Ramadan and heatwave

(70 Posts)
LongStory Mon 15-Jul-13 21:45:36

I've got a lot of respect for the muslim faith and observation of Ramadan, but I'm finding it really difficult that some of the Yr 6 children at my kids' school are fasting in this heat. I worry about dehydration. How are schools dealing with this?

Lonecatwithkitten Mon 15-Jul-13 21:47:38

But in the Middle East it is even hotter and Ramadan is safely observed.

LongStory Mon 15-Jul-13 21:52:19

Yes, but it's closer to the equator so the days are shorter. And society is more geared up for it. Whereas we clash with er... sports day, insistence on water bottles, ice creams everywhere, school plays, prom night etc etc. I guess the schools in our area and others nearby are dealing sensibly.

I will talk to the kids about taking Lent more seriously next year.

numbum Mon 15-Jul-13 21:57:16

Of course it's hotter lonecat but their bodies will be used to the heat. One of my DC has been very poorly due to the heat, if my DC couldn't have had water then they'd be in hospital on a drip. Seems very cruel to me - but I understand it's their religion, beliefs and decision. I don't really know if you can do anything about it though

MortifiedAdams Mon 15-Jul-13 22:04:43

Sorry but forcing a child (through manipulation, pressure or abuse), to fast when they arent even old enough to choose the religion they follow, and simply do it is that is all they know, is awful.

The body is not designed to go for that long without water and sustinance. A grown adult chosing to do.it - fine, but a child? They need nourishment.

TiredyCustards Mon 15-Jul-13 22:06:47

Oh dear, y6 is 10-11 right? Way too young surely. Agree with mortified

LongStory Mon 15-Jul-13 22:10:45

There are many muslim children in the primary school and I think only a very few of them are doing the full fast, so I don't think they are pressured into it. If there were we would be walking towards a major public health problem.

I just asked my son in Yr 8 (not sleeping - heat) if any of his friends are fasting. One of them is - but his family have travelled to Turkey for the month where the days are shorter and they can rest during the day. How sensible!

And I thought my faith - with the endless rigmarole of mummy-pressure at Christmas time - was tough.

numbum Mon 15-Jul-13 22:11:44

The children are only expected to do it once they hit puberty. I suppose some 10/11 year olds are at that stage? Still horrible though. It was light at 4am here (thanks DD for letting me know that) and didn't get dark until nearly 10pm

Pozzled Mon 15-Jul-13 22:13:30

It's not just Y6. I know of children in Y4 who are fasting, although not every day.

LongStory Mon 15-Jul-13 22:16:32

Just found a helpful Q&A online, it sounds fairly sensible unless you hit puberty early...

Do children observe the fasting month of Ramadan?

Muslim children are not required to fast for Ramadan until they reach the age of maturity (puberty). However, in many families, younger children enjoy participating and are encouraged to practice their fasting. It is common for a younger child to fast for part of a day, or for one day on the weekend. This way, they enjoy the "grown-up" feeling that they are participating in the special events of the family and community.

It is also common for children to participate in Ramadan in other ways, aside from the daily fast. They may collect coins or money to donate to the needy, help cook meals for breaking the day's fast, or read Quran with the family in the evening.

At the end of Ramadan, children are often indulged with gifts of sweets and money on the day of Eid al-Fitr.

LongStory Mon 15-Jul-13 22:19:52

I think fasting is manageable, but lack of water is a different thing entirely. My son in Yr 3 (yes, I have a lot of kids!) is in a class where a good third are muslim, and I don't know any who are.

FriendlyLadybird Mon 15-Jul-13 22:28:34

My DS's best friend is fasting. He chose to do it -- at 11 he doesn't have to. I can assure you that his parents wouldn't dream of forcing him, through manipulation, pressure or abuse. He seems to be coping well, though for some reason he still seems to be expected to sit with everyone at lunchtime. That seems mean.

LongStory Mon 15-Jul-13 22:31:45

I agree that's a bit harsh to sit with the others at lunch, but I bet it makes them appreciate their blessings. The Yr 6s I am aware of are staying out of the sun and resting in the break/lunch times at school.

justanuthermanicmumsday Fri 19-Jul-13 20:55:45

As one poster mentioned dehydration. there are things that exempt fasting and nullify it. signs of dehydration would be one. Although pregnancy in itself is not a exemption, if a woman fears for her life or babys she can pass fasting but must make up those thirty days after the birth. I was heavily pregnant twice during ramadan i made them up, but i did feel guilty and left out .

one poster also said its too early aged 10 to force a child to fast or adhere to religion. The fact is all of us are given a belief system and culture to follow from the day we are born, whether tis a set of atheist, agnostic or abrahamic rules the rules are there. The moral system is there, so we all shape our kids minds in one way or another. To suggest people who follow a faith such as islam Christianity or Judaism are forcing religion on their kids via fasting or otherwise is hypocritical in this light.

