Yr 2 SATS

(50 Posts)
Laura0806 Mon 20-May-13 23:09:46

Just wondering if anyone could tell me. my DD was entered for level 3 in year 2 SATS, She panicked and said she didn't get any right (although shes well capable of the work). What happens if she didn't take the level 2 but fails the level 3, what will they give her as a level?Also, not that it really matters at this age but any tips to overcome nerves or anyone experienced chidlren who grow out of it?It can't be very nice for her although i think they are too young to be taking tests myself. Shes not 7 till August.

mrz Tue 21-May-13 06:42:01

The level reported in KS1 is teacher assessment (the test is meant to support the Teacher Assessed level it isn't hugely important)

All our children do level 2 and then the ones who come out as a 2a we put to try level 3.
If they don't get it it really doesn't matter.
To be honest it's more a chance for SLT to have a moan at us as the colours on their tracking sheet won't look right! Grrrr.

Your poor daughter shouldn't feel nervous. It really annoys me how some schools pile on the pressure.

mrz Tue 21-May-13 06:52:58

The rules are quite clear they should do either the level 2 test OR the level 3 test NOt both.

I know the rules but my daughter has also been entered for both by her school.

mrz Tue 21-May-13 06:56:57

"The statutory National Curriculum tasks and tests must be administered to all eligible children who are working at level 1 or above in reading, writing and mathematics. Tasks and tests are designed to help inform the final teacher assessment judgement reported for each child at the end of Key Stage 1.
If teacher assessment and task and test results differ, the teacher assessment results should be reported, provided the judgement is based on an appropriate range of evidence from work completed in class.
Schools are not obliged to report task or test results separately. However, parents must be allowed access to their child’s results on request."

I remember you saying that two years ago mrz, when DD had hers and they all did the level 2, then the ones all doing the level 3 did it later.

This time its my DS2 that has just done his, and they did the same again - reading and maths, they all sat the level 2, then the ones doing the level 3 did then in a different class on a different day.

I queried it with the headteacher two year ago and got fobbed off, I was not surprised it was the same this year.

mrz Tue 21-May-13 07:01:08

"The teacher should decide which level of tasks or tests should be used for each child, taking into account their knowledge of the level at which the child is working.
Teachers can use the tasks and tests to inform their assessment judgements at any time during the year, but children are not to be tested more than once during the year in each subject or attainment target."

Laura0806 Tue 21-May-13 12:29:01

Thank you thats helpful. She was just entered for the level 3 and I dont think the teacher was putting presssure on her she just gets very nervous about everything. Her teacher is very sweet, she is capable of a level 3, she just panics in tests ( I was the same).

Taffeta Tue 21-May-13 13:29:11

Interesting. My Y2 DD was asked to sit in a Y1 classroom whilst most of her class sat what I assume was a L3 SATs paper. She was told this was because she wasn't clever enough to do the test.

caffeinated Tue 21-May-13 13:49:32

Taffeta that is hideous.

Startail Tue 21-May-13 13:53:00

That's horrid Taffeta

And they have clearly changed the rules as I'm sure DD2 did both papers 2 and 3, but she was the last externally marked year I believe.

And actually the teacher did papers 2-3 because she broke her arm.

Feenie Tue 21-May-13 18:51:33

Year 2 assessments have never been externally marked.

mrz Tue 21-May-13 18:55:50

It was the rule in 1997 when I first administered KS1 tests ...

MrsMelons Tue 21-May-13 21:05:26

Taffeta that is horrendous.

At DSs school they all sat L2 then if they got a 2a they sat the level 3. I do not understand this if the child is clearly a level 3 and there really shouldn't be any surprises by this stage.

Are they externally moderated Mrz?

Feenie Tue 21-May-13 21:14:27

Yes, they are every three years by the LEA, who will want to see lots more evidence of a level 3 than a test, and will not take kindly to schools who overtest and, as you say, don't know their children well enough.

MrsMelons Tue 21-May-13 21:17:44

I am only going by what DS told me though. I think they did a practice test and he thought it was the real one. The teacher then said they hadn't actually started them. It was all very confusing,

I know they have finished now and the teacher mentioned them being moderated after half term?

In spite of them apparently doing the L2 and 3 tests wrongly I do think the school in general has been brilliant in knowing the individual children really well so can't complain.

mrz Tue 21-May-13 21:21:42

I always "walk through" a past paper in class to familiarise the children with the format but don't use it as a test. The current Y2 did the same this year.

hamsternumber1 Tue 21-May-13 21:28:26

I'm pretty sure DS1 has done level 2&3. Apparently some children were also given the choice to 'try' the level 3 or not.

I haven't really read up much about SATS so don't really know. However I'm pleased with our school.

Parents have been given no information, which I think reduces pressure on the pupils.

DS has certainly been very relaxed about them.

Feenie Tue 21-May-13 21:45:48

Doesn't matter if they 'try' them or not, in terms of assessment.

If they 'try' and get level 3, and their work is not secure at 3, they remain a 2a.

If they 'try' and don't get level 3, and don't get it but their work is secure at 3, they are a level 3.

