Has this school trip broke any regulations/laws?

(544 Posts)
emma16 Sun 17-Nov-13 08:31:05

I would appreciate some help here please, my 5 year old daughter went on a trip with 2 other classes from her school on Friday to a wood which I was initially concerned about as we go there ourselves on a Sunday etc for walks & have never seen any facilities there.
I raised my concerns with her teacher the week before they were due to go, to which she hardly knew anything of the trip & when i arrived at home time another teacher i know told me that she'd been there & there were facilities, and 'as if' they'd take 3 classes of kids somewhere where there wasnt!
I wasn't pretty hot about this trip seeing as they've waited until the middle of November to do it, and as any genuinely concerned parent, I was worried about how cold my daughter would be seeing as they were leaving just after 9am & not returning to school until 3.15pm.

Off she went anyway, but when my husband picked her up from the woods car park the first thing she said to him was 'im so thirst daddy & my head really hurts'. He brought her home & we found out that they had not taken their water bottle's with them & she'd had nothing to drink whatsoever all day, despite being active for 5 hours walking & doing activities.
We also found out that there were no toilets provided & her & 3 of her friends were taken by some assistant she doesn't know to wee behind a tree out in a public wood!!!
She also told us, when questioned by us, they never went in any buildings & were outside all day. They'd sat on little stools under a sheet to eat their pack lunchs.

Now some of you on here will think i'm over reacting no doubt & appreciate it if all you want to say is a snide comment about my over bearing parenting, but, in my opinion i feel they have done wrong.
I have made several enquiries with other people & as far as they know, there are no facilities whatsoever up at this wood, which my husband & I are going to visit this morning to find the country ranger & ask him himself.

If there aren't this means that no risk assessment could have been carried out, those teachers lied to my face after voicing my concerns, they let my daughter go without any fluids for over 5 hours despite being active & came home ill & with a headache, they let some stranger to her pull her pants down in a public wood to wee, and they gave them no form of shelter/heating for even a short period of time just to warm them up before going back out again.
Is any of this ok, does anyone with some knowledge actually know? From a parents point of view there's all sorts wrong with it. If there were facilities why did they choose not to use them?

ChippingInLovesAutumn Sun 17-Nov-13 08:41:20

It's November - not January in the snow, if she had a coat she would have been fine.

Kids don't need to be inside - outside is fine.

I don't believe they didn't have a drink all day.

Your DD is 5 - I'm sure she can pull her own pants down. What's more, I'm sure if she had an accident at school you would expect the same person to help her & be the first to complain if they didn't. Have you never had a wee in the woods? What would you do when you take her there?

You are massively over-reacting.

Twirlychair Sun 17-Nov-13 08:43:44

Oh dear it sounds like your dd didn't enjoy it very much.

Didn't she have a packed lunch with her? To be honest the out all day wouldn't bother me as long as they were wrapped up, and my dd at that age would have loved to pee on her feet in the woods. As long as the assistant is checked etc I don't see that as an issue.

But I'm a fairly lax parent who doesn't get het up about things and I can feel from your post that you are bothered about it, so maybe you should go and talk to the teacher in the morning to get things straight? Sometimes kids aren't reliable in what takes they bring home (not suggesting your dd is lying but sometimes kids version of what happened isn't the full picture)

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

Rooners Sun 17-Nov-13 08:45:00

I would feel the same as you. I would monitor it and see how the school behaves in other respects and if you feel they are not deserving of your trust, then perhaps consider another school.

I did this in similar circumstances and found the new school far better at looking after small children's needs.

Rooners Sun 17-Nov-13 08:46:07

Some schools do let children go all day without a drink. It may be more common than you would think sadly. 'Not enough staff' is no excuse.

Lonecatwithkitten Sun 17-Nov-13 08:47:14

I would divide it into pieces.
I am afraid having a child who gets terrible migraines with vomiting I am never surprised about how little importance some teachers attach to drinking - some are brilliant. This I would approach with a I was a bit concerned X came home with thumping headache maybe she needs to be reminded to drink more.
Outside in November with a coat - fine with me as is having a wee in the woods.

I wouldnt be happy about the lack of toilet facilities. DS would happily wee against a tree but dd has never done the toilet outdoors so would have been unhappy at no toilet.

vestandknickers Sun 17-Nov-13 08:49:05

I definitely don't think its a problem to be out all day. It's great in fact and something schools should do more of. I also wouldn't have a problem with any of my children going to the toilet behind a tree. If they sat down for a packed lunch surely they had a drink then? I'm afraid I agree with others who say you are over reacting.

WallyBantersJunkBox Sun 17-Nov-13 08:49:50

Are you sure your child didn't forget her water bottle and was perhaps too afraid to tell you?

It just seems strange that they would remember lunch, stools and sheeting, but forget water or water bottles.

If you knew she was going on this trip, and you had experienced this place before, and knew what to expect did you ensure she was dressed appropriately for the weather?

I don't understand the issue about the toilet either, sorry.

Pooka Sun 17-Nov-13 08:49:51

Sounds like forest school to me. The kids at our school do a half term stint of forest school once a week, with the year groups rotating. Dd loves it.

The should have been a risk assessment.

Have the school confirmed that there was a risk assessment?

The assistant wasn't a stranger grabbed off the site I assume, but a school employee? So would be CRB checked?

I'm surprised that they didn't have access to drinks. Did they not have a drink in or with their packed lunch?

The cold would not be an issue for me. If the kids were dressed appropriately then going inside to warm up wouldn't be necessary in my opinion.

Did your sister write a post about this on Thursday night? I thnk she did. I haven't looked for that thread, but she I think said in her post that there were buildings on site that had loos. She said that you often go to the woods as a family.

Would you feel better or worse if the school 'broke regulations'? confused

It just sounds like you don't like the whole idea of this particular trip and are looking for way to hold the school responsible.

Kids should be playing outside more. In all weathers.
Facilities - well, I'd rather wee in a the wood than in some poorly kept park toilets tbh.
Eating outside - great IMO.

I think you need to speak to your DD's teacher or head of year to find out what their general take on outings etc is. Maybe this school is not the school for you/your DD?

MadeOfStarDust Sun 17-Nov-13 08:51:22

Go complain to the school - if you don't NOTHING will change.....

my youngest went on a watersports activity day a couple of years ago with school.. they did not let them change into the (provided by the centre) wetsuits for the first activity - as it was "just sailing" -

they got soaked through and ended up in wet clothes - in a hailstorm in May.... which they stayed in for the other 4 hours!!! my DD and a boy in the same group ended up being treated in hospital for hypothermia...

We heard that something similar had happened the previous year - though luckily the weather had been better

I complained - to the school, the centre, the LEA and the local press - things changed.....

Chocotrekkie Sun 17-Nov-13 08:51:30

Why didn't they have a drink in their lunchbox ? Doesn't she have a warm coat and hat/scarf/gloves.

Mine age 5 would have loved a trip like this - but they would have gone with loads of layers and probably overheated

bakingaddict Sun 17-Nov-13 08:51:43

Whenever my DS goes on a school trip a letter is sent to say a packed lunch must be brought. The water bottle is part of the packed lunch as they are not allowed fruit drinks. How did she have no water bottle? Was it forgotten by you or the school?

Chopchopbusybusy Sun 17-Nov-13 08:53:01

Did she have a drink in her packed lunch?

FunkyBoldRibena Sun 17-Nov-13 08:53:31

Wasn't there a drink in her packed lunch?

The rest of it...She spent a day in the woods. Nothing bad happened and you were angling for something to complain about from the get go.

She needs to know that it is ok to pee in the words...it's only a major thing if you make it one.

FunkyBoldRibena Sun 17-Nov-13 08:54:00

Pee in the woods...not words...grrrrr

Rooners Sun 17-Nov-13 08:54:39

It sounds like they have water bottles at school but the school didn't bring them on the trip - can you clarify please OP?

Is this the school trip that you didn't want your dd to go on anyway? You were told ywbu for all the issues you've named above.

Isthatwhatdemonsdo Sun 17-Nov-13 08:55:02

A school would carry out a risk assessment first before any trip. Going to talk to the park ranger is a bit over the top. Take your concerns to the teacher.

MadeOfStarDust Sun 17-Nov-13 08:55:55

Some schools do not allow "drinks" in their packed lunch - they have their water bottle to last them the day - topped up if necessary... not a separate drink in their lunchbox.

Rooners Sun 17-Nov-13 08:56:31

Also I agree sometimes children give a different version of events that can sound very alarming but may not be completely accurate!

Shente Sun 17-Nov-13 08:56:51

Ask to see the risk assessment for the trip and check that things were done in accordance with it. What does ITT say about toileting etc. If the plan was always for whaat did happen to happen ask why it was represented to you differently. I would not be happy if I had been given answers regarding concerns which turned out to be wrong although I probably wouldn't have objected to what happened in general terms.

SmileAndPeopleSmileWithYou Sun 17-Nov-13 08:56:56

We wouldn't plan an all day trip outside for reception/y1 at this time of year. However I think they would be fine.
If you wrapped her up she would be warm enough.

You said they ate lunch, so did she not have a drink with that? Assuming she did she would have only gone without fluids for a couple of hours. Again fine.

TA's don't have to know each child completely before supervising a toilet trip. If they work at the school I'd assume they were fine.

The school would have broken the law if they didn't do a risk assessment, but I'm not sure why you think they didn't? They can still complete one if there are no facilities.

emma16 Sun 17-Nov-13 08:57:38

ChippingInLovesAutumn-Your reply is exactly what i was talking about & why i very rarely post on this website, a website which i thought was parents helping each other & being kind :-/
I know its not January but unfortunately for you, you don't know my daughter unlike myself. She gets cold very quickly, yes she was wrapped up warm believe me but even after 30 minutes when we go swimming her lips are blue & she's shivering. When we go for walks we're her parents & we know how to keep her active & warm, 3 classes are slightly different & I was worried about a lot of standing or ambling around.
No she didn't have a drink, she came in our kitchen & literally glugged a full pint glass of water down she was that desperate & yes i wee'd in the woods when i was little but it was with my parents that were there who i trusted & didn't expose my bare naked foo to someone i didn't know.

Thank you Twirlychair for your advice, i think i am going to speak to the teachers tomorrow. I didn't have a problem with her being there all day at all, when i believed they had proper facilities to use like a toilet & somewhere to go to sit & eat their pack lunch & get a bit of warmth in their bones for a while.
What i'm annoyed about is I feel i've been lied to. I don't like the thought of some stranger seeing my daughters bare naked bum in a public place, if this was what was going to happen then i should have been asked before hand. My daughter is very precious to us, nothing wrong with that & better than being a parent that isn't really bothered about what happens to their child when out of their care! Thanks for the honest but well worded response smile

Why are you planning on talking to the park ranger?
I am genuinely puzzled - are you trying to 'catch the school out' at a 'lie' or something??

It really sounds like your relationship with the school is pretty damaged...
I was not aware of previous threads about this btw.

todaysdate Sun 17-Nov-13 09:01:04

I think that there may be an issue if a child needed a poo.
I'm sick and tired of dog poo and find human poo and tissue in the woods revolting.

And how exactly did they wash their hands before eating?

I think the kids should be out and about, most definitely. But I wonder if the trip should have been a half day trip.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 09:01:23

"If there aren't this means that no risk assessment could have been carried out"
Why does it mean this? hmm
Have you seriously got nothing better to do on your Sunday morning than hunt down a ranger to quiz him on what may or may not have gone on a trip last week?

vestandknickers Sun 17-Nov-13 09:03:00

TAs have seen bare bums before. It is part of their job and children aren't bothered unless you get all fussy about it and make it an issue for them. If your daughter really gets cold so easily then you should have raised this with the teachers and provided a doctors letter. It really isn't that cold at the moment and unless your daughter has some medical condition that makes her particulalry vulnerable to the cold, the teachers would have no reason to think she couldn't cope with being outside for a day. The drink thing sounds a bit confused. Maybe your DD forgot and was too afraid to tell or maybe she's got it a bit wrong when she's told you. Five year olds are not the most reliable! I really think you ened to let this go.

Twirlychair Sun 17-Nov-13 09:03:26

You should have made sure she was wrapped up warm. My dd still wears a ski suit when it's really cold and she's roasted when the rest of us are freezing.

Didn't she have a drink in her packed lunch? Mine always do when they go on a trip like that they've to bring all chuckable stuff in a plastic bag and the rubbish is disposed of when they go home.

You're totally over reacting about the exposing her bare naked foo. Seriously? She pulled her pants down and peed in the woods. The same assistant would have to help her in school if she had a poonami or a flood and needed changed. Why is it an issue because it's outside?

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 09:03:36

Why did you not give her a drink in her packed lunch?

ICameOnTheJitney Sun 17-Nov-13 09:04:00

OP you have to face facts....you DO come across as over anxious...not to mention silly. Why on earth did you not pack a drink in her packed lunch? Kids of this age regularly spend whole days outdoors....it's GOOD for them and most enjoy it.

Is it possible your DD has picked up on your general anxiety? It sounds like you quizzed her too much anyway.

dawntigga Sun 17-Nov-13 09:05:14

Dear goddess, you were told ywbu on your last thread and again here. The majority opinion is you were being unreasonable then and now. If you really want people to just agree with you there are other places that will do that.

WandersOffToDoOtherStuffTiggaxx

Again, did she not have a drink in her packed lunch?

Because if there was a drink in her lunch and they sat down to eat lunch it is a bit odd that she didnt drink anything all day.

iwantanafternoonnap Sun 17-Nov-13 09:06:31

The being outside all day fine and I am sure they were running about keeping warm.

The toilets situation fine for DS but seeing as he sometimes needs a poo not so fine there was no access to toilets. We go camping/walking quite a lot and so he is used to wee'ing up against trees etc but some kids aren't and would really not have liked to wee in front of their friends like.

The lack of water I really wouldn't be happy about and that needs to get checked out. Used to be in the forces and when in training, regardless of what it was, we had to have water bottles and thats as adults. No excuse for teachers not to check that before leaving.

I'm a pretty lax parent and not fussed by DS being outside, getting wet etc but this trip doesn't sound good. Did your daughter have a good time though?

how did they wipe bottoms and wash hands if there were no facilities. I wouldnt have been happy either.

Pooka Sun 17-Nov-13 09:07:09

So if the "stranger" needed to help your dd in a school loo setting would you feel the same as in this case, in the woods?

This is not a strange dog walker co-opted in for the job.

It's a CRB checked school employee. The fact that the peeing was done in the woods rather than in the school loo is irrelevant surely?

I suspect that when you ask the school there may be clarifications that would make sense. For example, I would suspect tht the impromptu pee happened as it did because they were at that time some distance from the site loos, but that if the dcs had needed a pee when they were near the site loos, they would have been used instead.

