Teachers do not adhere to Statemented 1 to 1 support, do not believe in sub-levels, make APP assessments up....How much of what parents are told by schools about teaching is a box ticking exercise?

(1003 Posts)
Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 14:05:51

Following on from this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1859219-Im-a-teacher-and-happy-to-answer-any-questions

and this:
community.tes.co.uk/tes_primary/f/36/t/381051.aspx?pi2132219857=1

I realised I was incredibly gullible when my DC first started school. What exactly should we believe concerning what the teachers tell us, how much is a PR job to cover up the ugly truth?

MiaowTheCat Tue 24-Sep-13 19:02:41

Blimey that's one very very old TES thread... anyone would think you went out of your way to seek it out and stir up some trouble.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 19:06:56

No. Just have a long memory, the latest thread brought it all back. Essentially I am looking for answers...been along long time pondering this.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 19:07:59

Unless you think the TES thread is no longer relevant? Have things changed?

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 19:19:15

^and the last post (of a very long thread) was this year.

mrz Tue 24-Sep-13 19:19:28

are you writing an article?

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 19:20:30

No. I would just like to reconcile things for my own peace of mind.

mrz Tue 24-Sep-13 19:23:44

then perhaps you should ask the question of the school/s your child/children attend

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 19:29:19

Thing is I want some sense of scale concerning the issue(s).

My school is just one school. I'm pretty certain they have been guilty of glossing over a few things.

Just trying to ascertain how representative my experiences are....whether there is something intrinsic within the education system that encourages schools to act like this. Whether most schools do act like this or whether it is a rare occurrence.

It may affect the way I vote, the way I view research and statistics. What policies to support or not...

mrz Tue 24-Sep-13 19:36:47

and you think you will get a representative picture from MN? hmm

Tinlegs Tue 24-Sep-13 19:40:18

PR - they cover up a lot of issues - it is their job! wink

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 19:40:46

No but I would get a picture.

Realistically a school / teacher would never actually admit this stuff to a parent would they?

PurpleGirly Tue 24-Sep-13 19:40:57

What you have in both of those threads are snapshots of a small minority of a profession. The schools I have worked in all follow APP assessment criteria, never making it up and work off sub levels to check progress. Have never yet met a pupil with 1:1 who does not get allocated hours.

I have been teaching at high school level for 15 years.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 19:41:53

Thank-you Purple. Any more?

Wellthen Tue 24-Sep-13 19:43:37

Ugly truth? Like what for example?

Just home ed for god's sake.

WorriedMouse Tue 24-Sep-13 19:44:44

As a teacher I will try to address the questions you've asked:
Sometimes I use my professional judgement and ask the TA to work with another group of children who are action or action + who have no TA support. I will always ensure that the statemented child is supported and has appropriate work. In the right circumstances, I believe that the child with the statement needs some breathing space from constant adult support and it's useful for them to try to work independently. There are some children however I would never leave alone. It depends on the child.

I don't know what you mean by 'believe' in sublevels. I teach a SATs year group and I know that they exist and know them inside out. I can give a sublevel for any child in my core subject classes.

I never make APP judgements up. It takes hours of time collating and evidencing for each child in the class. If done properly it cannot be made up. If you think they are making up judgements ask to see the evidence to support their claims. They should at least have marked a piece of work in a book as evidence of a level or should have a folder of evidence.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 19:45:05

Why should I have to home ed? We pay taxes for a State Education.

GetStuffezd Tue 24-Sep-13 19:47:13

God I love that we don't do APP!
Not sure what the point of the thread is. What ugly truths in particular are you most concerned about?

hazeyjane Tue 24-Sep-13 19:47:58

Jesus, I wish I hadn't looked at the TES link, how fucking depressing.

WorriedMouse, if a child is statemented for a full time 1-1, surely their TA shouldn't be used to support other children?

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 19:51:09

Thank you Worried. How do you reconcile your professional judgement overriding the judgement of those that contributed towards writing the Statement?(which is legally binding).

I should have said believe in using sub-levels or that it was possible to be entirely objective concerning sub - levelling and how well you can represent a child's attainment in this way.

How can you tell whether a teacher makes up APP judgements? For Speaking and Listening for example or aural work.

PurpleGirly Tue 24-Sep-13 19:51:23

If the teacher is working with that pupil they are still getting 1:1, the TA will be directed elsewhere in the class.

mrz Tue 24-Sep-13 19:51:55

The TES thread was intended as tongue in cheek not to be taken seriously

PurpleGirly Tue 24-Sep-13 19:52:31

Before sub levels were popular we used to say low/mid/high Level 5 etc when moderating work.

PurpleGirly Tue 24-Sep-13 19:53:36

Sorry sent before I meant to ...

So when setting pupils we have always looked at the range of a level.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 19:54:03

mrz Pretty long thread for a joke. Some sounded serious.

GetStuffezd Tue 24-Sep-13 19:54:49

I know there have been arguments about the 1:1 issue recently, but I totally agree with WM's post about using professional judgement as to whether a child should tackle something independently, while (obviously) being monitored and given appropriate work.

Particularly in year 6, one of the things we think about is transition and the ability to tackle tasks alone. Of course, there are children who quite simply need 1:1 full time supervision, but IMO there are certainly statemented children who benefit from some time to approach a task on their own.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 19:55:20

Purple that is not what is happening everywhere, if you read the MN thread in full...

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 19:57:08

GetStuffezed If support has changed shouldn't the Statement be changed to reflect this? Especially if the change in support has going on for some years. Are parents informed?

GetStuffezd Tue 24-Sep-13 19:57:27

And actually, I believe that being observed from a distance IS an effective form of support for a child, as and when needed.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 19:58:05

Is the TA observing or helping others?

WorriedMouse Tue 24-Sep-13 19:58:35

I'm not saying that it's every day or even every week but occasionally, in the right circumstances, I believe some children should be able to work independently of an adult. Many of my statemented children have IEP targets to rely less on adult support.

Also, I work with a different group each lesson, and when I work with the statemented child's group I may ask the TA to support another group. The child is being supported, guided and assessed by me and I think it's unfair to leave the other 26 children unattended while the 4 I'm working with have me and a TA.

Saying that there are some circumstances where I would never want the TA to leave a child's side.

GetStuffezd Tue 24-Sep-13 19:58:57

There are statement reviews where the outcome may be that support changes, but if I'm working with a statemented child and think "hang on, he's really got this" I think it's entirely the right thing to say "Right, X, I'm off to see how these others are doing - reckon you could get to number 3 by the time I get back?"

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 19:59:21

If the TA is mainly observing as a form of 'support' should this not be recorded and reported at the Annual Review?

mrz Tue 24-Sep-13 19:59:43

Long thread resurrected by posters on TES (and not all are teachers) numerous times over four years

hazeyjane Tue 24-Sep-13 19:59:43

A new one - NGM - No Grey Matter. Sums up most SEN kids in a more succinct and accurate way.

I don't find that particularly tongue in cheek, more downright offensive!

Sorry, I thought that WorriedMouse saying that a child needed 'breathing space from adult support' meant that the child was left without they had no adult support.

Wellthen Tue 24-Sep-13 20:00:13

Regards what is it on the TES thread that you object to? Teachers who do not meet the needs of statemented children are few and far between. Im interested to find out what else you are objecting to.

GetStuffezd Tue 24-Sep-13 20:00:23

Many of my statemented children have IEP targets to rely less on adult support
Ditto. Every single one of my IEPs has this as a target.

spanieleyes Tue 24-Sep-13 20:00:34

If a statemented child has a target of "working independently" there is a point of view that having a TA glued to the child's side makes this impossible to achieve. If a statemented child has a target to " develop social skills in a paired situation" there is a possibility that having two TA's in the pair-one to lead the activity and one to support the statemented child- might be defeating the object of the activity.
I have a child in my Year 6 class with a statement. He will be going onto a Special school in September next year-where he will be in a small class but with no one to one. His targets this year are to develop his coping strategies WITHOUT TA support, not possible if his 1:1 is a permanent fixture at his side so AT TIMES, she will work with other children in his group. Technically I am breaking the 1;1 rules whilst trying to meet the targets set for him.

GetStuffezd Tue 24-Sep-13 20:02:11

If the TA is mainly observing as a form of 'support' should this not be recorded and reported at the Annual Review?
I certainly didn't suggest this was her "main" form of support, as you well know! Observation of a statemented child working alone IS a valid form of support, however. CLEARLY not the main form, however.

GetStuffezd Tue 24-Sep-13 20:03:24

Ignore the superfluous "however."
Sigh

spanieleyes Tue 24-Sep-13 20:03:29

And as I have 3 statemented children in my class, each with 1;1 support, there would be times when there was more support than children!

jellycake Tue 24-Sep-13 20:03:42

Tbh had never seen that TES thread before and, as a teacher, I was horrified by it. If any of those teachers were in my school, they would be identified as having issues and would have the SLT on their backs very quickly.
As a school, we work really hard to ensure that assessment judgements are honest reflections of what a child is capable of and we have long discussions deciding sub-levels.
I agree with Worried that sometimes a child with a statement does not need or want constant 1-1 with an adult (again depending on the circumstances). I would put the child with some other children who require support or rotate the adult so that they work with other children but come back to check up and support their child. Can you imagine how it must feel to constantly have an adult at your side? Part of our job is to get them ready for their next stage of education and the children have to develop some independence in their learning.

Wellthen Tue 24-Sep-13 20:03:52

It also depends on what the statement is for. You are speaking about statements as if they specifiy that the TA sit with the child for all of their hours. I have had a few children with statements that say the support is their for the child's safety for medical or behaviour reasons. As long as the adult is in the room, they can be doing whatever the teacher directs.

Equally I have seen many statements which specify that the child should be independent where appropriate. A statement for communication for example my only require support during the input to understand what they need to do. The task itself should be independent unless the teacher has specified adult support.

WorriedMouse Tue 24-Sep-13 20:04:48

In response to the speaking and listening stuff, you really need to speak to the school. We use video evidence for assessments so there might be evidence to back this up.

Of course, APP can be subjective. And at what point do I say, "yes, he can do that" is it when he can do it with a TA, or when he can do it once independently, or is it when he can do it the next day, or when he can apply the concept when working on something else? It's hard and there are no rules and every school will do it differently. We are very open and will talk over the phone or in person about any concerns.

cranberryorange Tue 24-Sep-13 20:33:52

How heart warming to see the kids with SEN like my Ds referred to as 'tards' by so called professionals.

It seems some of these attitudes are very common because i'm that parent who is constantly on the receiving end of the rolling eyes and huffing and puffing if i dare to ask for evidence of the IEP targets being achieved when the teacher is finally forced into a review that they really cant be arsed withsad

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 20:48:35

Wellthen There is lots.

Making APP assessments up, the descriptions of some of the children, the assumptions regarding how well the children have achieved learning outcomes, the attitudes towards inclusions, the attitudes towards parents, the ignoring IEPs. You're not telling me you agree with the majority of what is on there?

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 20:49:27

^ typo that should be 'inclusion'

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 20:52:54

I agree that 1 to 1 support need not be continuous but what is happening in practise should be reported accurately at the Annual Review and the Statement amended to keep it up to date. Otherwise a child's additional need is being distorted.

MiaowTheCat Tue 24-Sep-13 20:54:10

You've made your mind up about it all so why are you asking? Not enough material on the threads linked for the usual "horrified at what teachers say" newspaper article? (PS that one's normally just done on the class names list threads btw)

Aaaah I've got it - we've ran out of inspiration now the TES "redesign" killed the posting traffic to their forums so we need to go elsewhere for our material.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 20:54:14

jellycake Pleased you are horrified. I think it is quite horrifying myself.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 20:56:48

Miaow I'm asking to check on how others view this. As a parent of a Statemented child I find the current system almost completely opaque
and difficult to negotiate. I check my views against other's sometimes. Is that not what MN is for?

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 20:57:40

I am not a journalist. Just a parent.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 20:59:20

Also if I was wrong maybe there would be some more reassuring posts.

SpottedDickandCustard Tue 24-Sep-13 21:05:36

There are a (small) number of people in every profession who do a poor job.

Be it teachers, nurses, managers whatever.

No need to tar the entire profession because of a few horror stories.

bamboostalks Tue 24-Sep-13 21:13:35

What a load of total crap this thread is. Seriously op? Why do want to stir up negativity for no real reason? You're looking for trouble, not advice or help. You're a shit stirrer, you have no real anxiety, it's quite clear what your agenda is.

Wellthen Tue 24-Sep-13 21:14:13

Some of the stuff on there suprises me and I agree with spotted that there will always be people who let us down.

But it does agrivate me when parents expected teachers to never blow off steam. How often are people refered to as twats or fuckers on here? Sometimes geuine fuckers but sometimes just annoying partners or MILs. When your kids are really pissing you off, you need somewhere to go and call them little shits. I wouldnt personally use retard but the teachers who do are just venting. Calling to their faces, in the school staffroom, in earshot of parents or children would be unforgiveable. But on a forum? Why does it matter?

We are human. We are not perfect but then, neither are your children.

I think ultimately your issues are with YOUR child and their statement and you are trying to rally support when really it is too personal a situation.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 21:17:52

I personally have experienced some stuff that just does not add up, well it does if teachers were lying or at the very least putting their own spin on the truth. I can't go in to details obviously as this is speculation and in any case the circumstances would out me.

So how 'small' a group of the profession is this? Have we been unlucky? Or do teachers feel forced into acting like this?

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 21:20:45

It's not so much the venting but the practises that have been admitted to that worries me.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 22:01:28

I do also think APP is quite flawed. How do you make sure the work that is assessed is representative of a child's current level? I know the frequency of assessment alone is not enough to ensure this.

Also with the sub levels, how often does a child seem to progress the requisite amount? Teachers are often reluctant to report them yet they are often the only standardised, albeit non standard, indicator of progress.

However, these type of assessments inform on how a teacher differentiates the teaching our children will receive, what educational opportunities will be available to them.

Smartiepants79 Tue 24-Sep-13 22:11:17

I do also think APP is quite flawed. How do you make sure the work that is assessed is representative of a child's current level? I know the frequency of assessment alone is not enough to ensure this.

That is why APP is performed on several pieces of work across several subjects and at various different times. If it wasn't it would just be a test.
It is not perfect. But one thing it is is representative.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 22:17:01

How often would an individual child's work be assessed by APP?

How simple is it to Moderate sub levels?

Smartiepants79 Tue 24-Sep-13 22:17:29

I've been teaching for over 10 years and completely agree with worriedmouse.
I get so fed up with my professional judgement being considered worthless.
I always make sure any statemented child gets the support they are entitled to. That doesn't mean their TA needs to be glued to their side. That does it lead to a very healthy relationship in my experience. Ad as others have said it very much depends on the child's needs and targets.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 22:20:56

How do you ensure accurate reporting regarding the progression in the level of support required by a Statemented child at Annual Review?

Smartiepants79 Tue 24-Sep-13 22:27:10

A child's work should be assessed continuously to be honest. When a teacher marks it they can always be on the look out for evidence for APP. We do 2 specific assessment tasks a term but if a see something in a child's work I would highlight it and date it for future reference.
APP now has to be across the whole year and a range of subjects.

Smartiepants79 Tue 24-Sep-13 22:33:53

accurate reporting? I presume from that you are not trusting the teachers judgement!?
Accuracy should be ensured by a number of things.
The observations and opinions of the TA, teacher, SENCO and possibly Headteacher.
Opinions of the child if appropriate
Observations and opinions of the parents.
Measured progress shown by APP and IEPs
I'm sure there's more but it's late and my brain is giving up.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 22:33:58

Thanks that is reassuring. Will this happen in all schools that use APP?

Also what is your answer to my other question regarding progression in support?

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 22:38:10

Sorry cross post. I was thinking more of something that was indicative of level of support, would include quantities reporting as well as qualitative. Some provision mapping?

To apply for Higher Needs funding you would have to demonstrate 6k of support, which equates to roughly 12 hours of genuine 1 to 1 support (if supporting a group, the support costs less).

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 22:39:33

^ quantitive

WorriedMouse Tue 24-Sep-13 22:39:54

APP is continuous monitoring through the year. We use APP grids and highlight objectives when they've been met. At set times through the year we make judgements on children's levels. This is subjective but in most schools is moderated.

My only advice is to talk to the school. I would be devastated to discover a parent was unhappy with my teaching or support of their child. Class teacher first, then Senco, then headteacher. I really hope you can resolve your problems with the school.

Smartiepants79 Tue 24-Sep-13 22:40:17

I can only really speak for the schools I work in and the cluster of schools that we work with for moderation.
All school should be (and I would hope nearly all are) doing something similar.
There will always be bad apples but please don't put as all in the same barrel!

Smartiepants79 Tue 24-Sep-13 22:43:38

We do provision mapping.
Recording support in three waves.
This is specific for dyslexia but gives the general idea.
www.interventionsforliteracy.org.uk/schools/guidance/

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 22:43:42

Sorry cross post. I was thinking more of something that was indicative of level of support, would include quantities reporting as well as qualitative. Some provision mapping?

To apply for Higher Needs funding you would have to demonstrate 6k of support, which equates to roughly 12 hours of genuine 1 to 1 support (if supporting a group, the support costs less).

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 22:49:22

Sorry repeated post.

The Wave 1,2 and 3 does not really quantify in quite the same way, costing is now required, as per the new legislation. This would equate very directly to whether a child's designated 1 to 1 is fully utilised.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 22:50:17

Do parents see the Provision Mapping? Is this quantified?

zzzzz Tue 24-Sep-13 22:51:17

"I wouldnt personally use retard but the teachers who do are just venting. Calling to their faces, in the school staffroom, in earshot of parents or children would be unforgiveable. But on a forum? Why does it matter?"

Really?? REALLY?? YOU SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS

Shame on you. WellThen

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 24-Sep-13 22:58:00

Wellthen

Some of the stuff on there suprises me and I agree with spotted that there will always be people who let us down.

But it does agrivate me when parents expected teachers to never blow off steam. How often are people refered to as twats or fuckers on here? Sometimes geuine fuckers but sometimes just annoying partners or MILs. When your kids are really pissing you off, you need somewhere to go and call them little shits. I wouldnt personally use retard but the teachers who do are just venting. Calling to their faces, in the school staffroom, in earshot of parents or children would be unforgiveable. But on a forum? Why does it matter?

