Teacher humiliated my son in front of classmates and parents!

(296 Posts)
FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 02:07:02

My son (6) was found swinging on a low tree branch at school during pickup time last week and (I was there but didn't see him doing it as i was dealing with my other lo) a teacher screamed at the top of her voice for him to get down... He of course immediately stopped what he was doing and came to her. Now this is where my problem is... She proceeded to humiliate and intimidate him by shouting in his face in front of all his classmates and parents. She was about 2' away from him and RANTED at him for an unnecessarily long time. He didn't cry (god knows I would have) but told me afterwards he was scared of her and felt his knees shaking.

The next day he didn't want to go to school and was upset several times in the night (nightmares). My issue is not that she reprimanded my son but that she proceeded to humiliate and intimidate him in the process, she just went on and on like she was trying to make him cry... I was so shocked and upset I couldn't say a word to her and just grabbed my children and left, if I had confronted her at that time I would have ripped her head off and would have been way too emotional. I now feel like I should have stepped in and I have failed him, I can't stop crying with the guilt! and I can't sleep.

I have reported this teacher to the school and when they asked what I wanted to achieve from my complaint, I said I wanted her to apologise to him for humiliating and intimidating him... They just looked at me like 'you want what?!' am I being unreasonable to request that from a person in a position of trust? My son has long term confidence issues of which the school is aware of and this incident has been very damaging. I don't think they will do anything about it...

Any advice on what else I can do? This teacher has been reported before. Thanks so much.

What was she saying during her rant?

What did you report the teacher for on the prev occasion?

Now, your child, does he have form for inappropriate behaviour at school or was this a first offence kind of thing?

FadedSapphire Tue 18-Jun-13 06:54:39

I think with your son maybe it was a sledgehammer to crack a nut situation. I think if school asked me what I wanted to achieve I would say just for the teacher to adapt 'crossness' to each child. Maybe some children would need lengthy ticking off though does sound ott. Would not expect apology to child [don't think] but would expect school to reassure him about coming back to school. Was it his class teacher?
Also was tree swinging very dangerous? Maybe have word with ds about what is ok and not ok to play with. May have all been told in assembly not to swing/ climb on tree.
Hope he feels better soon about school as at his age should be a joyful place.

claraschu Tue 18-Jun-13 07:03:01

That is terrible, and she is way out of order.

Someone who is such a jerk probably won't have the inner confidence to see that she is wrong and apologise. Still, it might be worth talking to her 1 to 1 and explaining about how upset and frightened he was- you never know, maybe she will think twice before doing it again.

burberryqueen Tue 18-Jun-13 07:18:51

some primary school teachers enjoy this, IME/O - complain away but ready for that question 'what do you hope to achieve'? Also, if you are complaining about the same teacher I would hesitate to go back to the head as they will have you down as a troublemaker. she sounds like a cow btw.

feelthis Tue 18-Jun-13 07:23:32

Of course she should apologise -she is a teacher , paid to do a job like you and me are. Her workplace is a school not an office. Can you imagine going into the office and screaching at length in a colleagues face!

Imo teachers and heads are no different to anyone else at their place of work- they should not be held in awe and are not unchallengeable and their school is not a little dictatorship where what

In most cases they are paid to do a job by the council and have a number of reporting lines up to the equivalent of the Head of Education.
. It just so happens their place of work, aka a school, is a self contained unit so people forget who they work for.

Porka Tue 18-Jun-13 07:28:31

Frankly even if your son was doing something dangerous ( not that swinging on a tree branch is necessarily dangerous but it may have been in this case for some reason); or was causing damage to the tree, I wouldn't expect a rant to a six year old. It sounds like the teacher lost it completely. Have you spoken to any other witnesses though ?

I do not think though that you are going to get anywhere by trying to make the teacher apologise. If the relationship has irretrievably broken down and the school support the teacher, I would put your child in another school.

exoticfruits Tue 18-Jun-13 07:36:55

You have to help your DS get over it- he will meet situations like that throughout his life. From the response it is fairly clear that your DS will not get an apology. If you are unhappy with the school in other respects you need to consider changing, otherwise you help him brush it off. You have to pick your battles, and this isn't one if them.

MadeOfStarDust Tue 18-Jun-13 07:52:46

Our school is like this - sometimes the kids run "feral" round the playground waiting for parents to arrive - the "fierce" teacher is the one sent out to deal with it - whoever is misbehaving/breaking the rules - (don't climb or swing on trees... don't run around like an idiot, as it can hurt the little ones etc....) will get shouted at.

He broke a rule and was shouted at.. hopefully won't break the rules again, or you will keep him closer... kids break rules all the time at school and are disciplined for it - a shouted rant will stop 30 other kids breaking the same rule... just happened to be your son who got it this time.... didn't he know he was doing wrong?

exoticfruits Tue 18-Jun-13 07:55:32

He must have known that you don't swing on trees in the school playground. I bet he didn't do it at playtimes, I bet he never saw DCs swinging on it at playtimes.

burberryqueen Tue 18-Jun-13 07:57:07

didn't he know he was doing wrong? that is not the point, normal, effective teachers are quite capable of telling off a child without screaming at him at length and humiliating him

battlestarB Tue 18-Jun-13 07:57:37

why on earth can't kids swing on trees now?

burberryqueen Tue 18-Jun-13 08:01:57

oh goodness the hoo hah at primary schools if boys do anything boyish is incredible these days, just incredible. IME before anyone starts!

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 08:07:29

If you have a reasonable complaint escalate it through the normal channels. Personally I suspect that what we're discussing is a personality clash. I think this teacher might have a bit too much of the Miss Trunchball in her for your liking. But there is not necessarily anything wrong with being like Miss Trunchball.

I personally would deal with a Miss Trunchball by yelling more loudly in her face than she was yelling in mine. It wouldn't fix anything but it might make her think twice before shouting at me or any member of my family again.

FrustratedSycamoresRocks Tue 18-Jun-13 08:07:31

Is it just me that thinks if you don't want your child to be told off by a teacher then you supervise them on school property?

I was so shocked and upset I couldn't say a word to her and just grabbed my children and left, if I had confronted her at that time I would have ripped her head off and would have been way too emotional. I now feel like I should have stepped in and I have failed him, I can't stop crying with the guilt! and I can't sleep.

OP is the humiliation and guilt more your sons or yours?
I your other lo hardwork? It seems perhaps you have your hands full, and perhaps this is where your guilt is stemming from?

MadeOfStarDust Tue 18-Jun-13 08:12:37

At our school they can't swing on trees because the trees are young and still setting in - they have killed one of them already, so they would be shouted at. It is part of taking care of their environment.

Some teachers shout, it is not nice for the kid being shouted at, the kids witnessing it will not want to be shouted at and will not break the rule.... this is the real world - every school I've experienced has "the" teacher - the one who breaks up fights, the one who shouts, the one who kids get sent to if they misbehave in class.... i.e. the one responsible for discipline - the one kids listen to...

exoticfruits Tue 18-Jun-13 08:14:08

A small tree in a school playground won't have a low branch for long- it will be damaged! It is nothing to do with children swinging- everything to do with caring for the environment.

GibberTheMonkey Tue 18-Jun-13 08:14:42

My ds was treated to ridicule ina pe class by a ta. He ran out of the school and I had to collect him from nearby woods.
My experience is that though you can complain and the lea will say they've been reprimanded, you won't be allowed to see any evidence of it and the school may close ranks. She was made to apologise though.
My ds has since moved schools

exoticfruits Tue 18-Jun-13 08:18:17

If you want a resilient child you help them over it! I would make a joke of it - in a laugh with you sort of way.

I have failed him, I can't stop crying with the guilt! and I can't sleep.

He's 6, he was doing something he's probably been told not to do a dozen times already. Yours seems like a huge over-reaction, and it would be better if you built up resilience in you son, instead of constantly crying over it. He will be picking up your reaction.

exoticfruits Tue 18-Jun-13 08:19:10

If there are more issues than that consider a change if schools.

exoticfruits Tue 18-Jun-13 08:21:19

You have failed him if you can't sleep! How can he be resilient against life's little knocks if you can't? Set an example. If you can cope with the small things you are stronger to cope with the big knocks you will get in adult life.

AuntieStella Tue 18-Jun-13 08:25:13

Well, the "screaming" may have been necessary to be heard - spoken instructions don't carry across a busy playground.

Length of time she adminished him is subjective, I doubt you'll have a complaint upheld about that.

Shouting at a child once you standing by him is awful, assuming he had come down and was paying attention by that time. I'd focus on this if you complain. Were there any other witnesses?

exoticfruits Tue 18-Jun-13 08:27:40

I really wouldn't start a battle about it. You lost in the first round - I can't see you winning on the next round if you go on.

iwantanafternoonnap Tue 18-Jun-13 08:36:15

There was another thread about a tree and a child being humiliated a few months back. The teacher/playground person paraded the child through the school. Wonder if it is the same school??

Still not accepatable IMO

greencolorpack Tue 18-Jun-13 08:36:16

This happened to my son in reception, in coming home time I saw the teacher physically shove him out the door with an air of complete contempt. I had put up with a nursery teacher who I used to have panic attacks collecting my ds cos of her behaviour so I decided enough is enough and went to complain to the head. She was receptive, didn't close ranks, said she would speak to Miss X about it and sure enough it never happened again.

So my advice would be to speak to the head teacher.

TheFallenNinja Tue 18-Jun-13 08:39:24

Kids do things that teachers bollock them for - fact.

A good bollocking once in a while is character building - fact.

Teachers should be able to bollock kids.
Crying and not sleeping. It seems a little melodramatic.

You clearly weren't that bothered at the time as you said and did nothing, now you want to "tell".

I think there's only half a story here.

tiggytape Tue 18-Jun-13 08:43:51

Teachers are usually very stern with any children messing around in the playground at home time. They try to encourage them to stay off of the equipment and out of the trees as it is dangerous, they also want to make sure the parents know they are supposed to be supervising them and they don't want children wandering away from their parents as a very busy time of day.

You seem to have taken the telling off a lot worse than he did. You have complained to the school and also presumably made sure your DS knows he is not supposed to be swinging from the trees at home time. I would leave it at that.

cornyblend37 Tue 18-Jun-13 08:43:55

'A good bollocking once in a while is character building - fact. '

really? why so?

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 08:52:16

Bit precious OP, why is your son so special that he can't be shouted at? Your reaction to this is well over the top. If you didn't want him shouted at perhaps you should have told him off for arsing about on the tree? You know, maybe parent him?hmm

forehead Tue 18-Jun-13 09:03:31

Your ds was doing something that he was not supposed to be doing. He was reprimanded by the teacher. Why are you making an issue out of this. ?
If your ds had injured himself you would have been furious
To be honest I think you are out of order for asking for an apology. If you want to complain about the way in which the teacher reprimanded your ds, then so be it .
Apology????

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 09:38:35

Ok. id like to clarify... my child is NOT a troublemaker, he was letting off steam as he hadn't been out all day (raining) and he's an active boy! god forbid he acts like a CHILD! it was a first 'offence' and Im not opposed to him being told off FGS
I have never complained about anything to the school, although I've had many opportunities - these other complaints were from other parents and I have it on good authority that they are for the same reasons (humiliation of their LOs) Its also not the 1st time she's upset ds1, in nursery (aged 3) he had an accident and was changed IN FRONT of everyone and made to wear girls underwear even tho they had plenty boys, thus being subjected to teasing from his peers! she did this more than once and was asked to leave so perhaps another teacher reported her at the time, but shes now made a comeback and placed in Rec class dealing with 4/5yo children!!!
@frustratedsycamorerocks The reason I had my eyes off him for one second was because I was talking to ds2's teacher as he'd had a nosebleed that day. I'm not a parent who lets my children run 'feral'.
@agentprovocateur I do not cry in front of him, who does that?
Can I just re-iterate that I'm not opposed to him being pulled up on his behavior - its the HUMILIATION and INTIMIDATION I have issue with, which btw she ONLY does to kids. She's a bully.
@learnandsay I think that when multiple people have complained about 'miss trunchball' and nothing has been done it shows the school is letting our children down.