I expect the school will be able to clarify the drinks situation too. You haven't said whether the children had drinks in their packed lunches.

The going inside to warm their bones is not really necessary. Harder on the system to be cold/warm up and then get cold again. They should be dressed cosily and active. You said in your op that the problem with the lack of drink was exacerbated by the children being active, walking and doing activities for 5 hours so it sounds like they were moving around a lot, which would help keep them warm. It wasn't that cold on Friday.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 09:07:49

"My daughter is very precious to us" Do you think ours aren't then, because we think you might be over-reacting a tad?

ICameOnTheJitney Sun 17-Nov-13 09:07:49

Yes the only real issue here is the lack of toilets....it's not ideal or sensible. But everything else...nothing to worry about.

Twirlychair Sun 17-Nov-13 09:07:52

Did you get a consent form for the trip to sign before they went?

emma16 Sun 17-Nov-13 09:08:19

I haven't an issue with her being outside all day doing activities, yeah i was a little concerned about it being too cold to be out all day i admit but i did wrap her up warm, tights, trousers over the top, welly socks, thermal long sleeve top, vest, jumper & waterproof winter coat etc..and to be honest it made a change to her being stuck in a stuffy classroom where they never open a window!
Don't get me wrong my husband & I are big fan's of the kids being outside,they've grown up being took on walks all over by us, but yes i was worried about her being out all day as it wasn't the warmest day.

The letter said nothing about providing a different drink in her pack lunch, she took her water bottle that she takes every day to school which i assumed would be going along with them all as every child took theirs, but according to her they weren't allowed a drink before as 'there isn't any time we need to get on the bus' and they weren't taken to the site either. If i'd known this i would have provided a smaller bottle or capri sun of some sorts to go in her pack lunch.

Ok ok i maybe slightly over reacting but like i said in my last post, it's more because i feel like i've been lied to when i voiced my concerns initially. Had they have said no there are no facilities, yes they'll be peeing behind a tree, yes they'll be sat outside under a sheet to eat their pack lunch, then id have known & this wouldn't be an issue. It's the fact they said there were toilets, there was somewhere indoors for them to eat etc, and now looks like they just lied to shut me up.
And obviously nobody on here has an issue with some stranger seeing their little girls bare naked foo!! I know i have lol!

Lottiedoubtie Sun 17-Nov-13 09:09:12

I am shock at your reaction to the weeing in the woods thing... Three classes of five year olds? So 90 children? So easily 120 wees during the day, they MUST have had a system for sorting out the toileting.

I see no issue with a quick wee behind a tree for a five year old. And are you suggesting the teaching assistant got something innapropriate out of it? because if you are call the police not us. If not, I'm baffled as to what the issue is.

Twirlychair Sun 17-Nov-13 09:10:46

It wasn't some stranger. It was a fully crb checked assistant from the school.

I'll bet my last pound the peeing up a tree happened because she needed a pee far from the loos. Would you rather she had been allowed to wet herself?

Packed lunch for a trip always includes a drink, surely? If they're going away all day you'd know they need a drink to take with them?

My sympathy is evaporating I'm afraid.

Mckayz Sun 17-Nov-13 09:12:45

Your 'sister' posted about this the other day and you were told then that you were being overly precious. I do not see the need for this thread at all.

Wrap your daughter up warm or move to a hot country.

And I very much doubt any strangers saw your daughters naked foo.

Bloody hate the word foo.

vestandknickers Sun 17-Nov-13 09:14:06

No, it isn't a problem for a five year old to be out all day in November.

Yes, you should have put a drink in her lunchbox.

No, it is not a problem for a CRB check adult to help a child to go to the toilet. Whether that is inside or outside is not relevant.

Yes you are massively over reacting.

Hope that helps!

FannyFifer Sun 17-Nov-13 09:14:18

But if she was going on a school trip why would the water bottle be taken out her bag and left in class in first place?
DS has a water bottle for in class but also has a drink in his packed lunch, that's the norm.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 09:14:54

All the children in my school bring water bottles to school, which are kept by the sink in the classroom. However, those who bring packed lunches also bring a separate drink for their lunch. You made an assumption there that is not really the school's fault.

"i feel like i've been lied to" It may not have been a lie. There may have been loos but, as someone has just suggested, a distance away from where they were at the time, and a quick wee behind a tree was used in "emergencies."

IHadADreamThatWasNotAllADream Sun 17-Nov-13 09:15:20

I see why your attitude is getting you a bit of a kicking, and you're being generally precious about being outside in the fresh autumn air and TAs seeing bare bottoms.

However I do think that taking a bunch of 5 year olds to a place with no toilets for the day is an error - did they bring a shovel to bury any poo? Were there any hand washing facilities? Some children simply won't go behind a bush, and will end up wetting themselves.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Sun 17-Nov-13 09:15:21

Oh dear me.

So the drink thing wasnt the school refusing to let them drink, it was you not providing a drink?

The being outside all day thing is a good thing for children and you sound like you wrapped her up very well, do no drama there.

Weeing outside- ok not ideal. But not the end of the world to be fair.

Twirlychair Sun 17-Nov-13 09:17:50

My dd used to have a bottle for the classroom that sat by the sink, and a separate drink for her packed lunch. Isn't that what everyone has? She used to go to the dinner hall to eat her lunch, so the drink was left in the classroom and she had her drink from her packed lunch.

Pooka Sun 17-Nov-13 09:18:05

Our school teachers always take a flask with water in in case kids thirsty and don't have a drink with them. You should definitely ask the school for clarification on that point.

The outside pee - I'm sure the assistant wasnt looking! You weaken your argument when you talk about the assistant as a stranger. This isn't a stranger in the stranger danger sense. It wAs a crb checked employee of the school or parent helper (again, crb checked at our school). Not a random bloke off the street.

I expect there was somewhere inside for them to eat if it was raining or blowing a gale. But maybe they chose to eat outside to fully experience the camping/woods people vibe?

You're obviously concerned about aspects of the trip, so I'd definitely recommend you ask for clarification on the main points:

Risk assessment?
No drink
Peeing in woods (honestly, I would omit the stranger talk)

And wait and see whether the school can reassure you on those points.

FannyFifer Sun 17-Nov-13 09:18:41

Honestly this level of anxiety/obsession over a school trip is not reasonable, it's really not.

ICameOnTheJitney Sun 17-Nov-13 09:21:09

I thought the same Twirly OP had you considered that maybe DD needed a wee AFTER the group toilet visit and had to go behind a tree because the distance was too great?

cazzybabs Sun 17-Nov-13 09:21:33

Maybe there is a toilet but they were too far from it at that point she needed a wee.

If you are worried raise issues with the school and ask to see the RA. I would be amazed in todays culture schools would not do a proper RA.

At my school we do one and it is looked at by at least 2 others if it is a trip to somewhere new.

i feel like i've been lied to

Like I said, I think you will not be happy if remaining with this school.
And I bet they are not enjoying having you around either.

And do you really thing a TA who takes your DD or any other child for a wee behind a tree is in the least bit interested in her genitalia?? Really?
Weird. And unhealthy.
They are children. They have bodies. Like the rest of us.

Good grief <hides thread>

Pooka Sun 17-Nov-13 09:23:28

My dcs don't have a drink in their packed lunches. They hVe a wTer bottle in their classroom. They eat packed lunches in the dining room and can have water or milk from a central drinks table. So if I hadnt been forewarned I would not have provided them with a drink in their packed lunch.

I do as a matter of course now for school trips, but have dc in year 6 and year 3 so I know the form by now.

Your second post is right. We are a helpful website. So if you tell us where these woods are, doubtless some of us will know them and can reassure you about local facilities.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 09:32:41

On the letter home about the trip, there should have been a sentence detailing that you should send your child with a packed lunch (including a drink), and to wrap them up warmly (which it seems you did).

You seem determined to be cross about this.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 09:33:54

I'm confused as to why on earth on an active day trip putting a drink in the lunch box didn't occur to you. What on earth would have been the problem of shock horror aged ended up with two drinks confused

Think you need to get the facts first.

One last question, why did you consent to the trip. If she gets cold so easily even wrapped up and you were aware that there were many other children there so focus couldn't be on just your child why consent?

itscockyfoxagain Sun 17-Nov-13 09:35:27

No loos isn't nice but I actually doubt there were no facilities at all, in anycase I an sure we have all had a wee behind a tree.
My DS is now in year 3 every trip he has been on we have been asked to provide a packed lunch with a carton drink in a carrier bag. This was how it was 20 years ago and I was at school as well.
A few weeks ago I helped on a very similar trip with DS's class, it was cold there was torrential rain. The only children who were cold were those not dressed for the weather. Those in warm clothes with proper waterproof tops and bottoms over the top had a fantastic time.

teacher123 Sun 17-Nov-13 09:41:15

If you honestly think that the teachers are lying to you and haven't done appropriate risk assessments and you do not trust their TAs, then you should withdraw your child immediately from the school. Teachers ESPECIALLY of very young children are beyond careful with their planning and risk assessments for everything. I find it impossible to believe that a school would not have safeguarding in place for these eventualities. You need to make an appt with the head to outline your concerns. She/he will then reassure you and this should be enough. Either you trust the school or you don't.

nulgirl Sun 17-Nov-13 09:45:44

This kind of overprotective parenting is the reason why organising any of school trip must be a nightmare. It sounds like a great outdoor experience for the kids and I can't believe anyone would want to see a risk assessment for kids peeing in the woods.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 09:50:34

Did your daughter tell anyone her mummy hadn't put a drink in her lunch?

ICameOnTheJitney Sun 17-Nov-13 09:50:36

Pooka but wouldn't you thing "They are not at school with a table of drinks...so things are different" and provided a drink!?

Sparklingbrook Sun 17-Nov-13 09:50:56

This is very similar to a thread from last week.

emma16 Sun 17-Nov-13 09:52:35

The school policy is no drinks in pack lunches, they provide water jugs at the tables in school, as she had her water bottle as normal taken to school that day & there was nothing in the letter saying we need to provide a carton drink or whatever in their lunch box as they can't take all of the kids normal water bottle, i would have provided one obviously. I assumed as did every parent as no-one packed a drink in the lunch box's, that their water bottles were going with them.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 09:53:14

Sparkling I think it's the same one, although the mum herself posting, instead of the sister.

IamInvisible Sun 17-Nov-13 09:53:42

I would have packed an extra drink if my DC had gone on a trip like that, tbh. Common sense tells me that them being outside all day, running about means that they would need more than they usually would in a stuffy classroom.

The 'stranger' who saw your DD's foo would be the same person who would change her at school if she had an accident. I bet you wouldn't be moaning then!

Its all such a non-issue really. I bet the rest of the kids had a lovely time and that their parents agree with them.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 09:54:54

So there were 90 children in the woods without a drink between them!

IamInvisible Sun 17-Nov-13 09:54:55

So you've asked the other 119 parents if they packed a drink then?

IamInvisible Sun 17-Nov-13 09:55:48

Sorry 89 parents!blush

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 09:55:53

I find to very hard to believe that any school nowadays would take out 90 children for the whole day, refusing them access to toilets or water to drink.
Do go in and talk to them, by all means, and ask for clarification, but I would stay off the "I was lied to" tack, if I were you.

Sparklingbrook Sun 17-Nov-13 09:57:04

Oh right clam. I thought I was having deja vu.

Pooka Sun 17-Nov-13 09:59:34

Icameonthejitny - thankfully I didn't have to because the letter with first school trip spelt it out quite clearly - packed lunch including sealable drink in a disposable bag.

I'm think it would have occurred to me to provide a drink if it hadn't been spelt out, but I can't say for certain. The fact that the teachers at our school carry a flask of drink to forest school suggests that there are parents who don't provide a drink in the packed lunch.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 09:59:49

You need a letter telling you to pack a drink? Seriously?

schilke Sun 17-Nov-13 10:00:02

I would not be happy about the lack of facilities. If a child needed a poo, would she/he have been told to just do it in the woods?!

My girls have been on trips where they need to take a packed lunch and carton of drink in a throw away bag. I never understand this as surely it's easier to have a small rucksack that they carry all day, rather than a carrier bag which they have to hold until lunchtime!

AuntieStella Sun 17-Nov-13 10:06:44

I find it Literally Unbelievable that no drinks were taken on a trip lasting about 6 hours.

I think you probably do need to talk to the school to find out what actually happened.

Trips like these usually need parent volunteers to keep the ratios right. Did you volunteer?

BroodyTroody Sun 17-Nov-13 10:10:40

It definitely sounds like forest school, which gives children the chance to be children!

As already said, I would clarify the points that you are speculating on, and would try to avoid hoping into the school all guns blazing.

By the way, you posted on here asking for opinions, so getting annoyed with particular posters for just disagreeing with you is a bit unjustified.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 10:12:58

schilke I suppose it depends on the trip. On a museum visit, for instance, we keep the (named) carrier bags to one side in a basket/box and hand them out in the lunch room at the appropriate time. The whole lot then goes in the bin at the end. Rucksacks can get lost/left behind very easily.

"there are parents who don't provide a drink in the packed lunch." Yes, and there are MANY parents who send their child to school in mid-winter without coats. I spend the first 5 minutes of most playtimes standing at the door, saying "put your coat on/do it up/where IS it/WHY haven't you brought it?" and so on.

If anyone's interested, they all blame their parents! grin

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 10:13:51

"If a child needed a poo, would she/he have been told to just do it in the woods?!"

Like millions of bears before them! grin

pollypocket31 Sun 17-Nov-13 10:15:50

I would be concerned about being lied to, will be interested to hear their response.....don't take other posts to heart, hope you find answers smile

kaytola Sun 17-Nov-13 10:20:56

No toilets? For 90 kids plus staff? I don't believe it.

morningpaper Sun 17-Nov-13 10:23:35

I'm with the OP if there are genuinely no toilets. 90 children peeing and pooing in the woods and not washing their hands before eating?!?! Grim....

If this is the op's first school trip then it may well not have accured to her to pack drinks.

You are all meanies. smile

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 10:27:02

Hang on, who lied?
I've just re-read the OP and she said that the class teacher didn't seem to know much about the forthcoming trip (which is odd) and it was "another teacher she knew" i.e. not at the school concerned, who said "she'd been there & there were facilities, and 'as if' they'd take 3 classes of kids somewhere where there wasnt!"

That's not the school "lying."

Ememem84 Sun 17-Nov-13 10:28:14

I find it hard to believe that none of the kids were allowed a drink during the trip.

Also hard to believe that there were no toilets at all. Suspect your dd needed a wee after toilet stop.