We are human. We are not perfect but then, neither are your children.

I think ultimately your issues are with YOUR child and their statement and you are trying to rally support when really it is too personal a situation.

Venting or not, disablist language, such as this, breaks our talk guidelines. It matters because we have guidelines which promote equality and value diversity.

It isn't acceptable to use disablist language anywhere and to allow words like this would go against all that we are trying to do. This is an open forum so anyone can read your posts. It's 'unforgivable' to say this within the earshot of parents so it should be just as 'unforgivable' to post it knowing that it could be read by parents of disabled children too.

Have you seen our current campaign? This is my child

MNHQ.

lougle Tue 24-Sep-13 23:02:55

Interesting, wellthen. Dd1 goes to special school. 113 children with complex SN. challenging behavior. no one, but no one, would dream of referring to any of them as retards, in or out of ear shot. also, on a forum, your audience includes parents of children with SN. It matters.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 23:04:34

Yes I personally think disablist language is more than just venting, it betrays the prejudice of user if used intentionally in a derogatory manner.

Regards Tue 24-Sep-13 23:05:08

^the user.

PurpleGirly Tue 24-Sep-13 23:17:44

Again regards all you are getting is a snap shot from various schools. The only thing you can do is visit the actual school, ask questions and decide which one is right.

Most teachers do the very best they can to teach, inspire and assess their pupils. Sadly some don't.

hazeyjane Wed 25-Sep-13 05:44:23

I wouldnt personally use retard but the teachers who do are just venting.

Really,I mean Really!! So it would be ok for a teacher to call a racist name (which would mean that they would be, you know, a racist) as long as it is not to their face?

Can you really not see what is wrong with this?

The thought of some teacher, referring to my child as a retard, makes me feel sick with worry, and shows that that teacher isn't fit to educate any child.

Wellthen Wed 25-Sep-13 07:09:46

Whe you've been spat at, had things thrown at you, called a stupid bitch and told to fuck off, all the while knowing that in an hours time you will accept that child back into your classroom with open arms and smile because that child desperately needs to be loved an accepted then I'm sorry but I think I deserve a few minutes of muttering 'you little gobshite' to myself before I am ready to accept that child back.

I did actually say that I would not use the word and yet I have been attacked. Julie I consider your post a personal attack and its really upset me. I am simply trying to stand up for my colleagues who day in day out do their very best for your child. I love my children. Sometimes I dont like them very much but I love them. How people work through their emotions after work is up to them.

I have nothing else to say. I feel demonised. The majority of posts on MN about teachers demonise us and make us out to be nothing short of abusers. That is not an exageration. I am geuninely sorry if I've upset anyone, as I've said I do not use racist or disabledist language and am personally very against it. I pull up my friends, family and colleagues if they use it. But I do not see why I should stand by and see teachers talked about as if they go OUT OF THEIR WAY to make children and parents unhappy.

mrz Wed 25-Sep-13 07:10:58

Remember not all posters on TES are teachers or even work with children ...they get as many trolls as MN trying to controversial

buss Wed 25-Sep-13 07:13:42

'When you've been spat at, had things thrown at you, called a stupid bitch and told to fuck off, all the while knowing that in an hours time you will accept that child back into your classroom with open arms and smile because that child desperately needs to be loved an accepted then I'm sorry but I think I deserve a few minutes of muttering 'you little gobshite' to myself before I am ready to accept that child back.'

wellthen if that is the situation in your school then I think that your problem is with senior management rather than a child who clearly isn't coping.

this is just way too generalised. if you don't trust the judgement of YOUR child's teacher then it is that teacher and school that needs to be addressed. the idea that it's actually some profession wide conspiracy that all teachers are either willing participants in or forced to conform is ridiculous.

if a plumber bodged the repair on your sink and blagged about why instead of being honest and straightforward would you conclude all plumbers were.....?

there's no real quantitative way of assessing education - it is ALL qualitative really, it all requires opinion, consideration, interpretation etc. even later when marking exams against mark schemes. that is just reality.

so either you trust the professional whose opinion is being consulted or you don't. if you don't then you need to yourself gather evidence to back up your assessment of them and make a complaint.

as for the idea that any child would want an adult permanently glued to their side and never interacting with any other child for fear of diluting the funding entitlements of the child's support - it's ridiculous and harmful. 1:1 support is a lot more creative and varied than being like an armed guard.

i appreciate it may be easier to assess quantitatively in some subject/skills areas btw - but in general when it comes to levels and needs etc it is a considered and informed opinion coming from observing that child for hours on a daily basis over a wide range of tasks, situations etc. you can point to things that highlight aspects of your conclusion and you can answer questions about it etc but you can't download the whole contents of your brain of the zillion interactions and events and pieces of work and observations and ra ra ra that inform it. teachers and children are not robots.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 07:38:32

Wellthe I'm sorry you feel like that. That was not the intention of this post. I was more concerned with the Education System as it stands, systemic faults and the way teachers deal with them.

Too much of the, "..trying to stand up for my colleagues" when there are faults in the system that are glossed over, when the system is 'played' to the detriment of some children (which the threads I quoted indicates) perpetuates inequalities.

What I would like to see is genuine transparency, honesty and integrity. I'm beginning to think for a teacher to fulfil my expectation may take a very brave teacher. It looks like many would feel that this would be professional suicide. I hope this is not the case.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 07:46:59

swallowed For a professional to be truly professional there needs to be honesty, transparency and integrity. This includes admitting assessments are not fail-safe, as your post suggests,

"there's no real quantitative way of assessing education - it is ALL qualitative really, it all requires opinion, consideration, interpretation etc. even later when marking exams against mark schemes. that is just reality."

Professionalism would also include genuine, respectful, consultation with parents, since they hold a lot of information about their child. This should be a priority above protecting the profession, in order to be truly professional. Is it?

Parent involvement does not stop at raising money for the PTA or volunteering or supporting homework. They will, justifiably, see cause for criticism sometimes, since no -one is perfect.

so if teachers don't confirm your beliefs about then they're just covering for the conspiracy?

it seems your mind is very much made up and fixed to these beliefs. there is no room in such a mind set for real discussion regards.

i'm an ex teacher and will happily criticise a ton of things about the culture of some the schools i worked at, the characteristics that were all too common amongst a number of teachers and things about schools that are utterly shit. i'm in no way an apologist or defender against criticism.

yet i'm still saying that if you have a problem with specific teachers they are your problem, it is not the whole profession playing false and deliberately failing young people.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 07:50:56

If schools and LAs 'close ranks' against parents getting 'proof' can be difficult. There is not a free market of State Schools. Just being able to select a different school is fallacy.

sugarhiccup2 Wed 25-Sep-13 07:51:04

.

yes parental involvement and consultation is part of being a professional and many of the professionals on here have acknowledged that and said that is part of what they do in making assessments. so are they anomalies? liars?

do we take it that you, in your personal experience, have dealt with teachers who did not consult you and were not honest and transparent? the reality is that your views are about you and your experiences so if you refuse to share them it is really hard to move forward and talk about those in the context of the wider picture to discover if they reflect general trends or are indeed anomalies that other professionals would agree are unacceptable.

Smartiepants79 Wed 25-Sep-13 07:52:45

Very well put swallowed and wellthen. I know how you feel. Been there, done that.
Why is ok for me ( and the rest of the class) to be verbally and physically abused? Far too often this child is 'not coping' due to reasons that are nothing to do with school. Problems that school can have no impact on. Cannot change or fix. School can put every kind of support and intervention in place and still that child will ' not cope'.
What then?

sugarhiccup2 Wed 25-Sep-13 07:55:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

incidentally i was a secondary school teacher rather than primary as i believe most on here work in. i presume you are talking about primary education? if so believe me you have bigger worries to come with secondary where your child will see 5 or 6 teachers day very few of whom will have had it communicated to them what the statement is or requires. down south i found excellent sen information provision, when i moved back to middle england it was appalling. no info on registers, registers often not even available till well into september, impossible to find out detailed information on children's needs and frequently piss poor learner support staff who were more hindrance than help in the classroom.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 08:00:01

Hmm not exactly reassuring swallowed.

nope. not at all. sorry.

but you see that i'm not afraid to criticise? i just think you have to be specific to have meaningful conversations and find stuff out. what is it you think they're really up to? do you think it's about money and finding ways to not have to give the support needed or to use the support for other purposes than intended? do you think they pretend children are doing better or worse than they actually are and to what end?

what is it you think is really the issue?

sugar can you give examples of what you've seen re: squeezing, distortion, contortion? as in what you saw, what the agenda was and what was gained by who from it?

btw i think it's possible to criticise the system without denigrating teachers as a whole.

the system is essentially at breaking point imo. it was designed for much, much simpler more homogenous needs and goals. the needs and expectations and goals have changed exponentially without much change to the resources, facilities and capacity of the system. more and more gets loaded on and obviously the back breaks at some point.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 08:18:24

Its difficult to criticise the system without involving teachers as they make up the system.

I don't want to comment on my individual circumstances here as they may out me / my child. If you read the MN thread there are plenty of aspects to the SEN system that raise huge concerns with me. I hope the new legislation goes some way to encourage more transparency.

no teachers don't 'make up' the system.

teachers, like everyone else, are restricted by the system. believe me if teachers made up the system it would likely look much, much different.

one of the reasons teaching is stressful is because it falls into the most stressful kind of jobs criteria which is: having a huge amount of responsibility with very little control.

everything comes top down - be it government policies, smt, funding restrictions/cuts/etc and the teacher is just the frontline having to adjust to and keep functioning on the front line without any control or say over the mechanisms behind her.

not only do you have very little control over any of it you're the one left in the firing line for criticism because you are the frontline. parents don't tend to go shouting at the LEA or the Education Minister - they shout at the teacher.

hazeyjane Wed 25-Sep-13 09:17:46

I don't know why you feel attacked, Wellthen. As you have said you don't use the word 'retard' to describe children - but then try to defend other teachers who do use the word. I'm sorry but it is indefensible.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 09:18:50

"I have nothing else to say. I feel demonised. The majority of posts on MN about teachers demonise us and make us out to be nothing short of abusers. That is not an exageration. I am geuninely sorry if I've upset anyone, as I've said I do not use racist or disabledist language and am personally very against it. I pull up my friends, family and colleagues if they use it. But I do not see why I should stand by and see teachers talked about as if they go OUT OF THEIR WAY to make children and parents unhappy."

But you didn't pull anyone up for the language did you? You excused it. You haven't made this mother of children with sn happy. Your post made me cry. It made my life more horrible. It seems to turn the stone on a level of hate and dislike of my children that I wasn't even aware of. You say you feel demonised. I would say if you stand up for wrong, people are perfectly right (if not honour bound) to point out the evil.

As for the teachers talking the talk about vulnerable children. Shame on you.

PolterGoose Wed 25-Sep-13 09:58:41

It is shameful.

Shameful to think it is ok for teachers to describe their pupils (our children) in such a derogatory manner.

Shameful to think that teachers possess an arrogance that leads them to believe they know more than the plethora of professionals who are actually trained in disability and special needs.

Shameful that teachers think of our children as a hindrance to be tolerated.

Shameful that teachers collude in denying our children their legal rights.

hazeyjane Wed 25-Sep-13 10:01:19

Shameful to think that teachers possess an arrogance that leads them to believe they know more than the plethora of professionals who are actually trained in disability and special needs.

Yes to this^^

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 10:06:26

swallowed A teacher can decide to be honest, surely?

insanityscratching Wed 25-Sep-13 10:59:18

I'd say you are spot on there Polter but I would also add that there are decent teachers out there who are doing their best by our children.Dd's school is a hugely inclusive school and the HT, SENCo and some of the teachers fight tirelessly to secure support for the children that need it and work openly and happily with parents as a partnership.
Unfortunately I don't believe dd's school is representative of the majority of schools and it most definitely isn't in the local area as I drive dd past four schools to take her there as do many of the other parents of statemented children in the school.

PolterGoose Wed 25-Sep-13 11:20:25

insanity absolutely agree with you that there are some absolutely fantastic teachers, my ds has had a few, but it can only take one teacher to ruin a child's experience of school and that damage is not always reparable.

insanityscratching Wed 25-Sep-13 11:42:51

Exactly Polter it has taken dd's school years to put right the damage caused by a yr1 teacher in a different school but it means she will always be vulnerable and it means she won't go to secondary school next year (so I'll have to home ed instead) purely because the chances are that there will be one of "those" teachers among the five or six she will come into contact each day.
I knew dd's school would be good to their word when I phoned to look round and they said turn up whenever you want, when I could turn up unannounced today to see dd and I know she would be happy and supported and that when she started there they let me choose how quickly she could handle full time and topped up her 20 hour statement with their own funding so that she would be supported constantly.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 12:12:24

There is no way of telling who the people are on tes. I don't know any teachers who use it. Considering there are some very organised troll gangs on the Internet nowadays, I would believe most were not teachers.

There is never an excuse for using such remarks. Personally I don't even think them, let alone use them.

As others have said they're are always going to be bad eggs in every profession. However the majority of us work damn hard to do the best for the children in our care. Believe me, my job would be a hell of a lot easier if I didn't give two hoots and made up all of the assessments.

app should be a continues process with evidence to back it up.

I've discussed use of ta's on a previous thread so I won't go over it again.

In regards of how to improve the situation...

Assessment levels need to be simple so that everyone can easy understand them and know if their child is progressing or not. Currently I think it is quite opaque for most people. That way parents can monitor. External agencies are all well and good but they can't move fast enough to help individual children.

Support for children at any level of sen needs to be faster and much easier to get. Statements are sold as a way of getting guaranteed support when in actual fact they are a way of rationing support. They are incredibly difficult to get and many children in need of support or extra sessions do not qualify. This is where schools start being free and easy with one child's support in order to help other children. It isn't right but I understand why it is done. This wholesale use of funds for other children has not occurred in any schools I have worked in. At least not to my knowledge. I do know of other schools where a ta statemented to work with one child is given 3 children who need support. Not in a your statemented child is working in a group sorting of way but that the ta had been given two extra children which is entirely wrong, not least because it makes life much harder for the staff. Never mind that none of the children are being properly supported.

Currently the systems take too long and quite frankly when experts come in they often look at the class teachers as if they are the cause and give very generalised strategies. Which in some cases will not work with the whole class or will be counterproductive to other children. They tend to look at the one child without taking into account that the teacher needs to deal with a whole class which has its own very different dynamic. Don't get me wrong, some teachers need a serious attitude adjustment and can create more problems than they solve but assuming that it is the case everytime helps no one.

Lack of strategies and motoring of progression, especially for children who have behavioural problems means that often they are given one to one support or essentially a minder. Then nothing else happens. Some schools work hard to put in extra support but not everyone.

I think Ofsted needs to stop inspections in their current form. They are a waste of time. They need to be what most parents think they are already, essentially school referees. They should have offices up and down the country where parents can wonder in and say look school said x, y and z is this right? My child had only made x progress, is it okay? School keeps sending my ds home, are they allowed to do that? Instead of the piece meal support that is given to parents currently which they often don't know how to access anyway.

A separate service for school improvement should facilitate schools learning best practise from each other and helping staff share strategies that work for various children.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 12:31:51

"They tend to look at the one child without taking into account that the teacher needs to deal with a whole class which has its own very different dynamic." confused

Well of course they do, their job is to say what this one child with sn needs to access the education everyone else gets access to by not being disabled. It is then schools job to provide it. This is not some faddy idea, equality for people with sn is enshrined in law (and frankly should be obvious to everyone). It being difficult or awkward is never an excuse not to o the right thing.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 13:01:46

zzzz you are making the assumption that there is only one child in class with additional needs. I work in mainstream education but children without needs are in the minority in a number of classes in my school.

One external professional giving advice which isn't going to work and in some instances contradicts support needed for another is less than useful. Some advice is specific to one child and does not affect others but some is about classroom management which in some instances is useful and effective but other times is detrimental.

Things really are not that simple. Nothing is when it involves people. Trying to make it sound simple doesn't help anyone or improve support and services.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 13:04:30

Also i'm not complaining about things being awkward. I'm talking about things being unworkable or impractical.

You can't change and improve what we have if you don't get what we currently have and why we have it.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 13:11:36

soapbox surely that is the whole point of the EdPsych observing in class. The advice should be specific to that child in that setting. If it isn't ask for it to be.
I do understand (probably more than most) the constraints of dealing with more than ones child's needs. At the bare roots it IS simple, XXX needs YZ# to access education. The onus is on school to provide it. That's the law. No excuses.

Have you ever sent back the recommendations explaining your difficulties and asked for them to be adapted? If not, why not? The EdPsych is trained and paid to provide this service.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 13:16:13

However "what we currently have" is not the same for every school. Not every school is open and honest about what they have, they 'play the system' and gloss over the fact to the parents. There is not always accurate reporting about what their child is receiving or their progression.

How can parents 'get what we currently have and why we have it.', in this type of scenario. How easy is it even to uncover this type of scenario if there is collusion amongst staff?

In one way I am pleased that new SEN legislation seeks to uncover mismanaged resources, through school having to demonstrate they have spent an initial 6k before Higher Need Funds are applied for. Quantified Provision Mapping IMO will uncover some of this. In another way the legislation does not go far enough, especially with regards to inclusion and reporting progression (since Levels are being abolished and there seems to be no replacement).

The only way to prevent this is honesty, transparency and integrity from individual schools and teachers but it is a difficult thing to judge from the outside.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 13:19:32

^and Parents being able to manage their child's individual funding will be incredibly interesting.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 13:34:08

Regards my whole post further back was about a need for transparency and for systems that are easy for the public to understand. Systems that are not as easy to gloss over. There will never be a perfect system but at the moment is easy enough to keep pretty much everyone in the dark if you are in charge of a school. Classroom staff included.

zzzz Usually the comment I get back is 'well that's what we recommend' meaning they don't have another answer. More often than not I get bounced back by senco or the head teacher. Most children have been assessed long before I get them anyway so staff have been muddling through for a while. While some external assessors are great and have some really great strategies, many are rubbish or are not used to working with a particular age of children. Even the best are only in class for a short period of time and usually, sods law, the child behaves entirely differently.