Can i just add, the school has a very strict ethos on respecting each other and not hurting anyone's feelings, let alone bullying. This is why IMO its all the more important for this teacher to apologise to ds as surely its practicing what they preach! or is it one rule for one, one rule for the other. The kids are asked to apologise to each other should such a thing happen.

Sparklysilversequins Tue 18-Jun-13 09:46:31

Kudos to you for not saying anything at the time. If it was as bad as you say I would have completely lost it with her I think.

I would not be brushed off I am afraid, I wouldn't be asking for an apology, if you have to ask for it then it means nothing. I would want a meeting with her and the HT where we discussed my child and what might be going on to lead to such an overreaction on her part. Failing that I would be contacting the governors.

I don't really believe teachers always know best having been bullied mercilessly by one at school.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 09:49:12

I can see where you're coming from, but if Miss Trunchball has made a reappearance since her nursery knickers disaster and hordes of parents have complained about her and been batted away like flies I don't suppose the frontal assault approach will be any more successful in taming or removing her today than it was yesterday. I personally wouldn't try either I'd just give as good as I got and have done with it.

On the whole, if it's just a personality clash, I don't think you've got that many options. As far as I can see you just don't like the woman. But the world is full of people who don't particularly like each other.

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 09:55:15

Wow TheFallenNinja you must be his teacher!!! you sound exactly like her. Now that you've read a bit more (see post above) do you still have the same opinion??? I didn't see your post until after posting my follow up. Can you please clarify how an adult bullying a 6yo is 'character building' nice attitude btw! we're talking about verbal abuse here, would it have been ok for her to just give him a slap!! I take offence at the accusation of not watching my ds, you have no idea ok.

TheFallenNinja Tue 18-Jun-13 09:56:45

Because once in a while we need to have our behaviour firmly challenged.

TheFallenNinja Tue 18-Jun-13 09:59:32

Never said you weren't watching your child.

You clearly want to chase an insincere and forced apology, why not get on the phone and do that.

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 10:02:05

@learnandsay its not a personality clash, I wish you could meet her. I think that even the teachers find her 'ways' intimidating hence do nothing about it. I just cant believe the school are allowing this woman in a position like this. shes def in the wrong job and gets her kicks out of picking on little kids!
I didn't want to undermine her authority by confronting her in front of everyone but if she isn't spoken to I may have no option.

SaveMeNow Tue 18-Jun-13 10:05:35

I am sorry but this is totally unacceptable! It is never, ever, ever ok for an adult to humiliate and frighten a child. That is not discipline - that's bullying. I am genuinely surprised how many of you just accept this as "part of life".

CabbageLooking Tue 18-Jun-13 10:13:49

While I agree that it is possible the teacher went too far (although we still don't know precisely what was said), it is important that children learn to deal with being told off. As someone else said, it sounds like your DS needs to develop some resilience as it's perfectly normal to be told off for doing something he shouldn't be, even if on this occasion the telling-off was over the top. Perhaps you should focus on building his confidence and learning to keep things in proportion - both skills that will be useful in later life.

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 10:17:57

@fallenninja how does humiliating and scaring children vouch for being 'firmly challenged'? she virtually spat in his face she was so close and screaming so loud! I think your being very unreasonable. Are you a bully too? Maybe I'll 'firmly challenge' her and see if she wants to pick on someone her own size.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 10:25:47

saveme, if the teacher is actually bullying then it will be escalateable using the established channels.

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 10:28:31

@Cabbagelooking. He has confidence issues, which the school is well aware of... this has SHATTERED his confidence.
I'll quote part of what she said verbatim... "Get down off from there and come right here" ds immediately did as he was told. <shouting>"what a stupid thing to do. you know your not supposed to be swinging on trees. are you an IDIOT?. we were all talking about safety in assembly today and now you do this? wheres your brain? did you leave it at home today, is that why your being so stupid in front of everyone and acting like an idiot?!" and it went on and on and on, all the time shouting at the top of her voice and all the time pointing in his face. Like I said, she wouldn't talk to an adult like that... its made myself (and other parents) think i shes like this in front of us, what is she like when were not there?
Am I being unreasonable to think this was intimidating and humiliating and insist on an apology?

exoticfruits Tue 18-Jun-13 10:29:31

You have to face facts- I would be astounded, from OP, if she apologised. You either help your DC deal with it or change schools. Or you can battle on- but you need to be more than a lone voice to get anywhere.

TheFallenNinja Tue 18-Jun-13 10:31:40

So did she actually spit or virtually and did she actually scream or did she shout.

I seem to represent what you don't like In the teacher so I see why you wouldn't like my comments, but I can comfortably say that I am not a bully, quite the opposite, just to put that accusation to bed.

If you are so angry at the treatment of your child by this teacher why didn't you challenge it at the time? If the attack was so vicious in its nature, so humiliating in its content why would a forced apology be sufficient, if, as you say, this teacher has form for this that you have on good authority and she has previously been asked to leave, why is she back.

You say you have had multiple causes to complain but haven't. Why?

If this teacher is so bad why do children get sent back there for more humiliation and intimidation day after day from this teacher you now label a bully?

BrainSurgeon Tue 18-Jun-13 10:37:05

There is no way a teacher should be allowed to call a child idiot, regardless of the circumstances.
Totally unacceptable.
Did other parents hear the teacher say that?
I would have pulled her hair out then and there complain big time.

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 10:38:46

So after being told in assembly about safety your child decides to fuck about on a tree and your unhappy he gets a bollocking? Why didn't YOU tell him to pack it in then?

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 10:40:35

If the teacher is in the habit of abusing children in front of the whole school it shouldn't be too hard to record it on a mobile phone and send the video to the local paper.

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 10:41:32

Because, Ninja, Im not 'that' parent who takes offence at every little think. this was huge. she VIRTUALLY SPAT she was in his face! and its irrelevant as to weather she screamed or shouted - it was loud, and very nasty. Does that answer your question?
If you are so angry at the treatment of your child by this teacher why didn't you challenge it at the time? If the attack was so vicious in its nature, so humiliating in its content why would a forced apology be sufficient, if, as you say, this teacher has form for this that you have on good authority and she has previously been asked to leave, why is she back. If this teacher is so bad why do children get sent back there for more humiliation and intimidation day after day from this teacher you now label a bully? why are you asking me this, i didn't employ her? I also explained before that I didn't confront her as I would have lost my rag and proceeded to undermine her authority, I wanted to go through the proper channels but now it appears that they do absolutely nothing about it and so my reason for starting this thread is for advice on what I can do now - not be judged.

TheFallenNinja Tue 18-Jun-13 10:42:25

So she stood there shouting that, verbatim, and you did nothing. Not a thing. Nada.

Startail Tue 18-Jun-13 10:43:46

DD1 was always climbing things and getting shouted at.

Nightmares??? Not sodding likely. She just looked for something higher and more inappropriate to climb so the rant was justified.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 10:46:30

'A good bollocking once in a while is character building - fact.'

Because you say so, it's fact? hmm er ok. What an archaic attitude.

Would you say it's good for a wife to have her husband shout in her face every once in a while because it's 'character building'? No? Thought not.....

Or do you think children are fair game to get abused by adults? Because shouting in anyone's face is abusive.

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 10:48:42

So after being told in assembly about safety your child decides to fuck about on a tree and your unhappy he gets a bollocking? Why didn't YOU tell him to pack it in then?
BECAUSE I WAS TALKING TO DS2 TEACHER (facing DS1 but I like to make eye contact with whom Im talking to) ABOUT HIS NOSEBLEED!!!!!!! I took my eyes off ds1 for one second. Are you ACTUALLY serious?! you think its ok to call a child and idiot and stupid????? Yes, tell him off... yes shout at him for doing something dangerous ..... but hell no, DO NOT HUMILIATE CHILDREN.... what kind of a person are you. by the way, he was not 'fucking about' he was swinging on a low branch (about 3 foot off ground) - hardly life threatening.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 10:55:40

Swinging on a low branch is hardly something to get shouted at about in any case (don't most boys do this??).

This teacher sounds like she has an anger problem. My dd has a play area outside her school with a kind of bridge on which all the girl somersault over the rope on while they are waiting at pick up time. No teacher has ever batted an eyelid about that.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 10:56:20

This teacher either has anger issues or it makes her feel powerful to frighten little kids.

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 10:56:58

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learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 10:57:05

I think the concern was more for the tree than the child.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 10:58:17

Put your big girl panties on and get over it.

Mumsnet advice!! The type you can't buy.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 11:00:02

FrayedNerves - ignore the nasty comments. Good teachers know how to deal with situations effectively without totally losing it.

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 11:01:21

yes lottieandmia I believe she does, she wont talk to adults like that, just kids. she'll be nice to adults and talk to them appropriately then in the same breath scream at the kids.

BrainSurgeon Tue 18-Jun-13 11:06:00

Agree with lottie, ignore nasty posts... wtf?!?

My advice, if you wonder what can be done now, is to go see the headmaster and ask if they find this teacher's behaviour towards kids acceptable. Specify that other parents can confirm the insults and tone. If the school say yes that's fine, your child deserved it..... Then I'd move schools!

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 11:09:56

delboys I love the way you justify how a teacher who is paid to nurture and empower a child in being able to make correct choices can act this way and its all ok - its all relevant!!! you think that your sarcastic comments are funny - do you even have kids?
yeah, cos you must watch you kids every move even when you blink, even when your checking your other child is ok - your comments are irrelevant pointless at this time and frankly your showing yourself up to being a right prat!

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 11:11:51

freyed, I think they're only posting rubbish like that to wind you up because every time someone posts some windup post you go off on a rant and I think they're finding it funny.

TheFallenNinja Tue 18-Jun-13 11:14:23

"Would you say it's good for a wife to have her husband shout in her face every once in a while because it's 'character building'? No? Thought not..... "

Who said anything about shouting? Who said anything about in anyones face?

Not me.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 11:14:48

Well learnandsay - posting to wind someone up about a real problem is against the rules of mumsnet.

This is not even in am I being unreasonable so no excuses for unhelpful, nasty posts.

Reasonable people know that it's not ok for anyone to shout in anyone else's face and in the case of a teacher doing it to a child is downright unprofessional to say the least.

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 11:15:20

learnandsay - noted thanks smile its just that im feeling awful about this whole thing and I cant bear the thought that some individuals think its ok to treat kids like this.

stargirl1701 Tue 18-Jun-13 11:15:55

OP, I just don't think you get any answers here. We don't know the situation in any depth. This could be a case of a teacher who is at the end of her rope - children in all day due to wet weather, safety brought up at Assembly (ongoing school issue?), seemingly unsupervised child at home time, etc.

Or, it could be a teacher who ought to find another profession as she simply doesn't seem to enjoy the job/like children. This tends to leak out in every situation.

I have worked with both types of colleagues. I have been the first type twice in my career. You aren't going to get any answers here. We would need to have witnessed the incident and/or know the personalities involved.

