly OP.

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Fri 21-Mar-14 22:11:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

peppermintsticks Fri 21-Mar-14 22:14:30

"I find it very surprising that a school governor would be in support of Gove. I am also a governor and cannot think of a single person who I know within the education system who would agree with your view that Gove is improving our education system."

Ditto.

MirandaWest Fri 21-Mar-14 22:14:57

2little1s I read ipad's post to say that her pension is £9k, not that she earns that as a teacher.

I've never seen the NUT as being a very left wing union - I thought the NASUWT was more left wing.

2little1s Fri 21-Mar-14 22:27:49

I know many people who think Michael Gove is an excellent Education Secretary and many are parents, governors and teachers. Perhaps we don't mix in the same circles.
The unions are arguing about teachers' conditions of service not the children's education. Let's be clear. The teachers are going on strike about their pensions not the education service

stillenacht Fri 21-Mar-14 22:33:01

2Little1s... I know hundreds of teachers. Not one has any respect for Gove.

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Fri 21-Mar-14 22:33:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

2little1s Fri 21-Mar-14 22:42:30

differential pay for "good" teachers, end of course exams rather than teacher assessments,

2little1s Fri 21-Mar-14 22:43:40

Admit it...you are all going on strike about your pensions, not the children's education

Jinsei Fri 21-Mar-14 22:44:08

How exactly will attacking teachers' terms and conditions and making the profession less attractive to talented graduates help to improve our education system, 2little1s?

BreconBeBuggered Fri 21-Mar-14 22:45:51

I live in a die-hard Tory constituency. At governors' meetings at our school, I'm surprised the clerk hasn't started minuting the audible hiss that goes around the room every time the Education Secretary is mentioned.

stillenacht Fri 21-Mar-14 22:47:45

I don't even pay into the teachers pension, I can't afford to hmm

stillenacht Fri 21-Mar-14 22:50:03

2little1s for my subject we don't do teacher assessments. It's controlled conditions within the classroom, where work stays in the classroom and then is marked by the teacher and sent to an external moderator.... Do you think we just make grades up?

Philoslothy Fri 21-Mar-14 22:51:19

2little1s Fri 21-Mar-14 22:43:40
Admit it...you are all going on strike about your pensions, not the children's education

I am a late entrant to teaching, my pension is a tiny irrelevance. We don't particularly need my wage either although it is nice to have . I am not striking because I will be on maternity leave but I would be and it has nothing to do with my financial gain.

MerlinFromCamelot Fri 21-Mar-14 22:51:21

I like the idea if free schools and academies.

My DD1 school has obtained academy status and I can not fault the school. DD is very happy there. Could not recommend the school enough. Since becoming an academy the catchment area has become a lot smaller. Perhaps a sign parents really like it.

We also have a new free school primary in our area. Parents are falling over themselves to get on to it. If my DD2 was younger I would probably apply for it as well.

Gove does not make my pulse go any faster but I think it is a vast improvement on Balls to be honest. But I'm not a teacher only a parent.

Lottiedoubtie Fri 21-Mar-14 22:52:50

differential pay for "good" teachers,

Are you aware of how difficult it is to objectively assess 'good teachers'. Are you aware that the methods Gove is proposing to use are open to massive abuse and aren't proven to actually work anyway.

end of course exams rather than teacher assessments

Are you aware that changes are being rushed through so fast they arent being properly researched?
Are you aware that when asked what his evidence was that his efforts to model our education system on aspects of the Finnish education system would work he replied, 'good question, I don't actually know the answer, but there are people who do' shock

To be fair you wouldn't be aware of my last point unless you were at the lecture of his I had the misfortune to attend and heard me ask him. However, if you are going to comment you should know the rest.

Llareggub Fri 21-Mar-14 22:53:46

Actually, with a bit of tweaking the OP's suggestion might help support the strike.

Imagine the chaos if we all turned up en masse at the LEA with our children, placards to support the strike? We could demand that the Director of Education fulfill their statutory duty of provide our DCs with education. Tongue in cheek of course, but it will help show that we all think Gove is an arse.

stillenacht Fri 21-Mar-14 22:55:01

Differential pay for "good" teachers is all smoke and mirrors. As I am part time I'm not fully up with PRP but I have been judged twice in the last year as outstanding in lesson obs, I run lunchtime clubs every lunchtime, i'm taking pupils on a European trip, I put on concerts and music for special occasions but because one or two pupils can't be bothered anymore (actually said to me last week) and will fail to meet their Government generated targets I can kiss goodbye to that.

Lottiedoubtie Fri 21-Mar-14 22:55:47

You could do that on another day, it'd make the same point and be funnier!

<desperately wishes the damage Gove is doing to our children was funny>

Dinosaursareextinct Fri 21-Mar-14 22:59:52

It's not such a ridiculous idea. If your child is at private school and the teachers go on strike shortly before GCSEs and your child fails because of that and you have to keep him at the school to re-take, thus causing you financial loss, in those kinds of circs I think you'd have a claim.
You need to have a contract and a financial loss. You can't impose a fine.

stillenacht Fri 21-Mar-14 23:03:39

A one day strike would not cause anyone to fail their GCSEs... Lack of work / effort on the pupils part from Sept 2012 till now would though.

stillenacht Fri 21-Mar-14 23:04:47

Could I countersue the pupils for screwing up my chances with PRP because they "don't care anymore".

jmill Fri 21-Mar-14 23:05:39

Teachers are loosing a days pay because they want YOUR children to be taught by qualified teachers, not people who have been dragged off the streets.

Dinosaursareextinct Fri 21-Mar-14 23:09:53

I know that, Stille, I was considering the possibility that a more serious strike could justify a legal claim. The private school would be considered to have breached the contract with the parent if its staff went on strike.

Dinosaursareextinct Fri 21-Mar-14 23:10:44

Stille - your contract at a private school would be with the school, not the pupils.

rollonthesummer Fri 21-Mar-14 23:14:38

I cannot believe this OP.

Parents are pissed off that Gove has banned term-time holidays and imposed fines on parents that take them.

Teachers are pissed off that Gove has massively screwed with their job.

Parents should be supporting teachers against Gove not blaming them for the fines. I don't know any teachers that think it's a brilliant idea!

and 2little1s

I know many people who think Michael Gove is an excellent Education Secretary and many are parents, governors and teachers.

Really. hmm

stillenacht Fri 21-Mar-14 23:15:35

Dinosaur it's all 'what ifs' and maybes though isn't it? Additionally as only 6-7% are privately educated it's not hugely relevant I guess.

Dinosaursareextinct Fri 21-Mar-14 23:20:50

It was just a point of interest, Stille, nothing more.
Have just been reading about Gove's stupid spelling test. Hate him for that as well.

17leftfeet Fri 21-Mar-14 23:21:59

2little1s

Can you not see that teacher's employment conditions have a direct impact on children's education -both now and in the future?

What possible incentive will there be for graduates with good degrees to enter the teaching profession?
How will the education sector retain good, professionally qualified teachers, if their employment conditions and pension provision are so poor?

I'm not a teacher but it's not rocket science!

Damnautocorrect Fri 21-Mar-14 23:25:47

I don't want my son trained to pass exams I want him to love learning, find his niche and learn at his own pace by teachers who enjoy and like their job.
I don't think continual assessments is good for children the teachers or the school.

Fallenangle Fri 21-Mar-14 23:50:18

I really do wan't to see a copy of the invoice OP. Are you registered for VAT? or just PRATT

juniper44 Sat 22-Mar-14 00:00:39

The strike is about far more than pensions and pay. It's also about the appalling changes Gove is making to the curriculum, and the fact that he ignores any research or evidence that doesn't support his myopic views.

He is degrading the profession. He has decided it's such an easy job, it doesn't even need a qualification, and yet is surprised that a 'higher calibre' of students don't want to become teachers, for a lower pay and worse conditions than in other industries.

Educational policies shouldn't be dictated by politicians. Gove knows nothing of the system, bar his own experiences as a child.

PastSellByDate Sat 22-Mar-14 06:29:41

I think that we have to allow any worker the right to strike.

I think my issue with this is that I have no idea why they're striking nor do the children.

So yes - teachers - go ahead an strike - but why not also explain to the children why you are striking.

this is also a learning opportunity. Sure to a YR child this may be very difficult to explain - Mrs X is not going to teach me because she wants to go and tell her boss that doing XXX isn't fair, so she needs the day off to do this - and that's called a strike. They may not get through or be clear to a 4/5 year old - but a 9/10/11 year old may well understand it.

I have children in two primary schools and got the same 'form' letter from each. I realise that this is what is 'officially' meant to be released to parents - but the NUT seriously hurts themselves by not making sure the first thing they explain is why they are striking. Pay and conditions is chanted a lot - but who out there doesn't want better pay and conditions....

Perhaps start here: www.teachers.org.uk/

This is an opportunity to discuss what people do when they disagree with each other.

How disputes between employers and workers happen - and how they're resolved.

So I hope teachers out there reading this will take on board - this isn't the first strike day my child has had off, I do support your right to withhold labour, but... can I encourage you to explain this to pupils and parents far better....

best wishes

PSBD

ShoeWhore Sat 22-Mar-14 07:22:08

I'm still chuckling to myself at the idea of a school governor who likes Gove... Think I'm more likely to meet a unicorn.

funnyfarms Sat 22-Mar-14 08:05:03

"I find it very surprising that a school governor would be in support of Gove. I am also a governor and cannot think of a single person who I know within the education system who would agree with your view that Gove is improving our education system."

And Ditto for me too.

Neverhere Sat 22-Mar-14 08:29:06

Psbd I'm striking and have explained (in very simple terms) to my (7 year old) class why. I also asked them to discuss it with their parents and explained that not everyone agrees.

I personally think we have lost the pensions battle but recently entered the profession so expected as much. I am striking because if the change in pay and conditions come into force I will leave the profession. Gove is trying to get rid of the basics in one swoop, which include work day length (no additional pay), loss of PPA (I already work every evening and all day Saturday - as much as I love my job I'm not going to spend all my time doing it) and holidays.

I honestly believe if these conditions change for the worst for teachers, every child in this country will be worse off in their education.

PastSellByDate Sat 22-Mar-14 08:54:58

Really pleased you explained it to your class Neverhere!

And as I said I support your right to strike - just a bit disappointed that discussing this right and the reasons why employees/ employers might have disputes (agruments often involving different needs on both sides) is really important - and I fear our school never sees the need to explain to the children what's going on (or the parents for that matter).

so as I said - really pleased to hear somewhere in England? a teacher is doing such a fab job!

Finally, and this is the old historian in me, these disputes operate over long periods of time on a pendulum - swinging one way then the other repeatedly. At times of financial constraint employers have the upper hand and can dictate pay/ conditions to their commercial/ financial advantage. At times of rapid development/ inflation - employees can make demands. As with all things it is a balance. What employers/ governments fail to recognise is people have memories and years of working overtime unpaid (because of the financial crisis) etc.... will be remembered and eventually freezes on pay across the board will break (hello inflation). A bit of leeway takes the pressure out of this system - but given our point in the political cycle I fear politicians are too short-sighted to see the folly of 6 years of near frozen pay.

However....I totally take your point on pensions. This and previous governments have failed to seriously investigate pension options for ordinary folk (the vast majority who work hard all their life earning <40K a year). There also is a clear narrative that the state pension schemes are somehow overly generous as compared to private schemes, which is true relatively speaking, but I suspect is being argued to protect the interests of those who fund these parties and run schemes that cream off a huge percentage of peoples' savings for insurance companies in the private sector.

National pension schemes exist elsewhere in Europe (i.e. The Netherlands www.pensionfundsonline.co.uk/content/country-profiles/the-netherlands/96) where both state & private sector workers can join and because of the high volume of members, the scheme is stable and largely-self-financing (but regulated through their central bank, which can intervene if company schemes are in trouble). Notably 'The City' seem totally uninterested in supporting governments which explore such options.