I'm not trying to defend the current system. I'm defending why some things happen. I can only work with what I am given. I can't magic up money, resources or better consultations.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 13:38:36

I agree it will be interesting when parents can see the books so to speak. I just hope they're will be support for some to understand it.

Many of our most in need children, also have vulnerable parents who wouldn't necessarily understand or would take a heads word that it was the best option. Having easy access to something very visible such add the local Ofsted office would give them a chance to get plans and provisions checked over.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 13:41:13

Well from the sounds of it we have imperfect schools, imperfect teachers and an imperfect system. Pretty much what I thought with some teachers and schools trying to gloss over this and becoming very secretive and defensive.

I appreciate your honesty soapbox and I hope you are able to be honest and accurate in your reporting to the LA and parents.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 13:42:48

Sounds like a lot of the teachers are 'vulnerable' too, the lengths some will go to to cover all this up.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 13:46:17

I also hope the 'support' for parents to understand 'the books' is neutral too.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 13:49:26

I think you assume teachers have a lot more say and powers then we really do.

Yes teachers can subvert by ignoring children's needs which should be dealt with by senior management. However, the majority of the time we have no more power than the parents. In fact I would argue less so as really we can't do anything without permission from parents or management.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 13:50:32

Regards I have no idea what you meant by that last statement.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 13:55:25

I am only a parent. I do not know what decisions are made by the SMT and what decisions are made by teachers. All I know is that there is corruption and collusion from somewhere.

All I would ask of teachers is to be honest. I tend to be able to spot lies and obvious squirming, reports and decisions that just don't 'add up'. It is the elephant in the room as I can spot it, but just cannot accuse without the evidence, which takes a while to collect.

Yes I am that parent.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 13:58:52

What that 'support' should be neutral? Just that not taking 'a heads word that it was the best option.', necessarily makes one 'vulnerable'. Everyone including Head Teachers is fallible and is not beyond reproach.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 14:03:02

I meant many of the parents we have are themselves sen and wouldn't understand or be able to challenge conclusions properly.

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 14:03:30

1 to 1 is one of those anomalies because statements USED TO be measured by the time a child needed support. This was often just based on medical needs, or keeping him/her entertained so the rest of the class could study without interruption.

It was based on what was convenient to teachers.

Now they have worked out that this is not the best way to ensure a child with disabilities can reach their full potential and so children are provided with inclusive education. This essentially does away with 1 to 1 support as by its very nature it is based on the idea that children are taught inclusively in group.

Most of us know that this is the way children like to be taught, they don't like to be separated and work on their own (exceptional cases only). It also happens that inclusive education not only enhances the childrens lives and access to education, it can save a bit of money as children can be taught together. It is a win-win situation, actually a triple win as teaching methods have become much more child focussed in general and this has benefited all children.

OK it's not perfect but it's a heck of a lot better, for everyone, than segregation.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 14:07:24

soap Pleased you have cleared that up.

passego I have no problem with that model of inclusion, if it works.

Accurate truthful reporting is what is needed IMO. If a child's 1 to 1 is not used as a 1 to 1 it should be reported truthfully and their progression monitored accurately. I don't think this is happening.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 14:10:28

I'm about to be that parent too as I have a little boy with sen. I think most parents of sen children have to be.

Most often the class teacher is caught between a rock and a hard place. Being really honest may mean essentially calling the head a liar or making them out to be less than honest. That's assuming that as the class teacher you have all of the information anyway.

Calling a head out like that will cause serous problems. In some cases a swift exit without the possibility of working as a teacher again. Stiff penalty with no real benefit for anyone.

Before your say we should stand up for the children in our care. We do. By doing the best for them with the resources that we have and by lobbying goverment through our unions. Its just that no one ever listens.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 14:12:29

soap I get you but the TES thread suggests a lot of lobbying is about teacher's needs and not children's.

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 14:14:02

The point is that on the statement it is called one to one for the purposes of quantifying the money spent. It isn't intended as that at all. They should simply change it then people wouldn't be under the illusion.

It is absurd in any case as what child is autistic (for example) for 15 hours only? The suddenly stop and get better for the rest of the time?

I think most parents understand that their child wouldn't thrive if they were truly one to one for 15 hours and then left to fend for themselves for the other 15. Schools work it out so that resources are shared and children can work in groups, perhaps this needs to be explained to parents better, or perhaps they should change the statementing system.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 14:17:01

I would ignore the tes. Only people who read it are student teachers or people who need a job and don't have the Internet.

Unions do fight for staff. We pay them to after all but there are many campaigns purely about education. Many fall into the category of best for both staff and pupils.

The problem is, they can be a bit rubbish about getting that message across.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 14:21:16

passedgo The Statementing system has been changed. A school will now provide the initial 6K funding for additional needs. This equates to 12 hours genuine 1 to 1 support (not group work or floating TA). After that High Needs funding needs to be applied for.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 14:22:35

The cost comes down if a TA works to support a group of children. Schools will receive extra funding up front for this.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 14:25:13

How will this extra funding be allocated? Not all schools have the same levels of sen children.

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 14:25:20

Regards I don't understand. It equates to the financial equivalent of 12 hours 1 to 1 support or it equates to children having to have 12 hours of 1 to 1 support if that's in their statement? Or is it just whatever they can get for 6k?

Sorry have you got a link to the source, I need to learn about this!

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 14:25:49

Well I think TES should have known better and moderated their threads more closely in that case. I think there probably were some teachers on the thread, the experiences and attitudes sounded quite real to me.

I am pleased, though, that it was not moderated out in order to bring this to light.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 14:27:20
Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 14:28:29

The 6k takes more unravelling and looking at several LA policy documents which quantify support. I have been digging for a while...

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 14:28:51

I mean what 6K equates to.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 14:32:56

Soapbox Your school should have had the opportunity to be involved in the consultation. It is being rolled out as we speak.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 14:34:25

Look up the School Forum and Cabinet Meeting Minutes for your LAs policy development.

insanityscratching Wed 25-Sep-13 14:35:16

Regards what happens though if school decides that they'd rather have more hours with a level 1 TA for their money rather than say a TA who is qualified and experienced such as dd's TA?

Dd's level of TA would be protected as it's in her statement but it might mean more "babysitting" rather than actual support for some children. I think that's one of my concerns about the focus being on cost rather than need.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 14:37:38

insanity Well I suppose if there is justification for High Needs funding she would get that and the Education Health Care Plan.

insanityscratching Wed 25-Sep-13 14:47:15

From what I understand (although I haven't checked because I'm home schooling next year so not too worried) dd's statement will continue and so her level of TA support will run .
My worry would be that schools would let go of really effective qualified TA's to get more for their money. Let's face it just because a TA's hours is convenient when your child is at school it doesn't mean you are up to the job. I would actually hate dd's TA to be "one of the parents off of the playground"

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 14:52:32

Hmm insanity yes. However that is a problem now for many. Not all schools include the parents in recruitment decisions. Its not easy to go around asking everyone about their qualifications either...

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 14:54:49

Some of the less qualified TAs are also better than the more qualified. Qualifications do not bar you from being just awful or having a character clash with the child you were assigned to 1 to 1.

insanityscratching Wed 25-Sep-13 14:59:00

Agreed although I have been extremely fortunate with dd and ds's TA's. I'm not saying that one precludes the other more that I would be concerned that schools would plump for quantity over quality and I think that would be a huge detriment to lots of children.

insanityscratching Wed 25-Sep-13 15:03:30

So like during the OFSTED inspection when dd's TA was sick she was replaced by another TA who although giving her 1 to 1 support as per her statement was in fact a bum on the seat rather than her TA who is able to float in and out according to dd's needs at that time. In that case the TA who replaced dd's TA supported dd (although not really it was more that they were present) but her TA would have supported dd but also others in the class so better value for money.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 15:10:53

Yes I think so.

If your dd's TA supported other children the 'cost' would be assigned to each of these children. Your dd's Statement would not be used to cover their needs. The EHCP is individual and details a child's individual support (over 6k, the school is responsible for the initial 6k)

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 15:24:29

Schools (I think all schools, not just academies) are now free to set higher salaries for TAs, where previously the rate was set by the LA, and was in line with a dinner lady's salary.

About time I say. I think this will result in better qualified and higher paid TAs. Schools know how valuable it is to get good staff as opposed to taking on the only person prepared to do the job for such a low wage.

A decent TA can help children progress much more. There may be schools where teachers cream off the money but they would be very unwise and probably very bad schools.

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 15:26:11

Correction, LSA's are different from TA's. TAs can cover the class but LSA's are for small groups unless that's changed as well.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 15:51:13

I'm really confused by this repeated insistence that children don't want 1:1 all the time thy want to learn with their peers.

Having a 1:1 TA couldn't be farther from that.

The WHOLE point is that the child needs someone to facilitate their schooling allowing them to be part of the class. Yes in some instances that might mean taking them outside for a break or sitting next to them adding props/signs/simplified language at circle time, or helping them finish their work on a separate table. But for many children that is THE ONLY WAY they can access ms education. They may only get X hours because they really only need this level of support in literacy, or in numeracy, or at the beginning and end of the day.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 15:56:18

zzzzz I think some children need 1 to 1, some don't, some start off needing it and this need tails off, some need it later on in their school life. You can't really generalise. What you need is a rigorous system that identifies reports and meets need accurately.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 15:58:28

I don't think 1:1 is the default for everyone at the moment.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 15:58:33

Zzzz, this isn't the case for all children though. I do allow my TA to take a step back sometimes when it's apparent the child is completing a task happily on their own...it's good evidence to bring to a statement review!

OP, I can't help but infer from your posts that you feel most teachers are dishonest and untrustoworthy, deliberately taking support away from children who need it in order to prioritize others in the class. That honestly gets me down, as it will any teacher who spends all bloody day (an often a good portion of the night) thinking of ways to help their pupils be happy and make progress.

Not even going to comment on the TES thread as many of the comments are just terrible and clearly made by people who are in the wrong job.

PolterGoose Wed 25-Sep-13 16:01:49

Exactly zzzzz my ds's LSA is funded for 15h a week which covers 1-1 supervision and support at play/lunchtime, keeping a watchful eye through the day so she can offer appropriate intervention when needed, she will do 1-1 projects with him when the other children are doing an activity he cannot cope with, she will take small groups to a more quiet space for a few lessons a week so she can model and support his group working skills in a real setting instead of the dreaded social skills group which is pointless. It is very flexible and the number of hours reached was based on school evidencing what they were already doing. Without her presence, with her being both actively engaged and just being available, he would be out of school.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 16:06:09

But "stepping back" is NOT the same as using that TA for someone else is it?

Fading out support is of course the dream, but legally that support is for THAT child. She/he should be focused on that child, or the teacher should, with NO other children to support, because the statement says one to one. That doesn't mean she isn't the only adult on a table of kids. It means she is there for her client supporting him in the group.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 16:10:10

I agree for the most part, but I would on occasion have the TA and her child working in a group because group work can be really beneficial. Still there to support her child but helping him work as part of a group.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 16:10:17

GetStuffezed OP, I can't help but infer from your posts that you feel most teachers are dishonest and untrustoworthy, deliberately taking support away from children who need it in order to prioritize others in the class.

Not so. I think there are a lot of issues at play that have resulted in some teachers being dishonest about the fine detail of support. There are some flaws in the system and some preconceptions which may also distort the nature of what is actually happening and whether this is in an individual child's best interests. For example, sometimes the 'aiming to encourage more independence' is more about resource, sometimes it is genuine. It is hard to judge professionals motivations or ability in making these judgements, as a parent as so much is opaque in education, or can be made to be.

insanityscratching Wed 25-Sep-13 16:11:57

Dd's statement funds 20 hours of her TA but her TA is in school, in her class,(class TA is also FT and another SENTA is FT) for the whole of every day, the rest of the hours are topped up by the school and aren't specifically assigned dd. It is very flexible so some days dd doesn't have four hours of her TA's time at other times she has more than four hours, things like the OT programme is done by another TA, SALT programme when she needed it would be by a different TA and one of her IEP targets is done by the teacher rather than the TA's. I'd imagine the paperwork to cost out what dd's support actually costs would be hugely complex and I'd imagine schools will end up funding accountants at the detriment of actual support for children who need it,

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 16:12:01

And of course the reporting of what is happening should be completely transparent.

on occasion have the TA and her child working in a group because group work can be really beneficial. Still there to support her child but helping him work as part of a group.

How would you report this for example?

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 16:13:51

Insanity Did you not say on the other thread your daughter's TA was participating in the Reading Recovery programme in another classroom? How can she be supporting your daughter?

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 16:20:48

I agree there are many areas of the education system which are perhaps not transparent enough from a parents' POV. But... Having every professional decision you make questioned can be very frustrating. And no I don't think teachers are beyond reproach! grin The vast, vast majority of teachers want the very best for their pupils and will do everything in their powers to do so.

Having a class that range in ability from P scales up to level six is seriously tricky to manage and requires a lot of time and effort in planning. And can be very frustrating. I have a great girl in my y6 class who has a fixed number of 1:1 hours with a TA and gets them. She can only say a handful of words and her comprehension skills are very very low. Every day I'm acutely aware that she's not getting the best education with me, even though she's happy, because I and the TA can't give her precisely what's needed.

Slight rant there, but if you believe a teacher really isn't acting in the best interest of a child, SEN or not, I wouldn't let it lie. Because if I had that accusation thrown at me I'd have them there for bloody hours showing them all the stuff we are trying to do in difficult circumstances.

insanityscratching Wed 25-Sep-13 16:22:37

And should probably add that dd is one of the most "straightforward" statemented children in her school others have far greater needs and a far larger team of support around them so their costings would be incredibly complex. I wouldn't want schools to have to use account managers first before a child got the support they needed.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 16:23:01

I don't need to report this example - why would I when it occurs so infrequently? It is still the TA supporting her charge and ONLY her charge, but allowing him to take part in group work. My planning would indicate this. My provision map says that the TA is 1:1 with X for maths and English and that's what she does.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 16:27:39

Children with 1:1 support should be joining in with group work whenever it is sensible. Why wouldn't they?

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 16:28:24

GetStuffezd As a parent of a child who is Statemented I would say you have to question professional's decisions.

You viewpoint is equally if not more valid than a professional's, as you have to think strategically not tactically. You are responsible for the child for the rest of their life not just a few years in one school or a year in a class. You will not be concerned about a school's funding issues or your success as a class teacher as your individual child will be your priority.

Not all teachers readily include a parent in their decision making or even inform them of what is happening.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 16:31:36

GetStuffezed I have no problem if your reports are accurately representative of what happens.

However there comes a time when you have to decide to report even infrequent occurrences, it makes more sense then when these occurrences become more frequent.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 16:34:46

You viewpoint is equally if not more valid than a professional's, as you have to think strategically not tactically. You are responsible for the child for the rest of their life not just a few years in one school or a year in a class. You will not be concerned about a school's funding issues or your success as a class teacher as your individual child will be your priority.

Conversely, your approach will be utterly single minded and focused on your child. Goes without saying. However, your child and their provision is just one concern out of 30 for us. The work we put into ensuring your child has the best possible education HAS to be matched x30. Communication is the key and yes, if a school were being shady or evasive I would dig deeper.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 16:36:40

Statements of SEN, though, detail individual provision.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 16:37:18

However there comes a time when you have to decide to report even infrequent occurrences, it makes more sense then when these occurrences become more frequent.
Yes, at the statement review I would say "x has been working well within a group setting under the support of mrs x. I propose we aim to make this a more regular occurrence." IF I thought that was the right thing to do. Gently encouraging SOME statemented children towards increasing independence is a good thing and I would make no attempt to hide my opinions on this, or demonstrate where this has worked.

insanityscratching Wed 25-Sep-13 16:38:13

Well I'd imagine Regards that either dd would be unsupported at that time or she'd be with the TA who does the OT programme she could be doing IEP work with her teacher she could be supported by the class TA I don't know but I know she is happy and I know that if she wasn't her TA would rearrange when she did reading recovery.
I don't feel dd is short changed with her support so when she went on the residential she was supported round the clock for five days likewise when there are school trips or outside providers in the support doesn't stop when her four hours are up.
As I say dd's school is exceptionally supportive to children with SEN and so I don't quantify dd's support in terms of how long dd's TA sits beside her but more in how happy and confident she is and the progress she has made.
Dd's school is open with me (dd would blow the whistle anyway) and so I don't feel the need to police them. I know if I have ever had concerns then they have been listened to and we have worked out solutions between us I've never felt that they have been dismissed or that the school is hiding things from me as I say I could go into school at anytime in fact HT invited me in to waych her in the playground because he had seen a huge leap in her peer relations.
I think it's a different set up to your experience and one that not all children with SEN are fortunate to have tbh

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 16:38:15

Yes, I do know that. And it takes a lot of time to timetable that provision. And then there's the rest of the class to provide for!

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 16:39:01

IF I thought that was the right thing to do

I would have liked your last post better without this statement. How do you decide?

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 16:40:22

Dd's school is open with me (dd would blow the whistle anyway) and so I don't feel the need to police them
Exactly! I imagine that if schools are cagey or things are blatantly not happening when they should be, this is where the relationships falls down.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 16:41:26

X post. My above post refers to 16:37 post.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 16:41:55

Because it's my PROFESSIONAL opinion, given at a meeting other professionals AND parents where it can be discussed and either agreed or disagreed with. Why don't you seem to think I'm allowed a professional opinion?

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 16:45:02

Yes, at the statement review I would say "x has been working well within a group setting under the support of mrs x. I propose we aim to make this a more regular occurrence." IF I thought that was the right thing to do.

