42 in one year 2 class am I over reacting?

(42 Posts)
goodgrief54 Sat 20-Jul-13 06:55:51

My dc go to a village school rated as outstanding by ofsted who have just become an academy. I have found out that the already huge year 1 class my dd is in will expand to 42 in september with one dedicated qualified teacher.

Am i over reacting to be concerned? Does the fact they are foundation mean they can take as many children as they like? I have asked for a meeting with head and chair of governors to be arranged anything else I should do?

thanks for your help..

outoffuel Sat 20-Jul-13 06:58:04

I have a 3.5yo. If I found out that he was in going into a class that size is be upset- and would more than likely be contacting the private schools locally and asking for a transfer (and selling a kidney to do so). 42 is just too many. So I think you're justified in feeling angry about this.

Sirzy Sat 20-Jul-13 07:01:02

I can only assume infant class size rules don't apply to academies then?

What sort of support staff will be in the class?

I would seriously be considering moving schools, no way can a teacher adequately support the needs of so many pupils

exoticfruits Sat 20-Jul-13 07:02:32

When you say 'one dedicated, qualified teacher' I assume that you mean she is full time - there must be others part time- qualified and TAs. What is the set up? What is the room like? Is it team teaching?
You can't really do anything until you have had the meeting and found out how it is to be organised.
Write out a list of questions before you go- it is easy to forget on the day.
If you still don't find it satisfactory there is nothing further you can do- except change schools.

gymboywalton Sat 20-Jul-13 07:03:31

i think that is outrageous. that class needs to be split in two. they should aslo have a ta-do they not?

gymboywalton Sat 20-Jul-13 07:04:18

i am worrying about working with a class of 31 next term. 42 would be ridiculous.

exoticfruits Sat 20-Jul-13 07:06:52

The other thing to ask is how they move up the school? Are they all year 1? It sounds to me as if it is 42 because you have reception in with them, in which case only the yr1's will move up next year. Schools generally can't cope with 42 in a classroom, particularly village schools.
Is it not that you have 2 years together and other teachers who have reception but are not full time?

goodgrief54 Sat 20-Jul-13 07:08:42

Thanks for your comments.

we have been told there will be one full time qualified teacher in y2 who will also oversee the 2 full time teachers in y3. There is also one full time TA in the y2 class. Is this legal??

BetterToLaugh Sat 20-Jul-13 07:10:14

42 is shocking. DD is in a class of 31 and I don't like it but nothing I can do. Do you mean they're foundation stage going in to year one next term? How will the teachers and TA's be able to listen to that many children read etc at least once a week.

goodgrief54 Sat 20-Jul-13 07:12:33

Exoticfruits they are all one year group y1 now going to y2 in sept. I do not know how they will physically fit into classrooms. school is v small and old building sad

BetterToLaugh Sat 20-Jul-13 07:13:31

Sorry just seen your reply. I don't know if there are laws regarding numbers for key stage 1, I thought that they were aiming for 30 or under but not sure.

gymboywalton Sat 20-Jul-13 07:15:31

i would be talking to the head and if i got no joy i would be moving schools tbh.

i would NOT want my child in a class of 42. trust me-it will impossible for them to get the kind of attention and support they need.

gymboywalton Sat 20-Jul-13 07:17:06

right-have just googles and the legal limit is 30

exoticfruits Sat 20-Jul-13 07:22:02

If they are moving up the school as a class of 42 I would move your child.
Are the year 3 teachers not qualified?

goodgrief54 Sat 20-Jul-13 07:28:46

Yes the y3 teachers both qualified but both new to school one nqt and one with 3 years experience. there has been talk of taking the 10 lowest ability out of classes 2 and 3 at certain points in day to teach them separately but I am unsure if this is correct until i mert head. tbh though i do not feel this is enough.. am i right?

goodgrief54 Sat 20-Jul-13 07:29:32

meet not mert! smile

MaybeBentley Sat 20-Jul-13 07:36:01

Still confused, so is the class a mixed Y2 / Y3 class?

goodgrief54 Sat 20-Jul-13 07:43:26

No the 42 are all y2 in one class.