Jinsei Sat 22-Mar-14 09:29:51

My dd's teacher isn't striking this time (not NUT) but she did explain it to the children before the last strikes. She gave them both sides of the argument, in simple terms. I agree that it's good for kids to have an understanding of what's going on and why.

Abbierhodes Sat 22-Mar-14 09:35:03

I explained it to my year 11 class yesterday and they were quite supportive of our reasons. I agree that parents need a better understanding of what is going on- it frustrates me that they seem to think we're striking for 'better pay and conditions'- we simply want to preserve what we have.

Nennypops Sat 22-Mar-14 09:52:32

2little, what is so wrong about wanting to protect your pension? These are people who have worked for years in the belief that their pension was secure. Now, when it is too late for many to make adequate alternative private arrangements, they have the rug pulled from under them. If you were in that situation, would you think the man who brought it about was so wonderful?

Nennypops Sat 22-Mar-14 09:56:36

I find it very surprising that a school governor would be in support of Gove. I am also a governor and cannot think of a single person who I know within the education system who would agree with your view that Gove is improving our education system.

Governor at both a secondary and primary school in a leafy suburb here. I'm another who hasn't heard any of my governor colleagues agreeing with that view - and that includes Conservative councillors.

13loki Sat 22-Mar-14 10:00:28

I don’t teach in England anymore. I was not well paid as a yeacher when compared to other graduates in my field. For my extra year of training, I got a starting salary less than 2/3 of starting salaries in industry. Lower pay rises. Much lower pension. I made that decision, because I love teaching and I think our children deserve a good education. Eroding pay and consitions meant I left the UK. Many other teachers ate leaving the profession. I would not choose to teach in England again. All I wanted is what I signed up for.

This is an idiotic idea. You should support your teachers going on strike. I certainly do. Yes it's inconvenient but they do a tremendous job that Gove is making harder every year. I agree they should stand up and protest about that, and the other issues. It's not a job I could do, very admiring of those who handle the endless stress, long hours, government demands and criticism day in day out to do something completely irreplaceable.

missinglalaland Sat 22-Mar-14 10:39:28

I think you are protesting the heavy-handed policies about kids missing the odd discretionary day of school more than you resent the teachers striking. I have actually heard other parents making this same point while waiting not the playground for kids to come out of school.

I would have thought the Daily Mail would be your first port of call.

(BTW, our school is lovely, no problem with the odd discretionary day if your child has good attendance and is keeping up academically; also no strike closures. Over the years the odd class has had to have been cancelled, but the school has never shut.)

Feenie Sat 22-Mar-14 10:51:51

Yep, Sarah Vine is definitely on this thread and I claim my £5 grin

Lottiedoubtie Sat 22-Mar-14 10:53:10

The private school would be considered to have breached the contract with the parent if its staff went on strike.

Not true, independent school teachers still have the right to strike and there have been no successful lawsuits from parents as a result. Education, even in independent schools is not considered to be a 'pay by the day' affair, it is a process which takes place over months and years. Pupils and Teachers are also deemed to have joint responsibility for progress. 'You can lead a horse to water....'

In fact parents suing for children not getting results remains thankfully very rare. It does happen occasionally but it is incredibly unlikely to be successful. Just google the outcome of the case when Gary Linekar sued his daughters school after her A Levels. (Hint, he didn't win!).

morethanpotatoprints Sat 22-Mar-14 11:04:37

I know a school governor who is in support of Gove and also several parents.
I am not interested in what he has to say as he doesn't affect my dc, so haven't really heard most of what he says, nor bothered to work out the consequences of his policies.
He does have supporters out there though, even though the majority of you don't like him.
Teachers are striking for better policies to provide better education, you should all support them.

telsa Sat 22-Mar-14 11:47:36

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mammadiggingdeep Sat 22-Mar-14 12:52:26

If you truly understood the real, deep damage being caused by Gove you would want to strike alongside us teachers.

Your op is depressing and the logic is ridiculous.

Lara2 Sat 22-Mar-14 13:58:32

ipad I know how you feel! After 27 years full time my pension is worth a shade over £10,000 pa. Generous? Hardly!

I have also heard a nasty rumour that Gove wants to get rid of the EYFS in Reception. Presumably to replace it with a sit down totally formal curriculum that flies in the face of research on child development and brain development. God help us!

Thank God I will have a role outside the classroom (after MUCH soul searching) next year with a bit of PPA cover.

I keep seeing this rubbish on Facebook at the moment, it's shocking how many ignorant people don't seem to realise that striking is a legal right in this country, or haven't bothered to look into the reasons behind the strike.

I fully support the teachers strike. I say that as a working parent with two primary school aged DC.

DoneWithStruggling Sat 22-Mar-14 14:48:27

I have 3 DC at primary school. One is off because of the strike. I have to choose between taking a day's unpaid leave to look after the one at home OR paying £4 an hour for DS1 to go to wrap around care (ON THE SCHOOL SITE FFS and in the process of become officially part of the school, with at least one TA attached to a striking class working there on the strike day). Frankly quite tempted to bill that to someone.

On the last strike, DD had a (non-critical) hospital appointment put back 7 weeks because they didn't have enough staff in to run the clinic on strike day. While striking is a right, it seems to me that only "privileged" professions get to use it, and the people affected by strike action are those who have no control over the striking issues. I doubt Gove gives a monkeys that teachers are striking - it only gives him ammunition to change more.

Surely a more effective protest would be not submitting data to the LEA?

mrz Sat 22-Mar-14 14:53:40

Striking is legal action whereas failing to submit data is illegal

Lottiedoubtie Sat 22-Mar-14 17:24:19

What do you mean by privileged?

mrz Sat 22-Mar-14 17:36:01

Perhaps DoneWithStruggling missed the train drivers and fire brigade actions last year because they didn't inconvenience her

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Sat 22-Mar-14 17:41:52

Strike action in the UK over the past 14 years has included:

firefighters
post office workers
council workers
bus drivers
bin men
football referees
nhs workers
Doctors
tube workers

Presumably this is what's meant by privileged professions.

Go back further and you can find privileged professions such as dockers and miners.

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Sat 22-Mar-14 17:45:21

A lot of people I know were unaware of the fire brigade strikes at the end of last year. It doesn't seem to have been particularly well publicised. Which is odd, because one of the things I think they were trying to do was to get people to cook safely of not cook at all during the strikes to prevent fires. And you'd think that would require quite a lot of publicity.

Morgause Sat 22-Mar-14 17:47:50

The Sun are backing you?

biscuit

I've used all my holiday for this year, so my choices are either to take unpaid leave or pay my childminder extra to have my school aged children for the day.

I 100% support the strike action, despite financial cost to myself, the OP is completely ridiculous. This has everything to do with the quality of education.

lionheart Sat 22-Mar-14 17:55:22

"He is improving education."

<<thud>>

I'd like to know how you reach that conclusion, 2little1s.

titchy Sat 22-Mar-14 17:56:03

You do realise that the purpose of a school is to educate the kids, not to provide parents with free childcare..... The fact that the latter is a bi-product of the former is convenient, but in no way indicative of purpose.

NonnoMum Sat 22-Mar-14 17:57:06

If Sarah Vine is on this thread perhaps she would like to come and talk to me about my pay and conditions.

I sometimes work the odd shift in a restaurant with no accountability, and no OFsted and no performance related pay.

Guess which one is more lucrative?

DoneWithStruggling Sat 22-Mar-14 18:28:50

I'm not teacher bashing. But to be a public sector employee and/or to be in a unionised workplace at the moment is an enormous privilege. I would hazard a guess that most people are not these days, and as a result are subject to pressures not to take holiday or breaks, are probably in jobs without benefits such as employer-contributing pensions, are possibly on zero-hours contracts without sick pay. I am pro-union largely for these reasons and support the right to strike. But when teachers strike it has an adverse effect on people who have no control over educational policy or teachers pay and conditions. Although I resent our school "profiteering" out of the strike, I am grateful to have the option of easy childcare open to me. Other people are not so fortunate and have to choose between losing pay by not working or losing pay by giving it to childminders etc. I am also concerned about children who depend on free school meals or the school environment as a break from stressful homelives.

The point about school not being childcare also bothers me greatly. I was put on jobseekers when my youngest was 5, as I was deemed available to work. I quickly found work and was keen to do so. But the government's assumption is that school is childcare and a parent is available to work once their child is at school. For good or for worse, that is the situation for many families accross the country.

13loki Sat 22-Mar-14 18:35:53

But the general public do have control over education policy. That is democracy. If others choose not to be unionised, that does not mean that people who are in a union should not see the benefits of the union. Tell your MP that education matters to you. Tell them the policies are adversely affecting you. Tell them it will affect how you vote.

mrz Sat 22-Mar-14 18:40:22

Most of the people I know who work in the private sector are members of trade unions DoneWithStruggling, I certainly was as were every single one of my colleagues.

Lottiedoubtie Sat 22-Mar-14 18:45:17

It is ridiculous to say that you should be grateful to be in a unionised profession, so grateful you shouldn't support your union and use your right to strike.

It is unfortunate that striking had a negative effect of parents. Lets not forget it also has a negative effect on teachers who are all bright enough to know Gove isn't listening and despite that they still feel strongly enough to strike and loose a days a pay.

Because although it's crap (wouldn't it be great to live in a perfect world?) it is the best shot teachers have of being heard. Teachers are striking because they are being pushed into a corner not because they want to strike for fun.

Soveryupset Sat 22-Mar-14 18:46:29

I am afraid I also agree that school is conceived in the way it is as childcare as well as education. Otherwise it would be only 3 hours a day. When I went to school in a different country so many years ago, we only went to school 3 hours a day because indeed it was only a means to educate - and an amazing education it was too.

Nobody can tell me that a child of 4 really needs to be out of the home and into an institution 7 hours a day for purely educational purposes.

I also think we don't have control over educational policy and we do not have control over teacher's conditions. We are not in a democracy, the current government did not get a majority of votes and most of the parties did not have a manifesto many agreed with anyway. I have written to my MP about quite a number of shabby practices and both DH and I are active in our community in many capacities including semi-political ones, but it is massively time consuming and hard work to get the smallest of local campaign through the door, let alone something as big as educational policy.

The truth is when it comes to health and education you only have choice and influence if you have the money to go private.

mrz Sat 22-Mar-14 18:59:09

So you aren't in favour of Mr Gove's plans for 10 hour school days Soveryupset.

DoneWithStruggling Sat 22-Mar-14 19:08:37

Soveryupset I too was educated in another country. We had 4 hours of school a day (which included breaks) and a three month summer holiday. The main difference to my mind is that when we were at school we did academic learning and when we were at home we played. It frustrates me a little to find my children watching DVDs and playing with their own brought-in toys (golden time) at school and then having piles of homework to do at home. But that is a side issue. The school day does seem to have been stretched to suit an adult working day, and the trend certainly seems to be to stretch if further to accommodate a 9-5 working day day. School has become childcare, and it would be naive to deny it whatever your opinion on whether it should be or not.

And we don't live in a democracy. We have a representative democracy which is not the same thing at all. Furthermore, most of our MPs represent uncontested constituencies. Very few (need to) pay more than lip service to the actual opinions of their electors.

Lara2 Sat 22-Mar-14 19:14:26

We most definitely have the right to strike and should do so if needs be.
It always interests me that parents go nuts over a strike but never utter a murmur over our 5 INSET days ( which come out of our holiday ).

Lara2 Sat 22-Mar-14 19:16:32

Sorry, that should say 'some parents'.

13loki Sat 22-Mar-14 19:22:46

And that is the fault of the electorate. Hold the MPs accountable. If the seat is uncontested, get your party to contest it. Run as an independent. I didn't say it was easy, but if you are allowed to vote, you do have a say. You have a voice, use it.

Oh, and representative democracy is a form, or variant, of democracy.

mrz Sat 22-Mar-14 19:23:00

In the 2010 general election 532 of the 533 parliamentary seats were contested on the day with the 533rd seat contested on the 27th May. There are no uncontested seats DoneWithStruggling.

DoneWithStruggling Sat 22-Mar-14 19:24:00

Perhaps as the INSET days are notified further in advance so proper plans can be made, and cover the whole of a school so parents are not having to sort out only some of their children?