Feenie Tue 21-May-13 21:46:39

Overtesting is against the statutory rules and smacks of an insecure teacher, or insecure SMT, or both.

MrsMelons Tue 21-May-13 21:49:56

I really want to find out exactly what they have done as you always just assume they are doing the right thing and I am also aware you cannot always take the word of a 7 YO as gospel grin which is what I am doing I guess.

The one thing that the teachers have been clear to us about is that they will be reporting their actual NC levels as well as their SATs marks.

Feenie Tue 21-May-13 21:51:46

They are legally obliged to report their actual NC levels! Test marks are not supposed to be reported, since they are supposed to be such a small part of the overall teacher assessment.

LilRedWG Tue 21-May-13 21:54:35

It is my honest belief that year two children should not even know they are doing their sats, let alone be discussing levels. I would be having worse with the school for stressing DD if I were you.

MrsMelons Tue 21-May-13 21:59:34

Is that the offical guidance though? Various friends DCs at different schools were all given their SATs marks last year, some along with their NC level but one of them at one school was given a L3 for all subjects, no sub level and she was told that was his SATs results, they had never been given an NC level the whole time they were there, they just used A, B, C, D. This is info from 3 different schools in the same LEA.

DSs school have always given NC levels so I have no doubt they are continually assessing the children, I am somewhat confused over the SATs though now, the school has had a very dynamic head who turned the school around so I guess I am quite surprised that they are not following the correct guidelines.

I am so glad of MN to keep us informed as clearly the schools aren't!

DewDr0p Tue 21-May-13 21:59:54

At our school the children routinely sit either the L2 paper or the L3. Very, very occasionally they do both - ds1 pulled a blinder on his L2 reading assessment two years ago so they let him have a go at the L3 as well. (They were predicting a 2a, which is what he got after all)

Feenie Tue 21-May-13 22:04:56

Is that the offical guidance though? Various friends DCs at different schools were all given their SATs marks last year, some along with their NC level but one of them at one school was given a L3 for all subjects, no sub level and she was told that was his SATs results, they had never been given an NC level the whole time they were there, they just used A, B, C, D.

Yes, it's the law - in England state schools the teacher assessment NC level must be reported. If the child attains a level 2 in Reading, Writing or Maths then it must be finely graded - a 2c, 2b or a 2a.

If a level 1 or level 3 is attained, a whole level need only be reported with no sublevels.

In Speaking and Listening only a whole grade is provided at any level.

Feenie Tue 21-May-13 22:06:02

Same for Science - whole level only.

MrsMelons Tue 21-May-13 22:10:48

I see, I think my friend may have been confused then as she was convinced it was just SATs results but it is likely that was his assessment result overall in fact.

Thanks Feenie, thats really helpful.

Feenie Tue 21-May-13 22:19:57

You're welcome smile

MrsMelons Tue 21-May-13 22:28:05

smile

breadandbutterfly Wed 22-May-13 09:54:48

At parents' evening this year, we were told ds was on course for 3cs or 3bs in his SATS. If he gets 3cs, does that mean he gets a L3? That seemed to be what you were saying, feenie??

From what I've seen of his work at home, his maths is clearly L3, but his writing doesn't seem above a L2 to me - would be enormously surprised if he managed to get L3 in a writing test. But acc to this thread, the tests don't matter that much - so if his teachers think he's a 3c in writing generally, will they assess him as L3 anyway??

Obviously, as a parent, I'd be pleased with all L3s - but only if that is his standard. I don't want him under loads of pressure later because he's assumed to be capable of more than he is (high-achieving older siblings, which might have influenced school to expect top marks??).

MrsMelons Wed 22-May-13 10:01:47

They don't mark then as 3c or 3b in the SATs (I definitely know that bit grin if nothing else) just a L3.

I am not sure about the rest, presumably he would still be marked a 3c in writing if he was consistently working at that level in class?

twitchypalm Wed 22-May-13 10:55:49

Daft question time dk they do yr2 sats at same time as yr 6. Ive got ds in yr 2and dd in year 4 and no mention of sats thanks.

I think that YR2 SATS can be done any time in the school year, but that a lot of school do the tests at the same time as the YR6 tests - ours tend to do all of the tests that week of the YR6 tests.

THey do do the YR2 ones over a 3 week period though.

hamsternumber1 Wed 22-May-13 15:30:56

Ours definitely give level 2 & level 3 papers, so some children do both.

Feenie Wed 22-May-13 18:00:52

At parents' evening this year, we were told ds was on course for 3cs or 3bs in his SATS. If he gets 3cs, does that mean he gets a L3? That seemed to be what you were saying, feenie??

Yes. At KS1 the only requirement is to report any level 3 as just a 3.

Some schools may choose to finely grade it, but they don't have to when reporting.

And yes, if he works at a 3c generally, that's what he'll get.

Feenie Wed 22-May-13 18:02:09

mankyscotslass is right, except that there is no set time limit for the duration of the tests.

breadandbutterfly Wed 22-May-13 21:09:32

Can I ask, as a bit shocked - ds came home and said he had his maths SATS today but that his teacher (well, teaching assistant) said he was 'cheating' because he was talking to another boy at the end of his test and so she made him cross out one of his answers the boys had discussed (that he knew he'd got wrong anyway) and then she crossed out all the answers he'd written on the last page?!