Sorry I took that statement to mean you would withhold information if you thought it was right to do so.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 16:46:03

I do allow people to have opinions just don't like been kept in the dark regarding decisions made concerning my child.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 16:48:54

And that's fair enough and I'm guessing (sorry if nosey) that you've a pretty shit experience with a school supporting an SEN child. Yes, there are shit schools, secretive schools, dishonest schools. But not the majority.

sugarhiccup2 Wed 25-Sep-13 16:51:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sugarhiccup2 Wed 25-Sep-13 16:53:40

I also suspect that an element of shame also keeps people quiet. Even at the level of admitting to themselves what they are doing. I really do think that there is such a pervasive sense of failure, of fear of failing to meet seemingly unmeetable and changing goals, that people are haunted by a sense/fear of shame.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 16:58:35

Well if they are stealing money TA time from children with SEN, I would say they are feeling shame, because they are behaving shamefully.

You can stop doing it you know. Tomorrow could be the day you say "no".

insanityscratching Wed 25-Sep-13 17:46:39

sugar at dd's previous school her TA was lovely but her teacher used her as a lackey and her TA wasn't forceful or confident enough to say no. I felt for her TA but ultimately she allowed my dd to suffer by not meeting her role and so I took dd out of the school and the TA lost her job whilst the teacher went through competency (not solely down to dd of course). Her current TA is far more certain of where her role lies and there is also a FT class TA and her teacher is 100% more competent and so her TA can concentrate on dd's needs.

'I do think it is so widespread, so insidious, and it is enacted by pressure exerted on individuals, it deters against openness about how widespread it is.'

Which is why so many schools and LAs are so against Applied Behavioural Analysis despite the impressive and wide evidence base, as it would hold the school accountable for every minute of the TA's time.

I think teachers are unprepared to be honest even with themselves to they tell themselves stories about how the TA being 'reallocated' is 'good' for the child in question, or if not, 'the only way they can possibly manage their unreasonable workload and manage the class 'for the sake of the child with SEN too''.

'And that's fair enough and I'm guessing (sorry if nosey) that you've a pretty shit experience with a school supporting an SEN child. Yes, there are shit schools, secretive schools, dishonest schools. But not the majority.'

It's most definitely the majority of the mainstream state schools that the children with SNs attend on the MNSN board.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 20:51:59

I think the majority too. sad

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 21:11:12

Well that's your opinion but it feels like an absolute kick in the teeth to read posts tarring all teachers with the same brush. It's rude, offensive and ill-informed.
Just look at the title of the OP.

But even here on this thread, we have a number of teachers breaking the law without repercussions. That somehow their 'professional opinion' is more important than the law.

Many of them think they have the moral high ground to do so, certainly in my ds' last 5 schools. I think it is fairly normalised in most schools so not the 'event' that it should be.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 21:20:41

Like who? This person?
I have a child in my Year 6 class with a statement. He will be going onto a Special school in September next year-where he will be in a small class but with no one to one. His targets this year are to develop his coping strategies WITHOUT TA support, not possible if his 1:1 is a permanent fixture at his side so AT TIMES, she will work with other children in his group. Technically I am breaking the 1;1 rules whilst trying to meet the targets set for him.

Well yes, for one.

And the fact that he is going to secondary soon means that he is in even greater need of his statement to be adhered to as he is running out of time to gain as many of the skills as he will need as well as prepare for the transition.

The support is not only being removed at a time when it is most needed, it is breaking the law, and if not fully disclosed to his parents, underhandedly and denying them the right to remedy this through Judicial Review if they disagree with this 'professional judgement' that breaks the law.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 21:38:04

Well presumably they felt he needed 121 support to work out how to develop those strategies. Otherwise he doesn't need 121 at all and he shouldn't have kept it on his statement, no?

My guess is the model should be dc tries X, 121 watches, 121 gives feedback, dc tries again. NOT TA buggers off to help someone else because you're supposed to be learning to be independent. confused

That's a bit like teaching a child to eat solids by giving the baby a T-bone steak.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 21:41:54

And the fact that he is going to secondary soon means that he is in even greater need of his statement to be adhered to as he is running out of time to gain as many of the skills as he will need as well as prepare for the transition.
What about the skill of independence?

What about it?

I thought I was TALKING about the skill of independence!? confused

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 21:43:45

I posted the thread title as a question, much like a statement then, "Discuss".

It was an information generating exercise and I certainly found out lots...

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 21:43:51

Well presumably they felt he needed 121 support to work out how to develop those strategies. Otherwise he doesn't need 121 at all and he shouldn't have kept it on his statement, no?
Doesn't need it at all? That's not for you to judge. You don't know her pupil's circs and cant comment on what he should or shouldn't have on his statement.

If the statement says 1:1, it really doesn't matter whether a teacher thinks he needs it or not.

It is not for the teacher to make the judgement. The judgement has already been made by the people doing the in-depth and detailed assessment to which the teacher has contributed.

Still not getting the 'independence skill thing'.

Are you suggesting that children with SEN just learn it through osmosis and neglect?

Because if you are then I'm actually pretty glad teachers aren't responsible alone for what is written in statements.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 21:48:05

This is the last thing I'm going to ask, then I'm off to bed. Starlight, say I am teaching my class and can see the TA working with her pupil and the pupil is doing extremely well. Would you find it unacceptable for me to nab the TA and say "hold back a bit, let's see where he goes with this on his own?"

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 21:50:03

Are you suggesting that children with SEN just learn it through osmosis and neglect?
How extremely rude of you. I think it's quite clear I haven't suggested that. You are entirely unwilling to see another point of view besides your own, which makes you a really dull person to engage with.
Off to bed.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 21:51:58

GetSteffezed. Surely if you are a teacher you realise that a child who hasn't learnt "independence" in the previous 6 years of school is gong to need some pretty intensive help to get there in a year? That chucking him in till he floats, rarely produces a confident happy swimmer? Surely you have som idea of breaking down skills into their parts? Identifying goals? Reinforcing good behaviour? Correcting mistakes quickly lest they become entrenched?

What you are suggesting is like teaching long division by providing a pen and paper with Learn Long Division written on the top and then buggering off to hear another class read.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 22:00:04

That's not what she was suggesting and you know it. You are both starting to sound like broken records.

I think you are obviously happy assuming that teachers are all liars and incompetents. If that's what you expect to see then that's what you will find.

The rest of us will get on with doing what is best for the children in our care.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 22:04:40

With all due respect soap some teachers have admitted they can't do what is best.

All recognise there are problems. You can't expect parents to be pleased. We don't know who to trust. Professional judgement is no reassurance.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 22:04:52

I don't think teachers are incompetents. shock

I think that children with sn whose statements say they require a 1:1 should get it, because that is their right. I don't think that 1:1 needs to hovering all over them, but I do think they need to be facilitating that child's education for ALL the time they are supposed to in a 1:1 capacity.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 22:11:53

With respect if your best is breaking the law, reallocating a vulnerable child's resources and over ruling the reports and deliberations of countless specialist most of whom are specifically trained for years to make just these types of recommendations, then I'd rather you stopped "just getting on with doing what is best" in your eyes. What's more I will continue to say so, until my brave boy can say so for himself.

Trust me you don't feel a tenth as hurt as I do when I read someone calling a child like mine a "tard" or saying they go fart next to the incontinent kid. Ha ha ha ha ha.

So what IS she suggesting soap? What on earth am I supposed to 'know' that makes everything alright, because I'm not trying to have an argument, I am trying to express my concern that teachers are breaking the law and either don't know it, or don't care.

And - Because it looked like she thought it was okay to nab statemented child's TA for other work and justify it to herself that it was to give that child independence.

This might seem like a reasonable course of action because it is just so common it has almost become 'common sense', but it is illegal nonetheless and it denies the child their rights.

There is nothing wrong of course, with a TA being trained in how to step back, monitor and step back in, but the test is always 'Does what x' TA is doing RIGHT NOW, have THAT child as their sole focus?

For example, not being with their charge because they are preparing a couple of model peers for a practise interaction with THAT child is still fulfilling the legal requirements of the statement, helping a different child with a maths question, is not.

Hiding round the corner observing THAT child arrive for school and organise his stuff, in order to plan some reminders at home-time or help him to compile a list of the things he got wrong to remember the next day, is fine, - ignoring his arrivial and listening to another parent's concerns about their child's food sensitivities is not.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 22:26:17

And - Because it looked like she thought it was okay to nab statemented child's TA for other work and justify it to herself that it was to give that child independence.

Oh fuck off! Look at what I wrote. I suggested a scenario where I said to the TA "let's hold back and see how he does with this on his own." Perfectly OK. Stop twisting things.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 22:29:31

Whether you are meaning to or not, that is exactly how it sounds.

Some children need one to one in order to learn, some children don't need to have someone next to them all of the time. Some only need their one to one in specific situations but that person needs to available at all times should particular events occur. Most children only get a few hours so that time needs to be directed by the teacher unless for a specific subject.

The experts aren't necessarily all that expert. Often their ideas and advice are by flow chart. Child has x they need y. I'm finding this with my own son.

Absolutely the system isn't perfect. Nothing and nobody is and I'm sorry for the people who have been terribly let down by it.

However, comparing carefully crafted opportunities for children to progress with wholesale dereliction of care for specific children is entirely unfair and unwarranted.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 22:34:38

One to one is not "someone next to them all of the time"

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 22:36:36

You have read the descriptions of TA taking groups in other rooms? Having 2 or 3 other children with sn allocated to them as well?
You are reading the same thread aren't you?

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 22:39:08

soap I think parents just want some transparency and honesty. The Statement reflecting their child's needs with accuracy and in turn being adhered to in the classroom.

Trouble is the system has been far too slow and clunky. If needs change it has been easier to relocate those funds to support another child than secure funding for that other child. If needs are not continuous or a child is not disruptive albeit not learning, ditto.

This is bad teaching or management or indeed LA policy (with the example of policies that resist changes being made to a Statement).

It is not surprising some have been unscrupulous or have felt pressure to become so...

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 22:42:11

Yeah because I don't know what it's like to have people say horrible things about my child. Thank you for making that assumption.

Again you are determind to miss understand. Nobody has said it is ok for a ta specifically there for one child to be removed so that they can piss about with other activities. However, many people are pointing out that things aren't as black and white as you like to think.

If you have a problem with your child's provision then deal with your school.

TA's cannot tell parents to piss off because they don't work with their child. Most parents just see a member of staff. Neither can they tell a child to go away if they ask for help because they are not their charge. If another child is injured should the ta ignore them? If the teacher is getting punched in the face, should the ta ignore that too because it has nothing to do with them?

Apologies. I thought you meant you would 'nab' them for other duties.

However, I would like to think that the TA was sufficiently trained or instructed by the teacher, as well as be sufficiently knowledgeable about the child's targets, competent in measurement and data-collection (as the data will inform them better than a teacher's opinion when they have 30 others to teach) to know exactly when to become vigilant wallpaper and not regularly need the teachers direction on that.

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 22:45:30

Op you must be exhausted trying to keep on top of the minutiae of you child's day.

I trust my child's school to do what they think is best for my child. They are trained professionals. I couldn't let my child go to a school where the I can't trust the staff, it would be unsettling for my child if she heard I had doubts and wouldn't be fair on her.

Schools can never be perfect but parents aren't either.

As I said. 121 on a statement is just a way of quantifying the level of support needed in a way that makes sense to the accountants and the heads for staff planning . It is misleading but at the moment that: is all we have.

It would seem obvious to most because disabilities are not part-time. Yes you need to keep an eye out for slack attitudes, they do still sadly exist, but banging on about accurate hours just creates conflict.

Sorry.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 22:46:01

Yup, and mine most certainly is. She has more degrees than me and is a generally brilliant woman!
However, as I'm responsible for planning the work she completes with her charge, and ultimately I'm responsible for the education of the child, it might well be me who makes the call to take a step back.

'If you have a problem with your child's provision then deal with your school.'

How many teachers tell parents that their child's 1:1 is being used illegally?

How is a parent to find out if the teacher is unwilling to risk her career (As mentioned in this thread)?

What then is the parent supposed to do about it?

How is the parent supposed to police it?

My child has been taken out of 5 schools for this very topic. I had to fecking hide in bushes to find out and when I challenged schools and teachers they LIED to me about it.

5 schools, - before he was 6 years old shock

How many more schools do you think it would have taken before someone actually adhered to the law?

What repercussions do you think would have been appropriate for those teachers, those schools?

'They are trained professionals.'

They are not trained in SEN. If you're lucky, you'll get a teacher that chose the optional essay to be ONE SEN rather than ESL, (which is the preferred one) when they are doing their teacher training.

Local Authority level training happens rarely, is delivered by numpties promoted out of the classroom before they cause real harm, who attended a 2 day course on SEN and then bang on about ''managing' children with SEN in the classroom' as opposed to 'Educating' as the remit for the LA is to contain these children for as long as possible in the least expensive placement until they become the problem for the social care budget.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 22:51:35

My child with a Statement always happened to be placed in groups with un-statemented children with SEN.

Another mother, of one of these children, was pleased when she told me he had a TA to support him on his table that year.

I knew who vaguely was Statemented as some details, concerning how they traveled to school, were on a School Travel Plan (published by the Council as part of a Planning application). This child did not fit the bill. Others on the table also had SEN, mothers told me, but again no Statement.

Needless to say this was not openly discussed with me by the school.

'If the teacher is getting punched in the face, should the ta ignore that too because it has nothing to do with them?'

Yes, if it is a regular occurrence because she should not be used as an alternative to proper support for that teacher and child.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 22:57:47

I knew who vaguely was Statemented
So you guessed who was statemented.

Needless to say this was not openly discussed with me by the school.
Yes, needless to say, other children's SEN status was not openly discussed with you.

My child with a Statement always happened to be placed in groups with un-statemented children with SEN.
Are they children working at a similar academic level to your DC? Would you rather him sit alone with his TA?

Another mother, of one of these children, was pleased when she told me he had a TA to support him on his table that year
So perhaps her DC has gone home and said I'm on a table X,Y,Z and Mrs A. Mother has not realised Mrs A is 121 with a child.

There seem to be a lot of assumptions for the worse on your part, tbh.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 22:57:52

Ask the ta. Ask to speak to the ta about how your child is doing. Ask specific questions about their day. How did they manage with x? We've noticed this happening at home, how did you handle it here?

If there are working with your child in they way they are supposed to they will have immediate answers without the need to refer to the teacher.

If answers are generalised or they say, well I wasn't with him for that session. Then you'll know.

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 22:58:23

Getstuffezd I was nagging my dds primary school for years to back off her with the 121. However the school had very few sn children and most other parents wanted their lsa to be with their child exclusively. It held her back. It held the others back too. That school was a big mistake but I realised too late to move her. She is now in a mainstream secondary where they she has come on leaps and bounds.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 22:59:25

*'If the teacher is getting punched in the face, should the ta ignore that too because it has nothing to do with them?'
Yes, if it is a regular occurrence because she should not be used as an alternative to proper support for that teacher and child.*

You awful human being.

'However, as I'm responsible for planning the work she completes with her charge, and ultimately I'm responsible for the education of the child,'

It's very refreshing to hear you say that, because my experience is that once a child has a TA the teacher ignores them and leaves their education up to someone who knows even less about SEN and almost nothing about education.

Trust me, there are lots of teachers who get the TA to babysit and then blame lack of progress on the disability.

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 23:01:54

Starlight, 5 school s before age 6 says more about you than it does about the schools.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 23:03:23

Yes, Starlight! YOUR EXPERIENCE!!!! That is not what we all do!!!!!!

I suppose technically I wouldn't want a teacher hit, but the teacher is an adult, a small punch is not going to ruin her life chances and put her at risk of never living independently again.

The repercussion of leaving that punch unaddressed to happen again because a child's statemented TA can supervise that child instead of her own leaves a vulnerable child long term without support and a potential lack of education.

THAT is far more awful.

Yes, I like to think so pass

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 23:05:08

What can I say. There are not many who have secured Statements. I know lots of parents, they are friends, we talk to each other and I know how they travel to school. It was obvious.

I don't expect other's SEN to be discussed with me, but if teachers claim my child is receiving full time 1 to 1 and another parent tells me they support their child, what am I supposed to think? She told me after Parents Evening after teachers had told her how they were helping her child!

I don't want my child to sit alone, I want teachers to be honest about support.

No Get. Some teachers are not like that.

But I have been to LA meeting after LA meeting (not all for my own child as I have advocated for other parents too) where blatent flouting of the law with regards to 1:1 is defended on the basis of 'independence developing' shows that this law breaking is a cultural thing and many teachers are EXPECTED to use TAs for other things.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 23:08:47

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 23:09:02

You really don't get it do you? 121 is not always in the best interests of the child, only the people working with the child will know when it is and when it isn't. It is their duty as professionals and human beings to do what is in the childs best interests.

I only hope you children don't pick up on any of this possessive anti-teacher fanaticism

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 23:10:38

starlight I have known many teachers hospitalised and some have been left with permanent problems.

I'm glad you think it is a small problem.

Don't you think if getting support was easy, teachers would just get it for everyone. Especially those who are violent. Are you assuming we like being assaulted?

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 23:14:22

I actually do not want 1 to 1. Knew it was not being received. Yet on paper it was. Teachers claimed it was, whilst obviously squirming. Took far too long to address this situation. Its difficult to prove...

But what is a child that is that violent DOING in a classroom with a teacher unsupported and dangerous, and why should the vulnerable child suffer because of bad management?

I don't want anyone to get hurt, but most especially not a vulnerable child who can't articulate his needs nor trigger an emergency statutory assessment, or exclude a child nor even resign from ever having to enter the school building ever again.

Why should they lose their support because the adults haven't taken responsibility for the other child's needs or the needs of the teacher?

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 23:16:04

Starlight I think you are obsessed with this. It's not healthy. How do you think children learn independence with out actually getting to experience it? You are like a woman possessed.

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 23:18:31

Jesus no wonder some people elect to hide sen threads.

'You really don't get it do you? 121 is not always in the best interests of the child, only the people working with the child will know when it is and when it isn't. It is their duty as professionals and human beings to do what is in the childs best interests.'

No. You don't get it pass. Are you a teacher?

A teacher has no business overriding the quantified and specified provision in a statement. The child's 'best interests' have been identified in careful and in depth multi-agency assessments by people who specialise in SEN and education, and the provision is made for that.

Once written into a statement as the child's needed provision, it is protected by law and no teacher has the legal right to use that provision flexibly, even if they believe it is in the interest of the child to do so.