I don't know how I will feel seeing my kids fast they're not old enough yet, but ill cross that bridge when it arrives. I won't force them to fast if they are clearly ill no loving parent would do that.

you don't actually feel hungry seeing food, the thirst and psychological state is more challenging, least that's how I feel.

Fizzypop001 Fri 19-Jul-13 23:57:19

no one is forcing anyone to fast it is a personal choice that we muslims are happy with. if someone decides to not fast its up to them and longstory just like to say whats it got to do with you whos fasting in your childs class not like its affecting anyone of you in anyway. just mind your own business and deal with your own kids and stop worrying about others. and im sure every child in that class have done fasting as a personal choice and they dont do the whole day like us adults maybe a few hours but its up to them. stop talking about something you dont understand and turn it into something bad because its good and we also give charity to the poor in this month.you properly never given charity in your life stop targeting us muslims because we are human beings with feelings just like you

Fizzypop001 Sat 20-Jul-13 00:00:10

and another thing you dont have to fast if your sick or have medical issues like i said you dont understand

Fizzypop001 Sat 20-Jul-13 00:30:31

morified you are talking rubbish just like to ask you if you know any muslim families that are forcing their children to fast. i would say the answer to that is NO because i know plenty of muslim families and they DONT force their kids to fast and its very clear that you people dont know what your talking about so stop talking rubbish and if you want to understand how ramaden works look it up. and as you were saying about our bodies not being designed for fasting how come muslims have been doing it for generations then and they have come out fine.i do agree with what you said about kids needing food etc for grown but no one is forcing them and they are not expected to do it at all but if THEY want to fast for a few hours good for them and when they want to stop they can. we care just as much about our kids as you do yours

NomDeClavier Sat 20-Jul-13 00:44:51

Whoa! I think the OP has a genuine concern about children she knows and how they are coping during an exceptionally hot Ramadan, and what schools are doing to be sensitive to their needs. It's true schools are really pushing the water bottles etc, and there are lots of events where either the presence of food or the physical activity involved must make fasting hard. Equally the days are very long - much longer than in the Middle East where the tradition comes from - and the lifeste is very different. Not that this makes fasting a bad or crazy idea but it's a different context.

These children are unlikely to be being forced into it but my concern would be whether they are mature enough to manage it sensibly and recognise the signs of, say, dehydration which would permit them to break the fast and take and informed decision. Is upload that's down to the individual families and the support they give the children who are choosing to participate or who are expected to for the first time.

And no, I'm not Muslim but I do observe religious fast days and do give to charity (though what that has to do with it I'm not quite sure).

Fizzypop001 Sat 20-Jul-13 03:45:41

well if these children are fasting for their own religion for a few hours a day im sure parents or teacher and them selves would no when to break it. has op had any issues of these children having problems at school dont think so. so why be concerned when a kids hungry theyll eat because they are not required to fast and They are not forced its a personal choice. i soppose op has followed these kids around the school to see when they break their fast because op doesnt know that but will not be when adults break their fast this thing im sure of. maybe fast 1 to 2 hours and op is getting concerned about nothing you dont know so why talk rubbish. and they also dont fast every day maybe one or more days. nomdeclavier had no issue when they clearly said that we pressure abuse or manipulate our lovely children that we clearly love into fasting is sickening but when i defend what is important to us muslims you say whoa. whatever can clearly see what side your on and you know what dont want to talk to you people because you always think the worst of everything. that child at school is properly very happy doing something good for his religion and theirs op posting this to get sickening comments why not let thatchild do good and let teacher or parent deal with when the child should break it. no op has to post this on mumsnet what exactly are you expecting to get out of that. is she doing anything or asking teacher about it No so not really helping anyone soo pretty pointless and some people commenting no nothing at all. if you dont know nothing then no need to post and as for giving charity i said that to show our good intentions not that you people would understand that

Kirrin Sat 20-Jul-13 04:07:17

fizzypop I think you're being a bit unfair to the op. she appears to be posting from a point of view of seeing how she can help the children who are fasting and shows nothing but respect for your religion. She's pointing out how it is different here because of the long days, the fact that we are not accustomed to this sort of heat and that our society is not geared up the Ramadan in the same way as you would be in the Middle East - everyone around you is still eating/drinking etc. My nephew said today that he walked down the high street and felt totally surrounded by people eating ice creams and drinking ice cold cokes!

