Child told she was "not allowed" to go to the toilet.

(189 Posts)
Offred Mon 13-May-13 18:02:40

Because of SATs, when they were doing IT, she wasn't doing SATs, she is 6. They didn't want the SATs to be disturbed by traipsing children.

DD took it literally and wee'd herself. The class laughed at her. They did not call me, put her in her PE kit with no tights/socks even though we cycle and they know this and it poured with rain/hail today. Then the TA hassled me about the importance of returning the knickers to reception tomorrow morning. I gave them short shrift as my focus was more DD's feelings, called for the teacher. The teacher said DD should have known she could ask.

That is all they plan to do about it.

What do I do?

Dd is fine but I think she should be more upset and being resigned to such a lack of empathy is a bad sign.

I am quite upset.

Littleturkish Mon 13-May-13 18:04:08

I'd be furious. Letter to teacher requesting an apology and removal of stupid rule.

lunar1 Mon 13-May-13 18:09:04

I would expect the teacher to apologise and to be given a written warning at the very least. This is disgusting treatment of a child.

What I would like is for the teacher to be made to stand on a chair in the middle of the class till she pissed herself. Whoever did this is a nasty bully and has no place dealing with children.

Our infant school is in a state of flux because the yr2's are doing tests and need a quiet environment.

However, awful as it is, talk to the teacher again without DD, and get her side of the story.

I always tell my two children that if needs must, go out the room and then deal with the consequences.

It isn't nice at all for your dd I completely agree.

Once I was teaching a year one class & doing individual assessments with them whilst the rest of the class followed a carousel of activities.

I told them not to come & disturb the person doing the assessment with me.

One child took that literally & wet herself the poor thing hadn't wanted to disturb to ask for the loo.

That was about ten years ago & I still feel awful!

LackaDAISYcal Mon 13-May-13 18:18:06

I wouldn't expect the school to call me if my children had wet themselves.

From the school's POV as a regular volunteer, they would have been told to ask at the appropriate time/go during break etc as they are every day. Once one child wants to go during lesson times, it literally opens the floodgates for 30 children all asking and if they let one, they need to let them all. However, saying that, if she had asked she would have been allowed. It seems more like a case of she didn't ask rather than was outright denied.

And your last line is telling. "DD is fine, but I think she should be more upset" I think you might be projecting your own feelings here. DD is fine, perhaps realises the mistake was with her for not even asking? I don't think the school can be blamed here, other than for not making it more clear that they could ask if desperate, for not making alternative toiletting arrangements/ or not cancelling/rearranging lessons around the SATs rooms and for not finding her something more appropriate to wear home.

And I think lunar1 is overreacting a bit. If you read the OP, the teacher didn't deny a child the toilet; the child never even asked to go.

Coconutty Mon 13-May-13 18:23:54

How do you know the class laughed at her? Most of the 6yos in our school have wet themselves and wouldn't be at all interested if someone else did.

We wouldn't call the parent either.

learnandsay Mon 13-May-13 18:24:48

We don't know what the children were told they could and couldn't do.If, as the title suggests, they were actually told that they couldn't go, then the teacher is wrong and she couldn't have known that she could ask because she had already been told that she couldn't go.

So, we really need to know accurately who said what to whom, and that's unlikely to be forthcoming.

Op did your dd ask to go to the loo or not?

In my case the child didnt ask at all - she wasn't denied her right to go.
Also wouldnt call from school or expect a call from dds school due to a wee incident.

The school do sound a bit harsh pressuring you for the return of second hand knickers !

mrz Mon 13-May-13 18:28:37

We wouldn't call parents either just discretely change the child into dry clothes and our children aren't normally allowed to go to the toilet during lessons regardless of whether it is SATs week or not.

lunar1 Mon 13-May-13 18:30:23

You are right daisy i did overreact I missed the last bit of the post where she said her dd wasn't to bothered. I was badly bullied by a teacher and was made to wet myself at school. However a child should always be able to ask for the toilet.

LackaDAISYcal Mon 13-May-13 18:34:22

I don't think any school encourages it, though DD is in Y1 and they do have toilets in the classroom, but that's mainly because it used to be the reception room. After Yr1 they are discouraged, even though the toilets are outside the classroom doors in the cloakroom.

So, OP was it a case of them being told collectively that due to SATS they would need to wait until they were finished in the IT suite before being allowed to use the toilet, or was she told that she, personally, wasn't allowed after asking?

Offred Mon 13-May-13 18:34:32

I think they should have called me to ask me to bring her clothes so she could cycle home. We live 3 miles away and they make a big deal of how we are so good for cycling in all weathers. They left her in shorts and no socks to cycle in hail.

I don't think it was her fault for not asking. The teacher's story is that the it tech told them they weren't allowed to go and dd had taken that literally.

I don't think it is right to actually blame dd for not knowing that she should have asked when they admit they explicitly told them they weren't allowed.

Teacher confirms the tech told her that and that the class laughed.

I think what has happened is upsetting and humiliating and that dd being resigns to expecting that from school is not good.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 18:35:49

She didnt ask, she said she was too afraid to because she thought she'd ruin the y6's SATs so she tried to hold it in.

LackaDAISYcal Mon 13-May-13 18:37:11

No worries lunar; these are the sort of incidents that stay with you. I was humiliated by a teacher for wetting myself in primary 3 (so aged 6/7) and it's never left me. I always make sure that mine are drilled into going to the loo at breaktimes to avoid it happening to them. Though schools are generally a lot less Victorian more accommodating these days, aren't they?

LackaDAISYcal Mon 13-May-13 18:43:31

I think the problem here is with the IT tech then isn't it, not the teacher?

Is the teacher or TA not with them in the IT suite? I would expoect them to have a teacher with them, not just the IT Tech. I would have a word with the headteache tomorrow. And yes, they should have found her something more suitable to wear home. I can't believe they don't have spare tights/long socks/trousers.

And the asking for the spare knickers to be brought back soon...I can see where they are coming from; no-one ever returns stuff and they have none for emergencies like this.

lisson Mon 13-May-13 18:44:25

I don't get it... if someone tells you that you may not go to the loo, then how else is there to take apart from literally?

What else could the IT tech have meant?

EvilTwins Mon 13-May-13 18:48:19

I think you're massive overreacting OP. DTD2 is also 6 and she wet herself at school a couple of weeks ago because age needed to go when they were in assembly and knew that they weren't allowed to talk in assembly so interpreted that as not being allowed to ask to go. She managed to get through assembly but them didn't make it to the toilet in time. They didn't call me, just sorted her out and gave me her wet stuff in a bag when I picked her up.

I think you're being a bit ridiculous expecting them to call because you live 3 miles away and cycle. Presumably they follow the same routine for every child who has an accident.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 18:49:17

Yes, I understand that. I said I would return them as soon as i could and definitely by the end of the week when I had washed them but they insisted it must be tomorrow morning.

I don't think any school employee should ever tell any child they are not allowed to go to the toilet in any circumstances, yes, the problem is with the tech. I think the teacher does stay in with them in the IT suite though.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 18:53:31

I don't think it is ridiculous to expect them to call me and ask me to bring a pair of trousers so I could actually physically get her home without her freezing at all! What's the actual problem with doing that? They just left her to freeze, if they couldn't find something for her legs I think they absolutely should have called me and I think they are wrong for blaming her for not asking when they told her she wasn't allowed to go.

EvilTwins Mon 13-May-13 18:55:59

Children do tend to put their own interpretation on things though, don't they? DTD2 has never been told "you are not allowed to put your hand up to ask to go to the toilet in assembly" - I know this because I asked her. However, she does know that other children have been told off for talking in assembly and didn't want to get into trouble.

OP, if your DD is ok, then I think to should just leave it.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 19:00:51

Evil : the TAs and the teacher all told me (separately) that the IT tech told the children they were not allowed to go to the toilet because they would disturb the SATs. DD hasn't put any spin on it. They actually just told the children that, not her specifically, but generally when they first went to the IT suite.

EvilTwins Mon 13-May-13 19:03:00

So what do you want them to do?