But, another alternative protest idea - why not strike on INSET days?

DoneWithStruggling Sat 22-Mar-14 19:27:05

Mrz I would suggest that only marginal seats are contested.

www.electoral-reform.org.uk/safe-seats/

Euphemia Sat 22-Mar-14 19:28:34

Strike on Inset days? Don't be daft - there's no point in a strike if no-one notices the immediate impact.

mrz Sat 22-Mar-14 19:28:52

A safe seat is very different to an uncontested seat DoneWithStruggling.

In a general election every seat is contested it's how the electoral system works.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 22-Mar-14 19:35:12

DoneWithStruggling

"But, another alternative protest idea - why not strike on INSET days?"

Which schools inset days would you like us to strike on?

clam Sat 22-Mar-14 19:37:23

We'll have another bright spark on here in a moment, suggesting strikes are held in the school holidays. Has happened before.

DoneWithStruggling Sat 22-Mar-14 19:38:38

Semantics really. A safe seat is to all intents and purposes uncontested, as the incumbent has no real need to canvass or campaign and opposition parties tend not to "waste" decent candidates there.

Euphemia The point of strikes used to be to inconvenience the employer and reinforce the power that the workforce had by uniting together. These strikes do not inconvenience Gove or the government, they merely fan the flames of his zeal for change. Neither are teachers a workforce united - some unions strike, some do not, and even within unions not every one goes out every time. The teachers strikes in their current form are ineffective and penalise the wrong people.

crazynanna Sat 22-Mar-14 19:40:37

DD's school said years 7,8,9 and 10 to stay off and only years 11 up to come in.
DD is year 11 (just finished mocks and now every class is revision until exams) and she has emailed her Head and said she will not be in as she is supporting her teachers and, I quote "Hell will freeze over before I cross a Picket Line"

I am so very proud of her

mrz Sat 22-Mar-14 19:48:12

No DoneWithStruggling a safe seat means that the electorate in that constituency favour one political party and that other parties contesting the seat are unlikely to win over the voters ... but safe seats can have shock results as many over confident parties have discovered time and time again.

This is my current fb status trying, probably poorly, why I am striking. Of course we have discussed it with our students. Our year 11 all know who. Gove is, and how he has constantly changed the goalposts for them in their GCSE years. I cannot remember a previous education secretary that could be named by the majority of my students, and was universally hated.

^Many teachers will be going on strike on 26th March - I will be one of them. I am going on strike to try and protect the future education for children in this country. The ever changing goalposts for students and schools are making it nearly impossible for teachers to do their jobs effectively and therefore for students to achieve their potential. The mid-course removal of the speaking and listening component of the English GCSE is just one example do this.

Personally I love being in the classroom, I love planning my lessons, thinking about my students and how they will respond. I don't mind working many evenings and weekends doing this, but I do resent the time that I am expected to spend 'proving' I am doing my job right, to tick boxes. Boxes which have no impact on my students learning, but increase my workload taking away from time I want to spend doing my job.

All students are expected to make certain progress, irrespective of them as an individual. Performance related pay and lesson grading criteria means that no-one Is going to want to teach the bottom sets - why would you when the progress of students with severely difficult lives outside of school, who don't regularly attend school and have no support at home are going to decide if you move up the pay scale or end up on capability. These are the students who need more than anyone people to care for and about their futures.

Funding up and down the country is being slashed in education, schools are having to continue to operate with less and less staff to balance the books. Teachers are being expected to teacher more classes, bigger classes and to keep the results going up - all within these ever changing goal posts based on zero educational research.

I know that others will be able to explain much more eloquently than I can why we are striking, but before you blame the teachers, the ones who genuinely care about the students, their welfare and their achievements please think about our reasons and what might happen to your child's education and schooling if things continue as they are.^

DoneWithStruggling Sat 22-Mar-14 19:56:08

My original point was that the electorate has little control or influence over policy. Safe seats can indeed have shock results. But by and large they remain safe. And even in heavily contested seats, a candidate does not need to deliver on promises made during election campaigns, and frequently does not even need to pay lip service to the concerns of constituents. Power is not in the the hands of the masses and it is delusional to consider that it is.

mrz Sat 22-Mar-14 19:59:54

The electorate could vote for policies rather than political affinity and take control.

DoneWithStruggling Sat 22-Mar-14 20:25:37

They could indeed, but they tend not to. Elections, where fought, tend to focus on one or two headline issues such as local health services, immigration or pandering to certain social groups (eg pensioners, would-be home-owners etc.). And policies between parties often do not differ substantially, and there is no compulsion for parties to implement their promises, and once in power a party still has to negotiate Bills through two Houses and/or manoeuvre it round the civil service. Representative demcoracy is cumbersome and imperfect. It's not a bad system, but average individuals really have no power.

Soveryupset Sat 22-Mar-14 20:37:39

Mrz you are very right in that I am strongly against a 9-5 school day. Even though I am a full time working parent, I would prefer more choice when it comes to childcare. In my home country for example they still do 3 hour school days but then offer afternoons as play, crafts and activities for free until 4pm. Some parents opt out as they don't work and would rather do their own thing, others go into other settings or with family.

However that's besides the point. I like the idea of unions but would prefer stronger grassroot action aimed at inconveniencing government and I am not sure In the current set up strikes deliver that at all.

Soveryupset Sat 22-Mar-14 20:42:44

And I agree with donewithstruggling. Also once in power there is nothing stopping parties going back on their manifesto promises- we have had a number of examples of it recently!!

NearTheWindymill Sat 22-Mar-14 20:49:54

I haven't read it all but I agree entirely with the OP. Our DC go to private schools - if there teachers there went on strike I would deduct a day's fees. When the school closed due to snow we were sent a letter explaining how the learning time would be made up.

I also suspect there will be a lot more fuss over uni lecturers going on strike now that students are paying 9k a year.

Totally agree; don't dictate when my child can have a day off when the professionals are taking a day off in protest and it affects hundreds of children.

Sauce for the goose and all that. Does little to make me respect the teaching profession. If you want to dictate to me or my children then remain beyond reproach.

spanieleyes Sat 22-Mar-14 20:54:07

I suggest you try reading ALL the thread then, since you seem to have little clue!

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Sat 22-Mar-14 20:55:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hulababy Sat 22-Mar-14 20:56:50

Teachers have a legal right to strike. The decision is never taken lightly.

The LEA cannot do anything about it.

Supply teachers are not allowed to cover. Other teachers and TAs are not allowed to cover for striking staff.

My school does not shut all its classes during a teacher's strike. Only the classes where the teacher involved is striking is closed. This time 4 out of 9 classes are open; the other five are closed. Last time only 1 of 9 classes remained open as more unions were involved. All TAs and support staff will also be in work as normal. The decision to close the whole school is made my the HT as far as I know, not the LEA.

PansBigChainring Sat 22-Mar-14 20:57:28

Near - the teachers are not 'taking a day off' - they are striking and losing a day's pay to do that in order to defend the quality of education in this country. < and of course I hope your privately-educated children tell you how to use 'their' as well>

I am suspecting though from your post that you have little regard for the teaching profession - cost rather than value appears to be your immediate concern.

NearTheWindymill Sat 22-Mar-14 20:57:32

Oh really. Do you have to shout in capitals becuase you are a TEACHER - who knows better than the mere parents who also go to work and work extremely hard then?

Why precisely do I have so little clued - is it possibly because I might not agree with you.

Hulababy Sat 22-Mar-14 20:57:57

Oh - and teachers do not say that your child cannot miss school for a holiday. They have no say whatsoever over that decision.It isn't the teacher's fault that children cannot take holidays - that is a Government thing, and an LEA upheld matter.

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Sat 22-Mar-14 21:00:13

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PansBigChainring Sat 22-Mar-14 21:01:18

Caps are for emphasis, not shouting. And yes your disdain for education is v apparent.

Feenie Sat 22-Mar-14 21:02:26

Does little to make me respect the teaching profession

But you didn't anyway, as you've made apparent ad nauseam on thread after thread, under this username and your last.

Meh.

NearTheWindymill Sat 22-Mar-14 21:03:04

Then they should have defended the quality of education ten years ago because it was the dire standards that forced us to move our children to the indy sector. You know teachers who labelled the horizontal axis as y and who didn't in the capacity as teachers know how to use an apostrophe. We sent our dd to a top 100 comp where the head denied there was a problem with behaviour when a girl was beaten up. Would you like me go on?

I think I do know quite a lot about the standards of state education and I know that they are frankly not good enough and am very glad that I have a choice because of it.

When standards improve teachers will have an argument. When they allow performance management to take place they will have an argument. When they deal with behaviour without making crass excuses they will have an argument.

Until then I would not let my children have any truck with state education in this country. Absolute disgrace that it is. Michael Gove for PM!

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 22-Mar-14 21:04:20

NearTheWindymill

Teachers have a legal right to strike.

Also when decide to go on a term time holiday who do you expect to make up the shortfall in your child's education?

PansBigChainring Sat 22-Mar-14 21:04:32

oh is she/he a serial vandal then? Didn't know that. Though not at all surprised.

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Sat 22-Mar-14 21:04:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NearTheWindymill Sat 22-Mar-14 21:04:59

Oh pipe down Feenie. You aren't always right and if you were a good teacher you would be prepared to take on board the views of people who disagree with you. I didn't remove my children lightly from the state system - I had to because of the state the system was and is in.

crazynanna Sat 22-Mar-14 21:06:13

Michael Gove for PM!!!!!!

Jesus H Christ
Now I have heard it all

NearTheWindymill Sat 22-Mar-14 21:06:33

I am well aware teachers have the right to strike thank you. However, I dont' believe professionals do strike.

PansBigChainring Sat 22-Mar-14 21:06:57

Near is prob best left to her own rants. Gove? Really?

The rain round here is awful. Hail stones and everything!

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Sat 22-Mar-14 21:08:04

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Feenie Sat 22-Mar-14 21:08:17

Christ, not the axis story again.

Why bother changing your username when you appear on the same threads, saying the same things? Kind of defeats the object.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 22-Mar-14 21:08:32

"However, I dont' believe professionals do strike."

Then you would be wrong.

PansBigChainring Sat 22-Mar-14 21:09:04

Erm...Barristers, doctors, probation officers, nurses - all professionals and all striking since 2010. Near you exist in your own bubble.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 22-Mar-14 21:10:09

"I didn't remove my children lightly from the state system - I had to because of the state the system was and is in."

How do you know what the state of the system is in if you haven't been involved with it for 10 years?

Feenie Sat 22-Mar-14 21:10:24

And this from someone who cba to rtft - or spell 'their' correctly!

NearTheWindymill Sat 22-Mar-14 21:10:59

Well, well, it must touch a nerve to make teachers so angry.

Performance management is key. As far as I am concerned you can all have a 5% pay rise and your pension rights reinstated as per ten years ago providing your unions agree to robust performance management and speed in dispatching those of your number who require improvement. It is disgraceful that teachers who require improvement are allowed to inflict their incompetence on 30 children year after year after year after year.

ravenAK Sat 22-Mar-14 21:12:24

I would love to see this invoice! grin. Please, please post it OP.

I don't generally read the Sun, so if you don't post it I'll miss out on the version with the unflattering sadface photo of you captioned 'plucky mum'.

Good post MrsHerculePoirot.

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Sat 22-Mar-14 21:13:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CarrotIronfoundersson Sat 22-Mar-14 21:14:41

I'm sure this is going to fall on deaf ears, but I'll say it anyway. Teachers DO have Performance Management near, have done as long as I've been in the profession (since 2001).

PansBigChainring Sat 22-Mar-14 21:15:35

I'm not a teacher - your ignorance should shame you, but I'm sure it doesn't. You appear to be someone who types marginally better than than think.

Feenie Sat 22-Mar-14 21:16:37

She has been told that time after time - doesn't sink in.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 22-Mar-14 21:17:01

"Well, well, it must touch a nerve to make teachers so angry."
You must be very proud.