My advice would be to let it go. You have made your complaint to the HT. It will have been noted. That's all that is going to happen here.

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 11:17:24

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TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 11:18:06

FrayedNerves: With all due respect you're starting to come across as a leedle bit hysterical now.

If we accept that possibly the teacher's reaction to your child was excessive, which most seem to, then yes, you should approach the school, which you have, and they have asked you what you want from them.

Which is? Do you want her officially reprimanded? Sacked? Publicly flogged? Put on some kind of register?

It's not going to happen. What is going to happen (indeed, I surmise you are probably quite well known in the staffroom) is that you will be labelled as the mother whose little angel mustn't be told off, even when he is presumably putting himself (and a tree) in danger on school property. With his mother present. Who was talking to another teacher, about another issue.

You really are doing yourself, and your child, no favours.

But, hell yes, change schools, then come back and moan again next time diddums misbehaves.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 11:20:08

'Who said anything about shouting? Who said anything about in anyones face?'

Did you read the OP? The teacher didn't just reprimand the child - she shouted in his face! That is not an appropriate, measured response to anything. It is not the same as just being told off.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 11:20:27

stargirl: agreed. None of us know anything other than what the OP has told us.

I find it odd that she didn't see the incident but did see the telling off and is able to describe it in blood curdling terrifying detail.

I think that says a lot acksherly. Cba to watch her child in a potentially dangerous situation, but when he gets told off for it, she is CSI precision itself.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 11:22:21

I think there are some people on MN who feel that teachers should never be questioned. When in reality there are plenty of teachers who just aren't any good at their job and should not be doing it.

iwantanafternoonnap Tue 18-Jun-13 11:23:47

Blimey this has got nasty hasn't it!

Erm he was swinging on a tree I encourage mine to climb up them, play on them and have fun on them. It is not a crime and did not deserve a scream in the face. If the school has a policy of not climbing on the tree then OP's child needed to be told off but screaming in the face...no!

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 11:23:53

You are all out of order for saying that this was the OP's fault in the first place. She's already said she was speaking to her other child's teacher at the time.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 11:23:57

Yes, there are. There are also some parents who refuse to accept that when a child does wrong, it gets told it's done wrong.

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 11:24:18

thanks everyone, you've been very supportive. TTFN

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 11:24:34

Well I don't believe the screaming in the face anyway. <shrugs>

FadedSapphire Tue 18-Jun-13 11:24:47

I think you want this teacher monitored re her temper? A school can monitor teacher's behaviour if deemed necessary. Calm letter to Head re length of telling off, screeching and inappropriate language of the teacher. If you feel the Head will ignore, copy to Chair of Governors.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 11:28:28

'Yes, there are. There are also some parents who refuse to accept that when a child does wrong, it gets told it's done wrong.'

Your posts and the posts of some others come across as willfully obtuse.

The OP has said a number of times that she doesn't disagree with her child being reprimanded if necessary but for the way in which it was done.

Some teachers are like this - a friend of mine actually had a teacher come out at the end of the day and scream and shout at her saying she couldn't cope with my friend's dd who was in her class.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 11:32:11

I spoke to my daughter's teacher in no uncertain terms when she was smacked.

I am many things. Obtuse has never been one of them.

There are too many little hints in the OP's rants posts that indicate over excessive PFB zeal. I confidently predict that this mother will find fault with every teacher that ever dares criticise her children in any way.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 11:33:02

If a teacher came to me and said she couldn't cope with my child's behaviour then the first thing I would do would be to apologise for it.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 11:33:42

It's bad form to accuse the OP of lying.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 11:36:42

Well if a teacher can't cope with any child then they should not be teaching.

I have seen examples of so many teachers who are lazy and uninspiring (and probably only do it for the long holidays) when I actually worked as a TA in a school. It's the same as any other profession.

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 11:40:03

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 11:42:48

delboys, what do you mean the parenting was shit? What are you talking about?

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 11:52:56

deboys RTT properly. I have reported your post - you have no right to attack the OP's parenting.

Some posters on MN just like to come on here and have a go at the OP for the fun of it. The OP doesn't deserve any of the rude comments about either her son or her parenting.

We are all upset when our children are treated in a way that is unfair. All children do get told off at school, but in an appropriate way. It's not unreasonable to expect teachers to set an example and behave properly themselves and not to frighten a child.

ReallyTired Tue 18-Jun-13 11:53:58

The OP would be the first to complain if her son broke his neck swinging on a tree. Prehaps the child's safety is more important than his "self esteem".

In la la land teachers would never shout at children, however in la la land mothers would control their own children and teach them how to behave.

The teacher should not have shouted at the OP child but teachers are human. I admire anyone who can spend an entire day with 30 children and I can't blame them if their temper snaps. Especially if they have been working with ill manned spoilt precious first born brats who have never been told off in their lives.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 11:56:28

oh yes, teachers are such saints they can do what they like just because they teach 30 kids hmm

GiveMumABreak Tue 18-Jun-13 11:57:35

I remember at the school my kids used to attend - at pick up time (infants came out 15 min earlier than juniors) some of the kids would run riot and climb all over equipment, climb the fence, swing on trees, pull branches off the trees, play with sharp sticks and generally do ALL the things that they were not allowed to do during playtime.

But because they had already been handed over to their parents, the teachers no longer had a say in what was going on - it really was chaos and I remember feeling I needed to watch my DD like a hawk as there were unruly kids acting dangerously all over the show.

All of this happened while the parents turned a blind eye and had a good natter and catch up with each other and the teachers looked on in horror.

So perhaps this teacher was merely upholding the schools rules, perhaps the embarresment and humiliation you and your DS felt was because you should have been watching him more closely and been in control of him and his behaviour?

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 11:59:11

GiveMumABreak - the OP was talking to her other child's teacher at the time.

burberryqueen Tue 18-Jun-13 12:00:42

but in this case so was the parenting - omg so if your 6 year old swings on a tree branch you are a shit parent? ffs, grip, get a.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 12:00:46

There's nothing wrong with swinging in trees. If he was pouring engine oil on another child's head I could see a problem.

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 12:01:04

Why reported lottie? Of course I can call her on her parenting! She has put it up for discussion on a public forum.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 12:02:46

You can call a horse an elephant, but that doesn't make it one. Why was she a shit parent?

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 12:07:55

Ah. I see on page 2 that when your son soiled himself in nursery she was also his teacher? And due to (presumably) there being no boy pants available she put him in girl pants? Which you found unacceptable and as a direct or otherwise consequence she was asked to leave but is now back? Have I read that right?

Quite a history you have between you.

(incidentally, would you also have complained about her had she left him sitting in his own shit/piss all day, rather than put him in girl pants?)

MoominMammasHandbag Tue 18-Jun-13 12:08:07

Totally unacceptable to scream in a child's face and call them an idiot. If a teacher cannot exercise enough self control to discipline a child appropriately then they should not be teaching.
OP, you may well find that the school will welcome your complaint: they will need to gather a body of evidence in order to deal with her effectively.
I was taught by an absolute psycho for two years in primary school: screamed and spat at us, hit kids with cricket bats, threw chairs. When he wasn't being angry he was an interesting, cool, teacher, but we were always tip toeing around in his class. I suspect he lasted so long because he mainly hit the kids whose parents didn't give a shit about them anyway. Interestingly, when the school got a new head, a very gentle, lovely guy, he got his marching orders very quickly.

ReallyTired Tue 18-Jun-13 12:09:27

Children need to learn to respect boundaries. If its against the rules to swing on trees at school then those boundaries need to be enforced. Is the school struggling with the behaviour of the OP children? (Ie if she got called in to talk about her other child?)

Getting told off is often part of school life. The only way to avoid being told off is to home educate.

mercibucket Tue 18-Jun-13 12:11:55

schools have rules, swinging in trees off school premises is fine if the tree is sturdy enough, but if the school has a rule about it, then it shouldnt be done and if it is, then a telling off is to be expected

i am 50:50 on this, as the op sounds like she is exaggersting, but i can imagine a situation where a teacher might lose it and act inappropriately

there were lots of witnesses to this so perhaps a specific complaint about, eg, calling a child an idiot, would be more productive, with the outcome being training in how to discipline without using personal attacks.

but it would also be useful to double check that was what was really said

tbh, if you were there you should have
responded immediately in a non aggressive manner, not ignored it if it was as bad as you say
(or ideally stopped him swinging on trees at school in the first place)

GiveMumABreak Tue 18-Jun-13 12:12:22

But if OP was not watching her DS (because she was talking to the teacher) after he was released into her care after school, then who was?

I imagine (that for whatever reason) swinging on the trees is something that the children are not allowed to do at playtime and that they know this (but the excitable kids are probably dying to have a swing at first opportunity!)

Possibly this teacher had been stopping children from doing this all day! and was at the end of her tether? (maybe the overreaction and 'rant' was also for the parents benefit to remind them to keep a closer eye on their little ones while still on school property)

I'm not defending the teachers over reaction by the way, just trying to say that perhaps OP is only seeing her DS as the victim and may benefit from hearing some other opinions too?

We all go into 'lioness' mode when our children are upset because our children are all perfect

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 12:12:45

I think the pants thing is a bit of a diversion (but in this thread does that matter?!) But wouldn't the pants have been covered up by his trousers? And at that age surely there isn't much difference between girls' pants and boys'.

MoominMammasHandbag Tue 18-Jun-13 12:14:12

I would be happy to have my children told off. I would not be happy to have a teacher scream in my child's face for a sustained period and call them an "idiot". That is not a reasonable way to deal with things.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 12:15:55

The fact that a 3 yr old manages to explain the pant situation (and his subsequent humiliation as a result of it) is really rather impressive. Linguistically and emotionally.

Dd certainly wouldn't have been able to verbalise such humiliation. Actually, at 3 she wouldn't have thought anything about being changed in front of anyone or what pants someone had put her in tbh.

As I said, impressive language skills there.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 12:17:56

Is it realistic to expect boys not to swing in a tree which has branches at a convenient height? If the teachers are frustrated because they have to constantly remind the children that they're not allowed to swing in that tree then maybe someone in the school should be having a rethink. Maybe the tree needs fencing in, pruning or moving (or the rule needs to be changed.)

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 12:19:26

@thebirdsFellDown read said post again - I think you'll find I said there were plenty of boy pants available... also, it is customary in our nursery to take the child aside and change them in the toilets not in the main play room. It was so unacceptable that another teacher felt compelled to report her at that time.

also, like I said before I've never complained about any teacher... this is the very first time so there's no 'history', I'm not 'known' in the staff room. I only found about this incident because another mum helper happened to be there. I only found out she'd been reported about it months later. so please don't be so quick to judge.

MoominMammasHandbag Tue 18-Jun-13 12:20:41

Really the Birds?
When DS was in nursery they had a really vile pair of checked trousers that was put on whoever had had an accident. Us Mums referred to them as "The pants of Shame". At 3 DS was certainly old enough to get the joke (and he wore them himself a few times).

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 12:21:35

What's the major difference between boys' and girls' pants at that age?

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 12:21:44

Yes really moominmammashandbag hmm

MoominMammasHandbag Tue 18-Jun-13 12:22:04

Sorry bold fail there

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 12:22:32

Clearly the Wrong Pants lead to lifetime scarring and humiliation and teachers losing their jobs learnandsay. Teachers be warned.

MoominMammasHandbag Tue 18-Jun-13 12:23:03

Wow, touchy or what!

BeauNidle Tue 18-Jun-13 12:23:09

The world has gone mad. What on earth is wrong with swingin on a tree ffs.
Presumably with evering suing everyone else these days, the school had to ban it?
Which is ridiculous.