GibberTheMonkey Mon 13-May-13 19:03:30

This thread has brought back horrible
memories for me. I too was told I couldn't go to the toilet at a similar age and wet myself, everyone laughed and my peers remembered it for years after.
I still feel upset when I think about the embarrassment and how much I dislike that teacher. I'm 32 now. sad

GibberTheMonkey Mon 13-May-13 19:04:32

Just seen lacksadaisy's post. So its not just me either

Offred Mon 13-May-13 19:07:53

Dd has struggled to integrate with school anyway, emotionally, she is being bullied and the school raised concerns about her emotions last year but were not very supportive in helping her settle in, felt she just needed to suck it up and shouldn't be finding it so hard socially. They were worried because she would never focus on anything and seemed distracted. Now she has gone too far the other way and is extremely overly compliant. Recently had total breakdown going into school over the assembly because she had a big part and was nervous but hadn't wanted to tell the teacher her worries and instead had a big tantrum. I feel they've taught her they are not interested in her feelings, they just want her to comply and that has contributed to what happened today. It is very confusing to be told to comply and then told she should have known they didn't mean something they said and she should have known that. How? How should she know when they mean things and when they don't?

Offred Mon 13-May-13 19:11:14

I want them to speak to the tech and I want them to acknowledge that they shouldn't have told the class they weren't allowed to go to the toilet. I think they should not be blaming dd for not knowing she would be allowed if she asked. There were better ways of phrasing that so that the children understood that it was important they went before the lesson and didnt traipse in and out.

NeoMaxiZoomDweebie Mon 13-May-13 19:11:41

Of course the poor thing took it literally! [angy] STUPID teacher!

LackaDAISYcal Mon 13-May-13 19:17:03

You could have asked for something more suitable when you picked her up? Asked to have a dig through lost property or asked a friend if they had anything spare?

I really think you are over-reacting here as well. Though in light of your new information about her emotional wellbeing, I can understand why.
Notwithstanding, the school could have handled it better and maybe need to reschedule the KS1 IT classes for this week during SATS so the little ones aren't put in the position of feeling that they are upsetting the exams?

Offred Mon 13-May-13 19:18:18

Even if they'd said that and then dd had wet herself still I'd not be upset if they had just said to her "oh sorry, dd we didn't mean that you couldn't ask!" Then they'd tried to find her some decent clothes and if not given me a ring to bring some. It's the attitude that's mostly the problem, like she had inconvenienced them and they were annoyed at her rather than just actually dealing with it like humans. Why leave her to cycle home like that when all it would have taken was a quick phone call. This is a class of 20 with a teacher, two TAs, the IT tech and two receptionists all potentially able to quickly give me a ring. If I had sent her in in the morning with shorts and no socks/tights they'd be logging it as a safeguarding issue.

Tournament Mon 13-May-13 19:18:33

I'm shock at the suggestion that this is somehow a traumatic life event for DD. Not nice, but soon forgotten if no big fuss is made of it. I work in a school and honestly, 6yo's wetting themselves is not unusual.

I agree it sounds like the teacher could have worded it differently, but I really don't see the benefit of making a huge issue of it.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 19:21:13

But yes, this thread is making me see that actually she is getting much better at dealing with the bullies. When the class laughed she pretended to be a zombie so they weren't humiliating her but laughing at her doing something funny.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 19:23:07

I don't think it is a traumatic life event. She's had much worse. I am just upset at the way the school is handling it; blaming her effectively.

Elibean Mon 13-May-13 19:23:39

My biggest concern would be the fact that dd seems to be being blamed for not having asked to go (when she was told she couldn't), and that she wasn't dressed in appropriate clothes in chilly weather.

I wouldn't expect to be called unless a) dd was very upset or b) there were no appropriate clothes for them to dress her in.

Whether or not children are normally allowed to go to the toilet mid lesson is up to the individual school - but there should always be a clear message that urgent need can be expressed and heard!

The lack of empathy and the way they've handled things, if the class laughed and dd was not supported, is not ok either sad

Elibean Mon 13-May-13 19:25:32

oh - and I am remembering dd2 pooing in her pants when she had a tummy upset and decided (without being told anything of the sort) she wasn't allowed to interrupt the carpet time just before going home. She was very distressed, but the teacher was lovely and made sure dd had dry clothes, was not humiliated, and understood to ask next time.

She was 5 at the time.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 19:26:04

Yes, that's what I am concerned about elibean. They claimed not to have anything else for her to wear and hadn't called me to ask me to bring something. Then had an attitude of irritation with me when I picked her up. No concern for her at all.

NiceTabard Mon 13-May-13 19:27:50

I have a very literal DD and if someone tells her something then that's the way it is. She is also very obedient.

If you tell children they are not allowed to go to the toilet then many of them will get the message that they are not allowed to go to the toilet. If they are compliant or literal they will take what they are told at face value and that will be that.

It was a really stupid thing for the technician to say - especially given that they didn't mean it confused - and while some situations where a child wets themself go by without much else, in a situation where the child has been told one thing and then effectively told that they did the wrong thing by doing as they were told + the other children laughing, it can be an incident that erodes confidence and stays with the child for a long time.

LackaDAISYcal Mon 13-May-13 19:29:39

Oh come on OP, no tights or socks a safeguarding issue? really? And your indignation iver the weather? Dies she not have a waterproof suit or waterproof trousers? Those over her shorts would have been perfectly warm enough. And if she doesn't have waterproofs, why not? why blame the school for your neglect to provide suitable wet weather cycling gear?

I think your indignation is getting the better of you now. You obviously have issues with the way the school are dealing with your DD generally and this may well be the last straw for you, but your letting it cloud your judgement somewhat over something and nothing, if this had been an isolated incident. If the whole school attitude is causing you this much caoncern, make an appointment to see the headteacher and get your underlying concerns addressed rather than making this incident out to be a much bigger thing that it would appear to be.

And as a precaution, I would send her in with spare clothes or keep a spare set in your panniers in case it happens again, or get her some waterproof trousers.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 19:30:16

I think she will be fine over this incident, she pulled it back with comedy, her first success with the bullying tbh. I am concerned that the school didnt handle it properly and still aren't when I have complained. I understand the tech is just a tech and they make these mistakes but the whole process in dealing with it is what has gone wrong.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 19:33:49

She normally has waterproofs but it was sunny and warm this morning. They were aware she didn't have them. She had a raincoat and would have been fine in her uniform but not with bare legs.

Yes, of course they would safeguard if I had sent her in in shorts and no socks. Inappropriate clothes are a sign of neglect. I was not aware she'd wet her tights and been put in her PE kit otherwise obviously I would have brought her some clothes.

lljkk Mon 13-May-13 19:35:24

Dunno, am on the fence. Cycling in hail is miserable no matter what you wear, anyway.

By end of y2 they need to learn to manage their toileting so that they don't need breaks during actual class time. But this should have become apparent in recent months, not if it was a sudden rule. I know she's unlucky enough to be one of the younger ones, but she still needs to learn self-control (usual disclaimers about SN apply).

And if she's being bullied sounds like she needs to strongly learn to stand up for herself. Saying that as a child victim of bullying myself. It's all part of the same picture, needing to learn to be assertive.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 19:35:57

She's only in year 1

pofacedlemonsucker Mon 13-May-13 19:39:27

Loads of kids wet themselves at school.

I really can't get too exercised about it. They have her dry things.

I have literally lost track of the times (well above thirty) that mine have appeared at the gates merrily swinging a carrier bag of urine soaked uniform.

She didn't make a big deal about it because it isn't a big deal and the school dealt with it correctly.

You going on and on will merely convince her that this is awful and she should be ashamed, and that the staff are incapable of looking after her.

<slow hand clap>

Get over it. Honestly. Mountain out of a molehill.

LackaDAISYcal Mon 13-May-13 19:41:17

inappropriate clothes repeatedly over a period of time is a sign of neglect, ffs. And you cannot expect the school to provide changeable weather suitable spare clothes when you don't even do it yourself. My DS2 came home wearing shorts after wetting himself. It was snowing when I picked him up. I appreciated that it's all the school had available and listened to him whinge all the way home. I did not expect that they should have called me. It's a bit of weather. No-one died being cold and wet on the way home from school.

Get over yourself about the clothes and sort out the underlying issues with the school, which really is the crux of the matter here.