If teachers could so easily make those kinds of judgements there would be no point in the multi-agency assessments or statement.

Where have I ever said that children are not allowed to experience independence?

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 23:19:42

Again because it isn't that easy to sort out.

Every Child has a right to an education. However getting support whether through advice or funding is very hard. Especially if parents feel that there isn't a problem. Many lea's have moved to a total no exclusion policy so teachers are just bloody stuck.

Don't you think it is easier to teach a whole class and for them all to make progress if they are sufficiently supported? Or are you assuming that we like an extra challenge or just can't be bothered to get help because we like the pain?

ARE you a teacher pass?

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 23:20:00

Whilst I feel for the teachers being attacked by children, if children are left in a state of severe anxiety because their needs are not being met, some will lash out quite suddenly from fear.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 23:20:32

I think you should really stop saying star is a fanatic, or possessed, or horrible, because she disagrees with you.

She is after all only saying that using a TA who is a statement end child's 121 to support other children is illegal. All the personal insults and characterisation are not going to change that.

'Every Child has a right to an education. However getting support whether through advice or funding is very hard.'

Why?

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 23:22:05

I think you'll find this multi agency meetings are about using up the least amount of money they can get away with.

Some of these experts are amazing, some should be shown the door. You really have to much faith in them and not enough in the classroom staff.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 23:22:49

Because nobody wants to pay for it.

My child got the funding and support. The teachers just chose to spend that on other children that they deemed more deserving.

You think that isn't an acceptable reason for removing your child from a school pass?

sugarhiccup2 Wed 25-Sep-13 23:23:50

I don't think Starlight is minimizing assaults on teachers.

I think some of you are deliberately misinterpreting what she is saying.

She is clearly saying that using someone paid to provide 1 to 1 support for a statemented child effectively as a sticking plaster for a very serious problem (a child with serious behavioural issues) is massively inappropriate.

I will also point out that 1 to 1 adult support is not often re-allocated for some sort of in-class Medecins Sans Frontiere. Far less heroically, the 1 to 1 is usually off in another part of the building dealing with traumas no greater than photocopying.

'I think you'll find this multi agency meetings are about using up the least amount of money they can get away with.'

Yes. So when they DO make a recommendation why on earth do some teachers feel that it is overprovision and justify 'sharing' it?

'Some of these experts are amazing, some should be shown the door. You really have to much faith in them and not enough in the classroom staff.'

Honestly? No. I have very little faith in LA Advisory Service personnel.

But the fact still remains that provision specified in a statement HAS to be delivered regardless of the teachers opinion (or the parent's for that matter).

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 23:29:04

Oh hiccup don't I know it and covering PPA time, with a student or one other TA.

sugarhiccup2 Wed 25-Sep-13 23:29:37

Actually, I'm thinking that this thread is really opening my eyes to how resistant many people are to taking SEN/disability seriously.

I don't think I ever knew this before.

It's saddening, but eye-opening.

It is just my opinion but I am rather shocked by the personal insults being levelled at some of the posters here. At Starlight particularly. And the vehemence.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 23:29:44

It's funny how everyone keeps saying that it is so difficult to know what is going on with support in schools yet are absolutely sure that all schools are getting it wrong.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 23:31:33

Hiccup - find me ONE person or ONE quote from someone who appears not to be taking disability or SEN seriously. Please.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 23:31:44

sugarhiccup make assumptions much?

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 23:32:14

But soap teachers are posting that they do use TA on an ad hoc basis and defending their position.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 23:33:31

And yes, I told Starlight to fuck off, but then Starlight comes out with crackers such as
I suppose technically I wouldn't want a teacher hit, but the teacher is an adult, a small punch is not going to ruin her life chances and put her at risk of never living independently again.
which is abysmally, crashingly ignorant.

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 23:35:06

Good god you're all so defensive. This isn't a discussion it's screaming match.

OP is obsessed with 121, she doesn't get that it's not always in the child's best interest. She needs to let go and get on with her life, as I shall now.

Read my posts you will know what I am.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 23:36:02

soap we know but don't as it is not official. Smoke and mirrors, herd of elephants in the room, but proof? It is (very strong) suspicion. I don't see the staff time tabling just through the window or have tried to speak to teachers and find they were in PPA. My child is also pretty reliable regarding details such as who is where, doing what. Organises us or at least attempts to.

Getstuffed, a teacher getting hit should be such a rare occurrence that discussion of whether a 1:1 steps in or not would be immaterial.

If it happens more than once then the teacher and school have failed to adequately make provision for that child, and should not be using a vulnerable child's support to bridge that gap.

The teacher doesn't have to put up with it. The vulnerable child has NO CHOICE but to be in that environment and continue to do so until they reach school leaving age. Often that child will be unable to make the abuse of their support known to their caregivers, making it all the more appalling.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 23:38:13

Where?

Unless I missed the bit where someone said they had a one to one ta watering the marigolds, all I've seen is exactly what I've said. Targeted changes in specific instances.

Yet you still hear, I've sent the ta off to shop in Harvey nicks for the morning. Ohh what a Lark.

zzzzz Wed 25-Sep-13 23:38:25

I'm pretty sure star can cope with the "fuck off", the comments about the schools not working because of her, are monstrous, and so unfair.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 23:38:43

pass Please read my posts again!

I repeat am not obsessed with 1to1. Surely I don't have to quote myself?

'Read my posts you will know what I am'

Sooooooo tempting..........

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 23:41:22

Well I'm glad you've sorted out classroom violence for us Starlight. We were all at such a loss.

We were so enjoying being hit, kicked and bitten that we clean forgot to head down to gringotts and get a fist full of gold coins to pay for some support.

Thank you so much.

sugarhiccup2 Wed 25-Sep-13 23:41:35

I think the system doesn't take SEN seriously enough. And I think that is normalised. Even by people whoe would never dream of telling disablist jokes at a dinner party. That's what I mean.

I truly think that our society has a long, long way to go to make our society - and schools within that - non-disabling.

I find that this thread highlights how far we have to go.

I really do think it should be unacceptable to use allocated hours for photocopying (for example). Employ someone to photocopy. It really shouldn't be acceptable to use a designated learning assistant this way. It says so much about how we, as a society - deep down - regard SEN that this is common practice.

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 23:44:20

Bullshit hiccup. If a ta has to photocopy for the greater good of the school, it is for her charges benefit as well.

Why do those 'gold coins' come from a disabled child?

Why not the HT's salary or an ebayed interactive whiteboard?

sugarhiccup2 Wed 25-Sep-13 23:45:19

I think I'd like a module on SEN to be compulsory in the PGCE.

GetStuffezd Wed 25-Sep-13 23:46:20

I'm pretty sure star can cope with the "fuck off", the comments about the schools not working because of her, are monstrous, and so unfair.
Ok. Except nobody said that, did they?

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 23:46:28

Party of that has to be recognising that while children of all abilities need to be included. All children are still different.

To often there is a one size fits all and it works for very few. My school had many children with needs but all of our children get along. Even when we do have incidents of bullying, it is never along the lines of sen or disability.

Some of the parents are a different matter but hopefully they can help their parents to see that everyone deserves to be treated fairly.

'If a ta has to photocopy for the greater good of the school, it is for her charges benefit as well.'

Ah well, why not get her to clean the toilets as well and sack the cleaner then!

sugarhiccup2 Wed 25-Sep-13 23:48:35

"Bullshit hiccup. If a ta has to photocopy for the greater good of the school, it is for her charges benefit as well."

I am now imagining a Russian Formalist poster, with a square-jawed worker, clutching a sheaf of paper. She is striding towards the sunrise and the legend is something along the lines of: "Photocopy for a Better Future for All". At he feet, small children in overalls beam.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 23:50:53

Because the head teacher and all the staff would have to work for free or start paying the school to work there.
Whiteboards came out of separate funding in the first place. Cannot be sold on as the school has liability for them if they should cause any problems for the new owner. Our lea bans any such activities.

Also whiteboards are useful for engaging a range of children with various issues themselves. Are you saying their education is lex important?

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 23:52:05

soap please don't start slating parents because you think teachers are being criticised. If teachers cannot be considered a cohesive group as professionals, parents certainly can't...as well just people who have reproduced ie huge variety.

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 23:52:10

sugarhiccup stop making me laugh. I'm trying to be all cross and a bit sleepy.

Trigglesx Wed 25-Sep-13 23:53:21

If a ta has to photocopy for the greater good of the school, it is for her charges benefit as well."

Quite probably one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever heard on MN regarding SNs. If my DS1's TA had been pulled to make photocopies, I'd have been livid. The TA is there for DIRECT support of the child, not indirect to benefit the entire school.

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 23:53:25

I hope you lot aren't in my dd's school wasting people's time and keeping you lsas to yourselves. Greedy and selfish, and ultimately bad for your children.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 23:53:49

Well I am going to bed. Goodnight all!

soapboxqueen Wed 25-Sep-13 23:54:14

Yes regards I didn't use the word 'some' at all. It wasn't even a specific incident at my school or anything.

passedgo Wed 25-Sep-13 23:55:25

Ah Triggles, welcome! Another fighter to the fray!

'Also whiteboards are useful for engaging a range of children with various issues themselves. Are you saying their education is lex important?'

I'm saying whiteboards don't raise attainment, teaching does.

I am saying that actually the education of the most vulnerable and deprived IS more important than a child who does not start out with those disadvantages as education in this country is supposed to enable equality and close deprivation gaps.

I am saying that capable children were fully able to learn a long time before IWBs were invented.

I'm saying that having IWBs are not a statutory requirement like meeting the provision within a child's statement is.

Regards Wed 25-Sep-13 23:57:53

Pass- why? The insult?

Tired, yes. Like my food, well a bit too much. But I certainly did not want to fight just for my child to get some sort of education or to protect his reputation with honest reporting.

Earlier you seemed to care. I hope this is just because you are crabby and tired.

I dream of normal.

sugarhiccup2 Wed 25-Sep-13 23:58:29

I completely agree with Trigglesx.

OK. I said I wouldn't give any particulars, for fear of outing myself . But ...

Do you know, I have even visited a school where cleaning the loo was outlined as part of the support worker's job? Dropped into conversation casually by the Head. Really.

sugarhiccup2 Wed 25-Sep-13 23:59:12

That should have read "agree with Triggles and Starlight".

sugarhiccup2 Wed 25-Sep-13 23:59:55

Goodnight Regards.

I'm leaving this thread too. I'm worried I'm going to end up making myself identifiable.

Trigglesx Thu 26-Sep-13 00:00:19

I hope you lot aren't in my dd's school wasting people's time and keeping you lsas to yourselves. Greedy and selfish, and ultimately bad for your children.

Whilst I realise MN likes for us to try to educate people regarding SNs whenever possible, I can't be arsed to waste the effort in this situation.

I have more important things to do with my time. I have no need to justify the allocation of a FT 1:1 to my DS here.

I am, however, very grateful after reading some of these posts, that DS1 went to a MS school that followed the letter of the law and put the child first, regardless of budgeting and staffing pressures.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 00:00:55

I'm sorry but some of the things I can do with my whiteboard to help engage every child in that class absolutely does have an impact greater than I could achieve without it.

I think you have a narrow view of was sen is if you think otherwise.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 00:01:02

Pass sorry. I really am tired. Just realised I misread your whole post.

But do you realise yet I am not obsessed with 1to1?

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 00:01:09

I'm saying whiteboards don't raise attainment, teaching does.
AAAAHAHA!! Teaching? What, by teachers? Those devious thieves who scupper your child's education by shamelessly re-allocating support and selfishly getting clobbered because they can't be arsed to get violent pupils removed? Im surprised you credit them with the ability to make a sandwich, let alone raise the attainment of 30 kids, to be honest.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 00:02:08

Or did I? Bed now for me methinks.

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 00:05:07

I am, however, very grateful after reading some of these posts, that DS1 went to a MS school that followed the letter of the law and put the child first, regardless of budgeting and staffing pressures.
I'm glad he did, too. I teach in one of those. Ofsted seem to agree we're doing it right, hence our outstanding rating. But according to those on this thread some of my practises are illegal. You'd think it'd get picked up somewhere.

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 00:05:30

*practices. Sigh.

'I'm sorry but some of the things I can do with my whiteboard to help engage every child in that class absolutely does have an impact greater than I could achieve without it.'

I'm not denying that. Nor am I even denying that if you excluded the child with SEN, sold his TA into slavery and used the money for a vegetable garden and hired David Beckham as the sports coach to attract middle-class families with private tutors to supplement half the schools SATs grades, - the school would move up the results league tables and arguably do better for ALL the children within the school.

But that 'ain't the point!

How could illegal use of the TA be picked up?

The only people who can police it are parents of the children with disabilities who are often exhausted from dealing with and fighting for their children, and often have disabilities themselves.

This is why it is all the more alarming that the law is being flouted so readily.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 00:13:28

I'm sorry but the only way to pick up anything not right in any service or business is to be involved.

There is no easy answer.

happy with my daughter's education. Her teachers are excellent at teaching her.

My ds with ASD? Not so.

Teachers are trained to teach NT children with SEN as either an optional add-on during their initial course or as part of their very limited CPD if they are 'lucky/unlucky'.

The quality of SEN training for staff is extremely poor, at least the training I have been too (and I seen quite a bit). It is centred on how to lower your expectations, get the child who desperately needs interaction and communication practice mutely dependent on picture schedules so no adult support is needed to contain them in a mainstream classroom whilst they fail.

How can you be involved soap?

I attended everything and got written into the statement 10min fortnightly meeting with class teacher and TA.

There were no vacancies on the governors and another of the schools that I went to the HT and Chair of BOG dismissed the application of a man with Aspergers and didn't even present his application to the rest of the meeting.

A different school told me on the first day that there was no way my ds' allocated 1:1 was going to be 1:1 with him as there were more severely needy children in his class, and so he came home with me immediately never to return.

Another school had a 1:1 and to be fair she was allocated full-time, but was SO badly trained whilst she meant well she did more harm than good and had no understanding of him so I removed him from there too.

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 00:26:09

The quality of SEN training for staff is extremely poor, at least the training I have been too (and I seen quite a bit). It is centred on how to lower your expectations, get the child who desperately needs interaction and communication practice mutely dependent on picture schedules so no adult support is needed to contain them in a mainstream classroom whilst they fail.

What on earth kind of SEN training have you been attending? I've worked in 4 LAs and thank fuck the SEN is a little more rigorous than this. I can see how your views have been coloured, but (and I really am going to bed now) I am so offended by your resolute attitude that the majority of teachers know nothing about SEN and selfishly pinch their support where possible, leaving their kids alone and stuck.

The teachers on the thread seem to have conceded there are schools that there are schools that fall short of the mark, but you don't mention a single experience of a school or teacher who's done well, or gone above and beyond.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 00:26:15

That training is delivered by the people who have used their vast knowledge to put a statement together. So their training for staff is crap but not their recommendations for children with sen?

Do we think it is a conspiracy to badly prepare staff? shock

See my post, two below yours getstuffed where I have mentioned my dd's excellent teachers.

Incidently my parenting experiences of this subject are across 3 LA's, my voluntary experiences and professional experiences, considerably more.

Schools are failing our children with SEN due to their attitudes, ignorance about SEN and the culture and context within which they work.

Teachers work within that culture. Many teachers think it is okay to disregard the contents of a child's statement because it is 'contradictory', 'doesn't make sense', 'barmy' (according to the first thread linked in the OP).

These are not reasons to deny a child their specified support and to do so is to break the law.

In my experience (and I have a substantial amount now) it is the advisory services that put the training together, not multi-agency services.

It is also my experience that a decent specified and quantified statement will have significant input from experts independent from the Local Authority.

'Do we think it is a conspiracy to badly prepare staff? shock'

More like apathy.

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 00:36:47

Yes I did see what you said about your daughter's teacher, so I'll rephrase. You don't say a single positive thing about mainstream teachers' teaching of children with SEN. At all.

I have seen it with physical disabilities. I have never seen it with developmental disabilities. I doubt many teachers would agree, because they don't know what they don't know and many MANY teachers would refuse to be 'educated' by a mere parent.

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 00:47:04

I doubt many teachers would agree, because they don't know what they don't know and many MANY teachers would refuse to be 'educated' by a mere parent.

Breathtaking arrogance. Quite frankly I'd rather stick nails in my eyes than be "educated" by someone with your bawling, patronising sledgehammer manner. Couldn't give a shit if someone's a parent or not, but if someone told me "I wasn't aware of what I wasn't aware of" they'd get pretty short shrift. Do we refuse to be educated by parents who come in and show us how to administer Epi pens? Or spot signs of an epileptic fit? No. But we would bristle at someone who came in with a terrible "you know nothing attitude." As would anyone.

zzzzz Thu 26-Sep-13 00:47:08

GetStufezed. Would you believe there was a problem if Mums told you? Because you could just go and pose the question on the sn board. The question is what would you do if 20% of the Mums said they had no positive experience, what if it's 50%, what if it's more than that?

How can we apologies for the reality we're living?

randomAXEofkindness Thu 26-Sep-13 00:49:31

My sister-in-law is a teaching assistant who works one to one with an autistic child for most of the day in a regular primary school. His parents (his dad is a GP) have put him on a strict gluten free diet - I don't know whether it is because he has tested gluten intolerant or whether they are considering a link between gluten and autism. But my SIL laughed her head off as she told me that she takes him in Jammie Dodgers as a secret 'treat' and lets him share her sandwiches. She thought his parents were just 'being tight' hmm

zzzzz Thu 26-Sep-13 00:50:22

Funnily enough you've hit the nail on the head in a round about way because seizures and epipens are on the whole dealt with in quite a straight forward manner.

Rigidity, non compliance, phobias are rather harder to get across. Not just to teachers, to everyone.

zzzzz Thu 26-Sep-13 00:52:31

random shock. How really horrid of her.

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 00:55:42

Who wants apologies? Not me! I want acknowledgement that MANY schools do the absolute best for SEN children and give them their legal support, enabling them to progress and be happy.

And you're entirely wrong about seizures. There hundreds of types and variations of seizures, which makes dealing with them completely UN straightforward.