BeauNidle Tue 18-Jun-13 12:23:45

I also need to learn to type properly.

GiveMumABreak Tue 18-Jun-13 12:23:57

learnandsay you are right - trees in a playground are just asking to be climbed aren't they?

Maybe the aggressive teacher should be given a chainsaw and she can take her frustrations out on offending tree (joke!)

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 12:25:29

There are quite a few things in this thread that don't make that much sense.

MoominMammasHandbag Tue 18-Jun-13 12:26:08

Maybe Birds would like to do it? (Got the bold right that time)

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Tue 18-Jun-13 12:29:26

To Birds and Co - Not that I'm suggesting you're a 'posse' grin Just cannot recall all your names.

Maaaaaannnnny of my family work in school environments, whether as teachers, aids, office folk etc, etc. So I read the OP neutrally, knowing there are some truly nasty teachers out there.

However I agree with Birds And Co It sounds like your son was being naughty and you have majorly overreacted.
You won't bully an apology out of the school. IMO your son doesn't deserve an apology from what you've posted. If you weren't so hysterical to post comments such as 'verbally spat' FFS I'd be more sympathetic. Your son was cheeky and got a bollocking. Your son went way too far and got a bollocking.

If you feel your PFB was truly 'traumatised' and not playing you like a fiddle with his bad dreams, I suggest you move to a more alternative school.

Good luck.

GiveMumABreak Tue 18-Jun-13 12:32:48

I seem to have missed out of the whole 'pants' angle to this thread? am i just slow or really really tired?

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 12:33:39

page 2.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 12:33:52

Personally I don't get the pants thing at all.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Tue 18-Jun-13 12:34:02

Also we're comparing a (fictional) teacher who threw kids out windows for having lollies, threw them by their pigtails because the style annoyed her and locked children in what could be considered a dungeon because a six year old was told to stop messing about and behave?

Wow. hmm Glad I won't be sending my kids to a school with those type of parents. Fingers crossed

Some people seem to think that there is no middle ground between letting the child do whatever he wants and hurt himself and screaming in the child's face - as ways to deal with this situation.

I am willing to bet that *FrayedNerves^ would not have been upset if her child had been told to stop swinging on the branch, and then the teacher had had a quiet but stern chat with him to reprimand him.

It sounds to me as if the teacher lost her temper, and if this is the case, she needs to learn to control her temper around the children. According to the OP, she can control herself around adults, so it should not be too difficult for her.

Would anyone on this thread be happy if an adult leaned down to their child and, only inches from their face, yelled at them, calling them an idiot? Would they be happy if someone behaved like that towards them? Is there ever an excuse to behave like that towards another person, whether adult or child?

Some people seem to be saying that the OP's child DESERVED to be yelled at and abused because he misbehaved - isn't that victim blaming? If it were a man yelling at his wife because her behaviour had upset him, would we accept anyone saying, 'Well, she did X, Y or Z, so she deserved it'?

FrayedNerves - if I were you, I would be contacting the school and saying that you would like the teacher to apologise for her outburst towards your child, and that you would like the school to monitor this teacher's behaviour towards the children under her care, and to take steps to deal with her temper, if she is losing it with the children.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 12:38:51

I think Miss Trunchball only does those stupid things in the film.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 12:41:29

Well, some of them, anyway.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 12:45:25

No, you're right. That's what she's like in print too. Blimey, has it been that long?

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 12:46:02

Victim Blaming?? Fucking hell only on mumsnet!
Someone getting a bollocking for doing something wrong does not make them a victim!

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 12:47:18

SDT - exactly. There are some people who only see what they want to see.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 12:47:55

It depends on the bollocking. I'm not entitled to abuse somebody for throwing a tin can into my front garden. I can request that they remove it.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 12:49:52

SDT, I think the OP already approached the school and she was told to buzz off.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 12:50:01

'Someone getting a bollocking for doing something wrong does not make them a victim!'

Shouting in someone's face is abuse delboy. Why are you incapable of taking that on board?

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 12:51:45

Umm because it isn't abuse?

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 12:54:19

I think there are some people who simply don't understand the nature and scope of reprimand. Delboy might not understand it. A long time ago a frontbench MP had to resign because he said that the abuse soldiers undergo during training was a normal part of being in the army. I think there are people who genuinely believe that screaming at and insulting people are perfectly normal (and acceptable) things to do.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 12:55:06

Yes it is! Dear me, you think it's ok to shout in someone's face? Well then we are never going to agree.

Can I just ask whether you would accept that treatment yourself from another adult?

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 12:56:52

Imagine if an Mner came on here and said her dh shouted in her face. Can you imagine anyone saying 'Oh well it's character building'.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 12:58:04

Such people do exist in large numbers, I'm afraid.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Tue 18-Jun-13 12:58:30

I totally agree SDT

It's just difficult IMHO to believe the the teacher verbally spat hmm in his face, especially after the drip feeding of having been changed in front of all the other the students.

Yes, there's a middle ground. My DC are soon to start start school (2-4 years depending on which DC) And I don't believe the OP is 'seeing' the teacher's side at all.

But I could be wrong obviously, she could be a complete bully. Lord knows I had mine in Primary. I just feel there are either holes the signs of planes in OP's story (eg: SAME teacher just HAPPENS to clean him, wipe him and CHANGE him in front of entire class --pants irrelevant, that's a ridiculous exaggeration and lie--)

OR he's The One Who Can Do No Wrong.

I truly believe/have experienced a teacher's nastiness. This is, IMHO; a joined tantrum between mum and son.

So like I said, move him to a school with more lax rules on discipline or don't be horrified if he's told off for being cheeky. No, I don't believe she 'verbally spat' in his face he was an idiot. No, you won't get an apology.

I can't be arsed giving an actual opinion (other than the pants situation... FFS! What parents would THEN send their kid to the same school? And if they did... They'd be looking for a reason to blow their top.)

If this teacher is as cruel as you say, and you are dismissed by the HT, move schools. For your DS's sake.

MaryKatharine Tue 18-Jun-13 12:59:09

Delboy is talking nonsense on lots of levels.
Firstly, no parent is totally watching every second of all their children's behaviour especially when talking to another adult about something important. She assumed (quite rightly) that as he was in the playground he was safe from harm.
Secondly, calling a child stupid or an idiot is totally unacceptable regardless of whether its done in front of others.

When I was a deputy head I would have taken this very seriously and kept a monitor on said teacher. Chances are, the HT and DHT already know she has an issue with her temper. In one school, I was teaching Y6 at the other end of the school from the Y1s yet I could hear their teachers literally hollering constantly all day.

Oh and also on the subject of 'expecting' someone else to look after her DS, teachers hang around and generally keep an eye on kids at home time until they leave the premises with their parents. I have three at school, one right around the other side of two buildings. They all finish at the same time and I know my eldest's teacher will still be there keeping an eye out for him and others until I have collected his sisters and walked around. I never saw my job as finishing when the bell went.

OP, I would go in and see the HT. be calm and reasoned and just explain that you see it as unacceptable.

TheFallenNinja Tue 18-Jun-13 12:59:56

I wonder how the teacher would describe this incident?

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 13:01:33

She probably wouldn't. I'm sure she's been cross with children lots of times.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 13:01:59

if it happened exactly as the OP describes it, if those exact words and actions were used, then the teacher's behaviour is unacceptable. I don't think anyone would deny that.

To call it abuse though is to belittle and undermine the real abuse that some children receive at the hands of their carers.

As I said upthread, dd was slapped by her nursery teacher. She wasn't abused by her. Or bullied. Or humiliated. The teacher denied it. I went to the head and the head supported the teacher. It never happened again though.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 13:02:16

I don't find the OP at all unbelievable. At my (private) school there was a male teacher who threw hard objects at us regularly. He was eventually ousted by the governors but it took some time.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Tue 18-Jun-13 13:02:33

angry Comparing DV to teachers? Hoe fucking DARE YOU?!?

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Tue 18-Jun-13 13:02:43

How

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 13:03:39

I disagree, thebirds, abuse comes in many forms. Repeatedly calling someone an idiot and telling them they have no brain is mental abuse.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 13:04:17

Slapping is abuse. Shouting in someone's face is abuse.

'To call it abuse though is to belittle and undermine the real abuse that some children receive at the hands of their carers.'

You are the one belittling abuse here. If a man slaps a woman is that not abuse then TheBirds?

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 13:04:43

"no parent is totally watching every second of all their children's behaviour especially when talking to another adult about something important"

wtaf? Seriously?

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Tue 18-Jun-13 13:05:23

Did she say he acted 'idiotic' or he was an 'idiot' though? OP is hardly reliable with her BS dramatics.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 13:05:39

learnandsay, yes I agree. Of course it is. My daughter was not abused. Neither was the OP's.

cheeseandpineapple Tue 18-Jun-13 13:06:56

OP, I think you need to turn this around and ask the school what they're going to do about your complaint.

You've made the complaint. What are their next steps if they don't believe an apology is in order.

Also, is there a rewards and sanctions policy? Would ask for a copy of that and see if it's being enforced.

Completely unprofessional, unjustifiable and inexcusable for a teacher to scream at a child and name call.

Your son may not get an apology and it's moot as to whether that's appropriate or not but at least you might be able to prevent this teacher from continuing her unprofessional conduct.

I suspect you were shocked by what you witnessed and couldn't react constructively at the time plus you wanted to deal with your child without making a further scene. You've done the right thing to make a complaint, calmly after the event but ensure they follow through with their internal process for complaints and find out what they propose doing about the issue. They need to tell you, not vice versa.

Delboysfilofax - would you scream at someone, with your face only inches away from theirs, calling them idiot over and over again? Would you be happy if someone did that to you?

I used the term victim blaming, because what people like you seem to be saying is that the child deserved to be screamed at and humiliated in public because of his behaviour. To reference a current news item, did Nigella deserve to be throttled in public by Charles Saatchi because they were arguing? She might have said something that upset him or made him cross but in a civilised society, that does NOT make it right for him to treat her abusively - and exactly the same applies in this situation.

Yes, the OP's child should not have been swinging on the tree, but the teacher did not deal with it appropriately or reasonably. Abusing someone is NEVER a reasonable reaction to bad behaviour/disagreement/arguement/whatever.

MaryKatharine Tue 18-Jun-13 13:07:47

I wish I could say it was unbelievable but I've seen this sort of behaviour with my own eyes. Some teachers cannot hold their temper. That really is a fact. They are the ones who often hate their job and fantasise about leaving or retiring. Well I'd love to help that fantasy come true because many of them need to get out.

I also got out myself actually! grin though that was due to the fact that 4 kids and the amount of w/e and evening work required wasn't a happy marriage. I carried on working as a TA though as I loved teaching.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 13:08:24

Well, yes. I'm not sure what actually went on either. But she did say he was repeatedly called an idiot and told that he'd left his brain at home. It's upthread somewhere.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 13:10:35

learnandsay - why do you think slapping is not abuse?

How do you define abuse?

There seems to be a prevailing attitude that there are things that are ok to do to a child, which obviously wouldn't be ok for one adult to do to another. I don't think that makes any sense.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 13:11:30

I don't think that.

TheFallenNinja Tue 18-Jun-13 13:11:45

I believe the distance from the child given by the OP was 2'

Hardly, in your face.

MaryKatharine Tue 18-Jun-13 13:12:21

Yes, TheBirds, of course I was serious! Have you never been talking to your child's teacher and your toddler is behind you and falls over because he's stood on a rock? (Example of my own from yesterday)
You generally know where they are but you don't have your eyes on them every second. Or do you generally have a conversation with a teacher without looking at them at all?