NiceTabard Mon 13-May-13 19:43:38

Depends how the school handle it I think.

DD wet herself a few times in recep and they quietly gave her some clothes to change into.

This thing with all the other children laughing bothers me, as does the thing about the DD being bullied. Doesn't sound like a very caring atmos.

OP I think you need to go in and talk to them about all the issues as a piece.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 19:49:05

Why is it unreasonable to expect they could have called me to ask me to bring something for her legs/feet?

I DO normally bring weather proof stuff and she would have been fine if she had been in the clothes I had sent her to school in. THEY changed her clothes, I was not aware they had and they could easily have quickly called me so why didn't they? Is the argument really that attributing blame is more important than dd actually being looked after?

I am not making it into a big deal with dd, I don't agree they handled it properly because they should never have told the class they weren't allowed to go to the toilet and when they realised the tech had said that and dd had taken it literally they should have handled it much better than blaming dd for not asking.

I have been dealing with the other issues btw. This is still an issue in its own right to me.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 19:51:59

I wasn't expecting the school to provide anything. I didn't expect dd to have an accident because she is 6 and has been potty trained for 4 years. I would not have predicted that she would be told the class were not allowed to go to the toilet. When that happened I simply expected them to treat her like a human, not to blame her and if they didn't have anything similar to what she was wearing to just call me so I could bring something. I fail to see how that's unreasonable, they weren't swapping like for like when they put her pe kit on.

mrz Mon 13-May-13 19:52:34

"This is still an issue in its own right to me ."

Catmint Mon 13-May-13 19:53:44

My dd is also in y1 age 6 and recently went brought a phase of wetting herself every day because she thought that she was not allowed to go to the toilet. She got really sore skin from having wee all over her.

We really had to work hard to remind her to go to the toilet during break, and to ask to go at other times if needed. And we also agreed that if she needed to go and no one noticed her hand was up, she should go anyway. We told the teacher, who reluctantly agreed. ( dd had said several times that teacher had not noticed her with her hand up).

She now goes to school with an entire change of clothes in her bag, because they ran out of things to lend her that fit. They never put her in her pe kit, always uniform items. Also, the knickers they lent her once or twice were new.

Obviously you need to wash and dry the items before returning them. Your dd's school sounds a bit odd, op. It sounds as if they have never had a child have an accident before and had no idea how to deal with it, but that couldn't be the case, could it?

Offred Mon 13-May-13 19:54:00

Yes, to me. I thought my op made it very clear that I am upset and dd is fine. As dd's parent, who is responsible for making sure she is cared for am I not allowed to be upset if I feel a care provider is not providing up to scratch care?

Offred Mon 13-May-13 19:55:09

Accidents are rare I think yes. Outside of reception class anyway.

Smartiepants79 Mon 13-May-13 19:57:57

Although I do personally feel that you are overreacting a little here, you clearly have bigger issues with school than just this incident.
You need a calm but firm chat with her teacher and if that doesn't solve anything, with the head.Maybe this shcool is not a good fit for your DD.
Is it not a good thing that she is learning to deal with these situations better?
I'm a teacher and would expect most of my kids to know that they can ask if they are desperate. Any kids laughing would have got very short shrift from me. My experience is that kids this age take little notice of accidents like this so I'm surprised they all laughed.
We would not phone a parent to tell them they have had an accident.
Her PE kit is presumably provided by you so should really have contained socks and a jumper if not jogging bottoms as well. But did you ask if they could find her some socks and trousers to go home in.?

LackaDAISYcal Mon 13-May-13 20:01:37

It's not unreasonable, but not the end of the world that they didn't, bearing in mind that all spare bodies this week will be helping support the Yr 6 SATS, either as invigilators, or one to one supporters.

It's not really about the lack of a phone call, it's about your ongoing issues with the school. I get that, I really do.

If your dd is fine then I would probably stop worrying about it. Is the teacher supposed to have read her mind!? And I would debate 'caregiver' and change it to 'educator'.

If she didn't ask to go, and is ok about it then I think you are overreacting.
I expect school didn't phone you because it wasn't poo, and they had something she could wear.

It happens really often, it really does, about twice a week in my class, various children too. The bit I would be cross with is that the other children laughed but the teacher should not write you an apology or get a written warning are you serious do you actually comprehend what teachers do all day?

In fact that makes me laugh. I would have been sacked 100 times over if I had to write an apology letter every time a child wet themselves, or worse, and it gets much much worse than that.

I always agree with you normally though OP! grin

Tournament Mon 13-May-13 20:02:08

Offred, accidents are rarer outside reception, but really, not rare. We had a yr4 wet today. Unusua for her, but one of those things. She changed into PE kit and carried on with her day. Never crossed anyone's mind that mum should be called.

clam Mon 13-May-13 20:02:26

I think it's unreasonable for you to expect the school to have a working knowledge of your after-school cycling routines, yes. They have a whole class of kids to deal with throughout the day. You have just the one.

You're over-reacting, sorry.

LackaDAISYcal Mon 13-May-13 20:07:17

...and even if they do know that you cycle, they would probably have assumed that you would have suitable wet weather cover ups about your person, given the vagaries of the British weather and all!

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:09:34

I'm not asking the teacher to write an apology letter. hmm

I'm simply saying it was handled incorrectly and I have spoken to the teacher and I'm not happy with her response; blaming dd.

I have four children not one. They DO already know that we cycle and it is not rocket science to predict that a parent might be expecting the child to be in the same clothes they were in in the morning. Lots of children walk to school and cycle this time of year. Is it really so unreasonable to expect that with that staffing level they could have called when they realised they had nothing equivalent to put her in. It it was a class of 30 with one teacher I'd be more sympathetic.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:11:08

The weather clothes go into class with the dc, so they knew she had nothing else. I don't always pick them up so their stuff stays with them.

Please explain why they couldn't have called. One teacher, two TAs, the IT tech and two receptionists, her class is a class of 20.

5318008 Mon 13-May-13 20:13:59

Offred I would be angry and upset with sch too. Poor DD.

mrz Mon 13-May-13 20:14:02

because like you they didn't know it was going to start hail stoning on the way home?

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:14:05

And in case you missed it, I'm not expecting them to know about our journey home. I'm saying they DO know and they actively make a fuss of it/use it to promote their Eco-credentials.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:14:43

They had eyes to see it was hail stoning from about 2 mrz.

Tournament Mon 13-May-13 20:16:38

I wouldn't have called because there was no reason to, she was fine. The school can't win, many parents would have said "can't she wear her PE kit?" to save them the trip and then you're made to feel like you've wasted their (and your) time by calling.

I do think you're expecting too much, for the teacher to be aware of what kind of coat each chid has and frankly, making sure they have an appropriate one is the parent's job.

Tournament Mon 13-May-13 20:18:51

How would her school uniform have protected her from hail better than PE kit? Have I missed the bit about why you didn't take a coat with you, if the weather was that bad?

mrz Mon 13-May-13 20:19:32

so why didn't you take the waterproofs with you to school if you saw it was hail stoning? Surely school tights don't offer much protection from hail stones

FannyMcNally Mon 13-May-13 20:19:54

If dd was upset and cold and asking for more clothes then yes, YANBU. But it sounds like she handled it beautifully and got on with her day.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:21:41

I'm not expecting them to be aware. I am saying I know they are aware and that they have a small class and lots of staff which is why I think they could have called me. I've said repeatedly that if it was a big school/class with just one hard pressed teacher I'd be more sympathetic. That is not the case. In the circs, why couldn't they have called? They were aware of the full situation. In the past I have told them they can call about similarity stuff.

The reason for them to call was that they were aware they couldn't provide her with equivalent clothing to what she was wearing when she came in.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:22:48

Because mrz she would have been fine in her thick woollen tights. She was cold and complaining/shivering in her shorts with no socks.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:23:43

Bare legs and no socks are quite a lot colder than thick woollen tights, is that hard to believe?

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:24:36

She had clothes that would have been appropriate, they changed her clothes.

Yes, that was aimed at the posters who suggested a letter or written warning, I know you didn't say that.