They may at some points in day take some y 2 and some y3 to a different room but tbh i dont know if this is the case or how this would work until I see the head which now wont be until sept. i am also v confused...

mrz Sat 20-Jul-13 07:48:53

Do academies have to comply with the infant class size rules?

Yes. All academies with infants on roll have to comply with the infant class size rules in the same way as they would have as maintained schools. This requires them to organise classes of children of compulsory school age who are aged under 8 in classes of 30 or fewer per teacher.

MaybeBentley Sat 20-Jul-13 08:00:36

I think you need to be asking the headteacher how the teaching groups will be organised. 42 Year 2s on the register and having lessons together with one teacher and TA seems wrong. 42 on the register, then splitting and going to lessons (mixed in with the year 3s if necessary), with a qualified teacher in groups of less than 30 I would be happy with.

prh47bridge Sat 20-Jul-13 08:53:08

Infant class size rules apply to all schools including academies.

The school cannot legally run a single Y2 class of 42 pupils with one teacher. I think you need to find out what they mean when they talk about having one dedicated qualified teacher. If this teacher is going to run the class on their own that is illegal and the presence of a TA will not change that. If, however, there will always be other, non-dedicated, teachers (e.g. the Y3 teachers) in the class they are not breaking the law.

Llareggub Sat 20-Jul-13 09:02:21

How has the class size suddenly reached 42? What was the class size last year?

tiggytape Sat 20-Jul-13 09:07:35

I don't know if there are laws regarding numbers for key stage 1

Yes - KS1 is the only age group that the laws apply to in fact. There are no laws limiting class sizes once children get to Year 3.

This school could legally have a class of 42 if they had 2 qualified fulltime teachers (a TA or other adults do not count).
Or they could organise it so, if Year 3 is smaller, they could make mixed year classes. If they do this, the classes containing the Year 2 pupils would need to be at 30 or less. This might mean they have one larger Year 3 class - which would be legal.

goodgrief54 Sat 20-Jul-13 09:15:55

There are 4 more children joining in sept. there are currently 38 in y 1.

From what I understand the class will be 42 with one dedicated teacher then for a couple of hours each day some of the children will be taught elsewhere, i can only assume by one of the 2 year 3 teachers.

tiggytape Sat 20-Jul-13 09:50:26

How many are in Year 3?
Do the two year groups combined total roughly 90 (i.e. could they be planning fulltime mixed classes at the legal limit for the Year 2 children)?
If not I just don't understand their plan at all - it isn't legal for them to organise things as described.

That is entirely mad and I would not be happy.

DDs year group is 42. There are two classes. (it's also a state academy)

nipersvest Sat 20-Jul-13 10:06:21

are you sure the class will be that big?, i only ask because at my dc's school, each year group has an intake of 40, but class size remains 30. they do split classes throughout the school, eg year 5/6 is split, 1 class of 30 all yr 5, then 2 classes mixed year 5 and 6.

i find split classes work really well.

(ps, my dc's school is also outstanding at ofsted and changed to an academy last year)

PinkSippyCup Sat 20-Jul-13 10:18:19

If I was the teacher being asked to teach that class I would be refusing/ looking for a new job! That is because I know there is no way I would be able to do my job properly with that many children.