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 13:13:26

Sorry learnand say - I meant to address that to TheBirds.

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 13:13:45

There is no way this teacher shouted in the child's face in the playground as the OP described. No way. Other parents would have complained as well. It was so bad the kid had nightmares, and she couldn't sleep herself? Not over egging it at all there

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 13:16:12

Really? it's now being compared to the Nigella incident? How in the name of Zeus' cock is it the same as an assault? Seriously.

ProphetOfDoom Tue 18-Jun-13 13:16:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sonlypuppyfat Tue 18-Jun-13 13:17:02

One of my friends trained to be a school teacher I asked her when she was doing her sarcasm course as I found most teachers liked to humiliate, this was when I was at school and just the same for my DC's.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 13:18:00

delboys - you weren't there. How could you possibly know what happened?

Or do you think teachers are beyond reproach? MaryKatharine, who was a teacher herself has just said that she has seen teachers behave like this. I have too and I have heard a number of personal things said in the staff room about children that should not have been said.

daftdame Tue 18-Jun-13 13:18:25

I have not read all of the thread but I do believe some teacher's ideas about discipline are ...ahem... questionable.

Not that it is a bad as the old days, but then as a culture we don't condole corporal punishment any more...(see thread below).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_classics/1309534-Weird-things-your-teachers-did-which-they-would-be-fired-for-today

I think some teachers do genuinely think the 'shouty' approach works, it may to some degree, probably this approach,

"The day will come when you need them to respect you even fear you a little" (Ibid.p600)

But then would you rather rule through love or fear?

Annanon Tue 18-Jun-13 13:18:29

Op I can see the point you were trying to make. It was not that he was told off that upset you, but how it was done.

It is a completely normal parental instinct to be upset when you witness someone shouting at your child. Any adult, especially a teacher, literally shouting in a child's face, and calling them 'stupid' an 'idiot' or any other form of name calling is completely unacceptable.

You have not failed him in any way. You removed him from the situation at the time. You did the sensible thing by not reacting in an overly emotional way. Walking away from confrontations when your children are with you, is the best approach. I admire you for holding your composure.

From how you describe the incident, the teacher displayed to everyone that she cannot control her temper or articulate herself in an appropriate manor. Screaming in the face of a young child is intimidating, unprofessional and immature. An adult calling a young child 'stupid' or an 'idiot' is never justifiable. Your son may well have needed to be told off for climbing on the tree, but she handled it poorly and resorting to name calling is ridiculous, bullying, behaviour.

I think it is completely reasonable to complain in writing to the HT to let them know that you found this teacher's behaviour intimidating and unacceptable and to request a follow-up meeting to discuss your complaint. You need to find out if there were witnesses and ask them to complain as well. This teacher lost her temper/self control in front of all the children and was setting a terrible example of how to behave in school / deal with disagreements. It's tricky, as I doubt you can expect an apology, directly to your son, but I don't see how any school could justify calling a child stupid or an idiot, within any discipline policy. The outcome of the complaint that I would be looking for would be a meeting with the HT & teacher in question to discuss what forms of discipline I could expect while my child was a pupil at the school. I would also want some reassurance that the school does not accept teachers calling pupils names, even if they weren't willing to admit that it actually happened on this occasion.

I would let your DS know that he mustn't climb the tree again and that if he misbehaves at school he will be told off, with your permission. I would praise him for discussing how it made him feel, with you. I would also reassure him that he shouldn't feel embarrassed or scared, because everyone gets told off or shouted at, at some point. Ask him to think of times when his friends have been told off before, but they were fine afterwards. However, I would also let him know that, while the teacher was right to tell him off, she was wrong to call him names, and that you have told the HT.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 13:18:45

OK. I am not an abuse apologist. Namecheck me on any search under any of my 3 MN names (Bucharest/NotTreadingGrapes and this one) and you will see that I probably spend more time on Relationships saying LTB than anywhere else.

I have been thinking about this and am prepared to accept that my definition of abuse is wrong. Because maybe I see it as a sustained long term treatment of an individual rather than as a one off.

I still find it hard to believe the OP's version of events. The hysterical hyperbole reads like bad creative writing. And the history between this child and the teacher just makes me hmm

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 13:19:27

lottieandmia, you weren't there either, were you?

daftdame Tue 18-Jun-13 13:20:10

^ sorry realise there was no corporal punishment involved, just my attempts at analogy.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 13:20:52

'Really? it's now being compared to the Nigella incident? How in the name of Zeus' cock is it the same as an assault? Seriously.'

I refer to my earlier post. Abuse is abuse - whether it involves adults or children. You also haven't answered my question about whether you yourself would accept this treatment from another adult?

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 13:21:55

I was not there but I choose to believe the OP instead of posting to call her a liar.

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 13:29:40

No abuse is not abuse. Shouting at someone is not the same as throttling them.

As for someone shouting in my face? Used to happen all the time at work. Never bothered me in the slightest.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Tue 18-Jun-13 13:29:44

I don't think OP is a liar, I think she saw her DS being scolded (yes, maybe even gasp shouted at)

I think OP feels her son was just, well, boys will be boys -Saw the expression on here, didn't being it up myself- And extremely overreacted when her 'spirited' little boy was told gasp enough is enough, time to stop putting yourself in dangerous situations.

I admire the OP's love for her son I(of course!!!) But she'll do him much better than teaching him 'boys CAN be boys' in this day and age.

Lottieandmia - I would like Delboysfilofax to answer that too. I'd also like to know if they consider screaming in someone's face to be appropriate discipline.

Delboysfilofax - I believe that verbal abuse is as unacceptable as physical abuse - do you not agree?

And I made the comparison with Nigella's situation, because you seemed to be saying that this boy deserved to be verbally abused by the teacher - do you think Nigella deserved to have Charles Saatchi's hands round her throat? One was verbal abuse, the other physical - but both do damage.

Also, if you don't believe the OP's description of events, I don't see how you can join the discussion - other than to call her a liar, which you have already (by implication) done. We are all discussing the situation based on the details we have been given - it goes without saying that, if the situation was radically different to that described, our responses would be different.

To answer your specific question - the OP has said she was too shocked to respond to this teacher at the time - maybe the other parents present were also too shocked to intervene?

SpecialAgent - shouting at someone only 2 inches from their face, when you are an adult and they are a small child, and calling them an idiot - which is what the OP has related - how is that acceptable in any situation? How is it a proportionate response to the child's behaviour?

Is that how YOU would have dealt with that child in that situation? Or with your own child in a similar situation? Do you shout in your child's face from a distance of only 2", and call them an idiot?

ReallyTired Tue 18-Jun-13 13:35:11

You can watch the video where they use death to promote breastfeeding in India and realise it has been taken out of contex. Very poor indian mothers HAVE to breastfeed and if it doesn't work then their baby starves to death. (Formula is not an option)

www.breastcrawl.org/

Persauding hospitals to train their staff is different to propaganising western mothers.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 13:35:13

No abuse is not abuse

heh?

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 13:35:43

Op says 2 foot from his face not 2 inches.

treaclesoda Tue 18-Jun-13 13:36:22

I think I understand what the OP is saying too, that its not the telling off, its the nature of the telling off. I've been trying to put myself in the OP's shoes and the bottom line is that despite knowing sometimes that my DC need to be reprimanded, it really does sting if someone else gets in there first and does it before I can do it, and I immediately find myself thinking 'its not that bad, he/she didn't need snapped at like that'. But really, ultimately I'm to blame, because when I am present, I should be keeping them under close enough supervision that I am the first to notice if they step out of line. So its probably guilt that makes me feel like that. I think its the nature of motherhood. Its tricky.

I have no idea what happened at the school gates in this case obviously, and if the teacher was indeed so aggressive then I can see why the OP was upset. On the other hand, if the OP feels annoyed that the teacher spotted the misbehaving and tackled it, when she should have seen and tackled it herself, its easy to see why she might misinterpret the scolding as being bullying, and 'in his face'. So maybe the reality lies somewhere in between the two interpretations?

As an aside, I remember teachers like this from school, and remember thinking how wonderful it would be to be a grown up and not have someone scream in my face when I did the tiniest thing wrong. Little did I know that the world of work involves more screaming at and being publicly humiliated than I ever faced in fourteen years of school. Maybe it would have toughened me up to be screamed at a bit more at school, then it wouldn't have shocked me so much to discover that its a pretty common management style in the workplace confused

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Tue 18-Jun-13 13:37:15

What about other employees?

Was everyone so stunned at the verbal abuse directed towards OP's son no one acted? And also, no one stood up and said he was genuinely over-punished? confused

If everyone was so stunned not to spur into action or leap to the child's defence.... Maybe, just maybe there is a middle ground both sides don't see?

Surely, if a teacher ^verbally SPAT into a child's face*... Someone would come forward?

Delboysfilofax - verbal abuse from my school days - not even shouted abuse - caused me to be suicidal at age 14 and has left me with life-long, life-blighting depression.

And maybe you coped just fine with being shouted at, at work - but you weren't being shouted at by someone probably twice your height and weight, I assume. Regardless of how well you coped, it was not appropriate professional behaviour for you to be shouted at - I don't know if it happened in public or in private, but neither is acceptable.

I presume you would be equally unsympathetic if a colleague were shouted at, as you were, and it affected them badly?

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 13:40:29

I'm afraid so STD. I really don't see verbal abuse as anywhere near as bad as physical.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 13:43:12

'As for someone shouting in my face? Used to happen all the time at work. Never bothered me in the slightest.'

If it happened to you all the time then I would suggest that maybe you've become desensitised to it so you now think it is acceptable when it is not.

Abuse is not just about overt physical violence.

If verbal abuse is so (relatively) benign, Delboysfilofax, why was I contemplating suicide at age 14? My bullies hadn't laid a finger on me - it was all verbal and exclusion.

People are driven to suicide by verbal abuse. They have to leave jobs they love because of verbal abuse from a colleague or manager. They develop long term depression as a result of purely verbal abuse.

Please consider that, and ask yourself whether, if a colleague was that distressed by verbal abuse, you would add to their distress by minimising and dismissing the very real pain they were suffering. I genuinely hope that you will rethink this, and will learn that shouting/screaming abuse in someone's face is unacceptable and damaging, and that if you do not support someone who is being mistreated in that way, you are almost as bad as the person dishing out the abuse.

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 13:51:30

Bullying is different though. This was a one off event so I think it's very different. I'm sorry you had to put up with that when you were young, but I would find it very difficult to feel sorry for an adult colleague who felt in that way about abuse

Annanon Tue 18-Jun-13 13:56:09

What about if the OP had posted:

Teachers - Is it ever acceptable for a member of staff to shout in the face a 6 year old child, who is really misbehaving, and call them 'stupid'?

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 13:58:59

delboy - it doesn't matter whether it's a one off or sustained. This teacher is a professional and should set an example when she is at work. No child should be afraid of any teacher. That is a different thing from respecting a teacher's authority.

I suspect a simple 'Hey, so and so -come off the tree at once' would have done the job fine. This was not the case. It is completely unacceptable for a teacher to lose it in this way.

Bullying is just as damaging for an adult, though, delboysfilofax. I have a friend who developed depression and had to leave her job, because of bullying at work by a manager - would you not be sympathetic to her?

Also, this isn't the first time this teacher has humiliated this child - she made him wear girls' underwear, and changed him in front of the class when he had an accident at nursery, aged only 3 - so it was not a one-off event.