Also we rely on kind parents donating their children's old clothes so that we have sufficient supplies, so there isn't always enough to go round, pe kit may have been the only option.

mrz Mon 13-May-13 20:28:24

thick wet woollen tight are a lot colder IMHO

they changed her clothes because she wet herself

clam Mon 13-May-13 20:28:52

Possibly because the office staff have got 1001 things to do, rather than spend their day getting hold of parents in case they're not suitably equipped for their child's journey home on the off-chance it might rain.

Or should I expect the school to phone me to ask me to bring an umbrella to collect my child as it might rain and the class teacher "knew she didn't have an umbrella with her."

Tournament Mon 13-May-13 20:31:39

Yes, I was going to say that mrz, not once they're wet! But I meant wet from the hail.

juniper9 Mon 13-May-13 20:33:57

I too think you're massively over-reacting.

It's not rare for a 6 year old to wet themselves, and it's also not rare for teachers to not let children go to the toilet during lesson times. Lots of schools operate a 'you only go at break' rule.

It's unfortunate that the weather turned suddenly, but I think you're getting massively wound up by quite a minor incident.

mrz Mon 13-May-13 20:34:17

so did I unless the OP is going to claim their hail is dry

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:37:10

The weather didnt turn suddenly. It turned dramatically after lunch, during the afternoon.

From experience. Thick woollen tights do not result in a shivering/complaining dd, shorts and no socks did.

Tournament Mon 13-May-13 20:38:52

So why didn't you take the waterproofs?

Perhaps she was encouraged to complain?

AICM Mon 13-May-13 20:39:16

Does anybody else feel sorry for the teacher here? Having to deal with a parent who is totally unable to accept reason.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:40:09

Teachers aren't allowed to tell children they are not allowed to use the toilet during lessons. Stopping children using the toilet is very bad for them. Just because many teachers may do it doesn't mean it is reasonable.

cloudpuff Mon 13-May-13 20:40:16

At what point in the day did dd have her accident? Is it possible that they changed her into her PE kit when the weather was warm/dry and then thought no more of it? It sounds more thoughtless than malice imo

My dd (also 6 at the time) wet herself after some visiting judo instructer told the children he didnt want to see any hands up while he was talking, dd was upset as she was then reprimanded by her class teacher (who was not in the PE lesson) for not using the toilet, dd didnt want to "backchat" so didnt explain why she never asked, as soon as she came over to me at collection she burst into tears, I explained to the class teacher what had happened though the next day and dd got an apology from both the class teacher and the judo instructer the following week.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:40:42

What is the reason acim?

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:42:18

I didn't take the waterproofs because what dd went to school in was fine and I was not aware she was in her PE kit. As I have said. Repeatedly.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:42:55

It is possible it was done in the morning and thought no more of yes, that would be a decent explanation.

mrz Mon 13-May-13 20:43:23

"Teachers aren't allowed to tell children they are not allowed to use the toilet during lessons." says who?

clam Mon 13-May-13 20:43:32

I never quite see the point of "demanding an apology." Surely anything that has to be demanded isn't really worth having?

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:44:12

Why would I encourage her to complain? I don't want her to be upset. I'm worried that she is resigned to the crappy blamey attitude of school.

Tournament Mon 13-May-13 20:44:40

Yes, but you knew it was hailing, which is your issue.

Tournament Mon 13-May-13 20:45:29

To complain about being cold. You didn't "tell" her she would be cold in her PE kit?

NotWilliamBoyd Mon 13-May-13 20:48:23

We cycle a lot as a family. I am very confused by the weather you describe, OP - it was so unpleasant that the school should have phoned you to ask you to bring in dry clothes for Dd for cycling home, yet not bad enough for you to bring waterproof trousers for her anyway? I don't get it, sorry. I would assume that the school thought that you would be bringing waterproof trews anyway??? I would hate hate hate to cycle in rain/hail in 'thick woollen tights" and would prefer the bare leg option, as would my Dc.

clam Mon 13-May-13 20:51:51

I don't 'forbid' my class to go to the loo during lesson-time, but I encourage them to wait until break if they can. If I'm actually teaching, then they must wait (although they know that if it really is an emergency then they can just go). During independent work-time, then they can make a sensible decision to go if they need without asking.
Mind you, they're Year 4 and the loos are in a linked part of the classroom.

LackaDAISYcal Mon 13-May-13 20:53:08

or the crappy blamey attitude of her parent?

No you didn't know she would be in her pe kit, but equally you failed to think ahead about the change in the weather. If it hadn't "dramatically" turned bad, pe kit would probably have been fine to come home in. And as the SATS are in the morning, she would have been changed into the pe kit in the morning when the weather was still reasonable.

As I've said before, this is not really about the pe kit, or the wetting per se. Stop focussing on these, minor, albeit badly handled incidents and deal with the bigger issues that you have with the school. Set out what you want to say to the head rather than arguing about the lack of a phone call to say it's raining with a bunch of strangers on the internet.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:54:02

No, I didn't tell her she would be cold in her pe kit. She WAS cold when we got home.

If you read the dc always have their weatherproof clothes in school.

I am saying I was operating under the impression that she would be in the clothes she was wearing when I dropped her off and not in her pe kit. The bare legs are not the only problem. The no socks were quite part of it.

This is a little pointless though since you can all reason out or have opinions from a distance about what you might have preferred to be on dd's legs. No-one has explained why the school, who knew the situation, had not replaced like with like and knew they couldn't and had one teacher, two TA's a tech and two receptionists and a class of 20 to deal with could not have called.

That isn't even the main issue, the main thing is the crappy blamey attitude.

AICM Mon 13-May-13 20:54:14

Could we all just agree that this thread is a waste of time now and we should just stop posting?

mrz Mon 13-May-13 20:54:37

My Y1s know they can go if they are desperate (and I know 2 need to go frequently) but most can last an hour without needing to go

mrz Mon 13-May-13 20:56:31

Your DC always have their waterproof clothes in school but your DC didn't have them today when it was hailing hmm

Tournament Mon 13-May-13 20:56:33

The could have called, clearly, if they'd felt it was necessary. They didn't.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:59:10

Ok clam but in this case they were told they were not allowed to go.

I didn't fail to consider the weather. I thought about what dd went to school in which has always been fine in the past but she was not wearing that and got cold. Why would I tell her to be cold? Jeez...

I'm not focusing on the clothes. I'm more bothered about the blaming of dd. this thread has become circular about the clothes because people keep obsessing over it.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 20:59:34

Yes, because this morning it was sunny... If you read.

mrz Mon 13-May-13 21:00:45

but you saw it was hailstoning at 2pm

Offred Mon 13-May-13 21:01:47

If I was obsessing over the clothes the thread would be titled "blah blah bare legs"

It is simply a part of the whole thing where I feel they've been blaming her for something which actually was the tech's fault and when it is inappropriate to deal with an accident by blaming the child.

clam Mon 13-May-13 21:02:31

See, I take issue with the fact that the school "knew the situation." You're assuming that your travel arrangements are at the forefront of their mind. Of course they're not.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 21:02:40

Yes, mrz I saw the hailstones and I thought, dc have warm raincoats and covered legs. Which, in this situation has previously been fine.

clam Mon 13-May-13 21:03:09

How did they blame your dd? Did I miss that?

Offred Mon 13-May-13 21:04:19

No, I'm assuming that dealing with dd's accident appropriately should be at the forefront of their minds when it actually happened. I don't think they did, not just because they didn't think to call about the clothes. If it happened in he morning they won't have let her play out at break time in the pe kit.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 21:05:11

clam - they told her it happened because she "should have known to ask" after they had told the class they weren't allowed.

mrz Mon 13-May-13 21:07:03

I think your daughter not asking has more to do with the issues you mentioned than with today's events

simpson Mon 13-May-13 21:07:09

DD (reception) has wet herself twice at school in the last week despite not wetting herself at home for over 18 months.

They have just changed her (and one of those times was into her PE kit) and she had to walk home with bare legs in the rain...

It was not a huge issue for me (or DD) tbh...

DD does have "toilet issues" and I will expect her to be able to go to the toilet whenever she needs to in yr1. It will make me angry if she is refused to be allowed to use the loo (but at the same time I would never take my DD's word that she was not allowed to go iyswim).

Surely wet cold woollen tights would have been worse than bare legs?