I also think you're being a bit precious re the "stranger" helping her. Assume that this was a ta/someone known to the school/teacher and therefore crb'd? If same person was helping in school would you feel the same?

schilke Sun 17-Nov-13 10:43:27

Clam - true the teachers might put all carrier bags together and hand them out. Bears might use a wood to do their business, but there is no way dd2 would! She is fussy enough about public loos (just like I was/am) but no loo would floor her! I have never been able to wee in a wood. I can remember doing it once when I was little and my knickers got wet. After that experience I might be desperate, but it wouldn't come out blush

I really would not be happy about no loos. I would check with the school though. Your daughters's version might not be correct.

Judyandherdreamofhorses Sun 17-Nov-13 10:43:33

Find a new school. You're never going to like this one. Your daughter will be picking up on your attitude and it will affect her attitude to school.

I'm sure the school will be very willing to help her move to a different one.

youarewinning Sun 17-Nov-13 10:45:39

I actually think it's the attitude of always having water available that makes my DS think he cannot wait 1 minute for a drink! 6 hours isn't ideal but came about from your assumption OP - not from school refusing your DD a drink.

Facilities would have been a problem IMO - but because my DS has medical needs that require him to use a toilet - but then again I would expect the school to have thought about this when planning and RA the trip. He'll happily pee behind a bush and regulary does!

schilke Sun 17-Nov-13 10:48:40

Youarewinning - I am with you on the always having access to water. My children always assume I've got water on me. We take the dog for a walk and after 15 mins one will ask for a drink!

OP - come on, get a grip. So your child had a wee in the great outdoors. By the sounds of things that's an experience she needed and was unlikely to get with you. I think you're basically defining over-protective. It's unfortunate there was no drink but tbh I'm surprised you didn't send something with her. I always send extra drinks on trips. There's no long term harm done. Going by last week's thread though you were just burning to find something wrong with this experience. I agree - find a new school. Preferably one which is happy for the dc and their foo to be wrapped in cotton wool.

indyandlara Sun 17-Nov-13 10:53:11

Do none of your children ask to go to the toilet when you are out, 10 minutes after you have already been? Mine does as do children in my class. There will have been toilets but your child possibly held on too long and was desperate or was too far away from the loos to go. There will have been wipes and/or hand wash to clean up hands before lunch. If it wasn't raining then what a treat to eat outdoors in Autumn.

The "foo" issue really winds me up. The TA or teacher has absolutely no desire to see your child's genitals. We are trained professionals and helping children when they cannot manage at the toilet/ has an accident is part of our job. And people wonder why schools are becoming less willing to actually take children out of the classroom.

jellycake Sun 17-Nov-13 10:56:56

Can I make a suggestion about what happened? The site has toilets (because you wouldn't take 120 children somewhere that didn't) the children were told at various times throughout the day to use them but, being 5 year olds, there were points when the children needed the loo but were too far away to get back to the facilities. The teacher made the decision to ask an LSA (CRB cleared or they wouldn't be working for the school) to take the children into a sheltered area to have a wee.

You couldn't ask the children to carry their water bottles as some little darling would lose it and then parents would be complaining about THAT! Do you know how heavy 120 water bottles are? I would assume that all the children had a drink in their pack lunches and I would leave the water bottles at school.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 12:20:04

I think the OP is out tracking down a park ranger at the moment, to quiz him on the risk assessments and toilet plans of visiting schools.

Shente Sun 17-Nov-13 12:22:39

My dd is too young for school atm although I am a secondary teacher myself and I must admit that in the situation the op describes (drink not normlly allowed in lunchbox water bottles separate from lunch) it would not occur to me that this occasion was different and dd needed to bring a drink in lunchbox. I would assume she would be bringing her water bottle as usual unless the school advised me differently and I don't quite get why some people here are sneeringly suggesting the op must have known she should put a drink in for the trip. I would absolutely expect the school to advise parents if there is something put of the ordinary happening, parents are not psychic.

Yamyoid Sun 17-Nov-13 12:24:29

Have you heard of forest schools? The kids are outside in the woods etc all day, every day, all year.

Ds's school have been known not to take water bottles on trips, even a sport one in the summer. So for those wondering how that could happen, it does. The teachers simple didn't pick up the tray of bottles. So I think you could mention that's not on but the rest is fine.

WallyBantersJunkBox Sun 17-Nov-13 12:27:44

DH just asked if Yogi bear took the drinks out of the Pic-a-Nic basket?

Perhaps the Park ranger is out chasing him now.

CarolineKnappShappey Sun 17-Nov-13 12:28:44

I think we must all THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
And their foos.

insancerre Sun 17-Nov-13 12:29:11

how are they going to transport 90 water bottles?

insancerre Sun 17-Nov-13 12:30:52

as for no toilet facilities, where did the teachers go?
behind a tree?, doubt the union would let that happen grin

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 12:32:25

seriously! what has happened to common sense? parents need to be told their child will need to take a drink when going out for the day! [despair]
I always take extra bottles (and they are heavy to carry around all day) but unless a child asks for a drink how I wouldn't know.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 12:33:39

"unless the school advised me differently"
I'm not convinced they didn't, actually.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 12:35:49

I agree mrz

I mean really, worse case senario they have two drinks confused

Is water rationed now?

Blu Sun 17-Nov-13 12:36:45

I think you need to be discussing this with the school, establishing the facts from their point of view and asking the why your dd seemed not to have had a drink and what they did about toilets.

Talk to the school, you are absolutely entitled to ask the school about any concerns you have and none of us can answer on the school's behalf.

insancerre Sun 17-Nov-13 12:39:02

in the first post the op says they were returning to school at 3.15 then says daddy picked her up from the woods car park- why?

NoComet Sun 17-Nov-13 12:44:09

DD2 would have been cold, embarrassed (I don't think she would pee behind a tree) and fed up. She doesn't do 'outdoors'. She left Sciuts in the grounds she likes neither hikes nor camping.

This despite living in the country and trampolining in a Tshirt and shorts in the snow.

DD1 would have muttered if they really didn't have a drink, but otherwise loved it. (At 15 she hikes, camps and gets cold and wet for fun)

So I think my concern would be, that it was a trip that not all DCs that age, would have enjoyed and they are, IMO

Too young to be told to grin and bear it.

I did Brownies and I've had 7yo who wouldn't have liked it, while the older ones would have been fine.

I absolutely don't believe there were no loos, adults were obviously on the trip and as an adult I wouldn't pee behind a tree on a school trip-can you imagine the Daily mail headline ?? I certainly couldn't hold on for five hours.
Neither do I believe your child was taken behind the tree by a stranger, only a crb checked adult would accompany a child to the loo for a wee let alone a tree.
I find it hard to believe that 90 children went without a drink, neither would I expect an adult to have to carry a box of 90 water bottles. I think it more likely that your child did not pick up her bottle.
I do think you are blowing this out of proportion and this is why school trips are so blinking hard to do. I also think that your comment that your child is precious is a bit daft-all of our children are precious, You are going to come over as a bit doolally if you think yours is more precious than anyone else's.

Must admit to being a little shocked that you are so nit picky about the school and yet you need someone to actually tell you that your child needs a drink on a school trip. Do people really need to be spoonfed every little bit of commonsense info these days? I suspect this is why I end up rolling my eyes at school letters about trips in January that tell you your child needs a coat. No shit....really?

And I had to pee behind a bush yesterday miles out in the countryside with the dog. No body died and I do hope nobody saw my 'foo'!

Oh and I always end up carrying at least two spare packed lunches with drinks from the kitchen as frequently parents fail to provide a drink or enough lunch.

lljkk Sun 17-Nov-13 12:50:54

If it were a forest school wouldn't OP know that? Our forest schools make a big song & dance about it (we have beach schools locally, too).
No drink all day = bad in my mind, but rest no biggie if teachers prepared to deal with poonamis. Nice change.

kylesmybaby Sun 17-Nov-13 12:52:15

You sound way over the top on just about every part of the trip. Even your dig about not opening windows enough in the classroom. You should learn to pick your battles you are certainly going to need to with your attitude towards school trips. 'Tracking down the Park ranger' ffs!!

CatchesTheNightTrain Sun 17-Nov-13 12:54:19

Oh my goodness you would hate my children's school!
They recently had an overnight camping trip , on a farm owned by the school.

No facilities!
Weeing & pooing behind trees!
Thankfully hand gel was provided :-)

The children in pairs were all given a disposable BBQ to cook their supper, under supervision of course!

My DD is in year 3.

CatchesTheNightTrain Sun 17-Nov-13 12:54:53

Forgot to add I thought this was a wonderful adventure for her .

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 13:01:10

I wouldn't have been happy about the lack of drinks (school should have checked that all the 5 year olds in their care had drinks tbh, whether it was the parents' fault or not) and the lack of toilet facilities.

Wrapping up warm and spending 5 hours outside doing activities in November = not a problem.

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 13:06:46

My DS also goes to a school where they aren't allowed cartons of drink in their packed lunches, but have separate water bottles. Unless told otherwise I wouldn't know that the lunch box rules were different for trips - so why would the OP?

LadyBarlow Sun 17-Nov-13 13:09:26

I think you need to calm down about a CRB checked member of staff supervising your child having a wee. As a reception teacher, myself & my TAs have had to change plenty of children this term- I have 2 with medical needs still in nappies also- & yes we do see a child's private parts, but ffs, we're doing our best to care for the child's needs.
Regarding the eating outside etc, I don't have a problem with that & I take my kids to forest school, my class are outside no matter what the weather.
I would be very confident a risk assessment was done, we can't leave school without one!
Talk to the teacher & HT to reassure yourself but for gods sake, calm down & chill out

SlicedLemon Sun 17-Nov-13 13:09:47

I dont think you should have let your DD go on this trip. No school trip is compulsary. I say this not because I think from what I hjave read the school have done anything wrong but it screams out that it goes against everything you want for your DD. Which is fine - we all bring up our kids differently and most of us do an OK job at it considering there is no instruction manual.

You say you had concerns beforehand. You discussed these prior to the trip but I get the impression you were still not happy. So why let your DD go?

I am a great believer that kids should experience different things. Some they will love and others despise. I have 2 DDs. SO different. DD1 would have loved this trip but DD2 would have moaned all day long. I still would have let her go though because of wanting to give my kids a broad experience of life as possible.

The fact is being outside all day in November (and to be fair most the UK is yet to have a proper cold snap) is good for kids. Modern life makes us think they need to be wrapped up in the warm and only let out for short periods. Kids need more fresh air (especially in the winter) than most get tbh. You say you warpped your DD up because she feels the cold. Its is still more autumn than winter and yes its cooler but proper cold cold. Is perhaps possible she was too well wrapped up for an active day? Perhaps part of the reason for her headache was being too hot with all the physical activity.

The drink thing could have been made clearer on the school letter about the trip perhaps. This is something I would raise with the school but not in an accusationary way.

The toiletting - I suspect toilets were available but your DD wanted to go again when they were mid activity away from the toilets. Not ideal but we are into the countryside and my girls have often had to stop for a call of nature. Peeing in the woods is not the end of the world.

I do think you need to chill out about this. I have some sympathy. DD1 is 15 now but I recall her first school trip and I was a wreck all day long worrying. You do seem to be taking a very aggressive and negative stance towards the school. No one is out to lie to you. It would cost them their career probably.

I do think you need to contact the school and approach them for a discussion about the trip to put your mind at rest. Do not whatever you do go in with accusations and stating shortfalls. Kids only ever (even when questioned) give you snippets of info. Kids rarely know or understand the full story. The world through the eyes of a 5yo is very different to the same world through our eyes. Dont take everything your DD says as fact. I am not suggesting she is lieing but she may be out of context and not saying the whole thing. Dont make a tit of yourself at school by accusing the school of anything based solely on what your DD says.

Perhaps OP you could report back with the facts surrounding this trip once you have had the discussion. I wonder if this is the first time the school have run this trip or if they run it every year? It maybe they need to make improvements for next year if its a new trip and therefore may appreciate parent feedback.

But please do chill out you seem to have got really het up over this. We all love our kids to the end of the world and back again but they can cope with dirt, freshair, and chilly days. Its all part of the adventure of childhood. Childhood should not be sterile and centrally heated as a constant.

Artesia Sun 17-Nov-13 13:10:57

You should thank your lucky stars if they weren't allowed drinks- just think how many more times the children would have needed to risk life and limb weeing behind a tree, in front of a random stranger, if they had been slurping from a water bottle all day.......hmm

LadyBarlow Sun 17-Nov-13 13:11:28

Sorry, meant to add that in my opinion, the school haven't broken any guidelines- as long as there was a risk assessment done which was approved by HT

spanieleyes Sun 17-Nov-13 13:20:12

I'm just trying to think.....
The "No pooping in the woods" Law of 1825 and perhaps The " Warm Coat on school trip" regulations of 1936.

......otherwise, sounds fine to me!

cazzybabs Sun 17-Nov-13 13:21:15

Starballbunny - you can't dp trips that will please every child... I think at 4 they should grin and bear it... part of life is trying new things; you don't need to like everything but you must try

feelingdizzy Sun 17-Nov-13 13:23:00

I am a teacher and a parent, my kids would have loved this trip. However as a teacher I have found myself more reluctant to arrange these trips (and they are a huge hassle to arrange).As some parents really do believe their children are made off glass and so easily damaged. I would never do anything to the children I teach that I wouldn't be happy doing to/with my own children. All teachers I know feel the same

Some kids will love these trips some wont, its through having different experiences that we can find these things out.

As a parent of older children remember your kids are at school a long time. And the chances are you will hit serious issues at some point. You will need your voice to be heard at these important times , so be careful about what you define as a problem.

On a practical note always send your kids with more food drink clothes than you think they will need.

SatinSandals Sun 17-Nov-13 13:39:20

It sounds a great trip to me, I can't see anything wrong with it, except lack if drink, but I can't help thinking she didn't tell anyone. I take schools pond dipping and bug hunting. When they arrive we take them to the loo because there are none in the area of activity which is quite a walk away. If they are desperate that have to go behind a tree. All children should be out in all weathers IMO, if appropriately dressed.

TheDoctrineOfWho Sun 17-Nov-13 13:39:39

Hmm, DS1 doesn't have packed lunches normally so I might assume the water bottle would go too.

But other than that, YABU. Also, when weeing in the woods, isn't it pretty difficult to expose a bare naked anything as it's all kind of covered by the squatting and the clothing?

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 13:43:04

Would parents honestly not think to include something to drink if they were having a family day out and packing a picnic?

TheDoctrineOfWho Sun 17-Nov-13 13:44:06

Mrz, I would send a packed lunch and the water bottle; I wouldn't necessarily put an extra drink in the packed lunch in case the water bottles didn't get taken.

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 13:48:51

mrz - unless otherwise told I would assume the same rules apply to packed lunches for school trips as for packed lunches for staying in school. For DS that means no drink in his packed lunch, but they have a water bottle that goes into school every day.