"Performance management is key. As far as I am concerned you can all have a 5% pay rise and your pension rights reinstated as per ten years ago providing your unions agree to robust performance management and speed in dispatching those of your number who require improvement."

How would you implement performance management?
What would be the criteria for success?
What areas would it take in to account?

"It is disgraceful that teachers who require improvement are allowed to inflict their incompetence on 30 children year after year after year after year."

How do you know that they are?
Can you provide evidence to supporting evidence?

near no teacher I know is against 'robust performance management', however I have yet to hear how this could be fairly implemented for teachers. If you have any excellent solutions please feel free to share with the unions....

rollonthesummer Sat 22-Mar-14 21:17:52

So you think that the standard of teachers wasn't good enough 10 years ago? You then think that by Gove destroying the teachers' terms and conditions, a better calibre of graduate will suddenly be desperate to train to teach, despite teachers now leaving the profession in droves.

Personally, I want teachers to be well paid and happy and I want the job to attract brilliant graduates who will educate and inspire my children!

EdithWeston Sat 22-Mar-14 21:18:38

Has anything appeared in The Sun yet?

(Being slightly cynical, I wonder if the temperature of this thread is informing their editorial line, assuming of course they know about it),

NearTheWindymill Sat 22-Mar-14 21:22:07

Read the fucking thread eh feenie. Can't you express yourself without resorting to foul language? You've been extremely rude to me over the years, so it's a shame you can't argue without resorting to foul language.

Now if you want to be very very rude do try to remember you aren't in the playground and foul language doesn't wash. And if you like you can even send me a very very rude and offensive pm again when I have tried politely to explain where I come from. Now that was really nice if you want to start being personal.

EdithWeston Sat 22-Mar-14 21:23:27

BTW, there's a thread just started in AIBU in case anyone want a look (but not saying anything that's not been thoroughly covered here).

spanieleyes Sat 22-Mar-14 21:24:38

Last year one of my performance management targets stated that 85% of children had to achieve level 4 in English and Maths ( as this is national average. Which would be fine, except I had 12 children in my year 6 group, so each child was worth 8%, including one child with a statement of Special Needs and went onto a Special Needs Secondary school as the local secondaries couldn't deal with his difficulties and one child who was on holiday during SATS week and we were refused permission for him to sit his tests later as we were honest and asked for permission, rather than saying he was ill. So 2 children didn't achieve the required level and I "failed" my performance management, despite the fact that every other child exceeded expectations.

When someone comes up with a fair means of performance management then count me in, my results stand for themselves, otherwise think again!

EdithWeston Sat 22-Mar-14 21:27:46

NearTheWindyMill - are you stalking Feenie from thread to thread? One use of "Christ" is all that has appeared on this thread. And I think your personal attack on Feenie is wholly unwarranted on the issues in this thread.

NearTheWindymill Sat 22-Mar-14 21:29:34

If you were performance managed on that basis Spanieleyes you would have strong mitigating circumstances and nothing could possibly stick. It would be an idiot who tried to performance manage on that basis.

2little1s Sat 22-Mar-14 21:30:42

let's not forget that all these teachers who are outraged get about 13 weeks holiday each year...that's about a quarter of the year.
Of course there can be performance management...you lot just don't like the idea so make the excuse that it can't/won't be objective. Yes Gove for PM...he'd be brilliant.
And just for the record I was a senior manager in schools for years and am now a governor so I know quite a lot about teachers and how important their holidays are. Of course they are not striking about the quality of education....funny how they only go on strike when their conditions of service are affected. I've also worked for OFSTEAD so I have observed many teachers. You may try to pull the wool over parents' eyes but Ii don't blame anyone for going private.

NearTheWindymill Sat 22-Mar-14 21:30:52

I'm certainly not stalking her but she has sent me a vile pm in the past and has been bringing up my name change regularly lately. If any stalking started it wasn't started by me.

Somersaults Sat 22-Mar-14 21:31:58

Erm, except that's how performance management works across the board now. Didn't you know that children are not individuals with individual needs and issues? They're all actually just statistics. Each one expected to just do 'the norm'. Wait, no, every child is now expected to make better than average progress or your teacher isn't good enough. Although if everyone is above average then surely that isn't average? Another one of Gove's amazingly stupid ideas.

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Sat 22-Mar-14 21:32:08

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ravenAK Sat 22-Mar-14 21:33:35

well, NearThewindymill, my PM targets require that 1) my year 11s are to hit their targets (currently averaging 1/2 a grade above them), 2) I get a 'good' or better lesson observations with the same group (not dropped below 'good with outstanding features' in years) & 3) I organise a shedload of extra stuff (boosters, mentoring colleagues, organising trips, that sort of thing).

I won't be getting the 5% you're so kindly offering because I'm at the top of the payscale & not eligible for further increments, but I'm happy not to take it anyway, given that my colleague with an extremely challenging bottom set year 11 is unlikely to meet the first two of hers, despite being an excellent teacher & working considerably harder than I have to with my nice, clever, top set.

Luckily for her, she's not eligible for a threshold increment this year, as she'd be unlikely to get it; HOD will make sure she gets a group with whom it's do-able next year, & it'll be my turn for a 'challenging' group.

which is only fair, but colleague's actually much better with the lower ability groups than I am, & enjoys working with them.

So my experience is: we do have robust PM, & generally that's fine, but it distorts all sorts of other stuff which is also quite important - like matching students to the person with the best skills.

It also doesn't reward the right people - there's no question that my colleague will have done more than me by June to earn any incentives going - & yet the data would have it that I've 'met my targets' & she hasn't.

Who is OFSTEAD?!?!?

NearTheWindymill Sat 22-Mar-14 21:34:42

That cannot be how performance management works because performance management has to evidence a fair dismissal and a fair process that takes account of all factors. If anything else is being implemented then managers are behaving inappropriately and beyond employment law and on that basis there would be a case for unfair dismissal or a union supported appeal.

But, then, what would I know smile

spanieleyes Sat 22-Mar-14 21:36:21

Clearly very little.

Somersaults Sat 22-Mar-14 21:36:44

What do you think teachers are striking about?!

ravenAK Sat 22-Mar-14 21:36:47

But, then, what would I know

On the basis of your comments on this thread, you mean? Or do you also work for OFSTEAD? grin

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Sat 22-Mar-14 21:36:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Feenie Sat 22-Mar-14 21:37:15

I said rtft. But you can type the long version if you like and take offence if you like.

Ah, yes, the pm. Would that be the one where you first sent me an EXTREMELY goady pm off thread, knowing EXACTLY how I would react, and ran crying to MN when I inevitably did? I'm really surprised you've mentioned that, given that you revealed your Dh's job in it and begged me not to say anything.

Don't worry, your silly secret is safe - but in your position I really wouldn't say any more, your behaviour was and is absolutely outrageous.

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 21:37:25

2little1s I mark no apologies for having 13 weeks a year off, the hours I work for the rest of the year make up for it. I also think that the job needs to have perks to attract people like it. I left a previous much higher paying career because I wanted those 13 weeks a year off. I remain in the job because I want those 13 weeks year off.

Teachers are striking about the terms of service but also about the changes in education with are detrimental to our young people .

I have no real issue with PRP but acknowledge that it is difficult to do fairly.

Abbierhodes Sat 22-Mar-14 21:38:10

"I've also worked for OFSTEAD"
PMSL! You've blown it 2little1s, you may as well fuck off now!

Merefin Sat 22-Mar-14 21:39:22

WindyMill the PM requirements that people have posted here are very typical of the requirements in schools over the last few years...it really is how PM is working in schools at the moment. Hence the unions being very active in their opposition.

2little1s if you had worked for Ofsted you would be very aware of the requirement about never revealing your status on social media.

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 21:40:51

She has made a typo, why are people laying into her for that? My post is littered with typos. The 3rd word is a typo! Will I get ripped to shred for it?

EdithWeston Sat 22-Mar-14 21:41:03

RTFT is "read the full thread" isn't it? (like RTFQ, as used when marking, is 'read the full question').

And, wherever sword have crosse in the past, it's reasonably clear who has stalked whom on to this thread. And it's unedifying.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 22-Mar-14 21:41:24

near

That is exactly how PM works in schools.

2little1s

"funny how they only go on strike when their conditions of service are affected"

Funny that for someone who knows so much about teachers you don't know that they are only allowed to go on strike about their terms and conditions.

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Sat 22-Mar-14 21:42:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

teacherwith2kids Sat 22-Mar-14 21:43:21

There has been performance management in teaching for many years. As well as targets involving children's levels etc, there is also the very obvious 'being observed teaching' process that occurs very regularly indeed - every half term in many schools, IME never less than once a term by members of the SMT - not top mention Ofsted inspections when those observation judgements are externally benchmarked as part of the inspection process.

It is interesting that those outside teaching see the introduction of performance related PAY to mean the beginning of performance management. Believe you me, the direct performance management - in terms of extra scrutiny, involvement of other teachers, SMT, advisors, subject leaders, HT, minute scutiny of plans etc etc - that follows on from a 'requires improvment' lesson observation, or in many schools aiming for Outstanding even a Good lesson observation is far more rigorous and 'hands on' than anything I ever saw when working in the private sector. And the same at a school-wide level for a school that gets RI or lower in Ofsted - the level of perfomance management in such schools is intense, daily, almost unbearable at times. But somehow, because it doesn't involve that word 'pay', it isn't recognised as performance management by those outside. Odd.

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 21:44:16

Should PM say that a percentage of children should hit a certain a certain level or grade regardless or target?

This year my two teaching targets are
80% of an exam class to hit a target
Rewrite certain schemes of work

Feenie Sat 22-Mar-14 21:44:34

It wasn't vile, you know it wasn't - I replied in exactly the same heated manner as I had on the thread to a PM you sent me first! Your behaviour is really, really odd. There was no way I was going to reply with hearts and flowers and you knew that. I asked you never ever to fucking attempt to pm me again and you chose to say because of that I had 'abused' you by pm. But you know that is all I said - as anyone in that position would, having been contacted by someone they were having a ding dong with on a public thread.

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 21:45:10

How do we know it was not a typo or an autocorrect?

Erm... I think you'll find that is exactly how performance management works. You have to get children to meet progress targets. Those are based upon all children learning at a linear rate irrespective of anything outside the classroom. I have a bottom set year nine, I am immensely proud of them, they turn up,to my lessons, behave and give the maths a go which is a massive achievement for them compared to last year. Many of them have tough home lives, are looked after children, or have to look after their younger siblings on a daily basis, 85% of them are pupil premium, 75% of them are on the SEN register. They have no confidence, little self esteem and no-one outside of school who believes in education. I am judged on whether or not they make two sub levels of progress the same as my colleagues who,teach the top set where we have children mostly with stable home lives, supportive parents, time and space to do work and people that support them in their education.

rollonthesummer Sat 22-Mar-14 21:45:27

2little1s-are you a teacher?

DakotaFanny Sat 22-Mar-14 21:46:50

.

2little1s Sat 22-Mar-14 21:47:38

Ok so I made a typo....have you never made one? I will reveal what I like on here, it is up to me. Despite your swearing I will continue posting.
GOVE FOR PM!

X-posts with loads of you!

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 22-Mar-14 21:48:55

rollon

I have just noticed that 2little1s never mentions teaching just "senior management", being a governor and OFSTEAD (sic).

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Sat 22-Mar-14 21:49:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

spanieleyes Sat 22-Mar-14 21:50:34

Mine this year says
85% of children achieve level 4 ( this year I have 1 statement, 5 EAL, 4 on the SEN register, go figure!)
all children to make at least 2 levels progress
all lesson observations to be good or better.

It will be the same next year ( and then I have 2 statemented children!!, 1 EAL and 3 SEN) so I can't see any pay rises on the horizon.