You are not over-reacting OP. Ask for a meeting with the head to find out exactly what the plan is. This can't be right.

prh47bridge Sat 20-Jul-13 11:57:47

Even 38 in Y1 with a single teacher is illegal unless 8 of them are excepted children (which means they don't count towards the infant class size limit). The only way this would be legal is if there will be at least 12 excepted children in the class come September or if they intend to have other teachers helping the dedicated teacher.

admission Sat 20-Jul-13 19:17:38

You need to go to the school and ask the head teacher for a clear explanation of the class structure and who is teaching who in terms of classes.
If the school had 38 in the one class this year then either this was illegal or they had a very strange situation where for some reason 8 pupils were considered as what is called excepted pupils. There is a list of different reasons why they may be considered excepted.
To then be adding another 4 pupils to start in September says to me that they must be running a class with two qualified school teachers in the class. Whilst the school may have just converted to an Academy until the 1st September the LA would still be completely involved in admissions to the school and I do not know how this could happen without someone saying something.

spudmasher Sat 20-Jul-13 19:25:55

My school has this problem...way over subscribed but parents just keep on coming and, yes some get in...looked after, disabled parents, fair access, etc.
When I meet with them, on entry, I have to ask the question"Why on earth do you want you 6 year old in a class of 34?" They just don't get it. They still think their child is the only one/ most important one in the class...sorry, but it's just miserable for everyone.

Aquamildred Sat 20-Jul-13 19:39:00

I would not be happy with 42 at all, having worked in schools I do not think a teacher can meet the learning needs of 42 6 and 7 year olds academically.

tiggytape Sat 20-Jul-13 20:04:15

spudmasher - if they are getting places due to statements, LAC or FAP then the answer to your question is they have no choice.

Nobody really wants their child in a huge class but it is better than no place at all.
If they are being given a place under Fair Access Protocol for example it will mean every single school in the entire area is already full and the council has sent them there whether they want to go or not.
If they are getting sent there because a statement names the school, it means no other school apart from yours can meet their needs.

Rather than broach it with the parents individually which is a bit unfair given that most of them have no power over this at all, you'd need to speak to the governors and the local authority about why there is such a lack of provision, why your school is taking more than its fair share of unplaced children and at what stage they would rearrange classes to better manage it if possible.

lljkk Sat 20-Jul-13 20:49:11

Wow, our school has class sizes around 22-26.

simpson Sat 20-Jul-13 20:52:42

I would not be happy at all.

My DD (reception) is in a class of 90 but there are 3 teachers and 3 TAs so the ratio is the same. She is at an academy btw.

cheerfulweather Sat 20-Jul-13 20:55:25

Wow! How will they be taught? In a lecture theatre I would guess!

I wouldn't be happy either.

jamtoast12 Sat 20-Jul-13 22:22:26

Could it be that the year 3 classes are lower in number so at certain times of the day a number if the year 2 kids will rotate into year 3 (swapping over etc) so at no time would any one class have over 30?

It's still sounds madness to me. In our infants, each class has a min of one teacher and 2 ta's.

jamdonut Sun 21-Jul-13 15:11:35

42!...Crikey ! We (Class teacher and TA) had 28 in a mixed year 3/4 class this past year and thought that was way too many!!

Thankfully next year our classes will be smaller,about 22 which is much more manageable.

mrz Sun 21-Jul-13 15:20:27

In my school 30 to one teacher (no TA) is standard in Y1-6
I have taught 36 reception children without a TA but that means limited outdoor access as you can't be everywhere

spanieleyes Sun 21-Jul-13 16:11:33

I've had 31 this year and 34 next but that's in a year 5/6 class ( although I once had 35 in a Reception/Yr 1/Yr 2 combined class, now that was fun confused.
42 with one teacher is definitely illegal in KS1, you need to ask the Head how she is attempting to get around the law!

GobHoblin Sun 21-Jul-13 17:27:22

Thats not teaching surely but just crowd control? I would be off to the head, asking for the plan & if not satisfied would be moving school.

AlienAttack Sun 21-Jul-13 20:48:53

I'm a great believer in if something looks too absurd to be true then it probably isn't true. So OP please have a conversation with your school tomorrow and simply ask, given the KS1 class sizes rule, how is the 42 in a class planned to work? I am optimistic that you will find there is a planned split of classes or two teachers...

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