Did the letter not specifically say to bring lunch and drink in disposable containers/bags as nothing would be taken back to school but disposed of?

I think you need to re read the original letter.

When my dc go on school trips, lunch with drink is taken in plastic bags, so it can all be thrown away.

I dont see anything wrong with the setup you described.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 13:53:00

Why would anyone assume that there will be access to jugs of water in a forest even if there are in the school dining hall [stunned]

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 13:55:08

There's no way of knowing whether or not the parent or school has been unreasonable without access to the school's risk assessment for the trip. I doubt the school has behaved as badly as the OP thinks. However, on the basis of the worst case scenario, I do agree that 60 children peeing and pooing behind trees is not quite the same thing as one child getting caught short on a family walk! Dog poo on walks is bad enough, but I take huge exception to stepping in human excrement and discarded toilet paper while out on a walk... so you would want to know this trip had been meticulously planned!!!

However, I know as a fact that some schools appear to think it OK for non-CRB checked people not well known to the school to help on school trips and be responsible for toilet visits. My father was once asked to help on a school trip when he'd just turned up to drop his grandson off at the coach. He then spent a fair part of the rest of the day helping take the small boys (aged 6) to the toilet and helping wipe small bottoms when requested, because he was the only male helper, so happiest to go into the boys' toilets. He was not accompanied by any of the CRB-checked female staff. So much for only highly trained, CRB-checked school staff doing this.

Also, I find it funny that considering how to ensure children have enough water to drink during the day does not appear to be part of the school's risk assessment. A school dotting every i and crossing every t, and therefore taking human nature into account, will have had the common sense to specify how it wanted parents to send their children's drinks into school on the school trip day, if sending a beaker of water in as usual was not going to be the convenient way of doing it. Why SHOULD a parent automatically presume that the school will be incapable of transporting their child's drinks bottle to the venue unless it is inside the child's lunchbox?

insancerre Sun 17-Nov-13 13:55:42

people are assuming that the water bottle that is in the classroom is then taken into the lunch hall for the children to drink from at lunchtime
no the water bottle stays in the classroom and the children have access to jugs of water ( and milk in our school)and cups in the lunch hall

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 13:57:29

mrz - I'd assume they take their water bottles OR they would make clear that additional drinks need to be provided for school trips.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 13:59:18

Perhaps the teacher assumed they would take their water bottles too

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 14:00:40

If the teacher assumed they would take their water bottles and then forgot to, then I think that's a legitimate issue for the OP to raise with the school.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 14:02:27

rabbitstew the OP hasn't answered my question about whether her child told the teacher mummy hadn't sent a drink ... in which case I'm sure staff would have seen she got one even if it meant giving her their own drink.
I'm afraid I simply don't believe that all 90 children went without a drink

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 14:03:43

It's why we don't assume hettienne and why my post wasn't serious

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 14:08:35

I am not a betting woman, but I would lay money that the need for a lunchtime drink in lunchboxes was spelt out in the letter home.

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 14:09:45

There does seem to be a bit of a problem with some schools assuming parents will automatically know how everything works. If this is the first school trip these 5 year olds have been on, then clear information about what is expected is the way to go.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 14:12:05

shock

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 14:18:01

I'm so pleased that we don't ask children to take packed lunch to the woods nettles soup and worms with rice are so much easier to handle

LIZS Sun 17-Nov-13 14:18:38

Sorry but think you are being ott, especially about the supervised weeing . The vast majority of adults , CRB checked or not , would not go out of their way to see a child's bits ! You could have asked to see the Risk Assessment before agreeing to the trip (although perhaps you weren't aware). Clearly they did have an improvised shelter and seating at lunchtime, although it may not have met your dd's expectations of shelter, which suggests to me that your dd may not be the most reliable source of information on the other details.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 14:21:01

Can see it now. Next letter : can all parents please make sure they feed and water their children. Children will also need clothes.

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 14:22:07

Next letter just has to say "please include a drink inside the packed lunch box/bag as children will not have access to their water bottles on the trip".

LIZS Sun 17-Nov-13 14:23:15

Maybe they offered them a hot drink and op's dd declined ?

Floggingmolly Sun 17-Nov-13 14:23:17

The packed lunch should have included a drink. Who doesn't understand that when you pack a lunch for a child's school trip, you must provide liquid? Let alone when they're going to the middle of a bleeding forest.
Check with the other mums, op, and see if you were the only loon innocent who thought there'd be a tap in the middle of the forest; or if all the other kids came back as desiccated husks also.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 14:24:05

Hettienne How did you know the last letter didn't say this already?

Honestly, do you all think teachers are stupid?

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 14:27:00

A drink is part of lunch whether the school provide jugs of water or it's in the packed lunch already. Ergo it's surely not a huge leap to realise that as they are taking their lunch with them as obviously jugs of water will be unavailable in the woods (where it was clear they were going) and putting a drink in a lunch box is obvious to anyone with a brain cell surely confused

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 14:28:32

we are back to common sense Gileswithachainsaw hmm

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 14:29:08

The OP sent a water bottle in with her DD. I would think a water bottle was fine for the provision of liquid in a forest Floggingmolly, unless the school said they specifically wanted a small drink packed in the lunch box.

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 14:30:57

Honestly, I wouldn't know that a drink bottle outside the lunch box was unmanageable for a school and that they needed a carton of something inside the lunch box, especially if the rule is usually no cartons in the lunch box Giles.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 14:31:40

or lack of it

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 14:32:00

clam - many posters (some who I believe are teachers) think that the OP should have known automatically, so I wouldn't be surprised if they hadn't stated it in a letter.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 14:34:13

The parent sent a drink into school with her child. It is NOT the parent's fault the drink did not go with the child on the school trip.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 14:39:29

Apart from that little detail, the fact the school managed to produce stools and a plastic sheet for the children to shelter under indicates to me that there was a lot of thought put into this trip. If one child didn't drink all day and chose to tell her parents this but not alert the teachers prior to the end of the day, I do have sympathy with the teachers on that - as mrz has pointed out, they are not mind readers. At the age of 5, the only way I could have ensured my child drank something during the day was if someone hovered over them watching them drink it, and it isn't really reasonable to expect teachers to do that.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 14:41:05

Our letters usually say to just provide a disposable lunch.

Ie, a carrier bag and things wrapped in foil or freezer bags and a bottle of water. I use an old drinks bottle that I keep and re fill.

No one has starved or gone without a drink despite not having everything spelt out. We so a strange thing too sometimes and ask the teachers if we are unsure about something.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 14:41:28

Unless the child has a medical problem?

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 14:42:12

Perhaps if the OP had put the drink in the packed lunch it might have been taken with the child

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 14:43:34

I'm afraid, rabbitstew that there are indeed some parents who expect exactly that from their child's teachers. There was a thread on here quite recently about it (along the lines of why hasn't my child's teacher noticed that she's only drunk a little bit from her water bottle today).

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 14:44:35

Obviously it wasn't clear to the OP that the drink had to be inside the packed lunch. Not sure why it is such an issue for teachers to explain things clearly confused

If it's a child's first school trip, and the school's requirements for the food and drink parents' provide is different to a normal day, then it is not obvious to all parents what they want.

<gets sucked in again>

This is not about availability of a drink (nobody has every died of thirst because they had no access to water for 6 hours btw, but that's by the by). Or toilets for that matter.
Those factual questions could be cleared up quite easily. Of course none of us know what was and wasn't said in any letter to the parents.

The OP is unhappy with her DDs school.
They won't be able to do right for doing wrong.

I am quite sure that the school will be happy to facilitate a smooth transition to another school as somebody upthread said so diplomatically.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 14:46:13

If the OP had put the drink in the packed lunch, then the OP would probably have been assuming that the only drink opportunity for their child that day would be at lunchtime, otherwise the drink being in the same container as the lunch would not be helpful. This was not the OP's assumption.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 14:46:37

But she'd hardly need it separate for the class room would she confused

On the plus side she's less likely to have needed a wee if she wasn't drinking grinblush

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 14:47:14

hettienne if you were packing a picnic would you include drinks?

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 14:47:41

If I was packing a picnic I would probably take DS's water bottle for him.

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 14:48:26

I probably wouldn't put it in the same bag as the food either, I'd have it separate so it was easily accessible.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 14:50:33

But then you wouldn't have 90 kids bottles to carry so it wouldn't matter.

Teachers, next time get a horse to follow you packed up with the bottles just in case the kids can't wait til designated intervals

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 14:50:39

I never put my children's drinks in with their food when I go on a picnic, I keep them separately so that they don't leak on the food.

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 14:50:51

And if he was going on a school trip I'd send him in with his lunch bag and his water bottle, as usual, unless requested by the school to do something different.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 14:51:12

Gileswithachainsaw - how do you think they got all those stools into the wood? grin

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 14:51:39

I hope they packed the horse a drink grin

lisad123everybodydancenow Sun 17-Nov-13 14:51:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 14:52:13

Giles - I have no idea what teachers do on a school trip, as I'm not a teacher. Why would I?

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 14:52:48

And in this case, talking about stools is doubly appropriate, given the seating and toileting issues.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 14:53:36

lisad - not necessarily true it's a TA who is CRB checked (or whatever they now call it) who is pulling your child's pants down on a school trip.

Floggingmolly Sun 17-Nov-13 14:56:39

No school child needs help pulling their effing pants down!! The child will not have had an audience as she peed behind a bush.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 14:56:55

If truth be told, take your own 5-year old child out all day in the wood and you KNOW you will end up being the one carrying its food AND drink, and it WILL need the toilet miles from any facilities. That's why I wouldn't volunteer to take a host of 5-year olds into the woods with me. grin

Yamyoid - there was a previous thread, started either by this OP or her sister, about this trip, and I mentioned the forest/outdoor schools on that.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 14:58:06

"I have no idea what teachers do on a school trip, as I'm not a teacher. Why would I?"
Doesn't stop most people on MN having a go though.

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 14:59:12

A 5 year old girl wearing pants, tights, trousers, thick socks, boots, warm jumper, coat, gloves etc probably does need both help getting everything down and being helped/held so she doesn't wee all over her clothes - especially if not used to alfresco weeing.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 14:59:30

I find it strange that the OPs child couldn't pull her own pants down ...

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 15:00:06

Do you know what, at one point earlier in this thread, when Forest schools were mentioned, I thought, "What a lovely thing to do. I'll look into that."
Now I'm just thinking, "What a nightmare, can't be arsed."

<tired>

Bonsoir Sun 17-Nov-13 15:00:39

I'm with the OP - this sort of school outing is completely pointless and very unpleasant (and possibly risky) for the DC.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 15:00:52

Floggingmolly - har, har. I have experience of someone else's child making a HUGE fuss about needing the toilet in a wood, but being TERRIFIED someone would see her pull her pants down and show her bottom, then being terrified of the flora and fauna tickling her bottom, then accidentally peeing on her pants and down her skirt and not being in a fit state to "enjoy" a whole day of this. In a group of 90 children, you can 100% guarantee they won't all take peeing behind a tree in their stride!

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 15:01:12

Where is op? grin
Maybe she passed out because the letter didn't also say to breathe grin

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 15:01:42

Most of these places have a visitors centre but maybe they had gone away from the facilities and were desperate.

Even if it was a parent helper, they would be CRBed.

OTT reaction.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 15:01:49

Bonsoir, maybe you've been in France too long! wink

Bonsoir Sun 17-Nov-13 15:02:38

The French are a lot tougher with DC than the British - overnight school trips (up to a week) at 5 etc.

It's all a complete waste of time IMVHO.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 15:02:41

How do you know it was pointless Bonsoir ...do you know what was taught during the day or how much the children learnt that they couldn't in a classroom.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 15:03:13

And then there's my own mother, who used to insist I put pants on over my tights to stop the tights falling down... At five, I think I would have found it a struggle to keep my coat, jumper, skirt, tights, two pairs of pants, socks, shoes, etc, out of the way of my wee... and heaven forbid if I HAD needed to poo...

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 15:03:33

I meant the outdoorsy bit.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 15:04:17

Sieveoooplay - how many times do I have to repeat that I KNOW not all schools ensure all helpers on school trips are CRB checked?

Bonsoir Sun 17-Nov-13 15:04:20

I have never seen DC learn anything useful on a school trip before Y3, other than put up with being on a coach for a long time and hanging around.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 15:04:29

I agree rabbitstew it's very unlikely that 90 children were peeing behind trees which seems to suggest the others visited toilets at some point in the day

Bonsoir Sun 17-Nov-13 15:05:29

(I should add that I have been a parent helper on far more school trips than I could count)

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 15:06:28

I think the children could have learned an awful lot from a day outside in the woods. Doing the whole day with 90 children, though, and children only 5-years old who are still very varied in their maturity, sounds like a nightmare. I would rather something like that were done in smaller groups, tbh.

sieveoooplay That is not necessarily true...I have been on several school trips as a parent helper and have never been CRB checked. I don't see the problem with the situation posted about mind, I'm just saying it isn't a given for all schools.

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 15:06:48

clam - I've done forest schools with 2-4 years olds and it is hard work (but we do manage to take drinks for everyone wink).

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 15:07:46

Fair play to the teachers for doing it - not at all for the faint hearted to take 90 kids into the woods at the same time!

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 15:08:01

I found this but then I was deterred by the image of 90 children all struggling with tights/thermals/wellingtons trying to poo, unseen by random hikers, behind trees while glugging from litre bottles of water and I gave up on the idea.

I would give quite a lot to be in the staff room tomorrow after OP has been in to school.

insancerre Sun 17-Nov-13 15:08:20

bonsoir then I suggest you don't understand about child development or have an understanding of how children learn
children can learn an awful lot from trips like this

Bonsoir maybe your school runs poor trips? Ds is only in yr 3 now but has loved all school trips including nature walks and den building in the woods. All things that we also do with him as a family but it is the novelty of doing something with school friends.

Just because you and yours get nothing from it, don't presume that everyone else feels the same.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 15:10:23

Perhaps that's where the ops dds bottle went? Swipes by teacher and filled with vodka just to get them through the day?

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 15:10:28

insancerre Hence me posting my link.

Rabbit but think of the rewards afterwards, getting back to the unanimous gratitude from 90 parents.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 15:11:43

grin

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 17-Nov-13 15:11:48

How very surprising that, having set her face against this trip from the beginning, OP has found that she didn't have her mind changed when it happened, and amazingly enough all her prejudices were confirmed. hmm

Most of what's in the OP is just silly whingeing, but it's really offensive and stupid, I think, to present a TA helping them find somewhere to do a wee as 'strangers pulling her pants down in a public wood'.