At least I love my job!

teacherwith2kids Sat 22-Mar-14 21:50:47

(Apologies, thread moved on while I typed that. My PM targets involve every member of my mnaths group making an average of 5 points (that's just under 2 full NC levels) of progress this year. Which is more that ANY of them have made in total over the previous 2 years. But because the school has an unrealistic target from Gcve / Ofsted, each individual teacher simply feels the knock-on effect of its ridiculousness. I don't mind that I will get no pay increase - but I do mind the fact that I can, and do, get a series iof Outstandings in lesson observations / book scrutiny etc but because the numerical target is almost unattainable [I teach a low set] I am regarded as 'failing'.)

Soveryupset Sat 22-Mar-14 21:51:59

But when performance management is rolled out from the top of such a large organisation, including teaching but also other private or public bodies, it will never be totally fair. Broad brush rules never are as they do not and cannot take into account the local situation/individual circumstances and all the various twists in between.

The sensible thing to do would be for local management to apply these with a degree of fairness relating to both staff and students. Governments seem to be removing more and more power and decision making from heads and this is certainly not what you would expect from a non-leftist government!

So I sympathise with the objections but can't say am shocked as many of us working for large organisations have had this sort of system for 20 years now including a full erosion of pensions.

crazynanna Sat 22-Mar-14 21:52:01

But 2little...you are required to not reveal your OFSTED status Merefin has informed. So..you can't reveal what you like then, can you? As you are obliged not to.

rollonthesummer Sat 22-Mar-14 21:52:20

Boneybackjefferson-interesting, isn't it? I wonder what being a senior manager entails?

crazynanna Sat 22-Mar-14 21:53:05

Oh...and I have more chance of fitting a spaceship up my arse than Gove has of becoming PM

NearTheWindymill Sat 22-Mar-14 21:54:08

Well, I think it was Feenie and so did MN othewise they wouldn't have acknowledged the vitriol. I might have opinions about views and philosophies but I'm not usually rude to posters themselves. You picked over it the other day and have done it again today.

2little1s Sat 22-Mar-14 21:54:19

rollon...what I do is my business

rollonthesummer Sat 22-Mar-14 21:54:42

Did you work for Ofsted as an inspector?

teacherwith2kids Sat 22-Mar-14 21:54:53

"The sensible thing to do would be for local management to apply these with a degree of fairness relating to both staff and students."

I agree. Unfurtunately, as you point out, this option is not always available, as HTs have less freedom of manouvre.

Feenie Sat 22-Mar-14 21:55:15

Found the pm - I didn't actually even swear, and it is in no way vile. I am perfectly happy to post it here if you persist in spreading lies about it, minus any details which would out you because I am only interested in refuting your unfounded accusation that it was 'vile'.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 22-Mar-14 21:56:05

rollon - Bursar maybe. (insert the usual Pratchett flashbacks)

Feenie Sat 22-Mar-14 21:57:51

Just seen you last post insisting it was - are you happy for me to post it here then? And MN didn't do any such thing once I'd explained the goading. Please stop saying it was - you know it was not.

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 21:58:41

I know performance management is about pupils making progress but it shouldn't be about a certain number achieving a level - unless their data based on previous performance indicated that percentage.

rollonthesummer Sat 22-Mar-14 21:58:52

Would be very interested on reading the PM, Feenie!

Feenie Sat 22-Mar-14 22:00:33

Would be happy for anyone to read it - with Wendy's permission, and minus anything which would out her as a courtesy.

Feenie Sat 22-Mar-14 22:01:47

Wendy? Windy!

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 22-Mar-14 22:01:54

Philoslophy

The problem is that the previous data is from the end of KS2 so is not only five years out of date but doesn't take in to account any recent issues that the child may have.

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Sat 22-Mar-14 22:01:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

spanieleyes Sat 22-Mar-14 22:03:20

But it is, that's why the unions are objecting to performance management. Not because of the principal -that good teachers should be rewarded for good performance- but because of how it is applied. As a year 6 teacher I HAVE to ensure the children reach the levels required to keep the school out of OFSTED's clutches, the Head is not permitted by the SIP to set PM targets which are below that required by floor targets so I am stuck! Just as no teacher will be willing to take on lower sets in future, no one will want to teach Year 6!

BoffinMum Sat 22-Mar-14 22:03:43

Gove is highly unlikely to become PM as a lot of senior Tories reckon he's lost the plot completely and they are gunning for him.

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 22:03:58

I am not saying that it is not without issues, which is why PM targets shouldn't be about 100% of students hitting target and may have an attendance clause in. However they should not be random figures of children hitting a random level or grade.

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 22:04:49

Our GCSE targets are based on key stage three performance , using KS2 based targets as a starting point.

Hulababy Sat 22-Mar-14 22:06:32

I suppose one benefit if Gove was PM, at least everyone else could see exactly what it is like to have their lives affected by him. Not sure he would last very long though.

spanieleyes Sat 22-Mar-14 22:07:34

And mine are based on achieving above floor targets!

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 22-Mar-14 22:08:12

Are your KS3 performance levels graded in house? as there are no longer any national tests at the end of KS3.

We have to use the FFT and they are from KS2.

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 22:09:45

Yes graded in house.

Departments are given the FFT data and then we alter them (if needed) in line with key stage three data and our knowledge of the pupils.

forceslover Sat 22-Mar-14 22:10:02

Teachers please ask your unions to call a strike on a Friday so I can have a long weekend away! A Wednesday is no good! grin

BoffinMum Sat 22-Mar-14 22:10:11

My theory is that Gove went to the US recently to pave the way for a possible job within Pearson or a similar company, flogging dodgy IT based instruction systems to the schools of the globe, undermining state education systems. If he doesn't get to be PM.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 22-Mar-14 22:11:52

Philoslothy I am impressed we are not allowed to deviate from the FFT that is set.

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 22:13:07

Eyebrows would be raised if departments only put targets down and not up.

Seems a very sensible way of doing things to me.

ravenAK Sat 22-Mar-14 22:16:10

Ours are based on KS2 philoslothy - the argument being that RAISEonline etc looks at KS2 data. 4 levels of progress is the new mantra.

Also, if you're teaching a non-core subject things get properly weird.

My English targets are KS2-based.

My Latin targets are based on History target or MFL target - whichever is the higher - which are in turn based on KS2 English (& arcane demographic data).

This doesn't cause me a huge problem as the Latin cohort are self-selecting high achievers - they have to be in top set for MFL in year 8, in order to be allowed to spend year 9 attending an afterschool club, in order to be accepted onto the GCSE course.

Not necessarily the case for the Geography or Food GCSE students, say.

Lottiedoubtie Sat 22-Mar-14 22:21:14

Gove is highly unlikely to become PM as a lot of senior Tories reckon he's lost the plot completely and they are gunning for him.

Please God let this be true.

alldoublestandards Sat 22-Mar-14 22:37:24

Out of interest, did the last teacher strike achieve anything?

The NUT state that the main reasons for striking are: excessive workload and bureaucracy,performance related pay and unfair pension changes. These issues are just what a lot of working people have to deal with these days unfortunately. I am in a union that did arrange strikes in the 80's over pay and conditions but it didn't make any difference- the changes went ahead anyway.

I do find it interesting that the NUT states ' Teachers’ working hours are also inflexible. It is very difficult for teachers to take time off during term time, for example to attend an event at their own child’s school'. But a lot of working people have this problem - it's not uncommon and just limited to teachers.

ravenAK Sat 22-Mar-14 22:38:57

Actually. I read an article about the Tory 'possibles' t'other day - Theresa May (shark eyed racist), Osbourne (clueless towel folder) or Boris (sociopath).

If I were a Tory, I'd probably be picking Pob out of that lot.

Tbh, they can have him for Leader & welcome to him as far as I'm concerned, if it stops him dismantling the education system in order to give its assets to his mates & get his mug in the tabloids.

rollonthesummer Sat 22-Mar-14 22:40:23

I do find it interesting that the NUT states ' Teachers’ working hours are also inflexible. It is very difficult for teachers to take time off during term time, for example to attend an event at their own child’s school'. But a lot of working people have this problem - it's not uncommon and just limited to teachers.

But in most jobs, you CAN book a day off-to go to an appointment/a child's play etc?

Somersaults Sat 22-Mar-14 22:44:50

Lots of people have difficulties booking the exact days off that they may need. However as a teacher I struggle to make dentist appointments, I had a chest infection for five weeks and had to wait another week to get a GP appointment because I can only book evening appointments. I cannot attend any of the vents at my daughter's preschool. It is not a case of trying to book one holiday for one event and failing but managing to make another event later in the year. I cannot ever attend any events. I knew all this when I signed up. However, in addition to that I spend part of the evenings and weekend days that I can spend with DD doing prep, assessment and many other things for other people's children and I am in no way rewarded or recognised for that. I don't mind a bit of give and take, but it is all take from teachers at the moment.

Somersaults Sat 22-Mar-14 22:45:08

*events.

2little1s Sat 22-Mar-14 22:46:52

no it's not you get 13 weeks holiday.

2013go Sat 22-Mar-14 22:48:39

Don't know why you'd want to invoice the LEA- Gove and co have made entirely sure that they run very few schools these days- instead they've handed over schools and land that belonged to is all to private companies and Tory donors.

stillenacht Sat 22-Mar-14 22:49:02

Absolutely Somersaults

Somersaults Sat 22-Mar-14 22:52:49

But I take nothing like that amount of holiday! Do you think that from the last day of term in July to the first day of the new term in September I sit around and do nothing? How does my classroom get prepared for the new school year? How do children's names get stuck on trays and pegs? Who prepares all their books sticking in title pages, targets and 'I can' statements? Who back the walls and puts up displays so that the classroom is an attractive place to be for the new class? How do the lessons the children do in the first week get planned or prepared? I spend at least two weeks of every summer holiday in school completing handover for my old class and preparing for my new class. And at least part of every other school holiday in school planning or assessing. Assuming we all take ours holidays is the same as assuming we work 9-3. It is a total myth. None of the evening or weekend hours I spend planning or marking are being taken into account here either. I am entitled to just over two hours of planning, preparation and assessment time each week to plan five whole days worth of preferably 'outstanding' lessons, mark thirty x a whole week's worth of work and accurately assess and track every child in my class to ensure they are making progress. I know of not one teacher who can achieve all that in two hours a week.

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 22:53:42

I think flexible must be relative, I find teaching very flexible. I can't book a holiday during term time, but I can't anyway with school age children. I can and have made medical appointments during the school day. I can leave school at 3:30 a few evenings a week and then catch up with work when the children are asleep.

stillenacht Sat 22-Mar-14 22:54:31

We are also not allowed to deviate from FFT. My whole class predicted A*/A despite having quite a few non musicians (we are talking about pupils who are more likely level 5 at best, therefore grade E candidates)hmm chose my subject (I have no say) because they thought it would be fun....

Pooka Sat 22-Mar-14 22:57:44

Were you an ofsted inspector 2little1s? In schools?

I heard in the news the other day that ofsted had been criticised for low calibre of its inspectors.....

Somersaults Sat 22-Mar-14 22:59:22

Perhaps different schools are flexible in different ways. Maybe it depends on your HT. But I would have to have an incredibly good reason to be making medical appointments during the school day. I can bring some work home but due to latest safeguarding and data protection policies an awful lot of my assessment, target setting and tracking work can now only be done on site as assessment data cannot be taken home.

Lottiedoubtie Sat 22-Mar-14 23:00:00

no it's not you get 13 weeks holiday.

Do you know what? I have LOADS more than 13 weeks holiday. It's great and one of the things I love about my job in an independent school.

Bringing up holidays is just goading. Holidays aren't new. They aren't a perk given because teachers are inherently lazy. They are a by product of the education system designed for the benefit of children not teachers.

Having long holidays does not mean you cannot complain about anything else ever.

I won't be striking (wrong union) and anyway most independent school NUT members won't strike because it isn't our T&Cs Gove is eroding.

It doesn't mean I don't have every sympathy with the strikers. And if I worked in the state sector (and was NUT) I'd be out.

It's called empathy and understanding the issues.

If I was a banker, barrister, doctor etc... I'd get less holiday, but a damn sight more pay overall... I choose not to work in the state sector because of Michael Gove.