She's 6. She had an accident. it happens. You are making this much bigger than it ought to be, understandably because of your other issues with the school, but this is not the battle to pick.

NotWilliamBoyd Mon 13-May-13 21:08:57

Legs covered in thick woollen tights which would surely soak up all the liquid and keep it next to the skin, cold, soggy and heavy? Lovely! Great for cycling in......

Sorry I know you wanted to get off the topic of clothing but it seems so illogical, I suspect that that is why people have commented on it.

I agree with others, clearly you are not happy with the school for other reasons. I hope that things settle for you and Dd, but don't get sidetracked by this issue. I work in schools and wetting accidents in KS1 are very common.

NotWilliamBoyd Mon 13-May-13 21:10:29

?...or what Frebbie said, actually, much better put!

clam Mon 13-May-13 21:11:06

I don't think that saying to a child, "you should have known to ask" is blaming them? It's a quite natural reaction, surely?

And if you feel they didn't make a big deal of her 'accident' then surely that's a good thing? It means it's very common and run-of-the-mill, so your dd is unlikely to have stood out.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 21:11:40

It isn't dd's word. The teacher and the ta's all told me the tech had told them they weren't allowed (as a class).

Mrz-Why would dd ask to go when she had been told they weren't allowed to go? She tried to hold it in because she thought they weren't allowed.

The teacher's thought is that despite being told they weren't allowed dd "should have known" that she could ask. She said she thought she had to follow the rules which is what the school has been trying to drum into her since she started last year. The reason she doesn't know is because they have focused on teaching her to follow the rules.

AlienAttack Mon 13-May-13 21:14:08

OP, just reading through this thread and it seems high proportion of posters are clear you've over reacted. You may not agree with what they have posted but you came on here asking "what do I do?" By my reckoning, the vast majority of people have advise you to leave it, especially given your DD is not distressed by this incident.
You mention other issues with the school and I can appreciate you wish to address these. But I think the advice you are overwhelmingly being given here is not to conflate this specific issue with any broader issues you may have with the school. Good luck with sorting the broader issues.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 21:14:18

So what are they actually asking for from her? Do they want her to follow the rules and not have an opinion or do they want her to use her brain? The fact she casually believed they would want her to wee herself and be laughed at rather than ask to go is worrying isn't it?

mrz Mon 13-May-13 21:14:59

Because that is what children do when they are desperate for the loo Offred... they make the fact known!

clam Mon 13-May-13 21:16:21

I think you might be taking this too literally. I find it hard to believe that the class has never had the issue before of children misunderstanding the "no toilet" rule. It comes up all the time. Generally speaking you don't go to the loo in lesson time, unless you're really desperate in which case, of course you may go. Teachers will be saying this all the time, in order to root out the time-wasters. Most children have got it by...not sure, but probably Year 1 or 2?

Offred. She wet herself. Nobody died. It happens every day at the KS1 stage. It's not a disaster and they didn't leave her sitting in wet.

I get that you are massively pissed off with the school And that the teacher or IT person didn't communicate the instruction clearly. But at the end of the day she knows now, and it won't happen again.

Maybe if you spell out your other issues some of us could help you word a strong letter of complaint for those? But this isn't the right issue to pick - but I understand why you're so angry, but honestly it's disproportionate.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 21:18:05

The posters saying I have over reacted are attributing a greater reaction to me than I am having.

I am not happy with the school's handling of the accident or the teacher's response because they should not have told the class they weren't allowed to use the toilet and instead of understanding that their response is to say dd should be expected to know when they mean what they say and when they don't, which I don't think is reasonable.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 21:20:20

I'm not massively pissed off. I have said over and over that I don't think this is a massive issue for her. It is other posters who have been massively pissed off over it.

I'm upset that they are still not dealing with her well and unhappy with their response. I've been annoyed at the posters pouring over the minutiae of one detail and still getting things wrong. That is very little to do with the original thing.

clam Mon 13-May-13 21:22:01

But it's exactly that sort of thing that she is going to have to learn in life! That there are shades of meaning in rules. Sounds like she's learnt this one now, anyway.

I misunderstood then I'm sorry. I thought you had other issues with the school and had thought you might have been projecting these onto today's incident.

Good luck.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 21:22:13

I don't want to write a strongly worded letter. hmm

Just wanted a little advice about where to go from here. I don't think dropping it entirely is a good plan when they have not identified how unwise it is to tell y1 they are not allowed to use the toilets.

clam Mon 13-May-13 21:23:52

Which posters are massively pissed off over it? We're the ones saying it's no big deal. You yourself have said your dd isn't that fussed. The only one who's still banging on about unreasonable treatment is you.

clam Mon 13-May-13 21:25:24

Where to go from here? Tell your dd that of course she must let the teacher know if she really is desperate for the loo and she will be allowed to do so.

mrz Mon 13-May-13 21:26:24

Why shouldn't they tell Y1 they can't go to the toilet Offred. I guess you have never tried to teach a class that are continually skipping off to mes about in the loo

Offred Mon 13-May-13 21:28:52

I am aware she needs to learn about this grey stuff. She may never though. I am always flummoxed by being asked for one thing and being expected to know it isn't what's required. Some people never learn.

It still doesn't mean that the tech's initial wording was fine or that the teacher's interpretation of events - dd should know not to listen to tech, is fine. It is obviously a stupid plan to give mixed messages and to tell y1 they aren't allowed to have a wee.

I am less upset now though after this thread, it obviously is making me more likely to be upset because of all the other things added together. Dd is needing some WA support in school over contact with her dad ATM too so I am a bit sensitive about her anyway. Objectively though I still don't think the school handled it well and I'll probably suck it up but remember it and keep it in mind for explaining to dd.

Some of you have been real flying off the handle picky witches on this thread though.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 21:29:33

Mrz - because young children holding their wee results in bladder and kidney infections.

LadyRainicorn Mon 13-May-13 21:29:55

Well I can't believe I read that the op's daughter should just learn to stand up to being bullied.

And my dd (of roughly the same age) may of believed she wasn't too ask to go, and she certainly would have taken 'you should have known to have asked' as being blamed.

Op, I can see that you thought your dd was adequately dressed so didn't bring extra when it was needed but tbh, I wouldn't expect a school to connect the dots. Banging on about prompt return of the knickers would have wound me up though!

I think other posters who say there's bigger problems than this are right. Their pastoral care doesn't seem to be very good for your daughter. If she's being bullied, are you holding them to their bullying policies or are they blaming your dd for bringing it on herself?

mrz Mon 13-May-13 21:33:23

As people have pointed out no one would stop a child who is desperate for the loo from going if they asked!

Offred Mon 13-May-13 21:36:28

Lady - they have a "well this happens to all kids" attitude but they have been good at communication and I have had good meetings with the teacher and head of infants, this teacher this year has allowed things which have reduced dd's tantrums like having a feelings book and sometimes bringing a teddy, the teacher last year thought she should just get on with it. She is much better and more settled this year. I realise though that there is only so much they can do, mostly it happens at lunch. She gets called fat and ugly and told no-one wants to play with her. It has helped to give her come backs like "I know you are but what am I?" And "that's nasty, when you say that I don't want to be your friend" and the pretending to be a zombie when they say everyone who is friends with her is a zombie.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 21:38:34

No-one would mrz but dd doesn't know that. Clearly. Otherwise she wouldn't have wee'd herself! It is bad that she thinks they'd rather she wee'd herself than asked. It is bad they haven't identified that a y1 class might take "you are not allowed to go to the toilet" literally and either try to hold it or wee themselves (both are bad).

LackaDAISYcal Mon 13-May-13 21:43:50

OP it reads that you are more upset about the clothing issue than anything else and people are just responding to this.

I don't think anyone is being a "flying off the handle picky witch"; you have had a lot of support and a lot of advice to not confuse this issue with the bigger issues going on, which is the overall pastoral care of the school and how this is impacting on your DD. Get those sorted and move on.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 21:48:40

There has been a lot of misreading which I have spent posts trying to correct which gives that impression. If it was about the pe kit the post would be titled "dd sent home in pe kit"...

There's been some support, mostly witches tbh, witches with an agenda to slap me down for saying something they have a bee in their bonnet about even though it isn't even what I meant.

teacherwith2kids Mon 13-May-13 22:00:29

DS interprets everything absolutely literally (ASD traits).