Zero sympathy, soz.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 15:12:07

Well I took my Y1s on a trip and they learnt about creatures living in the rockpools around our coast. They learnt about tides and visited a tidal island. They wrote stories and researched shipwrecks and created environmental art.Aa year later they look at the photographs and explain to others about the different types of crabs or fish. So I would say they learnt a great deal.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 15:17:01

You see, the thing is, as a parent I will happily take my children out all day and seriously hope they DO drink as little as possible, so that I don't have to worry about them needing the loo... If I had someone else's child with me, I wouldn't dare do that. grin

pinkyredrose Sun 17-Nov-13 15:17:52

It's packed lunch. PACKED! Not pack.

Now carry on being pfb.

WorrySighWorrySigh Sun 17-Nov-13 15:18:34

This is one of those threads where I find the general MN attitude very belittling of a parent's natural concerns.

Of course the OP is concerned by what she has heard from her daughter. Any parent would be. This is her daughter, she knows her best.

Many children will not be at all happy or comfortable having to go to the toilet outside in the woods. And why should they?

Having had experience of incompetently organised primary school trips I would have no difficulty in believing that there were no facilities. Forgetting to take drinks would just be part and parcel of this.

Many parents will not have the experience of spending a day in the woods so will not necessarily know how to dress their child appropriately. My DCs' primary was in a very deprived area so many children would not have necessarily had access to suitable clothes. There would have been plenty of children in dolly shoes and thin Hello Kitty anoraks.

SoupDragon Sun 17-Nov-13 15:19:26

This again? It it really the mother posting this time or some other relative?

teacherwith2kids Sun 17-Nov-13 15:22:08

In the county I used to work in, every school did Forest School - so in many schools, every Infant child would spend an afternoon a week out in Forest school [other schools did all the way up to Y6, or did a term for each class, or whatever - it would depend on the number of Forest school trained leaders and helprs as well as on the quality of the Forest resource available to the school]

I've been on such afternoons pretty frequently. The first thing is that the 'able' children in the classroom are not always those who are practically able in Forest school, and that is hugely valuable in terms of self esteem, group bonding, social skills etc.

The children learn a large range of science / DT / Art skills that are not always easy to teach in the classroom - tracking animals, creating keys to identify trees and plants, surveying minibeasts for science, sawing, cutting, joining, shaping different materials [whether wood to make a den or sheeting to make a tent or natural materials to make an instrument], or a whole load of art, collage, photography, sculpture, dye-making, pigment-using etc with natural materials.

In terms of PE, fitness, enjoying the open air, developing respect for nature and 'green' issues, knowing about correct clothing etc the intangible benefits are also huge. I was genuinely shocked when taking my new 'non Forest schooled' pupils to an outdoor adventure place for a couple of days - it was obvious that very few had been wet, cold, muddy before, and many had wholly inadequate clothing for being outside for more than the dash between car and house: not a good basis for a healthy and active adulthood.

Sparklingbrook Sun 17-Nov-13 15:23:18

I don't know Soup i thought they were going to ring the child in sick? Unless the other thread isn't connected. In which case apologies.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 15:23:30

worrysigh I'm afraid your nickname doesn't inspire confidence.

spanieleyes Sun 17-Nov-13 15:24:49

Good God, it's not rocket science. If you're spending the day in the woods you wear warm clothing and stout footwear.

CarolineKnappShappey Sun 17-Nov-13 15:25:43

Can anyone link to the previous thread?

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 15:26:19

Maybe industrial scale Forest School isn't such a great idea?... If the school could organise regular trips for smaller groups, that would be a wonderful addition to the curriculum. It's a shame that money, staffing and other resources probably don't allow for it.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 15:27:18

You would think spaniel

However do kids go anywhere without instructions on suitable clothing? Parents manages just fine for five years yet somehow the kid hits school and we need idiot proof instructions in a letter or we can't figure it out confused

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 15:28:20

Maybe also, if this is a new thing for the school, it could have invited parents in to talk to them about it, first?

SatinSandals Sun 17-Nov-13 15:28:44

Obviously the school was lax. They failed to arrange a heated marquee with tables and chairs and jugs of water and didn't have all the porter loos in situation first!

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 15:29:18

Gileswithachainsaw - not all parents do manage just fine for five years, you know. Schools unfortunately have to cater for that when they send their instructions out.

hettienne Sun 17-Nov-13 15:29:20

A lot of children don't have warm coats and stout footwear. Many of the children I work with are still wearing daps and coats a size too small because there isn't the money at home for snowboots and padded jackets.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 15:29:51
mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 15:29:57

I agree rabbitstew I would not take 90 children if it was a Forest School outing if that's what this was.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 15:30:08

But then the parents would complain cos it was twice the price to go cos of the extra vehicles needed to transport all the crap lol

WorrySighWorrySigh Sun 17-Nov-13 15:31:42

clam I'm not quite sure what my username has to do with this.

I just dont fall for the orthodoxy that teachers are always right and that all parental concerns should be brushed aside.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 15:31:48

Some parents would complain whatever you did.

insanityscratching Sun 17-Nov-13 15:33:49

Tbh none of that would concern me, dd would be happy being outside all day, I'd have made sure she was wrapped up snug and would have put extra drinks in her lunchbox as I do for every school trip just in case she wasn't able to refill her water bottle. Peeing behind a tree with a TA supervising is better than her peeing herself IMO and she's done that before on a day out with me so I don't see the difference.
I'm sorry you are unhappy but I'd say you knew about the trip beforehand and so had plenty of opportunity to make sure that your dd was wrapped up warm and had enough drinks with her to last the day, complaining about peeing in the woods seems petty to me.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 15:34:18

Not all parental concerns, just fussy ones And I disagree that anyone on here has said that teacher are always right.

NewNameforNewTerm Sun 17-Nov-13 15:34:45

We've been on school trips where, as we move round, the toilets are a five minute walk back to the visitors centre at points during the day. If a child is busting (as many 5 year olds are by the time they realise they need the loo) we've used a bush. Maybe this was the case with the OP, rather than it being the plan. We make regular breaks at the visitors centre accompanied by me saying "does anyone need the toilet? It will be an hour until we are back here, can you go a try? Maybe you'll squeeze one while you are on the loo" or words to that effect. It doesn't mean the child won't need a wee when we are in an inconvenient place.

barnet Sun 17-Nov-13 15:36:12

OP, you are over reacting. Kids in norway do exactly what you describe most days from the age of 4. They are very healthy and happy, independent and have fun. Give your kids abreak.

WorrySighWorrySigh Sun 17-Nov-13 15:40:31

Some parents would complain whatever you did.

But that doesnt mean that schools should ignore parents concerns. If something was badly organised then the school should learn from this not brush it under the carpet and laugh at a parent for voicing concerns.

If a school cant even organise a trip to the woods properly then it doesnt bode well for bigger residential trips.

Yep, I agree, some parents will never be happy. Common sense is really needed, a packed lunch surely anyone else would put a couple of drinks in, not expect a teacher to walk around with jugs or loads of water bottles. (And Children do sometimes forget drinks, I've never known a teacher or TA to either not have a spare or share theirs, you know most teaching staff rather like children and don't like to see them upset) Warm clothes and study footware, surely you would dress your child appropriately?

I struggling to believe there were no toilets at all. Probably just in designated areas and a TA kindly took your child to wee behind a tree if they were desperate.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 15:52:14

In fairness, it seems that the OP was determined to find fault with this trip whatever. Both this and her (linked) previous thread show that she wasn't on-board with the idea from the word go.
So, we don't really know whether it truly was badly organised, or just that she's just nit-picking.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 15:53:12

We only have the OPs view that the trip wasn't organised properly by her "expectations" perhaps the other 89 parents were delighted by their children's day in the woods.

Handbagsonnhold Sun 17-Nov-13 15:57:33

Op it seems from previous thread you already had real reservations about this trip....

NewNameforNewTerm Sun 17-Nov-13 16:06:41

And the OP only has her child's account of the day and we know how accurate children can be.

spanieleyes Sun 17-Nov-13 16:12:21

...which is fine but it's the "have they broken any regulations/laws" attitude that irritates. OK, perhaps things COULD have been better organised ( and we only have the OP's concerns to say that they might) but why the immediate 'regulation and law' reaction? It is this attitude that stops teachers from running trips/residentials /clubs etc. Why not just ask the school rather than troop in guns blazing!

WorrySighWorrySigh Sun 17-Nov-13 16:19:50

I think that the first term is too soon for this type of trip.

Some children will not have the robustness or confidence for it. Parents may be new to the primary school world so wont know what questions to ask or what is considered normal.

If hearty hikes in the woods arent your thing then chances are you wont have suitable clothing. At my DCs primary school a lot of families wouldnt have the money, the knowledge and, sadly in a few instances, the inclination to dress their child for such a trip. In the first term of primary teachers wont necessarily know which are the children who wont be properly provided for.

Insisting that a trip in the woods will be good for them whether they are prepared or not comes a little too close to pushing children into the deep end of the pool to teach them to swim for my liking.

A year or two later and children and parents would probably be far more ready for this type of activity and get a lot more out of it.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 16:23:55

Er, there was a consent form and a letter. Anyone who felt their child was not up to going was free to say no.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 16:25:34

And if parents are the kind to not be bothered to dress appropriately they will be the same fir every trip. Why should the others miss out

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 16:28:08

I'm sorry but it's nothing LIKE pushing a non-swimmer into the deep end of a pool!

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 16:29:54

As I said earlier in this thread I took my class to the coast and yes some children weren't dressed appropriately so we raided the spare clothing cupboard to kit them out before we got on the bus.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 16:31:43

They were walking through a local wood/country park not trekking to the South Pole!

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 16:32:03

Where does it say it's their first term in school? The OP's dd is 5, but that could mean Year 1.
Also, found this in the previous thread: "Apparently there is a 'centre' there with toilets, but we've never seen this & think they maybe slightly glossing over their description when its nothing more than a large glorified shed with a few toilets."
This adds more credence to the likelihood that weeing behind trees was a one-off, as opposed to the plan for all 90.

insancerre Sun 17-Nov-13 16:35:41

did your class enjoy the beach trip mrz?
I took a group of 2 and 3 year olds to the beach for the day a couple of weeks ago
they had a fantastic time, we beachcombed, made some art from our finds and built sandcastles

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 16:41:10

We went rock pooling with the wardens but they probably enjoyed getting soaking wet sitting on rocks while the tide went out around them more than anything ...lots of little mermaids and pirates grin

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 16:43:32

and they all survived!

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 16:43:41

shock What? You mean they got WET????!!!!
I hope there was a heated changing room for them to dry off in, and no random strangers drifting in and out to gawp.
Please post a copy of your risk assessment (if you bothered to write one).

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 16:44:23

Were those crabs crb checked?

WorrySighWorrySigh Sun 17-Nov-13 16:47:27

Coming from the era where pupils were pushed into pools to encourage them to swim I do see a similar attitude. The attitude that being uncomfortable is somehow good for you.

It doesnt matter whether they were in reception or year one. IMO at the age of 5 they were too young for a day spent in the woods without more facilities and preparation.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 16:49:38

erm blush noooooooo! there was no changing room
We have to complete a risk assessment for the LEA prior to taking children out of school which the wardens provided but didn't include getting soaked from head to toe but I will next time. wink

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 16:52:12

Worrysigh I have news for you: things have moved on in schools. We no longer throw kids into swimming pools, nor do cane them for that matter.
The vast, vast majority of teachers nowadays are competent, professional, caring and well-organised people who are passionate about taking good care of our children, whether we're in the classroom or out and about. In fact, I take significantly more care of other people's children than I do of my own. You do the profession a great disservice by the way you doubt us.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 16:52:24

Worry- then don't sign consent forms with your dd then.

There were most likely regular breaks, and although out all day there would not been six hours of pure walking. More likely two or three with stops in between and an joys/hour and a half for lunch plus stopping to look at things, sit on logs and rocks.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 16:53:06

The crabs were never allowed unsupervised access to the children although the sea weed in plain sight of everyone! shock

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 16:54:10

My ds1 has gone on an all day trip to the woods with school at this time of year, before. He loved it. He was 7, though, not 5, so a more manageable age and capable of doing more interesting things, tbh. School did make clear how they wanted packed lunch to be brought in, though, as sometimes they want little backpacks and sometimes they want everything to be disposable.

All trips carry risks and schools have been known to get things wrong before, but the vast majority of trips go off without serious mishaps and most kids come back happy, having enjoyed a day away from the school building. If my ds had come back thirsty and with a headache, I would have made a mental note to take action to avoid this happening next time around, but would not have considered this a serious failing on the school's part. As for peeing behind a tree, ds being a boy would relish the opportunity. grin It's not so fun for girls, obviously! I think it would be a most unusual teacher who would willingly spend all day in a wood without toilet facilities with 90 five year olds in tow.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 16:54:16

grin

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 16:58:49

We go on a trip to Skegness (Y2). Last year one little girls parents wouldn't let her paddle in case she got cold.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 16:59:05

As clam said on the earlier thread, on AIBU, the OP said there were toilets but likely to be in a glorified shed

This November has been pretty mild.

After reading what the child was wearing, I suspect she was so thirsty due to running about all day in clothes that would do for -5 degrees.

SatinSandals Sun 17-Nov-13 17:01:00

I organise trips the moment, which get good feedback. One sort is at a pond and 2hours away from a toilet and the other involves a walk where I expect we are 2 hours without a toilet. There are no convenient toilets in that time. They have to go behind a tree if they can't wait.

FrauMoose Sun 17-Nov-13 17:01:03

Though the internet can be a useful sounding board, I'd have been more inclined to talk to other parents about whether their children enjoyed the trip, and what they'd said about it.

My own experience is that schools are pretty clear in advance - in writing - about what a trip will be involved. They are also helpful if parents have any queries before or after the consent forms has been signed.

If my child seemed unwell and/or unhappy after a trip, I'd think the easiest thing would be to make time to see a teacher to ask for clarification about:-

1) provision of additional drinking water, for any child who had omitted to take a drink as part of their packed lunch
2) whether there were any toilet/handwashing facilities at the site. (If not, what arrangements had been put in place to ensure that adequate hygiene was observed.)

If I wasn't 100% happy about the answers received, I might put any concerns I had in writing and ask for a formal reply.

Most schools plan trips very carefully and well. If something goes slightly wrong, again a good school will say what hadn't been foreseen and what improved arrangements will be made on future occasions.

SatinSandals Sun 17-Nov-13 17:03:08

We have hand gel available because obviously there is nowhere to wash hands either. We risk assess. Anyone can see the risk assessment.

insancerre Sun 17-Nov-13 17:05:25

we had a 6 page risk assessment for our trip to the beach
was it worth it? yes, and can't wait to do it again

Sieveoooplay Sun 17-Nov-13 17:05:47

And you know what its like - once one child goes, they all need it.

On said trip to Skegness, on the first year the class teacher said they could go, cue me and another parent helper shuffling children up and down the coach for over an hour.