Feenie Sat 22-Mar-14 23:01:25

I take it from your silence that you won't be making any more goady accusations re pms, Windy. Good.

ilovesooty Sat 22-Mar-14 23:02:53

I'm becoming quite worried (on the basis of this thread) about the kind of people who are recruited as governors and their level of knowledge and awareness.

AskBasil Sat 22-Mar-14 23:03:25

I expect most of the schools are academies.

So no point invoicing the LEA.

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 23:05:04

To be fair I am inherently lazy which is why I went into a job with 13 weeks holiday.

Somersaults Sat 22-Mar-14 23:07:35

Given that the issue a lot of parents seem to have about te strike is their inconvenience at having to take a day off work I decided to look at what I could earn as a babysitter instead of a teacher. I looked up on uk.care.com what the babysitting rate is per hour in my area considering my experience. I then asked it to calculate my wage per year based on the going rate and then I multiplied it by thirty to take into account the number of children I 'babysit' on a daily basis. Wowsers are we teachers underpaid according to uk.care.com! And we don't even just babysit! We actually seek to impart knowledge too!

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 23:08:45

Add message | Report | Message poster Somersaults Sat 22-Mar-14 22:59:22
Perhaps different schools are flexible in different ways. Maybe it depends on your HT. But I would have to have an incredibly good reason to be making medical appointments during the school day. I can bring some work home but due to latest safeguarding and data protection policies an awful lot of my assessment, target setting and tracking work can now only be done on site as assessment data cannot be taken home.

Obviously I don't make appointments for minor sniffles during the school day. However during my pregnancy my appointments were often during the school day and I went. After a miscarriage I had some counselling and that was during the school day.

If I was told that I could not take home assessment data, marking and tracking I would quit - immediately!

Somersaults Sat 22-Mar-14 23:10:54

I can say that my HT has never quibbled about a maternity based appointment (and wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they did!) but GP and dentist appointments in the school day are a no no.

Marking I can bring home but my assessment file and any electronic assessment data on a pen drive for example may not be.

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 23:14:47

I do all of my data analysis at home, I can also access SIMS from home as well as my pupils files.

My school shuts at 6pm and I am often teaching until 5, I need to be able to do the work at home.

It differs greatly on the type of school you are at I think. Working at an undersubscribed comprehensive trying its hardest to turn things around is for me a very different experience to when I worked at an over subscribed selective school.

ravenAK Sat 22-Mar-14 23:25:46

I definitely don't get 13 weeks holiday, although I do get 13 weeks for which I'm not paid.

Christmas holidays: spent most of the weekend of 21st/22nd sleeping, 23rd worked all day catching up on KS3 marking. I took Xmas Eve off, & Xmas Day off until everyone went to bed, then did several hours planning through the night. Took Boxing Day off, worked full days 27th-31st marking Controlled Assessments for year 11, New Year's Day off, back in school 2nd & 3rd January setting classroom up etc & meeting with new, inexperienced staff member who needed me to do his planning with him. wrote 60 reports over the weekend of 4th/5th. Term started again on the 6th.

Spring half term: worked full days Monday-Thursday marking year 11 GCSE mocks.

Easter holidays: running a school trip abroad for the first week. Have booked a 3 day break with family & then back into school for at least one day to teach a missed Controlled Assessment to a student who had one of those lovely term time holidays.

Summer half-term: GCSE examiner standardising (to be fair I get paid for that one!), then into school for a minimum of 2 days to run last minute GCSE revision.

& I could, of course, refuse to do all the teaching/revision bits of that - the marking & planning wouldn't go away - but then I wouldn't hit those Performance Management targets...

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 23:28:11

It just goes to show how different schools are. I do nothing in the holidays, var a quick tidy over the summer and results day. I know of very few staff who come in at all levels of seniority. Have always met my targets and been promoted a few times.

crazynanna Sat 22-Mar-14 23:31:23

My DD's English teacher, for the last 3 holidays (half terms,etc) has come into school, inc Saturdays for English GCSE revision for the class. And he has a young family. He does it off his own steam. I am eternally grateful to him.

Is your school a comprehensive if you don't mind me asking philoslothy?

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 23:32:56

I am sure his children are less grateful.

Somersaults Sat 22-Mar-14 23:33:15

I think primary and secondary schools differ too in the type of work that needs to be done out of school hours and the amount of each type of work. And it differs across different ages within primary too. Ks1 and eyfs have a lot of classroom prep and sorting to be done in terms of continuous provision for the children whereas ks2 have more intensive marking to complete. Our ks2 teachers tend to be gone fairly quickly most Fridays for example while ks1 staff are there until much later as they have to set up activities for Monday morning.

Philoslothy Sat 22-Mar-14 23:33:59

Yes, well almost a comprehensive we use a few to the grammar just over the border - but not many.

crazynanna Sat 22-Mar-14 23:35:58

Maybe, Philoslothy, but My DD is grateful, and it shows the level of dedication these '13 weeks a year holiday' teachers actually have

somer agree completely, I think primary have it worse tbh, then at secondary English have it worst in terms of all the marking assessment and feedback stuff. I am glad it is relatively easy to mark in my subject, takes hours to fill in all the forms and feedback, response, discussion loop studs, but we have no coursework/controlled assessments in Maths - we just have to teach/tutor small groups after school, Saturdays, holidays etc... To get them through (we do get paid a bit extra for Saturdays and holidays).

ravenAK Sat 22-Mar-14 23:41:45

To be fair I'm having the marking/revision session year from hell Philoslothy - core, marking heavy subject, & inherited an additional GCSE group from a departing NQT who'd made a right bollocks of their CAs, we found out when she'd gone...plus we've lost the November entry so had to do an extra internally marked mock.

Also, I've somehow ended up with all top/middle sets - that in itself means I do at least 3 more hours marking each week than last year when I had a couple of tiny bottom sets.

I've no intention of doing anything over the summer holiday - usually there are new schemes of learning to write but have agreed with HOD that the Dept will have had my pound of flesh by then, & some other mug can do them.

Poppiesway Sun 23-Mar-14 08:26:43

Like Crazynanna my sons school have run extra GCSE revision days during school holidays to help the children out.
They also run after school lessons for those that want to attend and boost their results.
These sessions are excellent, they do not have to do these extra lessons in their own time.
Although the strike is an inconvenience I fully support them during the strike.

stillenacht Sun 23-Mar-14 08:32:30

Yup I run revision sessions after school and will be going in during Easter for a 6 hours revision session (I'm part time)- on top of all the music clubs I run.

donnie Sun 23-Mar-14 11:45:49

grin - 2little1s, so .....you're a teacher are you?

and you know "loads of governors and teachers who support Gove " do you?

and you work for 'OFSTEAD'(your spelling, not mine) do you? wink.

Oh really?

Now, it wouldn't be very nice of me to accuse you of inventing a load of bollocks just to rile people up, but you have got me sniggering ! seriously though, it is more than evident that you aren't quite able to tell the truth......there, I said it nicely wink

clam Sun 23-Mar-14 13:37:13

I presume I'm not the only one who's sniggering over windy's outrage about spellings and misplaced apostrophes by teachers when she herself wrote dont' and the wrong there.

And Performance Management has been established in schools for many years.

That's about all I can be arsed to offer to this ridiculous thread, to be honest. Apart from to point out that most of the 13 weeks' holiday is unpaid.

Back to work...

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Sun 23-Mar-14 15:34:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Feenie Sun 23-Mar-14 15:40:15

grin grin

Tiredemma Sun 23-Mar-14 15:44:47

GOVE FOR PM!

Please. You need help.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 23-Mar-14 18:14:02

Tiredemma
"GOVE FOR PM!

Please. You need help."

She doesn't need help. She just needs to stop goady posts.

mrz Sun 23-Mar-14 18:16:16

perhaps she's Mrs Gove wink

TheReluctantCountess Sun 23-Mar-14 18:20:17

Is there a Mrs Gove? Poor woman.

mrz Sun 23-Mar-14 18:28:18

Oh yes there's a Mrs Gove wink

AnguaResurgam Sun 23-Mar-14 18:30:25

Not only is there a Mrs Gove, but there is at least one Gove Junior.

mammadiggingdeep Sun 23-Mar-14 19:09:50

Urgggghhhhh. A mrs Gove?!

I think I just vommed a bit!

Dinosaursareextinct Sun 23-Mar-14 20:45:06

I just looked up some photos of Mrs Gove (in fact called Sarah Vine). She looks attractive in a strong real woman way. A newspaper columnist?

mrz Sun 23-Mar-14 20:51:12

for the Daily Shame

Feenie Sun 23-Mar-14 21:05:25

She pops on under a pseudonym every now and again - she is easily spotted. wink

chicaguapa Sun 23-Mar-14 21:14:03

Proof that there's someone for everyone though. wink

2little1s Sun 23-Mar-14 21:26:27

I am a recently retired head teacher who occasionally makes a typo...as I did in an earlier post. I am now a governor. I worked for many years in the state sector....so yes I know many teachers and governors and have no need to lie.

Feenie Sun 23-Mar-14 21:33:26

Then why are you not aware that teachers are not automatically awarded an increment and post threshold haven't for a very long time?

mrz Sun 23-Mar-14 21:40:26

and that final salary pensions were replaced with CARE pensions

clam Sun 23-Mar-14 21:50:00

Or the reasons teachers are allowed to strike.

clam Sun 23-Mar-14 21:53:41

Or that there's no A in Ofsted.

Sorry, but your posts don't read as if from a recent Head Teacher.

mammadiggingdeep Sun 23-Mar-14 21:56:20

I agree...it doesn't ring true...

Lottiedoubtie Sun 23-Mar-14 21:58:13

Recently retired head teacher? Don't make me laugh!

mammadiggingdeep Sun 23-Mar-14 22:00:00

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

clam Sun 23-Mar-14 22:07:54

And actually, even pre-Threshold, incremental points are no longer automatically awarded. Younger/newer teachers are at the mercy of circumstances often beyond their control for any salary increase.

Forgettable Sun 23-Mar-14 22:14:07

Mammadiggingdeep please stop judging them by their attractiveness, it's one thing to dislike folk for what they do and say but to pick on physical attributes cheapens and maybe negates your argument

A shame because this thread is mostly amazingly clever articulate posters posing cogent questions and rebutting ridiculousnesses easily, thank you all

Sorry for the po-face

Feenie Sun 23-Mar-14 22:18:19

That's what I meant - but then, a retired head would know all this.

Maybe 2little1s was just a really, really shit one?

clam Sun 23-Mar-14 22:22:59

Swearing again, feenie? Tut. wink

Feenie Sun 23-Mar-14 22:28:07

Clearly I am bringing the profession into disrepute wink

Someone did actually say that to me on MN, merely because I had the temerity to disagree with her. There really are some total fruit loops around.

clam Sun 23-Mar-14 22:28:17

OK, fair enough, forgettable, but can we at least have another airing of this

mammadiggingdeep Sun 23-Mar-14 22:37:33

Forgettable...I was actually being light hearted and if you saw me in the flesh you'd know that I'm not one to judge on looks...glass houses etc.

You say 'keep'...I don't think I've judged Gove in his looks before...I'm usually too busy ranting about his shit politics.

Not sure who you think you are being quite so judgey pants on whose posts are articulate or not...ofsted inspector by profession perchance??

mammadiggingdeep Sun 23-Mar-14 22:39:24

Clam...thank you, thank you, thank you for posting that.

Just finished three hours of marking...the perfect end to a Sunday evening watching that grin

Forgettable Sun 23-Mar-14 22:44:25

mammadiggingdeep, many apologies, misread the tone

Titter at the clip, clam

rollonthesummer Sun 23-Mar-14 22:45:53

I am a recently retired head teacher

and I'm the Pope.

Leggingsandtrainersnonono Sun 23-Mar-14 22:50:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

juniper44 Mon 24-Mar-14 00:32:56

Clam I have certainly watched that clip a fair few times. It doesn't stop being funny.