Would you treat a child like this teacher reportedly treated this child? Would you be happy if your child was treated like that? Really??

Annanon Tue 18-Jun-13 14:05:44

I would feel very sorry for an adult colleague who thought it was acceptable for a manager to shout in their face for a prolonged time and call them 'stupid' or an 'idiot'. Even a donkey would recognise a stick and prefer a carrot.

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 14:07:40

at 3 years old I don't think being in girls pants matters. my boy was send home in girls tights because he soiled himself, didn't bother me in the slightest. It's all about intent there I suppose. How did OP know there was boys pants available and she did it deliberately?

It mattered because other children teased the OP's ds at the time, delboy.

Delboysfilofax - would you treat a child like this teacher reportedly treated this child in the incident reported in the OP? Would you be happy if your child was treated like that? Really??

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 14:18:41

Honestly if a teacher had shouted at my child after he had already been warned in an earlier assembly about it then yes I wouldn't have been bothered, because if I had been doing MY job as a parent then he wouldn't have been on the tree in the first place!! I would see it as a bollocking for myself as well as my child

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 14:21:39

So children who forget their homework deserve to get shouted at in such a fashion too?

How was the OP supposed to be in two places at once? She was talking to another teacher about her ds2's nosebleed.

You would be happy with a teacher repeatedly shouting at your child that they were an idiot?

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 14:22:46

For the teacher to have been suspended before she must have had various complaints. Teachers are actually quite hard to get rid of.

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 14:26:27

She wasn't supposed to be in two placed at once. She was supposed to have enough control/discipline over her child that he wasn't running around doing shit he wasn't supposed to when she was not watching. Secondly you can have a conversation and watch your child. Just have to be face them.

Annanon Tue 18-Jun-13 14:32:37

Delboysfileofax - are you actually suggesting you would be fine with an adult telling your Dc they stupid, or an idiot? Can you honestly not see that this could be harmful in any way?

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 14:38:25

Maybe delboys child is an idiot.

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 14:38:39

Delboy... They werent specific about climbing on trees, After speaking to HM I was informed that they spoke generally about safety... They, the whole school. Guess a 6yo isnt always able to make the right decisions when faced with freedom from the classroom for a whole day. He is not a troublemaker, he is not feril as you seem to believe, nor am I slack with my kids... A 3' branch that he was hanging on underneath by his arms with no other child in swinging or kicking vicinity is not IMO a safety risk. Granted he shouldn't have done that obviously. You seem to have this idea that I was chatting and having a great time whilst allowing others to babysit my kids... I was facing him but about 15' away talking to ds2 teacher, I was still able to see him and all the other kids. The split second it took for me to start a conv instigated by ds2s teacher was all the time it took, seconds. As soon as I heard my child's name and shouting I obviously looked up and the rest you know... I find it upsetting that you think I'm lying, why would I subject myself to hurtful and upsetting comments if this were not a real situation? Have people calling me a 'shit parent' etc has not been easy to take. Neither have your comments.

adoptmama Tue 18-Jun-13 14:41:08

I find it very hard to believe that this went down as described. You don't see what you child is doing because you are busy elsewhere but are, never-the-less, able to hear and see if amazing detail everything that was apparently screamed at your child.

And despite the appalling abuse you suggest your child was subjected to - in front of many adults and children - you did nothing.

Firstly, if something had happened in the way described, it would be the talk of the staffroom and playground. All parents would be discussing it. Many would be concerned. If things happened as described, you would be able to find plenty of witnesses to support you in complaining to the school board or local education authority.

However much of your story rings false. I do not believe for a minute your child was 'humiliated' by being given girls pants at age 3 in nursery by the same teacher. As many others have said there is no difference except in colour. You are projecting your own feelings onto your child. You seem to have a vendetta against this teacher. She would not have been asked to leave the school because she was so awful, and then invited back as you delight in suggesting. If a teacher leaves a school due to complaints it is because disciplinary action has been taken and she was formally removed from the school. She would not then be allowed back. If she left it was probably due to being surplus, off on the sick or on a secondment. If you truly believe a teacher 'delights' in bullying small children, as you state, then you are failing as a human being not to take your complaint beyond the school. But I sincerely doubt that is what happened.

Your child had been warned in assembly to stay off the trees yet disobeyed. I'd have bloody told him off too - and at the end of a wet day no less. In fact I gave someone a bollocking the other day in the playground for doing exactly what they had been told before not to do because there was a risk the child would get hurt. And he did get hurt because he came back and did it a second time. Despite the fact his mother was 10m away. Can't say I was very impressed with her parenting. Oddly enough my 6 year old knows if I am talking to a teacher she is still expected to behave and follow the rules. Your child should be able to do the same. That is not an unreasonable expectation at his age.

I doubt she called him an idiot - more likely she said his behaviour was idiotic. Asking him if he'd left his brain at home - more like a joke to me.

If your child was treated in the way you describe then you should move school. But tbh I doubt it did and you sound like exactly the kind of nightmare parent all teachers dread: not content with complaining if your child is reprimanded you exaggerate events to suit yourself.

IMO. Of course.

iwantanafternoonnap Tue 18-Jun-13 14:45:02

frayednerves ignore all those stupid comments about being a shit parent. Kids will be kids and will swing from things. Clearly delboy instils such fear in her children they never leave her side!!!

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 14:47:20

Adoptamama.... Please don't call me a liar, she called him an idiot and stupid. Not idiotic.

FadedSapphire Tue 18-Jun-13 14:48:33

Write your letter to Head and copy to governors about inappropriate screaming and language and teacher's loss of control in herself/ unprofessionalism Frayed.
I think the op has made it quite clear that she understands her child should have been told off. It is the screeching, idiot/ stupid remarks that are not on. I am amazed that anybody does think such language from a teacher to a child is appropriate. Yes teacher is 'human' and may have just lost it but then she needs support with anger management from the school.
Accusing Frayednerves of lying is just unpleasant.

Elibean Tue 18-Jun-13 14:49:38

I'm amazed at how many people think shouting in a 6 year old's face is just a 'telling off'.

The teacher was OTT, and it wasn't ok. No one who habitually disciplines in that way (intimidating) would be employed at our school, but if someone shouted in a child's face as a one-off because they'd just been pushed to the extreme (climbing a tree in playground would not qualify, unless actually dangerous) either in frustration or panic - they would be listened to, but so would the upset parent and, more importantly, the child

Anyone who has attended Safeguarding trainings should know better than to shout 2" away from a child's face like that.

Losing it is one thing, using it (as means of control) is another. At the very best it is poor behaviour management.

OP, I would definitely try and stay calm before talking to the Head or (if the Head doesn't listen) the Governors about this teacher, if there are a lot of complaints of similar nature. List your concerns, and present them calmly in the spirit of wanting to sort things out, if you can.

Most importantly, I would let my child know that, no matter how out of order he/she is, it is not ok for adults to shout in your face that way and that I feel cross with them for doing it. He made a mistake, and it was ok for the teacher to tell him off, but the shouting in his face was not ok. Adults make mistakes, and that was one.

Maybe FrayedNerves can report the conversation so accurately, despite being 'busy elsewhere' because the teacher was screaming so loudly, adoptmama?

And the 'humiliation' involved in the girls' pants incident came from a) being changed in public, and b) the fact that other children teased the OP's child for having girls' pants on - unless you are calling the OP a liar disbelieving that part of her story too, adoptmama.

Annanon Tue 18-Jun-13 14:52:42

FrayedNerves - Nothing from your posts suggests you weren't doing your job as a parent. Your concerns and response seem completely appropriate to me. I cannot understand the irrational negativity towards you, from a few posters on here. Hopefully, in the next few hours, after the school day, you will get some more considered, constructive responses, from actual teachers.

Icantstopeatinglol Tue 18-Jun-13 14:54:52

Omg! Well I haven't read all the posts as I'm a bit shocked at alot of people's opinions! Take away the fact that this woman is a teacher and would anyone allow another adult to shout at a 6yr old and call them an idiot!?? I certainly wouldn't! I'm not sure I'd have been able to bite my tongue!
Op I think you're well within your right to be upset and angry! I think I'd be requesting the school reassure me this will never happen again and if said teachers are so highly strung they can loose their temper at the very children they are supposed to be teaching then maybe they need to rethink their position.
Disgraceful behaviour and what does that teach the kids??

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Tue 18-Jun-13 14:55:45

I'm an actual teacher.

HTH.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 14:55:48

adoptmama - if you think that 'most of the thread rings false' then why waste your time commenting? If you don't believe an OP you report it to MNHQ.

Though I'm having trouble understanding why people don't believe the OP.

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 14:57:17

There is a former teacher upthread who says she has seen teachers behave this way.

Sparklysilversequins Tue 18-Jun-13 14:59:09

My dd's teacher is quite shouty. BUT she is a good teacher and dd loves her. However I have noticed regularly that when the parents turn up she moderates her voice accordingly. I have seen her being "firm" with dd then noticing me and softening her voice.

Fwiw I have had some awful teachers, the one that picked on me mercilessly for an entire two terms, I was 9 and she was middle aged, the one who used to only teach the boys, if she taught at all, as most of the lesson was spent giggling with them. There was also the male teacher who perceived who was weakest and disliked in his class then picked on them to gain respect amongst the stronger characters bullies he was scared of.

I must admit this "if an adult/teacher tells them off they must have deserved it or it's YOUR fault" attitude on MN really pisses me off. If I am in a good mood it makes me think that the poster saying it must have had a sheltered life never to have experienced a nasty bullying adult picking on a child, other times I wonder if the person spouting this view is actually a bit of a nasty arsehole and do similar themselves.

wickeddevil Tue 18-Jun-13 15:00:43

Frayed. Really sorry you have been given a hard time. I don't believe you deserved it.
I don't believe that the Teacher's reaction to your DS' behaviour was appropriate. Nor are you a bad mother for not having eyes in the back of your head.
From your OP I would say the teacher was correct to tell DS off, but in a way that was proportionate to his behaviour and age. She lost it and it is her behaviour that needs managing.
I would revisit with the head teacher or chair of governors. What i would want in your situation would be for the school to handle the teachers behaviour, and some reassurance that there would not be a repeat without very serious consequences for the teacher. I wouldn't be too bothered about an apology tbh though, and I doubt your DS would want one.
Good Luck

teachers should not be screaming in childrens faces

if she doesn't apolagise up the complaint to the next relevant level

Elibean Tue 18-Jun-13 15:04:45

I tend to agree with wickedevil, though.

I'm not sure an apology is all that relevent - an assurance that it won't happen again would be far more valuable, IMO.

Delboysfilofax - going back to what you said about being shouted at at work, and it not damaging you, and that you wouldn't be sympathetic to a colleague who was upset by similar treatment, I have to ask you this:

Do you think it is acceptable to verbally abuse a colleague or junior in the workplace? Is it a valid and efficacious form of managerial/professional communication?*

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 15:07:21

Maybe my child is an idiot, but you know what until he's 18. I am responsible for his actions. I won't be kicking off because another adult who is responsible for his care tells him off when he's mucking about

delboysfileofax Tue 18-Jun-13 15:12:01

SDT. Depends really, we clearly have very different opinions on what constitutes abuse, but no I personally wouldn't verbally abuse a more junior staff member

GibberTheMonkey Tue 18-Jun-13 15:12:06

There's telling off and then there is what this teacher did.