There are some people on this thread who have shown ignorance and a lack of understanding of the principles of ramadan but the op is not one of them.

Incidentally, accusing people you know nothing about of never giving to charity and referring to them as "you people" kind of loses you the moral high ground, and in fact shows the sort of prejudice that you are accusing them of.

Fizzypop001 Sat 20-Jul-13 04:11:38

im getting annoyed as its the month of ramaden and some of the posts are sickening next will be getting about post about children not being able to get meat as parents are not allowing them and their being abused as a result. can see op was not doing it in bad intentions but the responses of some were disrespectful and untrue so why post such a thing when op clearly doesnt know whats going on and is hearing it from her kids which that age is not so reliable. sorry op as can see you had no bad intention but others should not have posted those sickening things we would not put our children in hospital and their is no forcing involved anyone of any faith that seen these remarks would clearly get upset as it is not the picture at all. i believe certain things and celebrate just like any other religion and others religions some cant eat meat etc butno need for the rudeness of the posts above. you dont understand it then dont be so negative about it till you clearly understand everything anyway cant stop people using their imagnation to understand things they clearly dont

Fizzypop001 Sat 20-Jul-13 04:19:58

im just upset by the comments and me refering to you people is because some of them seem to be agreeing with the sickening comments. got no issues with anyone but cant stand people who are racist and feel they can comment on something they dont understand..hurts me that people would think we woulddo such things as ramaden is a happy peaceful month that we commit fully to our religion and fasting helps us to feel how the poor people do etc

fuzzywuzzy Sat 20-Jul-13 04:34:05

Right so OP knows of one child who is fasting (as he's in her sons class), the child is in Turkey however, so not sure how OPs son is so sure he's fasting at all to be honest unless OPs son is also in Turkey.

Other than that she 'knows of' year five and six kids who are fasting and is worried about them.....

If A&E were filled with fasting children taken ill be very sure it would be front page news all over the country. But it's not.

My children attend an Islamic school, the only children fasting we're the ones who insisted themselves, the school sent out letters & emails requesting that all children still bring packed lunches to school just in case the child needed to break fast regardless of whether they intended to fast all day or not.

I refused to let dd fast & after much tears & tantrums she has fasted during her holiday, my mums been keeping a very close eye on her but she fasted the full day. NOBODY would dream of forcing anyone to fast, how on earth could you ensure a person doesn't eat or drink? We may be Muslim, but we don't love our children any less than most parents. I wouldn't dream of harming my child or forcing her to starve and dehydrate.

Kirrin Sat 20-Jul-13 04:41:28

I can understand that that there is a lot of negativity about Islam, and the frustration that must cause. It frustrates me and I'm not Muslim. Some of the rubbish you see spouted as fact is unbelievable. However, whilst there are some who are just ignorant bigots who will never open their minds, there are others who simply don't know. So educate them. Nicely. Asking questions is not disrespectful or rude. The op has assumed that the kids are doing the full fast - and if they are fasting during school hours then that is not an unreasonable assumption - she has not assumed that they are being forced/manipulated or anything else. She made no mention of it being cruel nor did she suggest that they shouldn't be doing it. She simply expressed a concern about dehydration. Not an unreasonable concern given the heat.
Some of the responses have been rude and display ignorance, but ranting and raving will not change their perceptions. A nice post explaining how Ramadan for children actually works, from the point of view of one who is actually doing it might. And may also make interesting reading for people who are not rude and ignorant but who simply don't know much about Ramadan as they have never really come across it.
I would also point out that most of the responses on this thread are not critical - in fact only 2 are - so your response seems way out of proportion. Perhaps you are conditioned to assuming people are negative about Islam to the point that you see it when it is not there?

Fizzypop001 Sat 20-Jul-13 04:45:02

thank you fuzzywuzzy my point exactly im a mixer of different cultures my mum was english started off a non muslim and got family members who are not muslims so got no issues with anyone but people agreeing with us abusing when we clearly are not seems abit racist to me and seem to deserve to be put in a group as im a very social person and know lots of people and a minority talk in this way about something they clearly dont understand.