Next year a different teacher said no loo trips until we arrived. No one went and no accidents (except the 10 children who were travel sick!)

Floggingmolly Sun 17-Nov-13 17:10:06

If op had such reservations in advance of the trip; she could have tried a lot harder to make her preparations bomb proof, couldn't she? like packing a bloody drink in the lunch box

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 17:16:18

On a Woodland Trust trip I went on a year or two back (granted, with 9 year olds) the rangers were terribly particular about hygiene, and we had clear instructions that any snacks had to be "wrapped" and couldn't be eaten with bare hands if they'd touched the river water (which was probably cleaner at that point in its journey to the sea than what comes out of the tap) unless they'd used the hand sanitiser and so forth.

I therefore think it's highly unlikely that any of the OP's fears have any grounding.

allmycats Sun 17-Nov-13 17:24:30

You really have been trying to find a problem with this trip, first it was going to be too cold and now the poor little darling has had to piss in the woods.
Why didn't you put a drink in her lunch box ?
Your child is safe and well, get over yourself or your child is in for a hell of a life !

WorrySighWorrySigh Sun 17-Nov-13 17:38:55

Clam sadly my experience of my DCs' schools in the UK has shown only intermittent evidence of the passion and professionalism you describe. In a good school poor practice wont be tolerated and the teacher will be moved on. Unfortunately they do seem to gravitate towards the badly managed schools resulting in pools of poor practice.

Thankfully my DCs are starting to come out of secondary education now.

It is right for parents to express concerns if they have them. Parents should not be ridiculed for this.

If the school can, hand on heart, say that there were perfectly adequate toilet, shelter and drinking water facilities and that the OP's DD was imagining things then fair enough. But if not then the school should look again at how it arranges such trips.

Handbagsonnhold Sun 17-Nov-13 17:39:27

Wonder if Op managed to track down the Park ranger in the end....Do hope she didnt call his 'facilities' a glorified shack....shock

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 17:41:53

insancerre - I'm glad to hear the 6-page risk assessment was worth it and you can't wait to do it again. How was the trip to the beach? grin

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 17:45:59

We take out children on bushcraft survival worrysigh and what the OP describes sounds luxurious ... the worms and rice wasn't a joke ...they ca,e back for seconds

WorrySighWorrySigh Sun 17-Nov-13 17:47:46

River water - Leptospirosis (Weil's Disease). Rare but preventable by good hygiene habits around river banks.

insancerre Sun 17-Nov-13 17:47:53

wonderful, thanks
we got the train there, we walked from the nursery to the station, then back again
the children were so well behaved, we had lots of lovely comments from members of the public about our fantastic children
we had biscuits and water on the beach and lunch in a local cafe

LightastheBreeze Sun 17-Nov-13 18:04:45

Surely you would pack a drink in the lunchbox to drink at lunchtime. I certainly wouldn't expect them all to carry water bottles about all day. Surely in November 5 year olds can go without water for a couple of hours. I don't recall carrying water bottle for DS when we used to go out, he had his drink with his picnic. Obviously he had drinks in the hot weather but this was November FFS.
They would have all ate their lunch at some stage and I guess that was when there was the opportunity to use the toilet.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 18:07:33

Ah but light it wasn't on the letter to actually put a drink IN the lunch box

AIBU to be really rather astonished that this OP generated such a response? shock

It's such a small issue, between the OP and her DD's school.
It's amazing that any school trips happen, ever.

Risk assessments for every eventuality... thanks to all teachers who go to all the bother to take their classes out in to the dangerous real world.
And lost of winewinewine for afterwards...

NewNameforNewTerm Sun 17-Nov-13 18:15:29

Yep! Weil's and Lyme is part of our risk assessment. A school must follow the local authority educational visits procedure. There is a whole booklet, training courses, county forms to fill in validate insurance and it all mentions both of these, so WorrySign you are not telling teachers anything they don't already know.

You have also been very unlucky if all the school you have come across have "only intermittent evidence of the passion and professionalism". I can assure you in all the schools I've come into contact with in various LAs over the last 25 + years I have not found it to be the case.

What 'risk assessment' do parents do when they take their children in a park or forest?
Do you all carry anti-bac hand gel at all times?
Do you only visit attractions that have toilets? Really?

I am finding all this really quite sad.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 18:21:44

I'm finding it sad and alarming that so many mum's would need a note from teacher before they include a drink in a packed lunch for a day trip out of school

spanieleyes Sun 17-Nov-13 18:22:14

I have to fill in a 4 page risk assessment to walk from the school to the church, which is out of the school gate, cross at the crossing, walk along the path, cross at the next crossing and we're there! You can imagine the risk assessment for anything else!

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 18:22:14

mums

NewNameforNewTerm Sun 17-Nov-13 18:25:14

If the school has done a risk assessment someone will have visited the site, you can't do one without a visit. My poor family get dragged to which ever trip venue I'm planning as I wander around with a notebook looking for hazards, where toilets are, sketching maps and checking distances!

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 18:30:23

But mrz the teachers supposed to be able to think of every thing, do every thing and know everything even when the parents can't make one common sense decision wink

starrystarryknut Sun 17-Nov-13 18:36:38

OP do you have the slightest idea about all the forms EVERY teacher has to fill in for any kind of school activity? A risk assessment is mandatory. I have to fill out a risk assessment form for something as innocuous as assisting a school in putting on a small concert (e.g. are you using any electronic equipment? where are the sockets? who may lift the music stands? how heavy is the box of sheet music? how many audience vs number of loos?... etc ad infinitum). The idea that a school could take a class of children on a day trip to the woods without filling out forms to within an inch of their life - TO PROTECT THEMSELVES from litigation - is just ridiculous.

indyandlara Sun 17-Nov-13 18:56:50

We have to assess potential risk when teaching ceilidh dancing... A day in the forest would generate an enormous amount of paperwork!

mammadiggingdeep Sun 17-Nov-13 18:57:35

Another one here thinking is this for real??

Why on earth would the teachers lie to you? Why didn't you put a drink in her lunch box?? We're you REALLY that worried about your child getting cold in November? Especially this mild November we're experiencing.

I find it very, very hard to believe their wasn't any kind if facilities available. I'd love to speak to the teachers involved- I think their story would be slightly different.

Op do you realise the enormous sense of responsibility teachers feel at taking children out in trips? Do you think teachers are ok with children being cold, thirsty and desperate for the loo?? Have you had previous beef with this school??

I take children in my class on the tube and all over London on a regular basis. My heart is in my mouth the whole time we're out. I'm trying to foresee any issues or problems before they occur and constantly checking numbers etc. I can honestly say that I assess possible risks and hazards much more than I would when out with my own 2 children.

Did your dd enjoy the day? What did she learn? You say you normally take her to the woods- what did she experience that was new do you think? I'm sure she loved sitting on little stools, eating lunch with her friends. Maybe the good outweighs the bad.

SatinSandals Sun 17-Nov-13 19:05:25

The risk assessment starts with getting on the coach-'possible danger tripping on the steps-member of staff to stand by the door and help them up the steps' and so it goes on..............
I think you should see how the French manage it. I have been in a queue for a chair lift on the nursery slope when a whole class of 3/4 yr olds came along and the teacher handed us each a child to sit next to on the lift and get them on and off. They are a lot more laid back. (no water bottles in sight)

WorrySighWorrySigh Sun 17-Nov-13 19:08:20

NewNameforNewTerm my comment about Weill's was because a PP had expressed surprise at the hygiene concerns of a Woodland Trust ranger.

My DCs' primary and secondary schools have been in and out of special measures like they caught on the door handle. Unfortunately I dont think that this clustering of poor schools is uncommon. Perhaps it is a deliberate ploy at Govt level. Once you are used to a really rubbish primary school, why waste a good secondary school on you!

Perhaps this makes me a little more cynical on threads such as this. And less willing to automatically assume the school is right.

CarolineKnappShappey Sun 17-Nov-13 19:23:20

i've just read the original thread.
Here are two sisters getting the knickers in a twist about this. It's all a bit bonkers.

Please tell us what other things you hate about this school. It's bound to be Amusing for Sunday night.

Feenie Sun 17-Nov-13 19:24:15

Perhaps this makes me a little more cynical on threads such as this. And less willing to automatically assume the school is right.

Er....yes, we had noticed, WorrySigh grin

ClayDavis Sun 17-Nov-13 19:28:58

Tbf if they don't allow drinks in lunch boxes and normally take a water bottle I wouldn't assume that I needed to include a drink in the packed lunch unless told. I would have checked whether they were taking the water bottles though.

The rest of the complaints are a bit ridiculous though and wouldn't bother me at all.

SatinSandals Sun 17-Nov-13 19:33:40

The moral of the story is always send a child on a school trip with more than one drink and tell them to ask a helper if they are really thirsty.

stargirl1701 Sun 17-Nov-13 19:34:38

In my previous school, we had a parent who behaved in a similar vein. P1 trip to the theatre. Bus pick up at school and drop off at the theatre.

Parent tails the coach in her car and then phones the school to report the driver was doing 72mph. HT is stunned to get the call. grin Parent feels she gets nowhere with HT so calls the coach company. They laugh. A lot. Parent phone the POLICE!!!

The trip was lovely. A really gentle Christmas production with 'snow' falling from the ceiling at the end. The children were entranced.

This was at least 10 years and it still makes me chortle!

stargirl, no way shock

At least the parent cared for their child unlike all us uncaring parents who'd have our children fend for themselves in the woods in the winter, letting them fend of wolves and Jack Frost.

<sigh>

ChippingInLovesAutumn Sun 17-Nov-13 19:36:34

I hope the OP is an un der the br idge dwe ller... the fact that she might be 'real' is actually quite scary.

I love kids, but you could NOT pay me enough to be a teacher these days... and that's without parents like the OP.

But I'm glad she wrote the OP - it has been informative & hilarious grin

Chipping, sadly I think this is quite real...

FrauMoose Sun 17-Nov-13 19:38:17

Well, it has taught me a new word....

LightastheBreeze Sun 17-Nov-13 19:39:46

Yes it has been hilarious. I just realised I had ventured into Primary Education. I thought I was in AIBU. grin

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 19:40:30

I suspect the OP has had another name change

ChippingInLovesAutumn Sun 17-Nov-13 19:41:41

PD - the good news is, it's only a month until the next lot of holidays!! Which would need to be much longer & have the promise of lots of gin & chocolate to get me through until then!! God help us.

stargirl1701 Sun 17-Nov-13 19:43:12

Ha! I'm leading Outdoor Learning at school after my return from mat leave. I take children in a wooded area 2 days a week! grin Approx 180 kids in 2 days! grin

And, there are no toilets. grin We are only a 10 min walk to school though.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Sun 17-Nov-13 19:44:08

Well, she can name change as often as she likes.

but I'll hunt her down and batter her with the 'Risk Assessment Guide' if she starts another bloody thread about this

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 19:50:14

grin

mammadiggingdeep Sun 17-Nov-13 19:52:19

I'd love to be a fly on the wall whilst her dd goes on the year 6 journey! Good grief...5 whole days of risks and hazards to moan about "they had toast every morning and the milk on the cereal was COLD"

grin

LightastheBreeze Sun 17-Nov-13 19:57:56

and try getting an 11 year old to take a coat grin

mammadiggingdeep Sun 17-Nov-13 20:07:13

Lol.....haha!!!!

What's the chances of op's offer of help on any future trips being accepted? grin

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 20:07:51

They certainly don't get better with age ...hmm I took 50 kids for a week on the Isle of Wight. On the last day I said "make sure you put your cases on the coach" which to be fair they all did, unfortunately one child hadn't put his clothes in the case grin (because I hadn't told him to.

Procrastreation Sun 17-Nov-13 20:10:51

hmm

princess.

sorry.

The no drinks is bad luck (but I don't believe it - they would have had drinks with lunch - in which case that is sufficient for anything short of a marathon).

The rest: I presume you're not enrolling for scouts of Duke of Edinburgh then...?

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 20:12:46

worrysigh I wasn't expressing surprise at the Woodland ranger's hygiene concerns. My point was that any trip involving such organisations (as this trip would appear to have been) will have had Health and Safety guidelines coming out of its ears, if their issues about clean hands for snacks were anything to go by.

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 20:12:57

mrz good grief grin

mammadiggingdeep Sun 17-Nov-13 20:14:05

That's brilliant.

Didn't you plan for just that eventuality in your risk assessment though?

The coach broke down in a trip with year 5 once. I was leading the trip...only in my 2nd or 3rd year of teaching. Did a good job of getting all kids and adults up the bank in the side of the road. Phones the school to let them know ROTC etc.

Kept 40 fidgety kids sat down for 40 minutes until another coach came.

On return to school one parent openly bollocked me as I came down the steps of the coach. I was do tired and stressed I think I was probably a bit unprofessional and rude back. Some patents have no clue about what a teacher has to contend with....

mammadiggingdeep Sun 17-Nov-13 20:15:05

Sorry for typos... Blooming phone

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 20:15:43

fortunately I checked the rooms to make sure nothing was left behind grin if the OP had been male I would have guessed at identity

Ah, mrz, I bet your failed in your responsibility for doing a risk assessment for 'failed to put clothes in bad'. Tsk, tsp.
grin

You couldn't make it up...

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 20:22:37

Just shock and grin

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 20:23:38

I had a couple of Year 6 turn out for a PGL climbing wall activity in flipflops (mid-October as well).
Mrs clam: Where are your trainers? (they'd been told countless times of the dress-code for climbing)
Dozy kids: Er..... we packed them." (last day of trip)
Mrs clam: Well, go and unpack them. Where are your suitcases?
Dozy kids turn and point to pile of 60 identical-looking un-named suitcases piled under staircase ready for coach.

Surprising how many parents pack their child's case for them, with the result that some kids have no idea what's in there. So we had one child swearing blind they had no waterproofs with them. Eventually we found them stuffed in an outside pocket of the case. "Oh, my mum must have put them there."

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 20:27:16

9 hours on a ferry and bus later and mum shouted at me as I handed her a bin liner full of his clothes apparently I should have packed

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 20:29:22

There's just no hope is there grin

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 20:36:18

There's just no hope is there grin

For every parent like this, there's at least a baker's dozen of us out here just so grateful for all that the schools and teachers do.

Maybe the moral of this thread is that we should remember to thank teachers more - I know I don't always remember. So to all teachers - thank you - you are amazing!

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 20:40:44

Out of 60 kids on a trip, you're lucky if you get half a dozen who say thank you at the end of it.

nocheeseinhouse Sun 17-Nov-13 20:43:28

Learning to outdoor pee is a life skill. What possible reason can you have for never having had to teach this to your child prior to getting to school?