An epileptic fit cannot be ignored in the same way as bottled up anxiety can, or masked confusion, or avoidance strategies dressed up as ignorance. It cannot be denied in the ways these things can either.

And it cannot be blamed on the parents.

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 00:58:15

And who is denying these things? Who is blaming the parents? Is it ALL schools? ALL teachers?
Or some?

zzzzz Thu 26-Sep-13 01:00:40

I know too fucking much an awful lot about seizures. I meant dealing with schools about them is relatively straight forward. Consultant, care plan, training.

zzzzz Thu 26-Sep-13 01:03:05

"Who wants apologies? Not me! I want acknowledgement that MANY schools do the absolute best for SEN children and give them their legal support, enabling them to progress and be happy."

But I don't know that, in fact what I have experienced and read is the exact opposite.

Well I haven't come across one who hasn't, except for my dd's nursery teacher who I wonder would have been half as competent had she had to deal with me as ds' nursery teacher.

And I have dealt with a lot of schools having moved 5 times in 7 years and worked in schools in a professional capacity albeit not in SEN, but enough to have seen some scary attitudes about SEN which I can now understand ARE scary in hindsight with my more recent experiences.

'I want acknowledgement that MANY schools do the absolute best for SEN children and give them their legal support, enabling them to progress and be happy.'

I can say only that most teachers do care about the children in their charge and do their best in the context of their circumstances and ignorance about SEN and their prejudices against parents of children with SEN.

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 01:06:26

Well I feel very said that you haven't met some of the brilliantly dedicated teachers there are in the UK who manage to help SEN children reach their full potential, very, very sad.
A shame you don't acknowledge they are out there. As someone with such a passion maybe you could have shared ideas, practices and strategies with such teachers.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 01:07:53

Then what was the point of this thread Starlight when you are so sure we are all shit and plan ways to ignore children who need support?

seriously.

Thank you. That is my plan.

I didn't start the thread.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 01:11:12

I was referring to the comments not the title. I appreciate it was badly worded.

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 01:12:58

Thank you. That is my plan.
Well bloody good luck going in with the attitude that everyone's shit and dishonest!

Zzzz - my experience of hip surgeons is entirely negative, the only experience I have of them is fuck-ups, yet I have enough common sense to realise this PROBABLY doesn't mean all hip surgeons are incompetents.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 01:16:15

getstuffezd stop being all logical.

It will get thou no where fast.

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 01:17:52

I know, soapbox. Must...make...brain....switch off! Need bloody sleep!

My reasons for posting is to ensure that people, parents, parents of children with SEN, worried and betrayed TAs, good teachers, those thinking of going into teaching, journalists, lurkers, professionals in other countries and researchers are made aware of :

- how badly children with disabilities in the UK are failed
- how opaque our education system is
- how terribly parents of children with disabilities are treated
- how little training teachers get with regards to SEN
- how often the law is broken for seemingly 'common sense' reasons
- how impossible it is to police a child with a disabilities provision
- how defensive teachers can be
- how hard won support can be reallocated at the whim of a teacher and without knowledge of the parents

Where have I said that everyone is shit and dishonest?

But if you'd seen a number of crap hip surgeons and set up a support group for post-surgery hip correcting and 99% of them had also had a number of bad experiences, and then you found out that the hip surgeons were actually elbow surgeons who had suddenly found themselves responsible for hips too with very little training.................

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 01:23:54

- how badly children with disabilities in the UK are failed all of them?
- how opaque our education system is all of it?
- how terribly parent of children with disabilities are treated all of them?
- how little training teachers get with regards to SEN all of us?
- how often the law is broken for seemingly 'common sense' reasons you have figures?
- how impossible it is to police a child with a disabilities provision do we ALL need policing?perhaps we can be trusted?
- how defensive teachers can be understandable, see previous posts
- how hard won support can be reallocated at the whim of a teacher and without knowledge of the parents discussed at length on thread.

Well, I hope you find some schools that impress you as you'll need some good examples to hold up as models of good practice, won't you?

zzzzz Thu 26-Sep-13 01:25:13

Yes get but if you had two children with sn, and had been reading the sn board for far too many years, and didn't hear great things, how can you claim that MANY schools are doing a god job?.

I just have no evidence of that.

Are you interested at all in the experience of Mums with kids with sn? Because just saying everything is great doesn't make it so. Ask them, just ask.

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 01:27:47

Are you interested at all in the experience of Mums with kids with sn?
Er, yes. Three of my children this year are statemented. I care very much what their parents thing. Luckily we talk regularly and co operate. None of us have an agenda apart from ensuring the best for the children. They don't cast generalisations about my colleagues/qualifications/classroom management and I don't question their parenting. It works great!

zzzzz Thu 26-Sep-13 01:29:42

But have you ever asked them if they feel "MANY schools do the absolute best for SEN children and give them their legal support, enabling them to progress and be happy."?

Actually, Bangor is pretty good as an LA. I'd send my child to one of their schools.

Perhaps you're in Bangor Get?

I met some amazing teachers from there. They invited me to come and visit their schools to show me the work they are doing and how much progress their children with SEN are making. Some of these 'ordinary' teachers are carrying out research, refining and adapting their strategies and then publishing their results. I am hoping to learn more from them. I was VERY impressed.

zzzzz Thu 26-Sep-13 01:31:25

It might of course be better to ask ones who are free to answer without fear of repercussion.

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 01:32:39

Why on earth would I? Of course I haven't!
That doesn't mean there ARENT many schools that blah blah blah. Because there are.
This is silly. We will never agree with what the other is saying And are probably at the stage where we will wilfully misunderstand.
IPad is now OFF!
Good night!

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 01:33:19

Sorry Starlight but I though we could refine and adapt strategies because we didn't know what the hell we were doing?

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 01:33:50

That should be couldn't

GetStuffezd Thu 26-Sep-13 01:34:04

I am framing your post of 01:30 grin
books tickets to Bangor

zzzzz Thu 26-Sep-13 01:37:29

You say there are, but how can the rest of us say that if we have no evidence of that? confused

wow lots of reading this morning.

sadly i'm left with the impression that some parents would be outraged if whilst their child was doing fantastically on a task their ta had the compassion to give 2minutes attention and care to another child who needed a bit of help whilst the teacher was busy helping 28 other kids get on with the task.

a statement means extra support for the child statemented and of course they should get that but it doesn't mean they become the only important child in the room. if you have two adults in a room who have chosen to work with children and in education because they care about children and education do you really find it so surprising that those adults feel compelled to help all children as needed?

if my job was to work with child x it wouldn't mean sticking my butt on a chair next to child x and willfully ignoring every other child and the realities of what was going on in the wider group dynamic. if child x is doing fine and child y sat nearby was clearly struggling why the fuck would i ignore child y's need rather than turn and give him a few minutes attention and support? i wouldn't have to be 'nabbed' to do so, it would be a natural, resourceful response that allowed for the maximisation of my usefulness in my role.

tbh after reading this i'm thinking the whole statementing system needs scrapping and instead every class should have a high level ta whose time is allocated as needed in the context of that class rather than this whole individualistic that's for my child, my child's funding is paying for that malarchy.

that was a bit of knee jerk reaction sorry.

what i really think is that we need to rethink how inclusion works and what it actually needs in order to work.

inclusion to my mind shouldn't mean everybody altogether, all day every day in the same room. schools could do with sen classrooms and resource centres and children with extra needs need to be able to float between ms lessons and that resource centre where more specialised help is available.

so literacy lessons tailored to children with dyslexia or learning difficulties around that area could be run in that centre by specialised staff for example. a child might have one a lesson a day in that centre of that specialised nature and that would count as part of their provision and imo be a hell of a lot better value for money and better for educational outcomes than a bum on a seat next to them in a classroom having a lesson on the great fire of london.

inclusion to means needing specialists on site who are able to provide specialist support still in the same building but allowing for a flow between specialist support and provision and mainstream inclusion.

i also think that support centre would be where you have counsellors, where you run anxiety management classes or work on specific behaviours that need addressing.

if schools are expected to be doctors, psychologists, educators, nurses, etc then give them the facilities and the specialists to be all of that.

sure you could enforce a unit on sen onto teacher training but realistically it's still going to be superficial because it's such a broad area and no one professional be they teacher, doctor, whatever can know everything about everyone's condition. if schools now need to meet the needs of mentally ill children, physically disabled children, developmentally delayed children etc etc then put the professionals and the resources for dealing with those children in the school instead of pretending a teacher can be everything rolled into one for 25k a year.

'it would be a natural, resourceful response that allowed for the maximisation of my usefulness in my role.'

But your role wouldn't be to maximise your usefulness. If that were the case an argument could be easily made for justifying ignoring the child with SEN as they can only make x amount of progress with your input as opposed to the whole class making 3 times that.

THAT is why the law protects the child's provision.

your ignoring the common sense reality that if child x is doing fine and child y needs a bit of help any self respecting adult would turn and help child y.

'if my job was to work with child x it wouldn't mean sticking my butt on a chair next to child'

I should hope not. I would hope instead you'd be considering your behaviour including where and how you sit in the context of how it maximises the progress of the child you are funded for, even if that time is spent in thought or observing to assess improvement or fluency opportunities.

Who defines 'doing fine'?

How do you know?

And if you DO know, why not feed into the annual review process your professional opinion and request that the wording of the statement is changed to 'At times when the class teacher thinks the child is doing fine, this resource can be used for whole class support'.

Otherwise you are breaking the law and depriving a vulnerable child of his entitlement as well as hoodwinking the parents.

'Common Sense' is not above the law.

And I suspect the sense you are referring to is the 'common' behaviour of teachers rather than an expert consensus.

'every class should have a high level ta whose time is allocated as needed in the context of that class'

Well perhaps, but that is an entirely different argument from a statemented 1:1. The two are not interchangeable. If a teacher needs a HLTA they need to raise that with their schools and get one as well, not ever use the 1:1 in that capacity.

'inclusion to means needing specialists on site who are able to provide specialist support still in the same building but allowing for a flow between specialist support and provision and mainstream inclusion.'

Well yes, but they will also need a specialist in the classroom when they attend to support their inclusion.

Units exist but they don't work as they tend to be the opposite of inclusion and more of a 'holding pen' during literacy and numeracy which is often the areas most accessible to the children with the most common SEN (ASD) as the structure makes it possible with support to attend.

Instead they are banished from those lessons and then 'included' for the group stuff and abstract stuff and expected to cope totally unsupported.

PolterGoose Thu 26-Sep-13 09:44:34

The difficulty with what you suggest swallowed is that a bog standard MS primary will not have enough children with the same difficulties at the same level to warrant separate provision. That is, to an extent, what special schools are for.

The TA should be the interface between the child, the teacher and the expert professionals. A decent TA will be able to translate professionals' recommendations into the classroom environment. As well as 1-1 and tailored support the TA should be the child's advocate in school, especially with a child like mine who is highly articulate but completely unable to verbalise his own needs. The TA should be better trained in whatever SNs s/he is dealing with than the teacher.

Using a TA for photocopying gives a clue as to how TAs are often viewed, as menial support staff. This is wrong. It is wrong that the children with the most complex needs are often supported by the least experienced, poorly paid and undervalued members of school staff.

The thing is, it really shouldn't be that hard to support many of the children with disabilities and SENs in our MS schools. Most of the 'reasonable adjustments' my ds needs are quite minor and are free, but getting them has been a battle which never ends.

'sure you could enforce a unit on sen onto teacher training but realistically it's still going to be superficial because it's such a broad area and no one professional be they teacher, doctor, whatever can know everything about everyone's condition.'

Whilst this is true, a lot of it could be overcome by good training in data-driven evidence-based practice. You don't HAVE to know the ins and outs of a condition, you just have to know behavioural techniques that ensure engagement and motivation and how to recognise that in children for whom traditional and 'typical' motivations like pleasing the teacher or not making their peers cross, don't apply.

There is a lot of classroom management training, but that is about applying behavioural techniques to encourage compliance. There is very little of this in terms of encouraging LEARNING in teacher training.

Class teachers give the children tangible rewards for doing whatever makes the teaching workable i.e. stickers, golden time, moving up rockes/rainbows, allowed to take the register to reception etc. but when it comes what makes school and learning workable for the child all of a sudden children are expected to have intrinsic motivation and simply 'want' to learn.

For most kids this is fine and they can understand that there is a pay off somewhere, but many children with SEN just can't see what's in it for them.

And all that Polter said.

That is a point too Polter. Most of my ds' needed provision was free too, and simply needed a reasonable adjustment. Because that adjustment wasn't made, he needed a TA to try and prevent, and then often repair, the damage caused by that adjustment not being made.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 09:53:40

Swallowed Have you read the information I posted up-thread about the change to funding legislation which includes changes to SEN funding legislation?

Teachers should be asking right now for support for children with SEN as more funds for that purpose have been given upfront to schools. Schools now have to fund the initial 6k of additional support before extra funds are applied for.

However this money is not ring-fenced, it is up to the school to decide how to spend this money. So start engaging with your SMT now, if you think you need more support for children with SEN before the money is spent elsewhere.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 10:04:28

sadly i'm left with the impression that some parents would be outraged if whilst their child was doing fantastically on a task their ta had the compassion to give 2minutes attention and care to another child who needed a bit of help whilst the teacher was busy helping 28 other kids get on with the task.

I would not be outrages but I would like it formally recognised my child could cope with this and a note made of how often they were coping with this kind of occurrence.

It is important because it shows their progression, if they are coping well. If they do not cope well, well they need the support as outlined on their Statement, which they are entitled to.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 10:04:47

^outraged

I would be outraged. Because if the teacher can't cope with the rest of her class then she should make this known to the school rather than relying on a child's statemented 1:1 to help her.

Can any teacher on here REALLY deny that often, having a statemented child's 1:1 their classroom puts them further down the list wrt being allocated a class TA?

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 10:14:03

Swallowed your statement I quoted does actually make me smile a little bit. My DC would, at one time, actually (helpfully) point out other children in the class that needed help to the TA, to get rid of her attention.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 10:15:24

I understand Starlight, I'm all for making it known.

offs - you're talking about an adult turning round and answering a spelling question or answering, 'what did she say to do after question 3 miss?' to a child who doesn't realise he's not allowed to talk to the ta unless he's got a statement saying he owns her hmm really? you want that recorded and assessed? ffs.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 10:19:32

Swallowed if it actually takes up a significant proportion of the TA's time it is important to make a note of it. I've explained why...

If a note is made it is less of a shock when a change in need does occur, there is less to prove.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 10:21:35

Otherwise its a slippery slope....

tues, 10.13am, ta turned and said, 'f, r, i, e, n, d' to jonny smith. this interaction took 4.2 seconds and appeared to be of no detriment to ta's charge who was busy writing for those 4.2 seconds. however it should be noted that 4.2seconds of the child's 1:1 provision was 'stolen' and is now owed or perhaps the fact that they coped suggests their time allowance of 1:1 support should be reduced by 4.2 seconds? nb: must write a 2000word report on this major incident and call a conference to discuss it's ramifications and must inform parents, psychologists and uncle tom cobbly within 24hrs.

slippery slope? for crying out loud.

yes i'm afraid i did let your child die in a fire when i could have helped them but legally i'm not allowed you see as i'm employed to give 1:1 support to child y and it's a slippery slope if i start bending that.

Yes it's a slippery slope.

Your ''harmless' one off answer to another child's question' is another teachers ''harmless weekly half hour bout of photocopying''.

That's why you can't 'interpret' the law.

Parents are the only ones who are motivated enough to hold schools to account so imo you are morally obligated to tell them if the TA is being used for anything other than that which is specified in the statement.

If they aren't happy there are legal courses of action available to them, but if you don't tell them they can't use them.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 10:27:54

Swallowed Now, now, calm down dear.

You know you are exaggerating. I said 'significant' amount of time. Maybe to be noted in Home School Diary, if they are kept. Maybe to be discussed at termly Review Meetings or Annual review Meetings.

Wouldn't take much...and could be very informative regarding how well a child has been coping with the amount of support they had been receiving.

why are you assuming teachers don't do that? lots on here have already said they do.

but some people's ideas of what it is like to sit in a roomful of young children seem totally unrealistic.

you can't spend the whole time staring at one child and never being interacted with by others.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 10:32:13

Swallowed In any case you will have to start coping with more accountability regarding what resources have been received by individual children for their additional needs, if you want to get extra support. Have you read the new legislation?

you know i can see it's stressful to feel you have to be on guard for your child all the time and to have to fight to get them the help they need. i suspect though there's a point where that fight can turn over into something else and become obsessive and controlling to the point of unhealthy.

As a parent, I would not use the legal system for a TA's occasional answering of questions of the other children (provided that I was quite certain that in those 4.2 seconds a vital and rare attempt at social initiation from my child was missed and left unsupported, or any other need that they had.

However, if it became regular or increased intensity and unaddressed by the teacher as a resource need for the other children then I would.

I most certainly would for a weekly half hour photocopying assignment but then, no school that I have had experience of would ever tell me, and if I suspected or saw with my own eyes that that is what happened I'd get a spiel about how the class teacher had made an executive decision that my ds needed to learn independence all by himself, without being taught it and an insistence that it was a one off, even though other parents regularly tell me that said TA is always at the flipping photocopier.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 10:33:08

Swallowed that is the whole point I'm not assuming. Speaking for personal experience here.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 10:33:28

^from

i can only recommend that if you are this passionate about your child's education you educate them yourselves or become a teacher. if, as it appears, you really believe schools and teachers are so utterly incompetent, dishonest and out to ruin things for your child why are you sending your child there?

we'll end up with a new DSM entry along the lines of munchausens by proxy (sp) but with teachers and schools as the attention source rather than health professionals at this rate.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 10:37:29

you know i can see it's stressful to feel you have to be on guard for your job all the time and to have to fight to get the the help you need. i suspect though there's a point where that fight can turn over into something else and become obsessive and controlling to the point of unhealthy.

See what I did here?

As a parent, you don't start your child at a school with suspicion in your eyes, with fight in your heart.

You arrive humble and hopeful.

You are let down.

You spend a while trying to get to the bottom of why and you are told to trust the school.

You try.