TheFallenNinja Tue 18-Jun-13 15:21:30

What this teacher allegedly did. There is only half a story here.

tobiasfunke Tue 18-Jun-13 15:23:54

I read the Op to my mother was was a P1 teacher for 40 years- and she was the scary one that took no nonsense. She says there is no way that a teacher should've shouted at a kid like that - unless it was dangerous and he had been told off numerous times and continued to do it. She said she shouldn't have called him an idiot or stupid and that doing it in front of the parent was unforgiveable. She would've pointed the kid swinging to the parent and asked them to stop him or just told him to get down. She said it sounded like the teacher was showing off in front of the parents.

However asking the HM to get her to apologise is not likely to get you anywhere. Instead you should ask the HM to get the teacher to explain why she thought her course of action was reasonable and whether they approved of the language she used. Being over dramatic about his confidence etc (whether is is true or not) is not going to help you here as they will label you a loon. It's like letters of complaint- the more over the top they are the more it undermines your position.

CounselorTroi Tue 18-Jun-13 17:21:29

Being over dramatic about his confidence etc (whether is is true or not) is not going to help you here as they will label you a loon

this.

mrz Tue 18-Jun-13 17:23:13

why on earth can't kids swing on trees now? because parents sue when they fall off and scrape their knees battlestarB

usualsuspect Tue 18-Jun-13 17:29:22

I'm sure I've read this thread before.

Anyhow, teacher sounds like she lost it.

He was only swinging on a tree, no biggie. A simple 'get off that tree' would have done.

usualsuspect Tue 18-Jun-13 17:31:30

Delboy is clearly one of those smug supermum types.

Floggingmolly Tue 18-Jun-13 17:34:42

Op, in your post at 10.41 you say you didn't address the issue at the time because you would have undermined her authority????? Surely based on that there is no issue to address?
I'm also confused at how, if the teacher was sacked for her behaviour in nursery, she's suddenly back again?
Schools tend not to reemploy staff who've been dismissed for inappropriate behaviour.

exoticfruits Tue 18-Jun-13 17:38:04

I don't think that a playground tree can withstand a potential 100+ children a day swinging on it. In my supply teaching, at many schools, the rule has always been that you don't swing on the trees- you care for the environment.

usualsuspect Tue 18-Jun-13 17:41:15

Obviously you don't swing on trees, you don't rant at a 6 year old for doing it either.

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 17:41:21

Just thought I'd let you know... Following on from all these accusations of me being over dramatic etc over this. Upon picking up my children this afternoon I was asked for a quick chat with HM. I was informed that several other mums who witnessed my sons humiliation have also put in formal complaints after what they witnessed. These are completely independent complaints and I have nothing to do with how they feel, I have only just found out today... Also, whilst writing I'd just like to say that the teacher I was talking to at the time (about ds2s nosebleed) has ALSO placed a complaint!
This disgraceful excuse of a teacher is now being pulled in for her actions where she can explain her 'side' of the story... Although with so many other accusations I feel her side won't hold up to much.
So Dellboy and everyone else who was so quick to judge me on my parenting, morals and viability.... I came on here for advice as what I should do and I'm shocked there are people like you in this world who can justify treatment of a child like this. Thanks to everyone else for the positivity.

usualsuspect Tue 18-Jun-13 17:42:20

Although I spent a lot of my childhood swinging on trees TBH.

MoominMammasHandbag Tue 18-Jun-13 17:45:23

Sad thing is, lots of the doubters and justifiers on this thread seem to be teachers.

FadedSapphire Tue 18-Jun-13 17:45:45

Sounds like things are well in hand FrayedNerves.
Hope you are feeling less frayed now! smile.

usualsuspect Tue 18-Jun-13 17:47:24

I hope it all gets resolved,The questioning of your parenting by some on this thread is out of order imo.

But that's MN for you.

learnandsay Tue 18-Jun-13 17:48:24

I think I only saw one person saying that she was a teacher upthread and she was being pretty reasonable. I don't think most of the nasty, and some of the way off beam comments just came from normal posters looking to wind up the OP and have a bit of fun.

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 17:53:43

@Learnandsay.. and show themselves up as being complete bastards!

mrz Tue 18-Jun-13 17:54:23

Presumably you have lots of witnesses to what she said in which case I hope she spoken to her union because she is going to need one.

That is good news, FrayedNerves - and I hope that those who accused you of lying or exaggerating (yes, delboysfilofax, I am looking at you, amongst others), will apologise for doubting you.

I hope the school sort this out swiftly and that you are happy with the outcome.

usualsuspect Tue 18-Jun-13 17:56:36

Then maybe the posters winding up the OP for the hell of it need to wind their necks in.

exoticfruits Tue 18-Jun-13 17:58:07

I still think you should pick your battles- this isn't one I would take on. I can't see it is more than your word against hers.

exoticfruits Tue 18-Jun-13 17:58:47

It is nothing to do with rights and wrongs- just being realistic.

bruffin Tue 18-Jun-13 18:01:15
usualsuspect Tue 18-Jun-13 18:04:40

I knew I had read a similar thread to this before.

In fact I thought this was a zombie thread at first.

Exoticfruits - how can it be the Op's word against the teacher's (assuming that is what you mean) when other parents and another teacher have also made complaints about the incident?

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 18:09:30

@bruffin that's not me... Nor have I read that thread. Eerily similar tho. But all I can say is that that mum was treated better, by other mnetters I mean.

usualsuspect Tue 18-Jun-13 18:18:39

She wasn't grin

exoticfruits Tue 18-Jun-13 18:21:32

Well you can risk it, SDT- I wouldn't- it seems clear to me the teacher won't simply apologise- it will be a fight. All I am saying is that I wouldn't take it on- if I was that unhappy I would change schools.

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 18:24:29

I just read the first page... All seemed well. Oh well maybe I should have searched for a similar subject before posting lol. Lesson learnt... Saying goodbye to my first and LAST thread. Thanks guysflowers

FadedSapphire Tue 18-Jun-13 18:25:57

Hey- why your last thread Frayed?
Be brave and come back another day!

Even if the OP were to move her child, the fact that others who witnessed the incident have complained to the HT (including another teacher from the school) means that the teacher will have some serious explaining to do.

It can't be right to let teachers like this get away with screaming at children, calling them stupid and idiot, can it?

Mrsrobertduvall Tue 18-Jun-13 18:30:32

I do think that whatever the rights and wrongs, op should get things into perspective ...crying, not sleeping and feeling guilty will not help and your son may pick up on it.

usualsuspect Tue 18-Jun-13 18:34:35

Come on Frayed, live to post another day.

You did get some supportive posts on this thread.brew

Catmint Tue 18-Jun-13 18:45:32

I just wanted to add that the word idiot is not allowed at dd's school. To the extent that she thinks it is a swear word. smile

I'm glad others at school backed you up, OP.

FadedSapphire Tue 18-Jun-13 18:58:01

Yup- for years idiot and stupid were beyond the pale words for my ds....

Elibean Tue 18-Jun-13 19:02:02

Frayed, I was shocked by the way you were treated on this tread too. You are not alone.

But MN can be very supportive. I hope you post again.

And I am so glad that other parents in RL reacted the same way as many of us here, and said so. I hope your ds regains confidence fast (I imagine he will, knowing his parent and others felt as shaky as he did at the teacher's manner).

FrayedNerves Tue 18-Jun-13 19:04:30

Not a chance usualsuspect, I'll stick to lurking from not on lol

justanuthermanicmumsday Tue 18-Jun-13 19:24:29

I would remove him. I had a similar problem. My son was in a great school but then we moved house and husband said it would be easier to change schools closer,to the new rental. I had a gut feeling this new school,would be no good.

On week 2 of joining,, i heard the nursery teacher screaming at the top of her lungs at a 4 yr old boy, he didnt want to attend school for the next week. We parents we all there waiting to get our kids we were gob smacked. I never shout at my kids like that, not unless the house was on fire. is this the way to discipline or instill fear in small kids? I'd be upset if my 4 year old was spoken to like that if you speak like an animals expect the behaviour to be returned. You can discipline without screaming like a hyena.

same school i heard other primary 1 kids getting shouted at very loudly, and I was sat outside the room waiting for my son,,first week in a new school. This doesn't give me a good impression.

Then second week my son is really upset, says he wants to go back to his old school because he was taken to the office for play fighting. he said He always play fighted in his last school and because the kids were happy and not hurt, the teachers were fine with the rough and tumble. But in this school his play fighting was mistaken for bad behaviour. So he didnt get a light reprimanding,he got marched to the office. The headmistress shouted at him, he said louder than dad ever does lol. I thought nothing of it,thought maybe he was naughty, or it was a one off misunderstanding, until i heard other parents criticising the headmistress on her discipline methods, ie shouting at top of lungs. It seems like the other teachers in the school follow suit, down to nursery level.

I know my sons boisterous, and can be cheeky but dangerous, a menace no. I removed him back to the other school, he's so much happier there, i never receive complaints about the teachers or him.

Even if he was on the tree branch she should have marched him indoors away from prying eyes of parents and had a word, not outside, humiliation is disgusting tactic to use on a small child. see if you can get his name on another school waiting list.

Annanon Tue 18-Jun-13 19:25:00

It is not that surprising that there is a similar thread, as lots of children climb trees, when they probably shouldn't.

FreyedNerves - I'm glad other people, including a teacher complained. It's also a positive sign that the HT called you aside to let you know that the other complaints had been made. To me this shows that she acknowledges that the incident took place and that the behaviour was inappropriate. Having said that, has the Head teacher explicitly reassured you that this is not the way discipline is usually handled at he school? I would still ensure that my complaints had been made in writing / formally recorded for future reference. I would also arrange a follow-up meeting with the Head Teacher, to debrief, once she has had more time to gather information, and take appropriate action.

Please don't be put off by a few negative posts.

exoticfruits Tue 18-Jun-13 19:34:40

If I was so unhappy with the school that I was going to have a big fight I certainly wouldn't leave my DC there.

dancingbutterflies04 Tue 18-Jun-13 19:40:49

I am new to mums net and have only posted once before.

I just wanted to highlight that I am disappointed by how aggressive some of the posters seem to be on here. There seems to be a scary amount of oneupmanship going on.

To the mum posting, I hope you get this resolved. I work in a professional role and take the approach that no matter the circumstances you should react in a calm and controlled way. To shout or lose your temper is to have lost the argument. I treat my child and other people's children as I would treat any other adult. Any adult playing a significant part in a child's life is a role model. Therefore surely a teacher shouting and name calling is setting a poor example?

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 20:02:13

'Any adult playing a significant part in a child's life is a role model. Therefore surely a teacher shouting and name calling is setting a poor example?'
Quite

'Sad thing is, lots of the doubters and justifiers on this thread seem to be teachers.'

Yes, because some teachers are very defensive if any other teacher is criticised generally. You have to wonder why.

OP, I am very glad that other people complained as well as you.

clam Tue 18-Jun-13 20:05:37

Sorry, but the bottom line is that you are responsible for your child's behaviour after they've been dismissed. If he was doing something wrong, then he (or you) needs to take responsibility for that.

That said, it sounds as though the teacher was a bit OTT. But I think you'll have a long wait for an apology.

GibberTheMonkey Tue 18-Jun-13 20:31:16

Don't leave frayed

Mn can be a funny place. Remember the nice and forget the rest

Hope you get it all sorted, glad you got back up from other parents

lottieandmia Tue 18-Jun-13 20:37:11

In the last few years on MN some really unpleasant people have appeared who seem to enjoy just being nasty for the hell of it. This happened to me last year when my dd had norovirus and I posted to ask how much I should let her drink as every little sip was making her vomit violently. Some really nasty people appeared and told me I was a bad parent. I have been here for 10 years and was shaken up by it.