In Year 3, they were told that they were no longer allowed to go to the toilet except at breaks.

He wet himself, simly through nerves - he was so scared that he wouldn't be allowed to go that he was desperately nervus, which as anyone knows is bad for the bladder control.

Ditto Year 4.

Ditto Year 5.

In each year, I went in, reminded them that DS takes everything literally, and arranged for them to tell him privately that the rule for HIM was that he could go to the toilet whenever he needed to. So he never needed to...but each year the next teacher insisted on saying the same thing

I am forever grateful to his Year 6 teacher, who simply said 'In Year 6, there is no need for rules about going to the toilet. You know when it is appropriate and when it is not. However, messing around in the toilet is not allowed.'

Her rule - that addressed what was really the problem while not preventing anyone from going to the toilet - is the one that enabled DS to make it through the whole year in the happy knowledge that he would never, evr wet himself. The fact that his bedwetting also stopped at pretty much the same time seems likely to be no coincidence.

AlienAttack Mon 13-May-13 22:00:57

I don't understand, OP. You asked for opinions. I honestly don't see any evidence of "witches with an agenda" on here. I see people empathising with your broader concerns around the school but suggesting this specific issue is not a sensible way into that conversation. Is that ok to say or does that make me a "witch with an agenda"?

dangly131 Mon 13-May-13 22:02:29

Good job she doesn't go to a school near me...the boys wear shorts right into senior school. They have to wear them in all weather, not just half an hour in the hail. Being cold for a short while will do her no harm.

Offred Mon 13-May-13 22:17:05

Alien - I asked what I should do, not for an opinion about whether dd was alright with bare legs.

Yep, some people been sympathetic. Some people have been pretty aggressive. Considering I said in the OP I was upset, I felt some were a bit over-aggressive and arsey mainly because the posts were not worded in a polite and reasonable way like you have tried to do with yours.

Anyway, it has helped posting, just think it's a good thing I'm not a particularly fragile person!

LackaDAISYcal Mon 13-May-13 22:20:50

I assume your witches comment is aimed at me <amongst others>, but I can assure you that I have no agenda whatsoever.

Meh. It's all just words on a screen.

You know what you have to do to resolve today's issues, in themselves not too major, but together with the previous bullying and uncaring atitude from the school have amounted to what must be a pretty stressful time for both you and DD. The bullying needs to be addressed first and foremost. Your DD needs protecting from it and the school have a duty of care to her to ensure that this is done. If, inspite of you trying to resolve it you still feel she isn't being well looked after, if I were you I would would be doing a strongly worded letter, but straight to the governors, never mind the headteacher.

I hope your DD is OK

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why didn't she have a change of clothes (not p.e. clothes) with her? At my dcs' school they are all (and by all I mean everyone in the school regardless of age) expected to have a spare set of clothes in case they either have a toilet accident or get wet/muddy outside. Do other schools not do this? Would it possibly help your dd OP if she had a separate gym bag with spare clothing in as a just in case?

simpson Mon 13-May-13 22:44:37

I also think there is more to this than just what this thread is about.

If the school had otherwise had been fine, then there might not be an issue but because there are other issues going on, it makes this issue seem worse iyswim.

(Sorry about the over use of the word issue grin)

Offred Mon 13-May-13 22:46:11

No, they don't do that. But i will now send some with both big dc or keep some in my trike as it is a good idea. Generally the school are very precious in that they don't let them outside if it is muddy or cold or rainy so they don't get dirty in school and they don't seem to have many toilet accidents. It was partly what was annoying about the lesser pe kit issue because they normally have an ongoing hysteria about weather and children being outside in it.

simpson Mon 13-May-13 22:57:27

In fairness, my DC school do not expect a spare set of clothes either...

Ah right. Ours is a village school in the Highlands and if the school were going to be precious about the children getting wet and dirty outside then they'd never actually go outside grin

I do think it's a good idea though to keep a change about. My ds (who granted has asd which does contribute to this) is very often in his spare clothes at pick up (and occasionally his 2nd spares- I send 2 sets as I feel it necessary for him, but don't do this for dd1) and it really does make a difference that he has his own clothes as I never have to wash and return plus they fit him and as he has sensory issues with normal school trousers he wear fleece lined joggers. It never occurred to me that other schools wouldn't have the same idea.

cloudpuff Tue 14-May-13 08:33:04

Is the demanding an apology comment aimed at my post clam ?

I didnt demand an apology I simply told her class teacher that dd had not just stood and pissed herself, that she didnt put her hand up because the Judo instructer had told nobody to raise their hands while he was talking and that she was upset at getting wrong for not asking.

The teacher spoke to the Judo dude and found out that that is what happened and teacher apologised to dd and then the instructer did when he taught dd next. I didnt demand anything.

Sorry if I misread.

CheesyPoofs Tue 14-May-13 14:38:21

My Year 1 DD has wet herself on the way home from school before, and had to walk home in wet clothes.

When I've asked why she said the teacher told her she wasn't allowed to go to the loo during class.

I was a bit annoyed at first BUT on further investigation I found out that the teacher in fact told them they should use the loo at break and lunchtimes to avoid needing it during class time.

And DD being DD didn't want to 'waste her playtime' (her words!) by going to the loo, so kept it in ALL DAY hmm

I think children get enough breaks in the day (2 break times and lunch time). In theory they shouldn't have to go more than 1.5 hours without a loo break.

I had words with DD and told her she must use the loo at break time EVEN if she didn't really need it that much. I do think children this age need telling that - as it's not obvious to them, and they do tend to wait until the last minute.

mrz Tue 14-May-13 17:26:02

"Why would dd ask to go when she had been told they weren't allowed to go? "

because she knew she was desperate

learnandsay Tue 14-May-13 17:31:17

By that time it would probably have been too late anyway.

learnandsay Tue 14-May-13 17:32:11

Telling infants that they can't go to the loo is a recipe for disasters of all horrible kinds.

mrz Tue 14-May-13 17:37:51

is that statement based on your vast professional experience learnandsay

learnandsay Tue 14-May-13 17:43:31

Yup, I reckon knowing that if you don't go to the loo when you need to you wee yourself takes a degree in physics.

Hulababy Tue 14-May-13 17:51:14

I am sorry your little girl had an accident and got cold on the way home.

Take heart from the fact that it is not rare for 6yo in Y1 to have accidents on occasions at school.

Sadly schools do not have a ready supply of spare clothes, especially in larger sizes. They rely on donations from parents. Often these spare clothes are not returned either. This is why schools remind parents to return them asap and why they often resort to PE kits.

The getting cold thing - well, tbh, this is a bit of a mix of both imo. School obviously thought she'd be fine. You didn't take waterproofs either despite knowing it was hailing. Whilst it would be ideal if you'd been told I am sure your DD will be ok. If it wasn't so wet to warrant waterproofs over tights then I am sure cold legs, whilst not pleasant, will be forgotten quickly.

We do often ask children to try not to go to the toilet in lesson time, especially during the carpet time, when the beginning/end of lessons occur. But we also do encourage not leaving the class unless an emergency at other times too. I think many parents don't really realise how disrupting it can be when a series of children decide they need to visit the toilet, one after the other, when a lesson is taking place. It disturbs the other children's learning, as well as the child involved. It is also a well known distraction technique too.

We do make sure children know they can go in emergencies - this is not reiterated every single lesson I admit, but it is the general rule. It would appear that your DD was not aware that she would be able to go in an emergency. That is bad planning/instructions by the person giving the message out, I agree. Was this an unusual situation and not something that normally happens?

I am sorry to hear that your DD is suffering at school and being bullied. I suspect this fact is probably making this incident seem far worse to you than it was for your DD at the time. That is understandable.

Have you spoken to your DD to reiterate that she MUST always ask if she is desperate, even if the general rule is that they should not go? If not, I would do this now. And then tbh I'd leave it now. You say your DD is not bothered by it any longer. I'd follow her lead in this. If she was still upset then maybe I'd follow it further.

teacherwith2kids Tue 14-May-13 17:52:24

Mrz, but IME there is a significant minority of children who are sufficiently 'bound by rules' that being told that they can't go to the loo means exactly that - they can't, even if they are desperate.