Fizzypop001 Sat 20-Jul-13 04:45:35

sorry mixture

Kirrin Sat 20-Jul-13 04:47:35

Cross post fuzzy I was responding to fizzy
It is interesting to see how a Muslim school is handling it. And yes, I think we can safely assume even one child ending up in A&E due to fasting would have the Daily Fail out in force!

Fizzypop001 Sat 20-Jul-13 04:54:24

well i can clearly see whats being said and dont like it but agree a gental explaination should have been done but scrolling down and reading other comments made me angry and upset as muslims have had negitive press and millions of muslims around the world are dying etc so muslims dont deserve to be accused of such things. muslims are just like anyone else of any other religion and background

Fizzypop001 Sat 20-Jul-13 04:59:57

and we should all support and help each other not their abusing manipulating their kids into fasting WHAT where did you get that from dont you think we have had enough from press and from whats happening round the world but no mumsnetters to where does the full stop come into play

Fizzypop001 Sat 20-Jul-13 05:22:35

again im sorry to op and its good to be curious about things and look for answers to those things no you where not expecting this but it was the other mumsnetters that made me angry and upset but im glad you got your answer through web and through other good mumsnetters but ill tell you one thing their is no need for concern as us parents are on it or the child may not be fasting at all which is most likely. its good to post questions about different religions but some people just get carried away and start imagining things and posting rubbish which does not exist in any religion

Kirrin Sat 20-Jul-13 06:51:06

Ramadan Kareem fizzy smile

Fizzypop001 Sat 20-Jul-13 10:38:40

thanks ramaden kareem to you too hope you have a peaceful year

NomDeClavier Sat 20-Jul-13 11:43:08

Not sure why you're singling me out when I said the children are unlikely be forced into fasting, whether that's deliberately withholding food, pressuring or manipulating, but hey ho. I clearly don't agree with the other posters down the thread that it's cruel or that it's too young full stop.

As long as children are being supported by school and family, educated about being careful and having allowances made to respect their fast then there's no reason to stop them. I can understand the importance of the fast and children naturally want to join in with what is a major event. I would be worried if they aren't bring supported because a Y6 child may find it difficult to limit themselves in their activities, or end up unhappy when other children are wafting ice creams around and asking (albeit innocently) why they can't even have a taste, or recognise by themselves when they've done too much before they're severely dehydrated. If a teacher knows nothing, if the parents haven't communicated this, it's difficult for the child to take an informed decision. They may assume that 'that's what fasting is like' and carry on.

I can understand your responses now fizzy and I can see your feeling very sensitive at the moment, which is understandable given the news recently, but instead of making generalisations and being aggressive remember that some people are concerned and want to be educated, some people have been educated and are still concerned because this year is unusually hot, and some people are concerned and don't want to be educated but need to be. Some people have probably only just found out that primary aged children may be fasting, either because they've reached puberty or because they are choosing to, during Ramadan and assume they're doing a full fast or whatever. Respond to the OP calmly and politely and don't attack people who are trying to support you or calm things down while still having their own POV.

I meant no harm, just didn't want it descending into a bunfight. It annoys me when anyone stereotypes. I hope I avoided it, although it's difficult to do on the net, because as with anything this is a very individual decision for children and their families and responses will vary between individual schools. Some will give excellent support and some will give none.

Ramadan Mubarak, fizzy and everyone else.

(And here's a change to educate me - Ramadan Kareem? I assume it means similar?)

YoureAllABunchOfBastards Sat 20-Jul-13 18:44:29

I was chatting to a colleague about this the other day - she was saying that kids are often desperate to join in and fast. She wasn't allowed until she was 11 and she was really cheesed off at her parents!

Fizzypop001 Sat 20-Jul-13 19:07:49

i know i got upset very quickly and attacked op which i should not have done and i think its very good to want to know about religions etc but for people to comment in the way they did was wrong and disrespectful. as people we should respect others and their beliefs and do not make things up. ramaden mubarak to everyone and hope people really think about what they say about other peoples religions without really understanding

littleducks Sat 20-Jul-13 19:14:14

I can understand concerns, it has been really hot and I think most people were surprised by the weather. However I'm pretty sure most people manage it sensibly and if they were not and lots of children were becoming ill we would have heard about it.