I had to pee mid walk in the woods today. (TMI) A duck may have seen my 'foo' (?!) what a horror.

I would be overjoyed if my child's school did a trip like this, and my child is just as precious as yours.

Abra1d Sun 17-Nov-13 20:45:42

OP, YABU.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 20:49:30

<wonders if OP is lost in the woods still looking for a ranger to quiz. Or for somewhere private to pee>

HowManyDaysUntilChristmas Sun 17-Nov-13 20:52:33

But did she remember to take a drink, clam, no one told her to?

Gileswithachainsaw Sun 17-Nov-13 20:53:59

grin

teacherwith2kids Sun 17-Nov-13 20:56:02

Mrz, PGL, early spring. Freezing. Snow. Had been like that for weeks.

Full clothes list, parents' meeting, whole thing. Affluent school. Child turns up for the first activity - T-shirt and thin waterproofs, ripped jeans. We say 'no, go back and put lots of layers on'. Child comes back with several T shirts on yop of each other. We say 'no, lots of layers of WARM clothes'. Turns out he hasn't brought any jumpers at all, and that was his only pair of long trousers, others were shorts.

Why didn't he bring any?

'I don't really have jumpers. At home if it's cold I don't go out and my parents drive me everywhere. They didn't think we'd really go outside if it was at all cold'.

Several adult leaders got very, very cold as they lent him all THEIR warm clothes each day....

Parents cross, to the point of swearing at staff, because we took their child outside when it was cold.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 20:56:23

grin

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 20:58:33

Sorry teacher that grin was to howmanydays.

Although you might qualify for one too. Or a shock perhaps.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 20:58:34

[doesn't know whether to laugh or cry]

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 20:59:51

I can well believe it.

teacherwith2kids Sun 17-Nov-13 21:02:16

(Said parents did also turn up nearly 2 hours after we returned, because 'the pick up time wasn't convenient for our work'. After a residential trip in icy weather with nigh on 100 kids, returning on the last day of term, we weren't best pleased even BEFORE they started swearing at us....)

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 21:03:59

I don't think the OP would pee in a glorified shed

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 21:12:27

mrz - of course not. It would be preferable to pee behind a tree. grin

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 21:16:08

unless there is a stranger staring at her foo

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 21:16:28

As long as there are no dodgy types about to sneak a peek at her foo.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 21:17:16

GMTA
grin

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 21:17:26

x-post! grin

SatinSandals Sun 17-Nov-13 21:17:49

I have known children turn up at school in thick snow without adequate clothing because they came by car and assumed they wouldn't go out, therefore when everyone went out, adults included, they were crying with cold and unable to enjoy it.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 21:18:42

You're a few seconds ahead of me mrz. I take it you're not trying to watch 'I'm a Celebrity' at the same time!

mammadiggingdeep Sun 17-Nov-13 21:19:21

Good job we love our jobs...I always say it'd be the perfect job if we only had to deal with the kiddies smile

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 21:21:05

But haven't we had people on here complaining about schools not taking their kids out to play in the snow with everyone else because they weren't dressed properly and were "being penalised" and "made to miss out."

[despairs]

spanieleyes Sun 17-Nov-13 21:21:18

And we've had children turn up in unsuitable clothing ( think canvas shoes and no coat) for the snow and then have parents complain when their child has had to stay in at break because everyone else has been allowed out to play and their child hasn't. ( Apparently we should keep a complete store of spare clothes and shoes in all sizes just in case!)

spanieleyes Sun 17-Nov-13 21:21:51

X post!!

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 21:23:01

Just goes to show it's not that uncommon.

FrauMoose Sun 17-Nov-13 21:25:33

'A duck may have seen my 'foo''

Sometimes I love Mumsnet.

mrz Sun 17-Nov-13 21:27:53

Little Rabbit Foo Foo hopping through the forest

Katekate77 Sun 17-Nov-13 21:43:48

Emma16

I would not be happy if my children went walking for 5 hours without a drink. It's basic human needs! If she forgot her drink, the teachers should have spare and ensure they're hydrated surely? I would not be happy that a teacher lied to me. But I would be FUCKING FUMING if my child had been forced to pull her pants down in a public park....unlikely there is a sex offender lurking in the woods I know but the world we live in is unfortunately horrible!!

I do agree that the trip sounded awesome in general and it was up to you to dress her properly (which you did) but I am really shocked that you've had all these comments about you over reacting about the other stuff. Get your ass to the school and complain, you sound like a great mum! smile

mammadiggingdeep Sun 17-Nov-13 21:49:01

Op...is your sister's name Kate??

grin

mammadiggingdeep Sun 17-Nov-13 21:51:33

Kate...
Had been forced??? Where does it say that she was forced to pee behind a tree? In the other thread op says thee were loo's. they were obviously too far away from them. So...they quickly let her go behind a tree. If it was my daughter and it was go behind a tree or wet herself I know what is prefer.

Handbagsonnhold Sun 17-Nov-13 21:52:25

"Forced to pull her pants down"

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 21:53:00

Kate, the teacher did not lie to her. She was vague; it was some other woman the OP knew, who happened also to be a teacher, who said she'd been there before and there were facilities. Where's the lie?

Twirlychair Sun 17-Nov-13 21:54:48

Pmsl @"forced to pull her pants down"

Pooka Sun 17-Nov-13 21:56:15

A sex offender lurking in the woods on the off chance?

You're absolutely right - unlikely in the extreme.

The op didn't raise potential for random sex offenders as an issue. She was more concerned about the "stranger" (I.e. school employee) catching a foo-y glimpse. She didn't mention the forcing of pants either. But don't let that stop you frothing.

Would it have been better to let the child wet herself given they were probably some distance from the nearest loos? It being a woodland with a glorified shed with loos probably near the carpark/activity centre.

Katekate77 Sun 17-Nov-13 22:04:18

Lol I meant forced to do a wee outside because she needed to go. Not forced literally! Figure of speech.

I'm not her sister, I'm an only child. I have twin girls and I was just saying I would feel the same as she's feeling.

Ive done a wee in the woods lots of times (and a poo once when I was very poorly and in the middle of nowhere) but it is actually a criminal offence.

Gosh mumsnet is nasty sometimes sad

Floggingmolly Sun 17-Nov-13 22:06:47

It's a criminal offence to wee in the woods? shock

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 22:06:58

A criminal offence?? Seriously? hmm

Katekate77 Sun 17-Nov-13 22:08:49

Yeah my hubby said so, so I googled it. I'm a criminal smile

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 22:11:15

In public, maybe. But I'm not sure behind a tree in a wood counts as public.

Katekate77 Sun 17-Nov-13 22:14:43

I don't think many people get arrested for it, but technically if a police officer caught you, and someone was offended by you doing your wee/poo, he could arrest you.

Just to clarify, I'm not a criminal, but I've done lots of wees in the woods. And one poo, as you know.

Handbagsonnhold Sun 17-Nov-13 22:15:26

I must remember that next time I'm out with dd....must make her cross her legs until we get to 'glorified sheds' wouldn't want my 3 yr old arrested hmm

mammadiggingdeep Sun 17-Nov-13 22:15:33

Especially not a 5 year old caught short on a school trip.

Blimey...did the teacher factor in time in a cop shop in case a passing policeman decided to cart them all off for showing their 'foo foo's' in public?

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 22:17:00

God, I hope that was on the risk assessment! Risk of getting half the class arrested.

SatinSandals Sun 17-Nov-13 22:17:10

If you go walking for the entire day, as we do, you are most likely going to need to find a tree.

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 22:18:15

Aha! So that's the OP's question answered! Has the school trip broke(n) any regulations/laws?
Clearly yes!

mammadiggingdeep Sun 17-Nov-13 22:18:51

Think they should show all trainee teachers this thread.....

nocheeseinhouse Sun 17-Nov-13 22:19:37

lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/docs/Legal_Oddities.pdf "there is no generally applicable offense of urinating in public."

Peeing in the woods is a NORMAL thing to do. Having not spent enough time outdoors with your daughter that she's never done it is really sad. Having such a warped view of normal activities is just strange...

clam Sun 17-Nov-13 22:20:14

Nah. They'd all walk out.

Handbagsonnhold Sun 17-Nov-13 22:20:16

Goodness yes....tittle of post answered and confirmed....

HowManyDaysUntilChristmas Sun 17-Nov-13 22:21:17

That's it, no more school trips for me, just in case I can't get them to the toilet in time when they are busting, so we have go behind a bush and I could get us all arrested. Do you think that will wash with my head teacher and all the parents as an excuse to stay in my warm dry classroom for ever?

Handbagsonnhold Sun 17-Nov-13 22:21:24

'Title' ..... sorry got a little excited re pending convictions

nocheeseinhouse Sun 17-Nov-13 22:21:37

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18072905 (I should go and do something better.)

mammadiggingdeep Sun 17-Nov-13 22:22:56

Or never want to bother taking their classes on trips...which would be a shame....would prepare them for the mums a d dads they might encounter during their career though!

ClayDavis Sun 17-Nov-13 22:35:37

Obviously the teacher should have taken some of these with her. Or maybe 90 of these.

Katekate77 Sun 17-Nov-13 22:46:50

This is all very nasty and sarcastic. When you all jumped on me the first time I asked hubby what he would think in this situation and he said "it's illegal isn't it". We both agreed that it is ridiculous. I'm not saying that the school have broken the law...I just wanted to share my random discovery to lighten the mood.

My twins are only 7 months old and my first children so they've not spent much time outside or had a woodland pee (yet). Maybe I'm a bit naive and I will 'toughen up' by the time they start going on trips. (Cue- yes Kate, you are naive) confused

DoubleLifeIsALifeOfSorts Sun 17-Nov-13 22:49:51

Oh dear, this is a rather extreme thread isn't it?

ClayDavis Sun 17-Nov-13 22:54:53

grin. You wait.

Despite many warnings and much cajoling to have a wee before you go or to go because you're passing a toilet, at the point you are furthest away from any toilet you will be interrupted by 'Muuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeee I neeed a weeeee. Noooowww'. IME this will usually be followed by the other twin decoding they need to go too. And no, they won't wait.

ClayDavis Sun 17-Nov-13 22:55:37

decoding? That should be deciding.

nocheeseinhouse Sun 17-Nov-13 22:58:59

Well... at 7 months, your kids probably pee all over the place!

But, no, a discrete pee away from others is not illegal.

I think the OP sounds precious. And this idea of constantly drinking is a fallacy anyway, she won't become a prune after 5 hours, especially as there will have been fluid in her food.

I think it would be a shame if all the normal parent's kids lost the chance of trips like this in the future because the OP gets the school's back up about this one.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 23:00:20

Hmm. I'm not sure a stranger pulling down the OP's pants and then producing a pink "SheWee" would have helped the situation, ClayDavis. grin

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 23:01:30

Nor would it have helped the situation had the same been done to the OP's daughter!

HowManyDaysUntilChristmas Sun 17-Nov-13 23:02:33

grin

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 23:03:07

Mind you, you can attach an extra length pipe to the Shewee funnel if you like extreme sports. grin

cory Sun 17-Nov-13 23:03:22

Serious question: why would you get a view of a child's genitals just because you are supervising them having a wee in the woods? Surely the teacher would be standing up and the child crouching down? I have been on many trips in the great outdoors with various children, and many trips behind bushes or down crevices: they have never involved my lying flat on the ground to peer up other people's genitals. And if you are not prepared to go to that trouble, I am afraid you simply won't get much of a view at all.

ClayDavis Sun 17-Nov-13 23:06:49

grin

What if the school insisted they all wore a pair of these? Then there would be no need for the pulling down of pants. Either the OP's or her daughter's.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 23:09:22

ClayDavis. I think you are on to something there. Maybe have the Shewees already attached.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 23:11:31

They'd certainly give the boys a run for their money. It would be a great opportunity for the girls to win the "who can pee the furthest" competition.

ClayDavis Sun 17-Nov-13 23:12:46

I don't think they've thought of that rabbitstew. Gap in the market maybe? They also only seem to come in adult size 6 and up. Perhaps smaller sizes marketed at primary schools for outdoor trips.

rabbitstew Sun 17-Nov-13 23:14:12

grin

LightastheBreeze Sun 17-Nov-13 23:18:08

I can't understand either the fuss with the constant supply of drink children seem to need nowadays. i survived quite well at school and didn't have to carry a water bottle with me constantly and used to go out playing for hours without a water bottle.
I don't think it crossed my mums mind if I was hydrated or not.

nocheeseinhouse Sun 17-Nov-13 23:27:39

I think people forget about homeostasis. If she was dehydrated, she wouldn't have needed to pee and display her 'foo'.

jenn1234 Sun 17-Nov-13 23:30:26

hi, just a thought , my DD feels the cold and easily goes blue yet from experience if I wrap her up well she tends to over heat when active
and dehydrates quickly causing head aches, maybe worth mentioning to teachers to keep an extra eye on her for future trips.

eddiemairswife Sun 17-Nov-13 23:32:00

I agree about the constant worrying about access to water. We live in the UK not the Sahara. It really irritates me that even adults seem to be unable to function without carrying drinks everywhere,

spanieleyes Mon 18-Nov-13 03:47:56

it would probably be illegal for your husband to run around the woods waving parts of his anatomy at all and sundry but it is not illegal for a five year old to have a wee behind a bush!

hoboken Mon 18-Nov-13 04:18:20

I remember a 36 page risk assessment form when taking thirty 15 year olds on a 20 mile coach trip to a talk at a university. There is no way this trip would not have been risk-assessed.

Absolutely yes to an outdoors day, sounds great, no problem with it being November. I can't explain the drinks issue - an oversight perhaps. Not good so just request that in future teachers must ensure that water bottles are taken on the trip.

I would not worry one jot if a CRB-checked teacher saw my child's bottom. If your daughter had any difficulties in the lavatory at school or injured herself, would you like her to be left in discomfort or suffering in case anyone saw something you think they should not?

I think you are over-reacting. If, however, you are that unhappy perhaps you could look at other schools consider home educating.

hoboken Mon 18-Nov-13 04:20:28

'or consider home educating'

SatinSandals Mon 18-Nov-13 07:16:08

When I was young and you just went off in the morning, and came back for meals, you didn't think of taking drinks or the proximity of toilets. You just went, and found a tree if you couldn't last out. Now children don't get this freedom and it is sad that when schools do it , with a risk assessment that reads like War and Peace, that it then gets criticised because the parent wasn't told specifically which drinks to pack where,and the countryside isn't full of public toilets. If you go fell walking, or similar, you are not going to come across a loo the entire day. Most activities in the countryside, sailing, potholing, rock climbing etc are not going to have any access to toilets.

WorrySighWorrySigh Mon 18-Nov-13 07:32:22

But you arent going to take a group of 5 year olds sailing, potholing, rock climbing. IMO at that age a day spent in the woods but close to facilities and shelter would be quite adventurous enough. It is different when children are a couple of years older and better able to tell adults if there is a problem.