I am the parent of one such child and have taught others. Why should it be obvious to a child, as it may be to an adult, that SOME school rules are meant to be obeyed, and SOME can be broken 'if you are desperate'? Many children's minds just don't work like that IME.

mrz Tue 14-May-13 17:56:29

As a teacher aren't you aware of the children in your class teacherwith2kids and isn't your child's teacher aware that your child needs rules explained?

mrz Tue 14-May-13 17:58:19

I'm very impressed that given you have never had any professional experience you are consider yourself to have vast amounts learnandsay

learnandsay Tue 14-May-13 17:58:22

What's the point of having a rule which isn't what it says?

You can't go to the loo means you can.

teacherwith2kids Tue 14-May-13 17:58:45

Yes, of course - but I don't make blanket rules about going to the toilet as you have said you do, BECAUSE I know that those children exist. It seems strange (to me) to make a blanket rule and then have to go around thinking about which children I have to change the rule for. I just do it slightly differently - same outcome, but without the same upfront statement 'this is the rule'.

learnandsay Tue 14-May-13 17:59:52

You don't need experience of teaching to know that is you don't go to the loo when you need to you wet yourself. Nor do you need it to know not to tell children stupid things like: you can't go to the loo.

Hulababy Tue 14-May-13 18:03:26

Because if we say - yes, go to the toilet when you want - well, it is a recipe for a distrupted lesson, in general experience anyway.
Instead - you set the expectation that you go to the toilet in the break times and lunch time and you avoid going in class time. However - everyone might have an emergency - and obviously the teacher deals with this as and when it arises. Some children you just know from experience if it is an emergency or a distraction for example.

This is even more of an issue in my classroom as we are in a cabin away from the main building. Children have to go in pairs to the toilet as it means crossing the playground unsupervised. So - every time one child wants to go - they have to disturb another child's learning too.

Hulababy Tue 14-May-13 18:04:31

Our children know the rules and the exceptions - it is pointed out to them at times, and especially at the start of each year.

learnandsay Tue 14-May-13 18:06:57

In this case it seems it was the technician, not a teacher, who set the rule and from what we seem to be being told although there are no quotes, he seems to have said: you can't go to the loo, or words to that effect.

That is a recipe for a disaster.

teacherwith2kids Tue 14-May-13 18:08:12

Exactly! I have positive approaches about when children MUST go to the toilet, and I have arrangements that prevent timewasting in the toilets or going with another child to cause trouble. I also have general things about class culture and approach that deal with politeness and consideration to the teacher and other learners - covering all kinds of potential disruption from talking and nudging all the way through to walking around the classroom or out of it to the toilet.

What I don't do is say 'you are not allowed to go to the toilet', as then I have to 'unsay' it for a group of children and frankly I find it a lot easier never to have to make the rule in the first place, as a rule that has to be borken on a regular basis just seems silly to me in an environment where we want rules to be kept....

mrz Tue 14-May-13 18:12:54

You make it sound like the 11th commandment "Thou shall not pee during school hours" (which of course only applies to teachers )

adoptmama Tue 14-May-13 18:49:31

I'm sorry your little girl had an accident. My own DD1 is the same age and I would share your pain on her behalf if I were in your shoes. I have a very - very!! - clear memory of my knicker elastic breaking at about age 8 and my pants ending up round my ankles as I ran across the playground! Not my fondest memory!

However I am really not sure what you expect the school to do beyond what they have done and I think your emotions are making your over react. Your DD was not refused permission to go to the toilet - she did not ask to go and had an accident. Perhaps she didn't realise how much she needed. It is not uncommon at this age and children in Year 1 are certainly asked often enough to got at the appropriate times. I wouldn't expect the school to call me if a similar thing happened as frankly I think 'least said, soonest mended' and for them to call you would make your DD think it was a big deal when it isn't. My own DD was being quite scathing recently over a class mate who wet himself and who she thought 'should have known he needed to go' so I used it as a moment to teach her a little empathy! If your DD isn't bothered, try not to project your own sense of unhappiness that this thing happened to her, but just let her know it is perfectly normal at this age. If she is upset by the reaction of others - and as my own DD has shown, empathy and kindness are not always the first reaction of a 6 year old - then speak to the teacher and ask if she can find a way to let everyone know it is unkind to laugh at other people for things they cannot help.

And yes, it meant she was not perhaps as warmly dressed as she could have been going home, but really I do not think you can blame the school because if you had waterproof trousers and coat for her it really wouldn't have mattered much what she was wearing underneath for the cycle home.

I think you are understandably upset your DD had an accident and mortified for her that others laughed. That is perfectly normal. But I think expecting more from the school than they did is unreasonable in the circumstances. If they had refused her permission to go, then I would agree you need more from them than you got. But what exactly do you think they need to do now. Apologise - for what? Why is it wrong of them to remind you to bring the clothes back that they leant her? No tights or socks - ok, but schools do not have an unlimited supply of spare clothes, you haven't left any changes for her and were quite happy for her to cycle despite the weather, without bringing in extra, warm clothes or watherproofs yourself for the journey home. The schools job is to educate your child, not kit her out or plan her journey home. She wet her pants, not her school jumper, coat etc. So at the most they took off her pants, trousers/skirt and tights/socks and gave her t-shirt (if she was wearing a tunic) shorts and dry shoes. If the weather was so bad I would expect to take wellies, coat etc into school for my child and waterproof trousers if it was hailing/raining. A cold journey home may be unpleasant but - since you choose to cycle - it is hardly the responsibility of the school to sort it out. You could always get a taxi. Sorry, I expect that is all going to be quite annoying for you to read but I don't think the school have done anything wrong from what you have said.

teacherwith2kids Tue 14-May-13 18:50:41

Mrz, for DS it had as much power as if it HAD been given to Moses on tablets of stone. He treated all school rules with the same absolutism!

mrz Tue 14-May-13 18:53:58

I don't think I have ever said it is a rule teacherwith ...

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:03:19

Good lord people really could do with actually reading.

Dd was not upset. I am not mortified.

I was upset because of their attitude towards her/it not because she had an accident.

We have no option but to cycle actually you can't just get a taxi at school pick up time they have to be booked in advance especially when you have four children. Plus what would we do with the trike and two bikes? Wow, judgemental!

I was pissed off about the shorts because they are so precious about letting them go outside and so preening about us cycling everyday that it felt like they were punishing dd.

Also re the clothes. Children of dd's age don't have accidents in school at her school. If she had been in her uniform she would not have got cold because she hasn't previously, she did get cold this time. What do you think I should have done been psychic and known they'd changed her into her pe kit? Why couldn't they have called to ask me to bring tights/trousers?

What I expected the school to do is simply say sorry for telling the class they weren't allowed to go and talk to the tech and explain how she could have expressed herself better.

Dd believed they intended her to wee herself rather than ask because she had been told they weren't allowed.

Of course I have now explained that she should ask or simply just go rather than wee herself but this is no good if school do not reinforce which is another thing I expect them to do. Basically not give mixed messages, explain when mixed messages have been given to the giver that it isn't to be done and make sure dd knows she must wee.

Of course I would have returned the pants, I think it is v. Rude to be irritated with me about my inability to guarantee I would be able to do that by first thing the next morning.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:05:44

"The rules" is exactly what dd said she thought she was following. Probably because the tech told the class they were not allowed to wee.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:06:40

She is utterly fine today btw. I would have forgotten about it too by now but you lot are still feeling personally affronted.

mrz Tue 14-May-13 19:12:41

except it wasn't a rule Offred ...