The fasts are long this year and it will be easier in the school holiday, and everyone can stay up later and rest/nap in the afternoon.

My daughter is desperate to fast but after considering her age (7) and the weather and the demands of school I like another poster on here have banned in term time this year. She was disappointed but we had a good chat about it and she accepted the decision.

One of her friends who is a bit older is fasting daily but only until dusk time in Mecca (about 6.30 ish) to make it easier on her. I know that at least one boy in the juniors intended to fast all day but felt a bit funny when there teacher decided to double PE lesson and turn all afternoon into an extended tennis tournemant (not sure it was the best decision personally for any of the children) and broke his fast. I think children can handle with great maturity.

pointythings Sat 20-Jul-13 19:20:39

A serious question - how do Muslims in the northernmost parts of Scandinavian countries (Iceland, Norway, Finland) manage Ramadan? At this time of year the sun hardly sets at all and daylight lasts for 23+ hours.

fuzzywuzzy Sat 20-Jul-13 22:52:50

Pointy they should fast & pray according to the timings of the nearest country where the times are distinguishable. This is only for countries where the days are such that there is no discernible sunrise or sunset.

LongStory Sat 20-Jul-13 23:11:01


Ramadan has really stood out and challenged our culture this year, and seeing the children join in, in such conditions, has made me do a lot of thinking about it, since my original post on Monday. I have also spoken to a few people about this issue, this week, possibly got some slightly more sensible replies!

Had a quick chat with the deputy head at the school during sports day and she said she was so inspired by the kids who were fasting, and that they were giving them time to rest and stay indoors in the relative cool. Fuzzywuzzy what you say about the school care of the kids is also very reassuring.

I was also delighted (as a result of one of these conversations) to be invited to Iftar with women at the local mosque. Skipped my tea, took some food along, and nom nom!

I doubt very much that I'll be converting from my faith, but Ramadan this year has certainly made me appreciate the blessings that I receive each day of food, drink and sleep.

LongStory Sat 20-Jul-13 23:21:13

Just saw the second page - thank you Fizzypop. When I realised that kids were fasting in this heat I was so worried, but I thought it would be better to ask a question about it rather than jump to all sorts of assumptions. And I think this thread has hopefully challenged a few of us!

Fizzypop001 Sat 20-Jul-13 23:53:27

im glad that ramadan this year has made you ask questions about our faith and you have got some good answers and got invited to iftar as well hope you enjoyed it. really happy you have learnt something and ihope you continue to ask questions and learn more about the different faiths without people being disrespectful. once you learn more about our religion then youll understand that those people being disrespectful know nothing at all if you want to thats up to you anyway thank you

Bakingnovice Sun 21-Jul-13 00:02:28

Also remember that some kids just want to do what patents and older siblings are doing. My bf is Muslim and she said her kids want to fast mainly because of the excitement of iftari time which is magical - having a feast at around 10pm must seem v exciting to a child. She also said her kids wouldn't be fasting but her 11 yr old ds would be allowed to keep one fast in the holidays. During this fast he would get lots of rest and spend his time praying, contemplating and watching tv. Nothing too physical. Muslims have fasted for centuries, they know what they're doing and I've never heard of any child being forced into it.

It's all so ironic in some ways. Dh used to work with a Muslim guy and every Ramadan there would be whispers around the office about this guys 'ability to concentrate and productivity levels' without food during Ramadan. The irony being that many in that same office practice 5:2 dieting and delay eating for as long as possible during the day. Research has now proven than fasting has many health benefits. It's now very fashionable to fast!

pointythings Sun 21-Jul-13 16:18:31

fuzzy am I wrong in thinking that using the timings of the nearest country where day and night are distinguishable would still leave people fasting for 20+ hours whilst in the part of the world where Islam originated people would not be fasting for nearly as long?

With my utterly pragmatic hat on, why don't all Muslims just fast during the hours between sunrise and sunset in Mecca during Ramadan? That way no-one would be disadvantaged by living a long way north.

fuzzywuzzy Sun 21-Jul-13 20:06:56

No sure but the nearest countries timings would be closest. In winter they'd subject to some of the shortest fasts in the world presumably.

Fasting & prayer timings are dependant on the length of the daylight hours in the country in which you reside, not the length of the day in Makkah.

Fasting in Makkah will have its own challenges.

Those of us who fast are happy to do it as an act of worship.