SatinSandals Mon 18-Nov-13 07:36:17

It will only be a few years before they do. I would have thought a 5 yr old could say they are thirsty!

rabbitstew Mon 18-Nov-13 07:53:24

SatinSandals - in that respect, it doesn't matter what you think, it's the reality that matters. My 5-year old ds would not have said if he was thirsty. He would also not have said he needed the loo, he would have wet himself instead, if toilet breaks had not been provided at appropriate times. Mind you, the teachers were aware he had an issue with expressing his needs to them at that age, so they would have, I hope, kept a close eye on him because they had reason to in his specific case. Which leads me to wonder how the OP's dd managed to build up the courage to ask for the loo, but not to ask for a drink. Sounds like she probably could have asked for a drink if she'd wanted to.

This thread really has made it hit home how far removed from nature people have become. bbc How to reconnect with nature

Abra1d Mon 18-Nov-13 08:07:19

I know! I loved my children being outdoors for a whole day when they were little.

Charotte31 Mon 18-Nov-13 08:09:25

Op I would feel the same as you. 5 is very young to be out in the cold all day. And taking them somewhere with no loo is awful! I would speak to the head.

mammadiggingdeep Mon 18-Nov-13 08:12:02

Charlotte....they had toilets just not at every 5 paces. It's a wood.

Gileswithachainsaw Mon 18-Nov-13 08:17:24

Ofgs I can't believe people think five year olds are too young/immature etc for "this kinda thing"

No wonder kids the days never do anything and sit playing games all day on the x box. It's a wood. Not crocodile infested waters. There are wonderful inventions called coats hats and gloves. Use them.

Walking is good for them. Why do people panic about having to actually walk outside.
Talk about precious.

mammadiggingdeep Mon 18-Nov-13 08:24:55

Precious is an understatement!

I've been thinking- I just don't think that a school would take off for a trip without the children's water bottles if these were the ONLY drinks available. I would bet that they were supposed to have drinks in their lunchbox. As somebody mentioned up thread, if teachers had known she didn't have a drink, in my experience they would either share theirs (I've shared my sandwiches on trips more than once) or had a spare drink or two on them. This story just doesn't make total sense. As I said upthread yesterday, I would just love to hear this incident from the teachers perspective.

If the op doesn't trust the teachers at her child's school can I suggest that she either a) moves schools or b) keeps her child off of school trips

wakemeupnow Mon 18-Nov-13 08:29:42

Quite unbelievable...

SatinSandals Mon 18-Nov-13 08:30:15

I think I am just on a different wavelength to a lot of people. We started early and carried ours in slings up hills, when they were too young for backpacks. It carried on from there, whole days at the bottom of crags rock climbing etc without any sign of civilisation. I suppose if you never go more than half a mile from a car park you do think it illegal or dangerous to wee behind a tree and can't contemplate that you can't pop into a shop if you run out of drink you will have problems when your child experiences it. Personally, I think it a good thing they do and a bit of discomfort isn't life threatening!

Gileswithachainsaw Mon 18-Nov-13 08:32:26

I love how it's always the teachers fault when parents are to stupid to even cope with the basics. Everyone was in the same boat fir heavens sake. It would have been the first trip for many parents. Still they managed to figure out how to dress their child and pack a lunch.

Seriously what could have happened. Teachers either remove a drink they don't need or child had two drinks. What's the big deal. I don't know why schools even bother tbh. My dd would have loved that. Instead of blaming teachers why can't parents prepare their children. Tell them to ask if they need anything. The teachers will be aware of the kids who struggle to communicate and would check on them but the rest of the kids should be able to ask surely? She managed to ask for a wee, why couldn't she ask her friend or teacher for a sip of drink??!!

SatinSandals Mon 18-Nov-13 08:34:14

I think that teachers know that their place is in the wrong!

Gileswithachainsaw Mon 18-Nov-13 08:42:17

Certainly by now they do. I can't imagine how exhausting it must be for teachers to have to write letters staring the bloody obvious. Even the kids would know most the time. To have to write "please put drinks in with lunch and make sure that they have a coat" in every sodding letter and stil have some idiot send their kid in a t shirt, shorts and sandals despite being told they are hiking in the woods.

a bit of discomfort isn't life threatening

I so agree with this. Children are quite tough, 5 year olds don't dehydrate at the drop of a hat, if they are chilly they can get quite warm by running around, if the kind of trip they are on is not particularly their cup of tea they learn in a safe way to deal with adversity. Which is a Good Thing.

I want my children to have a lovely time when they go on school trips and hopefully learn or experience something that they would not in the stuffy classroom - but they are member of a class: different children with different personalities and needs. It is important to learn to manage in different situations, particularly if they are out of their comfort zone.

These 'precious' children grow in to demanding, neurotic adults IME with lots of fears and little confidence or ability to cope when things don't go exactly as they expected them to. I am not talking about the OP or her child specifically btw, but in general this is my experience.

I wish there was a forest school near us grin

Gileswithachainsaw Mon 18-Nov-13 08:50:47

We went on two residential trips at my primary school. One in class 5 and one in class 8. I remember being so excited as soon as I found out about it in reception or yr 1. It involved getting messy and pond dipping and walking round wooded areas. It was fab. We had to sleep in a domitory and everything. hope they risk assessed the sleeping bag on wood floor game

No one carried bottles. No one dropped dead having to walk. And if we got cold then it was out own stupid fault for not putting a jumper on grin

FrauMoose Mon 18-Nov-13 08:51:53

I've lost count of the number of adults who Spouse and I have agreed to meet at some location or other for a good walk into the countryside. And then find we have to scale down/radically our plans because at least one of the adults has turned up inadequate jacket or thin canvas shoes or high heels. Because they think a country walk must mean a stroll down the High Street to a teashop. Or perhaps if they are very daring, a half hour saunter along a well-marked and perfectly level circular path in a patch of land owned by the National Trust (who will have provide sunshine and the gentlest breeze, even though the forecast is for clouds and gusty wind.)

SatinSandals Mon 18-Nov-13 08:57:38

Exactly, FrauMoose, I have had the same. We once had to cancel a walk in the Alps because it came on to rain and people didn't have adequate rain wear!

SatinSandals Mon 18-Nov-13 09:01:26

Exactly, FrauMoose, I have had the same. We once had to cancel a walk in the Alps because it came on to rain and people didn't have adequate rain wear! There was nothing else the leader could have done, she would have been irresponsible to continue, but we were cheesed off by the stupidity of people!

Gileswithachainsaw Mon 18-Nov-13 09:04:53

Jeez. shock

Why pay money to go on these things and yet not even ensure you had walking boots and jumpers etc. And then ruin it for everyone ffs

clam Mon 18-Nov-13 09:08:26

We had this recently too. Our family were all equipped with boots and jackets etc, yet the person whose house we were setting off from (and who therefore presumably had plenty of appropriate gear to choose from) insisted on wearing a blazer and patent loafers. She clearly didn't want to do a "rough" walk.

(I remember one lovely February half term where we stayed at a rather lush country hotel and spa in the middle of fab walks, and we came back after such a walk, all muddy and with caked boots, and the proprietress came running out to wrap us in binliners before entering. She must have thought we would not think to take our boots off and getting rid of most of the "walking debris" grin - We were SO out of place with our technical clothing and brightly coloured gore tex, in between all the tweed and oilskin)

SootikinAndSweep Mon 18-Nov-13 09:37:46

I remember camping with the Guides in the 80s, no hot water or indoor facilities at all, washing up bowls balanced on sticks outside the toilet tent with an inch of cold soapy water in them. Amazingly none of us died.

OP, ignore much of these replies, anyone who's trying to belittle you claiming you're being OTT - well, you're not. You're just being a naturally concerned parent.
Our children are indeed precious, and still quite young to be out on day trips to the woods, and you are entitled to be worried about toilet facilities, refreshment availability and supervision.
I was nervous myself about the thought of my non-swimming 6 year old on a pond dipping trip to the largest and deepest reservoir in the county with only 3 adult supervisors, but I try to remember that primary teachers seem to be in it for the vocation after all, not clockwatching just to pay the bills.. Relinquishing care of your child even over to a professional is hard.
If it wasn't for other family input convincing me, I wouldn't have let my 6 year go on the day trip. Everyone around me was insistent I was being unreasonable. I was determined to keep her home. What changed my mind at the end was my daughter's enthusiasm for the day trip, she was looking forward to it so much I couldn't take that away from her.

Residential trips in primary school, though, I haven't crossed that bridge yet, but I already know that's going to be a toughie for me.

Ignore any vitriol, absolutely nothing unreasonable about being overly concerned.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime Mon 18-Nov-13 10:14:04

good god no wonder people drive like dangerous twats if we live in a society that has so little understanding of risk.

I am so glad I come from a family that appreciates you have to experience the world to know what real danger is. I have completed at international level at a fairly risky sport. you need to experience small risks when young to assess and control in-so-far as possible unavoidable risks throughout your life.

risk is not avoidable. molly coddling and lack of preparedness is.

if you are cold outside in the UK, you are not dressed correctly.

weeing in the woods as a bad thing!!?!! get a grip!

DF competed in a sport internationally where bad assessment of risk can lead to death. he was also the most safety conscious person I have known.

FrauMoose Mon 18-Nov-13 10:17:00

People seem to forget that the whole point of being a parent is to give the skills to be able to cope without you. This means letting others - relatives, carers, friends, teachers - have significant input into your child's life.

It also means that children have to experience, from quite an early age, situations in which they are not held in some sort of everlasting, artificial womb.

Yes, they also need to know that when the going gets tough people will come to hug them and help them. But children need to fall over sometimes, to be cold, hungry and thirsty. Even a bit sad. To make mistakes, so that they can start thinking about what the right answer might be.

"Your aim as a parent is to make yourself redundant" - says my colleague with adult children.
So true.

Allow them to experience the world in small and safe increments, allow them to learn how to do assess risk and teach them how to deal with situations.
Not to protect them from everything which leads to them not being able to deal with anything.

DeWe Mon 18-Nov-13 11:06:53

Ds (year 1) was booked for a school trip out in the open last March. All ready to go, and the day he went they had quite a deep snowfall in the area they were going to.
We got a note to say please don't forget hats/gloves/anything warm they need.
The children all agreed that the best bit of the trip was being outside as the snow fell around them. They'd have been happy with a short coach trip and a load of snow. There was no inside place at all. The picnic in the snow was the most exciting bit apparently! Ds is hoping it snows next trip (which is in June so not much hope of that!)

And if the dc were running around enough to get dehydrated, then at least she wasn't cold.

Someone's probably picked this up, but there was an AIBU a short time ago saying they didn't want to send their dd in reception on a trip which was going to be outside all day because they were cold. Is this the same OP?

clam Mon 18-Nov-13 11:10:30

nivea so you think all those of us who believe the OP is worrying unnecessarily are uncaring/unconcerned parents? How about it's just that we have a healthy regard for allowing our kids to take part in the world without fear or fuss?

If she seriously had an issue about drinks, then surely she should have packed a drink for her to take. We've already heard that there were toilet facilities at the venue, and for any child who was caught short, a caring CRB-checked adult helped her out (all our parent helpers have to be CRB checked as well, or we're not allowed to ask them to help).

No school takes a trip off the premises without a comprehensive risk assessment drawn up (which is a legal requirement and we even have to fill them in for some on-site activities) and all the Outdoor Pursuit providers also have extremely detailed guidelines.

What more do you want, fgs?

clam Mon 18-Nov-13 11:11:51

Yes, dewe. Her sister, I believe.
The OP clearly didn't want her child to go on the trip at all, and now it's happened, she's determined to find fault.

rabbitstew Mon 18-Nov-13 11:34:29

For the last time of pointing out, I hope, schools do NOT all ensure every adult helping on a school trip is CRB checked. There is absolutely not point telling someone that is the case when it IS NOT. Fine to tell them that their child not drinking all day and doing a wee behind a tree is not the end of the world, but don't tell them untruths.

rabbitstew Mon 18-Nov-13 11:36:22

Also it is NOT true that all schools ensure it is only school staff who help take children to the toilet.

SlicedLemon Mon 18-Nov-13 11:45:24

Has the OP come back to this thread at all?? Or is she still disinfecting her DDs welly boots after being in the oh so mucky outdoors?

marmaladeandguitars Mon 18-Nov-13 11:47:24

Wish DD's school would take her class out to the woods for 5 hours, she'd love it.

Surely, on trips, the school sends a letter which includes the reminder that packed lunches should be disposable? So no lunchboxes, tupperware, reusable bottles, stuff that you don't want to get lost on the coach etc? I always put DD's in a paper bag with one of those little bottles of water they do for kids.

OP, you are being very precious. I doubt your child was drinkless, and if she was, you'll have to put it down to your own misunderstanding of what constitutes lunch on a school trip. Also, highly doubt anyone was perving on your child, regardless of where she pees

clam Mon 18-Nov-13 11:58:05

rabbitstew read what I wrote: "all OUR parent helpers" are CRB checked. There is a list in our school office and we have to check it before we're allowed to ask parents to help. I'm sorry if that's not the case in schools you know, but it IS the case in mine.

clam Mon 18-Nov-13 12:00:16

Also it is NOT true that all schools ensure it is only school staff who help take children to the toilet. I didn't say that either.

MrsDavidBowie Mon 18-Nov-13 12:07:52

I want another parent in the class to come on here and give us their interpretation of events grin

mammadiggingdeep Mon 18-Nov-13 12:13:04

Shares in Nivea....there's a difference between precious (all our children are precious) and precious precious. You know what the posters mean.

There's also a difference between being a concerned parent and looking for fault (which is not there) in professionals trying to educate your child.

Gileswithachainsaw Mon 18-Nov-13 12:14:06

They probably are busy lunching the op after the school refused to do any more trips. grin

Gileswithachainsaw Mon 18-Nov-13 12:14:23

Lynching

rabbitstew Mon 18-Nov-13 12:18:15

But clam, you said, "and for any child who was caught short, a caring CRB-checked adult helped her out ." I must have missed the OP saying that her child did a pee with a caring, CRB-checked adult helper and therefore thought that was you making an assumption. My apologies if actually, the OP thinks the person who helped her child pee was caring and CRB checked!

rabbitstew Mon 18-Nov-13 12:19:39

Mind you, I really don't see how the OP could have known that all 90 children had a caring, CRB checked person to help them pee...

rabbitstew Mon 18-Nov-13 12:20:29

Lunching the OP would be more amusing.

rabbitstew Mon 18-Nov-13 12:20:44

Or launching her.

Gileswithachainsaw Mon 18-Nov-13 12:24:54

grin