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:14:08

Was it not? Oh right that's ok then... hmm

mrz Tue 14-May-13 19:16:45

I'm glad you have realised

teacherwith2kids Tue 14-May-13 19:20:55

I am a little baffled by the difference between 'children are not normally allowed to go to the toilet' and 'it not being a rule'. As a child, I would have been baffled too - and I am not quite as literally minded as DS, who would definitely have interpreted 'not being allowed to go by the adult in the classroom' as 'the rule is that I am not allowed to go'.

adoptmama Tue 14-May-13 19:23:27

wow I don't think I was being judgemental in suggesting you get a taxi. And fortunately I did learn to read. It was helpful for me in getting qualified up my arse to become a teacher. Heaven forbid however that I have no bloody idea what town you live in and the arrangements of the local cab hires! How unreasonable that it be suggested you - the parent - are responsible for ensuring that your child has clothes suitable for cycling in hail. You are the one who said the weather changed dramatically - tights alone would not have kept her warm and dry anyway; it is not unfair to suggest you should have taken proper waterproofs in for her. No, I don't expect you to be psychic and know they changed her into her pe kit, but I would expect you to take more than a raincoat to school once you saw what the weather was doing. I fully accept it was probably terribly unpleasant for her to go on a bike in the hail in only shorts. It also seems apparent that you will not accept the fault for this lies anywhere than with the school. Whilst they may 'preen' themselves on the fact that you cycle to school - doubtful and more likely commented upon to make your DD feel special - when you have dozens of children to look after it is not unreasonable that your journey home was not at the top of their minds all day.

Nothing you have said about the school saying your DD should have asked to go is 'punishing' your DD. The school didn't tell your DD she couldn't go to the toilet. She has lots of opportunities in the day to go. I am sure that - in all the other weeks and months she has been in the school - she has seen and heard others ask for, and be given, permission, to go to the toilet during class. She has probably asked and been given herself. It is not the schools fault either that your DD thinks the school intended she should wet herself rather than ask to go. And frankly, having taught thousands of children over the years, unless your DD has a particular learning difficulty like ASD which makes her take things very literally, it would not be normal for a 6 year old to think in that way.

Your child wet herself. Whether you want to accept it or not it IS perfectly normal in children of that age. Why would you continue to argue it is not? Your child had a perfectly normal age appropriate childhood occurance. It was no-ones fault. Often children of this age do not even realise they can need to go until it is too late, as they are so caught up in what is going on around them. You seem determined to find fault with the school and. IMO, you are over reacting in every way to what happened.

Galena Tue 14-May-13 19:24:21

This morning it was sunny, she therefore didn't take her waterproofs. This afternoon it was hailing. You didn't take her waterproofs because she would have been fine in thick tights which would have quickly become wet and cold. She didn't have her tights on because this morning (SATs are in the morning, so it must have been this morning that the incident happened) she wet herself. Why has she not got tracksuit bottoms in her PE kit?

No matter. That is not what you are upset about. You are upset that she was told off for not asking to go to the toilet. You also mention that once it happened, and some children laughed, she then acted like a zombie and made the children laugh more? Maybe that was why the teacher was a bit short with her? Maybe the teacher saw that she was acting the fool and wondered whether the wetting herself was done more for attention than accidentally (Trust me, I've had it happen, even in Y3).

You tell us you aren't upset about the clothes - that we are simply getting hung upon them. However, you wanted them to phone you specifically to tell you that she needed different clothes. They probably didn't think about it because the weather was warm and sunny when she changed and they probably didn't think about it once the weather changed. You also said you don't always pick her up, so maybe they assumed somebody else might be picking her up and didn't realise she would be cycling.

You obviously have an issue with the school. If this is the case, then you need to have a reasonable discussion first with the the teacher, and if that is not successful then with the head. Do not go in wittering about DD wetting herself - this isn't the issue you have. The issue you have is that you feel the school is not caring about DD's feelings. Of course, they may counter that they are looking after a number of children and cannot always be aware of every change of emotion of your child. I know when I was teaching, I tried to keep my eye on all the children and how they were feeling, but many are very good at hiding their feelings and only letting it out when they get home. I may be a great teacher, but I'm not a mind reader. If a child doesn't tell me there's a problem, I can't deal with it.

Sorry this is long, but hopefully you'll read it and realise how much you are overreacting over this?

mrz Tue 14-May-13 19:27:13

"'children are not normally allowed to go to the toilet'" does the normally not tell you that they are allowed to go if necessary teacherwith?

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:36:21

Yes they did tell her she couldn't go, three of them separately said that the tech had told the class they weren't allowed to go.

I felt them not calling me and asking me to bring something was them punishing dd for the accident because there is no reason why they couldn't have done that when there were two TAs, one teacher, one tech and two receptionists who could have called and dd's class is small (20). Her clothes would have been fine if they didn't change them and I know this because I have cycled with her in these circs before.

If you don't know about other arrangements why judgy pants with the "you don't have to cycle".

What I am learning from this thread is that actually a lot of teachers are really, really petty.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:38:52

She would be cycling whoever picked her up. Just not with me.

I am bothered by their attitude to the whole thing not what happened. I do think they could have called to ask me to bring trousers. Track suit bottoms are not allowed in the PE kit. They allow track suit bottoms in winter terms for walking to school but not in summer because of cloakroom space and not in the pe kit.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:40:47

I haven't ever wittered about her wetting herself. I asked them to explain their side of what happened. They explained. They have dd a stern warning about how she "should have asked". I am not satisfied with that as a response for the reasons I have detailed previously.

Galena Tue 14-May-13 19:47:28

You are so hung up on the fact that 'there were two TAs, one teacher, one tech and two receptionists who could have called' but actually, assuming the weather changed at around 2pm, one assumes that:
The teacher, and both TAs were in class, educating children
The receptionists probably weren't aware of the situation
It really isn't the tech's job to phone parents about wet knickers

Out of interest, is it a state school or a private school? I only wonder because of the staffing... If a state school, then it's likely at least one of the TAs is for a statemented child, as most state schools don't have 2 full-time TAs in a primary classroom. Also the 2 receptionists probably are not just full-time receptionists. We had one part time receptionist and one who split her time between receptionist and bursar. We also didn't have a full time IT tech. And we had 90 children per year group, not 20.

Galena Tue 14-May-13 19:48:23

So they explained and then told her how to avoid the problem in future?

adoptmama Tue 14-May-13 19:48:34

Actually I don't think it is the teachers who come across as petty.

You seem determined to see insults - both by the school and by posters - where none are intended.

You are the one throwing rather immature comments like 'judgy pants' around at people who have done nothing that offer a different perspective on events, and disagree with your somewhat emotional interpretation of everything.

FullOfChoc Tue 14-May-13 19:58:20

I do feel very sorry for your DD. She needs to make sure she goes to the loo before school and at breaktimes. To actually wet herself she must have been holding on for a long time. The reality is if 30 children were going to the loo willy nilly all lesson not much work would get done. Loads of children ask to go to the loo because they don't want to do maths / spellings tests/ because their friend has just gone etc. The lesson is only an hour and 15 minutes long so if she's just been to the loo she should be able to wait for next break.

She is not the only one to have done this and won't be the last. I hope she's okay. I assume she's year 1 or 2 and I think the children will forget all about it by tomorrow.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:59:17

It is a state school but voluntary aided.

People keep wilfully misreading. I am not expecting them to call me and tell me about dd having an accident, I am expecting them to call because they needed me to bring something from home. They would have managed it if dd had not brought her lunchbox or her glasses or something else necessary.

People keep attributing things to me that I have not said or done and did not think. People seen intent on changing the situation to suit their judgements. Like I said yesterday it is a good job I am not particularly sensitive. I won't apologise for coming across emotional because yesterday I was as this had been the last in a long line of things with the school and dd. Not sure why having feelings (me or dd) should personally affront teachers but it seems to be a theme.

loopydoo Wed 15-May-13 12:22:10

You could suggest the Next school newsletter asks for some old outgrown clothes/uniform sent in from parents to use for spares. Or schools have always done that so there's always a good selection of different sizes etc. sometimes they specifically ask for swimming costumes/tights/pants so they have what they need.

I don't think you are being over sensitive at all. My Ds was told in yr one to wait to go to the toilet so I went in and explained/told his teacher that schools are not allowed to refuse/restrict children toilet access. I diverted her to the Eric.org site which has some great info for parents and schools, in particular about the side effects of withholding facilities from children. Might be worth a look....

loopydoo Wed 15-May-13 12:23:16

And yes, they could have easily have called you and asked you to pop some clean clothes in.

CinnabarRed Wed 15-May-13 12:45:26

If only she'd had her judgy pants with her, she'd have been much warmer....

wink

Offred Wed 15-May-13 12:55:33

ha ha ha! Indeed!

thanks for that loopy. I will have a look and those are good suggestions.

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