I too call bullshit on the 'I was a head' statement. And, oh my god, I did swear. Well fuck me. Obviously we teachers should be above that sort of shit.

juniper44 Mon 24-Mar-14 00:33:55

Why are we even engaging with this stupid argument?

ilovesooty Mon 24-Mar-14 09:36:30

recently retired headteacher

One who has spectacularly failed to remain abreast of developments in education then.

Another one who's finding the smell of bullshit overpowering.

A recently retired headteacher in your own little world maybe.

Dont worry, in my own special world I am the Queen and I ride a unicorn.

Dinosaursareextinct Mon 24-Mar-14 11:16:40

Lottie - it's much harder to become a doctor or barrister (can't say about bankers) than a teacher. And I think it's been established recently that many barristers are quite badly paid.
Teachers are quite well paid, and in addition to that they get loads of holiday and pension and the chance to be in a meaningful union and more job security than most.

clam Mon 24-Mar-14 11:32:43

Unpaid holiday. Or did I already mention that?

"Well-paid?" compared with whom?

"Job security?" Not these days.

"Meaningful union?" That everyone's slating because they're creating a hassle for other working parents to find childcare on Wednesday.

Well paid?? Would you care to elaborate on this?

Dinosaursareextinct Mon 24-Mar-14 11:56:17

You can call it unpaid all you want. The fact is that you earn national median level or above salary, get loads of holiday (almost 3 times the norm), a union that fights for you and has some muscle (many many workplaces have no union presence) and, believe me, I know whereof I speak, you have masses more job security than people in the private sector. I have a relative in secondary state school teaching who for many years was a union rep. He used to talk about the schocking cases he dealt with. It was peanuts compared with what many private sector workers are put through. I appreciate that things are becoming tougher than they were though.

Dinosaursareextinct Mon 24-Mar-14 11:58:53

In many parts of the country teaching is seen as being really well paid. In this part of the country, for instance, there are hordes of qualified teachers competing for jobs. Similar level jobs outside of teaching are far worse paid, and have a third of the holiday entitlement.

Lottiedoubtie Mon 24-Mar-14 12:00:18

- it's much harder to become a doctor or barrister (can't say about bankers) than a teacher

You mean it takes longer to qualify. Of course it does. However, we should be trying to recruit people who are capable of these things to the profession because they are bright but passionate about teaching.

State school teachers being 'well paid' is subjective and whether or not you agree with this statement reflects mainly upon your view of teachers and their importance to society.

IMO they are not 'well paid', I am however, because I work in a large independent school. (Independent does not always mean more money, but it can be foundry you research your school carefully).

The pension is much less favourable than it was.

Why do people keep using things like the pension as a stick to say teachers shouldn't complain ....about losing their pensions.

Nonsensical.

Lottiedoubtie Mon 24-Mar-14 12:01:40

I'd be interested to hear what you consider to be an equivalent but less well paid job.

Dinosaursareextinct Mon 24-Mar-14 12:12:34

I didn't say that you were well paid, but plenty are paid worse and all others are probably on lower holiday entitlements and pension entitlements. Lots of different types of jobs. Just look around you.
It's not just that it takes longer to qualify as a barrister or doctor. It is also far harder to get on to the relevant courses and, in the case of a barrister, to find a tenancy (first job). You won't find many barristers or doctors who are not extremely bright (academically speaking) and with very high grades in their exams. Many people who simply would not find it possible to become a doctor or barrister, regardless of time spent and cost, could become a teacher.

TalkinPeace Mon 24-Mar-14 12:25:59

I know many people who think Michael Gove is an excellent Education Secretary and many are parents, governors and teachers

Hi Sarah, I liked your Chloe name better.

Lottiedoubtie Mon 24-Mar-14 12:46:48

Pah! Give an actual example or two please! I want to know what you consider to be an equivalent job. That will give us a clearer idea of where you really stand on the issue.

I'll give an example, of where you said teachers are quite well paid,

Teachers are quite well paid, and in addition to that...

Just to be fair wink

Dinosaursareextinct Mon 24-Mar-14 12:55:41

Ok, quite well paid in comparison with others. I actually find that many people are paid less than I would expect for what they do, IYSWIM. I could give you a few examples from the area I work in, but would prefer not to blow my "cover" completely. I know someone who did a management consultancy role with a statutory authority and was paid £25K, would be slightly more now. She had a first class degree from Oxbridge, plus a specialist MA and several years' high quality experience. I'd guess 5 or 6 weeks' holiday. On the recent legal aid thread a barrister was talking about earning £19K, with long hours, no rights to sick pay or pension and taking little holiday.
Some classes of employment I think are clearly overpaid - including doctors (a GP, which is considered lowly, I am told earns over 100 thousand, with consultants earning considerably more), and dentists (if paid on the NHS I gather they are paid 60 or 70 thousand, and if working privately, as is v common, they earn vastly more).

ilovesooty Mon 24-Mar-14 14:24:22

I was bullied in state school into a psychiatric ward under the Mental Health Act and underwent ECT.

But of course I expect that's peanuts compared to conditions in the private sector. I work for a charity with no official union recognition now. I'm still a union member but at least I get treated like a human being. No one could tempt me back to teaching.

ravenAK Mon 24-Mar-14 18:39:00

was Chloe really Mrs G then?

mrz or feenie - please PM me the Goveposters, I've probably been horrid to her on here & I wouldn't be if I'd known she had to live with Slithy...

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 19:05:49

I know someone who did a management consultancy role with a statutory authority and was paid £25K, would be slightly more now. She had a first class degree from Oxbridge, plus a specialist MA and several years' high quality experience. I'd guess 5 or 6 weeks' holiday.

My qualifications are similar to these as are my husband's. In most cases if you earn 25K after several years experience with a first class Oxbridge degree; that is your choice. I used to earn a six figure salary but then chose to drop that in order to have 13 weeks off. Again that is a choice I have made.

I don't think teacher's wages are awful, especially when the holidays are taken into consideration. However I was only willing to take the huge paycut to be a teacher because my husband was the main earner. I work with quite few female teachers who treat their teaching wage as a top up wage rather than the main wage. I do think that if we are going to attract the top graduates who might be attracted to more lucrative careers we may have to pay more.

I really like being in a classroom, I am quite good at it but I did not want to settle for the average classroom teacher's wage and therefore quite quickly aimed to get promoted to a senior level which meant less time in the classroom but more money. I think it should be possible to earn a decent wage and stay in the classroom, I know some of the changes to pay and conditions are supposed to make this possible: we will see of that happens.

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 19:09:02

- it's much harder to become a doctor or barrister (can't say about bankers) than a teacher

You mean it takes longer to qualify. Of course it does. However, we should be trying to recruit people who are capable of these things to the profession because they are bright but passionate about teaching.

I think it is harder to become a doctor than a teacher, I am not sure about barrister. I would guess that if you take the average qualifications of a new doctor and a new teacher, the doctors will have better GCSEs and A Levels. I think this is becoming more pronounced, I rarely talk to a super bright student who wants to become a teacher. Most of the very bright students I teach want to go into medicine, law or something very specialised - teaching tends to be the aim for well behaved B grade students,

mammadiggingdeep Mon 24-Mar-14 19:12:47

A newly qualified teacher in outer London starts on a salary if 25k, a tube driver starts on 46k.

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 19:17:40

Most teachers if they wanted to could earn 46k as tube driver in London. They choose not to. It would take 46k to convince me to be a tube driver because I could not think if a duller job. They also don't see daylight, deal with suicides on the track and work unsocial hours. They also only get fewer holidays.

nkf Mon 24-Mar-14 19:21:09

Good lord. Of all the daft posts I've read on MN - and there have been some doozies - this is the daftest. And The Sun backing it. Well, I never.

TheFallenMadonna Mon 24-Mar-14 19:32:40

It is definitely harder to become a doctor than it is to become a teacher. The entrance requirements are not particularly exacting for teaching. However, keeping the requirements low and remunerating accordingly is not in the best interests of the profession and by extension the children we teach. That seems like an odd argument.

mammadiggingdeep Mon 24-Mar-14 19:46:20

Philosothy- that has to be the worst argument to justify teachers shite wages.

Jinsei Mon 24-Mar-14 19:52:52

I think this is becoming more pronounced, I rarely talk to a super bright student who wants to become a teacher. Most of the very bright students I teach want to go into medicine, law or something very specialised - teaching tends to be the aim for well behaved B grade students

I find this so sad. Years ago, I was one of those super bright kids and I did really want to be a teacher. However, my teachers at the time were obviously hugely disillusioned with the system and another Tory government and they talked me out of it - told me that I could do so much better. Now, I earn a whole lot more in a job that probably isn't half as stressful, so in a way, I guess they were right...but part of me still regrets that I didn't pursue that dream as I think it was what I would genuinely have enjoyed most.

I really think we ought to ensure that teacher pay and conditions are properly commensurate with the job that they do. What could be more important than educating the next generation?

stillenacht Mon 24-Mar-14 20:06:30

Jinsei I would agree with you but I notice a lot of B graders think they are too good for teaching hmm. The A graders don't want to be teachers indeed as they see how stressful it is but the B graders (not all) have delusions of grandeur thinking they are all going to be lawyers, doctors etc.

I was an A grader at school who became a teacher (As at A levels and across the board at GCSE)..... I wish I had listened to my teachers who tried to put me off in the 80shmm.

It's not all been bad but over the last 5/6 years it's got worse and worse and now it's intolerable.

TheFallenMadonna Mon 24-Mar-14 20:10:04

I didn't want to be a teacher when I was still at school. The only school students I know who want to be teachers want to be PE teachers! I am slogging away with them to get the required grade in Maths and Science. They are not B grade students even...

I am hoping some of the brighter ones might, like me, see the light later on!

stillenacht Mon 24-Mar-14 20:13:29

Yup I have heard kids talking about being PE teachers and psychology teachers. Out of all my A level musicians (18 of them in recent years) one has gone into teacher training.

mammadiggingdeep Mon 24-Mar-14 20:24:33

It's not just getting good students into teacher training, keeping them in the profession is hard. A third of NQTs leave in the first 3 or 4 years of teaching. That's shocking.

I'm 36. I've taught since I was 21. I did a 4 year education degree. It's all I wanted from the she of 12.

My retirement age is 68.7!!!!! The thought of teaching til then fills me with dismay. I love the children, Ioce way hung them discover and learn. I love lauding with families and parents and the wider community. I just hate the feeling if being so overloaded with work, targets, data and hoop jumping that the things I hold dear about my job go out the window.

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 20:24:40

TheFallenMadonnaMon 24-Mar-14 19:32:40

It is definitely harder to become a doctor than it is to become a teacher. The entrance requirements are not particularly exacting for teaching. However, keeping the requirements low and remunerating accordingly is not in the best interests of the profession and by extension the children we teach. That seems like an odd argument

It is not my argument for how things should be, rather how things are. I would like to see higher entrance requirements and as a reflection of that higher pay.

mammadiggingdeep Mon 24-Mar-14 20:25:02

* I love watching them discover and learn...

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 20:27:37

mammadiggingdeepMon 24-Mar-14 19:46:20Philosothy- that has to be the worst argument to justify teachers shite wages.

I am not sure what you are referring to, I just thought that the comparison to tube drivers was an odd one because in many ways I think it is a deeply unnatractive job and therefore you need to pay the wages to get the workers. I suspect it is not a typical average wage for the level of qualifactions required.

I am a teacher, I would love to have earned more money. I would have quite liked to have remained in the classroom but I did not want to earn a maximum of circa �38K.

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 20:32:13

I find this so sad. Years ago, I was one of those super bright kids and I did really want to be a teacher.

I was superbright and wanted to be a teacher, however for me it was a definite social move upwards. Dad was a part time drug dealer, prison inmate and full time wife and child beater. Mum was a part time hooker and shoplifter who did the odd bit of bar work. I assumed a teacher's wage was a fortune, because in comparison to me they were rich.

However when I got to university I was given more useful careers advice and worked out that I could earn a lot of money if I chose another career. I could also travel - which I had never been able to do. It was only when I wanted more time with the children that I was willing to take the paycut to go into teaching.