You are let down again.

You raise it and are lied to.

Rinse and repeat for several years whilst that gap between your child and their peers increases and is blamed on their disability.

A sense of hurt and sadness hits you with regards to your bad luck so you seek out others with children like yours. And you hear your story back at you, often worse. And then again, and again.

And so you ask reasonable teachers on an internet forum 'why? why do you do this?'

And they reply 'You can't expect us to adhere to the law, that would be ridiculous!'.

nope, as i explained yesterday it's not my job anymore - i left teaching a while back.

yes, i see what you did there but the reality is that teachers are actually far too busy teaching whole classes of kids and planning for each and everyone of them's development and progress and provision to develop obsessive control issues in the same way that parents can.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 10:44:03

Hmmm gone into psychiatry by any chance swallowed?

I suspect not...

'if, as it appears, you really believe schools and teachers are so utterly incompetent, dishonest and out to ruin things for your child why are you sending your child there?'

I'm not.

But the point is, I've done years of research and started with the advantage of education being within my professional work to begin with, as well as luckily, aspects of the law and Local Authority Policy.

It took me 3 years of constant challenge to finally understand the depth and deception of the culture in schools and LAs and how badly my child was being failed. It would be utterly impossible for the majority of other parents to do that or even know what questions to ask.

What, do you suggest I do about that, other than highlight the issues in places like this?

ok - so you don't actually even use schools? you home educate? and your purpose of this thread then isn't about learning more or understanding things as you said given you don't even use a school so what is it about?

sorry - mixed up OP and another poster. ignore my last post then.

Not quite sure that you mean by that. My whole family and extended are teachers, and they're all flipping control freaks with some kind of brainwashed ideals that meant they were my first 'challenge' when I realised things were very wrong.

They are now onside and absolutely horrified at the behaviour of their colleagues and admit that they were absolutely unaware of how bad things were, - as I showed them evidence and research and policy and law documents that they never even knew existed that were totally ignored, flouted or simply remained unknown, and certainly not adhered to.

My ds attends and independent special school now.

He's too capable for the provision that is available in most mainstream schools and would be (and was) one of the first to lose his HLTA for 'other duties'.

I could not be a teacher because his holidays do not co-inside with state terms and he needs his education supplemented at that time. Additionally, I have 2 younger children and a teachers salary would not cover them in childcare.

But, if that was all taken care of, I would LOVE to be a teacher, though not especially keen on the idea of demanding that the HT give me a class TA to take the class occasionally n order for me to help me provide an education for the undiagnosed and therefore difficult children as I am unwilling to stick them in a group with the statemented child and his 1:1 and break the law.

I don't imagine it would get me promoted very fast.

But, that aint the point is it?

zzzzz Thu 26-Sep-13 11:02:40

Actually turning round and talking to other children/adults IS a huge problem for my ds, but I don't know how usual that is for others. Focus is very difficult for him, as is working put who is talking to who and what applies to him. Like most children with sn he has siblings so as parents we understand that sort of juggling.

I think these examples are silly though, and am far more concerned that TAs are being used for others support/photocopying/working in other rooms.

Sadly swallowed a lot of children with sn don't go to school because we can't get this right for them and after reading this thread I know there will be a lot of Mums of children with sn considering HE who probably wouldn't have and who's children could have managed primary school in MS.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 11:08:05

zzzzzz nobody is suggesting that ta's abandoning their child to do photocopying etc is right.

I'm not so sure.

When you switch 'abandon' to 'helping them to develop independence', all of a sudden photocopying is positively beneficial to the child.

What about when you switch 'abandon' for 'taking a group of children within which the TA's child is placed'? Is that wrong?

I certainly hope you think so.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 11:29:25

starlight if really cannot see the difference between carefully crafted opportunities for children to progress and depriving a child of support, then I fail to see the purpose of this conversation.

I really wish you would stop making out that all children with support fit one mould and must be supported in one way. Your child may need one thing, mine needs something else. However they both may need 1 to 1 on a statement of provision.

While I do understand that some schools do ride fast and lose (and have already discussed why it occurs), demanding that teachers cannot use their professional judgement in order to best support a child is throwing the baby out with the Bath water. Good practise will disappear in a race to the middle. The minutes will become the focus not the progression.

I've already suggested ways that parents can police this. In the end if you don't trust the school, they're is nothing they can put in place to reassure you.

The only way to change the situation in those schools where it does occur is to have more funding so that statements are quicker and easier to obtain and so that children before the statutory assessment stage can get the support they need.

this thread is horrible for that reason imo - scaremongering that will cause some parents terrible anxiety about sending their children to school.

missinglalaland Thu 26-Sep-13 11:34:08

I read the original linked thread. Disgusting, but clearly trolls and the bottom of the professional barrel having a whinge.

The real life teachers I have encountered are much more like the teachers on this thread who have explained and tried to soothe the worried parents on this thread with endless patience.

The teachers responding on this thread have made me more confident than ever with the state school system and more awed then ever about what the average teacher manages to accomplish.

Shrilly demanding your rights and taking away ever more discretion from classroom teachers would only make things far worse. Individual teachers efforts and professional nous and opinion are the best part of an imperfect system.

If things seem wrong at your particular school, you need to address it directly. If you have tried half a dozen schools and they were all terrible, then you probably need to examine your own expectations.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 11:36:42

Remind me Soapbox How can parents police this?

Swallowed I'm sorry I started the thread..I thought it might bring to light some of the issues - on all sides.sad

zzzzz Thu 26-Sep-13 11:38:02

Don't statements ever say this child needs at least 1:2 or 3 or 5? Is it 1:1 or nothing?

Scaremongering implies fuelling unfounded fears.

zzzzz Thu 26-Sep-13 11:40:48

You have absolutely no idea how scary it is to send a vulnerable child with sn to school, or how difficult it is to do it again after you have been failed.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 11:41:12

soapbox Have you read the new funding legislation?

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 11:46:40

In all fairness regards looking at you thread title, it wasn't like you were coming from a neutral standpoint.

My point was that in any event the only way to know that your child is receiving what they need was to police the school as a parent. No law or outside agency can ever guarantee anything all of the time.

For my own ds I ask him, although he struggles to make sense of what is asked and to properly formulate answers. I ask various adults eg his helper or teacher or anyone else. When something happens I question what led up to something, why was this not done etc. Staff don't get their stories straight before hometime so its usually easy to pick up on inconsistencies.

I trust the staff at my son's school to do a good job but I also appreciate the reality of a busy school with more than one child with additional needs.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 11:47:09

missinglalaland Do you have DC with SEN? What expectations do you think are reasonable?

meh you started the thread to bash teachers and schools and spread the idea of a conspiracy to abuse children with sn of their rights.

i have to agree that if you run through five schools in a year then yes, it is your expectations that need examining, not the schools.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 11:49:08

When does the new funding program come into play? Is it now or next year?

I know exactly what it feels like to take a child with additional needs into school when things aren't exactly working out very well. Thank you.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 11:51:28

soapbox I don't come from a neutral standpoint though do I? Why lie about it?

I have a particular perspective because I have particular experiences. I wanted to know about other's experiences. I was upset although not entirely shocked about what I had read. Why was I not shocked? Because of what I had encountered in real life. I wanted to know about other's viewpoints. Sorry if it is scaremongering, I just wanted to know about what is out there.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 11:52:11

soapbox Now, being rolled out as we speak.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 11:54:22

I have not run through 5 schools in a year, nor my child. I don't judge people who have, I would be interested about what had happened.

swallowed if all you feel is 'meh' why bother to contribute?

to counter the scaremongering and hysteria and reassure parents capable of being rational that things really aren't as you are portraying and it really is possible for teachers and parents to work together positively.

i don't feel 'meh' about the topic but about your pretense of why you started this thread. re: maybe 'meh' wasn't the right word but it seemed more polite than saying 'bullshit'

and there have been rational parents on here able to see pictures bigger than just their all consuming obsessiveness over their child's entitlement thank god. i find that quite reassuring.

i've been a teacher, i am a parent, i remained a rational human being across both positions. glad i'm not the only one.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:03:36

Swallowed Why do you think I started this thread then?

Tell me about my own hidden motivations (that I know nothing about).

i thought it was teachers who didn't know what they think they know? and you who was able to read their minds...

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:05:57

swallowed Where did I say I was a mind reader?

missinglalaland Thu 26-Sep-13 12:06:59

Regards you sound overwrought and unreasonable.

You are attacking all the wrong people. To get whatever it is that you want, you are going to have to address your concerns with your child's school.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:09:06

Oh. I didn't think I had actually attacked anyone. Asked questions, yes.

Who says I have not addressed my concerns?

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:09:39

To the school that is.^

you are flagrantly attacking teachers and accusing them of all sorts of awful things and imagining levels of power and control onto them that they simply do not possess.

so yes you're attacking the wrong people. your issues are with a system controlled by people much further up the food chain, the teachers like you are simply trying to do their best with the craptastic situation of reality that they're left to fend for the children in their care in.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:12:28

What about sugarhiccup's professional experience?

you're also, understandably, coming at this in a completely mono-focus way (my child, my child's needs, *my child's rights, etc) that teachers just cannot have and should not have because they have to address the needs of all children in their care.

missinglalaland Thu 26-Sep-13 12:14:55

This is tedious, and frankly not helping anyone. I really do wish everyone's children the very best.

good bye

well there's talk of squeezing and fiddling and other vague references that seem to point to 1:1 support sometimes being stretched to accommodating a bit more than just one child's needs. i appreciate from the mono focus that sounds awful but for those of us focusing on more than just our own children and knowing what it is actually like in a busy classroom it just sounds like the reality of a really stretched system being held up by adults who genuinely care about all of the children in the room that they are in.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:16:22

Can you not see not adhering to a child Statement and not telling anyone about it is detrimental to that child, as it distorts their need? It also distorts the need of the other children who are being helped by a Statemented child's designated support, if no one is told.

I just want the TRUTH to be told.

and to hear someone saying they actually object to their child's ta sparing a minute to tell another child how to spell something is far more shocking to me. it reveals a level of selfishness and entitlement that would totally undermine a social process like education if allowed to continue.

you're being told the truth - you just don't like it. the truth is they're doing their best in a stretched system. the truth is it's all bloody hands on deck and surviving as best as possible.

if that means a ta spares five minutes from intensive one on one in your faceness with your child to enable the lesson to continue then tough shit frankly.

welcome to reality.

do you think ANY child gets every, single thing they need every single moment of the day?

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:19:29

swallowed I never said that though did I? Time and time again I have said I'm happy if a child can cope with the situation described above. But it needs to be communicated.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:20:52

I was pleased (extremely) when my child no longer needed 1 to 1 support.

every child can cope with that for gods sake. no child in ms school needs a person glued to their side staring straight at them 24hrs a day. as if this needs reporting? when your child is at home are you sat right beside them staring at them every minute? or are you able to give them your 1:1 support whilst also getting on with running your household or having a wee?

IF tas are being sent off to clean the loos instead of doing their jobs then YES obviously that's an issue.

if parents are getting their knickers in a knot because their child's ta has another child sitting at the table with them now and then who they help out a bit at the same time then no i'm afraid that is not an issue. unless the issue is the outrageous selfishness and sense of entitlement of the parent.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:23:50

Oh swallowed Designated 1 to 1 support, as in the support assigned to additional needs.

Started off needing this, no longer does. Of course it needs reporting. No wonder the system is in the state it is in.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 12:26:43

If a child makes progress then of course I would share it. Who wouldn't?

If they didn't then the trail wouldn't continue and it would be brought up at the next review.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:27:07

No talking about another child merely sat a table either. Talking about being given no extra TA support (compared to the other children who had no SEN). TA not in same room, TA taking whole class etc.

hazeyjane Thu 26-Sep-13 12:29:38

Do you know what, I am in the process of applying for a primary place for ds at the moment, we are hoping he will get a place at learning unit for children with complex needs within a ms setting.

He is 3, and I don't need this thread to have made me feel worried for my ds. Already we have had constant battles with the sn nursery he attended and now the preschool he attends.

you know i can see it's stressful to feel you have to be on guard for your child all the time and to have to fight to get them the help they need. i suspect though there's a point where that fight can turn over into something else and become obsessive and controlling to the point of unhealthy.

This^^ makes me seethe, because i have heard this attitude aimed at other parents by the nursery/preschool staff,and know that the same has probably been said about me.

I don't know if it is one of the myths addressed in the This is My Child campaign, but this stuff about controlling parents and quips about munchausens by proxy is horseshit.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:30:09

Thing is it wasn't....Very difficult to bring up. Agenda set. One parent against all the other 'professionals'. Brought it up squirming and vagaries ensued. Dealt with now (I hope) Took a lot of time. A real shame. Some of the teachers are lovely. I feel sorry for them but something must be going on.

hazey at the point where someone is saying they wouldn't want their child's ta to leave their side even if there was a major incident going on and the teacher was being physically attacked then i think it's ok to question the mentality of that person.

it's not saying all parents of children with sn or most or even a significant minority. it's addressing a tiny, teeny, minority who perhaps understandably work themselves up into such a state over it all that they lose all sense of perspective and reasonableness.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 12:35:12

Regards I can't comment on your experience.

You all that it be shared. I do. I can't make everyone else act in the same way.

If the school are being shifty, how did they explain the lack of progress towards targets.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 12:35:50

asked not all

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:37:22

they lose all sense of perspective and reasonableness.

People generally can do this. Not just parents with children with SN. Teachers can, other professionals can. Anyone who does or does not encounter any amount of stress can. It is a meaningless generalisation.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:38:29

Soap There was progress. Coped well. Not matched by what was reported.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 12:40:31

Regards. The school said they had not progressed as much as they had?

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:41:11

What I mean was academic progress was fine, no longer received a high level of support, no longer needed. Targets became a teacher's 'wish list'. An average child could not have come up to them.

exactly regards - all people can do this. it wasn't a statement about parents of children with sn but about a certain type of parent who'd find something to be an obsessive control freak over whatever it was. if that type has a child with sen or an allergy or ill health that tends to be the thing ceased upon to vent that.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 12:44:48

swallowed How can you tell who is that 'type' and who is genuine? That is who is trying to get genuine needs met when they aren't.

'demanding that teachers cannot use their professional judgement in order to best support a child is throwing the baby out with the Bath water'

No it is flouting the law. Teachers have no business using their professional judgement to override the provision specified and quantified in a child's statement. Just because this practice is rife doesn't make it right and it certainly doesn't make it legal.

'starlight if really cannot see the difference between carefully crafted opportunities for children to progress and depriving a child of support, then I fail to see the purpose of this conversation.'

I suspect it is you who cannot see the difference, if you think that 'carefully crafted opportunities' are the equivalent of redeployment of a TA.

It's not scaremongering. We are all agreeing on what happens and goes on, we are just not agreeing whether or not it is right that it does.

However there is no room for disagreement here because there is a law which states what is to happen.

WorriedMouse Thu 26-Sep-13 13:03:32

What a lot of posts since I last posted. I have skimmed most of the comments and it makes me so sad and a little angry. Firstly, I have to disagree with the SEN training; I am highly qualified and experienced in working with SEN children in a mainstream setting. Ofsted observed me teaching a lower ability class with a few statemented children and the rest on action and action +. They said my lesson was outstanding and all children, including those with disabilities and SEN, made excellent progress. He also commented on my excellent use of a TA.

I find it offensive that due to experiences in a handful of schools, you can claim that I am inexperienced and under qualified to teach. I care very much for the children I teach. I know their targets inside out and plan for them. That includes independent learning and working successfully with a peer. This is not, as some here believe, me letting them struggle. It is carefully planned and managed. I will also let the parents know using a home school book or diary that x has worked independently or with a peer during a literacy lesson. I almost always have positive replies from parents to say thanks for letting us know.

I am sorry that your experiences have been poor but all I can say is talk to the school. If the school don't know how you feel they cannot address the issues. I really don't think there is anything else I can say to convince you that some teachers are actually good.

'you probably need to examine your own expectations'

I have. It is a bit difficult to get to the bottom of the expectation issue when teachers assure you your expectations are being met as to do otherwise would admit to breaking the law.

But once I realised, I removed my child from the mainstream state system as do numerous of other parents of children with SEN, often far too late and with significant damage caused.

Parents are free to read this thread and the comments of both parents and teachers (and some parents who are teachers) and make up their own mind about the credibility of the posts.

I am extremely glad of this opportunity to put this discussion out there for their judgement and hope that some children have improved life-chances either from the parents being quicker to see issues with their schools or because teachers have thought about the issues raised on this thread and investigated some of the things that have been said by parents.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 13:07:30

Worried

Talk to school = tick

Not all teachers are bad = tick

I don't think we are arguing this here.

The 5 schools that my child attended were 'outstanding' their teachers rated as 'outstanding' with 'outstanding' SEN departments. That doesn't mean they didn't fail my child or break the law. (Getting your child into an outstanding school is a perceived benefit of having a statement).

I have experience of a lot more than the handful of schools that my child attended though.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 13:11:39

Again Starlight you are choosing to ignore the meaning of what has been said by more than just myself.

I would not be prepared for my child to not make progress because his teachers were too scared of minute counters or were to scared to use their judgement to make new, exciting developments for my child. The parents of the children I teach feel the same.

Stop trying to make generalisations across a whole nation of children. Your doing no one any favours.

Who has run through 5 schools in a year?

WorriedMouse Thu 26-Sep-13 13:14:50

So how do I allow the child who has 'rely less on adult support' as a target achieve this? Whatever I do will be 'breaking the law'. Then am I incompetent for not planning activities that allow the child to succeed? We cannot win. Thankfully I have a good relationship with parents and know that they will come to me with concerns.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 13:15:51

Ofsted outstanding means nothing in my book. Since if the best schools I have been in, and by that I mean child centered have been satisfactory or good. Some of the worst have been outstanding.

'well there's talk of squeezing and fiddling and other vague references that seem to point to 1:1 support sometimes being stretched to accommodating a bit more than just one child's needs. i appreciate from the mono focus that sounds awful but for those of us focusing on more than just our own children and knowing what it is actually like in a busy classroom it just sounds like the reality of a really stretched system being held up by adults who genuinely care about all of the children in the room that they are in.'