Chunderella Sun 21-Jul-13 22:05:57

Its fashionable to fast baking and there are demonstrable health benefits to not taking in food for short periods. However, that's not true of going without water. Especially not in a heatwave, in the middle of a much longer summer day than most humans experience. Only a small percentage of the species live as close to the poles as we do and until very recently there were very few Muslims living in those areas. So its not like the faith itself has a huge amount of experience in this regard either. The last time Ramadan was in the middle of summer was a long time ago, the Islamic population of far northern Europe, Canada and Australia has grown hugely since then. So this is something that is pretty much unprecedented in Islam's long history, in terms of numbers.

Now if people want to refrain from food and drink for x hours at a time that's nobody's business but their own, and I'd defend their right to put whatever they want into their bodies whenever they want. But let's not pretend it bears the slightest resemblance to 5:2 or to a fluid only diet. Or that there's no way that observing it for 18 hours a day at 30 degrees plus peak temp couldn't possibly make a difference to someone's performance at work.

Fizzypop001 Sun 21-Jul-13 22:52:22

well to be honest i think it order pends on when that someone started work and finished work because if it was in the morning it would not really affect anyones performance at work because we wake up at 2am in the morning and eat and drink then pray. as a muslim i cansay that it would not affect work performance in the morning but after 6pm it might do

fuzzywuzzy Sun 21-Jul-13 23:40:24

If my performance at work was affected by fasting I'd expect to be pulled up on it.

I work in an air conditioned office and am more alert and on target whilst fasting actually.

Again if fasting affected work performance Muslims would be losing their jobs up and down the country, my dad worked in high powered corporate capacity for 40 odd years, he fasted every single Ramadan & he never once got pulled up for under performing during Ramadan, the nature of his job was such that he would have most definitely lost his job had he performed badly at any point.

Muslims have lived in the UK for many years, my grandparents lived and worked here and fasted and not one of us has ever been reprimanded for under performing at work fasting or not.

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 03:35:20

thats great fuzzywuzzy so doesnt affect work performance then and i do agree people would be losing their jobs if they could not work especially in this recession competition for work is high so underperformance would not be accepted. when i worked a few years back and fasted i did not underperform in my job was just fine broke my fast at work but the people i worked with were happy and never suggested that my fast was affecting my work so have to agree with fuzzywuzzy.now i have children so stay at home for them but some days feel abit tired after 6pm as been busy with them and go out quite abit so only natural i guess

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 03:40:38

i was thinking about now rather then when i was working but broke my fast at that time around 7 to half 7 in afternoon and was fine.

Chunderella Mon 22-Jul-13 09:26:53

As a Muslim you certainly can't make a blanket statement about whether people's work in the morning would be affected or not fizzypop. You yourself might be alright until about 6pm, others would struggle way before that and yet more might even be fine afterwards. Humans don't all have the same levels of thirst. Nor do we all exert ourselves in the same way during the working day.

I certainly don't suggest that the work performance of all fasting Muslims would automatically be affected, but nor is it correct to say that if fasting did affect work, Muslims across the country would be losing their jobs. There are lots of reasons why this might not be the case. Some Muslims are self-employed or work for sympathetic and/or Muslim employers. If I were running a business and had a usually very good Muslim worker that I was friendly with, I'd probably cut them some slack for underperforming, so I can see how others might. Some Muslims take a lot of the time off, my colleague at my old job did this. Some might underperform slightly but not enough to trigger disciplinary proceedings. Some might underperform enough to piss off their employers but not be disciplined because the employer fears a backlash, or thinks they won't be able to get anyone else who can do the job so well, or doesn't want the hassle of a replacement. Some might be disciplined but keep it to themselves. These are all possibilities, just like the prospect that no fasting employee has ever had any kind of performance dip at all.

peachpudding Mon 22-Jul-13 09:40:13

What would happen to me if my child went into school hungry, told the teacher she was on a no food/water diet so she could be skinny like her mother? Then if the school contacted me I explained it was ok because she was just copying me, it was her choice and if it ever made her ill I would stop her.

Oh and then we add in the hottest day of the year, sports activities etc and the girl says I ain't drinking water it makes me look fatter, but if I faint I will think about it.

Do you think the school would say, great lets teach all the other kids about how great it is to starve/dehydrate yourself, who came up with this stupid idea of healthy school dinners anyway? Or would they consider ringing social services and reporting me for neglect?