Please don't let a few unpleasant people make you leave MN. Some of us do try to give constructive help.

Phoebe47 Wed 19-Jun-13 21:40:21

This teacher behaved disgracefully. There is never any need to rant and rave at children. She only needed to explain that he had broken a school rule and that she was unhappy that he had done so. Then, if the child did it again there would have to be a consequence - missing play time or something. Her behaviour was completely unacceptable. Glad some of the mums supported you and reported to Head. I am a teacher and any teacher behaving in that way in my school would receive a warning from the Head. The child just needed to be reminded that he had broken a rule and told not to do it again.

BabiesAreLikeBuses Wed 19-Jun-13 23:01:51

Your child should not have climbed a tree. At the school i work at there are a group of parents who refuse to adequately supervise younger dc while waiting for older ones, it is frustrating as an issue when we spend so much time creating the environment, getting eco awards etc. i frequently ask young children to stop it or get down and go and stand by their mummy, i'm not a shouter though. A colleague is and did a lesser rant at a child for the same. She didn't name call but parents still reported and she was ticked off by the head.

It is NOT ok for them to use words like idiot and stupid. Name-calling is not acceptable or professional. I pull the children up for using these (and worse) so could not use them, even if i was ranting.

edam Wed 19-Jun-13 23:11:14

Frayed, I'm glad other parents and at least one other teacher have complained. Sounds like the shouting scary teacher was completely out of order.

notanyanymore Wed 19-Jun-13 23:15:46

don't take the 'what do you hope to achieve from this complaint' line as a dig, its a normal question they ask to get a gist of the situation they are dealing with. don't feel bad about the way you reacted, it sounds better then having s showdown with his teacher in the playground (that would put you ion a much poorer position in terms of making the complaint). i think it sounds like you are doing the right thing, talk to your ds so he knows he knows he has your support and follow through with your complaint to the school. like others have said, if you don't get the right response straight off then take it higher. there's nothing wrong with showing dc you'll fight for him in this kind of situation (without resulting to fighting in the playground!)

signorapacino Wed 19-Jun-13 23:37:48

Frayed I back you completely on this one. Can't believe some of the comments you've had. I think I'd be tempted to have a little quiet word in her ear myself smile. X

Icantstopeatinglol Thu 20-Jun-13 00:00:18

Why should the op have to move her child to another school because of a 'teacher' who can't hold her temper?! Frayed - I would be just as angry and if others say they wouldn't be I'm shocked. If anyone shouted and called my ds (who is 5) an idiot I'd have wiped the floor with them! I honestly don't think I'd be able to keep quiet! You handled the situation well because obviously screaming and shouting in front of children is not ideal so going to speak to the head was the best solution.
I would definately take it further, the fact that other people have now complained too just strengthens your argument.
Hope it all gets sorted x

JassyRadlett Thu 20-Jun-13 00:32:17

Appalled by the apologists on this thread who equate discipline with 'a bollocking' that seems to reasonably include screaming and shouting. And in most other workplaces the inability to keep one's temper can be a disciplinary matter, particularly when there's a power differential. And before anyone starts - yes, teaching is stressful and kids are infuriating. I've worked in that environment. But lots of jobs are incredibly stressful and exhausting, and I don't believe either of those things is an excuse for bullying.

However if that's the kind of role modelling some kids are getting at school, it helps to explain the behaviour of some of the people I've hired early in their careers.

The idea of making an example of one child with a disproportionate punishment to deter the others is slightly Dickensian.

OP, there was some utter bloody nonsense on this thread. Glad you've got independent backup on this person's behaviour.

ravenAK Thu 20-Jun-13 01:20:26

I'm a little surprised that the HT thought it appropriate to discuss with the complaining parent that 'I was informed that several other mums who witnessed my sons humiliation have also put in formal complaints'

That's quite unusual when dealing with formal complaints. There's a protocol to follow which doesn't usually involve a chat with the aggrieved parent about other complaining parents.

'Also, whilst writing I'd just like to say that the teacher I was talking to at the time (about ds2s nosebleed) has ALSO placed a complaint!'

Again - if I were placing a complaint against one of my colleagues (not an unimaginable scenario; I'm not saying All Teachers Are Lovely And Beyond Reproach) - my HT would certainly not beetle off to pass that information on to the parent whose dc was involved in the alleged incident I'd complained about.

Highly unusual procedure. Just saying...

exoticfruits Thu 20-Jun-13 06:55:04

I agree ravenAK- seems highly odd to me.
I also see why teachers have such a hard time if a parent is prepared to walk in and 'wipe the floor with them' - instead of go in and go through the appropriate channels is a civilised manner.
The reason she should move her DC, Icantstopeatinglol, is because it is supposed to be a partnership and it has clearly broken down- it depends whether it can be fixed as to whether I would keep them there.
On a practical level I would work out the odds of winning before you start. As ravenK says- it seems highly unusual so far.

Feenie Thu 20-Jun-13 07:00:09

Indeed. Such unusual behaviour from the Head that it could well affect the whole formal complaint process.

Icantstopeatinglol Thu 20-Jun-13 07:05:46

Exoticfruits, surely if the teacher is in the wrong why should the child be moved away from friends etc?
Yes I said id wipe the floor with her cos noone has the right to spk to any child like that and if they did they should expect to get a response from the childs parents?! I didn't mean physically but I would have strong words for her and I'd be taking it further!
Plus saying teachers have a hard time is hardly an excuse to shout and call a child an idiot, there is absolutely no excuse for that. If that was another parent treating someone else's child like that there would be hell to pay but because its a teacher it's ok?? How ridiculous!

ButchCassidy Thu 20-Jun-13 07:32:29

Glad the head took it seriouslysmile
Just shocked she identified who had also made complaints. Hope that doesn't jeopardise the investigation.

exoticfruits Thu 20-Jun-13 07:38:40

I think you need to get all sides- we have one side here. I know some parents who have a very different version than the actual events. I am not saying that OP is wrong- just the whole thing seems odd to me. It isn't a battle I would take on from the information that we have been given.

exoticfruits Thu 20-Jun-13 07:39:34

Heads generally don't give much away- they investigate first before they comment.

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong Thu 20-Jun-13 08:10:43

All very strange.

Not least that the head's first response was "what do you expect to gain from this" and then, (seemingly on the back of this thread) <maybe the head is a MNer> a gazillion other parents and staff complained and the head is going round telling everyone so.

She'll also be out of a job along with the teacher if she's not careful...

exoticfruits Thu 20-Jun-13 09:55:47

It really isn't that easy to move a Head!
You would have to go through the correct channels and both sides don't appear to understand the correct channels.

ProphetOfDoom Thu 20-Jun-13 21:16:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ProphetOfDoom Thu 20-Jun-13 21:22:03

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Feenie Thu 20-Jun-13 21:26:12

Afaik, she has not prejudiced an investigation.

If she has told the parent concerned that a)another teacher has complained about the same incident and b) so have other parents, then she has definitely prejudiced an investigation.

And if parents have complained it will soon be common knowledge
If it is, then the teacher herself now has grounds for a complaint.

Feenie Thu 20-Jun-13 21:29:54

If the complaint is against a member of staff, it is required by law to be dealt with under the school’s internal confidential procedures.

Allbubble Fri 21-Jun-13 22:44:25

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ProphetOfDoom Fri 21-Jun-13 23:49:04

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Feenie Fri 21-Jun-13 23:54:23

Hard to stop parents talking to one another

The OP didn't say that - she said the Head had told her. That breaches confidentiality, and the teacher would have grounds for a grievance case if she knew. Ditto that the Head told the OP that another teacher has complained.

Head may find herself in a very difficult situation soon.

SpecialAgentTattooedQueen Fri 21-Jun-13 23:54:34

OP, I would like to apologise for not believing you on how bad her behaviour was.

Best of luck to you and DS flowers

I would write a letter about the incident, stating clearly what happened, when and where. Putting it in writing should ensure a proper response and it is good to have it on paper.

I would ask the school to let you know what they are going to do about this.

I have heard anecdotes about a bullying teacher (child having suicidal thoughts and been put on antid's) due to a teacher's behaviour. Same teacher was known to throw books at children, whack them over the head with books and eventually she physically assaulted a child - when the police became involved she resigned. Parents moved dc to other schools rather than have this teacher. I knew someone who had this teacher as a child and was dreading her children getting the teacher.

She only behaved this way when there were no adult witnesses - if a teacher behaved like the one in the op, in front of parents and other teachers I dread to think what she might do when there are no adults watching.

exoticfruits Sat 22-Jun-13 07:50:46

I would read Allbubbles post. The main thing is that she changed schools and got her DC out of the environment where it can happen.
I think she did the important thing and would question whether the battle was worth it. It was never worth it for her own DC- it depends if you want changes for subsequent DCs and whether you think you will actually get them.
Personally I don't think it is a battle you will win, Allbubbles had a far stronger case of humiliation and didn't win- or hasn't won yet.

In the unlikely event that you force an apology do you really want your DS in that school? The reality is that if you do get an apology it will be a forced one and resented.

Allbubble Sat 22-Jun-13 11:47:17

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

exoticfruits Sat 22-Jun-13 11:58:08

To my mind it was simple in your case Allbubble, it was defamation of character- and should have had an immediate public apology. OP's DC was in the wrong in the first place- it is the manner of correcting him that is at fault. Any apology, which I doubt she will get, will be grudging along the lines of 'sorry BUT he shouldn't have been swinging on the tree' and I wonder what OP hopes to achieve?

GibberTheMonkey Sat 22-Jun-13 12:06:14

Allbubble
Sounds you suffered the same closing of ranks I was talking about. Then with the teachers rights its impossible to find out what 'punishment' or retraning they have received.
Once you reach that point it makes it impossible to do much other than leave.
Sadly we left to another equally shit school. Now finally we are happy and our children are happy and getting brilliant results.

clam Sat 22-Jun-13 12:16:44

But allbubble, do you really think that a grudging apology forced out of a Head who clearly isn't sorry in the slightest, is going to make you feel any different, 6 months on?

Allbubble Sat 22-Jun-13 13:10:54

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Allbubbles - what sticks out for me is how staunchly you have stood up for your son. He will remember that in years to come, and it will mean a lot to him. My mum did not stand up for me, or even support me so I could stand up for myself, when I was bullied throughout senior school, and that was a huge factor in my developing depression as a result of the bullying.

Not all schools close ranks, I know it does happen but I also know that schools especially in Scotland can find it very difficult to remove teachers - even where the school are aware of the problem. The teacher I mentioned that eventually resigned had been a bully for a very long time and did not have the respect of most of her peers and I know the HT had been constantly trying to deal with her behaviour without support from his superiors.

Making sure your complaint is properly logged is important, I am not sure of the procedure but I wonder if HMIe would be interested in hearing about these incidents?

Writing a letter makes it official, if you don't get an adequate response in writing then take it further. Teachers are in a position of trust and bullies need to be dealt with wherever they are - but especially when they are teachers.

I feel for Frayednerves in the way some posters have responded to her, I actually checked to see if this was an AIBU post because of the tone of some of the posts. I hope she will not be put off posting in future.

I think parents are very rightly upset and get emotional for their dc when shit happens at school, I suppose because I am more used to reading posts in SN section. I always expect people on here to be supportive where the op obviously is upset and needs support.

Allbubble Sun 23-Jun-13 12:35:04

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forehead Sun 23-Jun-13 12:41:16

would like to hear the Head's side. Something just doesn't add up.

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