It sounds awful because it IS awful. The system might be stretched. Everything in the classroom might be stretched. But the child's statemented 1:1 TA CANNOT be, however much the classroom teacher would like that because that provision and entitlement is enshrined in LAW.

Why can you not get this?

It doesn't even matter if this law is entirely unreasonable. It is the LAW.

Parents expectations of adherence of the law are NOT too high ffs.

'every child can cope with that for gods sake. no child in ms school needs a person glued to their side'

This may or may not be true. Why are your expectations of a child with SEN only to cope, and not be educated though?

What on earth are your TA's doing glued to the side of a statmented child? Do you direct their work when you see that so that they can help raise the levels of the child's social or independence skills. Do you offer them more training?

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 13:24:06

Soap the 'minute counter' as you so put it can help enable a teacher to ensure a child is progressing. They only give a quantified description of what is happening and I would hope would report qualitatively too. Showing what a child is accurately receiving coupled with the child performance is the raw materials which are necessary to ensure appropriate support.

Its no good without the quantification as 5 minutes of intervention can be bigged up and exaggerated as if a child needs support on 'stand by' for the whole day. The opposite is also true, a whole day of receiving only 5 minutes support and not achieving anything can be downplayed, if the child quietly sits not disturbing anyone.

Quantitative and qualitative reporting just gives a more accurate, 360 degree perspective.

'if parents are getting their knickers in a knot because their child's ta has another child sitting at the table with them now and then who they help out a bit at the same time then no i'm afraid that is not an issue. unless the issue is the outrageous selfishness and sense of entitlement of the parent.'

A parent is SELFISH for wanting their child to receive an adequate education for which the minimum provision required to achieve this has been specified after a huge assessment to be full-time 1:1, and not have some of that time syphoned off for another child in the classroom despite the fact that their child's right to NOT have to share is written in law!? shock shock shock

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 13:26:13

worried Just report what you are doing / proposing. Get parents and professionals to agree.

'when your child is at home are you sat right beside them staring at them every minute'

Is that what the TAs in your classroom do? Seriously?

How many children in your class have that written in their statements?

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 13:31:36

Regards I really don't know what you are talking about.

Starlight you seem to think your child would be better served being segregated in the classroom. I think that is cruel unless there are very specific issues at play.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 13:32:52

Soap What is not to understand? What bits do you not understand? Tell me I can elaborate.

'So how do I allow the child who has 'rely less on adult support' as a target achieve this?'

Really? This is a question you ask given you are an experienced and 'outstanding' SN teacher?

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 13:34:30

Number is applied to give a sense of scale that qualitative reporting alone just does not do.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 13:35:08

starlight you can't say teachers don't know what they are talking about and cannot use their professional judgement and expertise, then demand that they do exactly that.

'Starlight you seem to think your child would be better served being segregated in the classroom. I think that is cruel unless there are very specific issues at play'

Absolutely not. That would be horrific. However physical inclusion is not the same thing as educational or social inclusion and should not be taken as such.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 13:36:02

Regards The post may did not make sense to me at all. I do have flu so I may need simpler wordsgrin

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 13:37:51

Then Starlight I fail to see how a ta can not interact with other children even if they are with their designated charge. I fail to see how they cannot interact if a situation occurs that is dangerous for the whole class.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 13:39:16

Cost and time spent actively supporting are the quantitative elements in support.

Qualitative elements describe what the support actually entails.

Description of child's attainment can include a quantitative mark eg 50% achieved in a test or qualitative child can do such and such.

Reporting should show what a support a child has received as well as what they have achieved.

They can interact with whomever they like if the interaction is for the primary benefit of the development of the child they are with, or do anything else with that purpose.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 13:41:35

ok. I don't disagree with that.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 13:42:57

? what Soap Cross post somewhere.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 13:45:45

so Starlight if little Jenny asks Mrs Pots the ta for a spelling or to help her with her shoe lace. Should Mrs Pots tell Jenny to go away, remind her that she is not to talk to her for any reason. Or do the very human thing of just telling her or tying her shoe.

Maybe the class teacher could build it into whole class management. 'Children if you talk to Mrs Pots you will automatically get a lunch time detention'

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 13:46:24

I was not disagreeing with you regards. I wish this had a proper reply function on it.

I'm not sure support received is important at all in quantitive terms tbh.

It is outcomes achieved, how many, how fast, how to increase number and speed of acquisition, signposts to next targets.

My ds had 6 weeks of SALT over the summer hols. Totally ineffectual professional opinion stuff with no outcomes but a staff 'perception' of progress. We should have gone instead on our cancelled holiday and worked with his interactions in playgrounds (quantifying initiations, lengths of conversations, circumstances, to inform the planning of practise sessions.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 13:47:22

smile hope your flu gets better soon soap.

nennypops Thu 26-Sep-13 13:50:35

Friend's daughter was employed in a TA in a local primary school, as general class support. There was another child in the class with 1:1 support. School wangled it so the 1:1's contract didn't get renewed, then told friend's daughter she'd have to do the 1:1 instead as well as whole class support. For her it was a total nightmare, because he really needed support all the time but, not unreasonably, the other children who were used to coming to her for help continued to do so, and the result was that none of them got adequate help. I suggested she leave a leaflet for education solicitors in the 1:1 child's backpack.

I'm with Starlight on this, if the statement says the child gets 1:1 then that is definitely what must happen. Supporting a child in class does not mean segregating them.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 13:51:14

Soap it is that and more. Quantifying and qualifying what the support was (within Statement if has one) that has been taken up / received by child. So if a child can have the TA 'stand by' the nature of this is reported accurately.

IEPs only usually cover 2 or 3 targets per term so are not too good at giving a 'rounded picture' of a whole school day / week / term.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 13:52:21

starlight isn't that the whole point that the teachers here have been making?

It is the progress towards targets and the child's ability to be part of the class that are important. Not standing with a stop watch making sure that Timmy has had his one hour of support this morning.

mrs pots must ignore children, their needs, their emotions, reality, fires, assaults and EVERYTHING to give her undivided attention to starlights child apparently.

because the needs of everyone else don't matter AT ALL.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 13:54:49

Sorry last post was to Starlight. Support received can be important if one of the objectives in independence / reducing reliance on support.

Only if appropriate, but how can you tell without this reporting? There is a certain amount you have to 'suck and see'.

as if you'd want mrs pots being your child's ta if she was capable of being such a cold hearted witch that she wouldn't help jenny tie her shoe or billy spell 'field' or save little clara from being burnt alive in a fire because 'it isn't in her job description'.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 13:56:00

Soap There is still a need to report quantitatively though!

and imagine your child being in a classroom with adults who refuse to help her because she isn't their job? you surely get the.... compassion and spirit of teamwork and support that has to go in a classroom? you get that these are little children not customers or jobs?

No I don't think so soapbox

Some of the Teachers here are saying that the teacher should be able to use their discretion to be flexible with the TA's support for the child with 1:1 in their statement to allow the child to be a part of the class.

I am saying that Timmy should get every minute he is entitled to by law, to be supported in his ability towards his targets and participation in the class.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 14:01:13

swallowed Nobody has said it is not in any child's interests for a TA to model compassion. There has to be a sense of scale in all this though if she is there to support that child primarily.

I think a lot of this would come out in the wash at planning stage to be honest. Who is working with which children and why. The TA dedicated to doing the photocopying or spending time with a different group in a different classroom must be on some plan somewhere.

Parents don't get to see the plans though, usually. Can HT's even demand to see lesson plans?

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 14:02:49

Regards. I'm not disagreeing with that either.

I just object to be told by some that I have no professional acumen and that I am deliberately trying to thwart the most needy children in my care.

I do not keep secrets, I do not let children flounder, I do not send ta's off to do admin jobs which I'm not legally supposed to be doing anyway , I do not ignore parents, I do not lie about progress or support.

Yet I'm a bad person for getting my children to achieve, progress and flourish.

If this means I'm bad, then I don't wanna be rightgrin

this is a tricky conversation because regards you are saying 'primarily' but if you look at the post above (and many others) by starlight you'll see she is saying something very different. it's the 'very different' bit i'm stunned by as it seems to deny reality and the spirit of education and working with children and creating a positive learning environment that fosters all children etc is totally ignored.

WorriedMouse Thu 26-Sep-13 14:04:43

That question was tongue in cheek. My point is to allow a child to meet an independence target, support has to step back. It's one or the other. Neither option is pleasing to you.

I understand that my outstanding teaching means nothing to you. To me it means a lot. I take pride in everything I do.

I am longer going to comment here as rather than having a discussion, posts appear to be aggressive. I know I do a good job. My last parents evening told me that along with the progress children make with me. Unfortunately some on here will probably never be satisfied with their child's teacher. Good luck to you and your children.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 14:05:24

Course head teachers can see planning. They can sees anything they want.

It's the ht who deploys staff so usually if there is a problem, it is there not in the classroom.

'every single minute he's entitled to' - i just find that sad. really the underlying attitude is 'i don't give a fuck about anyone else's children, i don't give a fuck about the class as a whole or the wider agendas of education and inclusion, i don't give a fuck what else is happening, all i give a fuck about is my child getting what's their's'. yes, i do find that selfish and disturbing and massively entitled.

education - certainly state, inclusive, education CANNOT work with attitudes like that. that's probably why starlight has found it 'failed' her and her expectations.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 14:06:38

exactly swallowedafly

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 14:07:39

cross posts. I meant swallowedafly previous post.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 14:08:07

Oh I thought I saw some Union thing on TES that said they couldn't and also could not observe in their classrooms without notice. I admit I am sometimes wrong. There is a lot to keep up with.

Well for a start regards that is a pretty naff target as it isn't SMART and impossible to measure.

But if under a heading of aims, with aims being to reduce dependence on adult support you might have a SMART target being:

Long term Target: Tim will come into school, put his bag in the bag place, his coat on the coat hook, his lunch on the lunch on the lunch shelf and then sit on the carpet ready for registration. He will do this correctly 4 out of 5 mornings, first with adult support which is reduced over time as Tim acquires this skills.

SMART Target. Each morning TA will meet Tim and show him where to put his bag. The TA will support Tim returning to the school gate 3 times to practise this skill. Once completed Time will receive a tick on his chart for bag with a number up to 3 with 1 being achieved independently on first go, 2 being on 2nd go, and 3 being fully still requiring full prompts.

This would require a TA to be fully available to Tim as well as producing evidence of progress towards independence over time.

Once achieved you can move onto the coat, with careful supervision of the bag to ensure that the coat addition doesn't scupper it etc etc.

and you know what having a statement doesn't necessarily mean being the most needy child in the class. getting a statement requires such a level of articulacy and literacy and energy in a parent that some children will never get one because their parents are not capable of advocating loudly enough on their behalf.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 14:10:55

Regards lesson observations are different from just wandering into a room.

I have to write out extra planning for an observation. it's just in a different format. It's totally pointless.

Head teachers do learning walks which is an official look about and can obviously come in when ever they like.

''every single minute he's entitled to' - i just find that sad. really the underlying attitude is 'i don't give a fuck about anyone else's children, i don't give a fuck about the class as a whole or the wider agendas of education and inclusion, i don't give a fuck what else is happening, all i give a fuck about is my child getting what's their's'. yes, i do find that selfish and disturbing and massively entitled.'

Actually I find the opposite is true. It is teachers with YOUR attitude who don't give a fuck about the fact that a very severely disadvantaged child who is running out of time to catch up and get enough of an education to have the best possible chance at leading as independent a life as possible.

It is YOUR attitude that it is selfish of parents to demand that having their limited and bloody hard fought for VITAL lifeline of provision not eroded because the teacher wants to use that resource for her own benefit or for the benefit of a class of children less disadvantaged, that has caused the huge fuck up of the system for children with SEN.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 14:15:36

Starlight Don't talk to me about SMART targets!

I have had absolute headaches with trying to insist on these before. IMO some targets just cannot be SMART, they are only ever aims. The defining criteria is usually not SMART. Number is then randomly applied to completely subjective criteria.

This book is good:

www.amazon.co.uk/Proofiness-Dark-Arts-Mathematical-Deception/dp/0670022160/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380201305&sr=8-1&keywords=The+dark+art+of+mathematical+deception

'and you know what having a statement doesn't necessarily mean being the most needy child in the class. getting a statement requires such a level of articulacy and literacy and energy in a parent that some children will never get one because their parents are not capable of advocating loudly enough on their behalf.'

Oh I see. So it's only fair that once they have done that, the teachers are free to share those resources around hmm

This is also why the system is fucked up. Why isn't the school applying for a statement anyway. Why should the parents be doing it?

what BENEFIT is it you think the teacher gets when you say 'for her own benefit'?

benefit of the teacher or benefit of the class and every child in it?

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 14:18:37

A lot of aims cannot be made finite.

There are degrees of being able to do something, being 'secure' in an ability as I think the current phrase is.

IMO no-one is ever secure, there is always opportunity to refine, refine, refine. We are learners for life.

grin you've named me as the reason the system is so fucked several times now. i must have more influence than i realised.

'and you know what having a statement doesn't necessarily mean being the most needy child in the class'

And why exactly does that justify punishing the child WITH the support, or their parents?

Do you really think that statementing officers write in extra unneeded provision on the basis that what that child gets is more than they need in order to enable class teachers to share it with the other kids?

Why do YOU get to be judge and jury?

Why do YOU get to break the law?

If you don't like the system tell the LA, write to your counsellor, join a consultation group, start up a lobbying group, go on strike about it, but do not, ABSOLUTELY DO NOT remove provision from a child who has been awarded it.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 14:20:58

I think my views on the above may make me a difficult person to deal with for some. hmm For this I apologise.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 14:21:20

Cross post.

Parmarella Thu 26-Sep-13 14:21:41

when I helped out for 2 years at school with reading as a volunteer parent, I went in completely "neutral", I had no suspicions or paranoia, nothing.

But I saw that 1 child with severe SN who had, supposedly, 1-1 for 25 hours a week, never got any 1-2-1 as he was calm and undemanding. The lady who was supposed to work with him was asked to manage 2 disruptive children, often by taking them out of the classroom to go and sit with them in the corridor. One of them used to beat and kick her, he had serious problems but no statement.

She told me she only got to spend 5 hrs a week with the child she was supposed to spend 25 hours with.

As I know she was not supposed to tell me (it was a weak moment and she was in tears) I never told anyone, not even the mum of the boy with SN.

I am still not sure if that was the right thing to do.

But I was shocked and it opened my eyes. This was a good teacher with an average class, who did the best she could, but something in the system stinks if this is how it goes.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 14:23:17

Agree entirely Paramella

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 14:24:45

Not the best for that boy with SEN though Paramella. sad

Parmarella Thu 26-Sep-13 14:27:18

I know, but the parents thought there was something fishy as, obviously, their child reported he never got to spend much time with Mrs. X.

They have moved him to a different school.

At the time I felt really torn about it. But all I got was a snapshot (only ever there for 2 or 3 hrs) and what the TA said in a tearful moment.

Maybe I was too scared and should have whistle blown. Doing nothing is always the wrong solution.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 14:32:13

Entirely agree that the child should have had their alloted time.

However in that senario it would have been of limited use since those two boys would have either disrupted the lesson to such a point that no learning took place anyway or the teacher would have been standing on the other side of the door again disrupting learning.

Funding is difficult to come by for behavioural problems and waiting lists to see cahms or bass/pro can take an age. Even when they are seen the right support can be years away.

It all comes down to money.

Glad you find such a serious topic so amusing swallowed

'However in that senario it would have been of limited use since those two boys would have either disrupted the lesson to such a point that no learning took place anyway or the teacher would have been standing on the other side of the door again disrupting learning'

Not really. The TA could have moved with their charge to another class.

What would have happened has that 1:1 not have been there?
The answer to that is what should have happened instead.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 14:41:43

Starlight Hmm yes I always thought this when the TA complained my DC did not understand what he was reading. At home he did. I just think he did not want to discuss with her. Also they picked some books for him about subject matter he had no prior knowledge (reading scheme level aimed at older children).

Non Statemented children got hours and hours of input on Reading Recovery. Yet it was a rare week he read to her more than once, some weeks, not at all.

I would have put a stop to this except I knew he hated reading with her. I knew he could do it. Good thing we got a new TA the next year. grin

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 14:43:34

^When I discussed with the teacher she knew nothing about it. So much for communication!

hazeyjane Thu 26-Sep-13 14:44:19

I am sorry that your experiences have been poor but all I can say is talk to the school. If the school don't know how you feel they cannot address the issues.

Trouble is, WorriedMouse, it would seem that talking to the school can lead you to be perceived as one of those controlling, obsessive parents.

Huge cross post with everybody, because ds's portage lady came round to discuss statementing, primary school and strategies to deal with ds's chronic separation anxiety (oh the irony).

I must stop reading this because with ott posts like
as if you'd want mrs pots being your child's ta if she was capable of being such a cold hearted witch that she wouldn't help jenny tie her shoe or billy spell 'field' or save little clara from being burnt alive in a fire because 'it isn't in her job description'. it is obviously just a big ol joke to some on this thread.

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 14:47:30

Segregating a child from teacher input? And possibly resources needed for the lesson? What happens if this is group work?

You seem to think that dealing with ebd children is just a matter of thinking really hard or calling the Cavalry. It isn't and they never come.

Seriously Starlight if the answers were all as easy as you make them out to be, don't you think everyone would be doing it?

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 14:50:16

Not funny for those of us living on both sides hazeyjane.

Regards Thu 26-Sep-13 14:52:35

If you're not living life on the edge you're taking up too much space.

You are definitely taking up too much space soap re both sides, are you trying to be omnipotent?

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 14:54:50

Oh I'm very trying regardsgrin

zzzzz Thu 26-Sep-13 14:56:44

Yes you are soap

soapboxqueen Thu 26-Sep-13 14:57:31

Oi wink

No I don't.

I think an easy answer would be to send them to the HT until the HT gets the message that you can't cope with them without additional resources.

It is utterly unacceptable to use a statemented child's 1:1 in place of whatever else it is that you would have done.

But again, can you answer, what WOULD be done if the 1:1 was not there?