How can anyone seriously say a child's choices are the product of free will? Do we let them copy their parents smoking or drinking and say they are choosing to do that (no one is forcing them) if it ever harms them I will ask them to stop but they like doing it because its joining in with the family. Lets teach other children at school about our great life choices!

fuzzywuzzy Mon 22-Jul-13 09:41:11

I'd think Chunderella in the current climate a lot of Muslims woudl lose their jobs.

Running your own business you perform however you want and your profits reflect that, I've a friend who is a driving instructor she has most of her students in the mornings and works till 5pm, but that's also due to childcare arrangements. she works very hard tho.

I've taken half days/full days as annual leave during ramadan and that's fine too.

Employers making adjustments is up to them, I do know that the morning and before 5pm I am at my most productive, but then I go home at five so I think I automatically shut down.

I used work as a sales girl when I was much younger (nine hours on my feet) and I remember a to of us taking our breaks during breaking fast time, none of us were reprimanded for being less productive than a normal day either and they would have reprimanded us had they caught us slacking off.

fuzzywuzzy Mon 22-Jul-13 09:49:00

Peachpudding, my children attend an Islamic school the school asked that all children bring in packed lunches regardless of whether they are fasting or not.

I'm not sure what more anyone can do.

I didn't wake my girls for the pre-dawn meal and my youngest is now not speaking to me, I don't want them to fast butthey do, I may let her try the last few days if she wants on the provisio she eats when she wants to.

Most children that I know have fasted half days so eat at midday, that's quite a popular way of including children, some children will do one day out of the entire month of ramadan, on a weekend so doesn't affect school.

I did my first fast when I was seven, I remember it pretty well, it was also in summer, I fasted on a weekend and I was so so so determined to carry it thro and I did, much to everyone surprise (my mum trying to coax me to break my fast because I had fasted long enough and telling me stories to encourage me to break my fast early).

I don't know how to force a determined child not to fast.

Chunderella Mon 22-Jul-13 09:58:25

Well I've just given you lots of reasons why that wouldn't necessarily be the case fuzzywuzzy. I've also thought of another, which is that some Muslims have been disciplined, but in the current climate don't want to draw attention to themselves for fear of prejudice or worse.

Chunderella Mon 22-Jul-13 09:59:55

As regards children, a quick look at the feeding board will tell us it's not that easy to force a child to eat if they don't want to! There may not be that much some parents can do.

fuzzywuzzy Mon 22-Jul-13 10:06:00

I actually think for those of us who work in an office its far easier makes the time go faster and its cooler (I'm in an air conditioned office).

I've not met anyone whose work has suffered for fasting, doesn't mean there wouldn't be tho. But I don't think there are droves of Muslims slacking off because they're fasting.

Chunderella Mon 22-Jul-13 10:13:52

I doubt there are droves slacking off. For one thing if you know you're less likely to be able to keep up the pace, you're more likely to book annual leave during Ramadan for that reason. This is what my friend at my old job did. Slacking and performance suffering are not the same thing, though. One is deliberate, the other now. And I think you need to realise that lots of us office workers don't have the good luck to have air conditioning!

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 10:29:12

well i didnt have a muslim employer and i didnt take alot of time off either i even used to work on eid and celebrate later on in the day so that does not reflect all of us infact i was praised because i always was at work and was on time and about us getting affected during morning or afternoon well my dd goes nursery and mums their come tired in afternoon around 6ish from busy days its only natural to wake up fresh as you have slept for 8 hours plus or is that still not enough for you chunderella that you wake up tired. its our natural clock to be more productive in the mornings and more tired closer to bedtime or are you wide awake at bedtime as well. school children are a good example they start school fresh and come out tired so dont know what your talking about. i seen a underperformer at my work place when i was their took lots of time off and walked out of the workplace when he was soppose to be their and he had no religion and was english so dont really no what your talking about.as we have been fasting for generations dont understand why their are issues being raised and i have seen kids as young as 12 asking for alchol why do you have to produce id then if children are not asking for it whatever what about clubs etc no underage girls their and you call these people humans cant even walk home and vomitting all over the place our society is getting worse and just a few years back when all those kids went into london set shops on fire and robbed others and police couldnt stop them those kids where as young as 11. most kids in islam do not fast and its down to parents if they listen to their kids request or not so im sure we are a good judge whether they should or not

fuzzywuzzy Mon 22-Jul-13 10:32:16

I don't see a problem with taking annual leave during ramadan actually, its annual leave to be taken as you wish and as your employer approves surely?