He says they weren't told they shouldn't talk at the end and he didn't change any of his answers. I'm very uncomfortable with a 6 year old being accused publicly of 'cheating' in a national test, esp as according to here, assessments will rest largely on his work over the year anyway.

I'm going to call the school tomorrow and try to resolve this, but is there something I'm missing here?

Feenie Wed 22-May-13 21:23:02

I would be as pissed off as you if my ds - also in Y2 - had been treated like this.

breadandbutterfly Wed 22-May-13 21:38:34

Oh, am hoping there is more to this story than I've been told as I know the teaching assistant well (has taught all 3 of mine) and she is v experienced (more in charge than the teachers!) so don't want a row but am Not Happy About This. sad

Feenie Thu 23-May-13 08:00:55

Keep us updated, breadandbutterfly.

breadandbutterfly Thu 23-May-13 08:20:41

Thanks - have just emailed the school asking his teacher to call me today to clarify situation - am hoping he misunderstood something as it sounds v odd... Will call school too in case they don't see the email (they don't always), to try to resolve this, as I was awake a large part of the night worrying about it. sad

breadandbutterfly Thu 23-May-13 08:52:30

All resolved v quickly - as hoped, appears to have been a misunderstanding (well, a couple of misunderstandings). Teaching assistant called me shortly after seeing my email, and said she HADN'T crossed out any other answers, just marked that one answer as wrong (which he knew it was anyway). So his misunderstanding there.

She does seem to have told him he was 'cheating' - as the children were told clearly beforehand not to talk during the test - BUT she didn't realise he had already finished.

Hopefully no harm done - she said she'd tell him now that he hadn't lost any more marks than the one he knew he'd got wrong.

I'm happy to have talked about it with the teacher concerned rather than playing a game of Chinese Whispers with a teacher who might not even have been there yesterday (there are two part-time teachers, so the teacher I talked to today probably would not have been in the classroom yesterday, and would have had to go back and forth checking things with the TA).

Hope ds is now OK about it - he sounded upset yesterday at being accused (unfairly) of cheating, but if he understands it was a misunderstanding, and that in future 'big tests' he shouldn't talk until the teacher actually has his paper, hopefully he will be fine. smile

Hate exams for little ones... Six is very little to have the pressures of grown-up style 'exams'. sad

MrsMelons Thu 23-May-13 09:01:28

THIS is why they are too young to be taking tests, they may have been told at the beginning but as they are 6 their 'listening' skills are not always great and may have forgotten by the end.

He wasn't accused unfairly of cheating as he was talking during a test which would not be allowed regardless of whether they had finished or not but I think it is difficult to have such high expectations of such young children and she should not have accused him like that at that age - all quite unfair TBH.

breadandbutterfly Thu 23-May-13 09:31:49

Oh well, as long as he's not upset about it any more and hasn't lost marks, no great harm done.

But do agree it is a real shame they have to undergo formal testing at this age. I never did an exam until 11+ - and there are many who argue even that is too young. Six is so young to be doing 'exams' in academic subjects - in the US or Germany, say, they will not even have learnt to read/write formally by this age. In many countries, at 6 they are still at kindergarden, not in formal schooling.

breadandbutterfly Thu 23-May-13 09:35:13

And yes, MrsMelons, agree that he wasn't accused 'unfairly' - but from his point of view, it was, because he didn't understand the rules, being 6 with no previous experience of exams.

Anyway, all resolved now, I hope.

MrsMelons Thu 23-May-13 09:44:43

Hopefully he will forget all about it bless him!

DS1 has just done his and I went to see the teacher yesterday to check they were all over. The school apparently don't make a big deal about it but DS1 seems to be really suffering. He hates getting even one question wrong so the pressure he puts on himself is ridiculous and he has not been sleeping and been really down. It is such a shame as he did in fact get 100% right but he thinks he's 'rubbish' (his words).

I think it happens a lot, my colleagues DS1 has just done his KS2 SATs, in a practice Maths L6 paper he got one question wrong and was distraught. The parents didn't care of course but he was so hard on himself.

breadandbutterfly Thu 23-May-13 13:01:48

Poor little things - though nothing on the shocking example of Taffeta's dd upthread - that was truly dreadful. Even in good schools where children are not so obviously 'labelled', the kids do know who is put in for which levels and which is the 'top' table etc - I don't remember any of this at primary. We had a star chart, but that was for good behaviour not academic achievement.

Big hugs to all stressed-out year 2s. smile

And their parents. smile

MrsMelons Thu 23-May-13 14:23:54

They definitely do, at our school they have shapes or colours for groups but the children know which order they go in (least sides to the most sides etc, alphabetical order) and know which is the top/bottom.

I guess the fact that the papers have L2 or L3 on them gives it away for SATs grin

Glad it is over for all of them although DS is now convinced every piece of structured work they do is SATs!

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