If I had come from a more affluent and informed background I may never have considered teaching at all, until I wanted to have a more family friendly career.

teacherwith2kids Mon 24-Mar-14 20:34:09

It is probably hard to track all those who 'eventually' go into teaching, though.

I am an 'A grader' - As in every exam at all levels, first class degree and PhD from Oxbridge - but my 'apparent' destination as far as school, university etc would have been concerned was academic research followed by highly-regarded management trainee post in a large company.

My metamorphosis into primary school teacher 20-odd years on would probably come as as much of a surprise to my erstwhile teachers / university tutors as it did to me!

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 20:38:58

That is a fair point teacher, I was a late entrant and will probably be an early finisher too! I am not planning to do any work of any kind past 60 at the latest, never mind teaching!

mammadiggingdeep Mon 24-Mar-14 20:40:45

My comparison was to show the value our society puts in those two jobs.

Educating the next generation c

mammadiggingdeep Mon 24-Mar-14 20:42:15

Compared to driving a tube train.

Yes it's a duller job but that's not worthy of more money surely?? Picking litter up is dull, doesn't pay 46k though!

mammadiggingdeep Mon 24-Mar-14 20:43:14

You might have to work past 60 if they don't leave our pensions alone. That's why I'll be striking and matching with pride.

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 20:49:59

As I said I would like to see higher entrance requirements and higher pay.

I don't know much about tube drivers tbh, I suspect their pay is an anomaly tbh.

Wages are not just about the value we place on the job but the amount that people are willing to work for. Clearly enough people are willing to become teachers for that level of pay, combined with the pensions, holidays and sense of personal achievement it appears attractive. The problem comes with then keeping those teachers. I suspect that the starting pay is about right, lots of "high paid" professions start on a similar amount - but teaching then stops rising unless you go into management.

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 20:51:34

I have striked before and if I was not on maternity leave I would be proudly striking again. I will not be working at 60 but would be proudly striking to achieve that for others.

TheFallenMadonna Mon 24-Mar-14 20:55:11

People don't get paid according to the worthiness of their profession.

The trouble with slack entry requirements for teaching is that even though there is a problem with retention, there are regular new entrants. And although there are permanent issues with finding well qualified Maths and Physics (and now increasingly Computing) specialists, there are plenty of PE teachers (for example) who offer Maths as a second subject who plug gaps in the timetable and lower the quality of KS3 Maths teaching to the detriment of achievement at KS4 and beyond, and poor specialist teachers who move constantly from school to school to avoid capability, who are again required to fill the gaps, because you can't have classes with no teacher, and you can't not have Maths classes!

I worked in what was a significantly underachieving department, and one of the key factors in turning it around was recruiting well qualified staff. And by well qualified, I mean academically. Clever people with good degrees. Good teachers too, of course!

TallulahMcFey Mon 24-Mar-14 20:59:10

You do what you feel right. What I'll be doing on the other hand is making the most of the day, and having my youngest at nursery, and taking my daughter to see the new Muppet movie.

clam Mon 24-Mar-14 21:04:06

Slack entry requirements? What do you understand the requirements to be?

TheFallenMadonna Mon 24-Mar-14 21:08:35

C grade GCSEs in English, Maths (and Science for some areas) and a degree. I don't think there's a class requirement, although there may be for some bursaries.

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 21:11:03

From DofE website

Qualifications

Grades needed

A GCSE (or standard equivalent) in English Grade C

A GCSE (or standard equivalent) in mathematics Grade C

A GCSE (or standard equivalent) in a science subject if you want to teach primary or key stages 2/3 Grade C

A UK first degree (or equivalent qualification) if you want to take a postgraduate teacher training course Pass

I think these are quite slack qualifications to be honest, as someone who interviews and recruits staff we would not take someone with Grade Cs in Maths and English and a 3rd class degree. I am shocked that other schools might.

TheFallenMadonna Mon 24-Mar-14 21:11:17

For entry to a programme leading to QTS that is. For UQTs, all bets are off. Although I work with some excellent and very well qualified UQTs.

clam Mon 24-Mar-14 21:12:13

No mention of A' levels?

TheFallenMadonna Mon 24-Mar-14 21:14:39

What do you understand the entry requirements to be?

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 21:16:18

No clam, although I guess they are assuming you have them if you have a degree. It surprised me that they were not there. You would expect a linked A level to your chosen teaching subject as well as a degree.

TheFallenMadonna Mon 24-Mar-14 21:18:29

You are lucky if you have a field of candidates from which to select Philoslothy. Recruiting highly qualified staff in shortage subjects to challenging schools is increasingly difficult. I have experienced significant understaffing because I am a picky recruiter. and that affects students' education as well...

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 21:26:50

I teach in a popular school that teachers want to work in, I have spent time in schools that struggle to get staff and know that you can't always be choosy. We have recently appointed new phsyics and maths teachers and still had quite a good field. The last two permanent positions we advertised (Head of Year/House) and history teacher both attracted in excess of 50 applicants.

teacherwith2kids Mon 24-Mar-14 21:32:45

What are the entry requirements for the BEd?

I think the 'actual', as opposed to the 'minimum' requirements vary quite a lot depending on the state of the economy. When recruitment to teaching is easy - economic downturn - the training institutions can be more choosy. In upturns, when many graduates / potential BEd students will turn to less 'safe', but perhaps more glamourous alternatives, entry standards will be lower.

TheFallenMadonna Mon 24-Mar-14 21:34:05

It's like a positive feedback loop. Very hard to break the cycle. You are in a fortunate position!

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Mon 24-Mar-14 21:43:31

Couldn't say what they are now but the entry requirements in the late 90s for the primary science BEd were C in Maths, English and Science at GCSE.

My UCAS offers were mainly the points equivalent of CDE or DDD at A-level with two of those having to be in science subjects. They do interview applicants though so it's possible that the actual offer might depend on how much they want the applicant.

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 21:51:59

I am in a fortunate position and I have put myself there deliberately. I am not noble or hardworking enough to work in a tough school. I suspect I don't have the skills either. In a good school I am a good teacher, push me any more and I would crack or give up. That is something else I would like to see addressed in the pay system, higher pay for those teachers working in the tougher schools.

It is madness that I am paid the same amount of money as somone in a tough inner city school.

It is a bit of a vicious cycle - we want to employ high quality teachers but find it hard to attract them because our school is trying to turn itself around. It is a nightmare. In my previous schools we had loads of high quality applicants for every job.

Georgina1975 Mon 24-Mar-14 22:09:22

I have sat here for about 20 minutes with total writers block about The Sun headline. It is REALLY bugging me. Any offers?

Photo: "angry" mum(s) with folded arms and sad looking kids? Or perhaps foxy mum on bed with LEA invoice between teeth? No...they will definitely need sad looking kids in there...hmmm.

<goes off to ponder the possibilities>

p.s. Don't tell The Sun that I stand behind our teachers 100% - fingers on lips now.

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 22:10:56

But if it paid more you would get some of those high quality applicants.

I am responsible for behaviour and the pastoral teams. I see our most challenging students.

Today I dealt with someone who ran down a corridor and someone who sang a rude song during his cookery lesson.

You can cope in my school by being a good teacher who is prepared to mark a lot of work. It is the schools who need the strongest teachers who often have to settle for the weakest candidates.

BoffinMum Mon 24-Mar-14 22:26:02

Philo, I doubt you'd get onto a PGCE course if you only had a 3rd. It's much more competitive than in the 1990s. Many incoming teachers have 2:1s, and it's the norm to study for a master's early on in your career. Later on some people do professional taught doctorates (EdDs).

Philoslothy Mon 24-Mar-14 22:55:57

I have taught with at least one teacher that I know of with a 3rd, she is not in her late thirties so I assume she qualified in the late 90s. If I knew of one there must have been others. I do hope it has become more competitive. We rarely get applications from anyone with a result below a 2:2. I think the bar should be set at a 2:1 personally.

Yes I agree, but we can't pay more, hence the problem. I also find that I have to work twice as hard at this school compared to my last one, due to the situation of the school and the pressure everyone is under. This is what I was saying up thread - some of the students with the most challenging backgrounds are never going to make two sub levels of progress a year - why would anyone choose to teach them if that is how we will be judged?

I think if our most challenging students were those that ran down the corridor or sang rude songs we'd definitely be onto a winner!

Have to say I disagree about the degree thing - some of the best teachers I know have 2:2 or 3rds. Obviously not all, there are some amazing ones with higher degrees too. More the problem is non-specialists teaching our subject (maths) either to make up timetable gaps, or because recruiting is a problem.

chicaguapa Tue 25-Mar-14 06:52:04

I thought the government had changed it to a minimum 2:1 'to raise standards'?

Because when it happened, we commented that DH was lucky he'd applied a year earlier as he has a 2:2 in Chemistry & Physics from Bristol.

He is also an outstanding teacher. So it's education's gain that he got in.

mammadiggingdeep Tue 25-Mar-14 10:46:55

I've taught with teachers with all classes of degrees and believe me it makes no difference to their teaching ability. I'm teaching at the moment with an NQT, she has a 1st and is studying for an mEd at the mo. she knows all the theory but her class lacks routine, consistency and her planning is verging on inadequate. This is in primary though, so perhaps that makes a difference.

Dinosaursareextinct Tue 25-Mar-14 14:57:39

I don't think they should exclude 2.2s - that will lose too much talent. I know someone who got a 3rd - but is extremely bright and dedicated and is now teaching at uni. It has been a hard struggle for her just due to her degree classification. I think she was in love and took her eye off the ball!

clam Tue 25-Mar-14 17:33:01

Dh lectures in teacher training and their requirements for the B.Ed (apart from the English, Maths and Science at GCSE) are 300 UCAS points (which equates to 3Bs at A level, at least one of which must be a Nat Curric subject) and a pass in the Professional Skills Test in English and Maths.
For PGCE, a 2:1 is pretty standard, but you wouldn't get a bursary with anything lower.

Dinosaursareextinct Wed 26-Mar-14 11:59:34

Funny how the teachers at our primary school never strike. It also never shuts due to bad weather. The Head has a grip of steel over the staff I think.

There is a school near me which I suspect deliberately does not employ NUT teachers.

Hulababy Wed 26-Mar-14 12:41:27

Junior school next door to my school has OFSTED in today and tomorrow. Half their teachers are striking today. Not sure if that would be good or not, thinking latter tbh.

rollonthesummer Wed 26-Mar-14 12:44:22

Junior school next door to my school has OFSTED in today and tomorrow. Half their teachers are striking today. Not sure if that would be good or not, thinking latter tbh.

I hope the school isn't penalised for the strike. Will you feedback on here and let us know if the strike is mentioned in the Ofsted report when it comes out? I'd be really interested to know.

Feenie Wed 26-Mar-14 13:33:54

There is a school near me which I suspect deliberately does not employ NUT teachers.

There is no way they could possibly find out before employing them.

Philoslothy Wed 26-Mar-14 13:49:10

You don't know what union teachers are in when you employ them.

A school where nobody striked would worry me, suggests an over controlling head, a climate of fear and rather weak teachers.

At our school the NUT staff who are striking tend to be the passionate, successful teachers I want teaching my own children. Overall this is not the case the NUT teachers who are not striking.

As others have said, there is no way a school would know what Union you are a member of. For the record, after 13 years I changed unions this year to join the NUT after getting so pissed off at all the meddling in education and disruption for our students and to us as teachers trying to support them.

BreconBeBuggered Wed 26-Mar-14 15:24:56

I'm not sure how heavy the MN demographic is on Sun readers, but was there any sign of this bullshit story actually appearing in the end?

That is a relief (that union status is unknown). But the school is never closed. I looked around it and sent my child somewhere else.

Philoslothy Wed 26-Mar-14 16:27:13

Sometimes people switch unions according to the union presence in a school, this may be more pronounced in the primary sector. If I started working at a school and everyone else was in the NASUWT I might switch . Although they should have striked last time.

Hulababy Wed 26-Mar-14 20:11:38

rollonthesummer Will def try to rememeber too; added thread to watch to remind myself.

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