I also didnt take last Eid off work as I had a deadline to make but this year I intend to take the final week of ramadan off including Eid.

peachpudding Mon 22-Jul-13 10:38:28

So the children are fasting against parents and schools wishes? But why is this, they must somehow believe it is good. Shouldn't they be brought up to believe it is harmful for children to do this?

I cant think of any other adult activity that we allow children to do even though it is harmful to them and we just throw our hands up and say,oh well what can I do.

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 10:43:34

what rubbish just given a few examples and i can go on from now till tomorrow

fuzzywuzzy Mon 22-Jul-13 10:53:47

No actually the children fast because they want to, they are monitored closely and there is food and water avaialble if they wish to break their fast at any point.

It's not bad for them actually, I don't see any news reports of children being rushed to hospital due to fasting.

There are no droves of children fasitng either it's a few, some do it for one day out of the entire month some fast for half days.

I'm not telling my child she will drop dead from fasting for a day either, I have told them the days are too long and hot and I'd rather they did not fast, my eldest has fasted for one day, she was fine.

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 10:55:02

why dont we just stop this trend because their is no agreement anywhere and think we are doing wrong to our kids despite the fact me and fuzzy have said that kids by parents permission can do half days and a maxof one of one two days. i really think you should turn your attention to other big issues in society.this is not one of them or we would have media and social services on our backs.

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 11:25:02

fasting is good as research has proved alchol that some kids are drinking is bad as it harms kidneys and can kill a child and even kill a adult if too much is drunken. in pregnancy you cant drink but you can fast abit if the mother wishes with a healthy baby alcHol on other hand affects baby and smoking as well which seen some mothers doing. fasting is no issue for us people we are not killing ourselves as it is good and we are in control of everything so let it be

Chunderella Mon 22-Jul-13 11:34:36

Why on earth have you assumed I think taking annual leave during Ramadan is a problem fizzypop? There is nothing, literally nothing in my post that would imply that. And secondly, what does that rant about alcohol have to do with anything at all? There are those amongst us who neither fast in work nor attend whilst hungover, you know. And even if there weren't, and literally everyone in the country was doing one or the other (hell, there are some people who even do both) it still wouldn't mean that fasting didn't make any difference to anyone's work performance.

Lastly, your comment 'and you call these people humans' is absolutely fucking repulsive at best, and outright bigotry at worst.

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 11:57:00

well ive seen people coming out of clubs pissing themselves vomiting and sleeping on the floor unable to walk why do that to yourselves and wake up next morning not knowing what happened and people fighting as well the above post mentioned alchol so had to say what id seen clearly this is bad and fasting is an issue i clearly think their are more bigger issues that need sorting first before making fasting a issue. how many children adults etc have died as a result of drink driving and how much abuse is happening as a result of alchol in peoples homes and peoples homes being broken you just have to go on jeremy kyle show to see that and hows has fasting affected anyone its hasnt its made us remember our religion more and feel how the poor feel and youve got an issue i really think you need to look to the bad things in society rather then looking to muslims and saying bad because we are good parents to our kids and dont abuse them and remember our religion and do what we can towards it

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 12:03:32

letting kids lose control of themselves is repulsive and should not be happening parents should be in control of them and look after them in a good way now turning it round can now see how muslims feel when you point out something that is not even a issue

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 12:12:13

anyway im not talking anymore this is going far enough one poster said alchol in post so was comparing if you guys got issue with fasting then fair enough we all havea right to not like something that it

Chunderella Mon 22-Jul-13 15:59:18

My problem here is your lack of logic fizzy, not any kind of personal offence. As I don't do any of the things you object to, there would be no reason for me to take anything personally even if you hadn't clearly identified yourself as someone totally without logic. Your response to the possibility of fasting causing any harm is to start chuntering about alcohol abuse, as though that somehow renders not drinking water for 18 hours in a heatwave risk free. Absolutely nonsensical. The irony being that in both situations, you would be risking dehydration.

And you've still yet to provide any kind of explanation for your absolutely revolting comment about people whose behaviour you disapprove of not really being people.

Chunderella Mon 22-Jul-13 16:01:59

Incidentally, why do you spend enough time hanging around outside nightclubs at closing time to have seen people pissing themselves and vomiting? Seems an odd hangout for a Muslim, especially one who obviously thinks herself morally superior to people who don't drink alcohol.

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